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EDITORIAL: Time for an Auction HouseFollow

#102 Dec 09 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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People who talk about RMT in this game make me laugh. Who exactly are these RMT selling to? It is unbelievably easy to make gil in this game. Prices are already low to begin with since gear does not exit the economy. Sure I've seen a bunch of RMT in-game, but who are their customers. You're a pretty bad player if you can't make enough gil to function here. Do your 8 leves every 36 hours and you should have absolutely no issues. Sell some mats on top of that and you are swimming in gil. If your best argument of not putting an AH in the game is because of RMT, I think you need to re-evaluate how you are spending your time in-game.
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#103 Dec 09 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
I started off defending the market wards, but now I'm just tired of them. Though the search function will definitely made things easier, I think you're right... we need an auction house.

I started off believing what I thought SE had in mind for them, which is that the market wards will create more of a tight knit community. I don't really care too much about price fixing, and I do spend about 1/4 of my time crafting, so it's not like it doesn't affect me at all. But it has done nothing in my mind, in closing in on 3 months now to improve the level of player interaction in the game. If SE is still so schizophrenic about RMTs, and that's why they're doing this for some reason, they really need to step back and realize that hurting people's gaming experience is going to cost them a heck of a lot more money and problems than a few extra RMTs in the game.

I have changed sides. Though I'm not going to be flooding the forums with posts about an AH (and I don't think anyone will anymore tbh), I am definitely 100% pro-auction house now.
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#104 Dec 09 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Who exactly are these RMT selling to?


RMT will destroy the economy sooner or later. You may be able to make do for now, but once new gear is implemented, which is much more expensive, as well as having to pay for massive gilsinks... it will become a problem.
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#105 Dec 09 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Who exactly are these RMT selling to?


RMT will destroy the economy sooner or later. You may be able to make do for now, but once new gear is implemented, which is much more expensive, as well as having to pay for massive gilsinks... it will become a problem.


Not to mention the lack of a min level on items. If someone has a tonne of gil bought from RMTs, they can buy high level stuff right away and be able to afford to repair it. Most people won't bother with that, but I am quite sure there are some people out there foolish enough to waste their money on this kind of stuff.
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#106 Dec 09 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:


ed·i·to·ri·al (d-tôr-l, -tr-)
n.
1. An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.

There is no reason he cannot express his views on a subject that the majority of players feel need addressed. Yes...there are a handful of players who feel the retainer system can work with a search function...but is SE really in any position to still "tinker" with something so blatantly wrong when they can go with something that will satisfy the majority of players and hopefully win back subscriptions? I don't think so.

I never said he wasn't entitled to his opinion. But the fact of the matter remains, this is an extremely popular fansite, one to which people who have not yet played the game turn to for information. Posting such articles on the front page of this site does nothing but drive potential players away. This is compounded by the fact that the complaint is about a feature that SE has even stated is not complete.
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#107 Dec 09 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Jefro420 wrote:
Simool wrote:


ed·i·to·ri·al (d-tôr-l, -tr-)
n.
1. An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.

There is no reason he cannot express his views on a subject that the majority of players feel need addressed. Yes...there are a handful of players who feel the retainer system can work with a search function...but is SE really in any position to still "tinker" with something so blatantly wrong when they can go with something that will satisfy the majority of players and hopefully win back subscriptions? I don't think so.

I never said he wasn't entitled to his opinion. But the fact of the matter remains, this is an extremely popular fansite, one to which people who have not yet played the game turn to for information. Posting such articles on the front page of this site does nothing but drive potential players away. This is compounded by the fact that the complaint is about a feature that SE has even stated is not complete.


Anyone who would be driven away by his editorial would not have stayed long anyway. Stop nit picking.
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#108 Dec 09 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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Perhaps. With the current model of the game, RMT are not an issue though. An AH would certainly not change that at present.
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#109 Dec 09 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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By the way, if SE wanted to cut down on RMT they wouldn't make restrictive trading methods or market wards. All they would need to do is to make the good gear require actual participation in an activity to get.

When you can get good gear with gold, or coin/ingredient type items that can be bought with gold, RMT will flourish.
#110 Dec 09 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
BartelX wrote:
Perhaps. With the current model of the game, RMT are not an issue though. An AH would certainly not change that at present.


Given what I know and understand, I agree with you on that. But he's right, RMT will come sooner or later, and there are always people dumb enough to use them.
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#111 Dec 09 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Simool wrote:


ed·i·to·ri·al (d-tôr-l, -tr-)
n.
1. An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.

There is no reason he cannot express his views on a subject that the majority of players feel need addressed. Yes...there are a handful of players who feel the retainer system can work with a search function...but is SE really in any position to still "tinker" with something so blatantly wrong when they can go with something that will satisfy the majority of players and hopefully win back subscriptions? I don't think so.

I never said he wasn't entitled to his opinion. But the fact of the matter remains, this is an extremely popular fansite, one to which people who have not yet played the game turn to for information. Posting such articles on the front page of this site does nothing but drive potential players away. This is compounded by the fact that the complaint is about a feature that SE has even stated is not complete.


What a load of garbage. You have absolutely no clue what will cause people to play or not play. To be completely honest, the LACK of an AH has driven away a heck of a lot of players. I'd say probably a third of my initial LS-mates left because of the awful market ward system. Saying an editorial that suggests improvements is scaring people off is absolutely ridiculous.
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#112 Dec 09 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I honestly do not understand where all this crap about Thayos' level is coming from and what it has to do with an editorial about RETAINERS AND AUCTION HOUSES. Seriously, there's no level requirement to use them, so what is the point of such an argument? That he MIGHT write an editorial about something he has no business writing about? No. You guys should know us better than that by now.

Also, maybe getting to Rank 15 is possible in a single day for some people, but it took me parts of 2 months of small playing sessions to get Rank 18 archer. That's all the time I have to give. Just because some power gamer can do it in a day, it doesn't mean that I put in the same amount of effort and can be laughed at for it.

And FYI, every single XIV staff member here has a different job that they rely on for primary income. Work here at ZAM is for supplementary income. Do not think for a moment that this job is our way of making a living.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:02am by Pikko
#113 Dec 09 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Default
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charityneverfaileth wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Simool wrote:


ed·i·to·ri·al (d-tôr-l, -tr-)
n.
1. An article in a publication expressing the opinion of its editors or publishers.

There is no reason he cannot express his views on a subject that the majority of players feel need addressed. Yes...there are a handful of players who feel the retainer system can work with a search function...but is SE really in any position to still "tinker" with something so blatantly wrong when they can go with something that will satisfy the majority of players and hopefully win back subscriptions? I don't think so.

I never said he wasn't entitled to his opinion. But the fact of the matter remains, this is an extremely popular fansite, one to which people who have not yet played the game turn to for information. Posting such articles on the front page of this site does nothing but drive potential players away. This is compounded by the fact that the complaint is about a feature that SE has even stated is not complete.


Anyone who would be driven away by his editorial would not have stayed long anyway. Stop nit picking.

I don't think that's true. We can never know what percentage of people that were turned off by the reviews may have enjoyed the other features of the game.

...and that's not nit picking, nit picking would be if I came down on him for spelling errors or some other seemingly unrelated thing, just to point out something that was wrong.
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#114 Dec 09 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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charityneverfaileth wrote:
BartelX wrote:
Perhaps. With the current model of the game, RMT are not an issue though. An AH would certainly not change that at present.


Given what I know and understand, I agree with you on that. But he's right, RMT will come sooner or later, and there are always people dumb enough to use them.


Fair enough, but by that logic wouldn't they come regardless of an AH? Wait, aren't they already here? O.o
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#115 Dec 09 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Looks like its time for my two cents.

I'm quite happy with the retainer system to be honest, its just the players that run them I don't like eg: selling food in the battlecraft ward... what are you going to do? Feed the mobs to death?

I like that we should have to go to a particular ward to find a particular item. It makes the game more immersive when you have to think about where you are going. Using the mall analogy earlier: you don't go to a lingerie store for hammers and nails.

A few solutions I'd like to see which may help the current system are:
1. 20% taxes on items in the wrong wards.
2. More retainers.
3. A search feature (even if it only works in the current ward).
4. More focus put on using the stalls. Perhaps a circular ward with an inner and outer ring of stalls and if your retainer is not in a stall it wanders off after a couple of hours.
5. Something that removes a Retainer from a ward if its not selling any items suitable for that ward.
6. Players being more aware of where they should be putting their retainers and actually doing it. For example my retainer usually has shards and alchemy items for sale so I put her in the Chirurgeon's Ward. She may have a couple of other pieces that don't fit there but 7 or 8 out of 10 items are appropriate.

Ok, so that was more than just a few things but meh...

Finally I just want to point out that this game is not WoW, its not FFXI, its not any game other than FFXIV. I've seen a retainer-based market system work very well in other games but only when coupled with a search feature. I hope SE can stick with the Retainers we have now (but more please - I'll pay for my extras) and not bring in an Auction House because we honestly don't need it. We play new games because they are new and different. If you want the same features that are present in another game go play it instead.

Rant over now, time to go hunt through another market ward ;)


Teal
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#116 Dec 09 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Is there anything stopping him from creating a post called, "Life at level 30+ sucks", even though he's not even close to it? Are there ANY safeguards preventing any random administrator from needlessly bashing the game and giving false information like that?



Um, I'm not level 30, so why would I make such a claim?

News flash: you begin buying and selling items at level 1, not level 30. If I can't speak authoritatively about an issue, why on earth would I try writing about it, especially in a venue where posters like you could expose the various holes in my argument?

If we as admins decided an editorial about grinding at 30+ was needed, another admin with more experience in level grinding would be the one to write that article.

Can you find a single post of a random administrator giving false information about the game? No.

Quote:
and he also admits he only tried to use them once. When was that? Before they got reorganized? What was he looking for? Some low level item that no one bothers to sell because no one buys it anymore?


Why would I want to use them more than once, given how inconvenient they are? I'd rather just NPC my items and get back to playing the game.

You're conveniently overlooking the point of my editorial though, which isn't about my own personal dislike of the wards. The bigger picture is about the overall dissatisfaction with the game, and how many players have simply run out of patience with the game's incomplete feeling. SE knows this and has acknowledged this. Regardless of how good and functional the wards might someday be, the BEST course of action for the sake of FFXIV would be for SE to implement a tried-and-true auction house. My opinion, anyway.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:58am by Thayos



Thayos its not about you being right or wrong in your editorial, i agree with it, but your signature might sound to a SE dev like "who is he to tell me what to do when he barely touched the game" I didn't want to offend you like you said to me i should play 20h a day etc. Reaching level 30 can be done by any casual player in less than a month.

I'm not telling you wrote anything wrong in your editorial, but your signature kind of makes your words somehow taken from others experience and not yours (since its your editorial). I'm not telling you were wrong just it looks strange from a reader point of view. I hope you and the others can respect this without bashing me to a low life and other problems you might say i have for spending more time in the game.

I wont talk more about this. I just wanted to show you what some people can think about your editorial AND then looking at signature together, but if you or Pikko or others take it as an offense and not as positive criticism to let you be more aware of what us readers think then its fine. You see i get defaulted to the bottom for expressing something even though i never offended anyone. Its pretty much like this in ZAM forums. Kinda sad to try to express myself or any other that disagrees like this.


About the Auction house: I dont agree its a necessity, i think Auction House help to destroy economies. The one from WoW kinda protects more both buyer and seller since you can identify whats happening, one thing im sure FFXI AH wouldnt help this game. See for yourself what happed to Battalia Downs and after Lower Jeuno when SE lowered the tax for bazzars. Almost everything with any importance in FFXI is being sold in those bazzars. Only trash or expendables are sold in AH (well 90% of total items at least).




Edited, Dec 9th 2010 3:27pm by MclarenTAGPorsche
#117 Dec 09 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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MclarenTAGPorsche wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Is there anything stopping him from creating a post called, "Life at level 30+ sucks", even though he's not even close to it? Are there ANY safeguards preventing any random administrator from needlessly bashing the game and giving false information like that?



Um, I'm not level 30, so why would I make such a claim?

News flash: you begin buying and selling items at level 1, not level 30. If I can't speak authoritatively about an issue, why on earth would I try writing about it, especially in a venue where posters like you could expose the various holes in my argument?

If we as admins decided an editorial about grinding at 30+ was needed, another admin with more experience in level grinding would be the one to write that article.

Can you find a single post of a random administrator giving false information about the game? No.

Quote:
and he also admits he only tried to use them once. When was that? Before they got reorganized? What was he looking for? Some low level item that no one bothers to sell because no one buys it anymore?


Why would I want to use them more than once, given how inconvenient they are? I'd rather just NPC my items and get back to playing the game.

You're conveniently overlooking the point of my editorial though, which isn't about my own personal dislike of the wards. The bigger picture is about the overall dissatisfaction with the game, and how many players have simply run out of patience with the game's incomplete feeling. SE knows this and has acknowledged this. Regardless of how good and functional the wards might someday be, the BEST course of action for the sake of FFXIV would be for SE to implement a tried-and-true auction house. My opinion, anyway.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:58am by Thayos



Thayos its not about you being right or wrong in your editorial, i agree with it, but your signature might sound to a SE dev like "who is he to tell me what to do when he barely touched the game" I didn't want to offend you like you said to me i should play 20h a day etc. Reaching level 30 can be done by any casual player in less than a month.

I'm not telling you wrote anything wrong in your editorial, but your signature kind of makes your words somehow taken from others experience and not yours (since its your editorial). I'm not telling you were wrong just it looks strange from a reader point of view. I hope you and the others can respect this without bashing me to a low life and other problems you might say i have for spending more time in the game.


I've played since launch, I'd say much more than casually but certainly not hardcore, and I have not 1 class at r30 yet. Granted I've spread out my time on a lot of classes, but making silly assumptions makes people look foolish.
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#118 Dec 09 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Mclaren, it is no different from those websites which posted reviews of ffxiv within 24 hours of launch or within a week without actually having played the game at all. You can still find so called reviewers and critics complaining about the lag of battle even after the nov 25th patch.

Though the economy is not a level based one, he's got crafting levels and crafting means a lot more then gear or weapons when looking through the wards. I cannot even find a lot of good and needed items because people rather sell them to npc then put them up in the wards. His words are true and anyone influenced by a his levels on the economy editorial is not going to bother noticing it until after they are done reading. If they agree they agree, if not, well it was an opinion anyways.

Personally some of the junk from sankaku and the other is outright slander and lies, yet people who have faith in that trollfest deserve what they get. When Thayos puts up an intelligent and thoughtful post he shouldn't have to get flamed about something as his ranks influencing something so basic and integral to the game functions.
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#119 Dec 09 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just because a select few crafting 1-1-1-1-1 @ 24/7 basement nerds love to strike "glorious deals" by browsing through every retainer for hours a day doesn't mean the rest of us, the sexually active, healthy and good-looking ones, have to waste hours of their precious lifes in a lightless dungeon to buy as much as a stupid silver ring that will serve them for one and a half levels. I want my games to be juicy, fascinating and story-driven. Not search-time driven.

I am ok with uber-nerds. They are a resilient breed that simply grows well in MMORPGs. Like cockroaches. Or psoriasis. But as soon as they start interfering with MY PERSONAL (and, as far as my estimate is correct, 95% of the original player population's - since by now, most of those have already left in disgust) fun, I say: get the f*ck out of my game and play EXCEL Online or SPSS Ultima or some similar perversion that fits your underdeveloped manhood. Stick your tycoon fantasies in the forge.


LOL, great post ~ I'm not sure I would have put it quite this way, but I have to agree ..:) There are people here who just have waaaay too much time on their hands compared to the average player - I feel fairly confident in saying that *at least* 90% of the players (more if you count the people who have already quit playing because of the market wards stupidity) do not want spend hours trying to find a simple piece of gear. There are already other fairly tedious elements in this game to deal with, such as equipment durability and the current lack of travel options.

If it weren't for listings on bazaar sites like YG, I would never step in the market wards. And even then, every time I step in the market wards and see all those lifeless dolls packed like sardines, the experience makes me feel a bit stupid for playing this game. Fortunately, I like a lot of the other aspects of the game and I avoid the market wards as much as possible, so I can continue to enjoy this game for now. But there are a lot more people who aren't going to be as tolerant or won't tolerate this for much longer, especially when the free period runs out.

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#120 Dec 09 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Good
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TealThanatos wrote:
Looks like its time for my two cents.

I'm quite happy with the retainer system to be honest, its just the players that run them I don't like eg: selling food in the battlecraft ward... what are you going to do? Feed the mobs to death?

I like that we should have to go to a particular ward to find a particular item. It makes the game more immersive when you have to think about where you are going. Using the mall analogy earlier: you don't go to a lingerie store for hammers and nails.

A few solutions I'd like to see which may help the current system are:
1. 20% taxes on items in the wrong wards.
2. More retainers.
3. A search feature (even if it only works in the current ward).
4. More focus put on using the stalls. Perhaps a circular ward with an inner and outer ring of stalls and if your retainer is not in a stall it wanders off after a couple of hours.
5. Something that removes a Retainer from a ward if its not selling any items suitable for that ward.
6. Players being more aware of where they should be putting their retainers and actually doing it. For example my retainer usually has shards and alchemy items for sale so I put her in the Chirurgeon's Ward. She may have a couple of other pieces that don't fit there but 7 or 8 out of 10 items are appropriate.

Ok, so that was more than just a few things but meh...

Finally I just want to point out that this game is not WoW, its not FFXI, its not any game other than FFXIV. I've seen a retainer-based market system work very well in other games but only when coupled with a search feature. I hope SE can stick with the Retainers we have now (but more please - I'll pay for my extras) and not bring in an Auction House because we honestly don't need it. We play new games because they are new and different. If you want the same features that are present in another game go play it instead.

Rant over now, time to go hunt through another market ward ;)


Teal


Oh god no, please no.

1. We do not need even more penalties for people trying to sell their items. The existing taxes are ridiculous, as are the hoops that a player has to jump through to actually get that item sold. We want items to be EASY to sell.
2. This makes it harder for both buyers and sellers. On the buyer's side, you now have to sift through even more trash if you want to find the item you're looking for. On the seller's side, you now have to compete with even MORE retainers selling junk items before a customer can find yours, AND you have to compete with market ward retainer limits (what is it, 200 now?).
3. Only good suggestion.
4. Are you serious? Stalls are limited. If stalls are not limited, then there is no difference between simply lumping all retainers in one area, and lumping all retainers in one area but behind stalls. If your retainer leaves the ward due to not using a stall, it becomes harder to sell items because now you have to go "refresh" your retainer every X amount of hours. It also creates the problem that once you get a stall, you can simply not let go of that stall and renew your stall subscription when it runs out. If you can't renew your stall subscription, you are now part of the losers whose retainer leaves the wards after getting bored.
5. This feature now forces people to only sell 9 items per retainer, because you can put up a trash item belonging to the battle ward for millions of gil to bypass the mechanism. It also screws over retainers selling multiple item types because once an item type similar to the ward has been bought out, the retainer leaves. i.e. if you're selling two swords and two chain mails in the battle ward, your retainer is GONE after the swords have been bought out, even though you might have had people buy the chain mails.
6. A market system that requires everyone to be organized, but does not force them, is a market system that's highly susceptible to chaos, exploitation, and douchebaggery.

Market ward system is objectively bad, and the reason virtually every other MMO that has come out in the last half a decade came out with an AH is because they are objectively BETTER and EASIER to manage and implement than almost every other system. FFXIV has plenty of things that are unique, but not everything that is unique is necessarily better than the norm. There is nothing immersive about having to spend half an hour to an hour trying to find an item you want; it's an exercise in self control trying not to toss your controller at the screen.
#121 Dec 09 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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zpanda wrote:
Quote:
Just because a select few crafting 1-1-1-1-1 @ 24/7 basement nerds love to strike "glorious deals" by browsing through every retainer for hours a day doesn't mean the rest of us, the sexually active, healthy and good-looking ones, have to waste hours of their precious lifes in a lightless dungeon to buy as much as a stupid silver ring that will serve them for one and a half levels. I want my games to be juicy, fascinating and story-driven. Not search-time driven.

I am ok with uber-nerds. They are a resilient breed that simply grows well in MMORPGs. Like cockroaches. Or psoriasis. But as soon as they start interfering with MY PERSONAL (and, as far as my estimate is correct, 95% of the original player population's - since by now, most of those have already left in disgust) fun, I say: get the f*ck out of my game and play EXCEL Online or SPSS Ultima or some similar perversion that fits your underdeveloped manhood. Stick your tycoon fantasies in the forge.


LOL, great post ~ I'm not sure I would have put it quite this way, but I have to agree ..:) There are people here who just have waaaay too much time on their hands compared to the average player - I feel fairly confident in saying that *at least* 90% of the players (more if you count the people who have already quit playing because of the market wards stupidity) do not want spend hours trying to find a simple piece of gear. There are already other fairly tedious elements in this game to deal with, such as equipment durability and the current lack of travel options.


I don't think this is a fair way to look at it. In FFXI I had to spend 20 hours farming to get even the most mundane mid-level gear. I would much rather have to spend a half hour in the market wards to find what I want than to spend 20 hours farming.

Seriously. I spend a fraction of the time trying to get equipment that I did in FFXI, even with the inefficiencies in the wards. I think when people exclude all the time it took for the average scrub in ffxi to afford that equipement that they could "instantly" buy from the AH in FFXI they are skewing the equation.

In total, the amount I time spend trying to acquire gear in FFXIV is WAAAAAAAY less than in FFXI.


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#122 Dec 09 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I just want to say that I am all for the idea of bartering and etc, but, when I have to resort to external websites to search for items because I cant find the items I need to craft, then there is something wrong.

I craft alot. I like making my own items or selling completed products. I only buy upgraded items when it is impossible for me to craft them, either due to unavailability of materials, or their requirements being far too high for the item to ever be useful when you can make it yourself. Also I am working at bringing all jobs to roughly the same level before moving onto a new level goal. This is because for many of the synthesis recipes, there is a need for 2 or more jobs.

So, at the moment, to find the materials I need to progress through the ranks is far too difficult. For this reason, I would prefer an up-to-date item tracking system. Yet, I also agree with SE when they say that the AH model from FFXI was partly responsible for the very difficult ingame economy.

But an AH could work if implemented correctly. I am just going to put a suggestion for how an AH could work: High taxation.

1) Take the average price of an item sold on the server.

2) Take the average price of an item sold on all servers.

3) Use the average of both of these two figures to work out the suggested item selling price. This should be fixed and updated after a certain amount of time. Weekly or monthly. This allows the economy to adjust to the average figure.

4) Allow players to put the item up for sale at any price, but as the distance from the average becomes larger (in either direction), then the tax on the item becomes larger. Either additively or exponentially.

This way, there is the ability for the economy to undergo inflation or deflation, but, it is somewhat controlled. Basically, selling the item at a far too low/high price will be of a disadvantage in the short term, but selling a little lower/higher than the market average can slowly change the price.

A combination or retainers and AH would be very efficient. Especially if the retainers are searchable like SE plan in the upcoming patches.

(And yes I am sure there are probably many flaws in the above idea, so, if you can think of a better idea, go for it. But dont just post disagreement without suggesting an alternative. That doesn't help anyone, and may be just a little childish :) (*This line is not directed at anyone so dont go take offence as there is none intended!*) ).
#123 Dec 09 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't find anything original or innovative about the market ward system.

Innovation is new and fresh. The Market Wards are just something the players in XI invented 8 years ago, and SE just put a roof over Rolanberry Mall, and stuck it in XIV.
There's nothing remarkable, or new about it.
We went to Rolanberry when we couldn't find something in the AH, or it was a very expensive item, and we knew it was selling outside to avoid being taxed.
No one liked browsing through the 50 bazaars out there, so why SE thought browsing through 1200 bazaars would work is beyond me. It was lazy design, period.

It is time for the AH, and they should have been designing one since the obvious failure of the Wards, not waiting to see if it works itself out before starting to design one.
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#124 Dec 09 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, as much as I appreciate the writing and insight provided by editorials.

Having them repeatedly by the SAME AUTHOR can insinuate a bias viewpoint and cause the reader to loose interest.

Thayos, you bring up good points for discussion, but could you get someone else to write the next article? I'd like to see some variety in the writing talent.
#125 Dec 09 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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If only there was some data as to how many people want an AH.

Oh wait. There's a poll for that.

Over 60 percent of responders want an AH.

I'd say that qualifies as "Most people".

EDIT: Actually, I think I'll put up a new one since that poll is 3 months old and things have changed.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 4:36pm by Mikhalia
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#126 Dec 09 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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First, from lodestone on upcoming changes in nov/dec/2011 updates for the Markets & Retainers:

Quote:
Changes to how players access the market wards
Adjustments to retainers
A feature allowing players to change their retainers' equipment
Changes to the retainer interface
The addition of a default display of prices next to each item in a retainer's bazaar
The implementation of icons for bazaar statuses (buying, selling, looking for repairs, etc.)
An increase in the number of employable retainers
The addition of an item search feature


Further adjustments to retainers
An increase in retainer inventory capacity
An increase in the number of items that can be placed in a retainer's bazaar
A fix assuring that retainers do not leave their bazaar locations after server maintenance
The addition of a sale/purchase history
Functionality changes to the "buying" feature
The addition of a delivery service


So after the outlined updates are done, we'll have a market ward system that includes a search function along with a history of sales/purchases. Sure sounds familiar, doesn't it? Yup, an Auction House. However(!), what remains a mystery is the UI/functionality of the search function. Will we be able to list all gloves by level in descending order? Can we search all wards on a given server? Or will it be a gimped text search window, which you can only access when inside a ward, where you can type in "sheep" and see all items being sold in that ward that matches "sheep"?

My point is.. why try fixing the market ward system by adding search and price history when you can simply ditch it and implement an Auction House already?

Even IF the search is properly implemented and finding an item for sale is a breeze.. guess what, you now have to port (assuming what you want is not in the city you are located in) to another city (waste 3 anima) just to buy an item. How does this system make any sense? Entirely unnecessary roadblock.

There aren't enough facepalm pictures on the internet to express the level of facepalm I feel for the way SE has tried to (and is trying to) implement the market ward system.
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#127 Dec 09 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Default
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If only there was some data as to how many people want an AH.


Meh, it's not like this really matters in the long run.

SE has put a lot of resources into this system, and they want to apply the changes to it before deciding whether to switch to AH or keep developing this system.

I do understand why they wouldn't be so eager to drop it, even if in the end they decide to do so. I think they ar already aware what we think. Whether we think the same thing in March is what will ultimately matter.

Quote:

My point is.. why try fixing the market ward system by adding search and price history when you can simply ditch it and implement an Auction House already?


Improving this system is more efficient than starting from scratch to make an AH. The necessary groundwork is already done, and if they want to make this system into an AH, it happens a lot faster this way. In the end, the systems are not that much different.

Seriously, the bulletin board at the middle of the ward can function just like an AH would. The system would search every bazaar and list the items in the correct order, just like in XI's AH. Then you could buy the items straight from the bulletin board, without having to search the wards yourself. Ta-da, you got yourself an AH.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 12:42am by Hyanmen
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#128 Dec 09 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, as much as I appreciate the writing and insight provided by editorials.

Having them repeatedly by the SAME AUTHOR can insinuate a bias viewpoint and cause the reader to loose interest.

Thayos, you bring up good points for discussion, but could you get someone else to write the next article? I'd like to see some variety in the writing talent.


Hyrist, this is kind of his job. =\
#129 Dec 09 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist, this is kind of his job. =\


You guy's can't rotate responsibilities? It's just an idea to keep things fresh. Typically, when you read an editorial's section, you usually have more than one author. And while I know you guys are probably strap for budget for more crew having him serve as head editor and rotating in other viewpoints occasionally could do well for you guys without having to strain anyone too much or put someone else on the payroll.

Cause currently what we have is one editorial from Thayos after another in our features section after another, and to be honest, both of them are rather critical. This wouldn't be such an issue if it was two perspectives looking at issues form two different angles, but it's the same voice, with pretty much the same tone. Mixing it up a bit would nip the problem in the bud before his (pretty darn good and insightful) articles degrade themselves by over-saturation to the point of being "Just another Thayos editorial."

I'm not trying to demean him, or his work. What I'm trying to say is him being the only one on that particular vein will self-demean. I like Keith Olberman as a news commentator, but if he was my only source I'd start to get sick of him. I don't want that to happen with Thayos.

I hope you guys understand.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 5:10pm by Hyrist
#130 Dec 09 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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I'm serious - is there anyone here that will honestly claim that it takes more playtime in total to get EQ (including gathering money for said equipment) in FFXIV than it does in FFXI? If so FFXI must have changed a lot since I last played it in January... I mean the highest I ever got was into my 40s and every tier of equipment was a nightmare to afford. farm farm farm. It felt like I never did anything else in XI.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:12pm by Olorinus
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#131 Dec 09 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I'm serious - is there anyone here that will honestly claim that it takes more playtime in total to get EQ (including gathering money for said equipment) in FFXIV than it does in FFXI? If so FFXI must have changed a lot since I last played it in January... I mean the highest I ever got was into my 40s and every tier of equipment was a nightmare to afford. farm farm farm. It felt like I never did anything else in XI.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:12pm by Olorinus


I have 5 million gil and I have been looking for beret for the last 6 weeks. Its complete opposite for me than in FFXI. FFXI always had items that I could see and work for. I knew what I had to do. I knew how much they cost. That was a big part of the fun. Earning 20K for my first Kingdom tunic...took me a couple weeks. I still remember it and that was about 6 years ago. I am not creating any memories like that in FFXIV.

This game does not offer me the data to pursue a "Kingdom Tunic".
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#132 Dec 09 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see. It's easier said than done though, since we all have specific roles. This is what he enjoys, so this is what he does. I am flat out not interested in writing any editorials atm and Elmer doesn't play yet. I can see if Wint or Osarion would be interested, but I have a feeling that they aren't.
#133 Dec 09 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I'm serious - is there anyone here that will honestly claim that it takes more playtime in total to get EQ (including gathering money for said equipment) in FFXIV than it does in FFXI? If so FFXI must have changed a lot since I last played it in January... I mean the highest I ever got was into my 40s and every tier of equipment was a nightmare to afford. farm farm farm. It felt like I never did anything else in XI.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:12pm by Olorinus


I have 5 million gil and I have been looking for beret for the last 6 weeks. Its complete opposite for me than in FFXI. FFXI always had items that I could see and work for. I knew what I had to do. I knew how much they cost. That was a big part of the fun. Earning 20K for my first Kingdom tunic...took me a couple weeks. I still remember it and that was about 6 years ago. I am not creating any memories like that in FFXIV.

This game does not offer me the data to pursue a "Kingdom Tunic".



Both are valid points. However the feel of the game seems to put LESS empasis on equipment, eat least in the first twenty levels, than in FFXI. You could wear one set of gear and pretty much casually collect on what you are aiming for, while you're leveling other jobs, with little to concern yourself about except for weapons. (Exception primarily being Gladiator tanks.)

Of course, this doesn't excuse the current system, and honestly, trying to innovate might have been a good idea on paper, but it's clear the practicalities of it just don't pan out well. The system in and of itself probably would have gone much better in addition to an auction house system, or something similar. Rollanmart still exists on FFXI in addition to an AH system so the retainer system itself isn't bad. It's just simply not enough as it stands and I currently question if the additional changes will make up the gap.
#134 Dec 09 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I'm serious - is there anyone here that will honestly claim that it takes more playtime in total to get EQ (including gathering money for said equipment) in FFXIV than it does in FFXI? If so FFXI must have changed a lot since I last played it in January... I mean the highest I ever got was into my 40s and every tier of equipment was a nightmare to afford. farm farm farm. It felt like I never did anything else in XI.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:12pm by Olorinus


I have 5 million gil and I have been looking for beret for the last 6 weeks. Its complete opposite for me than in FFXI. FFXI always had items that I could see and work for. I knew what I had to do. I knew how much they cost. That was a big part of the fun. Earning 20K for my first Kingdom tunic...took me a couple weeks. I still remember it and that was about 6 years ago. I am not creating any memories like that in FFXIV.

This game does not offer me the data to pursue a "Kingdom Tunic".


Really... huh, I see berets all the time. And I have never had much trouble finding ANYTHING I was looking for, ever.

The worst was when it took me two days to find a dodo-skin pot helm. I'm not talking about 2 days straight of working only for that (which would have been the case in FFXI - farm farm faaarming) I'm talking two days of occasionally checking people's bazaars while at camps waiting for other people...
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#135 Dec 09 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:


I have 5 million gil and I have been looking for beret for the last 6 weeks. Its complete opposite for me than in FFXI. FFXI always had items that I could see and work for. I knew what I had to do. I knew how much they cost. That was a big part of the fun. Earning 20K for my first Kingdom tunic...took me a couple weeks. I still remember it and that was about 6 years ago. I am not creating any memories like that in FFXIV.

This game does not offer me the data to pursue a "Kingdom Tunic".


An auction house would not alleviate this issue. To make a level 20 beret, you need an item dropped from a level 50 monster. Most weavers figure, if I'm going to use this item, I might as well make it into a level 40 beret, not a level 20 beret.

Even with an auction house, OR a search function, it would not help. The best thing you can do is ask a weaver personally, and expect to pay a lot. (Well, not so a lot since you have 5m)


Pikko wrote:
I see. It's easier said than done though, since we all have specific roles. This is what he enjoys, so this is what he does. I am flat out not interested in writing any editorials atm and Elmer doesn't play yet. I can see if Wint or Osarion would be interested, but I have a feeling that they aren't.


Personally, I'm more concerned with the fact that he doesn't even play the game, yet he's the one in charge of writing editorials. The space on the very front slot of your website is basically a "This is the state of the game right now. We are most concerned with X". SE has already promised us a search function to alleviate the retainer problem, yet there is suddenly a big sign that says, "Retainers are horrible! We want an auction house because retainers are horrible!"

Do you see what I mean? They've promised to fix it, they're offered us a fix, and yet we're still demanding more before they even implement it. It's flat out rude.
#136 Dec 09 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure why you think he doesn't play. Whenever I log on, he's the only one left online in my entire linkshell. Just because someone levels slowly, it doesn't mean they don't play. He has a full time job and a family and so do I. This means that we really don't get to play all that much.

Someone else asked us not to demean people for playing hardcore. Well, don't demean us for leveling like slugs because that's all we can afford to do.
#137 Dec 09 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
Warlord Proroc wrote:
Market Wards could work if every player used them properly. This will never happen, so for the first time since this games release, I also say an AH would be a good move.

Markets Ward CAN'T work because no player CAN use them properly. Its simple - I have some armor pieces to sell, some food, and some silk and for the sake of this example, say this is all I'm selling. I would need to put my gear in the battlecraft ward, my food in the consumables ward (? dunno if it even exists) and my silk in the tradescraft ward.

This is one of the biggest (not the only big problem mind you) problem with the wards as they are today.
a) "some armor pieces" don't go in the Battlecraft Ward they go in the Cobblers, Hatters, Clothiers, Legfitters Wards according to the Item description.
b) "Consumable food" would go into the Kitcheners or Grocers wards, again depending on the Item description
c)"Silk" would go in the Tailors ward, also according to the item description. Not the Tradescraft ward!
The tradescraft ward is for:
Goldsmith's Primary Tools / Goldsmith's Secondary Tools / Culinarian's Primary Tools / Culinarian's Secondary Tools / Carpenter's Primary Tools / Carpenter's Secondary Tools / Blacksmith's Primary Tools / Blacksmith's Secondary Tools / Armorer's Primary Tools / Armorer's Secondary Tools / Leatherworker's Primary Tools / Leatherworker's Secondary Tools / Alchemist's Primary Tools / Alchemist's Secondary Tools / Weaver's Primary Tools / Weaver's Secondary Tools / Crystals
SolidMack wrote:
For one, with the annoying fact that I only have one retainer, I can't do this all at once so I would need to sell each at different times. Two, the fact that extra retainers (will) cost money only makes number one even more necessary as number two will put you back a few bucks.

Would you trade 20 possibly 30 sales slots with extra retainers, no matter the cost for 8-10 AH slots? You will not be able to buy extra AH slots unless you make another character like in ffxi.
SolidMack wrote:
And lastly, even if I only want to sell silk, and I set up shop in the Tradescraft ward, I can get people shopping for smithing, armoury, woodworking, etc. etc. in there so there is a big problem right there as is (this stands for gear when you're looking for certain level armor). Now, you think about number one, two and three while I go do a number two.

Again, I surely won't be looking for Silks in the Tradescraft Ward. This I see as the biggest problem, besides not having a viable search function for the wards. People don't read instructions, they really don't want this system to work because they are for the most part unwilling to do the legwork to look for the items they want/need.
I have been frustrated over the very things all of you have mentioned. Taking too long to find and item, a search function would fix this, all the wrong items in the wrong wards, this could be easily fixed with a minimum of coding by restricting items to specific wards with a 75% of the bazar must have items specific to ward in them code.
I for one do not want to trade possibly 20-30 sales slots for an 8-10 item per player AH that would be a terrible trade off.
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#138 Dec 09 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I'm more concerned with the fact that he doesn't even play the game


I do play the game, so you don't need to be concerned.

Edit: Dinged 13 on blacksmithing a couple days ago, too. Go me.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:38pm by Thayos
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#139 Dec 09 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Pikko wrote:
I see. It's easier said than done though, since we all have specific roles. This is what he enjoys, so this is what he does. I am flat out not interested in writing any editorials atm and Elmer doesn't play yet. I can see if Wint or Osarion would be interested, but I have a feeling that they aren't.



Hmm. Ok, I can understand that circumstance and how it would be difficult.

Another solution would be (provided Thayos can handle the workload of it) to open up a featured 'guest editorial'. Someone from the community doing their own writing, submit it to Thayos, who looks it over with a critical eye and determines which ones show up in supplement to his own. Depending on how well written it is, it might actually save the man some time, but still make his role important (and worth the money he's paid.) Depending on the pacing, it can be a bi-weekly thing.

Sorry, just brainstorming on my end.
#140 Dec 09 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Also you may have had trouble finding a beret 6 weeks ago because they all contain appulu (sorry spelled wrong) down - which is a drop from a R40+ mob. So there simply may not have been very many available.

I mean it would be like saying that the market wards are the reason no on could find glasses 6 weeks ago. The real reason was that no one was able to make the lenses.

Half of the hate of the market wards is the fact that people got frustrated during the first week that they couldn't find items that didn't exist. The other half of the hate is that people (who hate the wards) use them incorrectly - then they complain that they can't find anything.

I think that an AH for certain kind of items (raw materials) could have a role to play. Or either that - or have a high tax AH + low tax wards. I don't think things have to stay the same as they are, but I also don't think the way things was in XI was fun. I am sorry but having to spend a week of playtime just monotonously farming stupid sh^t is not fun.


Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:44pm by Olorinus
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#141 Dec 09 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okay, after spending three or more hours trying to find ONE item today... checking one of the websites that list what people have on their Retainers in the Wards then running to the Wards to find the Retainer and trying get the item... after four failed attempts... one Retainer was not where the website said it was and the other three the item was already gone. Yes, an Auction House would be so much easier. Three hours literally wasted.
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#142 Dec 09 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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We actually already do this with a feature called "Disciples of the Pen". You may recall we used to have editorials from Sephrick. The problem with that is that no one has submitted anything lately.
#143 Dec 09 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
Pikko wrote:
I see. It's easier said than done though, since we all have specific roles. This is what he enjoys, so this is what he does. I am flat out not interested in writing any editorials atm and Elmer doesn't play yet. I can see if Wint or Osarion would be interested, but I have a feeling that they aren't.



Hmm. Ok, I can understand that circumstance and how it would be difficult.

Another solution would be (provided Thayos can handle the workload of it) to open up a featured 'guest editorial'. Someone from the community doing their own writing, submit it to Thayos, who looks it over with a critical eye and determines which ones show up in supplement to his own. Depending on how well written it is, it might actually save the man some time, but still make his role important (and worth the money he's paid.) Depending on the pacing, it can be a bi-weekly thing.

Sorry, just brainstorming on my end.


I have been asked to write an editorial for the site. I didn't, because I'm a lazy ***, but I was asked to (about computer requirements and such; back during Beta).

I can't speak for any of the Admins, but if you have an editorial that is well written and well constructed, I'm sure you could submit it to Pikko or Thayos. I know we have had editorials written by non admins in the past. Sephrick, I think, wrote an Editorial about the progression of FF games on PC. and their system requirements over time.

You (probably) won't get paid for it, but if you have an opinion and want to speak up, nothing is stopping you from writing one up and firing it off in a PM to an Admin.

Note: This is not suggesting every Tom, ****, and Harry write up some paragraph long blather about nothing of consequence; I'm talking to the people who can construct an essay, proofread it, and come up with something of literary value.
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#144 Dec 09 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Pikko wrote:
We actually already do this with a feature called "Disciples of the Pen". You may recall we used to have editorials from Sephrick. The problem with that is that no one has submitted anything lately.


Hmm. Advertising Deciples of the pen again might be a good way to get more additions.

I'd submit myself, but life has taken my MMO time away from me.
#145 Dec 09 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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To be honest, I don't even care if there is no search for the wards. As long as SE can make it easier to browse through retainer's bazaar.

A. To eliminate the problem that people are selling wrong stuff at the wrong wards, instead of just lowering tax on the correct item, SE should also INCREASE the tax on the incorrect item. Enough that people will want to think twice about putting their retainer in the wrong ward, but not so much that if people really just want to get ride of their stuff, they can still just put the retainer there and get ride of the stuff. I dunno, say 35% tax?

B. Make browsing a lot simpler. Instead of having to click on the retainer to browse, it will be really nice a window will just pop up when you target the retainer that show all the stuff they sell. It doesn't even have to show price, just the picture and name. This way we can do a quick browse, just like how you do window shopping when we walk by a store. If you see the things you want or interested, then you can click on the retainer for more details.
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#146 Dec 09 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
You're conveniently overlooking the point of my editorial though, which isn't about my own personal dislike of the wards. The bigger picture is about the overall dissatisfaction with the game, and how many players have simply run out of patience with the game's incomplete feeling. SE knows this and has acknowledged this. Regardless of how good and functional the wards might someday be, the BEST course of action for the sake of FFXIV would be for SE to implement a tried-and-true auction house. My opinion, anyway.
You don't worry about it, this is the classic pattern when a figure of authority assume a position, there will always be an opposition who will try combat your point by making you look uninformed or unprepared.

Regardless of the level, and any personal opinion you may have about the Market wards, the fact is that the majority dislike them and would prefer a proved mechanic like the AH instead.

The game is in desperate need for convenient and attractive features, to keep the current player base and hopefully attract more upon the release of PS3 version, SE should act a.s.a.p. if they are serious about rescuing FFXIV

Ken
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#147 Dec 09 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Good
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My point had less to do about the actual beret as it did about the fact its pretty tough to know how rare an item is and whether or not it exists in the market and if it does...the price attached to it.

A search would help...but I would still rather have an auction. I just fall into the group of a non crafter who can only play a couple hours day. I play pretty much every day...but I owuld much rather have shopping over-simplified. But...I do totally understand how the pro-retainer side is thinking...but it just doesn't work for me.

also...I can't get my wife to log back in until there is a very good search feature or an AH. I miss playing with her...

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 9:03pm by Simool
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#148 Dec 09 2010 at 8:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's incredibly shortsighted and insensitive to increase the taxes on items in the wrong wards until they let you have more than one retainer. It's not my **** fault that I have two maple wands, stacks of beeswax, and piles of logs. I mean, I get it, you want people to use the wards the right way, but I don't want to have to wait until the wands sell before I can sell my beeswax. I just want to freaking sell it all at once please.
#149 Dec 09 2010 at 8:04 PM Rating: Decent
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It's incredibly shortsighted and insensitive to increase the taxes on items in the wrong wards until they let you have more than one retainer.


It's a 2% increase lol.
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#150 Dec 09 2010 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Search function or not, an AH would be a good idea. Maybe its pride...pride of keeping a system that has failed the community.
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#151 Dec 09 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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QuoteI don't think that's true. We can never know what percentage of people that were turned off by the reviews may have enjoyed the other features of the game.


Sure. Like, there would be a million players if just people stopped complaining.
Wake up. Did you take a look at how player numbers decreased DURING THE
FREE TRIAL before SE decided to hide the truth from public eyes? Do you think
they all left because someone persuaded them to believe a lot of this game
is crap? No, the majority left because they smelled it by themselves.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 9:28pm by Rinsui
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