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EDITORIAL: Time for an Auction HouseFollow

#1 Dec 08 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
For as much as I've defended this game since launch day, there's one aspect of the game that I've refused to endorse -- the horrific market wards system. The lag, I could play through. The complex controls, I could figure those out. The lack of content will be addressed soon enough. But the market ward system? No thanks.

The wards may have had potential, but I believe it's time to deliver something that works, and auction houses work. In a speech this week, Hiromichi Tanaka indicated an auction house system may be a possibility. I think he needs to go one step further and confirm plans to make it happen.

Here's my editorial.

Discuss it here!
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#2 Dec 08 2010 at 10:05 PM Rating: Good
Seriously idk what SE was smoking when they released this game with no AH.

its like selling someone a Ferrari but excluding the engine.
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#3 Dec 08 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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In a keynote speech this week at GDC China, Final Fantasy XIV executive producer Hiromichi Tanaka explained the market wards were conceived to curb deflation experienced in Final Fantasy XI’s auction house system. The auction houses of FFXI allowed the viewing of price histories across various regions, prompting players to continually undercut prices in an attempt to sell their wares. On the other hand, the market ward system “makes it difficult for a single market rate to become established, providing the seller with more opportunity to turn a profit,” said a slide in Tanaka’s speech.

I didn't hear about this. Did he say that? That seems pretty wrongheaded.

For one thing, FFXI's economy had just as many periods of inflation as deflation. There were a lot of factors that contributed, and I think the AH was one of the smallest.

For another, the system didn't have to promote undercutting as much as it did. FFXI's AH was designed so the cheapest item always sold first. I think that's a pretty healthy way to run the economy, but if they really thought it was a problem they could just as easily have made items sell in listing order.

And another thing... there's a winner and a loser in every unfair transaction. Why have they decided sellers are more important than buyers? Every player is both at different times.

But most importantly... what kind of sick mind thinks that the solution to problems with the established price of items is to hide the price?

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 10:10pm by Borkachev
#4 Dec 08 2010 at 10:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Market Wards could work if every player used them properly. This will never happen, so for the first time since this games release, I also say an AH would be a good move.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 11:16pm by Proroc
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#5 Dec 08 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
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im pretty sure the point of market wards are to make the game more complex for full-time crafters.
If there was an AH meelee jobs could just quickly buy up high-demand items which would keep crafting prices high (ex. a mrd knows he will lvl leather in a month and buys leather when its cheap)
With market ward, only dedicated people with time will be able to get good deals. and those will usually be the crafters.

At least that seems to be what SE intended with the system.
#6 Dec 08 2010 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
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Warlord Proroc wrote:
Market Wards could work if every player used them properly. This will never happen, so for the first time since this games release, I also say an AH would be a good move.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 11:16pm by Proroc


Putting too much responsibility on the players to run things has turned out as expected. Many don't care enough to make it work, for others it's too time-consuming to bother, and still others who probably jack it up on purpose as a protest for an AH.

For me, I've had moments where it worked out beautifully. Being able to quickly purchase various mats I can't make myself, but needed for certain weaving gears. Quickly as in about the same time an AH would've taken. Then there's those other moments where the wards recently reset and there's a lack of retainers back up or I'm looking for low-level stuff that probably isn't super profitable so it's hard to find. It's during those moments that I think "***** this, gimme an AH!" I'm not having those moments extremely often or anything though. I also figure certain less profitable items I need may still be hard to find even with an AH. BUT, I wouldn't waste a really long time to find out there's none available.

So while I'm not a "AH or GTFO!" person, I wouldn't cry if retainers were replaced with something more convenient. Still I'd like to see what improvements they can do with it...



Edited, Dec 8th 2010 11:54pm by TwistedOwl
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#7 Dec 08 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Default
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more qq about the ah? LOL wow, if even a fraction of squeenix devs were half as persistant in regard to making a good game as you guys are about rehashing a system thats only quality is the promotion of solitide, laziness, rmt, cgf, and price scalping.... we would be doing much better than we are!!

that said, the game isnt just about omg im lvl 50 look at me!! im so uber tough online11! try incorporating shopping into your playtime, you just may walk away with a uber peice of gear for a good price before the other guy with the more primitive mindset who refused to "shop"

better yet, ever seen an AH that will let you pay 1/2 in cash and 1/2 in mats? I didnt think so. Now with no AH you can interact and "barter" with individuals should u choose.

All an ah promotes is undercutting, without one you can actually negotiate a deal with ssomeone or even wheel n deal your way to a fortune.

I know the VAST majority of you are either too young to remember or played wow as your first MMO BUT if you were fortunate enough to play eq1 then you probably agree with my vantage point. for those that did not, ask a group of EQ1 vets what their fondest memory/memories were/are.... they will 9/10 times tell you the "east commonlands tunnel" or the place where 100's of players instead of being out grinding nonstop to swing around their epeens to prove how much time they avoid showering, actually sold items, traded items, or waited huours on end for someone to pop up auctioning off that specific sword or peice of armor they were after.

course in the world of FF itemization isnt what it is elsewhere. in eq there are more off hand weapons than there are peices of equipment total in FF.

touche'
#8 Dec 08 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ever since the market wards went into operation, there have been many, many discussions about AH vs. no AH. I've read or listened to many if not all of them. Now, I've never liked the market wards in their current or previous incarnations and was rather indifferent about how to solve the problem. I would have been fine if they fixed it up and added a search or whatever. I would have been fine if they scrapped it and just added an AH. Either way it wouldn't have mattered to me. All that mattered was that I could find the items I was looking for in a relatively short amount of time, regardless of what the system turned out to be. However, as I've used the wards more and more, I have to say that I have changed my mind about it. This quote here from your editorial about sums it up for me:

Quote:
If the market wards are so important, find a way to make them work as a compliment to an auction house system, but not in place of it.


When I first heard about the market ward system, I had always envisioned it as the replacement for Rolanmart (the Rolanberry Fields bazaar) in XI. We still had our AH and it was fine, but we had Rolanmart for items that could not be sold on the AH or were simply too rare and/or expensive to put up for sale due to the tax. In XIV, instead of having players and their mules going afk out in the field, we would now have a nice old school bazaar themed area where we could place our retainers to do exactly what Rolanmart did in conjunction with the AH. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered that was not to be the case.

I was willing to give the wards a shot. I'm still willing to give it a shot with the implementation of the search function. However, the more and more I use the wards, the sloppier it feels. An AH just feels like a far more streamlined process. In light of that, I have changed my mind about this whole deal: I want an Auction House. I do not want it to outright replace the market wards, but rather have the wards be used as a supplement to the AH just as we used Rolanmart to supplement the AH in XI.
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#9 Dec 08 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
Any system of finding items for sale at this point makes sense. When people are using websites to promote and sell their items, there's a problem somewhere. Obviously what's been implemented isn't working, there's a reason why all my stuff sells 10x faster while posted on YG or XIVpro.

The only issue right now is the economy, gil seems worthless, and with the new implementation on crystal/shard usage, not to mention how easy it to obtain them, what the **** is worth anything anymore? Do we just need to make gil go up like everything else in this game? Instead of 100 per shard, charge 1,000? Either way, an AH would definitely start stabilizing many things, and start getting us consistent prices across the board.
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#10 Dec 08 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Should't this have been posted to the complaints department sticky?
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#11Frebaut, Posted: Dec 08 2010 at 10:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not sure why this is being brought up, seriously. SE is going to have a search function for the wards and a list of what items sold for kinda like they do in FFXI. So why do people keep complaining about no Auction House? SE is going to give you want you want. **** you have played this game for this long w/o one why keep ******** now about it when you'll get one in a week or two.
#12 Dec 08 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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For me, a market ward with search function is just a downgraded auction house.
You will eventually know the lowest price..just takes more time.
WHY not go for the BEST?

But yea Market wards allow trading other than using gil like crystals...
that why they are NOT mutually exclusive.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 8:57pm by timmyofalex
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#13 Dec 08 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Excellent
I agree, Timotheus, a ward system with search functions is like a downgraded auction house.

Rather than have a C- auction house, why not have an A+ auction house (a.k.a., an auction house) with a supplementary market ward system that's an A+ Rolanmart?

This game could have the best of both worlds if SE plays its cards right.
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#14 Dec 08 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I've always said its all about the Price History. Even in FFXI I had always wished they could get rid of the price history. It's not necessary at all.

That said, I see no harm in providing an AH for bulk consumables. This includes all the junk you get from killing mobs, fishing, mining, or whatever. W ehave to have ways to unload this stuff quickly and crafters don't need to spend hours trying to find ingredients.

For finished products I think a searchable Market Ward with NO PRICE HISTORY will work very well.

A combination of the two above systems seems like the right balance. Even FFXI had a ton of items that were non AH. They made for a very nice side market for items that you didn't typically buy in bulk.
#15 Dec 08 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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Amen to this editorial!
I sense a revolution in player base coming.
WE SHALL BARGE INTO SE OFFICE IN OUR THOUSANDS AND CODE THE **** THING FOR THEM!!!

(I like price history. What if they set a minimum price for which an item can be sold? )
#16 Dec 08 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm not sure why this is being brought up, seriously. SE is going to have a search function for the wards and a list of what items sold for kinda like they do in FFXI. So why do people keep complaining about no Auction House? SE is going to give you want you want. **** you have played this game for this long w/o one why keep ******** now about it when you'll get one in a week or two.


THE LULZ again.
We've been '******** about this since waaaaay before you snuffkin even set your foot into Eorzea.
And just to quote this tidbit of refined precognition again:

Quote:
why keep ******** now about it when you'll get one in a week or two


and again:

Quote:
why keep ******** now about it when you'll get one in a week or two


Where the **** did you get that glorious piece of information from? Do you live next to SE headquarters or do I? How come you know exactly what they are about to benevolently feed us this time? Every single one of the official reviews shreds the market ward aspect of FFXIV as outdated, stupid, lame, and a complete waste of time. Maybe they are simply... right?

Just because a select few crafting 1-1-1-1-1 @ 24/7 basement nerds love to strike "glorious deals" by browsing through every retainer for hours a day doesn't mean the rest of us, the sexually active, healthy and good-looking ones, have to waste hours of their precious lifes in a lightless dungeon to buy as much as a stupid silver ring that will serve them for one and a half levels. I want my games to be juicy, fascinating and story-driven. Not search-time driven.

I am ok with uber-nerds. They are a resilient breed that simply grows well in MMORPGs. Like cockroaches. Or psoriasis. But as soon as they start interfering with MY PERSONAL (and, as far as my estimate is correct, 95% of the original player population's - since by now, most of those have already left in disgust) fun, I say: get the f*ck out of my game and play EXCEL Online or SPSS Ultima or some similar perversion that fits your underdeveloped manhood. Stick your tycoon fantasies in the forge.
#17 Dec 09 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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klepp6761 wrote:
more qq about the ah? LOL wow, if even a fraction of squeenix devs were half as persistant in regard to making a good game as you guys are about rehashing a system thats only quality is the promotion of solitide, laziness, rmt, cgf, and price scalping.... we would be doing much better than we are!!

that said, the game isnt just about omg im lvl 50 look at me!! im so uber tough online11! try incorporating shopping into your playtime, you just may walk away with a uber peice of gear for a good price before the other guy with the more primitive mindset who refused to "shop"

better yet, ever seen an AH that will let you pay 1/2 in cash and 1/2 in mats? I didnt think so. Now with no AH you can interact and "barter" with individuals should u choose.

All an ah promotes is undercutting, without one you can actually negotiate a deal with ssomeone or even wheel n deal your way to a fortune.

I know the VAST majority of you are either too young to remember or played wow as your first MMO BUT if you were fortunate enough to play eq1 then you probably agree with my vantage point. for those that did not, ask a group of EQ1 vets what their fondest memory/memories were/are.... they will 9/10 times tell you the "east commonlands tunnel" or the place where 100's of players instead of being out grinding nonstop to swing around their epeens to prove how much time they avoid showering, actually sold items, traded items, or waited huours on end for someone to pop up auctioning off that specific sword or peice of armor they were after.

course in the world of FF itemization isnt what it is elsewhere. in eq there are more off hand weapons than there are peices of equipment total in FF.

touche'


Good lord man, the retainer / market ward system is terrible and an auction house would be an 10,000x improvement over what we have now. Instead of talking down to your fellow players and basically calling them dumb for not "lol bartering", try understanding why what we have now is so awful in comparison to a basic MMO auction house and why we complain.

Your perceived ivory tower of economic superiority is only in your head.
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#18 Dec 09 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Default
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Your perceived ivory tower of economic superiority is only in your head.

Well said. Stick your tycoon fantasies in the forge.
Chances are there's not enough manhood in your pants to follow the original quote's recommendation.

Quote:
ask a group of EQ1 vets what their fondest memory/memories were/are (...) or waited huours on end for someone to pop up auctioning off that specific sword or peice of armor they were after


A splendid idea! For those who miss NM camping, SE could introduce a system that allows people to camp Retainers!
Brilliant, Sir! The golden Banana is yours!

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 1:26am by Rinsui
#19 Dec 09 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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I feel the timing of the editorial is kind of bad. It would have been better after the December update. I'm not arguing that the current state of the Market Wards is good, but the impact would have been better if it was a "Yeah, you did make some changes, but it really didn't help" kind of reaction. Now it's more of a "I'm tired of waiting, put it in **** it" kind of reaction.
#20 Dec 09 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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klepp6761 wrote:
more qq about the ah? LOL wow, if even a fraction of squeenix devs were half as persistant in regard to making a good game as you guys are about rehashing a system thats only quality is the promotion of solitide, laziness, rmt, cgf, and price scalping.... we would be doing much better than we are!!

that said, the game isnt just about omg im lvl 50 look at me!! im so uber tough online11! try incorporating shopping into your playtime, you just may walk away with a uber peice of gear for a good price before the other guy with the more primitive mindset who refused to "shop"

better yet, ever seen an AH that will let you pay 1/2 in cash and 1/2 in mats? I didnt think so. Now with no AH you can interact and "barter" with individuals should u choose.

All an ah promotes is undercutting, without one you can actually negotiate a deal with ssomeone or even wheel n deal your way to a fortune.

I know the VAST majority of you are either too young to remember or played wow as your first MMO BUT if you were fortunate enough to play eq1 then you probably agree with my vantage point. for those that did not, ask a group of EQ1 vets what their fondest memory/memories were/are.... they will 9/10 times tell you the "east commonlands tunnel" or the place where 100's of players instead of being out grinding nonstop to swing around their epeens to prove how much time they avoid showering, actually sold items, traded items, or waited huours on end for someone to pop up auctioning off that specific sword or peice of armor they were after.

touche'



ah, but the key words there are hundreds of players trading items, FFXIV does not have players in the wards, they have retainers, you can't barter with a retainer, a retainer isn't crying thier wares so you can shoot them a tell, they just stand there oblivious to your existence. thats the difference between EQ and FFXI market system.

if FFXIV forced people to sell thier stuff instead of just offloading thier goods on a retainer and logging for the night it would be a fair comparison.



Edited, Dec 9th 2010 1:38am by Lafaiel

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 1:39am by Lafaiel
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#21 Dec 09 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Default
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The solution to your market ward troubles:

1) Have a searchable list of every item in the game that a player can scan through (quickly FFXI style) to pick an item they are looking for.

2) Once the player picks an item from the list every retainer within a certain radius (say town-size) will glow (or whatever - arrows anyone?) if they have an item in their inventory the player is looking for.

3) Added points if this feature is added to your map such that locations of retainers that carry items you need show up there.

BLAMMO! You now have an auction system that is decentralized giving sellers a bit more power as to prevent undercutting but not such that players can't find what they need in a given area.

Doesn't take much to think of simple solutions such as this. Unfortunately SE IMO is just ***'king lazy and incompetent. Someone please fire Tanaka.
#22 Dec 09 2010 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
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/sigh, editorial or not this is still another AH thread...

SE knows we want one badly and the reasons why. It is simply a matter of how much their planned projections on the future implementations to the game are overridden by the time passed with minimal gross gain before they give in to consumer demand.
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#23 Dec 09 2010 at 1:29 AM Rating: Good
I have to say that if they don't add an AH, I'm not going to play this game beyond the free trial.

I played XI for four years, I eagerly signed up for the beta of XIV, I've soldiered through the lag and the hangs and the clunky UI, I've gamely run around developing my character in good faith that SE will eventually fix this game and make it a worthwhile time investment. But this market system...oh boy. No.

There's another fellow here at the house, Gaile on these forums, who's waiting for a computer upgrade to get and play his own copy, which he's already said he won't play if I quit. We really wanted to play together, but I cannot play this game this way: I have to hang around town for days, rebooting my retainer, shuffling items into and out of bazaar, struggling to get enough items sold that I'll have space to go out leveling and farming again, enabling me to come back to town and level crafts again, creating items to babysit again until they sell. I'm NPCing stuff I have no business NPCing, just to get rid of it.

It's absolutely ridiculous, it's nonsense the sheer inconvenience right now. Please SE, put in an AH, put in a delivery system. If you make it easy to earn gil, the RMT won't have near as much power over this game as they had over XI: XIV is already better in that regard as far as item drops and ease of farming. There's so much that's salvageable here, but if you don't fix the market system it's going to destroy the game (and I'll have to quit, it isn't any fun camping my own retainer and selling nothing for days).

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 1:31am by Sioux
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#24 Dec 09 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not interested in an Action House at all. Sure I curse a lot when I can't find an item and have browsed too many bazaars, but the hunt is part of the fun. I'm so much more satified when I do find the stuff I need now!

The Action House system does make buying easy, but you don't get to make any profit anymore unless you got some rare item. I don't want the questleve system or heaven forbid: Selling items to a npc!, to be my only source of income. The vagueness of the current market is what allows profit.

I like that everyone is involved now in the ecomony, that prices aren't set in stone, that items are worthwhile to sell and that there isn't a huge gap between the average player, who can't make any money because his items aren't worth much and he's better off npcing them, and the proud few who got everywhere first, leveled everything first and for that reason have the rare items to sell that everyone wants (not that anyone can pay for them unless they save up for a year selling stuff to npc's)
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#25 Dec 09 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Retainer system with a simple search function will be fine.

And player should be MOVABLE while browsing bazaars.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:59am by shandavine
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#26 Dec 09 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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if they make a AH watch people ***** about inflation or they cant make any money from under cutting cuz there 1000 of the same item on sell, you know its gonna happen.
RMT will own all when it comes to making income like every other mmo.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:58am by mitmystria

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:59am by mitmystria
#27 Dec 09 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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Excellent Editorial Thayos, I have also seen links to your posts in Japanese sites (specially the one about the forum mood in the last months) looks like you are getting pretty popular, aren't ya?

I also think the AH need is imminent, the great potential/failed execution of the market wards have worn out most players tired, we need results and we all know the AH works (at least at some extent), it can be in this time of need the quickest, therefore the best and perhaps the only answer.

Besides I don't agree with Tanaka's statement:

Quote:
The auction houses of FFXI allowed the viewing of price histories across various regions, prompting players to continually undercut prices in an attempt to sell their wares.
Another example of the elephant in the room, what is he talking about? what provoke deflation in FFXI is the hidden item's prices combined with the policy of "cheapest sells first" that way under-cutters can gamble with the system and sell faster while still getting full return, since most people in the sake of speed will input something according with the price history, again because the actual price of the article is hidden!

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#28 Dec 09 2010 at 2:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Warlord Proroc wrote:
Market Wards could work if every player used them properly. This will never happen, so for the first time since this games release, I also say an AH would be a good move.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 11:16pm by Proroc


Markets Ward CAN'T work because no player CAN use them properly. Its simple - I have some armor pieces to sell, some food, and some silk and for the sake of this example, say this is all I'm selling. I would need to put my gear in the battlecraft ward, my food in the consumables ward (? dunno if it even exists) and my silk in the tradescraft ward. For one, with the annoying fact that I only have one retainer, I can't do this all at once so I would need to sell each at different times. Two, the fact that extra retainers (will) cost money only makes number one even more necessary as number two will put you back a few bucks. And lastly, even if I only want to sell silk, and I set up shop in the radescraft ward, I can get people shopping for smithing, armoury, woodworking, etc. etc. in there so there is a big problem right there as is (this stands for gear when you're looking for certain level armor). Now, you think about number one, two and three while I go do a number two.
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#29 Dec 09 2010 at 3:41 AM Rating: Good
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I personally think they need to add in something to help deter people from dumping there items/retainer in the wrong area. From 2% tax in correct area to 5% tax isn't enough. Thats hardly any real loss in gil for the lazy.

My idea is something DRAMASTIC. Say you have 10 items on your bazaar, none of them fitting into the battle craft ward. Instead of 5% tax, each item ups the tax by 5%, for a total of 55% cut to the sold amount. That'd deter someone huh? Now I know there would be issues with it if you had something like 7 DoW weapons and 3 DoM weapons and you put it into battlecraft ward since.. You have more DoW stuff then anything! Thats fine, and thats good. Say if you have 50% or more of the propper items for sale at the time of listing, then the taxes would stay at 5% for the other items.

#30 Dec 09 2010 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
RenalaLunari wrote:

I personally think they need to add in something to help deter people from dumping there items/retainer in the wrong area. From 2% tax in correct area to 5% tax isn't enough. Thats hardly any real loss in gil for the lazy.

My idea is something DRAMASTIC. Say you have 10 items on your bazaar, none of them fitting into the battle craft ward. Instead of 5% tax, each item ups the tax by 5%, for a total of 55% cut to the sold amount. That'd deter someone huh? Now I know there would be issues with it if you had something like 7 DoW weapons and 3 DoM weapons and you put it into battlecraft ward since.. You have more DoW stuff then anything! Thats fine, and thats good. Say if you have 50% or more of the propper items for sale at the time of listing, then the taxes would stay at 5% for the other items.



um im no math magician but if you up 5% by 5% isnt that 5.25%?cause 5% of 5% would be .25%

Edit also if you meant up it by another 5% thatd be 10% not 55%

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 4:52am by FinalFanXIV
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#31 Dec 09 2010 at 3:52 AM Rating: Default
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Never in my life have I ever felt like rating something down as much as I do now.

First off, Thayos, you are level 15. That's easily achievable in less than a single day. You have no right to be writing this editorial. I'm willing to bet you haven't even thought of alternatives, rather you're just jumping on the "OMG WE NEED AN AUCTION HOUSE" bandwagon.

I do not understand this weird obsession with people wanting to use the market wards. If you hate them, do not use them. There are alternatives to using the market wards.


First off, crafters WANT to sell things to people. Amazing, isn't it? Look up an item you want, and find a crafter to make it for you. Done. You don't even need to set food in the wards for this. They don't have a needed ingredient? Either it's stupidly rare/obscure such as Sunrise Tellin/beastkin blood, or you should just go find another crafter.

I have a feeling that the people that complain about the wards don't go to the right spot to look, or are looking for something unreasonable. Lets say the game just released, and you wanted a Hedgemole needle. You check every single ward, and there's absolutely no hedgemole needles. Is it the game's fault? No, it's because there is absolutely no supply of hedgemole needles. Auction house or not, that will not fix it

There's really no doubt that the wards are not up to standards. However, that doesn't mean "omg we need auction house now". A search function is fine, but until then, do you know what's even better? Talking to people. Try it sometime.
#32 Dec 09 2010 at 4:15 AM Rating: Decent
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There is simply no fun having to browse for hours retainers in the hope to find what we are looking for. As already said before, this is not a market simulation game. Moreover, people are blaming the AH for the undercut problem...
Maybe people are to be blamed for using the AH in this way. Finally, prices are mostly, like in the real world, base on supply and demand so if you have 100 of the same item for sale, you can expect the price to go down because people want to sell. Even if the demand is high, if the supply is higher, then the price will go down. Similarly, a high demand item with a low supply will see its price increase. If the supply for an item is as low as the demand for the said item, then the price will stay low. Where it gets wrong with an AH, is when prices are very high, people are complaining but STILL are buying.

So in the end, whatever the system, the economy is still falling under the same rule of supply and demand. Just make it easy to find what we are looking for, the prices will set themsleves.
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#33 Dec 09 2010 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
this is not a market simulation game


Oh but it is! \(O.o)/

More then half the classes are gatherers & crafters. How can those not be considered merchants who want to sell stuff. Market economy is very much a part of FFXIV!
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#34 Dec 09 2010 at 4:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Meowshi wrote:
Never in my life have I ever felt like rating something down as much as I do now.

First off, Thayos, you are level 15. That's easily achievable in less than a single day. You have no right to be writing this editorial. I'm willing to bet you haven't even thought of alternatives, rather you're just jumping on the "OMG WE NEED AN AUCTION HOUSE" bandwagon.

I do not understand this weird obsession with people wanting to use the market wards. If you hate them, do not use them. There are alternatives to using the market wards.


First off, crafters WANT to sell things to people. Amazing, isn't it? Look up an item you want, and find a crafter to make it for you. Done. You don't even need to set food in the wards for this. They don't have a needed ingredient? Either it's stupidly rare/obscure such as Sunrise Tellin/beastkin blood, or you should just go find another crafter.

I have a feeling that the people that complain about the wards don't go to the right spot to look, or are looking for something unreasonable. Lets say the game just released, and you wanted a Hedgemole needle. You check every single ward, and there's absolutely no hedgemole needles. Is it the game's fault? No, it's because there is absolutely no supply of hedgemole needles. Auction house or not, that will not fix it

There's really no doubt that the wards are not up to standards. However, that doesn't mean "omg we need auction house now". A search function is fine, but until then, do you know what's even better? Talking to people. Try it sometime.


Well, there ARE some problems about the wards that do go beyond opinion ("I don't like them") or ridiculous expectations (expecting items that no one's been farming to magically appear) however...

1) They crash occasionally. Which empties them out and resets the ward. You can tell they crashed at some point if the retainer can be summoned at the retainer bell, even though they were still showing as being in the ward. This causes the complaints about having to reset the retainers in the wards, sometimes multiple times in a day.

2) They are hard to navigate. You may know who you are looking for, but you have to step in the exact section of the floor to find the seller or it won't load up.

There are, of course, other issues as well, but since the update notes promise some kind of change it's pointless to harp about them.

I will say, however, that their proposed search system needs to be able to restrict the retainers that show on your screen to just the ones with the searched item while making the rest vanish, or it's still going to be incredibly irritating trying to get to them.
#35 Dec 09 2010 at 4:31 AM Rating: Good
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They didn't put an AH because it caused a lot of inflation/deflation on FFXI, FFXIAH made this worse and most importantly because they had to have people actually work on the economy. They stated many times they hated this, they would say they had meeting after meeting to sort out these kinds of economic issues...which took away from actual dev time for new content.

From my understanding this was one of the core "let's do it better this time" ideals they had in mind when they wanted to make 14 in the first place.
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#36 Dec 09 2010 at 4:36 AM Rating: Good
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Meowshi wrote:
Never in my life have I ever felt like rating something down as much as I do now.

First off, Thayos, you are level 15. That's easily achievable in less than a single day. You have no right to be writing this editorial. I'm willing to bet you haven't even thought of alternatives, rather you're just jumping on the "OMG WE NEED AN AUCTION HOUSE" bandwagon.

I do not understand this weird obsession with people wanting to use the market wards. If you hate them, do not use them. There are alternatives to using the market wards.


First off, crafters WANT to sell things to people. Amazing, isn't it? Look up an item you want, and find a crafter to make it for you. Done. You don't even need to set food in the wards for this. They don't have a needed ingredient? Either it's stupidly rare/obscure such as Sunrise Tellin/beastkin blood, or you should just go find another crafter.

I have a feeling that the people that complain about the wards don't go to the right spot to look, or are looking for something unreasonable. Lets say the game just released, and you wanted a Hedgemole needle. You check every single ward, and there's absolutely no hedgemole needles. Is it the game's fault? No, it's because there is absolutely no supply of hedgemole needles. Auction house or not, that will not fix it

There's really no doubt that the wards are not up to standards. However, that doesn't mean "omg we need auction house now". A search function is fine, but until then, do you know what's even better? Talking to people. Try it sometime.
Did you read the editorial? he is talking about the alternatives.

Besides... the game is struggling and it needs efficient game tools to retain(and hopefully attract) as much players as it can, the AH is simply more efficient to find what you need than the market wards.

If by your standards that makes it a "Bandwagon" I will:

A) Happily "jump in"
B) Try to remember this new and strange use for the word.

Additionally, have you seriously tried to find a crafer?, you know... regardless the fact that you will need 3 or 4 of them to put any decent item together, it's just plain hard to find them, yet convince them to make 4-5 synthesis to complete your item (that is if they don't fail some of them)

So the market wards are not standard... and that doesn't mean that we need an Auction House (according to you at least) and then the solution is... talk to people? seriously? how!? I'd love to know.

Ken

P.D. You know what I have grown tired about... about people asking me "Hey Ken, if you see XXX, buy as much as you can, I need that item and can't find it", ohh wait... maybe that's the intended market system after all >.>
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#37 Dec 09 2010 at 5:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Never in my life have I ever felt like rating something down as much as I do now.

First off, Thayos, you are level 15. That's easily achievable in less than a single day. You have no right to be writing this editorial. I'm willing to bet you haven't even thought of alternatives, rather you're just jumping on the "OMG WE NEED AN AUCTION HOUSE" bandwagon.

I do not understand this weird obsession with people wanting to use the market wards. If you hate them, do not use them. There are alternatives to using the market wards.


First off, crafters WANT to sell things to people. Amazing, isn't it? Look up an item you want, and find a crafter to make it for you. Done. You don't even need to set food in the wards for this. They don't have a needed ingredient? Either it's stupidly rare/obscure such as Sunrise Tellin/beastkin blood, or you should just go find another crafter.

I have a feeling that the people that complain about the wards don't go to the right spot to look, or are looking for something unreasonable. Lets say the game just released, and you wanted a Hedgemole needle. You check every single ward, and there's absolutely no hedgemole needles. Is it the game's fault? No, it's because there is absolutely no supply of hedgemole needles. Auction house or not, that will not fix it

There's really no doubt that the wards are not up to standards. However, that doesn't mean "omg we need auction house now". A search function is fine, but until then, do you know what's even better? Talking to people. Try it sometime.


Never in my life have I felt better rating something down as much as I do now. You don't get it, eh? If there was a AH, I wouldn't have wasted hours of my time to look for that stupid needle.
#38 Dec 09 2010 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
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Warlord Proroc wrote:
Market Wards could work if every player used them properly. This will never happen, so for the first time since this games release, I also say an AH would be a good move.

For clarification, could you explain how you think Market Wards could work if players used them properly?
Even if people only sold items in the correct wards, you would still have to go around laboriously checking everybody's retainer for that one thing you wanted, without knowing whether or not the item is even up for sale at all. If you are lucky enough to find it, you may be paying a grossly over inflated price for the items true value. As a seller, you cannot check for a market standard to correctly price your item, so you may underprice as a result.
Not to mention the fact that players will NEVER BE ABLE to only sell their wares in the correct ward. If I want to sell three pieces of armor and three stacks of random crafting mats, which ward do I go to? IMO it was a broken system before the game was ever released, which is why I’m surprised we have waited even this long for an AH, which is a proven tried and true system. FFXIV isn’t going to be a copy of XI just because it has an AH.
Rinsui wrote:
Never in my life have I felt better rating something down as much as I do now. You don't get it, eh? If there was a AH, I wouldn't have wasted hours of my time to look for that stupid needle.

This precisely the point. Most of us ARE social players, but there are still times when your friend the Blacksmith isnt online and you want to buy a sword. The market wards are supposed to be a facility to sell crafted items.
Quote:
I do not understand this weird obsession with people wanting to use the market wards. If you hate them, do not use them. There are alternatives to using the market wards.

We all agree that you can go talk to people and get them to craft an item IF you find someone who is willing to take the time out of their grind. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. Thats not the issue. This discussion is about the market ward system, which is broken. The player base is asking for change. Thats realy not a bad thing. Solutions to problems are NEVER "Meh there's another way." Nothing ever gets fixed like that. I dont like people who scream and rant about problems without constructive criticism, but a discussion like this can be productive.


Edited, Dec 9th 2010 6:55am by IzanagaAsura
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#39 Dec 09 2010 at 6:03 AM Rating: Good
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To spend days, even weeks searching for mats, is nuts. The market ward search only solves a little of the problem.
There are also bazaars of players that need a search feature as well. I can't imagine what the wards would be like with a full population server. Loading would take forever. It's not very efficient to do without an AH, especially when populations start filling up.

If SE is to truely have FFXIV apppeal to the casual gamer, they need to realize that casual gaming is all about efficient use of time. A casual gamer will not have the time to hunt down an item for days even weeks on end. That certain conviences need to exist, in order for casual gamers to play.
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#40 Dec 09 2010 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
Quote:
this is not a market simulation game


Oh but it is! \(O.o)/

More then half the classes are gatherers & crafters. How can those not be considered merchants who want to sell stuff. Market economy is very much a part of FFXIV!


Ok then I did not express myslef clearly :/
I totally agree with you on this (altough market economy is as important as in any other MMORPG where it's not a pain in the *** to find something if it's available) but then it should be made easy to people to do the buyer/seller transactions. Now, it feels like it's a game in itself to find any sort of item in the wards. It feels like a treasure hunt without initial hints. It is right now the opposite of casual friendly (who wants to spend the couple hours of playtime only trying to find an item that should only take a few minutes).

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#41 Dec 09 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Default
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I saw someone in the news one leave a message saying that the punishment should be put up for putting things in the wrong ward...

I can only disagree. You never punish the people for using the product wrong, you make the product work for them. Obviously if it's convoluted and confusing and you are trying to explain it to them you are doing it wrong. People always look for the easiest, simplest and quickest way to do things. If minor changes accomplish this that is what needs to be done.

I am just annoyed because they want to add a search function. This is an auction house, just a broken one. You will find peoples name, just like an auction house, prices of their wares, just like an auction house. The only difference is that you have to walk over and find them instead being able to buy it and either getting it right away or having it mailed to you.

I just feel they are trying way too hard to enforce a system that in the end no one really wants. Work with the people not against them, that is exactly what they are trying to do with this dumb... dumb system.
#42 Dec 09 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Posted in another thread, but this seems to be a place to revisit this idea to see if it has merit:
Quote:
I hadn't seen this posted anywhere, but I also struggled with how to best implement a market ingame. I understand the desire for efficiency and the AH does provide that, but there are problems with AH's too both the WoW Style (listed items with bidding minimums and buyouts) and FFXI style (blind auction w/price history). And as always, both favor those with a ton of time or tools to gauge, manipulate and corner the market. Combined with monopolizing supplies like RMT in FFXI and it really punishes the average player.

So in my wondering, I have thought there must be another approach that could be tried and here's the thought. Have a three pronged market. Keep the personal bazaars, keep the Market Wards with the retainers. Both allow for direct sale of items to the consumer, especially for end products, rare sellables and investment type transactions.

But add a 'WalMart-like interface' basically a programmed intermediary market that based on World supply offers prices to sellers and turns around and is a searchable market place to sell the items to buyers for a mark-up based on demand. That is the most 'true-to-life' way our modern markets works and that way SE can very easily gauge the market and availability of items/money in the economy and put in place adjustments in drop rates, mark-ups, sell prices, buy prices and leve rewards to perhaps manage the flow of goods and currency and maybe even shards/crystals in the economy.

It can provide an immediate sales market to suppliers (raw materials, gatherers, etc.) and based on supply the sell price can rise or fall as it relates to the purchasing draw of the items being sold. It provides a central and efficient but not fully player run buyers arena that again can raise or lower the markup based on demand. Maybe even make it like a big box store in that you can only sell and buy full stacks. If there are items that aren't selling then they could add recipes to make the items more in demand. I would think there are lots of possibilities.

To be sure, I have really just sorta outlined the idea and it needs some vetting so, is there merit in this...?

Not saying I oppose going with an AH, I just think it's boring as a solution and if SE is looking for something different then maybe this?
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#43 Dec 09 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:
For as much as I've defended this game since launch day, there's one aspect of the game that I've refused to endorse -- the horrific market wards system. The lag, I could play through. The complex controls, I could figure those out. The lack of content will be addressed soon enough. But the market ward system? No thanks.

The wards may have had potential, but I believe it's time to deliver something that works, and auction houses work. In a speech this week, Hiromichi Tanaka indicated an auction house system may be a possibility. I think he needs to go one step further and confirm plans to make it happen.

Here's my editorial.

Discuss it here!



Thayos sorry but for someone that makes his living from this game, you're a level 17 at your higher job? Is that too much work or you just don't play the game? Its strange to have someone talking about so many features of a game when he doesn't level enough to explore 10% of its areas. I understand that you don't need to be a high level to address many problems of the game but, still from a reader point of view, its hard to believe that someone at that game level do play the game since you were probably there at day 1.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:34am by MclarenTAGPorsche
#44 Dec 09 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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Would it help you if he faked his signature to be LV 50 in all classes
wearing only +3 equipment? The only important thing is the veracity of
the words, not the gown of the speaker.

P.S.: Another good proverb i just invented:
"You don't need a LV 50 nose to realize that crap stinks."

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:47am by Rinsui
#45 Dec 09 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Luckily, they've dealt with the previous issues...so yeah, it's about time for them to cave in and give us an auction house, or at the very least a centralized market ward search function. Sure, sometimes I love to just walk around and see all the funny/clever/retarded retainer names, but there's times when I need a new axe and I need it then at a decent price. Or at least the materials to make said axe...
#46 Dec 09 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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...or at least the knowledge whether such an axe exists on your server.
#47 Dec 09 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I've got some news for you guys, until SE has fully implemented their vision for the market wards and have seen it fail, there will be no AH. They aren't finished with the market wards, so they haven't failed yet.

From what I have read in interviews they mentioned an AH as a backup plan. Would you resort to your backup plan after not fully implementing your original plan? I think not.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:46am by Jefro420
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#48 Dec 09 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Like, when you are outmanned and standing right in the line of fire,
you don't retreat until all your men are dead (O.o)/ ?!
#49 Dec 09 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Like, when you are outmanned and standing right in the line of fire,
you don't retreat until all your men are dead (O.o)/ ?!



Yes.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 6:52pm by Hyanmen
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#50 Dec 09 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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I bow to superior logic and concede my defeat. (-。-)
#51 Dec 09 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Like, when you are outmanned and standing right in the line of fire,
you don't retreat until all your men are dead (O.o)/ ?!

I don't see it that way at all, I honestly believe that the market wards can work if the search feature they plan to implement in the next major patch is done correctly. In my eyes, all they need to do is make items easy to find. They could easily do so by allowing you to search for a particular item and flag the npc that has that item and tell you which ward that npc (or npcs) is in. All of which, from my understanding, is coming in the next patch. I do actually agree with the dev team on the fact that the market wards allow sellers to gain profits, which is something that could not be easily done in XI. Most of the time when selling items aside from farmed items, I lost money in that game. That is by no means true this time around.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:58am by Jefro420
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