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A Conversation Overheard....Follow

#1 Dec 12 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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A conversation overheard in the SE ffxiv programing department for synthing and gathering...

Ichi: Good morning, Fred. How was your vacation.

Fred: It was fabulous, Ichi, thanks.

Ichi: How'd you make out finalizing the coding for synthing and gathering?

Fred: Well, that's kind of a long story. In fact, I never even had the chance to look at it, but not to worry, I have it all figured out.

Ichi: Oh?

Fred: Yep, gonna make it totally random. No one will ever know the difference.

Ichi: You think?

Fred: **** yes, everyone's too focused on the user interface problems we have, and lack of game content, to be worried about the synthing and gathering code.

Ichi: Ya, I suppose you're right. Poor bastards, can't hide anything there. I warned Hiro-san just the other day, his group needed to create more than level 1 local leves, and the UI guys, dumb *****, they could have just taken a page from ffxi and windower, but no, they had to try re-create the wheel. Well, I gues it serves them right.

Fred: Hey Ichi, what's that guy doing over there drinking pineapple juice before he synths? and that guy over there is eating broiled trout. ewww it's 5 a.m..

Ichi: Some food and drinks are designed to improve crafting success.

Fred: Really? Well, I suppose it'll keep the culinary crafters busy anyhow. OMG, Ichi, what's that guy wearing on his head?

Ichi: It's called a coif, Fred. It has stats that're also supposed to improve crafting success.

Fred: You're kidding me? I'd rather be caught dead in my damaged undies than wear one of those.

Ichi: For real lmao.

Fred: Well, I guess the only way they could move that ugly clothing is to have the development team suggest that those stats are relavent to crafting. Oh my, why are all those people facing SW?

Ichi: There's a radical group in the crafting community that believe moon and day elements affect crafting results, and now, some are even suggesting that the direction they face affects success.

Fred: OMG, I heard about that. It's a carry-over from ffxi, I'm told.

Ichi: I'm guessing you didn't have time to develop any coding for the DoL mark bars either?

Fred: That would be a good assumption, Ichi. Those **** visual design guys, always trying to complicate our lives. We'll just make it so the players have to click on it, and we'll allow them to adjust it, even though it'll have no relavance whatsoever on the outcome of the gathering.

Ichi: Well, I guess that about wraps it up, Fred. Looks like we're ready for retail.

Fred: Yes, Ichi. This is gonna be so much fun. 9 years of ffxi, and people still haven't figured it out. I'm already bursting at the seams.

Ichi: Ya, I can hardly contain myself either. I'd suggest we go have a drink to celebrate, but it's ice moon/earth day - you know, we're not supposed to party under those conditions.

Fred: Don't worry, Ichi, I have our coifs. Here, eat this fish. lololol

Ichi: lololol
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#2 Dec 12 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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I've been complaining about this for a while now =P
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#3 Dec 12 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Haha... sure, but seriously if you gather at all you can notice the notch does affect the otucome, and that stats do affect your item number and your success the same way as it does crafting. This is not just some poorly implemented system, it is structured with viable testing methods. I suggest you read up on it.
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#4 Dec 12 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
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Mmmhmmm... http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129150709818468410&page=1

That's what I say to the notch, thank you.
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#5 Dec 12 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
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shinichoco wrote:
Mmmhmmm... http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129150709818468410&page=1

That's what I say to the notch, thank you.



Wow, in the feedback forum, too. Well done, sir.
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#6 Dec 12 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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That was prettttyy funny~
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#7 Dec 12 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I spent a day writing down notes on gathering and then another day analyzing it. On the third day I knew exactly what to do to get the items I wanted when mining (Or at the very least maximise the chance) before fatigue set in. I have more silver nuggets than I can shake a stick at which is what I was aiming for before setting out.

Yes there is a random element to it, but there is also a whole set of rules which if you are willing to work out will garner enough information to be able to succefully gather exactly what you need.

Now I was going to publish the entire set of results, shortly before I realised there is a possible problem that would benefit RMT style groups so I won't publish the results until I have confirmed the issue and notified the issue to Square Enix, and possibly actually seen a fix in place.

In response to the original poster, this current system is far superior to the old FFXI system and to be fair any other gathering style system I have seen, in that it acutally requires some thought.

On a further note the day / moon / element cycle has such a small signifigance that it doesn't even come into play, or is actually non existant.

On the crafting side, there is again a great deal of frustration regards certain recipes that are hard and on certain days it can seem frustrating. Now the element cycle doesn't seem to have as much signifigance as for instance elemental affinities and crafting level / support. I would suggest playing with it a bit more and recording some results. I certainly don't want an guarnateed result system and also don't want an entirely random system. FFXIV crafting and gathering sits right between the two and does it really well.

On a side note a few things are utterly wrong with both systems, for instance fatigue on gathering and bold synthesis, but thats an argument for a different topic.
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FFXIV : Khaap Keha : THM(Bodhum) In progress and enjoying it so far.
FFXI : Khaap : 75BLM, 75NIN Retired (sadly and it was purely down to graphics)



#8 Dec 12 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Khaap wrote:

Now I was going to publish the entire set of results, shortly before I realised there is a possible problem that would benefit RMT style groups so I won't publish the results until I have confirmed the issue and notified the issue to Square Enix, and possibly actually seen a fix in place.


You're seriously tripping if you think they haven't figured it out already.
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#9EmiyaShirou, Posted: Dec 12 2010 at 3:05 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sorry but i call this some fat BS to rise a negative atmosphere around FFXIV. . . a story like that i can write in my home in about 5 minutes...
#10 Dec 12 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Sorry but i call this some fat BS to rise a negative atmosphere around FFXIV. . . a story like that i can write in my home in about 5 minutes...


lol, satire recognition fail?
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#11 Dec 12 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Khaap wrote:

Now I was going to publish the entire set of results, shortly before I realised there is a possible problem that would benefit RMT style groups so I won't publish the results until I have confirmed the issue and notified the issue to Square Enix, and possibly actually seen a fix in place.


You will forgive me if I don't exactly find this credible and if you are exploiting something from the gathering system to get what you want, then it doesn't really mean that the system is working properly, now does it?

Don't get me wrong. I would like to believe you, really. I was all set to try this myself one day when I was bored and grabbed my logging and mining crap and set off gathering recording my results for each notch spot on each node... When I got to 10 different items on the same node and the nodes were exhausted and moved... I just gave up.

From just one notch on one node I have received:
3 different kinds of feathers (swan, crow and chicken); 3 different kids of logs (elm, ash, maple), 3 different kinds of branches (willow, ash and maple) 2 different kinds of food (faerie apples and Gridanian walnuts)...

From mines:
silex, river sand, iron sand, silver sand, alumen, zinc ore, copper ore, tin ore, ice rocks and earth rocks.

But if YOU found something from sticking through this, why hasn't anyone else found any sort of logic behind it and posted their results?

Now crafting... I spend a lot of time crafting and I just shake my head each time.
I have succeeded on guildleve items (all of the required and more) that are 7 levels above my rank without having a properly leveled subskill OR the "required/recommended" facilities and then turned around and failed (actually botched the majority of the synths) guildleve items that were 5 ranks below me, didn't require guild support or a required subskill. A lot of times those synths used the exact same crystals and had the same type of recommended training.

I have tried all sorts of things that people have suggested and I just have not seen any noticeable improvement, so if you have all of a sudden found the magic solution to how all this works, then yes, I would love to know. Until then I will do like everyone else-- play the maybe you just have GOOD luck card.
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#12 Dec 12 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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I do also believe some sort of logic is behind gathering. On some days when I go out aiming for arrowwood branches through some trial and error I know have a good idea of what the tree will look like (it is kind of funny that I finial realized the trees will be different for different items) and where to aim.
#13 Dec 12 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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I was just out chopping and doing some leves around Camp Tranquil. I got arrowwood branches from three different trees-- all very different looking from each other. Either you guys are doing something different from me or the game is just laughing at me or something. =/
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#14 Dec 12 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
I have to agree that if you keep track, things are very easy to isolate. If you hit the correct notch/depth you will get more of the item you are looking for. As far as getting different types of wood from the same tree, I haven't seen it happen once yet on grade one, two, or three nodes.

Gathering is significantly easier now than before the notch hints.
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#15 Dec 12 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
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You will have to tell me what I am doing wrong then. I see:

You obtain the silver sand.
You sense silver sand below where you are gathering. So I move my notch down...

You obtain the river sand.
You sense river sand above where you are gathering. So I keep it there till I get silver sand...

You obtain the river sand.
You sense river sand above where you are gathering. Uhhh...? Let's move it down?

You obtain the piece of copper ore.
You sense copper ore blow where you are gathering. So... where is my silver sand now?

When my attempts on that node are gone and I come back to it, I can get the exact opposite messages. Instead of being towards the bottom, the ores will be towards the top. So... yeah... what is going on that it seems so random for me but it is somewhat consistent for you guys? Or the copper ore, for example may be at the bottom again but the silver sand is apparently further up. And when I am at "You sense silver sand where you are mining" I STILL get river sand and a bunch of other random crap that I don't want.

Do I need to find gear with a different stat on it? A lot of my gathering gear has +gathering on it. I haven't found much with +output except for gloves and +perception seems to be pretty rare on gear.

Edit: Really, I am not TRYING to argue here. I am honestly trying to figure out why everything seems so random for me and yet, you guys can easily document results. Please, DO enlighten me here. What gear do you use? What grade of nodes are you harvesting from? (I'm usually doing grade 2 or 3 nodes as my gathering professions are in the low to mid teens)

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 4:28am by shinichoco
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#16 Dec 12 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Excellent
shinichoco wrote:
You will have to tell me what I am doing wrong then. I see:

You obtain the silver sand.
You sense silver sand below where you are gathering. So I move my notch down...

You obtain the river sand.
You sense river sand above where you are gathering. So I keep it there till I get silver sand...

You obtain the river sand.
You sense river sand above where you are gathering. Uhhh...? Let's move it down?

You obtain the piece of copper ore.
You sense copper ore blow where you are gathering. So... where is my silver sand now?

When my attempts on that node are gone and I come back to it, I can get the exact opposite messages. Instead of being towards the bottom, the ores will be towards the top. So... yeah... what is going on that it seems so random for me but it is somewhat consistent for you guys? Or the copper ore, for example may be at the bottom again but the silver sand is apparently further up. And when I am at "You sense silver sand where you are mining" I STILL get river sand and a bunch of other random crap that I don't want.

Do I need to find gear with a different stat on it? A lot of my gathering gear has +gathering on it. I haven't found much with +output except for gloves and +perception seems to be pretty rare on gear.

Edit: Really, I am not TRYING to argue here. I am honestly trying to figure out why everything seems so random for me and yet, you guys can easily document results. Please, DO enlighten me here. What gear do you use? What grade of nodes are you harvesting from? (I'm usually doing grade 2 or 3 nodes as my gathering professions are in the low to mid teens)


Not trying to call you out, but the nodes always seem to be putting things out in the same places for me.

Here's how I figured out a bunch of the nodes. It's a pain in the ***, but it was the fastest way i could think of doing it.

I started at the very top. Generally at each type of node I only saw at most 8-10 items. Every time I got an item, I wrote down if the item was higher or lower than my current notch. Every couple of nodes, I moved down a notch. After 15-20 nodes I generally had everything pegged.

For example, here are the Grade 1 mining node notches near Uldah:

Top
1-
2-Bone Chips
3-Rock Salt, Copper Ore
4-Yellow Copper Ore
5-
6-Elemental Rock(mine were lightning, but I think I got 1 fire too)
7-Tin Ore
8-
9-
10-Bloodworms
11-
Bottom

When you farm the nodes at the correct notch, you receive a bonus % to the chances of getting the item/items listed for that notch. I haven't calculated that bonus yet, but it seems fairly substantial to the naked eye. After charting this out, I started notching on 3 every time, and ended up with about 70% of my strikes being Rock Salt or Copper Ore.

Happy gathering.

Edited, Dec 12th 2010 11:42pm by Yabusame
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#17 Dec 12 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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Fair enough. I will sell and toss some crap from my inventory and retainer and make myself some more gathering gear and see if I get better results after work tonight. I do, however, remain somewhat doubtful =/
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行く河の流れは絶えずしてしかも元の水にあらず。よどみに浮かぶ泡沫はかつ消えかつ結びて久しくとどまりたる例なし世の中にある人と住みかも全くのごとき。 -方丈記
#18 Dec 13 2010 at 5:35 AM Rating: Good
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Sorry for a little bit of confusion here..... let me try and straiten a few things out.

There is no way to farm exactly what you want.
You can maximise your chances of getting what you want.
Some things are entirely fixed with regards gathering (actually quiet a lot is)

There is an issue that I have yet to test to see if it is an issue. Once I've confirmed / managed to reliable replicate it I'll report it. There's no point me even mentioning to SE until I can confirm its exploitable.
It doesn't relate to where to aim at or what notch to use.
If RMT have worked it out you would see them doing it all the time in various zones as it would be too good to not do it.

Once the issue is out the way I will post the guide for all to benefit, until then I really cant as its possibly game breaking issues.

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FFXIV : Khaap Keha : THM(Bodhum) In progress and enjoying it so far.
FFXI : Khaap : 75BLM, 75NIN Retired (sadly and it was purely down to graphics)



#19 Dec 13 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Default
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EmiyaShirou wrote:
tsumarione wrote:
A conversation overheard in the SE ffxiv programing department for synthing and gathering...

Sorry but i call this some fat BS to rise a negative atmosphere around FFXIV. . . a story like that i can write in my home in about 5 minutes...


Lol, very good. This is where I contrived this, and yes, 5 minutes is about right.

For those of you with no sense of humor, or those unable to distinguish satire:

I clearly understand there is some degree of relavent programming for both crafting and harvesting. Otherwise, I wouldn't be running around in a dufus coif and other assorted armor specific to the particular activity, using food, and getting higher levels of support where appropriate. Also, whether it's relavent or not, I do run the moon/day gadget continuosly when I craft, and I do believe it has some impact on results. To what degree, I defy anyone to quantify this. You can make bold statements that elemental affinity has minimal impact on results. I say, prove it.

The whole point is this - I don't like how random this is, and to what degree results is left entirely to chance, as Shinichoco so aptly points out. I personally don't believe with proper armor, food, support that a synth @ well within my rank, I should be able to succeed attempt 1 with 50% duration remaining, and the very next synth have it bust @ 23% for no good reason. I'm sorry but that's just way to random for my liking. Or having to attempt 3 times to repair an item that not only I am over-qualified to repair but synth. Nothing is more aggrevating to me than to be synthing and having the system just decide to go on a 'I'm gonna bust this 5 times in a row, no matter what you do' mode, and for no good or apparant reason, or on the very first synth attempt to go into some raged, unstable mode. Every bust tears up your gear, and yes, this is a whole other topic, but it is related. I'm tired of sneezing and getting gear damage. I'm tired of changing jobs and back, only to find gear damage, when it wasn't damaged before. I'm tired of logging out no gear damage, and logging back in the next day only to find gear damage. I'm tired of repairing an item, not using it at all, logging out, and then logging back in the next day only to find the item is totally damaged again.

I played ffxi 6 years, and I have to admit, crafting was not my favorite activity. Cooking was @ 100+ and fishing @ 65% (intended to level it to 100+ until SE nerfed skills ups to preclude botting). The last synth I ever did in ffxi was a level 12 pet food or bait synth, I don't specifically recall, with proper elemental affinity allignment, etc.. I failed this 4/12 with cooking 100+. I never synthed another item again.

Bottom line - yes, I fully understand the need for some degree of randomness in both crafting and harvesting. If we totally knew the outcome of each and every endeavor, and if there was zero risk in the activity, we probably wouldn't play the game. But get it right man. If you've put in the effort to level a particular job to some reasonable level of proficiency, then let's not make success/failure some ridculous 50/50 proposition.
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#20 Dec 13 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Bottom line - yes, I fully understand the need for some degree of randomness in both crafting and harvesting. If we totally knew the outcome of each and every endeavor, and if there was zero risk in the activity, we probably wouldn't play the game. But get it right man. If you've put in the effort to level a particular job to some reasonable level of proficiency, then let's not make success/failure some ridculous 50/50 proposition.


+1 this. The only time I truly Incredible Hulk Rage Craft is when I start randomly failing synths well below my rank...and it's never a single fail, it's always multiples.
#21 Dec 13 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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Gathering is not very random. I know pretty much exactly which notch is best both to hook Bream (not cause it is any good but just easy to catch and skill on) and responds well to my equipped bait ("the fish seem to be biting on..."). I can even cut the amount of time between attempts because I am using favoured bait for the node, and because I can hit the fish on the nose in two jigs (the fish has tired but you cannot reel it in, you reel in your catch!).

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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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