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EDITORIAL: Time for an Auction HouseFollow

#52 Dec 09 2010 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Mithsavvy wrote:
I've always said its all about the Price History. Even in FFXI I had always wished they could get rid of the price history. It's not necessary at all.

That said, I see no harm in providing an AH for bulk consumables. This includes all the junk you get from killing mobs, fishing, mining, or whatever. W ehave to have ways to unload this stuff quickly and crafters don't need to spend hours trying to find ingredients.

For finished products I think a searchable Market Ward with NO PRICE HISTORY will work very well.

A combination of the two above systems seems like the right balance. Even FFXI had a ton of items that were non AH. They made for a very nice side market for items that you didn't typically buy in bulk.
Price history (a COMPLETE price history, not just the last ~12 sales) is what stabilizes the market. Without it, players and RMT are free to buy up limited supplies and gouge legitimate buyers by controlling the market and leaving no trace of what the previous price was. If anything, they need to keep a FULL AH history of all transactions.

EVE is a superior example of what an excellent market/auction system is. You can see detailed graphs of the last days, weeks, months, and years of a particular item globally, at that particular station, in that particular region... The more information the better protected and informed the buyer. That's what stops abuses of the market.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:01am by bsphil
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#53 Dec 09 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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In the back of my mind I thought that maybe the retainers were going to be just in the starting lands and the AH would be in Ishgard or something.

In any case an AH would exponentially increase commerce, and hence expose any economic problems at the outset. But it's drastically needed: legitimate farming and gathering can occur, things like alchemy and cooking could be viable, and people who wouldn't otherwise craft, would; as it would be easier to find mats and make stuff. Plus crafters would have a faster turn around on profits. An AH will make the market function as it should.

#54 Dec 09 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
Thayos wrote:
For as much as I've defended this game since launch day, there's one aspect of the game that I've refused to endorse -- the horrific market wards system. The lag, I could play through. The complex controls, I could figure those out. The lack of content will be addressed soon enough. But the market ward system? No thanks.

The wards may have had potential, but I believe it's time to deliver something that works, and auction houses work. In a speech this week, Hiromichi Tanaka indicated an auction house system may be a possibility. I think he needs to go one step further and confirm plans to make it happen.

Here's my editorial.

Discuss it here!



Thayos sorry but for someone that makes his living from this game, you're a level 17 at your higher job? Is that too much work or you just don't play the game? Its strange to have someone talking about so many features of a game when he doesn't level enough to explore 10% of its areas. I understand that you don't need to be a high level to address many problems of the game but, still from a reader point of view, its hard to believe that someone at that game level do play the game since you were probably there at day 1.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:34am by MclarenTAGPorsche


Wait, you think being a game forum admin is how he makes his living? lol
#55 Dec 09 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
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All I want them to do as far as AH goes is to keep the prices hidden. A full price history is a good addition, but only for the items that have sold, not the ones that are still selling.

That's what made XI's AH pretty good. Not perfect, but it definitely satisfied my needs.

Even then, they need to think up another fix for the crafter problem before implementing the system... if they don't somehow manage to keep both systems viable, with Marketplace functioning exactly how it is supposed to, making the crafters profit from it, and at the same time keeping the AH for the convenience of most buyers.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 7:06pm by Hyanmen
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#56 Dec 09 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
First off, Thayos, you are level 15. That's easily achievable in less than a single day. You have no right to be writing this editorial.


I have every right to post whatever I want, just as you do. Why do I need to be level 50 to have an opinion on the market wards? And who are you to criticize me or my playstyle? I applaud your tenacity for apparently logging in and grinding for 20 hours a day. Good for you. That's not fun for me, so I take my time and "grind" in small doses when I log in. I definitely respect your opinion about the auction house, but your opinion on the value of my time in game is completely worthless.
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#57 Dec 09 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Mithsavvy wrote:
I've always said its all about the Price History. Even in FFXI I had always wished they could get rid of the price history. It's not necessary at all.

That said, I see no harm in providing an AH for bulk consumables. This includes all the junk you get from killing mobs, fishing, mining, or whatever. W ehave to have ways to unload this stuff quickly and crafters don't need to spend hours trying to find ingredients.

For finished products I think a searchable Market Ward with NO PRICE HISTORY will work very well.

A combination of the two above systems seems like the right balance. Even FFXI had a ton of items that were non AH. They made for a very nice side market for items that you didn't typically buy in bulk.
Price history (a COMPLETE price history, not just the last ~12 sales) is what stabilizes the market. Without it, players and RMT are free to buy up limited supplies and gouge legitimate buyers by controlling the market and leaving no trace of what the previous price was. If anything, they need to keep a FULL AH history of all transactions.

EVE is a superior example of what an excellent market/auction system is. You can see detailed graphs of the last days, weeks, months, and years of a particular item globally, at that particular station, in that particular region... The more information the better protected and informed the buyer. That's what stops abuses of the market.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:01am by bsphil


Incorrect. That is the exact tool that assists abusers of the AH. All you need is the ability to see what other sellers are currently asking for their listed items. The past does not matter at all and should not influence buyers or sellers. When you shop for an ipod you don't care what it used to sell for. You just compare who has the least expensive ipod for sale right now. And if you are in a hurry to buy one, you don't even shop around you just buy from the first store you visit out of convenience.
#58 Dec 09 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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AH or a search feature that does not require me to click on retainers will do just fine for me. Maybe then I can find a new hat...my personal Holy Grail. I may even quit the game after I get a new hat as I am not sure their is anything harder left to do. j/k.

Anyways...I think the timing for the editorial is fine. Chances are we will have some sort of search feature to work with in the next couple weeks...but I have a feeling it will still divide the player base. SE will have to decide who they want to favor...crafters or DOW. This topic will not come close to dying after they implement something.
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#59 Dec 09 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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its like selling someone a Ferrari but excluding the engine.


Personally, I think it's more like selling someone a Ferrari engine in a Doge Dart.
#60 Dec 09 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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@Jefro
If you are happy with yet another pair of crutches...
As for me, after 3 months, I rediscovered the beauty of walking. Or driving.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 11:21am by Rinsui
#61 Dec 09 2010 at 10:18 AM Rating: Default
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Add an auction house that mirrors WOWs auction house and problem solved. Blizzard is known for working the kinks out of things like auction houses and such. Use the work they have done and copy it, its working great!
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#62 Dec 09 2010 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Add an auction house that mirrors WOWs auction house and problem solved.


I would say WoW's AH is not better than XI's AH. Showing the price of items is not a good thing.

Maybe more functionality? But no the actual concept of the AH.
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#63 Dec 09 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately, EvE online can not be used as a comparison to the FFXIV crafting/ward/auction house system, for ONE single reason.

In EvE there is turnover because items are destroyed upon death. This could be done in FFXIV by binding upon equip... but that's a different story.
#64 Dec 09 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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"Equipment is destroyed once durability hits 0, and you can't repair them."

/fixedgame.
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#65 Dec 09 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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...that would definitely drive some uncaucious nerds into suicide, you know...
#66 Dec 09 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mithsavvy wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Mithsavvy wrote:
I've always said its all about the Price History. Even in FFXI I had always wished they could get rid of the price history. It's not necessary at all.

That said, I see no harm in providing an AH for bulk consumables. This includes all the junk you get from killing mobs, fishing, mining, or whatever. W ehave to have ways to unload this stuff quickly and crafters don't need to spend hours trying to find ingredients.

For finished products I think a searchable Market Ward with NO PRICE HISTORY will work very well.

A combination of the two above systems seems like the right balance. Even FFXI had a ton of items that were non AH. They made for a very nice side market for items that you didn't typically buy in bulk.
Price history (a COMPLETE price history, not just the last ~12 sales) is what stabilizes the market. Without it, players and RMT are free to buy up limited supplies and gouge legitimate buyers by controlling the market and leaving no trace of what the previous price was. If anything, they need to keep a FULL AH history of all transactions.

EVE is a superior example of what an excellent market/auction system is. You can see detailed graphs of the last days, weeks, months, and years of a particular item globally, at that particular station, in that particular region... The more information the better protected and informed the buyer. That's what stops abuses of the market.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:01am by bsphil


Incorrect. That is the exact tool that assists abusers of the AH. All you need is the ability to see what other sellers are currently asking for their listed items. The past does not matter at all and should not influence buyers or sellers. When you shop for an ipod you don't care what it used to sell for. You just compare who has the least expensive ipod for sale right now. And if you are in a hurry to buy one, you don't even shop around you just buy from the first store you visit out of convenience.


Off topic:

Mithsavvy, your character looks like Technoviking. Smiley: nod

Screenshot
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#67 Dec 09 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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No Auction House is such a step back in MMOs. Like virtually every other genre of video games, MMOs have evolved over the last half a decade to a decade.

Being able to transfer items between characters and friends via a mail system is expected, in the same way VOIP is now expected for first person shooters. Having a market system where selling and buying items is fast and simple is expected, in the same way having the option for dedicated servers is expected for fast action games.

An iconic game from a decade ago NOT having a feature does not make it okay for a game today to not have that feature as well. How many of you would think that, if a strategy game was released that only allowed selecting 12 units at a time or didn't have tactical zoom, it would be a good strategy game?
#68 Dec 09 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Add an auction house that mirrors WOWs auction house and problem solved. Blizzard is known for working the kinks out of things like auction houses and such. Use the work they have done and copy it, its working great!

I've been playing the game since the first beta. Once I stopped complaining about it and came to terms with SE's vision of the system, I actually started to like where the wards are going. I honestly feel like all we need is a search and a way to flag the retainer that has the item, and to know which ward that retainer is in. From my understanding that's exactly what we are getting. My items sell just fine, my only complaint at this point is that I spend too much time there looking for weapons in particular. Even that is more a complaint about how people are using the system than about the system itself.


...anyway the point of my post above is that there isn't much point in complaining at this time because you're complaining about a system that's not even complete. When it is complete, some or even most of your complaints may be invalid. Have same patience.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 11:59am by Jefro420
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#69 Dec 09 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't like the market ward one bit. Yesterday I went there to find a brass spear and ended up with 1mil gil worth of swords :/
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#70 Dec 09 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
First off, Thayos, you are level 15. That's easily achievable in less than a single day. You have no right to be writing this editorial.


I have every right to post whatever I want, just as you do. Why do I need to be level 50 to have an opinion on the market wards? And who are you to criticize me or my playstyle? I applaud your tenacity for apparently logging in and grinding for 20 hours a day. Good for you. That's not fun for me, so I take my time and "grind" in small doses when I log in. I definitely respect your opinion about the auction house, but your opinion on the value of my time in game is completely worthless.


Well I guess it's true you could write whatever you want, just like I could. Only I get subdefaulted for posting stuff other people don't like, while you keep your nice excellent rating. I guess being in that position, people expect you to be an expert, ergo put some time into the game. Especially when you write stuff like "Players want an auction house. Not all of them, but probably most of them". And honestly if you can't find stuff in the ward when you're that low level, one has to wonder what you're looking for. You should easily be able to find the stuff that you want when there is an abundance of it. Just maybe not the cheapest one if you're not willing to spend the time.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 6:59pm by RedGalka
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#71 Dec 09 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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OneFatAngel wrote:
I don't like the market ward one bit. Yesterday I went there to find a brass spear and ended up with 1mil gil worth of swords :/

But with a search, you could have searched for the spear, seen that one was not available, and left. I fail to see how an AH would make that any easier than a simple search feature.
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#72 Dec 09 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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You uhm... Read to much into that.

Ok, say you put your retainer into battle ward with my theory/fix. You put 10 DoM items up which arn't the propper ward for those items. The tax, as it stands right now, is 5% for those items. Now, with my thing I say tack on another 5% tax per item, so 5% x10 + 5% base = 55% tax for those items.


NOW WAIT! If you had say 5-6 DoW items when you first put items onto your retainer, and then 4-5 DoM items, then the tax would retain being 5% for those DoM since the majority of your items are DoW and you just happen to have some other items. Thats common, and understandable.

Basically, its not 5% of 5%, its 5% added onto 5%. Thats what I say would deter people from putting items in the wrong wards.
#73 Dec 09 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly, if people actually HAVE to have an auction house, I would like to see it be according to what the retainers have on them. For those who want to search and browse, that's fine, but what if an auction house system was introduced and sells stuff according to what the retainers have on them? I believe I'd like to see this instead of a full fledged AH that will kill the market wards.

btw, there should be a ward for misc items like crystals and other odds and ends that don't really fit anywhere else in the markets. At least, that's been my experience.

Mo
#74 Dec 09 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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RenalaLunari wrote:
You uhm... Read to much into that.

Ok, say you put your retainer into battle ward with my theory/fix. You put 10 DoM items up which arn't the propper ward for those items. The tax, as it stands right now, is 5% for those items. Now, with my thing I say tack on another 5% tax per item, so 5% x10 + 5% base = 55% tax for those items.


NOW WAIT! If you had say 5-6 DoW items when you first put items onto your retainer, and then 4-5 DoM items, then the tax would retain being 5% for those DoM since the majority of your items are DoW and you just happen to have some other items. Thats common, and understandable.

Basically, its not 5% of 5%, its 5% added onto 5%. Thats what I say would deter people from putting items in the wrong wards.

While I agree that higher tax would be a deterrent, so would a search feature. After a search is implemented it no longer makes sense for everyone to try to get their retainer into the battlecraft ward because that's not necessarily the one people will go to first.

Also, people put their retainers there now because everyone needs weapons, and to find a weapon you need to click randomly on numerous retainers. They put their junk up for sale there in hopes that some random ******* who's looking for a weapon sees their retainer and needs the junk they are selling. The problem will be mostly solved once people realize that the search feature will flag the NPCs that have the item you want, thus negating the need to click on random retainers.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 12:22pm by Jefro420
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#75 Dec 09 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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If the search function for the retainers is done right, then that's all I would need. I think it should include:

  • Search all of the wards at once.
  • Group items into categories, and allow sorting by level, job, etc.
  • Price history isn't important.


If I could search for the items I want, and be able to find the one at the lowest price, that's all I want. As far as price history goes, you could see if anyone else is selling the same thing, and either decide there to undercut or not making price history unnecessary.

So RedGalka, count me as one of the players who doesn't necessarily want an auction house. Thayos' assumption is correct. Or is my level not high enough to warrant an opinion either?
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#76 Dec 09 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
If the search function for the retainers is done right, then that's all I would need. I think it should include:

  • Search all of the wards at once.
  • Group items into categories, and allow sorting by level, job, etc.
  • Price history isn't important.


to add to that, I think another feature is an absolute must, (SE stated it is a planned feature)

  • Ability to flag a retainer or multiple retainers that have the item you want.



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#77 Dec 09 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Like, when you are outmanned and standing right in the line of fire,
you don't retreat until all your men are dead (O.o)/ ?!

I don't see it that way at all, I honestly believe that the market wards can work if the search feature they plan to implement in the next major patch is done correctly. In my eyes, all they need to do is make items easy to find. They could easily do so by allowing you to search for a particular item and flag the npc that has that item and tell you which ward that npc (or npcs) is in. All of which, from my understanding, is coming in the next patch. I do actually agree with the dev team on the fact that the market wards allow sellers to gain profits, which is something that could not be easily done in XI. Most of the time when selling items aside from farmed items, I lost money in that game. That is by no means true this time around.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:58am by Jefro420



Forgive me if i'm wrong but how is that different from an Auction House then? The only difference is you have to physically walk over to someone and buy the item instead of being able to buy it in the neat organized window.

Unless of course you are saying you must go to them to find the price but then that adds in the whole unnecessary part like now of going around and finding the best price until you find one that is affordable. Then add on the fact you want to find multiple different items and it becomes a serious challange to buy anything.

Sorry but the market ward with a search sounds exactly to me like a broken auction house forcing you to spend more time to find things. Don't mistake me i am not saying we HAVE to have an auction house either but there needs to be a feasible fix and not a band-aid called search.

#78 Dec 09 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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I believe that a search function is all that we need, but right now, that isn't the main point I'm trying to get across. And I'm not foolish enough to argue with a bunch of people that disagree with me from the getgo.

What I'm more concerned about, yes, is Thayos' level and the fact that what he published is an editorial, not a normal post on the forums.

Is there anything stopping him from creating a post called, "Life at level 30+ sucks", even though he's not even close to it? Are there ANY safeguards preventing any random administrator from needlessly bashing the game and giving false information like that?

Editorials make the front page. Game devs read them, and this one makes faulty assumptions and lies, and is unnecessary bashing of the game (See: ANOTHER auction house topic?). For example, it states that "A search function could have been good if it was implimented at the start of the game", which means quite literally that, "Even if a search function is implimented now, it would not fix the wards", which is a controversial topic that you are using as a fact. By putting it in an editorial like this, you're basically telling everybody, "Hey, final fantasy sucks, we NEED an auction house" to game devs, random viewers, and basically anybody that uses your site, when it isn't true.

And "So many people stash their retainer in the battlecraft wards so search will be useless" is not a valid counterargument to that. You don't know how they will impliment search.

The devs have already said they will impliment a search function, quite soon actually (Within one to two weeks). If that doesn't work and the retainer functions are still broken, and it was a major topic on the forums with extremely high agreement, then yeah. Make the editorial. I'm feeling that this one was created way too early for its intended purpose.
#79 Dec 09 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
I'm ok going either way on the AH issue. The wards can be annoying but I usually have no issue with them, and at times an AH would make things easier for me personally. So, either way.

OneFatAngel wrote:
I don't like the market ward one bit. Yesterday I went there to find a brass spear and ended up with 1mil gil worth of swords :/


^ +1000 this. "Just looking for boots, just looking for boots, just looking for boots...ooh that's a nice hat..."

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Mithsavvy, your character looks like Technoviking.


I HAD burned that out of my memory but now it's back. Good lookin' out Wint :P
#80 Dec 09 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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boriss wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
Like, when you are outmanned and standing right in the line of fire,
you don't retreat until all your men are dead (O.o)/ ?!

I don't see it that way at all, I honestly believe that the market wards can work if the search feature they plan to implement in the next major patch is done correctly. In my eyes, all they need to do is make items easy to find. They could easily do so by allowing you to search for a particular item and flag the npc that has that item and tell you which ward that npc (or npcs) is in. All of which, from my understanding, is coming in the next patch. I do actually agree with the dev team on the fact that the market wards allow sellers to gain profits, which is something that could not be easily done in XI. Most of the time when selling items aside from farmed items, I lost money in that game. That is by no means true this time around.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:58am by Jefro420



Forgive me if i'm wrong but how is that different from an Auction House then? The only difference is you have to physically walk over to someone and buy the item instead of being able to buy it in the neat organized window.

Unless of course you are saying you must go to them to find the price but then that adds in the whole unnecessary part like now of going around and finding the best price until you find one that is affordable. Then add on the fact you want to find multiple different items and it becomes a serious challange to buy anything.

Sorry but the market ward with a search sounds exactly to me like a broken auction house forcing you to spend more time to find things. Don't mistake me i am not saying we HAVE to have an auction house either but there needs to be a feasible fix and not a band-aid called search.


It's very close to an AH, yes. I totally disagree that we need any sort of price history. I'm currently able to profit on the goods I'm selling because price history does not exist. I'm against it because of the constant undercutting that it would inevitably create.

Yes, it would take more time than an AH to find things, but far less time than it does now. That's all I want, honestly, is to not spent 30 minutes looking for a weapon and to be able to only spend 5 instead. I haven't had much trouble at all finding anything but weapons, I search in the correct wards, and if I don't find what I need I ask an LS mate. after doing those two things there hasn't been a single time that I didn't get the item I needed.
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#81 Dec 09 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why are you guys assuming that an editorial is taken as fact? An editorial is opinion. It's Thayos' opinion, and his only. It's intended to drive discussion. I would hope any game devs (and anyone else who reads it) would understand this.
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#82 Dec 09 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Meowshi wrote:
I believe that a search function is all that we need, but right now, that isn't the main point I'm trying to get across. And I'm not foolish enough to argue with a bunch of people that disagree with me from the getgo.

What I'm more concerned about, yes, is Thayos' level and the fact that what he published is an editorial, not a normal post on the forums.

Is there anything stopping him from creating a post called, "Life at level 30+ sucks", even though he's not even close to it? Are there ANY safeguards preventing any random administrator from needlessly bashing the game and giving false information like that?

Editorials make the front page. Game devs read them, and this one makes faulty assumptions and lies, and is unnecessary bashing of the game (See: ANOTHER auction house topic?). For example, it states that "A search function could have been good if it was implimented at the start of the game", which means quite literally that, "Even if a search function is implimented now, it would not fix the wards", which is a controversial topic that you are using as a fact. By putting it in an editorial like this, you're basically telling everybody, "Hey, final fantasy sucks, we NEED an auction house" to game devs, random viewers, and basically anybody that uses your site, when it isn't true.

And "So many people stash their retainer in the battlecraft wards so search will be useless" is not a valid counterargument to that. You don't know how they will impliment search.

The devs have already said they will impliment a search function, quite soon actually (Within one to two weeks). If that doesn't work and the retainer functions are still broken, and it was a major topic on the forums with extremely high agreement, then yeah. Make the editorial. I'm feeling that this one was created way too early for its intended purpose.

You hit the nail on the head with that post, thanks!
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#83 Dec 09 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Awesome job Thayos. Let's hope that this might be the push that SE needs to get the economy on track in FFXIV. I'm so glad that an admin wrote this up, because I feel its far more likely that SE will take this seriously when it is written thoughtfully by someone who moderates one of the larger forums for the game. Great work!
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#84 Dec 09 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jefro420 wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
I believe that a search function is all that we need, but right now, that isn't the main point I'm trying to get across. And I'm not foolish enough to argue with a bunch of people that disagree with me from the getgo.

What I'm more concerned about, yes, is Thayos' level and the fact that what he published is an editorial, not a normal post on the forums.

Is there anything stopping him from creating a post called, "Life at level 30+ sucks", even though he's not even close to it? Are there ANY safeguards preventing any random administrator from needlessly bashing the game and giving false information like that?

Editorials make the front page. Game devs read them, and this one makes faulty assumptions and lies, and is unnecessary bashing of the game (See: ANOTHER auction house topic?). For example, it states that "A search function could have been good if it was implimented at the start of the game", which means quite literally that, "Even if a search function is implimented now, it would not fix the wards", which is a controversial topic that you are using as a fact. By putting it in an editorial like this, you're basically telling everybody, "Hey, final fantasy sucks, we NEED an auction house" to game devs, random viewers, and basically anybody that uses your site, when it isn't true.

And "So many people stash their retainer in the battlecraft wards so search will be useless" is not a valid counterargument to that. You don't know how they will impliment search.

The devs have already said they will impliment a search function, quite soon actually (Within one to two weeks). If that doesn't work and the retainer functions are still broken, and it was a major topic on the forums with extremely high agreement, then yeah. Make the editorial. I'm feeling that this one was created way too early for its intended purpose.

You hit the nail on the head with that post, thanks!


ed·i·to·ri·al (d-tôr-l, -tr-)
n.
1. An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.

There is no reason he cannot express his views on a subject that the majority of players feel need addressed. Yes...there are a handful of players who feel the retainer system can work with a search function...but is SE really in any position to still "tinker" with something so blatantly wrong when they can go with something that will satisfy the majority of players and hopefully win back subscriptions? I don't think so.
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#85 Dec 09 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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Dear SE, please listen to the editorial and the countless many fans...give us our AH...or some sort of working economy. If you don't, my hubbie will just prolong playing this game for a while...then eventually cancel our accounts....and I don't want to stop playing yet...then you'll be down two subscriptions...plus God only knows how many more...KKTHNXBAI!
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#86 Dec 09 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Mithsavvy wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Mithsavvy wrote:
I've always said its all about the Price History. Even in FFXI I had always wished they could get rid of the price history. It's not necessary at all.

That said, I see no harm in providing an AH for bulk consumables. This includes all the junk you get from killing mobs, fishing, mining, or whatever. W ehave to have ways to unload this stuff quickly and crafters don't need to spend hours trying to find ingredients.

For finished products I think a searchable Market Ward with NO PRICE HISTORY will work very well.

A combination of the two above systems seems like the right balance. Even FFXI had a ton of items that were non AH. They made for a very nice side market for items that you didn't typically buy in bulk.
Price history (a COMPLETE price history, not just the last ~12 sales) is what stabilizes the market. Without it, players and RMT are free to buy up limited supplies and gouge legitimate buyers by controlling the market and leaving no trace of what the previous price was. If anything, they need to keep a FULL AH history of all transactions.

EVE is a superior example of what an excellent market/auction system is. You can see detailed graphs of the last days, weeks, months, and years of a particular item globally, at that particular station, in that particular region... The more information the better protected and informed the buyer. That's what stops abuses of the market.
Incorrect. That is the exact tool that assists abusers of the AH. All you need is the ability to see what other sellers are currently asking for their listed items. The past does not matter at all and should not influence buyers or sellers. When you shop for an ipod you don't care what it used to sell for. You just compare who has the least expensive ipod for sale right now. And if you are in a hurry to buy one, you don't even shop around you just buy from the first store you visit out of convenience.
How does the price history help manipulators? You can't gouge an item for 100k (for example) if all the buyers see that the regular price history is only 50k. It's when there's no price history at all that a seller is free to list an item for 100k. The market will be 100% driven by what's being currently sold. As soon as there aren't any of a particular item for sale, you can completely reset the price to whatever you want it to be. That's why a price history regulates the market to help find an equilibrium.

Chnmmr wrote:
Unfortunately, EvE online can not be used as a comparison to the FFXIV crafting/ward/auction house system, for ONE single reason.

In EvE there is turnover because items are destroyed upon death. This could be done in FFXIV by binding upon equip... but that's a different story.
How does that matter? It's a very well done and complete market system designed to make buying or selling something as easy as possible so that you aren't making a "game" out of trying to buy something you want. You can buy anything anywhere in the universe but you still have to travel to that station to pick it up, there is a shortcut to quickly and immediately sell off junk for instant (though smaller) profit, prices are very stable, etc.



Edited, Dec 9th 2010 12:38pm by bsphil
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#87 Dec 09 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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I think an AH for raw materials would be okay, but I like the market wards, and they should be kept for finished goods. They are working better now. If you haven't actually tried to use the wards, Thayos, how can you really write such an editorial?

I think you are looking at things too simplistically.

I think the wards will work a lot better once people have more retainers - partially because only being able to sell 10 things means people are only selling what they think they will make the absolute most money on. So stuff like garlic and pepper gets tossed to the npc. An AH actually won't solve that problem.

People's stuff is selling slowly right now - but in my case at least that is more because of inventory limits than because of market wards or something else. Once I have some more retainers I know I'll be making and buying a lot more low level gear. I am someone who likes to have the right gear for the right situation but I can't carry anymore right now.

As for people complaining about getting ripped off - I think it is a little ridiculous given how many people I see bragging that they have millions of gil. Paying 10K "too much" for something when you have 3 million gil is not a huge hairy deal. Especially if that 10K is going to a player who hasn't gotten on their feet yet (basically players that can't do R20 leves yet).

Making it so lower level characters are not continually raped by the economy is not a bad thing. I am sorry but if an AH means going back to what I experienced in XI where I would have to farm for a week to afford a black robe for my black mage so I could look credible in a party... no frigging thanks. I would rather spend a half hour in the wards than 10 hours farming.

And crafting? Forget it! I couldn't afford to do that in XI. I love it in FFXIV. I'd really rather not have it taken away because some people think wards with search functions aren't "good enough."
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#88 Dec 09 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Default
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No thanks an AH will suck and I doubt we will ever see one in 14 since the ward system is what we are given. We will get more retainers and a ward search function soon so this will kill any need for an AH. I really hate to have an ff11 AH in 14 It would really ***** up the game.
#89 Dec 09 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
I don't have FFXIV yet (PS3 player), but I have been reading the tidal wave of complaints about the wards and lack of an AH. I have some comments and suggestions but since I am not in game i am not sure how valid they will be.

Comments
SE said they didn't want an AH because everyone could view transaction history and undercut other vendors...... why is this a problem? The AH in FFXI worked for me and it was much like real life. In the editorial the OP mentioned going to the local mall to buy Holiday gifts, well if he went to a jewelry store to buy his gifts you can be **** sure that the jewelry store he eventually brought his gift from researched what other local competing stores were selling their earrings at. They either marked their prices to be the most enticing or if they were selling a high quality item they would charge whatever the **** they wanted because their clients are unlikely going to be buying good quality jewelry and looking for the cheapest price. FFXI was no different I went to the AH to by stacks of crystals or crafting items and yeah sellers would undercut each other but thats how commerce works basic items in high volume need to be attractively priced. I went to go buy a Kclub and since there were never that many on sale at one time the seller had the option to price gouge as its a premium item with little to no competition vendors.

It sounds like SE wants to make it as difficult as possible for buyers to get a deal, and that they want to create a nightmare economy that no one will ever endorse. Great conditions for scammers also Gil Sellers in FFXIV must be loving this. If SE really wants to create a economy that works and is fair it will need to scrap the whole core of their argument for having market wards or at the very least make it super easy to peruse, find and purchase the items they are looking for.

Suggestions
1. Bring back the AH for crafting items and items in large volume, but restrict the sale of rare/high price items to the ward only.
2a. If SE will not bring back AH have them force player base to sell items in specific areas of the wards. Not sure if you can have multiple retainers, if not they should let you have them and you can only sell crafting items with your crafting items retainer in the crafting items section of the ward.
2b. add transaction history of last sale price only for that specific item being sold, and or make transaction history only available to people buying items and not those selling them (I think its rediculous that SE actually wants to deter price lowering but it is an option)
3. Have an NPC that will ask you the type of item or specific item you are looking for and they teleport you directly to the first retainer selling the actual item you are looking for (why is SE making you guys do all this **** searching legwork)
4. SE should hire an actual economist to lay the groundwork for an economic system that will actually work. Seriously you, me and SE don't have the first idea on how to set up an economy.... well maybe some of you do but I don't and SE definately doesn't know. They should stick to doing what they are good at developing pretty games were people ride around on yellow ostriches.

As I said I am not playing this game yet so some of my comments and suggestions might not be valid or already in use.

If SE sticks with its plan for the economy then I won't be suprised they have never been all that good at responding to valid concerns from their player base and have a history of marching to the beat of their own drum, and they don't seem to know the song they should be playing.
#90 Dec 09 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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Simool wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
I believe that a search function is all that we need, but right now, that isn't the main point I'm trying to get across. And I'm not foolish enough to argue with a bunch of people that disagree with me from the getgo.

What I'm more concerned about, yes, is Thayos' level and the fact that what he published is an editorial, not a normal post on the forums.

Is there anything stopping him from creating a post called, "Life at level 30+ sucks", even though he's not even close to it? Are there ANY safeguards preventing any random administrator from needlessly bashing the game and giving false information like that?

Editorials make the front page. Game devs read them, and this one makes faulty assumptions and lies, and is unnecessary bashing of the game (See: ANOTHER auction house topic?). For example, it states that "A search function could have been good if it was implimented at the start of the game", which means quite literally that, "Even if a search function is implimented now, it would not fix the wards", which is a controversial topic that you are using as a fact. By putting it in an editorial like this, you're basically telling everybody, "Hey, final fantasy sucks, we NEED an auction house" to game devs, random viewers, and basically anybody that uses your site, when it isn't true.

And "So many people stash their retainer in the battlecraft wards so search will be useless" is not a valid counterargument to that. You don't know how they will impliment search.

The devs have already said they will impliment a search function, quite soon actually (Within one to two weeks). If that doesn't work and the retainer functions are still broken, and it was a major topic on the forums with extremely high agreement, then yeah. Make the editorial. I'm feeling that this one was created way too early for its intended purpose.

You hit the nail on the head with that post, thanks!


ed·i·to·ri·al (d-tôr-l, -tr-)
n.
1. An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.

There is no reason he cannot express his views on a subject that the majority of players feel need addressed. Yes...there are a handful of players who feel the retainer system can work with a search function...but is SE really in any position to still "tinker" with something so blatantly wrong when they can go with something that will satisfy the majority of players and hopefully win back subscriptions? I don't think so.


And you do the same thing again that's bothering some of us. It's not a problem that he expresses his opinion. It's a problem when it's being linked to "the majority of people feel". Suddenly he's not talking for himself anymore. And then his game level kind of starts to matter because it could indicate if he (experienced/played with/talked) to a lot of different kinds of people in game: has he talked with the high people in the game? besides the low level ones? has he talked with the crafters? the gathers? the melee? the mages? the townlurkers, social chatters? the "I'm playing solo right now" people? etc?
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#91 Dec 09 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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poisonsenvy wrote:
I really hate to have an ff11 AH in 14 It would really ***** up the game.
How? And who said anyone wanted the FFXI AH? There were plenty of flaws with that system too, although even that is better than the market ward system, even if it did have a search function. I want something better than that.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 12:41pm by bsphil
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#92 Dec 09 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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RedGalka wrote:


And you do the same thing again that's bothering some of us. It's not a problem that he expresses his opinion. It's a problem when it's being linked to "the majority of people feel". Suddenly he's not talking for himself anymore. And then his game level kind of starts to matter because it could indicate if he (experienced/played with/talked) to a lot of different kinds of people in game: has he talked with the high people in the game? besides the low level ones? has he talked with the crafters? the gathers? the melee? the mages? the townlurkers, social chatters? the "I'm playing solo right now" people? etc?


and he also admits he only tried to use them once. When was that? Before they got reorganized? What was he looking for? Some low level item that no one bothers to sell because no one buys it anymore? (Speaking from experience here - I made some low level cloth gear and I couldn't even sell it for less than it cost me to make it. I won't bother with that again until there is an influx of new players). Was it something rare and obnoxious?

We don't get to know. All we have is this opinion - which is fine, and we all are entitled to, but it doesn't really seem like it is based on anything but nostalgia or knee-jerk populism.
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#93 Dec 09 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Whatever search feature they implement I hope you're not forced to search for an item by name, I hope I can search for gear by level for example, otherwise its useless.
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#94 Dec 09 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Is there anything stopping him from creating a post called, "Life at level 30+ sucks", even though he's not even close to it? Are there ANY safeguards preventing any random administrator from needlessly bashing the game and giving false information like that?



Um, I'm not level 30, so why would I make such a claim?

News flash: you begin buying and selling items at level 1, not level 30. If I can't speak authoritatively about an issue, why on earth would I try writing about it, especially in a venue where posters like you could expose the various holes in my argument?

If we as admins decided an editorial about grinding at 30+ was needed, another admin with more experience in level grinding would be the one to write that article.

Can you find a single post of a random administrator giving false information about the game? No.

Quote:
and he also admits he only tried to use them once. When was that? Before they got reorganized? What was he looking for? Some low level item that no one bothers to sell because no one buys it anymore?


Why would I want to use them more than once, given how inconvenient they are? I'd rather just NPC my items and get back to playing the game.

You're conveniently overlooking the point of my editorial though, which isn't about my own personal dislike of the wards. The bigger picture is about the overall dissatisfaction with the game, and how many players have simply run out of patience with the game's incomplete feeling. SE knows this and has acknowledged this. Regardless of how good and functional the wards might someday be, the BEST course of action for the sake of FFXIV would be for SE to implement a tried-and-true auction house. My opinion, anyway.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:58am by Thayos
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#95 Dec 09 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Irony is that FFXI pioneered the AH system in the first place. WoW's AH was a rip off of FFXI's and most other games followed suit. Even mentioned in the Gamasutra article on the AH. Yes SE's retainer system is broken, but as mentioned before if retainers can get orders and shop other retainers for us like a quasi AH system there will be enough fixs to pull of the system to work with the wards.

I mentioned all of this before in another thread too, but I dunno anymore. We have only to wait at most another 2 weeks before the Dec patch, if this update bombs THEN I'll look for AH timetable and SE has to be considering it already for a 2011 update naturally, but I think they wanted to hold off until ps3 for a balanced set of low, medium and high ranked players to contribute to it.

Edit: Thayos is completely right because it is his opinion. The market wards are a horriblely disorganized system because the players won't sell what they need to properly, and the fact you can't see what they are selling without checking them makes it even worse. The fact you can't even search for the item makes this that much worse. Though I usually get what I need within 5 mins from the wards. Using other sites or giving LS members shopping lists while they check the wards is not user friendly for the casual player by any means, let alone the hardcore person looking all over for those HQ+3 gears.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:00pm by AceAmallie
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#96 Dec 09 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I can comment on the wards because I have used them quite a bit (I'm currently physical 42, because apparently that matters in this discussion). I think they stink. I consider it an absolute waste of my time to try and find simple items, and I try and avoid them whenever I possibly can. In my opinion, that is no way to create a solid economy in an MMO. The only thing for me that even REMOTELY makes them tolerable is my ability to look up items on YG and then hope and pray that they are still available from that retainer who posted them 2-3 days ago.

I don't think an AH like ffxi is the answer, but an AH in general is for me. What I'd like to see is instead of a price history for items, a mean price for the items. The mean price can reflect the AVERAGE selling price for the past day, week, month, and even year. I don't know if this will solve all the problems with price-gouging, but at least its a start.
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#97 Dec 09 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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See? Look at the can of worms you opened. lol
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#98 Dec 09 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is exactly correct. The only reason RMT aren't able to manipulate prices in this game is because how difficult it is to find the items. Give the RMT a little assistance in this process and they will start doing so. The average player does not want to have to hunt down several retainers to try to find the best price. RMT on the other hand have the time to engage in that type of activity. Really the only reason the RMT aren't doing this now is because its much more efficient to just make 20+ toons and drag them out to collect level reward at the crystals.

Putting a search on the retainer contents is nothing more than an AH that is just really inconvenient for the average player. It would certainly be an improvement from the current system which only serves to underscore how awful the current one is.
#99 Dec 09 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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I think the markets can work. But they aren't right now. A major problem is the fact that people are not going to have just one type of item to sell and you only get one retainer. That's more of a problem for DoW/M that just grind on mobs and get drops than say a miner who gets tons of ore or crafters that make pretty much the same gear, but the latter still have some problems as well. This is what leads to the battlecraft ward being packed with random **** and say the cobblers ward to have 2 retainers in it. I think it may be better if they consolidate some of the lesser used wards and create a "wildcard" ward or two for random stuff.

This overcrowding is also what causes barely any retainers to be loaded on screen at a time which is another big complaint. The developers never intended everyone to be crammed into a couple wards. I would say the only fault on their part for that is allowing so many retainers to be in summoned in a single ward. And who knows, maybe that kind of player precipitated overcrowding is what causes the wards to crash. I know it's contradictory to what i said above and not completely the players' fault, but it would be nice if people actually attempted to abide by the ward divisions. SE tried to alleviate the problem of finding things but i have the feeling most people ignored it and left their retainers where they were.

Have you ever been to another less populated ward? I set up shop in the mason's ward to sell mostly ores and i've been to the others when looking for specific items and it's actually a fairly pleasurable experience, 15-30 mins tops. I avoid the first 2 or 3 wards like the plague because of the overcrowding unless i specifically see something i want in them on YG. Is it wrong that i feel the need to use a website to look up what's for sale? Yes, lol. But i'm pretty sure SE is working on a way to implement this in game.

The point is, i believe with some tweaking the wards can and will work. But it's not like it's all SE's fault here, some of these problems are player precipitated. There's a system (albeit poor at this point) in place and lots of people are just refusing to use it. They are probably the same people that kill unclaimed mobs in behest even when told not to.
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#100 Dec 09 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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AH no thanks. I like the ward system but it needs updates. AH is a downgrade if its like FF11.

Three major problems with FF11 AH was that listed price histroy, items were not sold by time, items are returned for gil waste.

Wards are way better you see the price and thats good you buy or dont by.
Items on FF11 AH were sold by lowest posted price but the time was not a factor in the bid. A better design would have the oldest item sell first. EX S1 post 999g at 4pm, S2 post 901g at 5pm, B1 bids 1000g at 6pm and gets item from S1.

Side effect of FF11 AH is also RTM breeding ground and control on items. With wards you can chose not to by from RTM.

With an added search feature wards will be 100x better then AH.

An alternate view of the wards with search would be good. Take the Char select screen that has a nice 3D display selected Chars and use that interface with wards. simple smooth and wont random tab all over the place to select retainers.
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#101 Dec 09 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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xanbie wrote:
Side effect of FF11 AH is also RTM breeding ground and control on items. With wards you can chose not to by from RTM.


How do you know which retainer belongs to RMT and which one doesn't?
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