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Is an overhaul of the phys lvl / class lvl system needed?Follow

#1 Dec 10 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Now that the overhaul of game mechanics is on the table, i thought it would be ok to bring this up. And hopefully get some feedback/criticism/new ideas/discussion on the current system and the changes that could take place.

What physical level are you?
For a while i've been thinking about how unintuitive the physical level system is. I can't even remember what my physical level is. I hardly notice it in game, and sometimes find myself needing to allocate physical attribute points that i received from a physical level up that i received days ago.

With stats being scaled down to whatever level your class is, it pretty much makes physical level an inconvenience other than a good idea. SE could have just let you allocate stats based on your class level, and you would switch stat sets every time you change classes. Basically, it feels like this system is FFXI with an additional layer on top.

Physical level should matter.
What if we take the physical level and tie it to the storyline quests, and the enemy con system/overall strength of your character? I never understood why your class rank is what determines your progression in the main storyline. Especially with the flexibility of XIV's class system, it seems very punishing if you decide to change your class.

Say you finish the rank 20 storyline quest, but want to level up a different class. Well now you have to level that other class to 20 and more to see the next piece of content. Seems a lot like XI job system, right?

Instead, if your physical level determined your content progression, you would always be working toward new content, regardless of which class you were playing on at a given time.

You could switch from your rank 20 pugilist, to your rank 4 lancer, and still withstand attacks from enemies that are within your physical level range. Your would be missing a lot of lancer abilities, but you could still be a lancer, and work towards higher lancer class levels/skills, without having to repeat the content you just went through with your pugilist.

What about crafters and gatherers?
Give them some attack abilities. Their abilities wouldn't be as strong as the pure DoW and DoM classes, but they would still be able to hold their own against a mob close to their physical level.

Why?
This would open the door for making combat centered content accessible for everyone. Anyone could raise their physical level how they see fit, and still be able to be a part of combat related mission/quests/NMs/etc.

You could give DoH and DoL abilities that would be unique and desired in exp parties. You could also give DoW and DoM crafting abilities and bonuses that they would be able to use on DoH and DoL classes. (Think: a gladiator getting a blacksmithing bonus trait at rank 30)


Anyway, i have more to say, but i'd like to see where the discussion goes.
#2 Dec 10 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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As long as I can still duo with my husband without problems IDC what they do. Just don't force me to party if I don't want to.
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#3 Dec 10 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I think physical level should be done away with completely, and stat reallocation as well. The additional penalty of "not having the right stats" is too much. Considering that if you want to switch between the classes effectively you will also have to carry a 2nd set of gear and consumables, AND your cooldowns are reset to max, AND you have to take the time to rearrange your skills. I think that's a good enough penalty.

Elemental stats reallocation SHOULD still be kept though, as is. It provides a quirky way of customizing your character, without completely gimping you for a day if you want to switch from a melee class to a mage class.
#4 Dec 10 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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LillithaFenimore wrote:
As long as I can still duo with my husband without problems IDC what they do. Just don't force me to party if I don't want to.


Good point. When i think of the changes that could be made, i think it would make the game more accessible for all types of playstyles. If you wanted to level only crafting jobs, you could, and still be able to experience solo or group oriented combat. So it would make for a better duo/trio experience if one of your friends was mainly a crafter, but wanted to come and help out with a NM.
#5 Dec 10 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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No, an overhaul isn't needed. It's not a complicated system, and it's a system that rewards diversity. Even moreso now that xp earned for combat classes is a function of your current class rank.

I think it would be nice if SE would add the ability to maintain 2 or maybe even 3 stat presets that you could switch between without having to go through the process of reallocating stats, but a change like that doesn't constitute an overhaul.
#6 Dec 10 2010 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
I think physical level should be done away with completely, and stat reallocation as well. The additional penalty of "not having the right stats" is too much. Considering that if you want to switch between the classes effectively you will also have to carry a 2nd set of gear and consumables, AND your cooldowns are reset to max, AND you have to take the time to rearrange your skills. I think that's a good enough penalty.

Elemental stats reallocation SHOULD still be kept though, as is. It provides a quirky way of customizing your character, without completely gimping you for a day if you want to switch from a melee class to a mage class.


I agree with you; if rank is the only thing that matters with regard to storyline, and if rank determines the cap of your stats, and if item effectiveness is based upon rank, then physical level seems unnecessary as it currently exists.

By the time anyone has one rank 50 character, they should be around physical level 50 as well. This is a game that encourages people to play at least a few different classes, so the average player is just going to be physical level 50 over the course of several classes, anyway... it just doesn't seem like it warrants being there in one's stats just to say "level 50" for a majority of the time they are going to be playing the game.

Change it or scrap it; we have no need for vestigial FFXIV organs.
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#7 Dec 10 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:

I agree with you; if rank is the only thing that matters with regard to storyline, and if rank determines the cap of your stats, and if item effectiveness is based upon rank, then physical level seems unnecessary as it currently exists.


I agree also, but wouldn't getting rid of the physical level all together make FFXIV too much like FFXI?

That's not necessarily a bad thing, as i really like XI's job system. But personally i'd like to see something different for XIV.
#8 Dec 10 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
I agree with you; if rank is the only thing that matters with regard to storyline, and if rank determines the cap of your stats, and if item effectiveness is based upon rank, then physical level seems unnecessary as it currently exists.

By the time anyone has one rank 50 character, they should be around physical level 50 as well. This is a game that encourages people to play at least a few different classes, so the average player is just going to be physical level 50 over the course of several classes, anyway... it just doesn't seem like it warrants being there in one's stats just to say "level 50" for a majority of the time they are going to be playing the game.

Change it or scrap it; we have no need for vestigial FFXIV organs.


I get what they were trying to do with physical level: make it so that when you pick up a 2nd class, it's easier to level because you get higher-than-otherwise stats for having leveled another class.

The thing is, though, that if you already have a high level class, then you have a huge advantage when leveling another class. You have the money to get good items (or simply equip your high rank ones), you know where you need to level, and if you have appropriate skills, you can use them for whatever class you're leveling.

I think the disadvantages of keeping a physical level outweigh the advantages. It actually RESTRICTS class switching in the same way subjobs were restricted in FFXI. If you didn't have optimal subs (in FFXIV's case, optimal stat allocation), you were gimp.
#9 Dec 10 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think an overhaul is needed either. I still have the feeling(as do others I talk to) that stats & some of the other battle mechanics aren't working right or are flat-out broke in some cases. It also feels like there were always some plans to have DoH/DoL have some uses in battle.(Still says that blacksmiths can debilitate enemies constructed of metal on the main site.) Dunno if that's been forgotten and scrapped or just not implemented yet. Overall it feels like some things are planned and not in the game yet and changes may be coming to how things work. I can't say much for what I think is needed here when I don't know exactly what's missing that should be there and how the recent changes will affect the system.

I'm really at a loss for ideas on this one because I know the game is incomplete. Though I, and I think most, agree that re-distributing stats is a real pain in the ***. They could do something to make that less painful.
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#10 Dec 10 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Good
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You could as well say that combat skills in XI were unnecessary.

It may be true, but it's not like it's something that they should be working on with million other things to deal with.

The class change system really needs some kind of downside to it or we'll all be invincible. Although with the way macro system currently works it hasn't really started off yet.

They shouldn't make class level matter more though. As long as we can affect it it shouldn't be the main form of getting stronger. Otherwise the consequences for picking the wrong stats are just too punishing.
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#11 Dec 10 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
I think physical level should be done away with completely, and stat reallocation as well. The additional penalty of "not having the right stats" is too much. Considering that if you want to switch between the classes effectively you will also have to carry a 2nd set of gear and consumables, AND your cooldowns are reset to max, AND you have to take the time to rearrange your skills. I think that's a good enough penalty.

Elemental stats reallocation SHOULD still be kept though, as is. It provides a quirky way of customizing your character, without completely gimping you for a day if you want to switch from a melee class to a mage class.


I too agree with you.
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#12 Dec 10 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
I don't think an overhaul is needed either. I still have the feeling... that stats & some of the other battle mechanics aren't working right or are flat-out broke in some cases....Dunno if that's been forgotten and scrapped or just not implemented yet.


Oh, well I understood "overhaul" to mean "make necessary repairs," so I think most people here (including you) are saying the same thing. If the system currently vacillates between "not working right" and "flat-out broken," I think that an overhaul, by definition, is needed. XD
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#13 Dec 10 2010 at 11:05 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
The class change system really needs some kind of downside to it or we'll all be invincible. Although with the way macro system currently works it hasn't really started off yet.


Isn't having to carry additional gear and consumable sets a downside?
How about having cooldowns reset?
How about having non-optimal gear if you don't carry gear sets?
How about having to reassign skills and traits?
#14 Dec 10 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Isn't having to carry additional gear and consumable sets a downside?
How about having cooldowns reset?
How about having non-optimal gear if you don't carry gear sets?
How about having to reassign skills and traits?


1.Without situational gear swaps? Not really.
2.That's the least they should do to keep us from being OP.
3.Why not?
4.Macro it.
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#15 Dec 10 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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If they're going to keep physical level they should make it a bit more meaningful. Some quick ideas off the top of my head would be phys level requirements for quests or advanced jobs (sort of like fame), and spells/abilities that are obtained at a certain physical level in addition to the current rank spells/abilities. Perhaps accessories could have an optimal physical level instead of optimal rank, so getting a high physical level would entitle you to wear that uber quest ring on any job. FFXI ended up making alot of low rank accessories obtainable from beating the expansion storylines, this could be something similar. Maybe even make it so you could turn some physical levels into rank levels (like 5 phys levels = one rank level up), so it could act as a sort of buffer for sp to get you started on lower ranking jobs. I know that last one sounds crazy but there's a lot of jobs and only a maximum of 50 physical levels you could trade in for rank levels, you'd have to use that 300k exp level very wisely. In the same vein, maybe you could lose physical exp when you die as a penalty.
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#16 Dec 10 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I like the physical level and stat attribution.

I like the feeling of progression when your stats increase and when you gain levels. For some reason, I hate how some games limit customization to how you dress your character. I.e. all rogues have the same str, dex, vit, etc. but you can make a dex build or str build -- but it is based on your gear.

To me, gear on a character is meant to enhance my qualities or cover my weakspots, not define me.

That's just my perception on it all, and also why I usually quit MMOs once I hit max level. I feel the gear progression is more "artificial" than the stats/level one that lead there. FFXI with the merit system, I feel, was a great compromise. The FFXIV system feels like FFXI's merits-straight-at-level1. That's a good thing, imho.
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#17 Dec 10 2010 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
1.Without situational gear swaps? Not really.
2.That's the least they should do to keep us from being OP.
3.Why not?
4.Macro it.


Who's to say that we won't have situational gear swaps? End-game doesn't exist in FFXIV yet, we don't know if we'll need certain gear or high quality gear to do some things.

I think in its current iteration, swapping between different classes will be too restricted because of the stats "penalty". Having to spend a day if you want to convert from mage to melee class is not ok and almost defeats the purpose of being able to level multiple class types.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 12:17am by Wolfums
#18 Dec 10 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know where you got the impression that because rank cap attribute, Physical Level is not meaningful. This is only true if your P.Level is dramatically higher than your Rank. By the time you hit R40+ of any classes, you will find that P.Level 50 means nothing in providing points for your 2-3 useful attributes. At R50 PLVL 50, you can only cap 1 single attribute and 1 other attribute at around 141, with no points in any other attributes. Do not forget that any DoH/DoL use 2 different attributes, DoW use 3 attributes and DoM use 4 attributes.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 12:23am by Khornette
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#19 Dec 10 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
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Docent42 wrote:
Personally I like the physical level and stat attribution.

I like the feeling of progression when your stats increase and when you gain levels. For some reason, I hate how some games limit customization to how you dress your character. I.e. all rogues have the same str, dex, vit, etc. but you can make a dex build or str build -- but it is based on your gear.


I like the stat allocation too. But the physical experience system seems lacking, and not very well thought out. It feels very last minute.

"Oh, lets also include a physical level with stats that you can allocate."
"Ok, we'll just tack on physical exp to everything you do."
"How much?"
"Doesn't matter lol."
#20 Dec 10 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think a good compromise would be to have full stats reset on a one or two hour cooldown.
#21 Dec 10 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Who's to say that we won't have situational gear swaps?


Well, the limitations SE has put in place kind of hint it being that way. I also don't see why it would make sense to change them, with the way people feel about the whole thing (even if it could be beneficial for the end-game as a whole).

Quote:
I think in its current iteration, swapping between different classes will be too restricted because of the stats "penalty".


As far as I'm aware, that penalty only exists in your mind. As people have said, point allocation doesn't really matter as much as it could. If you want to be able to change classes on the fly, not having perfect stats for every occasion sounds like a good exchange to me. You'd still be more effective than if you just played one class with perfect stats, but it wouldn't be in the OP "I can be the best at everything"-range.

Just something to consider.
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#22 Dec 11 2010 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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paranoidandriod wrote:
Perhaps accessories could have an optimal physical level instead of optimal rank, so getting a high physical level would entitle you to wear that uber quest ring on any job. FFXI ended up making alot of low rank accessories obtainable from beating the expansion storylines, this could be something similar.


I like this idea also. Having physical level restrictions on gear would make a lot of sense. Gear should still favor certain classes over others, i like that part of the current system.

If physical level were the dominant level in the game, instead of rank level, having gear associated to physical level would make gear progression as you level a lot easier. Right now, it's just confusing and not very clear.
#23 Dec 11 2010 at 12:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I don't think an overhaul is needed either. I still have the feeling... that stats & some of the other battle mechanics aren't working right or are flat-out broke in some cases....Dunno if that's been forgotten and scrapped or just not implemented yet.


Oh, well I understood "overhaul" to mean "make necessary repairs," so I think most people here (including you) are saying the same thing. If the system currently vacillates between "not working right" and "flat-out broken," I think that an overhaul, by definition, is needed. XD


An overhaul is stripping everything down to it's components and starting over. It's not needed in this case. On one side of the scale you've got tweaking...on the other side you've got an overhaul. The system needs tweaking, not a teardown and rebuild.
#24 Dec 11 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Decent
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For a game that claims to encourage players to get a taste of everything that is out there, they really did a bang up job handicapping those with many classes.

For DoL&H, the physical level increases much higher than the ranks. This creates a top-heavy situation where both the physical and class levels are not in harmony. I agree with those who suggest removing the physical aspect, allocations and all, completely and instead allowing class ranks their own ladder of stat numbers per level.
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#25 Dec 11 2010 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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LyleVertigo wrote:
For DoL&H, the physical level increases much higher than the ranks. This creates a top-heavy situation where both the physical and class levels are not in harmony. I agree with those who suggest removing the physical aspect, allocations and all, completely and instead allowing class ranks their own ladder of stat numbers per level.


Did you read what I've written? P.Lvl 50 provide peanuts to allocate stat cap. That trouble is only for those who don't have a reasonable high rank in ANY class. If anything, the current P.Lvl favours those with many low rank classes, because you can cap all your attributes. For those with few high rank classes, we can't cap any of our attribute at all. My Vit is uncapped, my Dex will be uncapped in a rank or two, and my P.Lvl is stuck i.e. no more allocation points, see? I have to use 3 pair of stat boost rings for different classes, because I can not cap my attributes.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 8:25am by Khornette
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#26 Dec 11 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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There is more to a system's worthiness than whether it applies to the storyline or not.

I like analogies, so let's try one. Track. You, never actually running track before, train for the 100 m dash. In order to be competitive, you had to train a lot, increasing your endurance, speed, whatnot. Here you're increasing your physical level to be competitive while increasing your dash ranks. Then you also want to run hurdles. Training to run hurdles with your experience in dash will be much easier than training from square one. There's the separation of ranks and physical levels for you.

If they wanted to, I'm sure they could have included physical level in there: Must be rank 15 and physical level 20. But that's two things to keep track of. Not to mention unnecessary, saying you need to be a specific rank generally means you've got a physical level. How many people have a skill rank higher than their physical level?

And, as a crafter, I have no need for combat skills. If I wanted to fight, I wouldn't be in a crafting job.
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#27 Dec 11 2010 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Right now, aside from making superhero rank 1 classes due to their capped stats, physical level doesn't do much. I'd rather see it done away with, but if they want to actually have it do something important, thats fine too. I really think it was added in because of the way SP worked, so that when you killed stuff you would Exp, and not nothing.
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#28 Dec 11 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
For DoL&H, the physical level increases much higher than the ranks. This creates a top-heavy situation where both the physical and class levels are not in harmony. I agree with those who suggest removing the physical aspect, allocations and all, completely and instead allowing class ranks their own ladder of stat numbers per level.


Did you read what I've written? P.Lvl 50 provide peanuts to allocate stat cap. That trouble is only for those who don't have a reasonable high rank in ANY class. If anything, the current P.Lvl favours those with many low rank classes, because you can cap all your attributes. For those with few high rank classes, we can't cap any of our attribute at all. My Vit is uncapped, my Dex will be uncapped in a rank or two, and my P.Lvl is stuck i.e. no more allocation points, see? I have to use 3 pair of stat boost rings for different classes, because I can not cap my attributes.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 8:25am by Khornette


You failed to understand what I'm getting at. Once your multiple, varied classes are high you are forced to keep your attributes spread out or attempt to adjust them whenever you need to change classes (which is impossible).
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#29 Dec 11 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Personally, if they are going to change things, I'd like them to do away with stat allocation, at least in its current form. I happen to agree with those saying that when you get to the point that you have several classes at high levels it becomes discouraging to have your stats weird because they are based on, say, a DoW class and you also have a high level DoM class. Personally, I think stat allocation is a great thing for a system where each character can only be one class ever. I don't much like it for this type of system that includes one character having the ability to do everything.

Now, if stats were tied to the job, so that you allocated them each time you equipped a new job and the game remembered how you did so for that job, that might be different. However, without that ability I would prefer a job change system like XI, although I'm perfectly happy to have them leave the way it is changed alone. (i.e. You don't need to go talk to a specific person like you did in XI, switching weapons still does the trick.)

As far as other changes, I'd like to see them take another look at how SP/EXP is assigned. I'm not a fan of it working differently based on what rank you are. This is not because I'm all "Waaaah! It takes too long to level." This is because I just find it awkward to get different SP for killing an even level mob at R10 than I do for killing an even level mob at R30. In my opinion, it should be the same regardless. I understand why they did what they did there, but I think it was the wrong move. It seems to me that the original team was working in extremes, taking giant leaps, instead of tweaking things a little at a time until they got it right. It would be nice if the new team took another look at this and maybe balanced it out a little more.

Overall, I'm expecting this to be a totally different game by the time they actually release the PS3 version than it was at launch. I'm reserving judgment on if that is a good thing or not. (Read: if I will like the game when they are done) All we can do is take it a day at a time and see what happens.
#30 Dec 11 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
Once your multiple, varied classes are high you are forced to keep your attributes spread out or attempt to adjust them whenever you need to change classes (which is impossible).

Nobody is FORCING you to do it. You're not held at gunpoint by SE to reallocate your stats purely into STR when on PUG, and purely into VIT when on GLA, or whatever.

Why don't you assign your stats the way you want, and play all your classes with the same stat allocation and give it a try? People obsess over having the right stats on the right jobs, but have you even TRIED making a "all stats at 80, but 100 in str" build and give it a shot before? That's what I've been doing since day one and it's working perfectly fine for me so far -- haven't used the reallocate button once yet.
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#31 Dec 11 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Docent42 wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Once your multiple, varied classes are high you are forced to keep your attributes spread out or attempt to adjust them whenever you need to change classes (which is impossible).

Nobody is FORCING you to do it. You're not held at gunpoint by SE to reallocate your stats purely into STR when on PUG, and purely into VIT when on GLA, or whatever.

Why don't you assign your stats the way you want, and play all your classes with the same stat allocation and give it a try? People obsess over having the right stats on the right jobs, but have you even TRIED making a "all stats at 80, but 100 in str" build and give it a shot before? That's what I've been doing since day one and it's working perfectly fine for me so far -- haven't used the reallocate button once yet.



Umm.....that's what I been doing, meerly stating that for those with multiple classes will not be able to reallocate their stats efficiently due to how often one will change classes.
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#32 Dec 11 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
Umm.....that's what I been doing, meerly stating that for those with multiple classes will not be able to reallocate their stats efficiently due to how often one will change classes.

Urk, sorry, no coffee yet, reading comprehension failed. I reread you and now I see you actually say the same thing I do ._.;
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#33 Dec 11 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
I don't think an overhaul is needed either. I still have the feeling... that stats & some of the other battle mechanics aren't working right or are flat-out broke in some cases....Dunno if that's been forgotten and scrapped or just not implemented yet.


Oh, well I understood "overhaul" to mean "make necessary repairs," so I think most people here (including you) are saying the same thing. If the system currently vacillates between "not working right" and "flat-out broken," I think that an overhaul, by definition, is needed. XD


An overhaul is stripping everything down to it's components and starting over. It's not needed in this case. On one side of the scale you've got tweaking...on the other side you've got an overhaul. The system needs tweaking, not a teardown and rebuild.


Yup. That's what I was thinkin' of in regards to the word "overhaul". I think this discussion about physical levels also depends on planned fixes that haven't been made yet and whatever this new team plans to do with it. So in its current state, I can agree that it's far from ideal, but can't agree with "Yeah just scrap it". Maybe it just needs some simple adjustments to get it to where it needs to be. Make it easier to redistribute your stats while still putting some restriction on it so it's not an OP advantage. The biggest annoyance seems to be the reallocating system, so improve that.
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#34 Dec 11 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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I strongly advocated scrapping physical levels in beta. Lately I've been leveling CON and THM for abilities and traits to equip on my LNC. Shifting stats took so long I got to R19 on my CON before I was happy with my stats. I'm soon R20 on my THM and then I'll again have to spend days reallocating points to get back to my LNC setup. This is honestly really bad game design and a huge step back from XI.

What exactly are the benefits of being able to allocate your stats? To make unique builds? Don't make me laugh, even if the penalty for focusing on one stat too much didn't make us distribute our points pretty evenly among the few desirable stats, cookie cutter builds would eventually define the correct way to play and anything else would simply be inferior.

Docent42 wrote:

Why don't you assign your stats the way you want, and play all your classes with the same stat allocation and give it a try? People obsess over having the right stats on the right jobs, but have you even TRIED making a "all stats at 80, but 100 in str" build and give it a shot before? That's what I've been doing since day one and it's working perfectly fine for me so far -- haven't used the reallocate button once yet.

I don't want to be too rude, but that's seriously a terrible way to build your character. You do realize you have like a million wasted attribute points no matter what class you are on, right? Such unfocused builds will not be tolerated if the game ever gets challenging content where you'll want every edge you can get.



Edited, Dec 11th 2010 1:52pm by Omena
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#35 Dec 11 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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I strongly advocated scrapping physical levels in beta. Lately I've been leveling CON and THM for abilities and traits to equip on my LNC. Shifting stats took so long I got to R19 on my CON before I was happy with my stats. I'm soon R20 on my THM and then I'll again have to spend days reallocating points to get back to my LNC setup. This is honestly really bad game design and a huge step back from XI.


That limitation is only in your head. Like people have said, stats just don't matter as much as they could.

If you can't get over doing 1 less damage on LNC, that is not the fault of the design in place.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#36 Dec 11 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:

That limitation is only in your head. Like people have said, stats just don't matter as much as they could.

If you can't get over doing 1 less damage on LNC, that is not the fault of the design in place.

Surely you have the damage formulas all figured out if you can say that. Please share. Or perhaps you just like to settle for mediocrity rather than strive for perfection?
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#37 Dec 11 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Surely you have the damage formulas all figured out if you can say that. Please share. Or perhaps you just like to settle for mediocrity rather than strive for perfection?


A LNC that can change to THM instantly without losing much of his performance is more perfect than a LNC that does 5 more damage but can not change into THM when situation arises without being heavily nerfed.

This will be even more important in endgame and when they fix the macro system.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#38 Dec 11 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Surely you have the damage formulas all figured out if you can say that. Please share. Or perhaps you just like to settle for mediocrity rather than strive for perfection?


A LNC that can change to THM instantly without losing much of his performance is more perfect than a LNC that does 5 more damage but can not change into THM when situation arises without being heavily nerfed.

This will be even more important in endgame and when they fix the macro system.

You can't switch to THM when engaged. You've brought this point up before but it's never been valid. Even if there was a need to dump all the LNCs and bring as many THMs as possible, you'd rather change the people in your group than have the current guys switch to a different class with less than stellar stat allocation. Hybridization just doesn't cut it in a team based game. Never has, never will.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 2:18pm by Omena
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#39 Dec 11 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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Im level 50 physical

I have 4 stats at cap
2 stats at 50

now, "if" those 2 stats i didnt raise need to be raised for another job i level(which they wont) i could easily use the reallocate button once and boost the 1 stat its needed in a good 30-40 points with just that 1 change

but as is, reallocating at the cap, isnt really a big issue honestly.


the main thing this system does is give a boost to those who level alot of different jobs(in my case, 11 jobs post 20 almost now, 1 post 30) to where we will get a boost to what we can do.

Me and my friend are both leveling pugalist, around the same skill level(18), i am phys 50, hes phys 15....i hit for what he crits for.....sounds like a benefit to me
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#40 Dec 11 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You can't switch to THM when engaged.


There's no need to.

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you'd rather change the people in your group than have the current guys switch


This isn't valid option. Say, in the middle of an event like Salvage- how do you change the people in your group? You don't.

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Hybridization just doesn't cut it in a team based game. Never has, never will.


Never has it been done this way either. But your inability to think outside the box is remarkable.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#41 Dec 11 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Default
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Hyanmen wrote:

This isn't valid option. Say, in the middle of an event like Salvage- how do you change the people in your group? You don't.

Who says there's going to be anything like Salvage? Let's compare to WoW: There has never been content where you are locked inside an instance and can't change your raid composition during a run.

Quote:

Never has it been done this way either. But your inability to think outside the box is remarkable.

What do you mean hasn't been done this way? Manual stat allocation has never been done? Yes it has. Why do you think Ford succeeded in making cars mainstream? Specialization. They figured it's much more efficient to have one person focus on only one step in the manufacturing process instead of building the car from the ground up.
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#42 Dec 11 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Dude don't argue with Hyanmen, he thinks the game is complete and perfect as is and cannot conceptualize that we will see harder content or a community that WILL enforce perfect stats in the same way perfect subs were enforced for FFXI.
#43 Dec 11 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:

That limitation is only in your head. Like people have said, stats just don't matter as much as they could.

If you can't get over doing 1 less damage on LNC, that is not the fault of the design in place.

Surely you have the damage formulas all figured out if you can say that. Please share. Or perhaps you just like to settle for mediocrity rather than strive for perfection?


I'd rather SE not gut a functional system to accommodate OCD uberdorks in their desire to min-max at rank 23, tyvm.

There's nothing wrong with the existing system aside from the restrictions SE has placed on reallocating points. If they tweak and refine that end of things, they'll have a reasonably innovative system in place that actually allows for a finer degree of player tuning later on down the line than simply handing players preset stat defaults based on class and rank.

If you show me someone who is struggling to level a caster because their tank build is leaving them stat starved, I'll show you someone who needs to l2play. There's nothing about FFXIV combat that's hard or requires any substantial degree of min-maxing right now.
#44 Dec 11 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I'd rather SE not gut a functional system to accommodate OCD uberdorks in their desire to min-max at rank 23, tyvm.

There's nothing wrong with the existing system aside from the restrictions SE has placed on reallocating points. If they tweak and refine that end of things, they'll have a reasonably innovative system in place that actually allows for a finer degree of player tuning later on down the line than simply handing players preset stat defaults based on class and rank.

If you show me someone who is struggling to level a caster because their tank build is leaving them stat starved, I'll show you someone who needs to l2play. There's nothing about FFXIV combat that's hard or requires any substantial degree of min-maxing right now.


Let me make this counter point: if stat allocation is unimportant, then why is it in the game? If maxing out your stats only give you an additional 1-3% damage output or effective health, why confuse players or almost trick them into thinking that they need to pump points into one stat?

Making everyone more or less equal is, to me, the same as not allowing customization.
#45 Dec 11 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Decent
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only problem i have with this game right now is that the group activities are way too easy. Kill 10 mobs, but nothing challenging waiting at the end. It's a very bland experience. If they make leves not suck, more like FFXI BCNM with many different encounters requiring different strats so you can't just walk into an leve and win, then this game will be exponentially better.

Faction leves should be reserved for HNM style fights.

Leves should also give 5k exp per.
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#46 Dec 11 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Let me put it this way. "I either am optimal at what I do or I'm not" is not a choice. Things like "should I use ice or fire spells" or "should I use an axe or sword" ARE choices.
#48 Dec 11 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I'd rather SE not gut a functional system to accommodate OCD uberdorks in their desire to min-max at rank 23, tyvm.

There's nothing wrong with the existing system aside from the restrictions SE has placed on reallocating points. If they tweak and refine that end of things, they'll have a reasonably innovative system in place that actually allows for a finer degree of player tuning later on down the line than simply handing players preset stat defaults based on class and rank.

If you show me someone who is struggling to level a caster because their tank build is leaving them stat starved, I'll show you someone who needs to l2play. There's nothing about FFXIV combat that's hard or requires any substantial degree of min-maxing right now.


Let me make this counter point: if stat allocation is unimportant, then why is it in the game? If maxing out your stats only give you an additional 1-3% damage output or effective health, why confuse players or almost trick them into thinking that they need to pump points into one stat?

Making everyone more or less equal is, to me, the same as not allowing customization.


You're not getting it. Min-maxing is not necessary for leveling. That's all there is to it. And crying about the system as it exists because you can't switch classes on the fly and have each class optimally tuned and blah blah blah is bloody stupid. Less ****, more fun. That's all people need to focus on.
#49 Dec 11 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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msconduct wrote:
Wolf I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. I'm phys lvl 45 and I have every job except for thm and conj at 20. I have all of my stat in str and dex with a little VIT. My INT and MND are at like 14. When I did rank 10 leves with my rank 8 conj last night, I was having absolutely no problem whatsoever on 2 stars. I was 2 shotting a few mobs actually.

As of right now, stats mean almost nothing, at least for INT and MND.

Stop your whining and go play. It's not going to kill you if you aren't spec'd exactly the right way for a particular job at this point.

If you cannot play this game without crying over your perfect stats at lvl 20, I feel very ver sorry for you.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 5:07pm by msconduct


Shame I can't say anything without having ******** with zero reading comprehension come to insult me. It doesn't matter if the content available now is easy; if they add difficult content, having optimal stats WILL matter and the current system will be a huge challenge for people who want to change classes often. If they don't add difficult content and stats don't matter, then there's no point in having attributes that you can change.

LET ME REITERATE FOR YOU:

STATS DON'T MATTER => WHY ARE THEY THERE?
STATS DO MATTER => CURRENT SYSTEM SUCKS
#51 Dec 11 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Docent42 wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Once your multiple, varied classes are high you are forced to keep your attributes spread out or attempt to adjust them whenever you need to change classes (which is impossible).

Nobody is FORCING you to do it. You're not held at gunpoint by SE to reallocate your stats purely into STR when on PUG, and purely into VIT when on GLA, or whatever.

Why don't you assign your stats the way you want, and play all your classes with the same stat allocation and give it a try? People obsess over having the right stats on the right jobs, but have you even TRIED making a "all stats at 80, but 100 in str" build and give it a shot before? That's what I've been doing since day one and it's working perfectly fine for me so far -- haven't used the reallocate button once yet.

^
This

I have 2 class at 30+ and 1 at 40, they will be my main job for obvious reason, and my stat allocation allows me to play them efficiently. The P.Lvl system is fine as it is because it give you the freedom to design your own character and not cookie cutter oh Mr. Magician will have all capped INT/MND and Mr. Tanker will have all capped VIT/STR. Honestly, the P.Lvl system force people to THINK outside the box. The way it is right now, gears > stat. A good weapon on a high level monster > a crappy weapon with capped STR, you need to have a reasonable amount of ATK and class Rank before STR matters. I've known some CON who have never touched INT, but they do considerable amount of dmg outside healing. They have also downplayed the amount of HP/MP affected by VIT/MND to make +HP/+MP from gears more important as well. You also get a lot of + stat from gears, I have 3 different sets of rings to maximize my stats for different classes. The Physical Level system is fully functional, most of the people think it's broken are low lvl anyway so why do you even bother? Stat do matters, but not to the point of being broken where if you don't follow X build you're screwed for life and can not do anything.
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