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#52 Dec 15 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Speeral wrote:

See I have no problems with an EXP chain system, that was always fun. I wouldn't say its elitist at all, it makes grinding more fun and challenges you to do better in a party environment. Yes I've had good pugs, bad pugs, friend exp pt's, and ls exp pt's in XI. Its a portion of the content but it was fun when things went well, and every chain reset we tried harder to beat our last chain.

Its not the system it was some of the players who we exp chains ****'s, no chain 100 ***** you! i'm out, type of mentality. That's a party to party problem not a weakness of the way the exp system was designed. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that back, i would welcome it.


What you might be overlooking is that in FFXI, for the longest time the grind was the game. It wasn't until ToAU that SE finally started to get their head out and look around and realize that gating everything and doling it out in little bits and pieces between massive grinds was ridiculous. Sure, by all means, throw in bonuses to make people forget that they're doing the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours before moving on to somewhere else to do the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours (only different mobs and different zones!). That was the game.

Now we're into second (third?) generation MMOs with well over a decade of watching the genre evolve. If SE were to implement SP chains, that would suggest very strongly to me that they never feel they're going to have enough real content to keep people interested. When I first read about levequests I was picturing things in line with what other MMOs do where certain levequests unlock certain related levequests and it becomes more a journey than a grind. We see just the tiniest bit of that concept in faction leves now where you do the ones available to you for a particular rank and then you show up at the next reset and there are three more new ones. And the connection between the ones you already did and the new ones in tenuous at best.

In other games, when I'm involved in group content while leveling up I'm not looking at my xp bar. I'm involved in the content. I'm having fun (unless the group is full of drooling yokels, but that's beside the point). And then when it's over and I look at my xp bar, there's all this xp I didn't have at the start. I didn't need bonus this or increased that or any of that crap because I was enjoying the process of playing the game. When the best the devs have to offer is bonuses to SP because there's **** all else to do, they've missed the boat.

SE says the recognize that a significant shortcoming in the game right now is a lack of content and I'm counting on them to follow through on providing that content in abundance and in relatively short order because MMOs built around monotonous grinds went out of style years ago.
#53 Dec 15 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
RufuSwho wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
XP chains. Triple lame. The last thing I want to see is SE steering people in the direction of maximum efficiency again. When I played...*ahem*...that other game, I would get ******* out on a not uncommon basis for going too fast as a tank and not giving people enough time to @#%^ around between pulls. I'm no stranger to a fast pace but when you start putting an incentive on it by applying a bonus to it, it has a subtle but nefarious effect on the community. You know FFXI is the only MMO I've ever played where success or failure is measured in xp(merits)/hour? Lame lame lame.


So the system makes players elitists? I would say the players make themselves elitists.

I find it hard to blame questionable character traits in players on game mechanics.



Don't put words in my mouth. I never mentioned the word elitist. I don't even like the word elitist. It's so often misused and abused by crybabies it has practically lost all meaning.

The point is that a system that places a bonus on prolonged efficiency creates a rift between players at the most basic level of the game. It's not about being elitist because you have to be elite before you can be an elitist. But dangle a carrot in front of an ignorant douchebag and all of a sudden that's the most important thing in the world. When you take an abstract concept like sp/hour as your carrot, the sky's the limit on the demands morons start making. And if you fall off track for whatever reason the game tells you so when you start over again at chain #1. It's a stupid system that had its day in FFXI and would represent a gross lack of imagination on the part of the devs if they fell back to it in FFXIV. Rewarding grinding is a horribly artificial way to make the game seem like it has content it doesn't have. Every MMO contains a component of grinding but the idea is that the pure grinding is what you do between substantial blocks of content, not the other way around. XP chains turn the focus into grinding with mediocre blocks of content in between, and that's an unacceptable way to develop an MMO in this day and age.


"Placing a bonus on prolonged efficiency" is a game mechanic that has been successful since Pac-man. One success builds and the next and that last ghost is worth 1600. Woohoo! The original EXP chain.

I find that to be fun.

If this "creates a rift between players" then the players need to go home and reexamine their lives.
#54 Dec 15 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Speeral wrote:

See I have no problems with an EXP chain system, that was always fun. I wouldn't say its elitist at all, it makes grinding more fun and challenges you to do better in a party environment. Yes I've had good pugs, bad pugs, friend exp pt's, and ls exp pt's in XI. Its a portion of the content but it was fun when things went well, and every chain reset we tried harder to beat our last chain.

Its not the system it was some of the players who we exp chains ****'s, no chain 100 ***** you! i'm out, type of mentality. That's a party to party problem not a weakness of the way the exp system was designed. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that back, i would welcome it.


What you might be overlooking is that in FFXI, for the longest time the grind was the game. It wasn't until ToAU that SE finally started to get their head out and look around and realize that gating everything and doling it out in little bits and pieces between massive grinds was ridiculous. Sure, by all means, throw in bonuses to make people forget that they're doing the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours before moving on to somewhere else to do the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours (only different mobs and different zones!). That was the game.

Now we're into second (third?) generation MMOs with well over a decade of watching the genre evolve. If SE were to implement SP chains, that would suggest very strongly to me that they never feel they're going to have enough real content to keep people interested. When I first read about levequests I was picturing things in line with what other MMOs do where certain levequests unlock certain related levequests and it becomes more a journey than a grind. We see just the tiniest bit of that concept in faction leves now where you do the ones available to you for a particular rank and then you show up at the next reset and there are three more new ones. And the connection between the ones you already did and the new ones in tenuous at best.

In other games, when I'm involved in group content while leveling up I'm not looking at my xp bar. I'm involved in the content. I'm having fun (unless the group is full of drooling yokels, but that's beside the point). And then when it's over and I look at my xp bar, there's all this xp I didn't have at the start. I didn't need bonus this or increased that or any of that crap because I was enjoying the process of playing the game. When the best the devs have to offer is bonuses to SP because there's @#%^ all else to do, they've missed the boat.

SE says the recognize that a significant shortcoming in the game right now is a lack of content and I'm counting on them to follow through on providing that content in abundance and in relatively short order because MMOs built around monotonous grinds went out of style years ago.


I'm not seeing the direct line between EXP chains and lack of other content.

You seem to be taking this very seriously. Not trying to upset you you at all. I fact, I would like to understand better if possible. I'm interested in your ideas about the drawbacks of EXP chains, but I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning thus far.

I think we can agree that EXP chains are not in any way a priority for implementation, nor are they something that makes up for a lack of content.

I had so many EXP parties with reasonable and polite players, and we had a really good time trying to reach #5. That's all I'm saying really. I only merited for a year or so. Perhaps you spent more time meriting and attribute the mentality of some of those parties to the EXP chain system. I can understand that.

I hope you can also recall the times where you had a ho-hum mediocre party but had a good time anyway because the players were just polite and fun to play with.
#55 Dec 15 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Default
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Aurelius wrote:
Speeral wrote:

See I have no problems with an EXP chain system, that was always fun. I wouldn't say its elitist at all, it makes grinding more fun and challenges you to do better in a party environment. Yes I've had good pugs, bad pugs, friend exp pt's, and ls exp pt's in XI. Its a portion of the content but it was fun when things went well, and every chain reset we tried harder to beat our last chain.

Its not the system it was some of the players who we exp chains ****'s, no chain 100 ***** you! i'm out, type of mentality. That's a party to party problem not a weakness of the way the exp system was designed. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that back, i would welcome it.


What you might be overlooking is that in FFXI, for the longest time the grind was the game. It wasn't until ToAU that SE finally started to get their head out and look around and realize that gating everything and doling it out in little bits and pieces between massive grinds was ridiculous. Sure, by all means, throw in bonuses to make people forget that they're doing the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours before moving on to somewhere else to do the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours (only different mobs and different zones!). That was the game.

Now we're into second (third?) generation MMOs with well over a decade of watching the genre evolve. If SE were to implement SP chains, that would suggest very strongly to me that they never feel they're going to have enough real content to keep people interested. When I first read about levequests I was picturing things in line with what other MMOs do where certain levequests unlock certain related levequests and it becomes more a journey than a grind. We see just the tiniest bit of that concept in faction leves now where you do the ones available to you for a particular rank and then you show up at the next reset and there are three more new ones. And the connection between the ones you already did and the new ones in tenuous at best.

In other games, when I'm involved in group content while leveling up I'm not looking at my xp bar. I'm involved in the content. I'm having fun (unless the group is full of drooling yokels, but that's beside the point). And then when it's over and I look at my xp bar, there's all this xp I didn't have at the start. I didn't need bonus this or increased that or any of that crap because I was enjoying the process of playing the game. When the best the devs have to offer is bonuses to SP because there's @#%^ all else to do, they've missed the boat.

SE says the recognize that a significant shortcoming in the game right now is a lack of content and I'm counting on them to follow through on providing that content in abundance and in relatively short order because MMOs built around monotonous grinds went out of style years ago.

I have to ask have you played final fantasy games much? The system you are describing is in place in a game called wow. To me the true crime would be to take our beloved final fantasy down that path. Sure leveling in ffxi was a grind, to get to the content that was acess to sky, sea, toa areas etc. One thing I dont understand is that SE in xi had the hardcore mmo crowd it is what they thrived on. So why now do so many extremely casual gamers expect them to change. I could have told everyone SE's idea of casual gaming as a japanese company would be far different than western opinons. They have a formula that made them one of the top mmo companies for many years and still is being played and content added, why o why expect them to change. reality is if they went 1/2 way and made this closer to xi they could close xi down at ps3 release because the people from there would roll those subscriptions over. I'm sorry but I do not play wow just like I do not play farmville I am not a casual gamer and to make wow challenging you have to do hard modes, well to do that you have to find 10-25 good players from the sea of farmville players. Granted the new ideas could have worked, but they did not. To expect the player base to wait while they come up with more inovative ideas that may or may not work is just plain a broken idea. T ake what is needed to make this game fly from ffxi and lets move on maybe in 2-3 years they can implement some of these ideas in ffville for face book that some people seem to think is what we need. I realize im going to get flamed but good god its a final fantasy titla and a japanese mmo surprise surprise its not easy mode and it takes a grind.
thanks for your time,
Big Jer
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#56 Dec 15 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
We see just the tiniest bit of that concept in faction leves now where you do the ones available to you for a particular rank and then you show up at the next reset and there are three more new ones. And the connection between the ones you already did and the new ones in tenuous at best.


Actually, this seems to be already the case with normal leves too. Some of them have a silver lining in the card and aren't available until you clear a prerequisite leve first.

Without a list of completed leves it's hard to notice though.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#57 Dec 15 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's not really that the game makes players elitists, so much as the game has been designed in such a way that players end up becoming elitists.

The game has such a massive discrepancy between "doing it in the most optimal manner" versus being a unique and special snowflake, that the better players simply don't want to do anything sub-optimally.


"Better players" is pretty subjective. To me a "better player" can accept party members that are not optimal and still have a good time.

Are you advocating that FFXIV not reward varying degrees of performance with varying degrees of reward? Please elaborate a bit if you have time. I don't know that answer to this myself and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

It's a balance between rewarding the optimal with a bonus and it's polar opposite - you play you win! As many have noted, you just can't have both.

I think we've wandered into the age old topic of the casual and hardcore gamers, one that will live on for as long as multiplayer games are played.

BTW, Merry Christmas Mik!

#58 Dec 15 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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RufuSwho wrote:

I'm not seeing the direct line between EXP chains and lack of other content.


Why would a developer need to append a bonus to grinding if people didn't have to spend a lot of time grinding? If you're enjoying a process, why do you need to get through it faster? SE started on the right track with the concept of leves. That's where your bonus comes in. You're being rewarded for participating in the content. The issue right now is that the content is extremely shallow. I mean, can you imagine SE putting in SP chains to reward grinding and still gating access to Guardian's Aspect with the slow recharge of Divine Favor? SE limits the number of leves you can do because they say the rewards are too good to have everyone earning them constantly. They say they intended leves for group play and they want people to play in groups and then they gate the only real content in the game. And if their solution for that (instead of adding more content) is to simply reward efficient grinding...what? What year is it?

SE has it backwards on so many different levels. They've lost touch with what gamers want. A year or so ago I would have said that every RPG video game I've ever played had an element of grind to it but even that is no longer true. Bioware cut out almost the entire grind process from DA and Mass Effect. "Give me something to do and give me a reason to do it beyond simply accumulating numbers." I had mixed feelings about the finite numbers of encounters in games like Dragon Age ad Mass Effect. At the end of the day, if I had to choose between grinding and taking part in a deep, compelling story, I'm going to take the story every single time. That's why I'm an RPG fan and not an arcade of FPS fan. And in order to make an MMO work, a developer needs to keep that in mind at all times and the instant they start thinking about how to make the grind more appealing instead of investing that time adding content, they're on dangerous ground.

The PS3 version of FFXIV is delayed because SE has too many things to work out and not enough people to do it. They need to be working on ways to make the game more robust and entertaining, not figuring out how to blast people through the lack of content ASAP.
#59 Dec 15 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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unclejer wrote:

I have to ask have you played final fantasy games much? The system you are describing is in place in a game called wow. To me the true crime would be to take our beloved final fantasy down that path.


I've played every FF game except 13. And what I've described is not exclusive to WoW. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Quest driven games (which FFXIV is NOT) with instanced group content are nothing new to the genre and they're extremely successful mechanics to help create an engaging, robust world.

Quote:
Sure leveling in ffxi was a grind, to get to the content that was acess to sky, sea, toa areas etc. One thing I dont understand is that SE in xi had the hardcore mmo crowd it is what they thrived on. So why now do so many extremely casual gamers expect them to change.


We didn't expect them to change. They told us they were changing. There's a difference. You can have hardcore elements in a casual game but it's very difficult to include true casual elements in a hardcore game. Savvy MMO developers aim for both. Idiots demand space for only one type of player. It's not about, "why do you expect them to change." It's about reading the ******* information they gave us and not expecting them to have meant something else.
#60 Dec 15 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes but again SE is not known as a casual company. Just the fact that they are based in japan is a telling fact to what casual would be in this game. I mean come on now the new casual friendly games are almost exclusively western. I am not arguing that content is needed but SE historically made the side quests and such not related to sp or exp but to reputation with factions. The leeve system is somewhat interesting as a idea but its not by a long shot going to get you to cap at 36 hour resets any time in the foreseeable future. Every mmo has grinds whether it be grinding quests in wow to grinding exp in xi. what I do not understand is why a few people are so resistant to bringing in anything from xi that worked before? If they are to restart over again it could be a year before we have good content, as they will be focused on designing and implementing needed changes to core game play elements. Why fix it if it wasnt broken I can see you obviosly did not enjoy xi but they could bring parts here and fix the problems in weeks by simply reformatting existing code. these do not have to be game breakers, But the game will need to step up to the plate in end game and I can say I doubt it will be by everyone being able to be a special little individual snowflake doing whatever they find to be funnest. It will take organization and certain skill sets to manage end game just like it does in every mmo. I guess i need to broaden my mind somewhat and accept for some poeple its not the journeys end but the journey itself that counts, but i expect we will see the same people that did their own thing to end game angry because the company ls wants xyz and they did lmn because thats what was apealling this is what ffxi failed at in so many peoples eyes, in that you needed to be something special or you hit a wall at end game. But even then people found ways around this. I had a friend named toader that lvled monk, dragoon and thief in under a years time by leading the partys and finding other skill chains to run. I guess end of line question is why so resistant to an fast fix that will help the game and is proven to work?
Thanks aagain for your time,
Big Jer
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#61 Dec 15 2010 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:

What you might be overlooking is that in FFXI, for the longest time the grind was the game. It wasn't until ToAU that SE finally started to get their head out and look around and realize that gating everything and doling it out in little bits and pieces between massive grinds was ridiculous. Sure, by all means, throw in bonuses to make people forget that they're doing the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours before moving on to somewhere else to do the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours (only different mobs and different zones!). That was the game.

As far as I´m concerned, ToAU marked the the beginning of the end for FFXI. It was the sellout expansion where players were given inflated exp and easy mode missions at the cost of the integrity of the game. Sure, killing those colibri for great exp was nice at first but then you realized they just made huge chunks of the game, and even gameplay mechanics, obsolete in one stroke. Leveling PLD in Utsusemi land was pretty much the worst, though some other jobs (BLM) got shafted even more.

Quote:

Now we're into second (third?) generation MMOs with well over a decade of watching the genre evolve. If SE were to implement SP chains, that would suggest very strongly to me that they never feel they're going to have enough real content to keep people interested. When I first read about levequests I was picturing things in line with what other MMOs do where certain levequests unlock certain related levequests and it becomes more a journey than a grind. We see just the tiniest bit of that concept in faction leves now where you do the ones available to you for a particular rank and then you show up at the next reset and there are three more new ones. And the connection between the ones you already did and the new ones in tenuous at best.

What is this mythical real content? Do you mean an endless stream of story missions? That would not be feasible. Perhaps you mean quests or instance runs? How is that not just as much of a grind? Back in WoW I wished I could just skip the trash mobs and get to the bosses because instances were becoming a pointless grind. Levequests are also a huge grind and a lot less enjoyable than your average 6-man pre-TP burn party in FFXI. I think FFXI made a pretty decent job at keeping the game fresh by letting the player access new areas, camps, abilities and gear as they leveled up. It's unlike FFXIV where you basically level from R1 to 50 in the same three zones and most abilities you get are completely pointless or marginal upgrades at best. Even the gear is pretty much just several tiers of the same item. You go from Bronze Haubergeon to Ripped Haubergeon to Iron Haubergeon and so on and they all look almost the same.

Also, one problem with spamming the game with lots of different things to do is it splits up the population so much it becomes difficult to gather a group for any one activity. Many different activities require a large playerbase to support them.

RufuSwho wrote:

Are you advocating that FFXIV not reward varying degrees of performance with varying degrees of reward? Please elaborate a bit if you have time. I don't know that answer to this myself and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

FFXIV doesn't really reward you for playing exceptionally well. Either you beat a leve or you don't and beating them doesn't require a whole lot unless you're very underleveled for the area. Speeding through combat gives relatively small benefits, especially if you're bottle necked by the number of leves available.


Edited, Dec 15th 2010 4:02pm by Omena

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 4:18pm by Omena
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#62 Dec 15 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:

As far as I´m concerned, ToAU marked the the beginning of the end for FFXI. It was the sellout expansion where players were given inflated exp and easy mode missions at the cost of the integrity of the game. Sure, killing those colibri for great exp was nice at first but then you realized they just made huge chunks of the game, and even gameplay mechanics, obsolete in one stroke. Leveling PLD in Utsusemi land was pretty much the worst, though some other jobs (BLM) got shafted even more.


I'm not talking at all about challenge. I'm talking about ready access to diverse content.

Quote:
What is this mythical real content? Do you mean an endless stream of story missions? That would not be feasible. Perhaps you mean quests or instance runs? How is that not just as much of a grind? Back in WoW I wished I could just skip the trash mobs and get to the bosses because instances were becoming a pointless grind. Levequests are also a huge grind and a lot less enjoyable than your average 6-man pre-TP burn party in FFXI. I think FFXI made a pretty decent job at keeping the game fresh by letting the player access new areas, camps, abilities and gear as they leveled up. It's unlike FFXIV where you basically level from R1 to 50 in the same three zones and most abilities you get are completely pointless or marginal upgrades at best. Even the gear is pretty much just several tiers of the same item. You go from Bronze Haubergeon to Ripped Haubergeon to Iron Haubergeon and so on and they all look almost the same.

Also, one problem with spamming the game with lots of different things to do is it splits up the population so much it becomes difficult to gather a group for any one activity. Many different activities require a large playerbase to support them.


Gee, let's compare.

Tiny bit of content with 800 people logged in.

or

Abundant content with 3000 people logged in.

FFXIV right now is leves and grinding. That's it. I'd think that if they could expand the appeal of the game they could afford to "split" the population. What I do is none of your business. If I'm entertained over here doing this and you're entertained over there doing something different, we're both entertained. If I'm not even logged in because I'm tired of the same ol' same ol' and you're over there doing that, you're entertained and you've got just as many people to be entertained with. I'd rather see SE gild the lily (expand on the scope of content) than try to polish the **** (make the existing, severely limited game more rewarding).
#63 Dec 15 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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aurelias,
You are deffinitely one of the most epic posters on the ffxiv boards I would like to know why you dont have your signature genator linked? You have alot of imput to add let us see where you are generating it from? I mean are you rank 50 or just flying off the top with ideas?
thanks,
Big Jer
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#64 Dec 15 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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unclejer wrote:
aurelias,
You are deffinitely one of the most epic posters on the ffxiv boards I would like to know why you dont have your signature genator linked? You have alot of imput to add let us see where you are generating it from? I mean are you rank 50 or just flying off the top with ideas?
thanks,
Big Jer


I don't link my signature here because I don't like to have a connection between ZAM and the game. When I'm in the game, I prefer to be recognized for what I do in the game and not what I say on ZAM. FFXIV rank is irrelevant to this discussion, since the things you do at rank 10 are the exact same things you're doing at rank 50 (except now there's NMs! -.-).

Also, I think the signature banners are an epic waste of forum space and have the option to display images turned off because of them. Would be kind of silly to add my own banner to the wall-o-banner mess, wouldn't it?
#65 Dec 15 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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LOL ok I have to give you the point on rank 10 - 50 for sure but it would add some weight to your arguements. For instance you see many people praising the new sp system but those posters are either A. soloers or B. under level 20. In that particular case their opinion may matter but they are not really exposed to the situation to voice an opinion on it at the later levels.
I guess I just do not understand why the resistance to anything ffxi? The dev team could very well be looking at say a wow type system where there is nice "epic gear" to be had for soloers while engaging in raid style content gives the biggest and best the game has to offer. This is a solid middle ground approach that wouldkeep casual and die hard happy. If you haVE checked on my prior postings you will know this is the very first mmo that I could get my wife playing and she LOVES it. I do not want to punish the solo players in any means only bring the means to party effectively over so that i can enjoy the game just as much. they can easily implement the ffxi style exp gain system in partys over say 5 or 6 only and leave solo / duo alone.
thanks again,
Big Jer
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#66 Dec 15 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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RufuSwho wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
It's not really that the game makes players elitists, so much as the game has been designed in such a way that players end up becoming elitists.

The game has such a massive discrepancy between "doing it in the most optimal manner" versus being a unique and special snowflake, that the better players simply don't want to do anything sub-optimally.


"Better players" is pretty subjective. To me a "better player" can accept party members that are not optimal and still have a good time.

Are you advocating that FFXIV not reward varying degrees of performance with varying degrees of reward? Please elaborate a bit if you have time. I don't know that answer to this myself and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

It's a balance between rewarding the optimal with a bonus and it's polar opposite - you play you win! As many have noted, you just can't have both.

I think we've wandered into the age old topic of the casual and hardcore gamers, one that will live on for as long as multiplayer games are played.

BTW, Merry Christmas Mik!


It would be one thing if the difference between the high end players and the average players was semi significant, but negligible. Let's say a difference of 9k xp/hr vs 10k xp/hr. This doesn't breed as much necessity for having the best of the best because the difference is minor. More realistically, the difference between a party of average playerss vs a party of high ends is something closer to half the performance or less. Where a party of average players in average gear would make average xp, a party of good players in good gear make great xp. And a party of great players in great gear make awesome xp.

I'm not saying that reward shouldn't scale with performance; it should. I'm saying that reward scales with performance on a pretty steep scale in FFXI. Too steep for some. The difference between inviting a WAR/WHM vs a WAR/SAM for ONE spot in your party could very well mean the difference between 8k/hr vs 14-15k/hr because if it's taking you 40 seconds to kill a mob due to their lower damage and you need 30 to make the chain, you're going to keep losing chains. If you can't kill fast enough to maintain a CONSTANT chain, you're losing out on massive amounts of xp because the chain bonus keeps resetting to chain 0. A party that can only get to chain 3 and keep resetting vs a party that will get to 5+ and maintain the chain will have a HUGE discrepancy in XP over time.

That's a fundamental flaw with XI; if even one single member of your party is not performing sufficiently, the other five will have to perform more work to carry them, or the entire party will suffer. If they can't put out enough killing over time to compensate for the weak link, the group will struggle.

I've seen more than my share of parties that had one member leave and get replaced by someone else, and seen the xp/hr jump or fall by 2-3k/hr, sometimes as much as 4-5k/hr. I've had groups where we were getting chain 50, 60, 70+ without much trouble; one person leaves and is replaced and all of the sudden we can't get past 5 or 6. I've had groups in middle levels where we're stuck on chain 3 and one person leaves, is replaced, and chain 5 every time.

That's exactly the problem: When one person can make that big of a difference in the overall party's xp, many players do not want to fill any of the party spots with anything that would be less than optimal. It's not fair, but it's because the game's mechanics practically force you to do so.

I'll close with an overload of math.

Let's say we have seven parties. Party A can not chain. Party B only gets chain 1 (so chain 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 1...). Party C only gets chain 2 (0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2...). D gets chain 3, E gets 4, F gets chain 5 and resets, G gets chain 5 and keeps going infinitely.

Let's assume they get a base XP of 100 XP/kill, to make the math easier.

Let's assume they kill exactly 100 mobs.

Party A's total XP is 100 x 100, or 10,000.
Party B's total XP is (100 + 120) x 50, or 11,000.
Party C's total XP is (100 + 120 + 125) x 33 + 100, or 11,485
Party D's total XP is (100 + 120 + 125 + 130) x 25, or 11,875
Party E's total XP is (100 + 120 + 125 + 130 + 140) x 20, or 12,300
Party F's total XP is (100 + 120 + 125 + 130 + 140 + 150) x 16 + (100 + 120 + 125 + 130), or 12,715

Seems pretty gradual, right? Watch:

Party G's total XP is (100 + 120 + 125 + 130 + 140) + (150 x 95), or 29,465.

The difference between a party that can only get chain 5 vs a party that can chain infinitely is OVER DOUBLE. The difference between killing a mob in 61 seconds vs killing a mob in 59 seconds is MASSIVE.

-That's- what I mean about the game turning players into elitists. When the difference between "good party" and "great party" is THAT SEVERE, it all but forces you to be critical of other people who aren't pulling their weight.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being an XP **** and attacking the notion of "having fun in a party, even if it isn't the best XP". I've done so myself and would do it again under the right circumstances. I'm just saying that when you want to hunker down and get XP, there is a huge discrepancy between the amount you can get based on your performance. And that -is- at least partially the game's fault.

I'm not saying I don't like XP chains, but I am saying that if there were no XP chains, people would be a lot less critical of other people not performing as well, because it wouldn't have as large an effect.

EDIT: And Merry Christmas :)

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 6:01pm by Mikhalia
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#67 Dec 15 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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rufus,
I understand exactly what your point is, but, why would a game reward people who do not strive to optimize their class. I mean in the end mmos are not the place for "snowflakes" no matter what system you use there will always be cookie cutter or optimal builds, simply because these games are about optimizing gear char abilities etc. This game comes the closest I have seen to allowing the "snowflake" concept in a solo environment, but, when it comes time to kill the big land kings no will be inviting that war/whm because guess what war/thf can do more damage and help the tanks hold better hate or war/sam can skill chain with 2 other people. Many people point to jobs like monk and dragoon that were rediculously hard to lvl in ffxi, well guess what thats was SE'S fault they took the ability for those jobs to open or close good skill chains or wit the case of dragoons put that amazingly annoying wyvern flying over everyones head and blocking your view. I guess my ultimate point is this, no matter what combat system is devised and implemented there will always be min/maxers. Its the nature of the majority of mmo players I have met to try and be the best at everything we strive to do.
thanks for your time,
Big Jer

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 6:47pm by unclejer
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#68 Dec 15 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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unclejer wrote:
rufus,
I understand exactly what your point is, but, why would a game reward people who do not strive to optimize their class. I mean in the end mmos are not the place for "snowflakes" no matter what system you use there will always be cookie cutter or optimal builds, simply because these games are about optimizing gear char abilities etc. This game comes the closest I have seen to allowing the "snowflake" concept in a solo environment, but, when it comes time to kill the big land kings no will be inviting that war/whm because guess what war/thf can do more damage and help the tanks hold better hate or war/sam can skill chain with 2 other people. Many people point to jobs like monk and dragoon that were rediculously hard to lvl in ffxi, well guess what thats was SE'S fault they took the ability for those jobs to open or close good skill chains or wit the case of dragoons put that amazingly annoying wyvern flying over everyones head and blocking your view. I guess my ultimate point is this, no matter what combat system is devised and implemented there will always be min/maxers. Its the nature of the majority of mmo players I have met to try and be the best at everything we strive to do.
thanks for your time,
Big Jer


To take down "HNM" level content, sure, I can see how MMOs should require a certain amount of mix/maxing. But to simply level? No, you shouldn't be required to conform to the current cookie cutter build in order to level up. FFXI took efficiency bonuses too far. As many have pointed out, one person performing sub-par hurt the entire party a significant amount. But I do agree that skill should be rewarded. FFXIV needs to find a happy medium.
#69 Dec 15 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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OK but question regardless of chains 1 person not performing to optimal will still hurt exp. Simple math says over the course of a 3 hour party killing each mob even 10 seconds slower = zomg less exp. That with 0 bonus reality is mediocre players will suffer mediocre gains there is no way around it. That being said we are all on even footing here no one has ridil and kraken club drks to face roll exp for us, and the people that dont want to conform to the min/max can solo decently here. SO isnt there really already a good alternative in place to those not wanting be pigeon holed?
thanks,
Big Jer
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#70 Dec 15 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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unclejer wrote:
OK but question regardless of chains 1 person not performing to optimal will still hurt exp. Simple math says over the course of a 3 hour party killing each mob even 10 seconds slower = zomg less exp. That with 0 bonus reality is mediocre players will suffer mediocre gains there is no way around it. That being said we are all on even footing here no one has ridil and kraken club drks to face roll exp for us, and the people that dont want to conform to the min/max can solo decently here. SO isnt there really already a good alternative in place to those not wanting be pigeon holed?
thanks,
Big Jer


First of all, the original SP system had the potential to give each party member different amount of SP based on their individual skill. If done correctly skilled players wouldn't be penalized for an unskilled party member. SE screwed it up and instead of fixing it they reverted back to the FFXI way of obtaining exp, so now they're stuck with the same problem FFXI had that they never solved.

Soloing is not an alternative later in the game. Besides, what fun is soloing in an MMO?

#71 Dec 15 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
unclejer wrote:
OK but question regardless of chains 1 person not performing to optimal will still hurt exp. Simple math says over the course of a 3 hour party killing each mob even 10 seconds slower = zomg less exp. That with 0 bonus reality is mediocre players will suffer mediocre gains there is no way around it. That being said we are all on even footing here no one has ridil and kraken club drks to face roll exp for us, and the people that dont want to conform to the min/max can solo decently here. SO isnt there really already a good alternative in place to those not wanting be pigeon holed?
thanks,
Big Jer


First of all, the original SP system had the potential to give each party member different amount of SP based on their individual skill. If done correctly skilled players wouldn't be penalized for an unskilled party member. SE screwed it up and instead of fixing it they reverted back to the FFXI way of obtaining exp, so now they're stuck with the same problem FFXI had that they never solved.

Soloing is not an alternative later in the game. Besides, what fun is soloing in an MMO?


The problem with the old system is that unless you were taking down mobs that actually required a party, partying was a waste because you were only hurting SP gain per mob, which meant that people soloed in order to maximize their SP gain. So long as they leave out XP chains, I think the current system should be fine. Min-maxers will always exist in any game, but so long as the difference between the min-maxers and the players who are just "above average" isn't too substantial to be game breaking (e.g. more than twice the XP, as I showed in my last post), there won't be as much pressure to only invite the best DDs with the best gear.

I mean, I can be a pretty hardcore elitist when it comes to gear and people making terrible choices. I've argued at length against SAMs in AF body and MNKs in AF legs and BRDs showing up half naked to groups and ****... I've chewed out my fair share of WARs wielding polearms because "I want to be a DRG!" or BLMs meleeing when they're out of MP instead of resting or RDMs who nuke/enfeeble/heal/rest in full melee attire... Been there, done that.

But as someone who is known to be an elitist sometimes, I'd really really love it if the game didn't force people to "go big or go home". I'd hate to see every class boiled down to "The best build" and everything else is scorned.

Back in FFXI, I would have loved to give SMN/BLM nukers or melee CORs or MNK tanks a try in an XP setting, but the game was inherently designed in such a way that merely attempting such things was not even worth it.

I would hate to see XIV go down that route.
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#72 Dec 16 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Default
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Hydragyrum wrote:

First of all, the original SP system had the potential to give each party member different amount of SP based on their individual skill. If done correctly skilled players wouldn't be penalized for an unskilled party member. SE screwed it up and instead of fixing it they reverted back to the FFXI way of obtaining exp, so now they're stuck with the same problem FFXI had that they never solved.

Soloing is not an alternative later in the game. Besides, what fun is soloing in an MMO?


What? No! The original SP system was bad precisely because it was impossible to fix. Impossible! Unless there was an actual human being watching the fight and parsing data for every group it would be impossible to have it distribute SP fairly. We were rewarded for doing the dumbest things under the old system because the game obviously can't distinguish between a necessary heal and artificial one nor a useful debuff and one only used to gain additional SP procs.

The current system is fundamentally sound but the specifics aren't good. The SP contained by mobs changes way too little as they go up/down in levels, yet the damage bonus/penalty is huge, which rewards killing the weakest little turds you can possibly get your hands on. If a mob 15+ levels above you gave 600 base SP, like in FFXI, instead of 220 or so, we'd be a lot closer to what's needed to make the game work for parties.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:35pm by Omena
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#73 Dec 17 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thanks for the responses Mik and Aurelius.

I think you've sold me. Mik, I have seen the math that you detailed out myself, in action. I've also seen the EXP/hr change drastically due to one replacement member.

In the end, I have to agree that I would perfer that not be the case. That a party not be penalized by inviting a player with an original build, or a casual player, or a player with mid-grade equipment.

Killing more mobs faster is a good goal for a party, but the EXP chain system makes the difference TOO much. Thanks again for the detailed explination. The numbers really helped me grasp the concept.


#74 Dec 17 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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I think some of the problem is, SE tried to hard to find a "middle ground" between "This is a 'NEW' Final Fantasy MMO" and "This is FFXI-2".

As this entire thread is demonstrating, some people wanted and expected FFXIV to be 'FFXI-2' while others wanted something new and different.

It seems like SE couldn't decide either when they developed this game and so, thought they could turn the most profit/subscribers if they went somewhere "in-between".

I think this SE's biggest mistake. And it seems like the deciding factor for them was "well, we can transition out the old game in a couple years once everyone moves to this 'semi upgraded FFXI-2 if we keep alot of the same elements."

It feels like a very wishy washy decision, since FFXIV is trying so hard to cater to FFXI, AND new people 'specifically' (which is not very specific at all).
Just the fact that we have the exact same races with different names is the biggest cop out to me.

Because they did this, people who wanted FFXI-2 are disappointed, because its too different from that formula, and people who wanted something different are disappointed because its too the same. And all of this is exasperated by a crappy UI, which should have been what SE focused -THE MOST- on instead of making sure it looked just enough like FFXI, but prettier.


SE would have been wiser to keep the two games separate and unique, and let FFXIV be its own game from the get go.
That way if SE wanted to interject some FFXI nostalgia, it would be appreciated as nostalgia.

As far as all the Final Fantasy titles go... what makes them all so special is how 'different' they all are from each other, while putting a new spin on old elements.
FFXIV is trying so hard to put 'the same spin' on 'the same elements'... in HD!
#75 Dec 17 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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RufuSwho wrote:
Thanks for the responses Mik and Aurelius.

I think you've sold me. Mik, I have seen the math that you detailed out myself, in action. I've also seen the EXP/hr change drastically due to one replacement member.

In the end, I have to agree that I would perfer that not be the case. That a party not be penalized by inviting a player with an original build, or a casual player, or a player with mid-grade equipment.

Killing more mobs faster is a good goal for a party, but the EXP chain system makes the difference TOO much. Thanks again for the detailed explination. The numbers really helped me grasp the concept.


What can I say? I loves me some maths.

DreamerGuy wrote:
I think some of the problem is, SE tried to hard to find a "middle ground" between "This is a 'NEW' Final Fantasy MMO" and "This is FFXI-2".

As this entire thread is demonstrating, some people wanted and expected FFXIV to be 'FFXI-2' while others wanted something new and different.

It seems like SE couldn't decide either when they developed this game and so, thought they could turn the most profit/subscribers if they went somewhere "in-between".

I think this SE's biggest mistake. And it seems like the deciding factor for them was "well, we can transition out the old game in a couple years once everyone moves to this 'semi upgraded FFXI-2 if we keep alot of the same elements."

It feels like a very wishy washy decision, since FFXIV is trying so hard to cater to FFXI, AND new people 'specifically' (which is not very specific at all).
Just the fact that we have the exact same races with different names is the biggest cop out to me.

Because they did this, people who wanted FFXI-2 are disappointed, because its too different from that formula, and people who wanted something different are disappointed because its too the same. And all of this is exasperated by a crappy UI, which should have been what SE focused -THE MOST- on instead of making sure it looked just enough like FFXI, but prettier.


SE would have been wiser to keep the two games separate and unique, and let FFXIV be its own game from the get go.
That way if SE wanted to interject some FFXI nostalgia, it would be appreciated as nostalgia.

As far as all the Final Fantasy titles go... what makes them all so special is how 'different' they all are from each other, while putting a new spin on old elements.
FFXIV is trying so hard to put 'the same spin' on 'the same elements'... in HD!


I think that if they had not tried to include the "familiar elements" like the FFXI races and if they had left it "Project Rapture" instead of "Final Fantasy XIV", the game would have been more successful. Honestly, I think that by slapping the Final Fantasy name on it, they're trying to make the game something specific, and in the end they're limiting what they can do with it because of the name.

Don't get me wrong, I have been a fan of the Final Fantasy franchise for a long time, but I think that at this point in time, a lot of people have come to develop expectations of games with the Final Fantasy title attached to it, and the only thing that every Final Fantasy fan can agree on when it comes to what a Final Fantasy game should be is that none of them can agree on anything.

After the FF6/7 era, every numbered FF game since has been broken down to "people who love it" and "people who hate it". 8, 9, and 10 were the start, but 11, 12, 13, and 14 are coming up with much bigger divides between the players who got what they wanted out of the game and ones who didn't.

I think Square Enix's best move is to release Final Fantasy 15 a single player game in a medieval/magical setting, like the FF 1-6 roots, and then retire the franchise with FF15 being the FINAL Final Fantasy game. It pains me to say that about a franchise I've come to love, but the fact is, I really think that with each new game, especially with the last four games, SE is releasing games that are making exponentially more people less and less happy.

Many people were unhappy with FFXI for the sheer fact that was an MMORPG.
Many people were unhappy with FF12 and thought it was terrible.
Many more people were unhappy with FF13 and thought it was terrible.
FF14 has probably left a higher percentage of players feeling let down from their expectations than any previous title.

I'm not saying that 11 or 14 should be shut down or abandoned; I think 14 still has hope and 11 still has a loyal fanbase as well.

I'm just saying that I think it's time for SE to realize they can't keep trying to come up with a new game when they have a rabid playerbase with certain expectations of that game. Look at The Spirits Within; that movie didn't bomb because it was inherently a bad movie, it bombed because people EXPECTED "A Final Fantasy Movie" and they didn't feel like they got what they expected. By any other name, that movie would have been a success.

Their best bet is to start developing new titles and new franchises. Once you take off the franchise tag, you remove the expectations that the game "has to live up to" that players are enforcing on it before it hits the drawing board.
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#76 Dec 17 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Speeral wrote:

See I have no problems with an EXP chain system, that was always fun. I wouldn't say its elitist at all, it makes grinding more fun and challenges you to do better in a party environment. Yes I've had good pugs, bad pugs, friend exp pt's, and ls exp pt's in XI. Its a portion of the content but it was fun when things went well, and every chain reset we tried harder to beat our last chain.

Its not the system it was some of the players who we exp chains ****'s, no chain 100 ***** you! i'm out, type of mentality. That's a party to party problem not a weakness of the way the exp system was designed. I wouldn't mind seeing something like that back, i would welcome it.


What you might be overlooking is that in FFXI, for the longest time the grind was the game. It wasn't until ToAU that SE finally started to get their head out and look around and realize that gating everything and doling it out in little bits and pieces between massive grinds was ridiculous. Sure, by all means, throw in bonuses to make people forget that they're doing the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours before moving on to somewhere else to do the exact same thing over and over again for hours upon hours (only different mobs and different zones!). That was the game.

Now we're into second (third?) generation MMOs with well over a decade of watching the genre evolve. If SE were to implement SP chains, that would suggest very strongly to me that they never feel they're going to have enough real content to keep people interested. When I first read about levequests I was picturing things in line with what other MMOs do where certain levequests unlock certain related levequests and it becomes more a journey than a grind. We see just the tiniest bit of that concept in faction leves now where you do the ones available to you for a particular rank and then you show up at the next reset and there are three more new ones. And the connection between the ones you already did and the new ones in tenuous at best.

In other games, when I'm involved in group content while leveling up I'm not looking at my xp bar. I'm involved in the content. I'm having fun (unless the group is full of drooling yokels, but that's beside the point). And then when it's over and I look at my xp bar, there's all this xp I didn't have at the start. I didn't need bonus this or increased that or any of that crap because I was enjoying the process of playing the game. When the best the devs have to offer is bonuses to SP because there's @#%^ all else to do, they've missed the boat.

SE says the recognize that a significant shortcoming in the game right now is a lack of content and I'm counting on them to follow through on providing that content in abundance and in relatively short order because MMOs built around monotonous grinds went out of style years ago.



I see what you're saying and I agree. I was hoping the leve system would be more intuitive and grow as you did as a character. I feel SE didn't have time to tier their leve's to allow players to get new ones once they've finished the ones they originally had.

When in good exp parties I never ever looked at the bar, we exp'd for fun or merits. No one in our party ever looked at the exp/hour aside from the 50-60 levels those were brutal. I am hoping that as SE grows and evolves the game more variety will be made present.
#77 Jan 09 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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There is nothing in FFXIV that comes close to the enjoyment of pulling hate off the healer after a benediction and the party shock after Provoke>2 Gax crits(double attack)Sneak attack>Weaponskill>2 gax crits
#78 Jan 09 2011 at 8:35 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with Rufus and others who think combat/sp need the most overhaul. It needs to be exciting, I think they tried to do that with regimes ... not a bad idea having team coordinating moves, been done before with magic and TP moves in other games, but what they have in place is kinda meh.

There aren't any moves that really feel like they knit together either. (shy of some self buffs, it I don't count those) That should be a strength within some jobs.

SP could have been tweaked to stay more true to the Tactics (and other Square games) type job leveling. The job system is similar too. There's isn't "mastering" a class yet, but we have the potential of combining way more cross-class skills in.

SE shouldn't be scared to borrow a few things that really work, from their XI experience, or any other popular MMO. No point in reinventing the wheel ... just modify the existing one to your liking.
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#79 Jan 09 2011 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
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Grinding - Grinding
Levequests - Fields of Valor
Hamlet Defense - Campaign/Besieged
NMs - NMs
Levequest NMs - BCNMs
Job quests - AF Quests (sadly lacking the armor reward)
Story Quests - Story Missions

How is FFXIV not already like a FFXI-2? Why not just bring over new versions of the rest of the stuff we enjoyed in 11? It's not like it'll be exactly the same. They'll be in new areas, with different aspects, with different story elements behind them.

Really.. I enjoy Final Fantasy games because of the story and the world lore. I can see that where the story and lore can lead to, but theres no way to access it yet. Those things (for the most part) were fun in XI, why wouldn't a reworked version of them work here? If you don't want to do them, go do whatever you DO want to do. If it gets me more into the amazing world I'm running around in, I'm all for it.
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#80 Jan 10 2011 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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AshlarThePaladin wrote:
Grinding - Grinding
Story Quests - Story Missions

It's these two:

1) Grinding in FFXI was actually enjoyable and a team effort.

2) The story missions actually had challenge. The first missions involving any killing in XIV have mobs that die in one hit regardless of your class and rank. Sure, they're supposed to be easy as they may even be your first fights where you know the controls, but one hit, really? Did they really worry that someone may not be able to defeat marmots with, say, 50 HP? In XI the first mission to require team effort was the abyssal dragon at the end of the R3 mission and it was capped at L25, I believe. That fight impressed the crap out of me back then but we have nothing like it in FFXIV. I guess SE thinks kids these days are so spoiled they can't handle anything more complicated than killing coblyns by repeatedly tapping the 1-key.

Also, I can't speak for levequest NMs as the ones I have access to aren't worth doing and the ones that are, are for R50s, but BCNMs were really tough. IIRC the lowest level BCNMS were capped at L20 and they kicked some serious ***. You couldn't just waltz in there with any group, let alone alone, and expect a W.


Edited, Jan 10th 2011 7:50am by Omena
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#81 Jan 10 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Somebody wrote this on core, and it needs to be said here too.

[quote]This is why gamers should be completely ignored by the development process and only used to test the stability of the online environment (stability covers all aspects from server stability to quest mechanics and combat balance). Gamers draw on the games they played and the experiences they enjoyed from those other games and ignore the context. There is absolutely no regard for causality.

All of you need to think about why warm feels good when you are cold and cold feels good when you are warm and apply that to your thinking here. In order for any experience in a virtual environment to suspend disbelief you must surround it with polar experiences. (Not like polar ice caps but opposite experiences) This allows the positive to stand out from the negative in a synergistic way that is impossible without the contrast.

If anyone made the game you are all asking for you would all hate it. Even though it was exactly what you are asking for and think you want now, you would end up hating it. If you think about causality for a while you will understand what I mean and you can apply this concept to future thinking.


I agree, but not many other people will. In the same way that someone form a 3rd world country would appreciate a 30yr old single-wide with utilities... its all a matter of perspective. That said, you can't just purposely make the base gameplay ****** so that people really enjoy the few ********** aspects of it. I know thats an oversimplification, but not by much.

The fans have valid requests in some areas - in others they don't. An example of a bad idea is probably the concept of being able to equip gear at any level. Coming form ffxi most fans would probably welcome the idea of not having to wait to equip the cool gear. However, upon implementation we all realize the gear was only cool because we had to wait for it.

On the other hand, the ability to search for players by name (or partial name) and pull up a list showing if they are online, what zone they are in, what job they are currently on and if they are in a party.... well, that was a good feature. One that wasn't enjoyed due to some offsetting polar experience. It is a feature we need back in ffxiv. Now if they added a quest in order to use the feature they might be on to something - as long as it was relatviely easy...


#82 Jan 10 2011 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
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A director/producer who hasn't even played FFXI to backtrack the game there? lol.

Quote:
The fans have valid requests in some areas - in others they don't.


Implementing a "new" old feature is different kind of request than implementing an old feature differently than before.
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