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Backtracking to FFXI-2?Follow

#1 Dec 14 2010 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
If any of you still keep up with the gamebreaker podcasts for FFXIV, a very interesting point was brought up. That being: the prospect of bringing FFXIV back to a sort of FFXI sequel. Now if you kept up with the game, prior to it's E3 announcement, you would know that their were rumors of an FFXI sequel alongside the SE claim that their next MMO would not be FF related. Now obviously these rumors have been dispelled but with the fallout following the rocky release of FFXIV it brings to question; how far SE would go to save the game? What if they brought FFXI up to FFXIV's quality of graphics and redid FFXIV in FFXI's image rather than what it is?

They are doing enough game changing concepts, like the SP change, this early in the game that almost anything is possible at this point. Statistically speaking as per the last numbers, prior to SE turning off the statistics in the search function, FFXIV had about 30-40k active users. Compared to FFXI, FFXIV is but a mere shade of it's almost 9 year old predecessor. But the real question remains is would the 11 users switch over if they merely redid 11? I think at this point anything is a fair guess but the amount of work involved in this sort of change would probably be unreal. But given the current status of FFXIV, it isn't wholly out of the question. What do you guys think?



Edited, Dec 14th 2010 2:17am by Pentvonghelsburg
#2 Dec 14 2010 at 1:19 AM Rating: Decent
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That would be stupid of them.

"Why play this game if you can play FFXI"?

This is the only question that needs to be asked. If the game doesn't succeed by its own merits, it won't succeed at all.
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#3 Dec 14 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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There is one other factor you need to take into account. Several players that are still playing XI are stuck there due to hardware limits. Not to mention, the two key arguments seem to be functionality and content. By making XIV a polished clone of XI, you negate innovation and the development of new systems. Sure they will be buggy at first and a few may even be frustrating as ****, but eventually everything smooths out.
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#4 Dec 14 2010 at 1:58 AM Rating: Decent
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So you consider the "Sp gain per action to mob" innovation? They reverted back to original traditional way because that innovation was crap.
#5 Dec 14 2010 at 2:13 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
That would be stupid of them.

"Why play this game if you can play FFXI"?

This is the only question that needs to be asked. If the game doesn't succeed by its own merits, it won't succeed at all.


I have to agree. If I wanted to play FFXI, I'd be playing FFXI. I stopped playing FFXI for a reason. I appreciate some people are nostalgic for certain mob types and certain game mechanics and all that, but that's why the FFXI servers are still up. I'm not opposed to SE giving a nod to FFXI here and there, but there's an undetermined line that they could hypothetically cross that would make me feel that FFXI-2 is becoming a reality, at which point I'd probably stop playing. There's nothing about the game that's so compelling that I'd subject myself to that level of irritation again.
#6 Dec 14 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Somebody wrote this on core, and it needs to be said here too.

Quote:
This is why gamers should be completely ignored by the development process and only used to test the stability of the online environment (stability covers all aspects from server stability to quest mechanics and combat balance). Gamers draw on the games they played and the experiences they enjoyed from those other games and ignore the context. There is absolutely no regard for causality.

All of you need to think about why warm feels good when you are cold and cold feels good when you are warm and apply that to your thinking here. In order for any experience in a virtual environment to suspend disbelief you must surround it with polar experiences. (Not like polar ice caps but opposite experiences) This allows the positive to stand out from the negative in a synergistic way that is impossible without the contrast.

If anyone made the game you are all asking for you would all hate it. Even though it was exactly what you are asking for and think you want now, you would end up hating it. If you think about causality for a while you will understand what I mean and you can apply this concept to future thinking.



Edited, Dec 14th 2010 11:17am by Hyanmen
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#7 Dec 14 2010 at 2:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Faladis wrote:
There is one other factor you need to take into account. Several players that are still playing XI are stuck there due to hardware limits. Not to mention, the two key arguments seem to be functionality and content. By making XIV a polished clone of XI, you negate innovation and the development of new systems. Sure they will be buggy at first and a few may even be frustrating as ****, but eventually everything smooths out.


Actually I am still playing XI because I enjoy the way the game is built and it is a different type of fun for me. They say you never forget ya first and well it was my 1st MMO.

Even when XIV has all the content I will still play XI.
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#8 Dec 14 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Default
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If they made XIV into an XI clone, then they lost me as a player and a subscriber. I just retired from FFXI because I completed all the storyline the game had to offer (see signature), why would I want to do it again with a graphical face-lift?

I want to play Final Fantasy XIV because it's a new Final Fantasy, not because it's a new Final Fantasy XI.
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#9 Dec 14 2010 at 3:15 AM Rating: Default
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Anyone notice that one of the ingredients in at least one of the Starlight Festival food items is a Rolanberry?

Stuff like that bothers me more than it should. It's just a name. It's not going to affect the playability of the game. But for me, it irks. I don't want to be reminded of Rolanberry Fields. To me, Rolanberry Fields conjures images of bazaar farms, hours upon hours upon hours of farming malboros for vines and yet another journey into CN for what would most likely be an abysmal xp party. Other people had better experiences there and I respect that, but my hope is that SE realizes that there's probably a couple hundred thousand people who left FFXI because they grew to dislike the game and were hoping that XIV would be something different.

I don't see the SP change as SE heading in the direction of FFXI-2. It's not like SE innovated the concept of killing a mob and earning SP (xp) based on a comparison of your rank (level) to that of the mob. That's not an FFXI concept...that's an RPG concept carried forward from tabletop RPGs long before PC/console RPGs were even a twinkle in some dorky coder's mind.

And my hope is that with a new director/producer that, as far as I know, has never been directly involved with any FF titles is that he's going to evaluate things from a playability standpoint and not a nostalgic one.
#10 Dec 14 2010 at 3:38 AM Rating: Default
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Does that mean u dont watch sequel to movies or play Kingdom hearts series or play sequels to games in general? Right.. just because the core gameplay remains doesnt make it the same game.
#11 Dec 14 2010 at 4:02 AM Rating: Good
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Imaboomer wrote:
Does that mean u dont watch sequel to movies or play Kingdom hearts series or play sequels to games in general? Right.. just because the core gameplay remains doesnt make it the same game.


The point you're missing is that a lot of people didn't like the core gameplay elements in FFXI so when SE says they're making a brand new game to include comments that they would like some things to be familiar to FFXI players (ie races) but that they're looking at making something quite different, the last thing they can afford to do is backtrack and make FFXI-2.

See, on one hand you've got some people who would love FFXI-2, but for them to have expected it based on what we were told would be extremely foolish.

On the other hand, you've got people who do not want FFXI-2, and for it to be forced on them now that they've bought and paid for the game would be a severe disappointment for them.

SE said they were making a new MMO as part of the Final Fantasy franchise, not a sequel to FFXI. I'm counting on them to stick to that.
#12 Dec 14 2010 at 4:40 AM Rating: Default
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How about they make both and see which ones makes it lol.. wouldnt be that hard to redo battle mechanics and **** just cut copy paste. And give new story line and quests bet anything the FFXI-2 would be around alot longer. FFXI has made it 9 yrs for a reason and certainly was not over hauled it first cpl months lol... AND no one was fired/stepped down b/c they f**cked up. I say rerelease it with FFXI battle system and job mechanics and let them battle it out.... And SE wins both ways b/c they get to sell a whole new game LOL! You can have FF14 or FFXI-2 sounds like a winners market xD!
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#13 Dec 14 2010 at 5:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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lostshroomie wrote:
How about they make both and see which ones makes it lol.. wouldnt be that hard to redo battle mechanics and sh*t just cut copy paste.


Yeaaa basically all they'd have to do is turn on FFXI, run to their favorite xp location, start fighting mobs and as they're doing that they just like take the cursor, highlight everything and click CTRL C, then they quickly switch to FFXIV and CTRL paste that puppy in there! its like taking candy from a baby.
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#14 Dec 14 2010 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
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lostshroomie wrote:
How about they make both and see which ones makes it lol.. wouldnt be that hard to redo battle mechanics and sh*t just cut copy paste. And give new story line and quests bet anything the FFXI-2 would be around alot longer. FFXI has made it 9 yrs for a reason and certainly was not over hauled it first cpl months lol... AND no one was fired/stepped down b/c they f**cked up. I say rerelease it with FFXI battle system and job mechanics and let them battle it out.... And SE wins both ways b/c they get to sell a whole new game LOL! You can have FF14 or FFXI-2 sounds like a winners market xD!


Actually, it was overhauled in the first couple of months. Only difference is, we didn't get a chance to see it because by the time FFXI got to western markets, it was smoothed out and came with the first expansion. Does that give an excuse for them to release FFXIV in this state? Of course not. But in my opinion, FFXI-2 would be a terrible idea.
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#15 Dec 14 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Anyone notice that one of the ingredients in at least one of the Starlight Festival food items is a Rolanberry?

Stuff like that bothers me more than it should. It's just a name. It's not going to affect the playability of the game. But for me, it irks. I don't want to be reminded of Rolanberry Fields. To me, Rolanberry Fields conjures images of bazaar farms, hours upon hours upon hours of farming malboros for vines and yet another journey into CN for what would most likely be an abysmal xp party. Other people had better experiences there and I respect that, but my hope is that SE realizes that there's probably a couple hundred thousand people who left FFXI because they grew to dislike the game and were hoping that XIV would be something different.



My character name is Rolanberry Fields! Sir, you wound me.
#16 Dec 14 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
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given that most of this game was based on pre-FFXI features and ideas, becoming FFXI-2 would actually be an improvement, not backtracking.
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#17 Dec 14 2010 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Anyone notice that one of the ingredients in at least one of the Starlight Festival food items is a Rolanberry?



I love to see little things like this as much as I like to see Cid, Biggs and Wedge or Espers. I want a new game but seeing little things like this brings in nostalga too, this has always been present in FF. Biggs and Wedge were awesome in FF7 but really irritated me in FF8 but still loved the game and got on with it. Its not lazy or ruining the game in anyway. Its a FF tradition that adds to the grandeur of the series. <3

SolidMack wrote:
lostshroomie wrote:
How about they make both and see which ones makes it lol.. wouldnt be that hard to redo battle mechanics and sh*t just cut copy paste.


Yeaaa basically all they'd have to do is turn on FFXI, run to their favorite xp location, start fighting mobs and as they're doing that they just like take the cursor, highlight everything and click CTRL C, then they quickly switch to FFXIV and CTRL paste that puppy in there! its like taking candy from a baby.


Love this comment rate up :D
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#18 Dec 14 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I see nothing wrong with injecting ff11 into ff14,not in any way shape or form. In fact carrying on from 11 after many years of playing that one would only STRENGTHEN my enjoyment of the game. The more familiarity there is imo, the better by far ^^

Whether it be storyline, mob appearances..factions...races, bring it on I say.

The point is nobody is right yet no one opinion is wrong either.

Bringing in more 11 would = loss of some customers AND undoubtedly = addition of others.

No perfect solution nor answer.

Honestly I dont think that would even matter if they could get the core of the game functioning. Basic battle/sp improvements, functionality of ...well.......everything, additions of basic features ah, mail, the most common of things are needed/missing. it simply wasnt ready for retail,once the very basics are added in and things are "smooth" ff11 or not in here will be irrelevant to most.

but i do believe they gotta act quite fast. its sad and alot of pressure on the new team but speed will matter as much as addition content. Oo

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#19 Dec 14 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
It's not a matter of of innovation or what we as gamers want. I suspect that this new "age of communication" that SE has undertaken to save this game was a product of investor rage not player frustrations. This has to be one of the worst launches for an MMO , APB aside, in video game history. They plummeted a lot of money into this game and it is more likely that not that; if FFXIV continues to hemorrhage money then they will continue to dive into FFXI tactics that have already proven successful. The SP gain is just one move in this direction and I suspect many more to come.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 12:04pm by Pentvonghelsburg
#20 Dec 14 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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I wish they would of went one way or the other. We have pretty much the same races with dif names, gladiator instead of paladin. Which makes no sense to me, when i think of a gladiator paladin does not come to mind.
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#21 Dec 14 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seventhblood wrote:
I wish they would of went one way or the other. We have pretty much the same races with dif names, gladiator instead of paladin. Which makes no sense to me, when i think of a gladiator paladin does not come to mind.


Maybe try not to force XIV classes into XI jobs and it's less confusing. If you want a paladin, one can be made with gladiator. But a gladiator doesn't have to be a paladin.
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#22 Dec 14 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Imaboomer wrote:
So you consider the "Sp gain per action to mob" innovation? They reverted back to original traditional way because that innovation was crap.


Just because one innovation didn't work does not mean all innovations will not work. By your logic we might as well all go back to Pong because any innovation is crap, right?

The whole point of innovating is finding what works and what doesn't. No one has a perfect record. If you can't handle mistakes, setbacks, etc. you're probably better off playing an established game.
#23 Dec 14 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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I both expected and hoped for a FFXI-2.

But as for a sequel I hoped that SE would improve upon the deficiencies of XI, while providing new experiences, mechanics and gameplay.

And in some instances SE DID improve on XI while in other areas they didn't.

I expected that soloing would be viable but also retain a group element. I expected that finding groups would be easier. I expected the charm and life that not only XI had but all other Final Fantasy's have.

I expected The Godfather: Part II and all I got was Leprechaun: Back 2 Tha Hood. (OK, well maybe its not THAT bad.)
#24 Dec 14 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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I was expecting and hoping for FFXI-2 and didn't get it.

With that said, I think it would be a terrible idea for SE to try to turn FFXIV into FFXI-2. Some people like XIV and not XI, some like XI and not XIV, some like both, some like neither. Trying to make two copies of the same game is just silly, because then you're splitting one group of players between two games and giving the other group of players (The ones who like XIV) nothing but a clone of something they may not have liked.

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#25 Dec 14 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Hmmmmmmm, Ok so first off this game will never be ffxi because well its not, But, there are alot of things that could and should be brought over from xi. This does not have to affect the general experience (i.e. improved solo ability)but could change the game for the more hard core players (think skill chain magic burst and exp chaining). The reality is S.E. has a good general concept here that has been poorly executed (to say the least). Let us all remember that it does not have to be one way or the other, many ideas can be brought over without changing the uniquness of this game. It would be VERY highly unlikely to see them reskin ffxi with the new engine and keep all the story line, I mean lets be real who would buy it. But a combination of ffxi and ffxiv while keeping the best of both and you have a winner. I do not wish to tweak anyones ear but all the people that love the way this game is now will suffer dissapointment in the long run, due to the fact that the game has few subs even as f2p this says to me at least, that the idea is not flying well. What needs to happen is to find good solid middle ground and rebuild as a game that we can all love.
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#26 Dec 14 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Seventhblood wrote:
I wish they would of went one way or the other. We have pretty much the same races with dif names, gladiator instead of paladin. Which makes no sense to me, when i think of a gladiator paladin does not come to mind.


Maybe try not to force XIV classes into XI jobs and it's less confusing. If you want a paladin, one can be made with gladiator. But a gladiator doesn't have to be a paladin.



This.

The community has made Gladiator the de facto tank in this game. Ignoring Maurader's parry and Pugilist's evasion. A Gladiator can be a Paladin by mixing it with Conjurer in the same way it can be a Thief by mixing it with Pugilist and Lance. It's in our hands to define our own roll.
#27 Dec 14 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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Ive been thinking alot about the parts of the EXP system from FFXI that I enjoyed.

1.) The level gap was small. The addition of Level Synch worked well - everyone recieved the same EXP.
2.) EXP Chains were fun. Getting Chain #5 was a entertaining goal for casual parties.
3.) AoE attacks worked with no EXP penalty.

I woudn't mind if this was the direction FFXIV headed.
#28 Dec 14 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I was also expecting and hoping for an XI-2. Heck, I would have been happy with just a graphics engine overhaul along with some much needed gameplay tweaks for FFXI.

Hydragyrum wrote:

Just because one innovation didn't work does not mean all innovations will not work. By your logic we might as well all go back to Pong because any innovation is crap, right?

The whole point of innovating is finding what works and what doesn't. No one has a perfect record. If you can't handle mistakes, setbacks, etc. you're probably better off playing an established game.

If you're going to innovate, you can't just blindly throw in new concepts. The way SE has been doing things reminds me of trying to innovate the wheel by turning it into a square, and upon noticing how crap it is, trying a triangle shape instead. You shouldn't have to test squares and triangles to realize how terrible ideas they are.

Sephrick wrote:

The community has made Gladiator the de facto tank in this game. Ignoring Maurader's parry and Pugilist's evasion. A Gladiator can be a Paladin by mixing it with Conjurer in the same way it can be a Thief by mixing it with Pugilist and Lance. It's in our hands to define our own roll.

Parry and Evasion don't really compare to what GLD has for damage mitigation (better gear and a shield). Also, a FFXI PLD was infinitely more adept at curing than a GLD subbing Cure or even Cure II in FFXIV. Cures also build very little hate in XIV, so it doesn't really work, anyway. I also have to nitpick at your use of the word roll as it does not have the same meaning, or even pronunciation, as the word role. It seems like in recent years that mistake has become more and more common and it's become a pet peeve of mine.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 1:09pm by Omena
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#29 Dec 14 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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RufuSwho wrote:
Ive been thinking alot about the parts of the EXP system from FFXI that I enjoyed.

1.) The level gap was small. The addition of Level Synch worked well - everyone recieved the same EXP.
2.) EXP Chains were fun. Getting Chain #5 was a entertaining goal for casual parties.
3.) AoE attacks worked with no EXP penalty.

I woudn't mind if this was the direction FFXIV headed.


To play devil's advocate, if you used an AoE in a FFXI exp party and actually hit more than 1 mob, you generally wiped your party. Before level sync, the small level gap hurt a lot of parties. I can't count the number of times someone leveled up right away, thus killing the effectiveness of the current camp. Exp chains while fun at first quickly led to elitist mentalities. Just ask any THF, DRG, BLU, PUP, insert-gimp-job-of-the-week, how much fun exp chains are.

I'm not saying your points are bad, they clearly worked decently in FFXI. But they are not the BEST systems. I'm sure SE can think of something new that will work at least as well as FFXI, but possibly better. I'm willing to sit through a few months of mistakes and fixes to see a new system come out. If you're not willing, there are plenty of games with well-known game mechanics to play.
#30 Dec 14 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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SolidMack wrote:
lostshroomie wrote:
How about they make both and see which ones makes it lol.. wouldnt be that hard to redo battle mechanics and sh*t just cut copy paste.


Yeaaa basically all they'd have to do is turn on FFXI, run to their favorite xp location, start fighting mobs and as they're doing that they just like take the cursor, highlight everything and click CTRL C, then they quickly switch to FFXIV and CTRL paste that puppy in there! its like taking candy from a baby.


Oh, so that's how computers work!
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#31 Dec 14 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
lostshroomie wrote:
How about they make both and see which ones makes it lol.. wouldnt be that hard to redo battle mechanics and sh*t just cut copy paste.


Yeaaa basically all they'd have to do is turn on FFXI, run to their favorite xp location, start fighting mobs and as they're doing that they just like take the cursor, highlight everything and click CTRL C, then they quickly switch to FFXIV and CTRL paste that puppy in there! its like taking candy from a baby.


Oh, so that's how computers work!



XD You people are killing me.

Seriously though they could backpedal all year but they're in a completely different pool of water than XI.

I certainly don't want another XI we HAVE XI it's right there! If you haven't played it I seriously recommend it.

Having said that there are game design aspects they could use in XIV it's just their implementation would have to be different because of the way everything works in XIV. (faster combat, healing while running, warping for everyone, no map/spell/access quests, none of the classes are the same and so forth)

I just had to say this one thing:

People buy the game for graphics but they stay for the gameplay.
#32 Dec 14 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
RufuSwho wrote:
Ive been thinking alot about the parts of the EXP system from FFXI that I enjoyed.

1.) The level gap was small. The addition of Level Synch worked well - everyone recieved the same EXP.
2.) EXP Chains were fun. Getting Chain #5 was a entertaining goal for casual parties.
3.) AoE attacks worked with no EXP penalty.

I woudn't mind if this was the direction FFXIV headed.


To play devil's advocate, if you used an AoE in a FFXI exp party and actually hit more than 1 mob, you generally wiped your party. Before level sync, the small level gap hurt a lot of parties. I can't count the number of times someone leveled up right away, thus killing the effectiveness of the current camp. Exp chains while fun at first quickly led to elitist mentalities. Just ask any THF, DRG, BLU, PUP, insert-gimp-job-of-the-week, how much fun exp chains are.

I'm not saying your points are bad, they clearly worked decently in FFXI. But they are not the BEST systems. I'm sure SE can think of something new that will work at least as well as FFXI, but possibly better. I'm willing to sit through a few months of mistakes and fixes to see a new system come out. If you're not willing, there are plenty of games with well-known game mechanics to play.


The points you raise are valid. Fills out the details of the cons to these systems.

I've seen some version of Level Synch in a few games now. It works for me. (I agree, someone leveling out of the camp on the second or third mob was rough!)

The point you raise against EXP chains seems to have more to do with balancing jobs and player elitism than against the system itself.

The AoE issue is delicate. The mobs in FFXI were far harder to kill even with a full party - and maybe that's true of FFXIV at higher levels.

Getting nerfed SP because you did not kill the enemies in the correct order seems like incomplete coding rather than a purposeful design decision.
#33 Dec 14 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I was expecting and hoping for FFXI-2 and didn't get it.

With that said, I think it would be a terrible idea for SE to try to turn FFXIV into FFXI-2. Some people like XIV and not XI, some like XI and not XIV, some like both, some like neither. Trying to make two copies of the same game is just silly, because then you're splitting one group of players between two games and giving the other group of players (The ones who like XIV) nothing but a clone of something they may not have liked.

Two words: New Coke.

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#34 Dec 14 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Seventhblood wrote:
I wish they would of went one way or the other. We have pretty much the same races with dif names, gladiator instead of paladin. Which makes no sense to me, when i think of a gladiator paladin does not come to mind.


Maybe try not to force XIV classes into XI jobs and it's less confusing. If you want a paladin, one can be made with gladiator. But a gladiator doesn't have to be a paladin.



This.

The community has made Gladiator the de facto tank in this game. Ignoring Maurader's parry and Pugilist's evasion. A Gladiator can be a Paladin by mixing it with Conjurer in the same way it can be a Thief by mixing it with Pugilist and Lance. It's in our hands to define our own roll.


Our LS tanks with any MRD, PUG, GLD online. I have my Vit high even with MRD so i can side tank if need be. I like how they did that so you dont need a GLD to have a successful party, things might change in end game tho.
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#35 Dec 14 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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I would not like to see XIV be turned into Xi-2 with better gfx

however taking working elements from XI to fix broken ones in XIV is not a bad idea.

party search functions would be my starting point

re-balance mobs make yellow and up nigh unkillable solo, however make green/blues give 100~ sp at level 20 or higher.
I love to have some solo time, but this is an MMO and grouping/socializing should be the main focus.

If you really want solo that bad, play offline.

but solo for somewhat decent exp or barely surviving a mob conning higher than even match should be the standard.

limit level difference in a party, thus eliminating a 15 person zerg fest.

The rest of the game is casual friendly because of the leve system anyways, wanna try an NM sure adjust it to your level and skill, wanna solo fight something that's killable.

It seems to me we complain about easy mode in XIV, but then do not want harder more challenging fights because a mob is not dead in 17 seconds . . . . I am sorry but it does not make any sense to me.

I would like to see a lot more gear added to the game, both dropped/earned from leve's/instances, or open world nm's

crafted gear from mats.

Having such a reliances on people crafting seems a little over done. I was a high level crafter in XI and value the merits of crafting. I do however, do want to see gear gotten by other methods and pieces and gear sets to have str's and weaknesses between dropped and crafted.

#36 Dec 14 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
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I would quit the game if they SWG change it to XI-2.
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#37 Dec 14 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
For the sake of argument...

Omena wrote:
Sephrick wrote:

The community has made Gladiator the de facto tank in this game. Ignoring Maurader's parry and Pugilist's evasion. A Gladiator can be a Paladin by mixing it with Conjurer in the same way it can be a Thief by mixing it with Pugilist and Lance. It's in our hands to define our own roll.


I also have to nitpick at your use of the word roll as it does not have the same meaning, or even pronunciation, as the word role. It seems like in recent years that mistake has become more and more common and it's become a pet peeve of mine.


I agree that roll and role have different meanings, but they have the same pronunciation. I'm not sure why you would say that they don't.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/roll
   /roʊl/ [rohl]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/role
   /roʊl/ [rohl]

I don't disagree that he used the wrong word, just wondering how you're figuring that they're pronounced differently.
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#38 Dec 14 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

I agree that roll and role have different meanings, but they have the same pronunciation. I'm not sure why you would say that they don't.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/roll
   /roʊl/ [rohl]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/role
   /roʊl/ [rohl]

I don't disagree that he used the wrong word, just wondering how you're figuring that they're pronounced differently.

Interesting. It must be a dialect thing because usually I hear a slightly more defined diphtong used for role. Not that I hear it too often as I don't actually live in an English speaking country. I could be mistaken. *shrugs*



Edited, Dec 14th 2010 6:34pm by Omena
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#39 Dec 14 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Aurelius wrote:
Imaboomer wrote:
Does that mean u dont watch sequel to movies or play Kingdom hearts series or play sequels to games in general? Right.. just because the core gameplay remains doesnt make it the same game.


The point you're missing is that a lot of people didn't like the core gameplay elements in FFXI so when SE says they're making a brand new game to include comments that they would like some things to be familiar to FFXI players (ie races) but that they're looking at making something quite different, the last thing they can afford to do is backtrack and make FFXI-2.

See, on one hand you've got some people who would love FFXI-2, but for them to have expected it based on what we were told would be extremely foolish.

On the other hand, you've got people who do not want FFXI-2, and for it to be forced on them now that they've bought and paid for the game would be a severe disappointment for them.

SE said they were making a new MMO as part of the Final Fantasy franchise, not a sequel to FFXI. I'm counting on them to stick to that.


Aur, what sorts of things would you consider to be going in the direction of XI-2?
#40 Dec 14 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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11,576 posts
Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Aur, what sorts of things would you consider to be going in the direction of XI-2?


Largely anything people say they want SE to replace existing systems with because the liked the XI systems better. (Excluding AH...I still hate all the QQ about it but I wouldn't mind an AH and it would cut a lot of the whining dramatically.)

For example, "Scrap the BR system and put in skillchains instead." Lame. If they're going to scrap the BR system I'd rather see them replace it with something else that's new and not so heavily reminiscent of XI.

Scrapping the durability system and replacing it with xp loss on death. Double lame.

XP chains. Triple lame. The last thing I want to see is SE steering people in the direction of maximum efficiency again. When I played...*ahem*...that other game, I would get ******* out on a not uncommon basis for going too fast as a tank and not giving people enough time to **** around between pulls. I'm no stranger to a fast pace but when you start putting an incentive on it by applying a bonus to it, it has a subtle but nefarious effect on the community. You know FFXI is the only MMO I've ever played where success or failure is measured in xp(merits)/hour? Lame lame lame.

They're already gating a big chunk of the new NM content behind faction credits. It's not as bad as BCNMs but why? Why bother? Build real content around them instead of just "go to camp, trigger NM spawn by activating leve, fight NM, ???, profit (?)" crap. I'd have an easier time with a 1 in 10 drop rate on the NM if it was something you could gather a group of people and do a bit of a dungeon crawl and fight a few "NMs" along the way for an hour and then if you want to go again you can. Good times. It's a very popular concept. But no, the fun content must be rewarding and the rewarding content must be gated. FFXI? Awfully **** close.

You've got your goblins coming back and flans aren't an FFXI exclusive. Yay goblins?

There are a seemingly endless number of things people want to see changed with the game and that's fine. I've got a list of my own. It would become an issue for me if the lion's share of the changes seemed to be less a case of, "okay, that's not working so let's approach it from a different angle" and more of, "okay, that didn't go over so well so just do like we did in FFXI and call it a day."
#41 Dec 14 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,566 posts
Omena wrote:
I was also expecting and hoping for an XI-2. Heck, I would have been happy with just a graphics engine overhaul along with some much needed gameplay tweaks for FFXI.

Sephrick wrote:

The community has made Gladiator the de facto tank in this game. Ignoring Maurader's parry and Pugilist's evasion. A Gladiator can be a Paladin by mixing it with Conjurer in the same way it can be a Thief by mixing it with Pugilist and Lance. It's in our hands to define our own roll.


Parry and Evasion don't really compare to what GLD has for damage mitigation (better gear and a shield). Also, a FFXI PLD was infinitely more adept at curing than a GLD subbing Cure or even Cure II in FFXIV. Cures also build very little hate in XIV, so it doesn't really work, anyway. I also have to nitpick at your use of the word roll as it does not have the same meaning, or even pronunciation, as the word role. It seems like in recent years that mistake has become more and more common and it's become a pet peeve of mine.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 1:09pm by Omena



You're right, cures don't generate as much hate. That's why they have Provoke, Taunt, Haymaker, Phalanx and so on and so forth -- assuming they level more than just Gladiator. My point was if someone wants to be a self-healing tank, they can be. As far as "better gear," Marauder can wear most everything a Gladiator can. Besides, as someone who has been playing since Phase 3 beta, I feel secure in saying there is little difference in the amount of damage each class takes when getting hit by an exp mob. My Conjurer could stand against the same mobs my Gladiator could with the same survivability. That's why we're eventually going to have group vs group combat (unless the new team decides against that route). Look at all the jobs, they're all designed to stand alone as long as they're facing a small number of targets.

However, if someone plans for the role, they can be as efficient a Paladin as a Paladin was in XI. Assuming they put proper point totals in the correct stats. Though, that's tough to compare exactly because this isn't XI, and a Gladiator isn't really a Paladin, it's a Gladiator that can feel like a Paladin.

This need for a tank stems from people trying to party like they did in XI. But that just doesn't work. The best party I've had in XIV to date was with two Lancers and a Thaumaturge.

Also, fights take significantly less time than they did in XI. In XI, Paladin needed more hates tools to endure a longer fight as well as coordination from the team to ensure the hate threshold was respected. In XIV, folks can just spam the 1 key and WS at will as long as the tank claimed the mob then fired off a hate ability.

And to your last note. I spent years as a journalist. In my time, I learned a few things to be true about the nature of the business. One of them was that every single day, of the hundreds of thousands of words we printed, some crabby jackass would take the time to call us and make it seem like the world had ended and that we were a trash publication because of the one typo we let slip through.

I don't know what kind of oddball accent you have, but where I come from, role and roll sound exactly the same. A large part of my training in college involved preparation for broadcasting, so I'm pretty sure my years of vocal training to project and enunciate for the camera has me pronouncing the words correctly. It was an honest mistake as I do take the time to spell check my posts. I mean, it's not like I said "should of."

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 10:18pm by Sephrick
#42 Dec 14 2010 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
18 posts
Omena wrote:
If you're going to innovate, you can't just blindly throw in new concepts. The way SE has been doing things reminds me of trying to innovate the wheel by turning it into a square, and upon noticing how crap it is, trying a triangle shape instead. You shouldn't have to test squares and triangles to realize how terrible ideas they are.


I find this to be the perfect analogy as the wheel does not need to re-invented, it works fine as it is and that's exactly what SE are becoming notorious for. If they want to innovate anything, it should be the quests which pretty much boil down to "GO KILL IMPZ" right now. At least class quests are a bit more involving... Sometimes... Well, they have their own issues too but that's a story for another day.
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#43 Dec 14 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
43 posts
Sephrick wrote:
Omena wrote:
I was also expecting and hoping for an XI-2. Heck, I would have been happy with just a graphics engine overhaul along with some much needed gameplay tweaks for FFXI.

Sephrick wrote:

The community has made Gladiator the de facto tank in this game. Ignoring Maurader's parry and Pugilist's evasion. A Gladiator can be a Paladin by mixing it with Conjurer in the same way it can be a Thief by mixing it with Pugilist and Lance. It's in our hands to define our own roll.


Parry and Evasion don't really compare to what GLD has for damage mitigation (better gear and a shield). Also, a FFXI PLD was infinitely more adept at curing than a GLD subbing Cure or even Cure II in FFXIV. Cures also build very little hate in XIV, so it doesn't really work, anyway. I also have to nitpick at your use of the word roll as it does not have the same meaning, or even pronunciation, as the word role. It seems like in recent years that mistake has become more and more common and it's become a pet peeve of mine.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 1:09pm by Omena



You're right, cures don't generate as much hate. That's why they have Provoke, Taunt, Haymaker, Phalanx and so on and so forth -- assuming they level more than just Gladiator. My point was if someone wants to be a self-healing tank, they can be. As far as "better gear," Marauder can wear most everything a Gladiator can. Besides, as someone who has been playing since Phase 3 beta, I feel secure in saying there is little difference in the amount of damage each class takes when getting hit by an exp mob. My Conjurer could stand against the same mobs my Gladiator could with the same survivability. That's why we're eventually going to have group vs group combat (unless the new team decides against that route). Look at all the jobs, they're all designed to stand alone as long as they're facing a small number of targets.

However, if someone plans for the role, they can be as efficient a Paladin as a Paladin was in XI. Assuming they put proper point totals in the correct stats. Though, that's tough to compare exactly because this isn't XI, and a Gladiator isn't really a Paladin, it's a Gladiator that can feel like a Paladin.

This need for a tank stems from people trying to party like they did in XI. But that just doesn't work. The best party I've had in XIV to date was with two Lancers and a Thaumaturge.

Also, fights take significantly less time than they did in XI. In XI, Paladin needed more hates tools to endure a longer fight as well as coordination from the team to ensure the hate threshold was respected. In XIV, folks can just spam the 1 key and WS at will as long as the tank claimed the mob then fired off a hate ability.

And to your last note. I spent years as a journalist. In my time, I learned a few things to be true about the nature of the business. One of them was that every single day, of the hundreds of thousands of words we printed, some crabby jackass would take the time to call us and make it seem like the world had ended and that we were a trash publication because of the one typo we let slip through.

I don't know what kind of oddball accent you have, but where I come from, role and roll sound exactly the same. A large part of my training in college involved preparation for broadcasting, so I'm pretty sure my years of vocal training to project and enunciate for the camera has me pronouncing the words correctly. It was an honest mistake as I do take the time to spell check my posts. I mean, it's not like I said "should of."

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 10:18pm by Sephrick

So wait we are supposed to celebrate the fact that no matter what job you level you will be the same at the end with no class difference or individuality? Just jump in there and zerg everything theres a few issues with this. I cannot see how people can possibly get excited about this. I guess if you are one of the people that wanted to play your paladin as a healer in xi and got laughed at this is your big chance, but a straight zerg would be no fun in a game ever to me and I would dare to say alot of other players. maybe im wrong let me know.
thanks,
Big Jer
____________________________


#44 Dec 15 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
unclejer wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
Omena wrote:
I was also expecting and hoping for an XI-2. Heck, I would have been happy with just a graphics engine overhaul along with some much needed gameplay tweaks for FFXI.

Sephrick wrote:

The community has made Gladiator the de facto tank in this game. Ignoring Maurader's parry and Pugilist's evasion. A Gladiator can be a Paladin by mixing it with Conjurer in the same way it can be a Thief by mixing it with Pugilist and Lance. It's in our hands to define our own roll.


Parry and Evasion don't really compare to what GLD has for damage mitigation (better gear and a shield). Also, a FFXI PLD was infinitely more adept at curing than a GLD subbing Cure or even Cure II in FFXIV. Cures also build very little hate in XIV, so it doesn't really work, anyway. I also have to nitpick at your use of the word roll as it does not have the same meaning, or even pronunciation, as the word role. It seems like in recent years that mistake has become more and more common and it's become a pet peeve of mine.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 1:09pm by Omena



You're right, cures don't generate as much hate. That's why they have Provoke, Taunt, Haymaker, Phalanx and so on and so forth -- assuming they level more than just Gladiator. My point was if someone wants to be a self-healing tank, they can be. As far as "better gear," Marauder can wear most everything a Gladiator can. Besides, as someone who has been playing since Phase 3 beta, I feel secure in saying there is little difference in the amount of damage each class takes when getting hit by an exp mob. My Conjurer could stand against the same mobs my Gladiator could with the same survivability. That's why we're eventually going to have group vs group combat (unless the new team decides against that route). Look at all the jobs, they're all designed to stand alone as long as they're facing a small number of targets.

However, if someone plans for the role, they can be as efficient a Paladin as a Paladin was in XI. Assuming they put proper point totals in the correct stats. Though, that's tough to compare exactly because this isn't XI, and a Gladiator isn't really a Paladin, it's a Gladiator that can feel like a Paladin.

This need for a tank stems from people trying to party like they did in XI. But that just doesn't work. The best party I've had in XIV to date was with two Lancers and a Thaumaturge.

Also, fights take significantly less time than they did in XI. In XI, Paladin needed more hates tools to endure a longer fight as well as coordination from the team to ensure the hate threshold was respected. In XIV, folks can just spam the 1 key and WS at will as long as the tank claimed the mob then fired off a hate ability.

And to your last note. I spent years as a journalist. In my time, I learned a few things to be true about the nature of the business. One of them was that every single day, of the hundreds of thousands of words we printed, some crabby jackass would take the time to call us and make it seem like the world had ended and that we were a trash publication because of the one typo we let slip through.

I don't know what kind of oddball accent you have, but where I come from, role and roll sound exactly the same. A large part of my training in college involved preparation for broadcasting, so I'm pretty sure my years of vocal training to project and enunciate for the camera has me pronouncing the words correctly. It was an honest mistake as I do take the time to spell check my posts. I mean, it's not like I said "should of."

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 10:18pm by Sephrick

So wait we are supposed to celebrate the fact that no matter what job you level you will be the same at the end with no class difference or individuality? Just jump in there and zerg everything theres a few issues with this. I cannot see how people can possibly get excited about this. I guess if you are one of the people that wanted to play your paladin as a healer in xi and got laughed at this is your big chance, but a straight zerg would be no fun in a game ever to me and I would dare to say alot of other players. maybe im wrong let me know.
thanks,
Big Jer


Hey Jer,

I see where exactly you're getting at about combat, and I feel this type of gameplay came along from the newer MMO's out right now WOW, AION, LOTRO, and what not. Its not a bad thing, but the thing is with fast paced combat this is what will happen. People will spam because they can, tank and spank is a large part of the MMO culture. Look at the Newer MMO's coming out Tera, Vindictus, and GW2 all are aiming for faster kills and battle mechanics.

The EQ/XI type of battle system for the most part is considered dated/obsolete/too slow by todays MMO standards. XIV was developed to meet the gaming demands of todays player. Most of all many people are driven for fast, flashy, and big number attacks. nothing feels better then nuking that mob for that highest amount of damage.

My quarrel with todays newest MMO and even RPG's to an extent is the time it takes to kill a mob. I preferred a fight to last 1-3 minutes instead of 15 seconds as in most MMO's and rpg's. Boss fights I would like to see those epic 1-2 hour battle where full alliances are cycling new rested and prepped people for the ones they dropped. It feels like a battle where loosing is a very real possibility and then when to boss goes down, seeing that item or material drop that i wanted so badly or someone else did.

Again my wishes extend from my nostalgia from playing XI, that was what I enjoyed most. Those kirin battles, fighting Jorm, tiamat, or vrtra. Even the land kings or the sea HNM's was such a challenge and engrossing experience. I've ocme to the conclusion that aside from SE, those days are long gone.

I've been playing WoW for the better part of 6 months now, and I do enjoy the fast playability. Most dungeons last from 15-60 minutes or so, not counting the new cata ones those are intense. I am thankfull for that added difficulty right now because I feel WoW needed that. I am hoping that battle will get balanced and sorted and SP values will become more even as well. Until then I am enjoying some cata and growing my XIV char in case SE does go a little retro and brings back their magic.
#45 Dec 15 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
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3,178 posts
Aurelius wrote:
XP chains. Triple lame. The last thing I want to see is SE steering people in the direction of maximum efficiency again. When I played...*ahem*...that other game, I would get ******* out on a not uncommon basis for going too fast as a tank and not giving people enough time to @#%^ around between pulls. I'm no stranger to a fast pace but when you start putting an incentive on it by applying a bonus to it, it has a subtle but nefarious effect on the community. You know FFXI is the only MMO I've ever played where success or failure is measured in xp(merits)/hour? Lame lame lame.


So the system makes players elitists? I would say the players make themselves elitists.

I find it hard to blame questionable character traits in players on game mechanics.


Edited, Dec 15th 2010 11:25am by RufuSwho
#46 Dec 15 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
RufuSwho wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
XP chains. Triple lame. The last thing I want to see is SE steering people in the direction of maximum efficiency again. When I played...*ahem*...that other game, I would get ******* out on a not uncommon basis for going too fast as a tank and not giving people enough time to @#%^ around between pulls. I'm no stranger to a fast pace but when you start putting an incentive on it by applying a bonus to it, it has a subtle but nefarious effect on the community. You know FFXI is the only MMO I've ever played where success or failure is measured in xp(merits)/hour? Lame lame lame.


So the system makes players elitists? I would say the players make themselves elitists.

I find it hard to blame questionable character traits in players on game mechanics.


Edited, Dec 15th 2010 11:25am by RufuSwho


It's not really that the game makes players elitists, so much as the game has been designed in such a way that players end up becoming elitists.

The game has such a massive discrepancy between "doing it in the most optimal manner" versus being a unique and special snowflake, that the better players simply don't want to do anything sub-optimally.
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#47 Dec 15 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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800 posts
RufuSwho wrote:
So the system makes players elitists? I would say the players make themselves elitists.

I find it hard to blame questionable character traits in players on game mechanics.


Yes and no. Of course for someone to be elitist they need to have that tendency in them. But when the game mechanics blatantly reward players for ultra-efficiency (Exp chain #100!) it's easy for elitists to justify their attitudes. When someone taking a 2 minute break to use the toilet destroys your exp-chain, something is wrong with the game mechanics.
#48 Dec 15 2010 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
RufuSwho wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
XP chains. Triple lame. The last thing I want to see is SE steering people in the direction of maximum efficiency again. When I played...*ahem*...that other game, I would get ******* out on a not uncommon basis for going too fast as a tank and not giving people enough time to @#%^ around between pulls. I'm no stranger to a fast pace but when you start putting an incentive on it by applying a bonus to it, it has a subtle but nefarious effect on the community. You know FFXI is the only MMO I've ever played where success or failure is measured in xp(merits)/hour? Lame lame lame.


So the system makes players elitists? I would say the players make themselves elitists.

I find it hard to blame questionable character traits in players on game mechanics.



Don't put words in my mouth. I never mentioned the word elitist. I don't even like the word elitist. It's so often misused and abused by crybabies it has practically lost all meaning.

The point is that a system that places a bonus on prolonged efficiency creates a rift between players at the most basic level of the game. It's not about being elitist because you have to be elite before you can be an elitist. But dangle a carrot in front of an ignorant douchebag and all of a sudden that's the most important thing in the world. When you take an abstract concept like sp/hour as your carrot, the sky's the limit on the demands morons start making. And if you fall off track for whatever reason the game tells you so when you start over again at chain #1. It's a stupid system that had its day in FFXI and would represent a gross lack of imagination on the part of the devs if they fell back to it in FFXIV. Rewarding grinding is a horribly artificial way to make the game seem like it has content it doesn't have. Every MMO contains a component of grinding but the idea is that the pure grinding is what you do between substantial blocks of content, not the other way around. XP chains turn the focus into grinding with mediocre blocks of content in between, and that's an unacceptable way to develop an MMO in this day and age.
#49 Dec 15 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
*
170 posts
Gamebreaker's Gary and Kenzie?! I have strong doubts they even play the game at all. Not only do they routinely make up things like 'spagetti code' and 'no ps3 version' and that 'microtransaction system' being set up.

This week both said they don't play much if at all. How can you host a podcast on something you don't like or play?

Edited for clarification~

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 12:54pm by AceAmallie
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#50 Dec 15 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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473 posts
Aurelius wrote:
RufuSwho wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
XP chains. Triple lame. The last thing I want to see is SE steering people in the direction of maximum efficiency again. When I played...*ahem*...that other game, I would get ******* out on a not uncommon basis for going too fast as a tank and not giving people enough time to @#%^ around between pulls. I'm no stranger to a fast pace but when you start putting an incentive on it by applying a bonus to it, it has a subtle but nefarious effect on the community. You know FFXI is the only MMO I've ever played where success or failure is measured in xp(merits)/hour? Lame lame lame.


So the system makes players elitists? I would say the players make themselves elitists.

I find it hard to blame questionable character traits in players on game mechanics.



Don't put words in my mouth. I never mentioned the word elitist. I don't even like the word elitist. It's so often misused and abused by crybabies it has practically lost all meaning.

The point is that a system that places a bonus on prolonged efficiency creates a rift between players at the most basic level of the game. It's not about being elitist because you have to be elite before you can be an elitist. But dangle a carrot in front of an ignorant douchebag and all of a sudden that's the most important thing in the world. When you take an abstract concept like sp/hour as your carrot, the sky's the limit on the demands morons start making. And if you fall off track for whatever reason the game tells you so when you start over again at chain #1. It's a stupid system that had its day in FFXI and would represent a gross lack of imagination on the part of the devs if they fell back to it in FFXIV. Rewarding grinding is a horribly artificial way to make the game seem like it has content it doesn't have. Every MMO contains a component of grinding but the idea is that the pure grinding is what you do between substantial blocks of content, not the other way around. XP chains turn the focus into grinding with mediocre blocks of content in between, and that's an unacceptable way to develop an MMO in this day and age.


See I have no problems with an EXP chain system, that was always fun. I wouldn't say its elitist at all, it makes grinding more fun and challenges you to do better in a party environment. Yes I've had good pugs, bad pugs, friend exp pt's, and ls exp pt's in XI. Its a portion of the content but it was fun when things went well, and every chain reset we tried harder to beat our last chain.

Its not the system it was some of the players who we exp chains ****'s, no chain 100 ***** you! i'm out, type of mentality. That's a party to party problem not a weakness of the way the exp system was designed. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that back, i would welcome it.

I would like to see only that parties don't have to be cookie cutter, for the most part otherwise, anything that makes things interesting and fun I'm down.
#51 Dec 15 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Good
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222 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:
Seventhblood wrote:
I wish they would of went one way or the other. We have pretty much the same races with dif names, gladiator instead of paladin. Which makes no sense to me, when i think of a gladiator paladin does not come to mind.


Maybe try not to force XIV classes into XI jobs and it's less confusing. If you want a paladin, one can be made with gladiator. But a gladiator doesn't have to be a paladin.


This is true, when i solo with Gladiator I have a build more like a red mage.


Edited, Dec 15th 2010 1:14pm by Seventhblood
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