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SP System - Lack of CommunicationFollow

#1 Dec 09 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Fellow ZAM Members -

I really didn't want to make another thread talking about SP, but I really can't help but continue to be frustrated day in and day out as to how or why SE has chosen to sit on the sidelines, again, and not say anything about this broken SP scale for players post 20.

I could go on and on about how the system is broken, but you guys already know this. I could go on and on about how many people you may know are quitting/postponing playing the game because SP is broken at higher levels. No need to reply saying "go level another craft or get other jobs to 20". We've already been playing through pain and agony so I'm not going to continue that, nor does anyone that I know of. My friends are dropping like flies, hence my frustration.

The single most thing I see in LS chat across 3 different linkshells is "Why has SE said nothing about this SP system?" "Don't they realize that hardly nobody is partying?"

Furthermore, I continue to be baffled as to why the FFXIV community sites aren't helping to stand up for the players and asking SE these questions. Are they not giving anymore interviews? No more Q&A sessions? I see the latest article Thayos wrote on the AH system (and I agree with it), but can we please start escalating the SP topic?

Anyone else feeling this way? I've tried to keep a smile on my face and remain positive on the outlook of this game through all the issues we've faced, but my patience is really wearing thin these days. I'm not one to waive the white flag, but if SE doesn't address this issue it's going up for me, and I can guarantee you it will go up for many others.

Not everyone will agree with me, the solo players love current system. Nobody is arguing to change how they have it for solo, just make it worthwhile for partying.

Everyday that goes by without SE acknowledging this issue, they lose a piece of restored faith they gained from all their communications with us players over the last month.

Thoughts?




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#2 Dec 09 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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What can they say?

Really, all the options I can think of boil down to "excuses" from our PoV.

I can actually tell you what they would say:

"The system is not perfect, and we are going to adjust it further."

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 6:02pm by Hyanmen
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#3 Dec 09 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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To be honest? I am still happy that I am actually SEEING SP now after fights as a DoM class... I have crafting to catch up on so I can make and repair my own canvas and 20+ arms... >.<;
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#4 Dec 09 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
What can they say?

Really, all the options I can think of boil down to "excuses" from our PoV.

I can actually tell you what they would say:

"The system is not perfect, and we are going to adjust it further."

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 6:02pm by Hyanmen


My fear is, saying nothing translates to "working as intended".
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#5 Dec 09 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
My fear is, saying nothing translates to "working as intended".


It is working as intended, but if the players want it changed, they need to change it. They don't have a luxury of doing what they want, and they know it as well as we do.
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#6 Dec 09 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
My fear is, saying nothing translates to "working as intended".


It is working as intended, but if the players want it changed, they need to change it. They don't have a luxury of doing what they want, and they know it as well as we do.


I don't want to turn this into a debate about whether it is or isn't working as intended. My assumption is that it's not, and that is based on just about everyone in game that I come across or play with who is completely dissatisfied.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 10:11am by KnocturnalOne
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#7 Dec 09 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't want to turn this into a debate about whether it is or isn't working as intended. My assumption is that it's not, and that is based on just about everyone in game that I come across or play with who is completely dissatisfied.


In the end, it doesn't really matter. If you are correct, then it is all the more reason for them to change it. And if it does work, they still need to change it because we don't like it.

The random system was working quite as intended, but they went and changed that too because it wasn't acceptable the way it was. The next step is very small compared to what they did in November, so I -really- wouldn't be that worried about it.
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#8 Dec 09 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Take a step back, and you can see how it got to the place it is ... they removed the randomization of SP and they have a bunch of equations that in practice don't work well for parties. They can tweak this a bit. I don't think many people would argue the point that they can do a little better than a 10 second zerg of coblyns by 10 player parties.

That's only part of the problem. There's no particular reason you should have to have a party to go grind on coblyns or marmobs for piddling amounts of XP. Instead, have the parties accomplish things that a solo player can't. Big NMs. Elite mobs. Bosses. More leves. Ballista. Hamlet defense.

But these aren't done you say? Well, they're all on their way... if the patch notes are to be believed.

#9 Dec 09 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Its possible its working as intended. Everything SE has done thus far has suggested they do not want people leveling up at a reasonable pace.
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#10 Dec 09 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's too early to be complaining about the new SP system. SE put it in place and you can rest assured they are taking notes on how to adjust it, and have probably already made at least some minor adjustments for the upcoming patch.
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#11 Dec 09 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Its possible its working as intended. Everything SE has done thus far has suggested they do not want people leveling up at a reasonable pace.


That is certainly pretty evident.

I would feel much better if they at least publicly acknowledged that the current SP scale is not working as intended and that they will be adjusting it. I also hope that if SE continues to avoid this topic, that sites such as ZAM, FFXIVCORE, etc., would help be the "voice of customers" as Thayos recently did on the AH system.
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#12 Dec 09 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Default
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What's the point in leveling up any faster? What exactly do you plan to do at rank 50?

I guess I don't understand the need to rank up faster. If you don't enjoy partying for the sake of partying (having fun, goofing around, talking with people) then why play at all? If you treat this game like a job of course it's not going to be any fun. If you only log in to see that rank number increase in value, of course you're going to complain that you don't get SP fast enough. The thing is with that attitude it will never be enough. You'll always be dissatisfied because you still won't be having fun no matter how much SP you're getting.

If there were a plethora of events and activities to do at rank 50 I would see this as a legitimate complaint. Since there's next to nothing to do at rank 50, asking for more SP is pointless.

#13 Dec 09 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
What's the point in leveling up any faster? What exactly do you plan to do at rank 50?

I guess I don't understand the need to rank up faster. If you don't enjoy partying for the sake of partying (having fun, goofing around, talking with people) then why play at all? If you treat this game like a job of course it's not going to be any fun. If you only log in to see that rank number increase in value, of course you're going to complain that you don't get SP fast enough. The thing is with that attitude it will never be enough. You'll always be dissatisfied because you still won't be having fun no matter how much SP you're getting.

If there were a plethora of events and activities to do at rank 50 I would see this as a legitimate complaint. Since there's next to nothing to do at rank 50, asking for more SP is pointless.



What's the point in leveling up at all then if there's nothing to do, regardless of pace? Rhetorical question, yes.

Again, not going to turn this into a debate with you, you're clearly satisfied with the system as is, and that's okay. However, there are many others who think grinding mindless EP/TW mobs is not fun, regardless of pace.
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#14 Dec 09 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Ive mentioned this in other threads, the best SP are found in Behest and doing Leves in a party. 3-4 leves then do behest, 3-4 leves then behest. try it out. Grinding past 20 isnt worth it in my opinion.
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#15 Dec 09 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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KnocturnalOne wrote:

Again, not going to turn this into a debate with you, you're clearly satisfied with the system as is, and that's okay. However, there are many others who think grinding mindless EP/TW mobs is not fun, regardless of pace.


The question is, if they don't think it's fun, why do they do it?
#16 Dec 09 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What's the point in leveling up any faster? What exactly do you plan to do at rank 50?


It boils down to two possibilities:

Either you need enough content so slow leveling doesn't matter, or you need to make the leveling faster because that's the point of the game.

SE can do two things. If they keep adding more content, the steep leveling curve starts to make more sense and will cease to be a problem.

If they make exping faster, they can no longer focus on implementing content for all levels, but must focus on the level cap because that's where everyone will be at. It is also much harder (impossible) to nerf the exp once you have raised it once, even if there is a lot of content. No matter how much it would make sense, the players don't want a nerf. They simply can not handle it that way.

Right now exping is slow, and content is coming, slowly but surely. If they go and change the curve now, they will put themselves in a dead-end which they can not recover from until level cap gets raised. The content will become cap-focused, rather than divided between all levels.

All things considered, if I was a developer I would know exactly what is the best course of action.
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#17 Dec 09 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:

Again, not going to turn this into a debate with you, you're clearly satisfied with the system as is, and that's okay. However, there are many others who think grinding mindless EP/TW mobs is not fun, regardless of pace.


The question is, if they don't think it's fun, why do they do it?


That's the problem, less and less people are SP'ing jobs post 20 each and every day. Many people are quitting because of it.
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#18 Dec 09 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Oddly, I pretty much agree with everyone in this thread. There shouldn't be a rush to 50 especially considering the content isn't there. There doesn't seem to be a r40 quest for weaver, and I think it's the same for other classes as well. I'd like to do this as I go.

I'm cool with hyanmen's point that content is coming to break up the painful grind. That would certainly help me & others with a similar playstyle, but then I don't think it helps the people who prefer to party grind over other content. Lots of people enjoy doing that and without SP/party bonus changes I'd say they'd still be unhappy. The fact that SE hasn't said one thing about tweaking SP gains is a valid concern.
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#19 Dec 09 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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The system for SP is better, but it's definitely not working in a way that really makes much sense. Whether this is intentional or not is anyone's guess.

I've been doing a little un-scientific number comparing here and there when leveling my jobs, particularly my Lancer which now sits at Rank 26. What follows is a comparison of different results from different monsters, and the SP that I received from each, including their difficulty color:

Thickshell, Orange = 140 SP
Thickshell, Yellow = 130 SP
Mun-Tuy Squirrel, Yellow = 95/89 SP
Mun-Tuy Squirrel, Green = 86 SP
Ladybug, Blue = 73/70/67/42 SP
Ladybug, Green = 76 SP
Miteling, Yellow = 102/93 SP
Giant Bat, Green = 79 SP
Giant Bat, Blue = 67 SP
Water Elemental, Orange = 136 SP

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Here's some examples from when I was also doing some Rank ~30 leves, as the previous examples were non-leve. This included using Guardian's Aspect. All leves were 1-star:

Longclaw Galago (easiest mob), green = 254 SP
Fire Elemental (mid mob), red = 254 SP
Darkwing Devilet (hardest mob), red = 184 SP

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

As a bit of a bonus example, I also have three results from three different monsters I fought on my Rank 10 Archer:

Dodo, red = 370 SP
Copper Coblyn, blue = 225 SP (took all of two attacks, a basic and a TP move)
Thistletail Marmot, green = 196 SP (took several basic and two TP moves)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Noticing a trend? No? Well, neither am I. Because it's basically unadulterated chaos when it comes to finding out what gives what, regardless of the difficulty of the monster, or type of monster, or whatever.

One of the only observations I can reasonably make is that different monsters scale across the SP results differently, as can be noted with how a blue, easy peasy Copper Coblyn gives me more SP than a harder hitting, longer lasting, green con Thistletail Marmot. If that is the case, while I am sure in some way it makes sense (after all, not all Even Strengths are equal in challenge in FFXI for example, yet we all only got 100 XP from them), the execution does not (see: the lackluster SP from a Darkwing Devilet compared to its much easier leve-based mob companions).

So. Really. Is it nice we now have steady SP? **** yes.
Do the numbers make a lick of sense when comparing results with other monsters of other difficulties? **** no.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 12:50pm by Satisiun
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#20 Dec 09 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
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Satisiun wrote:

Do the numbers make a lick of sense when comparing results with other monsters of other difficulties? **** no.


It's really not that hard to see the pattern. In a given mob type the harder the difficulty the more SP you get. Different mob types have different SP tables. Leve mobs follow different rules because they are in groups or parties; the shield color reflects not only the mob level but the size of the group. So a group of 4 leve mobs may be "red" even though individually they would only be ranked "blue", however your SP you are awarded is based on their level and not the group size, so you get less exp for a grouped "red" mob than a solo "red" mob.

Coblyns appear to be the only thing not working as intended as their SP table is much greater than it should be for no apparent reason.
#21 Dec 09 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Satisiun wrote:

Do the numbers make a lick of sense when comparing results with other monsters of other difficulties? **** no.


It's really not that hard to see the pattern. In a given mob type the harder the difficulty the more SP you get. Different mob types have different SP tables. Leve mobs follow different rules because they are in groups or parties; the shield color reflects not only the mob level but the size of the group. So a group of 4 leve mobs may be "red" even though individually they would only be ranked "blue", however your SP you are awarded is based on their level and not the group size, so you get less exp for a grouped "red" mob than a solo "red" mob.

Coblyns appear to be the only thing not working as intended as their SP table is much greater than it should be for no apparent reason.


In that case, I should expand a little on the results of the leve examples. Both the Fire Elemental and Darkwing Devilet were paired together in the leve I am drawing information from.

Another twist, though I forgot to mention this in the other post, so my apologies for that. When I was able to defeat both Fire Elemental and Darkwing Devilet in the same group, the aforementioned SP was given. However I died after defeating the Fire Elemental in the Elemental/Devilet pair when taking on the second pair in this leve, and when I returned to take on the Devilet solo, the resulting SP was different.

303 SP, to be exact.

So the question becomes, why did a monster suddenly get a jolt to its SP output by over 50% when the battle itself was easier, thanks to the lack of a partner monster to help it fight? The Devilet certainly was no tougher or given any sort of boost by the server because of it being alone, so I've not any idea why.

Also, when bringing up the leve results, it should be noted that the Longclaw Galago were in pairs, and were effectively 4-5 basic attacks of canon fodder apiece. Why, then, is the Fire Elemental, with its higher con (regardless of potentially being a result of being matched with another monster, the Devilet), stronger attacks, and greater endurance in a battle, giving the same SP?

Coblyns aren't the only ones that seem not to be scaling properly with SP when compared to the rest. And worse, this also means that in some cases, you get rewarded less for more difficult fights, instead rewarding players who blitz through blues, instead of running over reds, or leaving sword gashes in greens.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 1:16pm by Satisiun
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#22 Dec 09 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
What's the point in leveling up any faster? What exactly do you plan to do at rank 50?


Personally, I see this as 2 problems.
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#23 Dec 09 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
What's the point in leveling up any faster? What exactly do you plan to do at rank 50?

I guess I don't understand the need to rank up faster. If you don't enjoy partying for the sake of partying (having fun, goofing around, talking with people) then why play at all? If you treat this game like a job of course it's not going to be any fun. If you only log in to see that rank number increase in value, of course you're going to complain that you don't get SP fast enough. The thing is with that attitude it will never be enough. You'll always be dissatisfied because you still won't be having fun no matter how much SP you're getting.

If there were a plethora of events and activities to do at rank 50 I would see this as a legitimate complaint. Since there's next to nothing to do at rank 50, asking for more SP is pointless.



You're right, you don't understand. Some people enjoy partying for the sake of partying, some people enjoy partying to gain new abilities/gear, and some people party for the promise of moving onto increasingly epic content (be it NM's, story quests, class quests, new stomping grounds, whatever). You are only addressing 2 of many possibilites. Furthermore, who are you to say which is right and which is wrong? The game focuses on promoting and rewarding the leveling multiple disciplines, it is the very core of its design. When you have to put arbitrary and artificial limits on the primary focus of your game, that is the definition of epic fail.
#24 Dec 09 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not knowing all the rules of an MMO is what makes it enjoyable for me. :)

But yeah, leve mobs seem to have different SP rules than normal mobs. One other anomoly is that if you kill multiple normal mobs with an AoE move you get reduced or zero SP from the adds while with leve mobs you get full SP for each kill using AoE. My guess is that since leves are intended to be a primary leveling mechanic the SP rules are a bit more generous, but perhaps SE hasn't worked out all the bugs yet. Remember this wasn't their original SP leveling system, they had to create this pretty quickly in November.
#25 Dec 09 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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Satisiun wrote:
Another twist, though I forgot to mention this in the other post, so my apologies for that. When I was able to defeat both Fire Elemental and Darkwing Devilet in the same group, the aforementioned SP was given. However I died after defeating the Fire Elemental in the Elemental/Devilet pair when taking on the second pair in this leve, and when I returned to take on the Devilet solo, the resulting SP was different.

303 SP, to be exact.

So the question becomes, why did a monster suddenly get a jolt to its SP output by over 50% when the battle itself was easier, thanks to the lack of a partner monster to help it fight? The Devilet certainly was no tougher or given any sort of boost by the server because of it being alone, so I've not any idea why.
Did you kill the first imp while weakened? That is the only scenario that makes sense to me, other than there being varying mob levels within the same leve.
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#26 Dec 09 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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Furia wrote:
You're right, you don't understand. Some people enjoy partying for the sake of partying, some people enjoy partying to gain new abilities/gear, and some people party for the promise of moving onto increasingly epic content (be it NM's, story quests, class quests, new stomping grounds, whatever). You are only addressing 2 of many possibilites. Furthermore, who are you to say which is right and which is wrong? The game focuses on promoting and rewarding the leveling multiple disciplines, it is the very core of its design. When you have to put arbitrary and artificial limits on the primary focus of your game, that is the definition of epic fail.


So do you mean to say that leveling is just a means to an end? That you really don't enjoy the act of leveling but endure it for what is to come at rank 50? There's nothing wrong with that, but changing the SP system isn't going to change the "fun" of partying, it'll just change the rewards so you rank up faster.

For example, you find an SP party fighting blue mobs. The gameplay is boring, but you're making 20k SP/hr. Then you find an SP party fighting orange-red mobs. The gameplay is exciting, but you're only making 10k/hr. Which do you choose?
#27 Dec 09 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby, Star Breaker wrote:
Did you kill the first imp while weakened? That is the only scenario that makes sense to me, other than there being varying mob levels within the same leve.


Nay. I waited until I was back to full health, since just one accurate Impish Incantation would rock me for more HP than I would have when weakened.
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#28 Dec 09 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm glad SE adjusted the SP so that it's no longer random. Now they need to adjust the SP so that more difficult mobs give more SP than easy mobs.
#29 Dec 09 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
So do you mean to say that leveling is just a means to an end? That you really don't enjoy the act of leveling but endure it for what is to come at rank 50? There's nothing wrong with that, but changing the SP system isn't going to change the "fun" of partying, it'll just change the rewards so you rank up faster.

For example, you find an SP party fighting blue mobs. The gameplay is boring, but you're making 20k SP/hr. Then you find an SP party fighting orange-red mobs. The gameplay is exciting, but you're only making 10k/hr. Which do you choose?


Yes, that's exactly what I mean. For some, it's purely a means to an end. For others, it's a mix. The problem isn't the absence of fun in partying, it's the absence of fun in general. If someone derives their pleasure from gaining abilites/gear, or (in the immediate future) high rank NM leves, class quests, story quests (whatever), then a faster SP system is absolutely going to improve the game for them.
#30 Dec 09 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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I understand that there is no content at rank 50, and we should not be rushing to get there. However it makes me think, why are we being delayed? There is no content for rank 50's but achieving rank 50 now, should be personal choice and not a choice made by SE. I imagine the rank and level cap will be lifted eventually, and it will be an even longer trek to reach the new cap. But why is SE doing this? Perhaps they have not even begun working on endgame content, which makes me wonder when will this new content be available. Looking at the development of this game, as of today, it may be a few years before we see endgame content. And if it is a few years before we get endgame content, would everyone still agree that there should not be any hurry to get to it?

I hope I am completely incorrect in my assumption. But seing how this game is being developed... lets just say my hopes are not too high.
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#31 Dec 09 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
My fear is, saying nothing translates to "working as intended".


It is working as intended, but if the players want it changed, they need to change it. They don't have a luxury of doing what they want, and they know it as well as we do.


I say make the xp curve steeper post 30 and make the SP system work as it did in FFXI with xp chaining - it felt much more rewarding and you can make efficient xp that way.
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#32 Dec 09 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't care about rushing to 50. I care about the total lack of challenge with how the system works right now. It rewards you for not partying and if you do (party) to fight too weak mobs and rush them while slamming your 1 button relentlessly.

The scaling is beyond abysmal.
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#33 Dec 09 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Rexcaldur1 wrote:
I understand that there is no content at rank 50, and we should not be rushing to get there. However it makes me think, why are we being delayed? There is no content for rank 50's but achieving rank 50 now, should be personal choice and not a choice made by SE. I imagine the rank and level cap will be lifted eventually, and it will be an even longer trek to reach the new cap. But why is SE doing this? Perhaps they have not even begun working on endgame content, which makes me wonder when will this new content be available. Looking at the development of this game, as of today, it may be a few years before we see endgame content. And if it is a few years before we get endgame content, would everyone still agree that there should not be any hurry to get to it?

I hope I am completely incorrect in my assumption. But seing how this game is being developed... lets just say my hopes are not too high.


If end-game content is what you enjoy in an MMO, playing a brand new MMO probably isn't the wisest idea. Of course it's going to be a while before we see true end-game, no MMO launched with an end-game. They've all had level cap increases as the game matures. That's not to say there wont be temporary rank-cap content in the mean time, like these new rank 50 NMs, but don't expect content like level 75 FFXI end-game for at least a few years.

Of course SE is "delaying" us just like level cap quests delayed us in FFXI. When I played it took an alliance of people to beat some of the level cap quests. Now they can be soloed because SE has no need to delay leveling in FFXI. They're delaying us because they don't want a bunch of players at rank-cap with nothing to do. People with nothing to do tend to quit. Ranking up may be tedious and boring, but at least it's something. They also don't want a large percentage of rank-cap players right now for balance reasons. It wouldn't be a very friendly world for new comers if most people were at rank cap.

Of course the real answer would have been to release the game with more non-ranking-up content. But that didn't happen and saying "SE should have waited" doesn't help anyone anymore.
#34 Dec 09 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
I hope when people say "SP system is broken" they don't mean the SP/hour but the solo<>group mechanics themselves.

The reason for former is rather simple and has been explained here, the reason for latter is something they should adjust if it doesn't work.
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#35 Dec 09 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Rexcaldur1 wrote:
I understand that there is no content at rank 50, and we should not be rushing to get there. However it makes me think, why are we being delayed? There is no content for rank 50's but achieving rank 50 now, should be personal choice and not a choice made by SE. I imagine the rank and level cap will be lifted eventually, and it will be an even longer trek to reach the new cap. But why is SE doing this? Perhaps they have not even begun working on endgame content, which makes me wonder when will this new content be available. Looking at the development of this game, as of today, it may be a few years before we see endgame content. And if it is a few years before we get endgame content, would everyone still agree that there should not be any hurry to get to it?

I hope I am completely incorrect in my assumption. But seing how this game is being developed... lets just say my hopes are not too high.


If end-game content is what you enjoy in an MMO, playing a brand new MMO probably isn't the wisest idea. Of course it's going to be a while before we see true end-game, no MMO launched with an end-game. They've all had level cap increases as the game matures. That's not to say there wont be temporary rank-cap content in the mean time, like these new rank 50 NMs, but don't expect content like level 75 FFXI end-game for at least a few years.

Of course SE is "delaying" us just like level cap quests delayed us in FFXI. When I played it took an alliance of people to beat some of the level cap quests. Now they can be soloed because SE has no need to delay leveling in FFXI. They're delaying us because they don't want a bunch of players at rank-cap with nothing to do. People with nothing to do tend to quit. Ranking up may be tedious and boring, but at least it's something. They also don't want a large percentage of rank-cap players right now for balance reasons. It wouldn't be a very friendly world for new comers if most people were at rank cap.

Of course the real answer would have been to release the game with more non-ranking-up content. But that didn't happen and saying "SE should have waited" doesn't help anyone anymore.


I think you hit the nail on the head. I'll joining at the PS3 release and that is a reason SE has a lvl cap right now, I'm almost certain. I joined XI years after release and there were so many people at cap for one or more jobs but there were also just as many new players. For XIV, SE is royally er... hurting... PS3 players because they pushed the PC release before cataclysm and didn't have the PS3 version ported till the last month or so. Now when I join I know half the PC players will be at cap and I'm playing catchup.

Of course SE SHOULD HAVE waited but they didn't. Oh well. I don't mind having to play "catch up" because I only care about my own game. As long as SE doesn't "hurt" PS3 users more by making SP harder to get overall, which it was pointed out would be a terrible idea as nobody wants a nerf. I want to be able to catch up a decent amount so that it doesn't turn into PC vs. PS3 LSs or anything, I know they plan on giving incentives to prevent that but still, I want to play with everyone on the server. Not everyone who is also on PS3.

My friend has been in since the alpha. He's got at least one capped class. I'm joining the same server to chill and play with him. But just like in XI, which he joined probably 2 years before I did, it'll turn into us chatting through /t and him helping me when he's bored and I need help. That isn't cool. But at the same time, SE shouldn't be restricting you guys just because you got the game before the PS3 release and have systems that can support it now.
#36 Dec 09 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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There needs to be a letter or message of some kind written up expressing the opinion of the players which we can add our names or game names too and send. The same could be done for the AH if that is something you feel needs to be added as well.
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#37 Dec 09 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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First, I want to say thanks to everyone for having a reasonable discussion here. Kudos to everyone in this thread!

That out of the way, it's not all about just getting to rank 50 or getting levels super fast. It's about having an SP system that is "somewhat" fun. I say "somewhat" because grinding is never going to be the absolute joy for why I would level. What I want is a fair SP system that rewards party play by granting higher SP for well rounded parties taking on higher mobs. By taking on higher mobs you're actually using your abilities as opposed to spamming 1 constantly.

Correcting the above would result in players becoming much more immersed into grinding, actually requiring the player to somewhat pay attention. It would also encourage teamwork and make the game more social. Do you know how long it's been since someone has done a shout for an SP party for higher levels? I can't even remember.

I'm getting tired of doing a million other things in this game because I can't do the few things I want to do. I either run into the SP system being horrendous, fatigue on my CRP, gathering fatigue on my BTN (before I hit actual SP fatigue), etc. etc. I don't want to level more crafts, I don't want to take my DoW jobs up to 20.

Where is my freedom SE promised?



Edited, Dec 9th 2010 3:44pm by KnocturnalOne
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FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#38 Dec 09 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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800 posts
KnocturnalOne wrote:
First, I want to say thanks to everyone for having a reasonable discussion here. Kudos to everyone in this thread!

That out of the way, it's not all about just getting to rank 50 or getting levels super fast. It's about having an SP system that is "somewhat" fun. I say "somewhat" because grinding is never going to be the absolute joy for why I would level. What I want is a fair SP system that rewards party play by granting higher SP for well rounded parties taking on higher mobs. By taking on higher mobs you're actually using your abilities as opposed to spamming 1 constantly.

Correcting the above would result in players becoming much more immersed into grinding, actually requiring the player to somewhat pay attention. It would also encourage teamwork and make the game more social. Do you know how long it's been since someone has done a shout for an SP party for higher levels? I can't even remember.

I'm getting tired of doing a million other things in this game because I can't do the few things I want to do. I either run into the SP system being horrendous, fatigue on my CRP, gathering fatigue on my BTN (before I hit actual SP fatigue), etc. etc. I don't want to level more crafts, I don't want to take my DoW jobs up to 20.

Where is my freedom SE promised?


I agree with you and I think it should be changed so harder mobs give more SP than they currently do. But at the same time the harder mobs ARE there. The only thing preventing people from partying on challenging mobs is the min-maxing attitude that SP/hr is more important than fun. You HAVE the freedom, it's up to you to UTILIZE it. SE is not going to force you to have fun. There are no giant green exclamation marks telling you what to do. It's up to you to figure out what you enjoy in this game. If you want to grind as fast as possible, then party on blue mobs. If you want to be challenged while you're ranking up, party on red mobs.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:55pm by Hydragyrum
#39 Dec 09 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
22 posts
I notice a lot of people focusing on arguments that i don't really understand. The reason that i'm ranking up isn't that my goal is rank 50 at all. I am upset with the sp system because there isn't a reasonable system of rewards. I enjoyed the "random" earned sp system because at the end of a battle i was rewarded for my accomplishment during the battle. now i don't feel rewarded at the end of every battle and not only that it is going to take me ages to get to get to a level to get my next set of gear but it's also going to take ages to get the next class quest and next storyline quest.

Also i was trying to catch up with some friends who had gotten to higher levels faster than me and i was making ground but now that seems to be an impossible feat that i'll never reach. My other goals in the game were to max rank one class at a time to rank 50 until i had each class maxed. which would now take significantly unreasonable amounts of time. Nothing good happens before rank 20 so getting stuck at rank 20 with each class seems like punishment to me.

When the NM's start being implemented the only people who are going to be able to reap the rewards are those who power ranked early and got to the 40's because NM's are going to be difficult and i feel are being implemented as rewards for those who have already reached high rank. what am i to do now that the sp system has me stuck at rank 31 for a week?
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#40 Dec 09 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
I enjoyed the "random" earned sp system because at the end of a battle i was rewarded for my accomplishment during the battle. now i don't feel rewarded at the end of every battle


Talking about arguments I don't really understand... this is pretty high on the list.
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#41 Dec 09 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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447 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
KnocturnalOne wrote:
First, I want to say thanks to everyone for having a reasonable discussion here. Kudos to everyone in this thread!

That out of the way, it's not all about just getting to rank 50 or getting levels super fast. It's about having an SP system that is "somewhat" fun. I say "somewhat" because grinding is never going to be the absolute joy for why I would level. What I want is a fair SP system that rewards party play by granting higher SP for well rounded parties taking on higher mobs. By taking on higher mobs you're actually using your abilities as opposed to spamming 1 constantly.

Correcting the above would result in players becoming much more immersed into grinding, actually requiring the player to somewhat pay attention. It would also encourage teamwork and make the game more social. Do you know how long it's been since someone has done a shout for an SP party for higher levels? I can't even remember.

I'm getting tired of doing a million other things in this game because I can't do the few things I want to do. I either run into the SP system being horrendous, fatigue on my CRP, gathering fatigue on my BTN (before I hit actual SP fatigue), etc. etc. I don't want to level more crafts, I don't want to take my DoW jobs up to 20.

Where is my freedom SE promised?


I agree with you and I think it should be changed so harder mobs give more SP than they currently do. But at the same time the harder mobs ARE there. The only thing preventing people from partying on challenging mobs is the min-maxing attitude that SP/hr is more important than fun. You HAVE the freedom, it's up to you to UTILIZE it. SE is not going to force you to have fun. There are no giant green exclamation marks telling you what to do. It's up to you to figure out what you enjoy in this game. If you want to grind as fast as possible, then party on blue mobs. If you want to be challenged while you're ranking up, party on red mobs.

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:55pm by Hydragyrum


But why can't I have fun AND be productive with my time too?
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FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#42 Dec 09 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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If you party to have fun with friends, that's great. If you enjoy the slow, steady climb to cap because there's no content at R50 right now, have at it, you're not wrong. If you think that everyone should share the same sentiment, and that the SP system is proof that we should, then you're guilty of the same close-mindedness you're accusing us of having.

Personally, I find the most fun in gaining SP with others, maxing our rank, and then seeing what I can accomplish at that point, grouped and solo. So for me, I party to gain SP as my top priority. From my perspective, the SP system is in dire need of tweaks. And though this viewpoint may differ from your own, it does not make it invalid.

As it stands, I can gain SP much faster fighting solo, than in a party (@ R41). In a game that should be promoting grouping (MMO), this is the problem. For the many other players like me, we find ourselves soloing to achieve the best SP rates, this is the problem. You can't build a community if everyone is soloing, and the content available at any given time, should be focused on grouping no matter what stage the game is in. It's not a question of the rate to gain R50, I'd be happy with gaining SP 10% faster if it was possible in a party, but it's not. And no, leves don't prove better SP at this rank. I still only gain maybe 150SP on a kill, with Guardian's Aspect, that took me 5-7 minutes to run to. Leve linking may help SP gains, but it burns the leves faster, and we're out solo grinding in no time.

Then scrutinize us for what we'll do at cap? How does that help any newcomers to the game? It's obvious what we'll do: rank up one of the many other classes, starting at R1 (or where ever we left it) and party with the newcomers. Or we'll rank a craft, and make more gear for newcomers. Or we'll rank a gatherer, and provide materials for newcomers. I'll make the journey again, if it's fulfilling my (very common) idea of fun in an MMO.

We're playing the game with the content we've got, and we're happy to do that. But to not acknowledge that the SP system may need revision, based on a common MMO playstyle, is just being as close-minded as we're accused of for mentioning it. Not supporting the community's varied viewpoints is going to accomplish nothing, but reducing the community as a whole. If the game fails and the servers shut down, who will you party with then?
#43 Dec 09 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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447 posts
diiablo wrote:
If you party to have fun with friends, that's great. If you enjoy the slow, steady climb to cap because there's no content at R50 right now, have at it, you're not wrong. If you think that everyone should share the same sentiment, and that the SP system is proof that we should, then you're guilty of the same close-mindedness you're accusing us of having.

Personally, I find the most fun in gaining SP with others, maxing our rank, and then seeing what I can accomplish at that point, grouped and solo. So for me, I party to gain SP as my top priority. From my perspective, the SP system is in dire need of tweaks. And though this viewpoint may differ from your own, it does not make it invalid.

As it stands, I can gain SP much faster fighting solo, than in a party (@ R41). In a game that should be promoting grouping (MMO), this is the problem. For the many other players like me, we find ourselves soloing to achieve the best SP rates, this is the problem. You can't build a community if everyone is soloing, and the content available at any given time, should be focused on grouping no matter what stage the game is in. It's not a question of the rate to gain R50, I'd be happy with gaining SP 10% faster if it was possible in a party, but it's not. And no, leves don't prove better SP at this rank. I still only gain maybe 150SP on a kill, with Guardian's Aspect, that took me 5-7 minutes to run to. Leve linking may help SP gains, but it burns the leves faster, and we're out solo grinding in no time.

Then scrutinize us for what we'll do at cap? How does that help any newcomers to the game? It's obvious what we'll do: rank up one of the many other classes, starting at R1 (or where ever we left it) and party with the newcomers. Or we'll rank a craft, and make more gear for newcomers. Or we'll rank a gatherer, and provide materials for newcomers. I'll make the journey again, if it's fulfilling my (very common) idea of fun in an MMO.

We're playing the game with the content we've got, and we're happy to do that. But to not acknowledge that the SP system may need revision, based on a common MMO playstyle, is just being as close-minded as we're accused of for mentioning it. Not supporting the community's varied viewpoints is going to accomplish nothing, but reducing the community as a whole. If the game fails and the servers shut down, who will you party with then?


Very, VERY well said, sir. Rate up for you!
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PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#44 Dec 09 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Default
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KnocturnalOne wrote:
Fellow ZAM Members -

I really didn't want to make another thread talking about SP, but I really can't help but continue to be frustrated day in and day out as to how or why SE has chosen to sit on the sidelines, again, and not say anything about this broken SP scale for players post 20.

I could go on and on about how the system is broken, but you guys already know this. I could go on and on about how many people you may know are quitting/postponing playing the game because SP is broken at higher levels. No need to reply saying "go level another craft or get other jobs to 20". We've already been playing through pain and agony so I'm not going to continue that, nor does anyone that I know of. My friends are dropping like flies, hence my frustration.

The single most thing I see in LS chat across 3 different linkshells is "Why has SE said nothing about this SP system?" "Don't they realize that hardly nobody is partying?"

Furthermore, I continue to be baffled as to why the FFXIV community sites aren't helping to stand up for the players and asking SE these questions. Are they not giving anymore interviews? No more Q&A sessions? I see the latest article Thayos wrote on the AH system (and I agree with it), but can we please start escalating the SP topic?

Anyone else feeling this way? I've tried to keep a smile on my face and remain positive on the outlook of this game through all the issues we've faced, but my patience is really wearing thin these days. I'm not one to waive the white flag, but if SE doesn't address this issue it's going up for me, and I can guarantee you it will go up for many others.

Not everyone will agree with me, the solo players love current system. Nobody is arguing to change how they have it for solo, just make it worthwhile for partying.

Everyday that goes by without SE acknowledging this issue, they lose a piece of restored faith they gained from all their communications with us players over the last month.

Thoughts?









They said they were going to make getting to 20 faster. They did. They said they were going to lower the exp needed from 1-31. They did. They wanted SP to be normalized across a group. They have done that. Yes, it feels a little low but I easily gain a rank in a day in the high 30s. Partying is kinda dead and that is their one failing in what they said they intended.

If you have ever played an mmo (It's pretty clear that you never have) you know that to balance a complex system like SP it's best to start at at point on the scale(in this case the lower end) see what happens gather data from thousands of fights and groups and then tweak it to match what the company and hopefully the players feel is appropriate. Every game does this. Why are you surprised?
Did you really expect it to just BAM! POOF! NIPPLES! and it's good? Clearly that isn't a rational thought. We are the test server. We are testing it. Welcome to SE.

I don't agree that this is broken. I think it needs tweaked a little and the developer intent shared a bit tho. It's not logical to think that they will have gathered enough data to say anything before about right now about any changes. That would be an ill informed mistake.


Edited, Dec 9th 2010 5:42pm by zoltanrs
#45 Dec 09 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Join a LS with people close to your rank, and do leves. It's faster than before the patch >_>
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#46 Dec 09 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Did you really expect it to just BAM! POOF! NIPPLES! and it's good?


Really, I didn't expect them to make such a drastic change to the SP system in Nov. patch. They never really even hinted at it before.

We all thought they would "standardize" the randomness at least, yet still keep it intact for the most part. They went far further than what I assumed at least. And if anyone was expecting more, I would have thought they were expecting too much.

What they need to do now is only a small step compared to what they had to do before November. As much as people said "after the update we're in the same place where we started from"... They went from needing to do a major overhaul to little balancing as far as grouping mechanics go.

That's my definition of "success". Not perfect, but close enough.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 1:52am by Hyanmen
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#47 Dec 09 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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I feel SP gain is much better now. I also like that I no longer have to be a heal bot to get reliable SP. I know I am not partying in high levels yet, so yeah, I can't comment on that as much but it seems much faster to level up now.

And no one is making anyone rank on cobs. Yeah, they might be the fastest prey or whatever, but that doesn't mean you have to do that. I dunno. I'll take a fun party that gets 10% less SP over a boring party with 10% more SP any day... like how I decided I would rather solo my BLU post 30 than go through garbage sh^tty **** one more time.
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#48 Dec 09 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I feel SP gain is much better now.


I don't think there was anyone who liked the old system more than the new one than those at a high level that could really make use of the party bonus with 15 man parties slaughtering everything in the way.

That just doesn't sound right to me. I mean, by making the monsters easier to kill you gain more SP? How does that work?

The system is still off, and doesn't make sense in some parts- but not nearly as much.
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#49 Dec 10 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Good
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Yes it's sad that people don't seem to be partying.

You need a strong linkshell. I'm lucky to be in my, my LS parties almost daily, 15 man parties, and we get 50k sp every day. But if you're not in such a LS, it does seem almost impossible to find a party.
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