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More defined job roles pls!Follow

#1 Dec 10 2010 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
Call me a noob but I think the one big thing missing in FFXIV is the definite roles of the classes (And I am ready to eat my words if it indeed is different when you hit higher levels).

When I was playing 11 I loved being the mage keeping the party alive, making sure the tank and the DDs were all buffed up and so on.
I had to keep vigilant on all battles that I removed all status affects immediately and sometimes this meant casting paralyna on 5 people (separately) so I had to really think who comes first on my priority list and so on…
I had orders for Haste and Refresh and I had to make quick judgements if I was running on low MP on who to skip in the order to keep the party going.
Some people say that it was boring, I say it actually required some skill to be an amazing healer and a party support. You had to know what mobs cast what spells and be prepared for them.

NOW in FFXIV I am playing a combination of Thaumaturge and Conjurer hoping to eventually have them both at rank 50. When I join a party there usually are 2-3 mages spamming sacrifice and cure on the whole party. There is no strategy, planning and no responsibility on playing the healing skills to the max. I think the AOE takes SO MUCH away from the mages and it should be removed completely. Yes… it makes it so much easier to heal people but do you really want it to be that easy?!

Ok, I remember dunes parties sometimes had 2-3 mages healing the rest of the DDs but they didn't AOE spam either.

I don't play melee jobs so I can't say much about them, but I would like to feel like I am contributing something to the SP gain … other than AOE spam…

Rant over…
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#2 Dec 10 2010 at 3:59 AM Rating: Decent
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i like your thinking..
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#3 Dec 10 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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As a 7 year veteran of FFXI on RDM.

No. Just no.

Never, do I ever want to hear "Refresh PLZ" Again. And what you're doing is asking for just that. I'd rather the ambiguous job roles in the game than the 'blame the healer/support' game FFXI tended to do that pushed most players away from abilities and roles of healers.

Sorry but I gotta staunchly disagree with this one.
#4 Dec 10 2010 at 6:38 AM Rating: Decent
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I really don't care about job roles, but I would like to see more job differentiation, especially in playstyle. Different jobs should at least play slightly differently, not just give you different menu options to select.
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#5 Dec 10 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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My answer is pretty much the same for topics of this nature...the game needs content to create scenarios that need defined roles. Then if someone wants to specialize in enfeebles & such with backup healing, they can fill that role. If they wanna go offensive mage, they can do that too. And all other combinations imaginable. It's already there in the skills & spells you can obtain, we just need the content that would make use of it. Right now most don't bother because there's no need.

What I don't need is "Oh you're that class? Then your role is this and nothing else!"



Edited, Dec 10th 2010 8:34am by TwistedOwl
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#6 Dec 10 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
My answer is pretty much the same for topics of this nature...the game needs content to create scenarios that need defined roles. Then if someone wants to specialize in enfeebles & such with backup healing, they can fill that role. If they wanna go offensive mage, they can do that too. And all other combinations imaginable. It's already there in the skills & spells you can obtain, we just need the content that would make use of it. Right now most don't bother because there's no need.

What I don't need is "Oh you're that class? Then your role is this and nothing else!"



Edited, Dec 10th 2010 8:34am by TwistedOwl

I whole heartedly agree. We need mobs that take longer to take down and give SP that make it worth it to kill them, and people would naturally gravitate to different playstyles. Right now you could call this game "gang rape the coblyns" and it would be a pretty accurate title.
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#7 Dec 10 2010 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think most people would enjoy the Refresh/Haste cycle **** of the FFXI RDM. However, otherwise I completely agree with you. Monsters need to have serious status effects for mages to remove and heals need to not be freely AoEable (not a word). It seems to me like the whole AoE thing with spells was a direct consequence of the lack of targeting options. Single target healing of various party members in FFXI can be done in a flash, in FFXIV not so much as even if we were recently given hot keys for members 1-4, it actually only applies to primary targeting and not the secondary targeting used for cures. Also, 1-4 is not enough and the whole 15-member party structure is a bit of a disaster.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 9:06am by Omena
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#8 Dec 10 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pigeonholing classes into staunch roles based upon a single ability or two = bad.

Classes having defining abilities that bring uniqueness into party play = excellent.

How you successfully intertwine the two into the same game = Impossible to gauge, for me. That's why there are people much smarter than me working on these games.
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#9 Dec 10 2010 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
Hyrist wrote:
As a 7 year veteran of FFXI on RDM.

No. Just no.

Never, do I ever want to hear "Refresh PLZ" Again. And what you're doing is asking for just that. I'd rather the ambiguous job roles in the game than the 'blame the healer/support' game FFXI tended to do that pushed most players away from abilities and roles of healers.

Sorry but I gotta staunchly disagree with this one.


I played all mage jobs and mainly Red Maged through the end game for years so I know what the refresh **** was like, but that wasn't really the point of the post... Just like the "cycles" really wasn't all that RDM was or if it was, I must have been doing something wrong.

Anyways, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this whole AOE thing will adjusted and jobs get a bit more depth in them
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#10 Dec 10 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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i kinda saw this coming, but because this game allows almost every ability to be used on every class, they all have to be balanced regarding every class. That kinda leads to everything being boring and interchangeable, or a must have ability.
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#11 Dec 10 2010 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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My friend would always melee and partake in skillchains as a red mage, there were elitest people that would say that one class could only play this way, but I generally stayed away from those people.

****, if you wanna be a pld/nin and tank in a party, I would fully support your decision, and look to pick up a Theif who is able to ensure that pld/nin can keep hate.

There is so much depth in FFXI that people just don't recognize, it happens in pretty much every game. Take WoW for instance (if you've played WoW), they have the same elitest pricks, who think instances can be done 1 way, and 1 way only, you have to be uber geared, or you get kicked out. It's like people don't want to see the strategy in a game, they just want to be able to auto attack everything and be handed a gold medal.

FFXI hardly pigeon holed people into roles, it was people that pigeon holed people into roles, I was one of the first people to experience a nin/blm in my party, probably because everybody else just scoffed and turned him away at the idea of it, but it ended up being one of the best parties i've ever had.

The "jobs" and the abilities within the jobs for FFXIV do not feel unique, they're not satisfying to use every 2 hits, regular attacks don't feel good either, you're forced to press a button every time you want to do a standard attack, and half of those attacks miss even when I prioritize Dexterity, the juice is definitely not worth the squeeze.
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#12 Dec 10 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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FeanaroOnPhoenix wrote:
My friend would always melee and partake in skillchains as a red mage, there were elitest people that would say that one class could only play this way, but I generally stayed away from those people.

****, if you wanna be a pld/nin and tank in a party, I would fully support your decision, and look to pick up a Theif who is able to ensure that pld/nin can keep hate.

There is so much depth in FFXI that people just don't recognize, it happens in pretty much every game. Take WoW for instance (if you've played WoW), they have the same elitest pricks, who think instances can be done 1 way, and 1 way only, you have to be uber geared, or you get kicked out. It's like people don't want to see the strategy in a game, they just want to be able to auto attack everything and be handed a gold medal.

FFXI hardly pigeon holed people into roles, it was people that pigeon holed people into roles, I was one of the first people to experience a nin/blm in my party, probably because everybody else just scoffed and turned him away at the idea of it, but it ended up being one of the best parties i've ever had.

The "jobs" and the abilities within the jobs for FFXIV do not feel unique, they're not satisfying to use every 2 hits, regular attacks don't feel good either, you're forced to press a button every time you want to do a standard attack, and half of those attacks miss even when I prioritize Dexterity, the juice is definitely not worth the squeeze.


You bring up good points. What we need is what someone mentioned above. More differentiation between "classes" not roles for them. The problem right now is that everyone plays the same. Separate their skills such that they don't seem like carbon copies and from there we can create our own roles/fun things to try out.
#13 Dec 10 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Well classes do have a design speciality to them but no mobs to really bring that to light. Remember they wanted to have party vs party battle as well as single target fights.

GLA - Single target tanking using DEF/HP
PUG - Tanking using EVA
MRD - Tanking multiple targets (trash mobs)
LNC - DD/Support
ARC - DD

If you have PUG and MRD tanking multiple mobs while a GLA is focus on the big baddy than AoE is great for curing all the tanks. Now I think it's could use some adjustment to make AoE more costly but we don't need to pigeon hold CON to being cure bots only.
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#14 Dec 10 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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the most attractive thing to me in xiv is no defined roles. its why i left xi as i couldnt get parties as i didnt have sam rdm whatever. defined roles only work if they are defined very early for example lotro and eq. in xi there wasnt definitive roles throughout and they lack balance. in xiv you can chose what you want to do rather than being forced to play a certain way and have a job at a certain level
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#15 Dec 10 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I played all mage jobs and mainly Red Maged through the end game for years so I know what the refresh **** was like, but that wasn't really the point of the post... Just like the "cycles" really wasn't all that RDM was or if it was, I must have been doing something wrong.


No, but it was enough to be a very annoying distraction.

This game does will in giving pretty much every class defensive and recovery abilities, and allowing them to spread, and thus, the duties. You worry about all these AoEs, but sacrificing versatility for distinction would be a bad direction to take, as it forces roles on certain classes, rather than making the player themselves be the distinction.

The game is new and the system will pan itself into more distinct roles as it settles. (Fencer's not in the system yet, but the job's details and abilities are there.) There's nothing preventing players from using existing mechanics to specify themselves. If people are being generalist, it's because they want to.

Making each job seem unique in execution of the varied roles is a better aim. That's not defining the job role as much as it is defining the job itself. Pushing a role on the existing job mechanics would only hurt the open-ended feel of the character customization in this game.
#16 Dec 10 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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In the .dats Conjurer will become a FAR better Nuker than Thaumaturge when level cap is raised. Thaumaturge will get more Enfeebling Magic meaning crowd control and damage over time spells. Unreleased mystic class gets most of the party buffs and might have better healing. All classes are very flexible but in the end one will always have a better advantage than the other at doing x, its far less restricting than most MMOs though.
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#17 Dec 10 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Decent

I do understand the need for freedom and I think it is nice how you can create a job you want to play but still… I feel that too much freedom takes something away from the game and the traditional Final Fantasy feel.
Even in the old FF games you had a healer, tank, nuker and DD… and they all had specific roles and tasks they did…

THIS is why I have liked FF games over other games and this is something that I feel is missing in 14…
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#18 Dec 10 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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the traditional Final Fantasy feel.


Is subjective, at best.

II, VII, VIII, X-2, XII were all customizable down to pretty much their core mechanics, with individual skills or "limits" being the only defining trait.

VI offeres its enitre spell list to all characers by the end.

The systems in X and XIII were similar but limited the function based on how long you worked at the game.

And virtually every other FF game aside from I, IV and IX offered malleability for the characters and roles to be customized.

So really, there is no "Traditional Final Fantasy Feel." What you're looking for is more the "Copy/Paste MMO Roles." The genre as a whole is over-saturated with.

No. Thank. You. At that point the game stops being defined by its players and more defined by the jobs they play. It's a terrible practice that galvanizes the potential depth of a game by turning it into a simple math problem.

X Job needs Y Gear to best fufill Z role the best.

Right now we've got one job who can be played in multiple different ways with the possibility of a wide variety of gear that can help them achieve that. If SE expands on that, the game will be much more rich and variant as a whole.

Quote:
FF games you had a healer, tank, nuker and DD… and they all had specific roles and tasks they did…


No... FF IV did that. That's IT. Every other FF game, you determined the role of the characters. If you wanted Sabin to be a Nuker, you could make him one. If you wanted Farris to be a tank, you made her one. You could complete FFI with an entire squad of white mages. (Let alone a single Red Mage.) If you so desired. NOTHING imposed the roles on the character aside form limits and, sometimes, equipment.

Not a single character in any of the FFs in my campaigns ever held a set "Role." Unless I did so for fun. (Shadow, a DD you say? Not the way I made him!)

My FFXII campaign? All share the healing role, all split the tanking role, and the damage role. And it DOMINATED. Same goes for pretty much the majority of my campaigns. Hybrids easy to adjust on the top of the hat. Probably one of the only reasons why I liked FFX's and FFXIII's system was because you could either change characters or changes roles on the fly.

But no, the only one who really applied that 'traditional feel' was you, not the game's development itself. FFXIV should properly reflect that freedom, and leave that sort of decision up to the players themselves on a player by player basis.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 1:00pm by Hyrist
#19 Dec 10 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Default
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The issue is not the need for specific classes, but communication and a lack luster targeting system.

Communication when you join a pt is vital to running it in a form other then complete chaos. melee should all have voke/taunt to keep mobs of of mages. Mages have cure/sacrifice to aoe cure. these are basic roles of the diciplenes.

For precise specifics, all it takes is a quick conversation of what is needed, when you join the pt actually tell them that you plan to focus on heals, debuffs or nukes.

As for AOE, well it is a good thing. Alot of the mobs use aoes also, and single target heals just prove that some are not over their ffxi experience. perhaps there will be a need when hnms are out, to control hate and etc but in general its ok. By the way, even ffxi had aoe spells, curaga, protectra, shellga, etcga. They even released a job that turned everything into ga's.

Remove AOE, that is a very selfish thing to suggest. if you dont like it, then you dont use it, but dont make everyone else suffer just because you think you have some skill.

In this game, to use ffxi lables: every mage is a rdm. every melee is a tank and going from tank, dd or main heal is just a macro away (to set spells/abilities and gear).

in the end, this is less about class roles and more about ego: you want to be the hero who saved the day with a well placed cure.... well the epic well placed cure is once in a blue moon, and every death is from a cure 1 second too late.

oh and this is from someone with 75+ pld thf rng whm blm smn brd bst blu on my main char and rdm@69 on another char.
i have years of experience in all the party roles, so how about you learn the other roles such as dd or tank first hand before your so quick to pigeon hole others?

so yes, you are a noob.
#20 Dec 10 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
I think you are missing my point here...

Even when you customize your job you have a role in a party.
Now a healer in a party is 3 conjurers spamming curagas.
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#21 Dec 10 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
Quote:
the traditional Final Fantasy feel.


Is subjective, at best.

II, VII, VIII, X-2, XII were all customizable down to pretty much their core mechanics, with individual skills or "limits" being the only defining trait.

VI offeres its enitre spell list to all characers by the end.

Quote:
FF games you had a healer, tank, nuker and DD… and they all had specific roles and tasks they did…


No... FF IV did that. That's IT. Every other FF game, you determined the role of the characters.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 1:00pm by Hyrist


Let's not forget the first FF :)
#22 Dec 10 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
and woah with the hate here...
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#23 Dec 10 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
and woah with the hate here...


Yeah. Let's enjoy a good debate, but not get overly upset or anything. We're all entitled to our opinions.
#24 Dec 10 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
DemiaWinters wrote:


in the end, this is less about class roles and more about ego: you want to be the hero who saved the day with a well placed cure.... well the epic well placed cure is once in a blue moon, and every death is from a cure 1 second too late.


so yes, you are a noob.


Well, I personally play to make my character the best... I don't know why other people play it. I like when I save the day ... who doesnt?

And regards the noob comment, I was referring my noobness in ffxiv as I am not even close to rank 50 yet...

I don't mind debate and I like people with opinnions, but it seems that some take opinnions very personally.
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#25 Dec 10 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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it is because after all the years of ffxi, I can tell you are yet another whiney red mage who feels you should be special... well your not.

#26 Dec 10 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Even when you customize your job you have a role in a party.
Now a healer in a party is 3 conjurers spamming curagas.


And that's actually fine, if that's how they want to play. Now you've got stoneskin and shock spikes and Sacrafice to add variance to that, if you continue to add depth, those aoe spams for heals will be less common as opposed to other damage reducing or supporting abilities.

But truth is nothing is preventing those 3 Conjurers from occasionally rotating out nukes if the situation provides, or Debuffs if it suits the situation. Especially if your meless are smart enough to use abilities like Bloodbath. These choices shouldn't be pulled away just to make one particular person feel 'special' to the group.

What you're suggesting is to take away from the possibilities to force diversity play, which is just a lazy shortcut to solving the issue. Adding MORE to the possibilities that encourage diversity in play solves the same problem without hurting the freedoms of the players or cheapening any particular class to a single role. This will allow people to choose how to contribute to the group depending on the circumstance, instead of being told to because the mechanics are forcing them to play that role, simply because they wanted to pick up a sword instead of an axe, or a staff instead of a wand.
#27 Dec 10 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
I think it is you that is whining, I simply suggested that jobs should have more depth in them.
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#28 Dec 10 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Decent
Hyrist wrote:
[quote]

What you're suggesting is to take away from the possibilities to force diversity play, which is just a lazy shortcut to solving the issue. Adding MORE to the possibilities that encourage diversity in play solves the same problem without hurting the freedoms of the players or cheapening any particular class to a single role. This will allow people to choose how to contribute to the group depending on the circumstance, instead of being told to because the mechanics are forcing them to play that role, simply because they wanted to pick up a sword instead of an axe, or a staff instead of a wand.


Now this I think is a good idea.

Also someone mentioned communication above... I think it would be great if there was communication but so far all the parties I have joined there has been none.

I think it would be a good idea to have AOE generate more hate and be more expensive so you would really have to think if it is worth casting AOE cure instead of single one.
SO many times you see cures hit 0 for 10 people and only actually cure one person...
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#29 Dec 10 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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dyvidd wrote:
Well classes do have a design speciality to them but no mobs to really bring that to light. Remember they wanted to have party vs party battle as well as single target fights.

GLA - Single target tanking using DEF/HP
PUG - Tanking using EVA
MRD - Tanking multiple targets (trash mobs)
LNC - DD/Support
ARC - DD

If you have PUG and MRD tanking multiple mobs while a GLA is focus on the big baddy than AoE is great for curing all the tanks. Now I think it's could use some adjustment to make AoE more costly but we don't need to pigeon hold CON to being cure bots only.



I gotta say, playing gla, I LOVE tanking multiple mobs. The more they attack me, the more I can use Phalanx. for 250 tp, and zero stamina, and a 3 second cooldown, that ability is incredible for use with 2-3 mobs at once. After finding out in leves out well it works, I have actually started pulling two high blue or green mobs at once soloing. I can defeat mobs a lot faster by spamming phalanx with my shield up, than using any other tp ability. Considering I get 4 phalanx compared to any other move, and the TP cost, and the cooldown time... I just they had an additional aoe version of the ability, so I could use one or the other.
#30 Dec 10 2010 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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what I want to see is jobs played more unique compared to each other. Give them more non-sharable abilities. Say for example give pug a really awesome evasion ability, that would be way too good added to gladiator skills, but is fine on its own. What really bugs me is weapon skills, which are all basically damage + buff/debuff and interchangeable.
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#31 Dec 10 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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I think it is you that is whining, I simply suggested that jobs should have more depth in them.


No, actually you requested the opposite. You basically described your desires to reduce each job to a shallow stereotypical 'role' with a touch of individual flare, like every other bread and butter MMO out there.

I'd rather see the depth be brought more into how these jobs interact, than individualist based 'roles'. Something better to emphasis the concept of 'team' among the players that is beyond "You, you're healer, you, your tank. The rest of you are DDs, except for this guy who just dies so we can pull without trouble."

That's what I want to avoid here. Adding depth to the actual classes themselves, while keeping variability, I've not no problem with.
#32 Dec 10 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Also someone mentioned communication above... I think it would be great if there was communication but so far all the parties I have joined there has been none.


Honestly, I'd like to see supported voice chat so it's faster.

More reason to use Battle Regiment (I believe twice today I've described a Chrono Trigger style ability combination system would really be nice.) And that would encourage more communication, or at least more teamwork.

They would have to make the combined abilities powerful though. Enough to warrant the time preparing and executing them.
#33 Dec 10 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Default
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LeilaniWildfire wrote:
I think it is you that is whining, I simply suggested that jobs should have more depth in them.

wahh!!!!! i cant be the special healer! wahhh!!!!
Wahhh!!!! i want to restrict other players so i can look uber... wahhh! wahhh!

in FFXI, i was special... why cant SE nerf everybody so i can look good again??? wahh wahhh...


oh stfu already or should we call the wahmbulance for you? ****...

LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Even in the old FF games you had a healer, tank, nuker and DD… and they all had specific roles and tasks they did…

yea.. in ff2(snes)/4(JP version) sometimes the healer was the smn(Rydia), rng/whm(rosa) or even the pld(Cecil).. not locked by jobs...
half the other ff games had customizable abilities or what have you, so it was based on personal choice... you know that thing your trying to remove from others...

LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Well, I personally play to make my character the best... I don't know why other people play it. I like when I save the day ... who doesnt?

thats nice,... really... does it give you that nice warm and fuzzy feeling that you think is so needed that the rest of us need to be nerfed? or better yet die a thousand times because your proposed changes will lead to even more deaths in game?
for every 'i saved the day' moments, there are a hundred 'oh sorry you died, lag'..

keep the aoe, lose the whiney rdm <|Yes, please!|>

bottom line: with all the things broken in this game that SE needs to fix, stroking your ego isnt one of them.
#34 Dec 10 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Winters.

Take a pill, or smoke a joint, or something.

The only one who's taking themselves too seriously right now, is you. So chill.
#35 Dec 10 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
DemiaWinters wrote:


keep the aoe, lose the whiney rdm <|Yes, please!|>



Just so you can complain a bit more, my first job to 75 was a SMN and last to lvl was PUP - I was not just a RDM and loved the variety of jobs I had.
Just because I didn't (and still don't) feel like taking my DDs and Tanks over 65 (yes I played them just to find out how they were) doesn't mean I didn't know anything about them.

It sounds to me that you have a lot more to worry about than this game...
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#36 Dec 10 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pigeonholing classes into staunch roles based upon a single ability or two = bad.

Classes having defining abilities that bring uniqueness into party play = excellent.

How you successfully intertwine the two into the same game = Impossible to gauge, for me.


This is well said, and I agree 100%. I like the idea that everyone has the same palette but depending on what abilities you equip and use, everyone paints a different picture. I have no problem with encounters that require more definitive party roles (i.e. Tank, dd, heals, support, debuffs, nukes, cc, etc.), but I'd like to have some versatility in the means by which I fulfill those roles.

In FFXI, your "skill" as a healer was primarily determined by how many people you could keep in your Haste / Refresh / Regen cycle. Paralyna / Silena / huge Cure bombs were required in some fights, but let's be honest: 99.9% of your casts as a healer in FFXI were Haste / Refresh / Regen, and if you were doing your job correctly, you were casting constantly to keep up with your cycle.


#37 Dec 10 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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More defined job roles is actually the opposite of what this game needs, it simply needs more depth in combat and more incentive to fight stronger foes. In fact, what it needs is more support for hybridizing, more specialized but open gear and the ability to flag ones' intended role.

I should be able to be an archer, equip healing spells and MP+ gear and flag myself as a healer. Conversely, I should be able to equip plate armor, equip tanking skills as a Thaumaturge and flag myself as a tank. At least, that's the general idea I got from the armory system when it was first announced. Obviously that's not how it's played out so far. Either way they swing it now it's going to have to change, I don't think the current system is working as intended.

My thoughts are simply, force people to specialize or generalize their roles, but not how they perform those roles. By doing this, you can give them the creative "make your own class" system that the development team obviously intended, without turning everyone into homogeneous do-it-yourselfers.
#38 Dec 10 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
45 posts
LeilaniWildfire wrote:

Just because I didn't (and still don't) feel like taking my DDs and Tanks over 65 (yes I played them just to find out how they were) doesn't mean I didn't know anything about them.

you took them half way up and didnt like them, yet you want to force everyone else into nice little niches. (Sorry, but 65 is only half the exp to 75, its maybe a third with the newest caps)
  • You didn't want to tank, but job 'x' should be tank.
  • you didn't want to dd, but job 'y' should be dd only..
  • you didn't list whm, but job 'z' should be a main healer...
(ok, as you mentioned, your first 75 was smn, so you probably were main heal on this as well as rdm, lol)

LeilaniWildfire wrote:

It sounds to me that you have a lot more to worry about than this game...

no, not really... i just hate people who cry for the nerf bat to others so they can feel special.

Perhaps you use a kb & mouse and dont know how bad the target system is on controller, or you just dont care. Maybe you just get into low number pts where tabing through 3 people isnt a hard task... who knows and i dont really care.

you are saying aoe should be removed, which as a thm and con, would make my game play more annoying trying to target through 15 moving people. as well as when i am tanking on gla, i will not get the cures in time as the mages would have it harder. basically the player base needs to die more so that you can feel skilled and with purpose...

you are also implying that my role in a pt should be forced upon me based on job alone, instead of what abilities i have and the members of my ls can accomplish.

As such, you are saying i should die more and have a more annoying time as is as well as being pigeon holed into certain tasks.

I disagree, your position is weak, and displays lazyness. If you really 'wanted to be the best' in a pt, try talking to your pt members and ask who is doing what and see how your pt can work together instead of asking SE to make it so you can just be job 'whatever'.
#39 Dec 10 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
RamseySylph wrote:
More defined job roles is actually the opposite of what this game needs, it simply needs more depth in combat and more incentive to fight stronger foes. In fact, what it needs is more support for hybridizing, more specialized but open gear and the ability to flag ones' intended role.

I should be able to be an archer, equip healing spells and MP+ gear and flag myself as a healer. Conversely, I should be able to equip plate armor, equip tanking skills as a Thaumaturge and flag myself as a tank. At least, that's the general idea I got from the armory system when it was first announced. Obviously that's not how it's played out so far. Either way they swing it now it's going to have to change, I don't think the current system is working as intended.

My thoughts are simply, force people to specialize or generalize their roles, but not how they perform those roles. By doing this, you can give them the creative "make your own class" system that the development team obviously intended, without turning everyone into homogeneous do-it-yourselfers.


I agree with this completely. Harder encounters will lead to people taking on roles. I don't want to play the same role in every party, however. I like the flexibility. The last thing I want is for this game to turn into XI where no one would invite me to a party because I preferred to play BLU/WHM rather than BLU/NIN.

***** pigeonholing. Let people tell the party themselves - "I specialize in debuffing and emergency heals" or "I specialize in buffs and DoT" or "I am a nuker" or "I am main heal" or "I will tank and deliver pot debuffs" - I don't want people to be like "she is a conjurer. HEAL."



Edited, Dec 10th 2010 11:36am by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#40 Dec 10 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
Olorinus the Vile wrote:


***** pigeonholing. Let people tell the party themselves - "I specialize in debuffing and emergency heals" or "I specialize in buffs and DoT" or "I am a nuker" or "I am main heal" or "I will tank and deliver pot debuffs" - I don't want people to be like "she is a conjurer. HEAL."



Edited, Dec 10th 2010 11:36am by Olorinus



I agree - but at the moment when you do see a conjurer you do say "heal" because that's unfortunately what this game is at the moment.
I think I should have maybe ellaborated a bit saying that I am all up for free adjustment of abilities but no one is using them because the mobs, at least the ones I am still grinding on die too quick to really bother with any abilities.

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#41 Dec 10 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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9,526 posts
LeilaniWildfire wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:


***** pigeonholing. Let people tell the party themselves - "I specialize in debuffing and emergency heals" or "I specialize in buffs and DoT" or "I am a nuker" or "I am main heal" or "I will tank and deliver pot debuffs" - I don't want people to be like "she is a conjurer. HEAL."

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 11:36am by Olorinus


I agree - but at the moment when you do see a conjurer you do say "heal" because that's unfortunately what this game is at the moment.
I think I should have maybe ellaborated a bit saying that I am all up for free adjustment of abilities but no one is using them because the mobs, at least the ones I am still grinding on die too quick to really bother with any abilities.



Who made you choose those mobs to take down? Did someone put a gun to your head and say "kill coblyns"?
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#42 Dec 10 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
Olorinus the Vile wrote:


Who made you choose those mobs to take down? Did someone put a gun to your head and say "kill coblyns"?


lol well no, We have been killing stuff in behests and leves ... I haven't really done grinding that much besides a bit in Coerthas on Does and Wolfs.
I haven't actually even found the Coblyn camps yet :o
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#43 Dec 10 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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222 posts
Jobs are fine the way they are, need better party exp bonus.

I dont want to stand around looking for a party or be in a party standing around cause we need a tank. enmity is buggy as well right now.
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#44 Dec 10 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
RamseySylph wrote:
More defined job roles is actually the opposite of what this game needs, it simply needs more depth in combat and more incentive to fight stronger foes. In fact, what it needs is more support for hybridizing, more specialized but open gear and the ability to flag ones' intended role.

I should be able to be an archer, equip healing spells and MP+ gear and flag myself as a healer. Conversely, I should be able to equip plate armor, equip tanking skills as a Thaumaturge and flag myself as a tank. At least, that's the general idea I got from the armory system when it was first announced. Obviously that's not how it's played out so far. Either way they swing it now it's going to have to change, I don't think the current system is working as intended.

My thoughts are simply, force people to specialize or generalize their roles, but not how they perform those roles. By doing this, you can give them the creative "make your own class" system that the development team obviously intended, without turning everyone into homogeneous do-it-yourselfers.


I agree with this completely. Harder encounters will lead to people taking on roles. I don't want to play the same role in every party, however. I like the flexibility. The last thing I want is for this game to turn into XI where no one would invite me to a party because I preferred to play BLU/WHM rather than BLU/NIN.

***** pigeonholing. Let people tell the party themselves - "I specialize in debuffing and emergency heals" or "I specialize in buffs and DoT" or "I am a nuker" or "I am main heal" or "I will tank and deliver pot debuffs" - I don't want people to be like "she is a conjurer. HEAL."
Edited, Dec 10th 2010 11:36am by Olorinus


^ +1. I know the annoyance of no invites. The only invites I used to get as DNC main was from LS members...but they loved me because in a lot of situations I could main heal and at least back up and sometimes main tank at the same time.

On topic: The job system is set up to let ppl do whatever they they want, and I like it that way. I play my Pug as a counter-puncher. I tend to parry as much as I evade so my main WS are Jarring Strike and Fracture (love Fracture btw). The only time I really use another WS is Seismic Shock with Bloodbath. Am I doing it wrong? Some ppl probably think so, but I have the option of doing so. If things go back to "You need X jobs and X abilities to be in this party" again it will be a sad day.
#45 Dec 10 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
I loved partying with DNC
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#46 Dec 10 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Default
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103 posts
I love how when someone says defined the majority of you sound off with "NO I DONT WANT TO BE DEFINED BY 1 OR 2 ABILITIES".

No job in the entire **** game of xi was defined by one or two abilities. If you used and relied on one or two abilities in party play you basically sucked at your **** job. Stop whining. Yes this game needs more job definition. THM and CON are basically the same only one doesn't have absorb, pure umbral/astral spells, the other doesn't have prot/shell, and elemental spells. That's stupid, why have two different jobs anyway? I like the debuff route for thm, and the thought of mixing the abilities together to create your custom job but this buffet dining gameplay style kind of sucks.

I would like to see more defined jobs. A whitemage specialty was healing. Be it status or otherwise it was healing. A redmage specialty was enhancing self, and debuffing. It had spells that could enhance others. OMG you're helping your party mates on an mmo wtf SE!?

I agree Leilani, more specified roles would make this game SO much better. Possibly if they release other classes with more abilities itll go in the way of this, but currently for that to happen you would have to have literally 8 other choices of classes to start making classifications otherwise everyone will just level everything and there will still be this clump of non specified mess.
#47 Dec 10 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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222 posts
haife wrote:
I love how when someone says defined the majority of you sound off with "NO I DONT WANT TO BE DEFINED BY 1 OR 2 ABILITIES".

No job in the entire **** game of xi was defined by one or two abilities. If you used and relied on one or two abilities in party play you basically sucked at your **** job. Stop whining. Yes this game needs more job definition. THM and CON are basically the same only one doesn't have absorb, pure umbral/astral spells, the other doesn't have prot/shell, and elemental spells. That's stupid, why have two different jobs anyway? I like the debuff route for thm, and the thought of mixing the abilities together to create your custom job but this buffet dining gameplay style kind of sucks.

I would like to see more defined jobs. A whitemage specialty was healing. Be it status or otherwise it was healing. A redmage specialty was enhancing self, and debuffing. It had spells that could enhance others. OMG you're helping your party mates on an mmo wtf SE!?

I agree Leilani, more specified roles would make this game SO much better. Possibly if they release other classes with more abilities itll go in the way of this, but currently for that to happen you would have to have literally 8 other choices of classes to start making classifications otherwise everyone will just level everything and there will still be this clump of non specified mess.


So you want to stand around and wait for a white mage to get your party started, no thanks
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#48 Dec 10 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Default
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103 posts
except, much like in late game 11, you did not have to stand around and wait for a whitemage did you? There were capable jobs, but in tough situations where you needed a whitemage it wasn't for cure 1 2 3 4 5 or 6, but for afflatus, na's and the like. I love how you instantly jump from one extreme to another. Specialization in one thing doesn't not mean fully incapable in the next. A redmage/whm could heal just fine in most situations but it definitely wasn't it's specialization.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 3:52pm by haife
#49 Dec 10 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyrist wrote:
As a 7 year veteran of FFXI on RDM.

No. Just no.

Never, do I ever want to hear "Refresh PLZ" Again. And what you're doing is asking for just that. I'd rather the ambiguous job roles in the game than the 'blame the healer/support' game FFXI tended to do that pushed most players away from abilities and roles of healers.

Sorry but I gotta staunchly disagree with this one.


dyvidd wrote:
Well classes do have a design speciality to them but no mobs to really bring that to light. Remember they wanted to have party vs party battle as well as single target fights.

GLA - Single target tanking using DEF/HP
PUG - Tanking using EVA
MRD - Tanking multiple targets (trash mobs)
LNC - DD/Support
ARC - DD

If you have PUG and MRD tanking multiple mobs while a GLA is focus on the big baddy than AoE is great for curing all the tanks. Now I think it's could use some adjustment to make AoE more costly but we don't need to pigeon hold CON to being cure bots only.


dilthanas wrote:
the most attractive thing to me in xiv is no defined roles. its why i left xi as i couldnt get parties as i didnt have sam rdm whatever. defined roles only work if they are defined very early for example lotro and eq. in xi there wasnt definitive roles throughout and they lack balance. in xiv you can chose what you want to do rather than being forced to play a certain way and have a job at a certain level


I agree. I like the freedom I have to define my character the way I want as opposed to just a main job sub job and then because of said job in party you need to do X...yeah no thanks. I am very happy having my husband tank on his MRD while being able to cure himself with SAC and SW. While I am a CON, buffing, debuffing, and curing using cure and SAC., while I am able to melee a bit or cast offensive spells. And our duo combo is working just fine. I do not wish to see 14's jobs become like that of XI. NO thanks you!
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#50 Dec 10 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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85 posts
haife wrote:
except, much like in late game 11 you did not have to stand around and wait for a whitemage did you? There were capable jobs, but in tough situations you needed a whitemage. I love how you instantly jump from one extreme to another. Specialization in one thing doesn't not mean fully incapable in the next. A redmage/whm could heal just fine.


This is true. In some cases I joined parties that had Red Mages main healing. That was normal, but others that have worked well (though most people aren't good at it) were blue mages, dancers, summoners even puppets, sometimes bard. "WE" defined roles so roughly that they weren't accepted by the community normally. I personally tried to invite out of the norm parties.

Yes, normally I didn't get the normal awesome exp/hour that a "perfect" party would give, but the exp/hour ended up giving me more experience in a time slot because I didn't wait forever to get that whm or rdm.
#51 Dec 10 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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205 posts
As some one who does not play any of the combat classes but one, I think the hybridization and customization of the combat classes is a good and unique thing.

I play mostly as a Miner and Armorer. These roles are very, very defined in what they can and can't do and it seems like they won't ever go outside of that. Even with Armorer who works with the same base materials as a Blacksmith, if you rank up Blacksmith you won't get to make the same things as one unless you change to a Blacksmith (this is kinda explained in the class quest...good quest to I recommend seeing them).

So how fast and loose you can be with DoW and DoM class abilities is rather neat. How your armor can effect what you want to really be as well. A person can wear the same one outfit for all DoH classes, but you can switch it up so much for DoW/DoM.

It just seems like they made two sides of the game. DoM/DoW= hybrid fighters, DoH/DoL= defined crafters and gathers.
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