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Interview - Market Wards allow profitsFollow

#1 Dec 06 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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In the latest interview
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/31857/GDC_China_Square_Enixs_Tanaka_Details_Potential_Fixes_For_Beleaguered_MMO.php

Tanaka says that they design market wards to allow sellers more opportunity to make a profit.
#2 Dec 06 2010 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I thought you meant "make profits for SE by selling ways to attempt to compensate for a poorly designed market system at $1/month"

EDIT: Commentary on article:


Quote:
However, the company saw a downside -- since all players on all servers and in all regions knew the "right" prices for items, this increased deflation. This encouraged the developers to take a different tact with Final Fantasy XIV.


I still don't see how:

1) Knowing what an item you're selling is worth so you don't sell too low and rip yourself off
2) Knowing what an item you're buying is worth so you don't buy too high and rip yourself off

...is a bad thing.

Quote:
While Tanaka says that the company was aware that the system, which has players hire NPCs to sell their goods, would create an "inconvenience" for players, the team chose this direction to "avoid some of the disadvantages of Final Fantasy XI's system; players can make some profit out of this deal."

Unfortunately, this "inconvenience" means that players cannot search for a specific item easily and must engage with a huge number of NPCs.


Inconvenience is an understatement. It goes back to my whole "We designed a car with square shaped wheels because we know that criminals can use cars to escape police. Of course there is the inconvenience that cars are practically undrivable now.

Quote:
Tanaka's slide during his presentation said that this system was developed because it "makes it difficult for a single market rate to become established, providing the seller with more opportunity to turn a profit."


For a courteous player who wants to increase their profit margins, this can be a good thing. For an unscrupulous one, this provides an opening to take advantage of people who don't know what an item is worth to ***** people over. How do you know whether $15 for a gallon of milk is a good deal if after looking for half an hour, you can't find anyone else selling it?

Quote:
However, the slide went on to imply that the company may completely backpedal on its new in-game selling system. "We wish to continue observing the current in game market trends before deciding which method, [auction house or NPC market], is better," it said.


I'm glad to hear that they're at least CONSIDERING that the current system might not be this spectacular pile of awesome that they thought it would be and that they're willing to start making some changes.

Edited, Dec 6th 2010 9:57pm by Mikhalia
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#3 Dec 06 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hold the **** on, if SE implements an item search feature, then the market ward system will be functionally similar to an auction house in that there will be an established price for most items. Except it would still be tedious as all **** to buy or sell an item.

The best system would be adding BOTH AH and Bazaars in game like what FFXI and Aion have; they're not mutually exclusive.

SE can be such boneheads sometimes.

Also that comment about working with chinese developers is really off putting for some reason.
#4 Dec 06 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
Hold the @#%^ on, if SE implements an item search feature, then the market ward system will be functionally similar to an auction house in that there will be an established price for most items. Except it would still be tedious as all **** to buy or sell an item.

The best system would be adding BOTH AH and Bazaars in game like what FFXI and Aion have; they're not mutually exclusive.

SE can be such boneheads sometimes.

Also that comment about working with chinese developers is really off putting for some reason.


i can see a market ward search working where it says
"yes that item is here, for this much, in this ward, by this player" but it wont tell you where that player is in said ward, youd still have to find him

and that kind of feature would really make people wanna use the correct wards, since finding 1 person in battlecraft after that would be annoying whereas itd be easier if you were 1 of 30 or so retainers in the proper ward....
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#5 Dec 06 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Quote:
However, the company saw a downside -- since all players on all servers and in all regions knew the "right" prices for items, this increased deflation. This encouraged the developers to take a different tact with Final Fantasy XIV.


I still don't see how:

1) Knowing what an item you're selling is worth so you don't sell too low and rip yourself off
2) Knowing what an item you're buying is worth so you don't buy too high and rip yourself off

...is a bad thing.


I think they're thinking that the fluctuations would be a few percentage points of the average. If an item's worth 100k, then perhaps someone may sell it for 95k in Gridania, but 105k in Limsa. If there was a global AH, then everyone will be selling at 100k. Not saying that definitely won't happen, but it's possible that's what they were thinking.
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#6 Dec 06 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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The only way they'll make market wards viable is to basically turn them into an auction house, meaning that you make all your purchases from a single NPC and where you can see what each bazaar is selling what item for what price. Any less than that would still make it highly dysfunctional as a primary method of trading items.
#7 Dec 06 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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One key problem with FFXI auction was how you viewed prices on items. It wasn't individual but the last price paid. Sure alot of items balanced out but it was annoying getting undercut or when RMT secretly tries to control the market.

Having said that the convience > everything negative.
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#8 Dec 06 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
that the current system might not be this spectacular pile of awesome that they thought it would be
Edited, Dec 6th 2010 9:57pm by Mikhalia


lol oh its a pile of something
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#9 Dec 06 2010 at 9:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Just goes to show ya, SE still doesn't listen to player feedback. One of the top complaints about the game from the start of closed beta all the way up until today was the lack of an auction house, and their response is that they're MAYBE going to put one in.
#10 Dec 06 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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dyvidd wrote:
One key problem with FFXI auction was how you viewed prices on items. It wasn't individual but the last price paid. Sure alot of items balanced out but it was annoying getting undercut or when RMT secretly tries to control the market.

Having said that the convience > everything negative.


Dude I don't think SE even knows auction houses that function differently from FFXI's auction house are even possible.
#11 Dec 06 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Default
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they dont research wtf theyre making, so of course they have no idea how auction houses in other games work.

These are the people making the game. They don't know past the basics (and even then, they cant get exp right)
#12 Dec 06 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder whether I spent half of my playing time searching in
vain for an item in the retainer dungeons or just one third.

If they invented the retainer system to curb RMT - congratulations.
You eliminated RMT by eliminating their market. The playerbase.
#13 Dec 06 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
I wonder whether I spent half of my playing time searching in
vain for an item in the retainer dungeons or just one third.

If they invented the retainer system to curb RMT - congratulations.
You eliminated RMT by eliminating their market. The playerbase.


The ultimate irony is that only large, well organized groups will be able to do anything with this system. Namely, RMT and end game linkshells.
#14 Dec 06 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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*IF* they are adamant about retaining their retainers,

- Let me place buying offers for things I don't have (the ****! that's why I want to buy them, right?!)
- Let me search for who sells what. I'd be happy even if no price list is provided in the search box.
- Let me search for who buys and wants to have repaired what.
- If you don't want to spoil our fun exploring, let me search only for items I once upon a time possessed
myself; so nobody will be able to search for a +3 sword of ultimate doom and check out its stats/price
unless he/she once owned one. Should slow down the RMT a bit.

#15 Dec 06 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
i can see a market ward search working where it says
"yes that item is here, for this much, in this ward, by this player" but it wont tell you where that player is in said ward, youd still have to find him

and that kind of feature would really make people wanna use the correct wards, since finding 1 person in battlecraft after that would be annoying whereas itd be easier if you were 1 of 30 or so retainers in the proper ward....


Yes, something like this.
I've become pretty easy to please, I guess.
#16 Dec 06 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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The best thing in this article is that the game is under evaluation for Chinese market. Failing that evaluation is going to hurt. Wada can dismiss magazine reviews all he likes but he is going to answer for that particular review before the shareholders. "Haters gunna hate", "other games sucked at launch too", "go back to WoW!" and all other defense tactics we have observed are not going to play that well in the board room. Heads will roll but hopefully Tanaka will be able to finish his "observations" before he is fired.
#17 Dec 06 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Decent
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HachiLihachi wrote:
The best thing in this article is that the game is under evaluation for Chinese market. Failing that evaluation is going to hurt. Wada can dismiss magazine reviews all he likes but he is going to answer for that particular review before the shareholders. "Haters gunna hate", "other games sucked at launch too", "go back to WoW!" and all other defense tactics we have observed are not going to play that well in the board room. Heads will roll but hopefully Tanaka will be able to finish his "observations" before he is fired.



Oh god I really hope that Tanaka and whoever was in charge of releasing the game this early get the boot. FFXI only got good when this dev team moved to FFXIV. It's not a concidence that FFXIV also is terrible with the same dev team.
#18 Dec 06 2010 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, hes completely right. Prices last time I actually logged in were pretty high considering the supply I was seeing of alot of items. The players actually selling stuff were making way more than they would have been worth if supply and demand were actually estimable.

Thinking this is a good thing, is just adorable.. I cannot think of a more condescending way to put it. It hurts buyers who are paying too much. It hurts sellers thinking that items are actually worth what they are selling for, who then buy mats to make more of them which will likely not sell. I'd say whoever is selling mats to crafters is the guy ahead here, but in all likely hood he's going to face the wrath of the crafter who got stuck with too many tunics or aktons, and is now charging more for repairs and his next round of goods.

Things work best when they cost what they are supposed to. You seriously can't think that making crafters full on classes, and so necessary to the game, isn't going to flood the market with goods driving their prices down?
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#19 Dec 06 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'd be willing to donate a million gil for there to be an AH at this point - **** profit.
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#20 Dec 06 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Deflation occurred in FFXI in very large part due to the inability to see what other people were selling their goods for. Instead of a marginal undercut to entice players to buy your stuff first, players frequently undercut far more than was necessary in order to try and get a quick sale. Do that enough to skew the sales history and you've got deflation.

Don't get me wrong...deflation occurs in other MMOs as well. This happens when supply outstrips demand. It's normal. It's to be expected. Savvy players adjust to it and either roll with the punches or find something else to sell. What this tends to do is put the "big" profit on items with materials that are not easy to come by as well as on consumables where demand remains relatively high. It works. That's all we need to know.

There are things that SE can learn from FFXI both in terms of what works and what doesn't. When it comes down to what didn't work, I kind of wish they would take a look around at other games instead of jumping to conclusions and trying to reinvent their own dysfunctional wheels.
#21 Dec 06 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Default
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I, fot one, agree with SE on this. The current system permits me to profit from my craft (with some patience). I couldn't with an auction house. A search function, depending how it is implemented will probably have the same effect as an auction house on the market.
#22 Dec 07 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Decent
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HDurance wrote:
I, fot one, agree with SE on this. The current system permits me to profit from my craft (with some patience). I couldn't with an auction house. A search function, depending how it is implemented will probably have the same effect as an auction house on the market.


No it does not allow you profit anymore. People double check things on websites and KNOW if you overprice.
So what we have now is not that people buy once they found it after 2 hours of searching happy that they finally found the item. No, we have the very same effect as AH price duping we just do it very complicated using web browsers.
Welcome to the year 1995.
#23 Dec 07 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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The most amusing thing is that SE still thinks it was having an AH and the RMT in FFXI that caused deflation

In part the AH did, but it was simply because the best way to sell your item was to undercut everyone to make sure you had a high throughput of items. This is a self deflationary spiral.

Now as much as the feature was quiet amusing for picking up sushi for 11gil sometimes, it always lead to prices forever chipping lower as all crafters (not just RMT) were trying to push through as many sales as possible. In part this was caused by the 10 item sale limit and slowly became worse as the deflation kicked in you needed even larger throughput for it to be a viable system of making gil.

Now with that in hindsight a few minor changes to the FFXI system would allow a better experience. However the basics of the system still need to change. To keep a large number of crafters in business in a game you need diversity of objects and uniqueness of crafts to enable multiple markets of items players will always want.

And most importantly, every crafting class having some kind of consumable that is almost key to the game will ensure there is always a market for all crafters.

Right now I would add Repair kits as most likely that would help a lot of crafters have a steady turnover of items.
I would double the personal bazaar space as this would then open up the possibility of strategic placement selling overnight. I would quiet often fill myself with a consumable I was unloading and then park myself at a certain camp (the dunes for example) and sell some food or arrows, e.t.c where I couldnt be effected by the deflation.
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#24 Dec 07 2010 at 1:50 AM Rating: Good
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And don't forget: Force logouts after 30 minutes of inactivity.
Should turn Ul'dah into the ghost town we all want to see.
#25 Dec 07 2010 at 1:54 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
And don't forget: Force logouts after 30 minutes of inactivity.
Should turn Ul'dah into the ghost town we all want to see.


I've gotta say that I actually wouldn't mind that. For a game where everyone and their dog complains about lag and slow loading of models, yet so many of them still park their toon around the repair NPC in Ul'dah with their weapons drawn all hopping from foot to foot with their bazaars loaded down with marmot pelts and tin ore. It's sort of ridiculous. Add the search feature, increase the number of items your retainer can make available for sale, and force logouts for inactivity. It's not like anyone with a clue sees the massive cluster of people outside the Ul'dah adventurer's guild a signal that the game is packed with players.
#26 Dec 07 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Just goes to show ya, SE still doesn't listen to player feedback. One of the top complaints about the game from the start of closed beta all the way up until today was the lack of an auction house, and their response is that they're MAYBE going to put one in.


Because they may as well turn the Marketplace into an AH.

They should listen to the good feedback, but making a 180 and creating an AH from scratch would be absolutely dumb when the Marketplace can act as one just as well, with less development efforts.
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#27 Dec 07 2010 at 2:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I've gotta say that I actually wouldn't mind that.


Me not either, I was serious. The exception, I know. Rolanberry was fun, but
lagging my way to the guild and repair NPCs became old within the first three days.
#28 Dec 07 2010 at 2:48 AM Rating: Default
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they should just put an npc vendor in the market wards, which seels the relevent goods at a predetermined cost, as demand from the npc rises, ie more sales the price creeps up, and vica versa, the player hten has a benchmark of current demand and cost. Naturally the player will come in and undercut the npc by a percent to sell their goods, eventually the npc will start selling cheaper. But... every player will know which single npc to investigate for the current market rate.
#29 Dec 07 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
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to add to that, some sort of method of querying npc vendors remotely maybe?
#30 Dec 07 2010 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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Add an NPC vendor = may as well remove crafting.

There are good ideas, then there's the Marketplace, then there are really bad ideas...
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#31 Dec 07 2010 at 3:19 AM Rating: Good
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I really understand where they are trying to go with the market ward system but the inconvinience that comes from it's usage isn't a small one. Considering they would put up an auction house style search system that shows the prices in lowest first it would basically lead to the same as an auction house.

Only way I see that the idea of the system wouldn't break is that you'd only see the persons selling the searched item and their locations but not the prices. Which would just easen the pain of search a little. Will be interesting to see what they'll do, he didn't rule out the possibility of an overhaul to auction house :J
#32 Dec 07 2010 at 3:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I dread the day when i have to go to the counter at walmart(The only store left) and tell the guy everything I want. I'm sure it's coming. Why would I ask for that in a game?

That being said this system functions just like they say. I make a killing off the most mundane of items. Thank you SE for an economy that doesn't run itself. Also BOO SE for making an economy that the RMT can fully take advantage of ^^.Damned if ya do damned if ya don't ^^ Seriously tho, SE should quit trying to stop them. Every time a game takes a step to combat RMT the only loser is the normal player. RMT just finds a way around it. I'd take this over some plain jane AH any day if only the downies would stand in the right wards.
#33 Dec 07 2010 at 4:12 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I dread the day when i have to go to the counter at walmart(The only store left) and tell the guy everything I want. I'm sure it's coming. Why would I ask for that in a game?


To be honest, that wouldnt be great. However, if you was going into a store, what would you prefer to do, spend 2 hours, scanning every aisle to find what you are after, even if you were in a hurry or going to the counter and asking someone who hopefully would be knowledgable to point you in the right direction, saving you time and hassle.

Both options should be available, with the current implementation of the Market Wards, if you want a new weapon or item of some kind, you have to spend a long time trying to find it with the possiblity of it not being up for sale anyway, at least if a search option is available, you can find out within minutes if the item is or is not up for sale.

I know that a search option is coming and could possibly send the Market Wards down the route of an AH but what are most people going to want to do, spend hours searching numerous NPC's or use an available search option
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#34 Dec 07 2010 at 4:27 AM Rating: Good
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It is easy to earn gil in this game so whats the problem?
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#35 Dec 07 2010 at 5:04 AM Rating: Decent
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another annoyance i find
i sell mostly in woodcutters den in gridania
there are literally 5 other retainers in that area
its possible for me to go in and buy everything hte other vendors have, and put it on my retainer at inflated prices, monopoly anyone?
#36 Dec 07 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Good
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Aujade wrote:
HDurance wrote:
I, fot one, agree with SE on this. The current system permits me to profit from my craft (with some patience). I couldn't with an auction house. A search function, depending how it is implemented will probably have the same effect as an auction house on the market.


No it does not allow you profit anymore. People double check things on websites and KNOW if you overprice.


People don't check, else my stuff wouldn't sell. I'm usually setting my price at yg+10%, and stuff sells. So 2 theory : 1) people don't check. 2) people don't bother to find the other retainer since it is only for 10%.

In both case, I would lost my sell in an AH.
#37 Dec 07 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
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I am envisioning an EQ2 style market coming. You sell X number items through your retainer. You set the price which is visible by all...so its not a true auction like in FFXI. You will have npc sellers stationed throughout, designed as search functions where you can either buy directly on the spot(ed: for a larger fee) with items to be delivered to a mailbox or you can visit and buy from the selling retainer directly with a normal fee.

I really don't know why it can't be that simple.

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 10:33am by Simool
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#38 Dec 07 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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You want the current system to work there is a very easy and simple solution. Have 1-2 NPC's in each city that will search the wards for you for the item you are looking for. Once it hits the search and brings your results it will offer to call up up to five retainer npc's for you to look at their prices. If you do not like the prices you can summon up another 5 npc's to you and view their prices. Add the feature to look back at the other npc's if you need and that you cannot pull up more than say 20 npc's in a single search.

That will give people an idea of values and see variances between prices and go with item they want

this solves just about everything we are experiencing
its quick
easy
time efficient
does not make crafters irrelevant just competitive

also to avoid lag have a few spots within the city

if something like this wouldn't work than I truly believe there is no saving
any selling system with out hurting crafters or having market wards.

No system will be perfect, people will always find a way to take advantage of the system or any system to get ahead.
Its part of MMO culture that some players just want to have the best gear, most money, and every achievement. Some are honest players some aren't and them coupled with RMT they will do anything to get ahead.

The system I proposed is logical, easy to make work, would take very little development, and keep crafting and the market wards relevant. Its my opinion and I think its a fairly sane and logical idea.
#39 Dec 07 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Lonix wrote:
It is easy to earn gil in this game so whats the problem?


The problem is not that it's hard to earn gil, the problem is that it's hard to find a specific item you're looking to buy.

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 11:02am by Mikhalia
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#40 Dec 07 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Lonix wrote:
It is easy to earn gil in this game so whats the problem?


The problem is not that it's hard to earn gil, the problem is that it's hard to find a specific item you're looking to buy.


I went to Ul'dah in search of Silver Rings. With the goldsmith guild there, I thought it would be easy. Boy was I wrong. At the time, the jewelers ward had 8 retainers all selling copper or bronze. The battlecraft ward had way too many retainers to search through. I think after an hour, I walked away with one Silver Ring.
#41 Dec 07 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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I hadn't seen this posted anywhere, but I also struggled with how to best implement a market ingame. I understand the desire for efficiency and the AH does provide that, but there are problems with AH's too both the WoW Style (listed items with bidding minimums and buyouts) and FFXI style (blind auction w/price history). And as always, both favor those with a ton of time or tools to gauge, manipulate and corner the market. Combined with monopolizing supplies like RMT in FFXI and it really punishes the average player.

So in my wondering, I have thought there must be another approach that could be tried and here's the thought. Have a three pronged market. Keep the personal bazaars, keep the Market Wards with the retainers. Both allow for direct sale of items to the consumer, especially for end products, rare sellables and investment type transactions.

But add a 'WalMart-like interface' basically a programmed intermediary market that based on World supply offers prices to sellers and turns around and is a searchable market place to sell the items to buyers for a mark-up based on demand. That is the most 'true-to-life' way our modern markets works and that way SE can very easily gauge the market and availability of items/money in the economy and put in place adjustments in drop rates, mark-ups, sell prices, buy prices and leve rewards to perhaps manage the flow of goods and currency and maybe even shards/crystals in the economy.

It can provide an immediate sales market to suppliers (raw materials, gatherers, etc.) and based on supply the sell price can rise or fall as it relates to the purchasing draw of the items being sold. It provides a central and efficient but not fully player run buyers arena that again can raise or lower the markup based on demand. Maybe even make it like a big box store in that you can only sell and buy full stacks. If there are items that aren't selling then they could add recipes to make the items more in demand. I would think there are lots of possibilities.

To be sure, I have really just sorta outlined the idea and it needs some vetting so, is there merit in this...?
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#42 Dec 07 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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WOW, Aion and FFXI style auction houses may have minor problems, but they are objectively better than the market ward system.
#43 Dec 07 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:
WOW, Aion and FFXI style auction houses may have minor problems, but they are objectively better than the market ward system.



I agree one billion %
#44 Dec 07 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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I agree with SE on this. I have been saying this the entire time - they can make items searchable as long as they don't post a price history. The price history does nothing more than offer the buyer that comfortable feeling that they have not been "ripped off". But is it really so hard for a player to determine how much an item is worth to them?

I made all of my money buying, crafting and selling items in FFXI that were non AH items. I never had any "customers" ***** about the prices of Dyn Currency, Hakutaku Eyes and clusters, Osodes, etc...

Add a search feature that tells you how many items there are that you are looking for and where to find them. Then you go to that bazaar and check the price and purchase.

They need to make the buyer have to do a tiny bit of work in order to shop the best price. This allows patient sellers the opportunity to sell for a bit more profit and the bulk movers to undercut and sell higher volume without ruining the market for the more patient crafter. Its the same thing in real life. you pay a little higher price sometimes just because its convenient and you don't want to spend the effort shopping around to save a couple of bucks.

Personally I think with some tweaking this system can work brilliantly.
#45 Dec 07 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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DrymChaser wrote:
But add a 'WalMart-like interface' basically a programmed intermediary market that based on World supply offers prices to sellers and turns around and is a searchable market place to sell the items to buyers for a mark-up based on demand. That is the most 'true-to-life' way our modern markets works and that way SE can very easily gauge the market and availability of items/money in the economy and put in place adjustments in drop rates, mark-ups, sell prices, buy prices and leve rewards to perhaps manage the flow of goods and currency and maybe even shards/crystals in the economy.

It can provide an immediate sales market to suppliers (raw materials, gatherers, etc.) and based on supply the sell price can rise or fall as it relates to the purchasing draw of the items being sold. It provides a central and efficient but not fully player run buyers arena that again can raise or lower the markup based on demand. Maybe even make it like a big box store in that you can only sell and buy full stacks. If there are items that aren't selling then they could add recipes to make the items more in demand. I would think there are lots of possibilities.

To be sure, I have really just sorta outlined the idea and it needs some vetting so, is there merit in this...?


SE already has such data based on their yearly release of AH stat, they just don't adjust the drop rate. Also, RMT can only influence the market price in a short time; too short for SE to react. The result is more than often, a failure unless the market is adjusting. I once watched a player tried to buy all the Bison Steaks on the AH to increase its price. Unfortunately for him, I had 72 bison steaks for him to buy. He stopped buying at my 48th steak.

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 12:19pm by Oddwaffle
#46 Dec 07 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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DrymChaser wrote:
I hadn't seen this posted anywhere, but I also struggled with how to best implement a market ingame. I understand the desire for efficiency and the AH does provide that, but there are problems with AH's too both the WoW Style (listed items with bidding minimums and buyouts) and FFXI style (blind auction w/price history). And as always, both favor those with a ton of time or tools to gauge, manipulate and corner the market. Combined with monopolizing supplies like RMT in FFXI and it really punishes the average player.

So in my wondering, I have thought there must be another approach that could be tried and here's the thought. Have a three pronged market. Keep the personal bazaars, keep the Market Wards with the retainers. Both allow for direct sale of items to the consumer, especially for end products, rare sellables and investment type transactions.

But add a 'WalMart-like interface' basically a programmed intermediary market that based on World supply offers prices to sellers and turns around and is a searchable market place to sell the items to buyers for a mark-up based on demand. That is the most 'true-to-life' way our modern markets works and that way SE can very easily gauge the market and availability of items/money in the economy and put in place adjustments in drop rates, mark-ups, sell prices, buy prices and leve rewards to perhaps manage the flow of goods and currency and maybe even shards/crystals in the economy.

It can provide an immediate sales market to suppliers (raw materials, gatherers, etc.) and based on supply the sell price can rise or fall as it relates to the purchasing draw of the items being sold. It provides a central and efficient but not fully player run buyers arena that again can raise or lower the markup based on demand. Maybe even make it like a big box store in that you can only sell and buy full stacks. If there are items that aren't selling then they could add recipes to make the items more in demand. I would think there are lots of possibilities.

To be sure, I have really just sorta outlined the idea and it needs some vetting so, is there merit in this...?



I agree that bulk ingredients should be sold in a format that allows for quick search and transaction. Since the markups on bulk materials is small, most suppliers are more interested in keeping things moving and selling faster rather than letting it sit on their bazaar for days while they squeeze out the highest possible return.

My previous post should really apply to finished product and higher priced items- not bulk goods.
#47 Dec 07 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Good
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Mithsavvy wrote:
I agree with SE on this. I have been saying this the entire time - they can make items searchable as long as they don't post a price history. The price history does nothing more than offer the buyer that comfortable feeling that they have not been "ripped off". But is it really so hard for a player to determine how much an item is worth to them?

I made all of my money buying, crafting and selling items in FFXI that were non AH items. I never had any "customers" ***** about the prices of Dyn Currency, Hakutaku Eyes and clusters, Osodes, etc...

Add a search feature that tells you how many items there are that you are looking for and where to find them. Then you go to that bazaar and check the price and purchase.

They need to make the buyer have to do a tiny bit of work in order to shop the best price. This allows patient sellers the opportunity to sell for a bit more profit and the bulk movers to undercut and sell higher volume without ruining the market for the more patient crafter. Its the same thing in real life. you pay a little higher price sometimes just because its convenient and you don't want to spend the effort shopping around to save a couple of bucks.

Personally I think with some tweaking this system can work brilliantly.



and such a feature will also make people spread out more and use the wards correctly, the biggest things ive always looked at a search function as being able to do

If i saw 5 sellers for sheepskin, do i wanna hunt down the 2 in the battleward or tradeward, or the 1 in the tailors ward, you can guess which is more then likely getting my sale since i know where hes at and will be easier to find
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#48 Dec 07 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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As i read this article I'm just baffled. Of all the facets of an MMO to add complexity/strategy/timesinks/etc, SHOPPING is the worst imaginable.
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#49 Dec 07 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Mithsavvy wrote:

They need to make the buyer have to do a tiny bit of work in order to shop the best price. This allows patient sellers the opportunity to sell for a bit more profit and the bulk movers to undercut and sell higher volume without ruining the market for the more patient crafter. Its the same thing in real life. you pay a little higher price sometimes just because its convenient and you don't want to spend the effort shopping around to save a couple of bucks.


Focus should be less work in buying/selling and more time to be out fighting/crafting/exploring. If I went through the time and trouble of searching/finding a list of ingredients being sold by 12 retainers in 3 different cities...and having to travel to each city hunting down retainers(hoping the items are still there)...just does not sound like an enjoyable night. That does not add to the "fun" factor this game is currently lacking.

I do believe what you suggested will be close to what SE does when they add a search feature...but I don't think it will last. That's the type of process that will continue to turn away players who just want to have fun.

edit - saw you mentioned not for bulk items. That would help but I don't see SE trying to split things up like that. I have a feeling this process will be tweaked m tweaked for quite awahile.

Edited, Dec 7th 2010 12:49pm by Simool
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#50 Dec 07 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Focus should be less work in buying/selling


I personally think that as far as crafting and gathering, selling/marketing should also be a crucial part of their gameplay, not just the crafting and gathering processes.

That's not what happens with retainer based economy though. You aren't out there selling, the retainer is. There is very little gameplay in putting up your wares and waiting for them to sell.

If you could further affect the selling process, like with a retainer message or even a /sh macro you can set for it, or have some kind of visual cue to make the retainer more appealing and people to check on it, etc. That kind of management would be great, kinda like decorating your mog house but for the sake of marketing your products.
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#51 Dec 07 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
As i read this article I'm just baffled. Of all the facets of an MMO to add complexity/strategy/timesinks/etc, SHOPPING is the worst imaginable.


Yeah, FFXIV is less an MMORPG and more a shopping sim.
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