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Is an overhaul of the phys lvl / class lvl system needed?Follow

#52 Dec 11 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wolfums wrote:

LET ME REITERATE FOR YOU:

STATS DON'T MATTER => WHY ARE THEY THERE?
STATS DO MATTER => CURRENT SYSTEM SUCKS


Oh, knock it off.

You're trying to turn a situation with many shades of gray into a black and white situation and it doesn't work that way.

Stats are significant, but not SO significant that people need to be getting all worked up into a tizzy over them while leveling up. You allocate where you allocate. Quit being so **** narrow minded. If you can't think big picture, STFU and take the word of people who can.

Edited, Dec 11th 2010 3:07pm by Aurelius
#53 Dec 11 2010 at 5:26 PM Rating: Good
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STR does matter, if you want to test go to Nanawa Mines at engage the Will 'o something there, don't kill it. It has a debuff that makes your STR down to zero, hit it again and see the difference in term of damage. STR however can not replace ATK from weapon, and ATK > STR.
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#54 Dec 11 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

Stats are significant, but not SO significant that people need to be getting all worked up into a tizzy over them while leveling up. You allocate where you allocate. Quit being so **** narrow minded. If you can't think big picture, STFU and take the word of people who can.

So do they matter or do they not? In this paragraph you say they do but also that they don't, so feel free to allocate however you want to. Right and wrong are binary. There is nothing in-between.
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#55 Dec 11 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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ZoosRfun wrote:
Physical level should matter.
What if we take the physical level and tie it to the storyline quests, and the enemy con system/overall strength of your character? I never understood why your class rank is what determines your progression in the main storyline. Especially with the flexibility of XIV's class system, it seems very punishing if you decide to change your class.

Say you finish the rank 20 storyline quest, but want to level up a different class. Well now you have to level that other class to 20 and more to see the next piece of content. Seems a lot like XI job system, right?

Instead, if your physical level determined your content progression, you would always be working toward new content, regardless of which class you were playing on at a given time.

You could switch from your rank 20 pugilist, to your rank 4 lancer, and still withstand attacks from enemies that are within your physical level range. Your would be missing a lot of lancer abilities, but you could still be a lancer, and work towards higher lancer class levels/skills, without having to repeat the content you just went through with your pugilist.



The problem with this idea is, if you finish your quest on your PuG @ 20. Say the next quest is lvl 30.
If your Plvl is 30, how will you kill lvl 30ish mobs with your lvl 4 lnc? Not nitpicking, just pointing out something you may not have thought about.
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#56 Dec 11 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Khornette wrote:
I don't know where you got the impression that... Physical Level is not meaningful. This is only true if your P.Level is dramatically higher than your Rank. By the time you hit R40+ of any classes, you will find that P.Level 50 means nothing in providing points for your 2-3 useful attributes.


wut?
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#57 Dec 11 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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DBkujata wrote:

The problem with this idea is, if you finish your quest on your PuG @ 20. Say the next quest is lvl 30.
If your Plvl is 30, how will you kill lvl 30ish mobs with your lvl 4 lnc? Not nitpicking, just pointing out something you may not have thought about.

His idea was that if P.Level was more important, you wouldn't need to be R30 or whatever LNC to kill those L30 mobs because he'd be P.Level 30. This would be possible if Rank wasn't tied to equipment and level penalty/advantage but P.Level was, which would be the opposite of how it works right now. I don't really like the idea, however, as it'd create some pretty awkward situations when you try to level a R0 job with starting abilities only at level cap.
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#58 Dec 11 2010 at 6:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omena wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

Stats are significant, but not SO significant that people need to be getting all worked up into a tizzy over them while leveling up. You allocate where you allocate. Quit being so **** narrow minded. If you can't think big picture, STFU and take the word of people who can.

So do they matter or do they not? In this paragraph you say they do but also that they don't, so feel free to allocate however you want to. Right and wrong are binary. There is nothing in-between.


There's a lot in between. I'm not using the words right and wrong. Other people seem to be trying to, and that's their mistake.
#59 Dec 11 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
I don't know where you got the impression that... Physical Level is not meaningful. This is only true if your P.Level is dramatically higher than your Rank. By the time you hit R40+ of any classes, you will find that P.Level 50 means nothing in providing points for your 2-3 useful attributes.


wut?


Because the people who said it's not meaningful also said that you get capped attributes by rank. Their reason is that because rank cap attribute, effectively capping P.Lvl, it is not meaningful.

Seriously people, the P.lvl and Rank is not that strange. Oblivion has nearly exact same system >_> with the same freedom, and it's one of the best RPG out there. If anything JRPG has always been criticised as restricted, and when they do give you some sort of freedom people start to slap it in the face for not being restricted.
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#60 Dec 11 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Default
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Khornette wrote:
The P.Lvl system is fine as it is because it give you the freedom to design your own character and not cookie cutter oh Mr. Magician will have all capped INT/MND and Mr. Tanker will have all capped VIT/STR. Honestly, the P.Lvl system force people to THINK outside the box.


I'm not sure what you mean by the "think outside the box" aphorism. All you seem to say is that, in most games, people try and increase only the stats that matter to their class, but in FFXIV, you can make yourself a build in which much of your stats do not necessarily help you, assumedly because you want to play other classes.

I suppose it is true that a mage who possesses lower relevant stats is not "cookie-cutter," but, of course, he's not cookie cutter because he will be outperformed by another mage who supplements those stats in full.

If by "thinking outside of the box" you mean "allowing someone to perform slightly worse as they change to opposing classes" then, yes, this is a great system for that.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#61 Dec 11 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Khornette wrote:
The P.Lvl system is fine as it is because it give you the freedom to design your own character and not cookie cutter oh Mr. Magician will have all capped INT/MND and Mr. Tanker will have all capped VIT/STR. Honestly, the P.Lvl system force people to THINK outside the box.


I'm not sure what you mean by the "think outside the box" aphorism. All you seem to say is that, in most games, people try and increase only the stats that matter to their class, but in FFXIV, you can make yourself a build in which much of your stats do not necessarily help you, assumedly because you want to play other classes.

I suppose it is true that a mage who possesses lower relevant stats is not "cookie-cutter," but, of course, he's not cookie cutter because he will be outperformed by another mage who supplements those stats in full.

If by "thinking outside of the box" you mean "allowing someone to perform slightly worse as they change to opposing classes" then, yes, this is a great system for that.


Because said mage is also a crafter who can outperform you in crafting? Or he's a gatherer? Or maybe he has more survivability than you because of his high HP? Isn't "allowing someone to perform slightly worse as they change to opposing classes" the whole idea of multi-classing? By no means it allows you to be an ace in both sword and sorcery, should you choose both you will be above mediocre but not the number one in both, it is not realistic nor balanced by allowing you to do so.
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#62 Dec 11 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

There's a lot in between. I'm not using the words right and wrong. Other people seem to be trying to, and that's their mistake.

No, you can do something right or you can do it wrong. If your stats aren't optimal, you're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong because you could be doing it better but you're not. Is the concept of doing something correctly/incorrectly completely lost on you?

Khornette wrote:

Because said mage is also a crafter who can outperform you in crafting? Or he's a gatherer? Or maybe he has more survivability than you because of his high HP? Isn't "allowing someone to perform slightly worse as they change to opposing classes" the whole idea of multi-classing? By no means it allows you to be an ace in both sword and sorcery, should you choose both you will be above mediocre but not the number one in both, it is not realistic nor balanced by allowing you to do so.

You can't be a mage and also a crafter. You can only be one class at a time, so it doesn't matter if your mage has better crafting stats than another mage. He's the worse mage and that's all that matters at that moment. If he switches to a crafting job, he'll have worse crafting stats than another crafter who is fully committed to crafting, so he loses yet again. Hybrids always get outclassed at whatever task they're trying to perform and that's why hybrids suck, unless they play alone, which is when they actually need to assume all roles simultaneously.



Edited, Dec 11th 2010 8:40pm by Omena
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#63 Dec 11 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

There's a lot in between. I'm not using the words right and wrong. Other people seem to be trying to, and that's their mistake.

No, you can do something right or you can do it wrong. If your stats aren't optimal, you're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong because you could be doing it better but you're not. Is the concept of doing something correctly/incorrectly completely lost on you?


I have a short series of steps that will help you to understand more clearly:

1) Grasp your elitist mentality around "right" and "wrong" firmly in one hand.
2) Ram it right straight directly up your ****.
3) ???
4) Profit.

Right is what works. You don't need to have an optimal build to kill mobs solo. Chances are pretty good you're not going to get ousted from a generic battlecraft leve or grind party for not having an optimal build. Come endgame you'll allocate in a manner necessary to allow you to contribute. Since we have no endgame at present, and since when we DO have endgame content to think about most people are only going to be focusing on one class, you can build around that class and then bomb around on your lowbie classes with the same build and it's a pretty safe bet you're going to be fine.

Hence my statement that you don't need to min-max for leveling. And if you think you do, you're not so bright.
#64Omena, Posted: Dec 12 2010 at 1:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's funny how people always try to defend their bad builds by throwing around the elitist card. Even if an optimal build isn't needed for the easy stuff that is all current content in FFXIV, it always helps. I mean, what are you going to do? Spread points around randomly until suddenly there is content that rewards efficiency? Why would you do that?
#65 Dec 12 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Default
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It's odd how everyone's claiming stats are useless, and in the same breath saying how useful they are. It's totally confusing. I can name right off the bat two stats which are of immense importance to any class levelling up. MND and VIT.

Maximising your potential with any given class is a topic that can run and run. Without proper experimentation into the exact effects of various stats on your ability all we have are assumptions to base it on. From my own experiences, INT has definitely increased the damage of my attack spells on Conjurer. I added killed several identical enemies using Thunder, added 20 INT and then did it again on the same targets. It's entirely possible it was a fluke, but for my part I did notice an increase albeit not as sizeable as I thought it should be.

The problem is that if statistics are so weak, then were is the incentive to bother putting in any points into stats other than VIT and MND (for HP and MP respectively)? Those two at least have unquestionable benefits to all disciples of war.

To be honest, I have no idea what direction the game should take this in. Should stats be made more important? I believe so, but I also worry that in doing so we restrict ourselves to only playing certain class types due to the lengthy cooldown on resets. Should stats in fact be based on your class and rank instead like FFXI? That would negate the purpose of a physical level unless they were somehow scaled against it.

One of the things I like most about this game is diversity. Being able to pick and choose how I play and what class I play it in. Whatever the future brings, I hope that never changes.
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#66 Dec 12 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omena wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

I have a short series of steps that will help you to understand more clearly:

1) Grasp your elitist mentality around "right" and "wrong" firmly in one hand.
2) Ram it right straight directly up your ****.
3) ???
4) Profit.

Right is what works. You don't need to have an optimal build to kill mobs solo. Chances are pretty good you're not going to get ousted from a generic battlecraft leve or grind party for not having an optimal build. Come endgame you'll allocate in a manner necessary to allow you to contribute. Since we have no endgame at present, and since when we DO have endgame content to think about most people are only going to be focusing on one class, you can build around that class and then bomb around on your lowbie classes with the same build and it's a pretty safe bet you're going to be fine.

Hence my statement that you don't need to min-max for leveling. And if you think you do, you're not so bright.

It's funny how people always try to defend their bad builds by throwing around the elitist card. Even if an optimal build isn't needed for the easy stuff that is all current content in FFXIV, it always helps. I mean, what are you going to do? Spread points around randomly until suddenly there is content that rewards efficiency? Why would you do that?


Bad build for what? I think you're getting ahead of yourself.

I rank up multiple DoH classes throughout any given week and frequently on any given day. You think I give a rat's *** if I've got any one of those classes tuned for optimal performance? I don't. I haven't got time to **** around swapping stats here for armorer and oh I need shards so let's build for alchemist and oops it's leve reset time so back to armorer and oh ya I'm out of local leves for armorer but this LW leve looks good so I'll respec for that and then build for weaver because I've got one more local leve I can do but oh look mining leves I'll rebuild for that...

Nonsense. Am I settling for mediocrity in my builds now? Absolutely. And I do it because I can. I'm not hurting in any way for it. If I've got my heart set on cranking out some HQ gear with my armorer I'll rebuild and stack VIT to the cap since it's confirmed that it influences quality. If my GLA is routinely getting facerolled in the content I'm doing I'll take a close look at where my stats are and adjust where appropriate.

And while we're on the subject, a key component to elitism is having a clue, and I'm telling you straight up that you don't have one. Who the **** are you to be prancing around talking about optimal builds for anything. For DoW/DoM classes, nobody yet has a goddam clue what "optimal" is. There hasn't been nearly enough time for nearly enough testing to determine what optimal might be and even if there was, testing in the current content would likely mean approximately jack when we get around to content tuned specifically for groups.

If you want to be tossing around this level of ******** elitism that only the "best" is "right", you're in way over your head. That's the point where you start getting down the encounter level, otherwise you, too, are just building a generic multi-purpose build, even if it's just for one class, because there's no way you can say that the build that's best for puks is also the best for imps is also the best for coblyns.

Success or failure. Right or wrong. If you succeeded, it was right. Period.

And the system we have now allows you to tweak and fine tune to your heart's content. It's a system that rewards diversity. And for the uberdork elitists out there for whom only the "best" will do, be my guest to reallocate between every encounter. Otherwise, blow it out your ***.
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