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Armoury System: Thoughts?Follow

#1 Dec 14 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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One of the things I like about Final Fantasy XIV is the Armoury System. I like how we're really not fixed into defined roles, and how we can mix and match abilities we've learned from different classes to come up with interesting combinations with our characters.

However, I've been seeing a lot of talk on these boards about molding FFXIV to be more like FFXI (in terms of game mechanics and playability), some people would go so far to say they expected an overhauled FFXI. But what's the general consensus on the forum about the Armoury System? Do you guys like it or hate it? Any wish for improvements or changes?

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 11:07am by UltKnightGrover
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#2Hyanmen, Posted: Dec 14 2010 at 1:10 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ohmygodtraditionalffnames fftacticsjobsystemismuchbetter pleasekeeptheff-feeling sakaguchisquaresoftff7remake goodoldtimeswhatisyourfavoriteffmineisff7becausecloudisawesome
#3 Dec 14 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe I should have been more clear. What do you guys think about the system in itself? The class names exist because roles in XIV aren't as rigidly defined as they are in other FF titles that have no freedom in terms of what you can learn and use. (FFI, III, V, IX, XI, etc)
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#4 Dec 14 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like the idea, but i'll go ahead and point out many of the basic gripes people have with it.

-There are few restrictions on class skills; Basically, in the end, we're all gonna be hybradized versions of each other who have gone and gathered the best skills from each class. This will result in 3 "jobs": Tank, Healer, and DD.

-Customization sucks; Ok, other than choosing skills from other classes (which leads to the aforementioned problem) there is no customization within the job itself. I would like to see some sort of specialization system in place to further improve and diversify each class.

-The classes are basically rehashed versions of one another. Different names, different icons, same skills.

I like the idea, but as with many, many things in this game, it needs some serious fixing to achieve its potential.
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#5 Dec 14 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I like it as you keep one character pretty much forever. There is no need for "alts" meaning you and your character can grow together indefinitely.

However, as it stands the jobs seem too undefined. And it's here where I'd like to see a break from FFXI. I'd like to see the mechanics of each class differ with a defining ability; or a different UI. Or even different weapons adding or subtracting from stamina.

For instance Marauders should swing very slow but hard; their stamina should regenerate slower and it should take a lot of stamina for each ability.

Though I liked FFXI in how you were able to use different weapons on your main class without changing into it. Now for the most part no one really used different weapons from those that were A rated, but it was fun to run around with elemental staves as a Ninja.

Same goes for the armor. SE needs to highlight the pluses and negatives better in game about wearing gear designed for your level. They need to grant better incentives to wear "proper" gear. On the whole, leveling up means you can get to wear that next piece of cool gear. Getting it 10 levels early just spoils it, especially when you can't see the negative aspects of the stats in game.

I do like these sorts of things in theory; I like that SE is doing something new and taking chances, but if they are implemented half-heartedly or just flat out wrong then they need to go back to the drawing board or use a system that works.


#6 Dec 14 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the freedom and flexibility but I still think for the sake of party play the classes need to have SOME definition.
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#7 Dec 14 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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it seemed like a great idea at first. Rather than just taking a subjob, you could have in theory done something along the lines of being a dark knight with access to berserk and sneak attack, rather than just choosing. What it ended up being was classes are so bland that while I could use off class abilities, I rarely feel the need to. I usually equip Cure (or something to use otherwise useless MP), then second wind. Thats about all I have thats worth it outside of my regular class, I assume I'll be using Feint on everything too when I get it.

Casters use a little more customization, but then its still just 2 classes and you pick the best from each.
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#8 Dec 14 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Casters use a little more customization, but then its still just 2 classes and you pick the best from each.


I play a thaumaturge, cause i like the aoe better, and it has more skills that are useful (so less penalties). I know very few players though, who don't always have at least either cure or sacrifice equipped. Me and a conjurer friend seem basically just like one another. I cast sacrifice, he casts cure. I cast Scourge 2 (accompanied by Bio), He casts Thunder 2 (accompanied by Shock). It's like we're the same person with different skins. Not to mention, we both have Siphon MP, Stoneskin, Punishing Barbs, Protect, Shell, etc...
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#9 Dec 14 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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I've always preferred the ones where you can define them as you want them and less rigid. what i mean is like FF6, any character could equip any esper and learn any spell. FF7 any character could have any materia. I didnt like others where it wasn't so flexible.
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#10 Dec 14 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Metin wrote:
I've always preferred the ones where you can define them as you want them and less rigid. what i mean is like FF6, any character could equip any esper and learn any spell. FF7 any character could have any materia. I didnt like others where it wasn't so flexible.


See I agree, I've like doing that too, and thats what this system was supposed to promote. whats happened though is a lack of definition. What I don't want now, is everyone who has everything at capped rank, using the same set of 6-10 abilities, and then only using 4-5 from their own class.

What I would like is for characters to have basically 2 sets of skills, one they can share and one they cannot. On the one list, classes will have strong definition, Think Glad defense, Pug evasion, marauder standing still, lancer buffs/debuffs etc. On the other list would be a wider variety of abilities that are appealing to your own class, but also other classes. Some of the second list abilities may even be better for another class than it is for your own.

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#11 Dec 14 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Metin wrote:
I've always preferred the ones where you can define them as you want them and less rigid. what i mean is like FF6, any character could equip any esper and learn any spell. FF7 any character could have any materia. I didnt like others where it wasn't so flexible.


See I agree, I've like doing that too, and thats what this system was supposed to promote. whats happened though is a lack of definition. What I don't want now, is everyone who has everything at capped rank, using the same set of 6-10 abilities, and then only using 4-5 from their own class.

What I would like is for characters to have basically 2 sets of skills, one they can share and one they cannot. On the one list, classes will have strong definition, Think Glad defense, Pug evasion, marauder standing still, lancer buffs/debuffs etc. On the other list would be a wider variety of abilities that are appealing to your own class, but also other classes. Some of the second list abilities may even be better for another class than it is for your own.



This is already somewhat in place. For instance (from the view of a thaumaturge), some spells are usable by all DoW/DoM. Some spells are usable only by DoM i believe, and a select few are only usable by Thaumaturge (Exaltation is the only one i know of right now). What i feel they need to do, is make the classes more restrictive. Maybe only allowing you to steal base features from a select few other classes. Right now, its just too easy for everyone to have the same skillset, even though one person's class title may be Pugilist, while another person's is Marauder. I don't want to get to R50 and everyone do the exact same things.
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#12 Dec 14 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think that most of the skills should remain usable by most classes, but certain skills should have a much larger penalty for using them on a different job. For instance, Protect and Shell. Granted, I love them for soloing on my glad. But when I literally see EVERY character I come across using them because there is no real penalty to do so, it gets a bit old. I agree that I don't want everyone to just fall into a cookie cutter mentality. Unfortunately, its extremely hard to avoid that because as soon as people realize that certain skills are better than others, that is just the natural progression.
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#13 Dec 14 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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They need to make stats more interesting. Add more armor, more custimization. I loved the AF system from FFXI but I realize it can be boring when you know that at 50, of X class, you must wear THIS armor.

As for class specialization, more abilities from guild marks, or class-specific traits would help define differents classes better.
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#14 Dec 14 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
I like the idea and flexibility of the system, but to me it seems incomplete. Solid is correct, for the sake of group play some definition is needed. I would have liked to have seen more diversity in the jobs themselves. For example Gladiator would have 2 different paths: Defender and Swordsman. Defender would have all the shield based skills and WS, Swordsman the same for swords. Whenever you reached a rank where you would acquire a skill you would get a choice between one from each path. Once you chose you could not change (unless you did some quest or other FF-like). Most ppl would probably go the path of the Gladiator as it is now, a hybrid, but you would also have ppl that were pure tanks or pure DDs. The two path system would apply to all jobs: Pugs would be either Brawlers or Aestheics (Monks), Archers either Bowmen or Marksmen (Crossbows), Marauders either Axemen or Reavers etc etc. There would still be cookie cutter classes but there would be a bit more room for something unique.
#15 Dec 14 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Aside from a variety of fixes to it (like support for hybrids, which is oddly lacking considering the flexibility of the system) I want a literal armory type function. I.E. I want support for making a variety of setups and switching rapidly between them. I shouldn't have to have pages of macros to do it. I should have a palette of buttons which I can click on causing it to save all of the current traits/spells/abilities/equipment set and swap them out in an instant. Swapping between disciplines and gear takes so much time that when I see a mining point unless I'm already mining, I usually just ignore it. Macros are not really a solution to this for the long term.

#16 Dec 14 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Another route could be Hybrid vs. Pure specializations. At Rank 10 you can choose whether to hybrid your chosen class or go a more 'pure' route.

Hybrid specializations would be allowed to use skills from the opposing discipline and none from classes within their discipline. They would have class specific abilities given to them upon choosing the hybrid path that would lend to that type of role. The same would be true of Pure specializations. Difference being they may only use abilities from classes within their discipline; none from the opposing one...

EX: Gladiator

Rank 10 you can choose Paladin (Hybrid) or Warrior (Pure).

Paladin: Invincible, Flash, Holy, Enlight, etc... as they RankUP! No other class would have access to these skills. They get traits to increase Mag. Def, MP Pool and Shield Block. They can use skills from CON/THM (and whatever other DOM are added) but none from DOW classes.

Warrior: Berserk, Weapon Block, Hilt Smash (Stun?), etc...as they RankUP! No other class would have access to these skills. They get traits for +Dmg, Damage Reduction and Dual Wield (Hello, Weapon Block!). They can use DOW skills (Pure only) and none from DOM.

I think they'd probably need larger gaps in rank to new class specific abilities to make it work. With the ability to use other class skills, you'll never feel like your action bar is bare; save for early levels when you don't have other classes ranked.

This could work for pretty much every class in game now. It still keeps most of the flexibility of the Armoury System, but gives each class more defined roles to work with. It also still allows for solo play as classes can cherry pick abilities that allow them to survive on their own.

I type way too much...

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#17 Dec 14 2010 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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My current new love in the game is my melee THM, hopefully they don't take away that possibility.

Sure, I wish I could make a castery-melee, but I'll take a melee-y mage anytime if that's all they'll let me be.
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#18 Dec 14 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
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Docent42 wrote:
My current new love in the game is my melee THM, hopefully they don't take away that possibility.

Sure, I wish I could make a castery-melee, but I'll take a melee-y mage anytime if that's all they'll let me be.

How is it melee when all your attacks are ranged?
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#19 Dec 15 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
How is it melee when all your attacks are ranged?

Shield Bash, Phalanx, Jarring Strike and Fracture aren't ranged, even as a THM. Feint is, but really short compared to others.

You can't parry or block at range either, so the "spec" only works in melee range, despite spirit dart having long range. That's why I call it a melee THM.

Edited, Dec 15th 2010 1:19am by Docent42
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#20 Dec 15 2010 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
Docent42 wrote:
My current new love in the game is my melee THM, hopefully they don't take away that possibility.

Sure, I wish I could make a castery-melee, but I'll take a melee-y mage anytime if that's all they'll let me be.


I've actually toyed with this sort of 'build' while slow grinding my CON/THM to R16 as they are now - equipped with Shield, melee-casters are quite capable of packing a punch by themselves. Generally, I'd use Protect/Shell/Stygian Spikes + Phalanx/Shield Bash, with Cure + Sacrifice to round off. And I find that it does better than my Gladiator sometimes simply because I have a large MP pool to restore HP off :-)
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#21 Dec 15 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
I think that most of the skills should remain usable by most classes, but certain skills should have a much larger penalty for using them on a different job. For instance, Protect and Shell. Granted, I love them for soloing on my glad. But when I literally see EVERY character I come across using them because there is no real penalty to do so, it gets a bit old. I agree that I don't want everyone to just fall into a cookie cutter mentality. Unfortunately, its extremely hard to avoid that because as soon as people realize that certain skills are better than others, that is just the natural progression.


Ironically, the only way to remove cookie-cutter classes is to make everyone equally good... which runs a huge risk of making everyone too similar... uh-oh.
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#22 Dec 15 2010 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
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I may be the odd one out but I actually like defined roles. People in everyday life define thier roles from doctors ( specialist) to attorneys ( prosecution, defence marriage divorce etc etc)

I also love how 11 did it but i wished for more openess, why cant i be a paladin and sub blm, why cant i be a warrior and not sub nin, same with thf.

Now there is the armoury sytem which would be perfect! except, my mar is a pug with an axe and different skill names, oh and his thing is parry not evasion, the jobs are generic at best, making it even more muddied down once you start mixing the generic jobs together.

I could see how it could work but it doesn't right now unless SE wanted us to be clones of one another.
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#23 Dec 15 2010 at 5:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Give the game some time to grow, and I'm sure SE will give us reasons to focus on a single role rather than going a'la carte with abilities from different jobs. The Subjob system in FFXI was supposed to grant the kind of freedom of character development you see now in FFXIV, but because of the way the game was set up, only a few combinations were seen as viable. A Monk/Blackmage, for example, would never be able to land his spells against an enemy other than a monster so far below his level as to net no experience, and even then he would only have had access to the weakest of spells. Meanwhile, he would lose a great deal of his potential to fulfill his main role in a party if he didn't sub a melee job like Warrior, Samurai or Dragoon. However, over time, SE introduced content that required players to rethink the tried and true strategies. Rank Missions, BCNMs, Expansion missions, etc, all offered challenges that were outside the purview of the normal XP grind.

I'm sure as more content is released, you'll see more call for specialists, while generalists will still make for good solo play.
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