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A little theory craft, for crafting.Follow

#1 Dec 10 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Has anyone noticed that certain synths seem harder than others of the same rank? That they are almost unpredictable in success rate until you out rank them by far, and even then sometimes failures happen. I am sure you have and I may have a clue as to why.

As a goldsmith synthing scepters has proven to be my bane of the class itself. That at even at rank 20ish I still risk failing on a Copper scepter. I think I figured out why, the elements of the crystals used in the synth are opposing elements. Fire and Ice for copper scepter, Fire and water for silver scepter, Fire and Ice for decorated.

Can anyone else think of synths that has given alot of difficulty at basically any rank? (Look up the crystals and shards used in the synth, make the notation) Keep in mind, that you must have your element stats balanced otherwise that could scew the info as well.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 10:41am by Spyrit178
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#2 Dec 10 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Could this possibly be an example of differences between magic/craft skills or anything? Maybe which tool is being used. I'd be curious to find out if these would affect the outcome
#3 Dec 10 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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What I was thinking that if I were to change my element stats to favor the weaker of the two elements, that it would make the synth less volitile.

Can anyone confirm if these books described on this website exist?

http://ffxiv.wikia.com/wiki/Guide:Studies_on_the_Effects_of_Elements_in_Crafting

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 11:01am by Spyrit178
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#4 Dec 10 2010 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Ah, so maybe your element points can affect synths based off what shards/crystals are used? It's worth trying.
#5 Dec 10 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Hate to tell you this

but this was already known knowledge

Elements do in fact affects synthing a bit, just like stats do.

However there are other factors in it too that matter, such as training requirements, support requirements, all of which are, if missing, a pain to get around when you get higher and higher and can pretty much cause you to fail when youd succeed in any other synth.
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#6 Dec 10 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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If this was common knowledge, why hasn't it been mentioned about the opposing shards in a synth?
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#7 Dec 10 2010 at 10:21 AM Rating: Decent
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It is mentioned in almost every crafting guide, and it has been posted several times within the seperate crafting forums themselves.

People here in general tend to not discuss the specifics of crafting as often
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#8 Dec 10 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
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Links to guides?
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#9 Dec 10 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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here is one of the more detailed guides in the alchemy forums(some of the othe crafts definately dont have this kinda guide, but this stuff has been talked about in several of the crafting forums)

http://ffxiv.zam.com/wiki/State_Alchemist's_Guide_To_Alchemy
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#10 Dec 10 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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The most common, and often the strongest present elements in most alchemy synths are(from order of importance:) Water, Fire, and Lightning. Water is the basis of a huge percentage of synths that you will perform so it is recommended for synthing purposes to keep your Water Element Attribute high. Fire is the second most predominant element in Alchemy, followed by Lightning. We recommend at least spending a moderate amount of points on these two elements. The rest of the elements, Earth, Ice, and Wind are used mainly for converting Crystals to Shards, or other similar recipes, and it is not necessary to put very many, if any, points into these attributes.

The Amount of points you have in an element increases your affinity with that element. By affinity I mean, your success rate with synths involving that element will be increased, and maybe more importantly, the drop rate of Shards/Crystals of that element is increased, whether your Mining, Fishing, Harvesting, or killing Creatures.

Taken from the guide on elements, no mention of the effects of crystals and shards used in a synth that oppose each other.

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#11 Dec 10 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that certain synths seem harder than others of the same rank? That they are almost unpredictable in success rate until you out rank them by far, and even then sometimes failures happen. I am sure you have and I may have a clue as to why.

As a goldsmith synthing scepters has proven to be my bane of the class itself. That at even at rank 20ish I still risk failing on a Copper scepter. I think I figured out why, the elements of the crystals used in the synth are opposing elements. Fire and Ice for copper scepter, Fire and water for silver scepter, Fire and Ice for decorated.

Can anyone else think of synths that has given alot of difficulty at basically any rank? (Look up the crystals and shards used in the synth, make the notation) Keep in mind, that you must have your element stats balanced otherwise that could scew the info as well.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 10:41am by Spyrit178


You need training. More specifically, Inlaying Training.

And don't look at the database for rank, look at the Physical Experience you get from the Synth to get an idea of the synth rank. Electrum Earrings and Electrum Rings, both listed as r40 (supported by the local leve) but in fact Electrum Earrings is r41 and Electrum Ring is r43 based on the P.Exp gain from the synth. The database rank is just players' estimation, sometimes a bogus rank until someone post a clearer rank.

As for the element, if you're a serious crafter allocate most of your attribute into Lightning. It is the bane of all crafters, if it ever goes unstable. Basically for r44+ recipe if you hit Lightning unstable, you're very very very very very likely botch it. The element that goes unstable in the synth will be more commonly the shards you use for the synth, but ANY element can go unstable in any synth.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 9:37pm by Khornette

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 9:39pm by Khornette

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 9:40pm by Khornette
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#12 Dec 10 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Personally I do not think there is an 'opposing element system' in there. If they want to make certain syn more difficult, they can simply raise the rank. Not to mention they already have 'required training' system in work.

Also, I am not so sure about elements 'opposing' one another. You can say Fire is opposed to Water or Ice. How about Lightning? as opposed to... Wind? Earth? A reasonable system would not have only half of the elements working against each other.

Well that's just my theory though. You never know what the dev was thinking after all. :p


I have similar experience with the plates as an ARM. Even at R24 I can still fail on Bronze Plate somehow. But after I got my Sheeting Training, I notice a considerable improvement. Like others have mentioned, the recommended training is the problem for these 'fail out of no where' syns.
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#13 Dec 11 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry, elements do nothing from what I can tell, and the same goes with moon phases... There's alot of bogus info there with nothing to back it up.
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#14 Dec 11 2010 at 3:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that certain synths seem harder than others of the same rank? That they are almost unpredictable in success rate until you out rank them by far, and even then sometimes failures happen. I am sure you have and I may have a clue as to why.

As a goldsmith synthing scepters has proven to be my bane of the class itself. That at even at rank 20ish I still risk failing on a Copper scepter. I think I figured out why, the elements of the crystals used in the synth are opposing elements. Fire and Ice for copper scepter, Fire and water for silver scepter, Fire and Ice for decorated.

Can anyone else think of synths that has given alot of difficulty at basically any rank? (Look up the crystals and shards used in the synth, make the notation) Keep in mind, that you must have your element stats balanced otherwise that could scew the info as well.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 10:41am by Spyrit178


You need training. More specifically, Inlaying Training.

And don't look at the database for rank, look at the Physical Experience you get from the Synth to get an idea of the synth rank. Electrum Earrings and Electrum Rings, both listed as r40 (supported by the local leve) but in fact Electrum Earrings is r41 and Electrum Ring is r43 based on the P.Exp gain from the synth. The database rank is just players' estimation, sometimes a bogus rank until someone post a clearer rank.

As for the element, if you're a serious crafter allocate most of your attribute into Lightning. It is the bane of all crafters, if it ever goes unstable. Basically for r44+ recipe if you hit Lightning unstable, you're very very very very very likely botch it. The element that goes unstable in the synth will be more commonly the shards you use for the synth, but ANY element can go unstable in any synth.


I find earth and wind to be the worst. Lightning cuts progress gains which can be dangerous, but earth and wind boost durability loss which is often worse.

Stacking points into a particular element doesn't appear to reduce the likelihood of that element destabilizing. I have (and have had since I started spending elemental affinity points) a heavy focus on earth and wind and those elements destabilize all the time for me.
#15 Dec 11 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that certain synths seem harder than others of the same rank? That they are almost unpredictable in success rate until you out rank them by far, and even then sometimes failures happen. I am sure you have and I may have a clue as to why.

As a goldsmith synthing scepters has proven to be my bane of the class itself. That at even at rank 20ish I still risk failing on a Copper scepter. I think I figured out why, the elements of the crystals used in the synth are opposing elements. Fire and Ice for copper scepter, Fire and water for silver scepter, Fire and Ice for decorated.

Can anyone else think of synths that has given alot of difficulty at basically any rank? (Look up the crystals and shards used in the synth, make the notation) Keep in mind, that you must have your element stats balanced otherwise that could scew the info as well.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 10:41am by Spyrit178


You need training. More specifically, Inlaying Training.

And don't look at the database for rank, look at the Physical Experience you get from the Synth to get an idea of the synth rank. Electrum Earrings and Electrum Rings, both listed as r40 (supported by the local leve) but in fact Electrum Earrings is r41 and Electrum Ring is r43 based on the P.Exp gain from the synth. The database rank is just players' estimation, sometimes a bogus rank until someone post a clearer rank.

As for the element, if you're a serious crafter allocate most of your attribute into Lightning. It is the bane of all crafters, if it ever goes unstable. Basically for r44+ recipe if you hit Lightning unstable, you're very very very very very likely botch it. The element that goes unstable in the synth will be more commonly the shards you use for the synth, but ANY element can go unstable in any synth.


I find earth and wind to be the worst. Lightning cuts progress gains which can be dangerous, but earth and wind boost durability loss which is often worse.

Stacking points into a particular element doesn't appear to reduce the likelihood of that element destabilizing. I have (and have had since I started spending elemental affinity points) a heavy focus on earth and wind and those elements destabilize all the time for me.


Maybe if our affinities are too strong they can destabilize as well? Mine are primarily wind and fire, and they become unstable more than any mothers for me. I figured it was because of the shards that maybe the matching element had a higher chance to become unstable, but perhaps affinity plays a part as well
#16 Dec 11 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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The trouble is what's not being understood is the mixxing of opposing elements in a synth. People are saying they boosted both Earth and Wind, and are strill having trouble, of course there is trouble because wind is still stronger than earth with equal amount of points being allocated into both.

However if you were to put more points into the weaker element earth, building its resistance to wind, destablization could possibly happen less. Basically its like mixxing oil and water, when harnassing opposing elements.

Think about this, how does a caster use a spell of a weaker element to a mobs element. They stack their affinity higher than the mobs magic defense towards that element, aka the use of elemental staves. Now using the strongest opposing element should be used to maximumize damage that's a given, however in order to meet with less resistance of the weaker element, you build its affinity higher than the mobs magic defense towards that element.

I feel that that same scenario could exist within the realm of crafting. If it wasn't a factor, they wouldnt of change any element becoming unstable, to the two elements directly involved in the synth via the shards and crystals.



Edited, Dec 11th 2010 9:29am by Spyrit178

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 10:04am by Spyrit178
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#17 Dec 11 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Default
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Kazuyakun wrote:
Sorry, elements do nothing from what I can tell, and the same goes with moon phases... There's alot of bogus info there with nothing to back it up.


Do you have anything to back this up? No? You're 1 step behind then. They have "something" with logical results and theory backed up by various clues in the game. You have nothing with no results.
#18 Dec 11 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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zoltanrs wrote:
Kazuyakun wrote:
Sorry, elements do nothing from what I can tell, and the same goes with moon phases... There's alot of bogus info there with nothing to back it up.


Do you have anything to back this up? No? You're 1 step behind then. They have "something" with logical results and theory backed up by various clues in the game. You have nothing with no results.


As it currently is, nobody has anything to back themselves up. OP said case was already explained by the lack of Training and has nothing to do with element affinity. Although I believe affinity play some points in element instability, SE didn't state that outright either.
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#19 Dec 11 2010 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Well to be quite honest, we don't even know if crafting is bugged at this point. I'm basing what I know how elements worked in FFXI, and how you overcame the weaker element issue.

Which according to these books in the game:

"The Three Conquests, Boundless and Unwavering."

Earth grounds Lightning.
Water erodes Earth.
Lightning boils Water.

"The Three Submissions, Timeless and Unending."

Fire is extinguished by Wind.
Ice is melted by Fire.
Wind is obstructed by Ice.

Provided these books can be found on live.

As far as Inlaying training, I'm going with mat trainings first on all my craftering classes, because that's what I use the most. And since mats are a consumable commedity, they make a better profit.



Edited, Dec 11th 2010 10:35pm by Spyrit178
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#20 Dec 12 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
As far as Inlaying training, I'm going with mat trainings first on all my craftering classes, because that's what I use the most. And since mats are a consumable commedity, they make a better profit.



Edited, Dec 11th 2010 10:35pm by Spyrit178


The point is that precisely because you didn't get Inlaying Training, Copper Scepter still blow up for you. It's this instance that Training is the problem here and not Elemental Affinity or whatever, because Training is clearly understood but Elemental Affinity in this instance is still a rumour.
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#21 Dec 12 2010 at 1:29 AM Rating: Decent
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zoltanrs wrote:
Kazuyakun wrote:
Sorry, elements do nothing from what I can tell, and the same goes with moon phases... There's alot of bogus info there with nothing to back it up.


Do you have anything to back this up? No? You're 1 step behind then. They have "something" with logical results and theory backed up by various clues in the game. You have nothing with no results.


I'm not here to stop the discovery process or anything, but I need to step in for a second:

The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim, never the person questioning it.

If I say X is true, then it is up to me to prove my claim with evidence, not up to someone else to dig up evidence that proves me wrong. A claim, by default, is untrue until proven -- it is not true until proven false; it would make no sense otherwise. Finally, data are proof, data confirm a theory, not clues.

That is all I wanted to say. *steps back out*
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#22 Dec 12 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
As far as Inlaying training, I'm going with mat trainings first on all my craftering classes, because that's what I use the most. And since mats are a consumable commedity, they make a better profit.



Edited, Dec 11th 2010 10:35pm by Spyrit178


The point is that precisely because you didn't get Inlaying Training, Copper Scepter still blow up for you. It's this instance that Training is the problem here and not Elemental Affinity or whatever, because Training is clearly understood but Elemental Affinity in this instance is still a rumour.


I don't have inlay training and I have yet to blow up a sceptre. =P

That being said, I, personally, think the elemental affinity theory is a bunch of hot air. You will, however, always get people who switch and suddenly seem to get "lucky" but I'm guessing it could be that they just got lucky on their own as the crafting systems seems to give out lucky moments and unlucky ones every now and again.
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#23 Dec 12 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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shinichoco wrote:
Khornette wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
As far as Inlaying training, I'm going with mat trainings first on all my craftering classes, because that's what I use the most. And since mats are a consumable commedity, they make a better profit.



Edited, Dec 11th 2010 10:35pm by Spyrit178


The point is that precisely because you didn't get Inlaying Training, Copper Scepter still blow up for you. It's this instance that Training is the problem here and not Elemental Affinity or whatever, because Training is clearly understood but Elemental Affinity in this instance is still a rumour.


I don't have inlay training and I have yet to blow up a sceptre. =P

That being said, I, personally, think the elemental affinity theory is a bunch of hot air. You will, however, always get people who switch and suddenly seem to get "lucky" but I'm guessing it could be that they just got lucky on their own as the crafting systems seems to give out lucky moments and unlucky ones every now and again.



it isnt a bunch of hot air

but it isnt as huge an impact as some people may assume it is
its a small impact, but it is an impact, its not gonna make the difference between uber failing and succeeding on synths that you cant do normaly due to lack of training or support
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#24 Dec 12 2010 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Something that has been overlooked in this discussion that might have more to with the problem the OP was having would be Craft and M.Craft levels or the governing attribute of the synth. Both do play a role in chances of success as SE laid out in this lodestone post.

If the OP could post their current Craft and M.Craft levels it might give us a clue as to what type of synth Copper Scepter is. Though it could be a combination of lack of training, a lower Craft or M.Craft, and governing attribute. There is still much to learn about DoH mechanics.

Edited, Dec 12th 2010 11:08pm by Cthugga
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#25 Dec 12 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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Vedis wrote:


but it isnt as huge an impact as some people may assume it is
its a small impact, but it is an impact, its not gonna make the difference between uber failing and succeeding on synths that you cant do normaly due to lack of training or support


And you have documented proof in the forms of controlled tests over time to prove this? Link?
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#26 Dec 12 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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shinichoco wrote:
Vedis wrote:


but it isnt as huge an impact as some people may assume it is
its a small impact, but it is an impact, its not gonna make the difference between uber failing and succeeding on synths that you cant do normaly due to lack of training or support


And you have documented proof in the forms of controlled tests over time to prove this? Link?


not gonna bother running tests, im going off personal experience from when i actualy started to raise specific elements and saw their impact

again, not a huge impact, but there was one


can you provide proof and tests proving they dont help? (it works both ways you know)
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