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SE please fix SP gain post level 30Follow

#1 Dec 16 2010 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
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Well as yet more LS and in game friends quit as they cannot face the tedium that is levelling post 35, I have decided to join them

Since SP gain was changed from random to static, and we became rewarded for annihilating really weak irrelevant mobs, I have done nothing but craft and level alt jobs that I have no interest in.

I now cannot face logging in at all. All my alts are in The Mun Tuy Cellars fighting the same mobs, I cannot level Lancer effectively, and I cannot party grind to escape the tedium of soloing.

I hate grinding coblyn and doblyn and find a system thats rewards people for fighting unchallanging mobs pathetic.

We have given them the benefit of the doubt for several months now, when in reality all we have done is waste yet more time.

Peace out peeps, I really hope this game does become good.

Personally, I am tired of waiting. Sure we have NMs now, but if you cant level to get to them then WTF is the point

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:14am by MisterGaribaldi
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#2 Dec 16 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
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Feedback forum is two doors down. I'm not giving you grief for posting here, but I still cling to the naive hope that at some point you folks are going to realize that we have a specific forum that exists entirely for the purpose of voicing feedback directly to SE that liaisons read on a fairly regular basis to gather our feedback as posters on one of the North American premier sites. Posting here with requests for changes is bloody futile. Put your feedback where it belongs so it has a chance to help instead of being just another "I quit" thread.

I agree with the concerns over SP rank 20+. (It is 20, btw, not 30). But if you're going to try and help (and not just kvetch), your thread should have gone here.
#3 Dec 16 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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I like the grind, and I'm starting to become happier with the game with each passing update. XD

Though, I do think that stronger mobs should give exp bonuses, if that's your problem.


Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:19am by KaneKitty
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#4 Dec 16 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Good
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Ahhh my bad sorry.

Admin please delete this I will gladly repost in the correct forum
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#5 Dec 16 2010 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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I agree they need to fix Party SP. Right now there is no point engaging monsters in groups bigger than 3 players.

Solo or duo though, the SP is fine. I'm currently duoing with a conj. We have gained nearly 5 ranks since update at about 10k SP / hour and since we both felt we didn't want to fight coblyns we searched for higher ranked mobs.

I'm not going to tell you where to go and what to fight (you have to figure that out on your own) but the monsters we currently kill yield 100-170 sp / kill depending on target and take 10-30 seconds.



I guess what I am trying to say is, if you don't want to bore yourself to death fighting coblyns, there are other viable monsters to kill for decent enough SP.

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#6alcide, Posted: Dec 16 2010 at 1:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) OMG you guys are gettin SO annoying with all this "Fix the SP".
#7 Dec 16 2010 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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GusMorgan wrote:
I agree they need to fix Party SP. Right now there is no point engaging monsters in groups bigger than 3 players.

Solo or duo though, the SP is fine. I'm currently duoing with a conj. We have gained nearly 5 ranks since update at about 10k SP / hour and since we both felt we didn't want to fight coblyns we searched for higher ranked mobs.

I'm not going to tell you where to go and what to fight (you have to figure that out on your own) but the monsters we currently kill yield 100-170 sp / kill depending on target and take 10-30 seconds.



I guess what I am trying to say is, if you don't want to bore yourself to death fighting coblyns, there are other viable monsters to kill for decent enough SP.




I know those mobs you are referring to and I would rather stick pins in my eyes than grind that type of mob to 50.

I like to be rewarded for tough fights in large parties. Between 6-10 for example - **** the game can have 15 so why not have situations that need them.

If SP scaled with mob HP it would be problem solved as coblyn/doblyn still give great sp fr duo/trio and harder mobs give more to larger parties. I really fail to understand the difficulity they are having with this.

Under random sp gain at 35 i could easily earn over 20k an hour. Now the best i can do is about 12-13 in a duo/trio party. I get less sp for fighting toughe monsters with more people - go figure
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#8 Dec 16 2010 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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You can get a lot of SP from linking rank 40 leves. Up to 3 links, linking is basically a multiplier of SP, it's only slightly less SP than if you had just repeated the leve with 4 people.
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#9 Dec 16 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Default
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alcide wrote:
OMG you guys are gettin SO annoying with all this "Fix the SP".

If only you stop complaining and start thinking about how things shuld be done it wouldn' be so bad.
In my linkshell almost all the members are around rank 40 and we NEVER grind, NEVER play in solo, NEVER get bad SP.


Then don't read them - the title was clear enough!

You also clearly dont remember the eft parties pre sp nerf and that parties were rewarded for fighting hard mobs not farming trash mobs. Call me stuck in the XI way of thinking, but being rewarded for group play fighting challanging monsters was a system i loved.

Yes leve give ok sp - but 8 every 36 hours - with this SP you are really spoiling us. What fun grinding the same copy and paste leve 30 times. Also - they are mind nummbingly boring - run miles thru grid kill a moster - run miles back to kill another to run miles back to where u come from. How is that making me a good player - oh yeah "your running skill has increased"

Yes Behest gives ok sp - but I still earnt more before the sp nerf
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#10 Dec 16 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Default
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Wyngale wrote:
You can get a lot of SP from linking rank 40 leves. Up to 3 links, linking is basically a multiplier of SP, it's only slightly less SP than if you had just repeated the leve with 4 people.


This.

And doing leves you get faction credits. With faction credits you do faction leves. With facion leves now you fight hard mobs and get nice rewards.

So, where is the SP/fight/reward problem?
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#11 Dec 16 2010 at 1:43 AM Rating: Good
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alcide wrote:
Wyngale wrote:
You can get a lot of SP from linking rank 40 leves. Up to 3 links, linking is basically a multiplier of SP, it's only slightly less SP than if you had just repeated the leve with 4 people.


This.

And doing leves you get faction credits. With faction credits you do faction leves. With facion leves now you fight hard mobs and get nice rewards.

So, where is the SP/fight/reward problem?


8 Leve every 36 hours is not enough to keep me going
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#12 Dec 16 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
alcide wrote:
OMG you guys are gettin SO annoying with all this "Fix the SP".

If only you stop complaining and start thinking about how things shuld be done it wouldn' be so bad.
In my linkshell almost all the members are around rank 40 and we NEVER grind, NEVER play in solo, NEVER get bad SP.


Then don't read them - the title was clear enough!

You also clearly dont remember the eft parties pre sp nerf and that parties were rewarded for fighting hard mobs not farming trash mobs. Call me stuck in the XI way of thinking, but being rewarded for group play fighting challanging monsters was a system i loved.

Yes leve give ok sp - but 8 every 36 hours - with this SP you are really spoiling us. What fun grinding the same copy and paste leve 30 times. Also - they are mind nummbingly boring - run miles thru grid kill a moster - run miles back to kill another to run miles back to where u come from. How is that making me a good player - oh yeah "your running skill has increased"

Yes Behest gives ok sp - but I still earnt more before the sp nerf


I guess you have never linked your leves. Today i was getting 500SP per kill in a leve and the mobs were lasting like a few seconds. You just have to stop doing them in solo, if you get a nice party (like 6 ppl) where everyone has got their own leves you'll find out 36 hours is not enough to do all of them.
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#13 Dec 16 2010 at 1:50 AM Rating: Decent
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You guess wrong sadly, and all linking does is mean that our ls burns thru leve quicker.

At least if we did them sequentially we have 8 multiplied by the number in the party. By linking you only ever get 8 still. Yes you can still get invites for other peoples and take part in them.

But trust me, we have tested linking and not linking.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:50am by MisterGaribaldi
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#14 Dec 16 2010 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
You guess wrong sadly, and all linking does is mean that our ls burns thru leve quicker.

At least if we did them sequentially we have 8 multiplied by the number in the party. By linking you only ever get 8 still. Yes you can still get invites for other peoples and take part in them.

But trust me, we have tested linking and not linking.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:50am by MisterGaribaldi


Yep, not linking give you more SP, but linking gives you more SP per hour, so i guess it all depends on how much time you have.

But the point is that 8 leves every 36 hours is not to little if you do yours and those of your party members. I usually spend at least 3 hours doing leves of a singular camp and during this time i get at least 1 rank
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#15Rinsui, Posted: Dec 16 2010 at 2:01 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Getting yourself a GF helps.
#16 Dec 16 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think part of the problem with the "mature" state of the mmo industry is that a significant number of players come to brand-new games with an expectation that there is little value in being anywhere but at the level cap. There was a time, years ago, when games would go for years with a majority of players not at the level cap, and everyone was fine with it. Now, people will apparently leave a game that is only a few months old because it takes them too much effort to reach the highest level possible.

It seems to me that the MMO industry in general is only inches from an evolution in leveling mechanics. My money says that leveling as we know it will disappear soon. Too many players get indignant about the need to put time and effort into vertical character improvement; they just want to hit the cap instantly to work on lateral progression through endgame. The fact that FFXIV doesn't even have an endgame and people are still doing this suggests that this leveling model is past its prime.
#17 Dec 16 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Default
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DO LEVES AND BEHESTS WITH A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE AROUND YOUR RANK! YOU WILL GET SP AT THE SAME RATE IF NOT FASTER THAN BEFORE THEY CHANGED THE SP!
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#18 Dec 16 2010 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
8 Leve every 36 hours is not enough to keep me going


Getting yourself a GF helps.


She plays XI..... Some of us are also lucky enough to be able to play whilst at work

Your point
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#19 Dec 16 2010 at 2:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Answering this guy with doing leves and behest is RIDICULOUS. Those are bonus SP situations and should NOT be the only reason to party in the game. The SP scaling needs to be fixed drastically to facilitate a reason to actually party in the game and do something other then hit 1111111111 relentlessly on too weak monsters.
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#20 Dec 16 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Those are bonus SP situations


Bonus SP situations? When did you get that idea?

When log on I am able to constantly do leves with people for many hours (with behest fights every hour). We usually never run out of leves to do because, if you organize them correctly and do not always link, there are always leves available. I don't consider doing leves for the majority of my playtime a "bonus sp situation." I'd say it was more of the norm.

I guess this is all assuming you have a decently organized linkshell(s). XD
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#21 Dec 16 2010 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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To me, the fact that you're supposed to progress not by challenging your skills by tackling harder monsters, but rather to test your patience by killing weaklings, is THE fatal flaw of this game. I don't know if any other changes can redeem the game in my eyes until this is fixed.

What's more frustrating is that it's such a SIMPLE and OBVIOUS fix.
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#22 Dec 16 2010 at 2:37 AM Rating: Decent
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To me, the fact that you're supposed to progress not by challenging your skills by tackling harder monsters, but rather to test your patience by killing weaklings


You can adjust Guildleve's difficulty you know :P
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#23 Dec 16 2010 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
To me, the fact that you're supposed to progress not by challenging your skills by tackling harder monsters, but rather to test your patience by killing weaklings, is THE fatal flaw of this game.


Exactly.
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#24 Dec 16 2010 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little confused.

For the record, I think the way SE handled SP starting at rank 20 is bordering on underhanded. So I'm not defending the SP system in its current iteration, but at the same time...

I can't help but wonder what would happen if I were to do a forum search for all the people screaming about the current SP system who also, in the past, occupied themselves trotting around making snide remarks about how they didn't want a game that was "easy" like <certain other MMOs> where you can blast to the cap so fast the grind is the challenge and if you don't like the mega grind you must want everything handed to you and blah blah blah...

(Ya, I know I keep coming back to this but it's the truth.)

Is it that you folks just don't really enjoy the combat? Is that the deal? Or maybe you don't really like the classes as they currently exist?

My issue with the SP system is that I haven't really been able to enjoy more than an hour of grinding on my GLA. Despite being stat capped where it matters (PL 50, rank 21 GLA) and having decent gear, my accuracy the last time I was out fighting green/yellow mobs was terrible even after the supposed increases to accuracy across the board and it's just...not fun? And the reason I haven't really been doing much kvetching about it is because I can add a straight +12 ACC from Brass Rings but had held off because I honestly couldn't spare four inventory slots. And if that's all it takes to stop the four-swing whiff fits I think I'll be okay because when I'm actually hitting, I love the GLA combat dynamics. As long as the process is fun, I'm not really all that concerned about the pace of progression. I'll hit the cap when I hit the cap.

Sometimes I don't think people realize the kinds of mixed messages SE gets. On one side you get the hardcore types who insist that anything short of a monumental grind is tantamount to being spoonfed and on the other side you've got people screaming that they're not at the cap yet despite not even 3 months of service.

I understand why SE has done what they've done. That's not to say I agree with it. I just think they've gone about it in the most ***-backwards way possible. Instead of prolonging the progression process by scaling SP requirements upwards more aggressively from rank 20 onwards, they started service with the game set to cut your gains on a kill per kill basis roughly in half starting at rank 20. Who the **** does that? If someone who hadn't played the game or read anything else about it were to come across a chart showing SP requirements from rank 1 to 50, they'd probably say it looked pretty reasonable if not a little on the speedy side. But then tell them that the SP you earn is cut in half at 20 and the entire thing changes.

Take a look at what the SP chart would look like if SE had kept SP earned/fight the same and then rescaled SP required to move from rank to rank after rank 20 so it would take just as long as it does now ("new" SP value in brackets after current):

Rank 1: 570
Rank 2: 700
Rank 3: 880
Rank 4: 1,100
Rank 5: 1,500
Rank 6: 1,800
Rank 7: 2,300
Rank 8: 3,200
Rank 9: 4,300
Rank 10: 5,000
Rank 11: 5,900
Rank 12: 6,800
Rank 13: 7,700
Rank 14: 8,700
Rank 15: 9,700
Rank 16: 11,000
Rank 17: 12,000
Rank 18: 13,000
Rank 19: 15,000
Rank 20: 16,000 (32,000)
Rank 21: 20,000 (40,000)
Rank 22: 22,000 (44,000)
Rank 23: 23,000 (46,000)
Rank 24: 25,000 (50,000)
Rank 25: 27,000 (54,000)
Rank 26: 29,000 (58,000)
Rank 27: 31,000 (62,000)
Rank 28: 33,000 (66,000)
Rank 29: 35,000 (70,000)
Rank 30: 38,000 (76,000)
Rank 31: 45,000 (90,000)
Rank 32: 47,000 (94,000)
Rank 33: 50,000 (100,000)
Rank 34: 53,000 (106,000)
Rank 35: 56,000 (112,000)
Rank 36: 59,000 (118,000)
Rank 37: 62,000 (124,000)
Rank 38: 65,000 (130,000)
Rank 39: 68,000 (136,000)
Rank 40: 71,000 (142,000)
Rank 41: 74,000 (148,000)
Rank 42: 78,000 (156,000)
Rank 43: 81,000 (162,000)
Rank 44: 85,000 (170,000)
Rank 45: 89,000 (178,000)
Rank 46: 92,000 (184,000)
Rank 47: 96,000 (192,000)
Rank 48: 100,000 (200,000)
Rank 49: 100,000 (200,000)
Rank 50: ----

To me, that illustrates pretty clearly how steep the transition is from 19 -> 20 and onwards. And the solution...the ONLY solution...is to eliminate the SP cut at 20. And I would imagine that they'll do just that...at PS3 launch.
#25 Dec 16 2010 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I think the real problem a lot of people are having with this new SP system is that a lot of people prefer straight up grinding instead of having to do leves all the time. Now with grinding, this new system encourages wrecking weak mobs as fast as possible instead of slowly wailing on the big stuff like efts before. There's rarely any need to strategize or use a variety skills and it's just a case of whacking enemies 2-3 times with basic attack now. I'm personally happy with the speed SP is gained (I'm only rank 30 at the moment) but I enjoyed grinding on the big, hefty mobs with buddies which is no longer possible. There's also the fact that SP is only really good with leves when you have guardian's aspect and that's not going to last forever.

I still think this is way better than the old system though where conjurers like myself had to compete against other healers to compete for the best SP. I'm also starting to see that like a lot of people are saying, the leve and behest SP past 30 is actually not so bad and is probably the most fun option for gaining SP too.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 12:24pm by UmJammerSully

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 12:25pm by UmJammerSully
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#26 Dec 16 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
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But then tell them that the SP you earn is cut in half at 20 and the entire thing changes.


Which is basically their way of saying to party up to make up for the cut.

Just like in XI scaling the mobs' strength much higher in relation to player so that killspeed would be cut in half if not more without a group was SE's way of saying to party up. Both accomplish pretty much the same thing..

...Except XI's system made soloing pretty much impossible for the longest time.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 8:43pm by Hyanmen
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#27 Dec 16 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Which is basically their way of saying to party up to make up for the cut.

That seems like an unlikely motivation. There is nothing about level 20 gear, mobs, or job abilities that makes it a natural spot to say "forgot solo and start partying here." And, even if SE decided that 20 was as good a spot as any to force party play, there are ways to implement it that are less abrupt than the current penalty.

I think what's actually happening is more obvious. Basically, the penalty at 20 is a "soft cap" for the ranking system. Soft rank cap is 20, hard rank cap is 50, keeping most players corralled at levels where there is more content, but letting the hardcore push past that if they really want to.

SE is slapping an artificial, arbitrary penalty to player progression after a certain level in order to engineer a player-base that stays closer to the levels that the game is currently optimized for. I suspect that at some point SE will decide that the game is ready for more people at higher levels, and will bump up the penalty point to a higher level. As it stands now, players who really want to level 30+ still can (and plenty of players ARE reaching 40+, despite complaints on this forum that it's nearly impossible), but the penalty point at 20 definitely makes pursuing lower-level content more productive.

I don't think it's a bad idea, personally. I just wish SE would describe it as such, instead of saying nothing about it and leaving players to wonder what the **** is going on at level 20.
#28 Dec 16 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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You can adjust Guildleve's difficulty you know :P


That doesn't nearly even begin to address the problem.

I've been saying this for years, and I guess I'll say it again. Most players want a reasonable test of skill-- a reasonable risk of death due to their own performance, and a reasonable chance of success. Obviously that varies somewhat from player to player but that's why nearly all great games allow for difficulty adjustment.

Some people, unfathomably to most of us, actually like grinding. But most people are not satisfied with fighting the same weak little ***** over and over and over. Is there a test of reflexes? A test of strategy? Even a test of teamwork? Well, FFXIV has elements of all those things, but none of them are even remotely challenging to the average player. And that's a huge part of what makes something fun in the first **** place. That's not my opinion-- as far as the field of psychology is concerned, that's a fact if the sky is blue.

The battle system is crappy, and needs a lot of adjustments itself-- the game will always be limited by it if not-- but an automatic fix is to simply reward players for killing stronger monsters. If it takes 10 players 30 minutes to kill a single monster and they face significant risk of utter defeat, they should be rewarded accordingly. However, that only goes so far until player skills are what determine success or defeat.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#29 Dec 16 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Default
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That seems like an unlikely motivation. There is nothing about level 20 gear, mobs, or job abilities that makes it a natural spot to say "forgot solo and start partying here."


Maybe they should start the cut from around rank 15 then? I mean, XI didn't really have any clear "spot" when monsters started getting stronger.. it was around level 10-15 or so, initially at least. Nowadays lvl20 isn't impossible to get alone, but it gets harder and harder as monsters get more hp and do more damage than you can heal.

The point (in this game at least) is not to forget solo- it is clearly their intention to try to do things better than they were done in XI, where monsters essentially made it impossible for someone to even kill, let alone kill for decent exp. Here the monster strength in relation to player does not change that much, obviously. They do not want to remove soloing completely like in XI.

They have also said more than once that the first 20 ranks act as the tutorial for the game, teaching us how to play. It would not surprise me if all the content we will see next year is centered around the 20-40~ range, and not 1-20 since ranking up is so fast anyway. The game essentially "begins" at 20 (which may be hard to believe now of course, but would make sense).

Players need to feel that soloing is not "fast enough" way to progress, and that only by grouping you are progressing at a reasonable pace. They can achieve it by doing it like this, or multiplying the TNL by 2 like Aurelius did.

Quote:
Most players want a reasonable test of skill-- a reasonable risk of death due to their own performance, and a reasonable chance of success


I disagree. I don't think most players want something like that out of the primary progression method of the game- sidecontent, yes, missions, yes, but not your everyday leveling up. Especially when you are relying on not only yourself but others as well. Most people just want to progress at a constant, reasonable pace in relation to the content available.

Sure, that doesn't mean the combat can't be involving, but that is, imo, something that can be achieved without making it "difficult".

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 9:40pm by Hyanmen
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#30 Dec 16 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Decent
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this thread seems to have a "so why not just ___" which usually includes partying with other people, however on Gyhsal no one parties.... ever.
i almost never see any duos, all active linkshells are only recruiting higher level members only (which probably got there pre update) and the linkshells that ARE recruiting are very low man in-active linkshells.

i mean, when i have two days off work and i want to devote time to my home MMO and level my favorite class(es), then what am i supposed to do with inactive linkshells and only 8 quests which are yeilding too little exp due to the constant lack of guardians favor and no one to link guild leves with?
even if you did link them, youd eventually run out of them to share and would be assed out in a few hours anyway, which probably would leave most mid level people far from that level theyve spent two or three days trying to get (trying to avoid soloing the exact same mobs over and over for hours on end in the exact same zone... forever)
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#31 Dec 16 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Mobs also get quite a bit harder the higher you level. At 15, my Marauder has 1k hp, and takes roughly 60-130 damage from green to orange mobs, and does 100-120 per hit, with 250 being the average weaponskill damage. My 33 Pug has 1360 hp (same stat allocation), takes anywhere from 140-250 from green and yellow mobs, does about 150-180 per two hits, and does maybe 350-400 tops with weaponskills. I don't have much more hp (although I could probably get it to 1500 or so if I boosted VIT), my damage is less in proportion to the mobs health, I take much more damage in proportion to my health, and my weaponskills are laughable. I can't kill yellow mobs reliably and consecutively as a 33 Pug, which means to solo I have to kill blue or green, which only give half of what they do for my Marauder. I wouldn't mind the difficulty increase if it wasn't for the SP cut, which compounds the problem.

I think SE just needs to take a look at the proportion of the total exp needed to level to the exp gained per fight of FFXI, and apply it to FFXIV. Also, I think the incentive to party should be higher. I miss it.
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#32 Dec 16 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
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But then tell them that the SP you earn is cut in half at 20 and the entire thing changes.


Which is basically their way of saying to party up to make up for the cut.

Just like in XI scaling the mobs' strength much higher in relation to player so that killspeed would be cut in half if not more without a group was SE's way of saying to party up. Both accomplish pretty much the same thing..

...Except XI's system made soloing pretty much impossible for the longest time.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 8:43pm by Hyanmen


You would have a point if it really worked like that, but in practice, that's not even close to being the case (especially 31-50). The fact of the matter is TNL's 31-50 are still designed and balanced around acquiring 300-500SP/fight. The old system took ~4-5 hours of straight grinding for efficient parties to gain a level in the 40's, and 3-4 hours in the 30's. While that was still slower than FFXI ever was at like-levels, it was somewhat reasonable given there was no high rank content, and they didn't want people quitting from cap fatigue. What the 11/25 update did was make the rate of progress 2.5 - 4 times slower, and here 1 month later, despite adding some level of endgame content, it remains untouched.

Ultimately, this is an MMO. A lot of people enjoy character progression (new abilites, new gear, new quest lines) over everything else. When you stall that to unreasonable levels, you've broken the game. Yea yea, we know, "Why the rush to 50?" or "You should be enjoy 100 HRS per Rank cause you're having fun partying!!"...GTFO with that, you're describing yourself, not me and probably not even MOST people. No one has the right to dictate where someone derives their enjoyment, especially when it's very likely a minority trying to do it to a majority.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:16pm by Furia
#33 Dec 16 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I think SE just needs to take a look at the proportion of the total exp needed to level to the exp gained per fight of FFXI, and apply it to FFXIV.


Should they also take a look at the total amount of time a single player is looking for group in Jeuno as well as farming for gil in Rolanberry, and apply it to FFXIV?

Are you just going to ignore this?

Quote:
When you stall that to unreasonable levels, you've broken the game.


Too simplified. What ultimately matters is the amount of content in relation to the grind to progress. In the end, what would be the best case scenario for every company is that there is so much content to do that people simply don't care about how fast they are progressing.

But how can you achieve this level of content? Let's make one thing clear: If SE were to make getting to rank 50 take less time, they would also have less time to fill the rest of the game with content before most players are at cap, waiting for stuff to do. They would pretty much doom themselves to focusing on creating content for rank 50 while having barren rank one through 40. If all the players would be at rank 50, that's where their focus should be.

There is no fast way to fix this. They either stall the players while they fill the existing game with content, or they make ranking up fast and fill rank 50 with content. The game would pretty much "begin at rank 50", a common mantra used in other games.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:21pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#34 Dec 16 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

You would have a point if it really worked like that, but in practice, that's not even close to being the case (especially 31-50). The fact of the matter is TNL's 31-50 are still designed and balanced around acquiring 300-500SP/fight. The old system took ~4-5 hours of straight grinding for efficient parties to gain a level in the 40's, and 3-4 hours in the 30's. While that was still slower than FFXI ever was at like-levels, it was somewhat reasonable given there was no high rank content, and they didn't want people quitting from cap fatigue. What the 11/25 update did was make the rate of progress 2.5 - 4 times slower, and here 1 month later, despite adding some level of endgame content, it remains untouched.


thank you for explaining that, i think alot of people need to understand this, SP gain is just plain too slow for the amount required to level, even in relative comparison to FFXI years ago.
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#35 Dec 16 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I think SE just needs to take a look at the proportion of the total exp needed to level to the exp gained per fight of FFXI, and apply it to FFXIV.


Should they also take a look at the total amount of time a single player is looking for group in Jeuno as well as farming for gil in Rolanberry, and apply it to FFXIV?

Are you just going to ignore this?


They already did. Like parties (Optimal Vs. Optimal, Average Vs. Average) were still several times slower in XIV per Rank than XI has ever been. That was under the old SP system. Now, it's not even in the same stratosphere.
#36 Dec 16 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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They already did. Like parties (Optimal Vs. Optimal, Average Vs. Average) were still several times slower in XIV per Rank than XI has ever been. That was under the old SP system. Now, it's not even in the same stratosphere.


Maybe you played a different XI then, because at least half of my time was used standing around LFG or doing pointless stuff I didn't want to do, 1/4th was used for farming money in various ways, and 1/4th was used actually progressing in the game.

And let's not even go into how random it all was. You may get an invite in 15 mins, or you may not get an invite in 4 hours. You may be able to create a 6/6 party that gets 5k an hour, or you may be able to create a 5/6 party that has to disband because there is no RDM lfg/the JP BRD has a JP ONRY comment.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#37 Dec 16 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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I disagree. I don't think most players want something like that out of the primary progression method of the game- sidecontent, yes, missions, yes, but not your everyday leveling up. Especially when you are relying on not only yourself but others as well. Most people just want to progress at a constant, reasonable pace in relation to the content available.

Sure, that doesn't mean the combat can't be involving, but that is, imo, something that can be achieved without making it "difficult".


Difficulty is a relative term. People don't want their primary progression to be too easy (e.g., 1, 1, 1, 1, 1...). People don't want to be dying every few fights, either, but what defines something as a game is generally overcoming a challenge. If there is no risk of losing, then it's not a game, but a job. Progressing at a constant, reasonable pace sounds like working on a factory line.

There is an optimal level of challenge for each individual, and most people fall within the same realm of skill. Right now, the level of challenge is not high enough for the vast majority of players. If progression were tuned to reward difficulty, then players would be able to choose the most appropriate level of challenge for them. Currently, every player is forced to choose easy battles.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#38 Dec 16 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They already did. Like parties (Optimal Vs. Optimal, Average Vs. Average) were still several times slower in XIV per Rank than XI has ever been. That was under the old SP system. Now, it's not even in the same stratosphere.


Maybe you played a different XI then, because at least half of my time was used standing around LFG or doing pointless stuff I didn't want to do, 1/4th was used for farming money in various ways, and 1/4th was used actually progressing in the game.

And let's not even go into how random it all was. You may get an invite in 15 mins, or you may not get an invite in 4 hours. You may be able to create a 6/6 party that gets 5k an hour, or you may be able to create a 5/6 party that has to disband because there is no RDM lfg/the JP BRD has a JP ONRY comment.

You know what? I'd rather sit LFG in Jeuno than massacre coblyns all day long. At least I could alt+tab or watch TV or whatever to avoid suicidal thoughts. Heck, I'd much rather be farming those **** birds in Misareaux Coast as the gil that brought in actually felt like progression unlike this coblyn crap.

Do you even play this game? Party play is dead. There is no LFG in Jeuno because there are no groups. You go out alone and smack coblyns. That's it.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 2:49pm by Omena
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#39 Dec 16 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have much to add except SP is broken.

I'm going to level a few alts to 30 in anticipation for a fix but if it's not then I'm gone as well.

Mostly i'm ****** at myself for not leveling as hard as I could have before the SP patch thinking it would change for the better.
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#40 Dec 16 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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All I have to say is:

/signed
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I might be an onion thief, but I'm still a thief.™





#41 Dec 16 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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If there is no risk of losing, then it's not a game, but a job.


Surely you apply the first sentence here too? Are you saying that games that don't have any sort of chance of losing can't be fun?

The difference between working at a factory and this game is that you don't have to play this game more than it takes for it to feel like a job. I couldn't stand grinding in XI for more than a few hours, but for those few hours it was quite enjoyable, especially when the progression was constant and reasonable. Was it because there was always a chance that you would end up in a bad party or end up being the replacement that arrives 10 minutes before the party breaks? I'm not sure, but I sure as **** aren't going through all that again.

I have always been challenged just enough whenever I have played in the past few weeks. Maybe this is some sort of high level thing only? I always set the difficulty a bit higher than is comfortable, get around +20~30% SP per mob for it, and fights aren't that easy.

Quote:
Do you even play this game? Party play is dead. There is no LFG in Jeuno because there are no groups. You go out alone and smack coblyns. That's it.


Yes, I do. I've done nothing but party for the past few weeks, since I find it fun and rewarding. Granted, I am not past rank 35 but that level range sounds like it needs some extra incentive. I am talking about the progression past rank 20, which is when the SP takes a hit.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:54pm by Hyanmen
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#42 Dec 16 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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I play MMO's to fight challenging mobs in coordinated group combat.

Post November patch, this is no longer a viable way to rank up.

In my opinion, group SP is broken and needs fixing.
#43 Dec 16 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They already did. Like parties (Optimal Vs. Optimal, Average Vs. Average) were still several times slower in XIV per Rank than XI has ever been. That was under the old SP system. Now, it's not even in the same stratosphere.


Maybe you played a different XI then, because at least half of my time was used standing around LFG or doing pointless stuff I didn't want to do, 1/4th was used for farming money in various ways, and 1/4th was used actually progressing in the game.

And let's not even go into how random it all was. You may get an invite in 15 mins, or you may not get an invite in 4 hours. You may be able to create a 6/6 party that gets 5k an hour, or you may be able to create a 5/6 party that has to disband because there is no RDM lfg/the JP BRD has a JP ONRY comment.



You actually didn't spend much time seeking in early year's XI cause there were so many players at any given level. The job prejudices were also almost non existent outside of requiring a healer and tank. Those things didn't become issues until the game was getting a little older. There was also nothing keeping you from forming a static or joining a big linkshell to nix seek time altogether. It's not entirely fair to fault the game because you chose to play it somewhat inefficiently. Standard gear could easily be bought though natural progression (mostly crystal and ingred sells), there was no need to spend a significant amount of time farming unless you chose to do so. No one is choosing to suffer though the problems of XIV, they're forced on us, because there is no better alternative.


Edited, Dec 16th 2010 3:24pm by Furia
#44 Dec 16 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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pixelpop wrote:
Quote:

You would have a point if it really worked like that, but in practice, that's not even close to being the case (especially 31-50). The fact of the matter is TNL's 31-50 are still designed and balanced around acquiring 300-500SP/fight. The old system took ~4-5 hours of straight grinding for efficient parties to gain a level in the 40's, and 3-4 hours in the 30's. While that was still slower than FFXI ever was at like-levels, it was somewhat reasonable given there was no high rank content, and they didn't want people quitting from cap fatigue. What the 11/25 update did was make the rate of progress 2.5 - 4 times slower, and here 1 month later, despite adding some level of endgame content, it remains untouched.


thank you for explaining that, i think alot of people need to understand this, SP gain is just plain too slow for the amount required to level, even in relative comparison to FFXI years ago.



I'm Sorry but I disagree completely!! in FFXI on your first job starting from scratch, and playing fair and somewhat casual. During the times of the pre exp fix and lowering ffxi it took anywhere from 6 to almost 18 months to hit max level.

In XIV that is possible way way sooner . . . Not to mention you can make gil far more easily and quicker . . .
Gear is available and easilly affordable. I don't know about some unless you got some lucky drops but XI gear took quite some time to earn funds to procure.

After XP was adjusted, bands were introduced, ToAU exp chains and what not that's when levelling XI sped up considerably . . . plus if you are complaining about 100-120 sp every 30 seconds or less experience is in XIV is far more easy to attain . . .

Plus at this point why rush to end game when its not even there yet . . .

I am sorry but what happened to earning something on the way up? just because parties are open to 15 people doesn't mean it has to be done . . . 2-5 person parties can do well and make 10-15ksp/hour and that is respectable.

I am sorry you cannot be max level in 3 weeks, it must suck to buy a game and not have an entitlement card saying hey you here plug this code in and boom your in end game . . . no wait even then someone will complain well why wasn't my character just started at max level.

I am with the people who like the ride to max level enjoying the different classes and then mixing and matching to customize my favorite class to my taste. Since as many have over looked when you take something from another class there is a level of nerf on the ability which is applied. Meaning all the classes do have their differences even though they can perform a similar move as another class, its however, no where near as effective as the class the skill is derived from.

BTW SE great update and if SP stays the same for now I am fine with that :)
#45 Dec 16 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You actually didn't spend much time seeking in early year's XI cause there were so many players at any given level.


Oh. Really. That makes me feel a lot better. I only imagined it all. Whew.

Quote:
you chose to play it somewhat inefficiently


I did everything I could, but I am not changing my real life just to fulfill the game's expectations as to what it thinks I should do.

Quote:
No one is choosing to suffer though the problems of XIV, they're forced on us


What?

Who is the Yakuza holding a gun on your head, forcing you to play the game in it's unfinished state? I'll call the cops right away.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:29pm by Hyanmen
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#46 Dec 16 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
To me, the fact that you're supposed to progress not by challenging your skills by tackling harder monsters, but rather to test your patience by killing weaklings, is THE fatal flaw of this game. I don't know if any other changes can redeem the game in my eyes until this is fixed.

What's more frustrating is that it's such a SIMPLE and OBVIOUS fix.


This times a million. I quit over it.

I'm not interested in stupid leves, they're lame.

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#47 Dec 16 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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Speeral wrote:
I'm Sorry but I disagree completely!! in FFXI on your first job starting from scratch, and playing fair and somewhat casual. During the times of the pre exp fix and lowering ffxi it took anywhere from 6 to almost 18 months to hit max level.

In XIV that is possible way way sooner . . . Not to mention you can make gil far more easily and quicker . . .
Gear is available and easilly affordable. I don't know about some unless you got some lucky drops but XI gear took quite some time to earn funds to procure.

After XP was adjusted, bands were introduced, ToAU exp chains and what not that's when levelling XI sped up considerably . . . plus if you are complaining about 100-120 sp every 30 seconds or less experience is in XIV is far more easy to attain . . .


We're discussing 1-50 here, XP wasn't adjusted 1-50 in XI. If you really took 6-18 months to get to 50 in XI, it's probably going to take you 4 years in XIV if you play on the same schedule. If you had to actively farm gil to afford standard NQ 1-50 gear, you made some mistakes along the way with buying, selling, and gil managing. Costs were largely covered by normal grinding drops. If you were one of those that had to have Leaps and a Hairpin, yea, you farmed a lot or camped a lot, but that was your choice, and clearly not the point I was trying to make. All we have in XIV at the moment is standard NQ gear. It's cheap in XIV, it was cheap in XI. Wait until people start selling legitimately rare NM drops before you say gil is easy to get and you don't have to farm.

Quote:
Plus at this point why rush to end game when its not even there yet . . .

I am sorry but what happened to earning something on the way up? just because parties are open to 15 people doesn't mean it has to be done . . . 2-5 person parties can do well and make 10-15ksp/hour and that is respectable.

I am sorry you cannot be max level in 3 weeks, it must suck to buy a game and not have an entitlement card saying hey you here plug this code in and boom your in end game . . . no wait even then someone will complain well why wasn't my character just started at max level.

I am with the people who like the ride to max level enjoying the different classes and then mixing and matching to customize my favorite class to my taste. Since as many have over looked when you take something from another class there is a level of nerf on the ability which is applied. Meaning all the classes do have their differences even though they can perform a similar move as another class, its however, no where near as effective as the class the skill is derived from.

BTW SE great update and if SP stays the same for now I am fine with that :)


Funny you should mention people that enjoy "different classes and then mixing and matching to customize my favorite class to my taste" because that is undoubtedly group that would LOVE to see faster SP gains. I already addressed this in the post you quoted, not everyone is partying for fun or to race to endgame content. A lot just enjoy gaining new abilities, gear, quest lines, ect... Slow SP is the bane of those people's existence. It's amazing how many of you guys are unwilling or unable to understand that not everyone plays the game for the same reason, or derives their enjoyment from the same aspect.

Hyanmen wrote:
No one is choosing to suffer though the problems of XIV, they're forced on us

What?

Who is the Yakuza holding a gun on your head, forcing you to play the game in it's unfinished state? I'll call the cops right away.


That's not an out of context, selective quote at all. I especially like how you omitted the last little fragment that read "because there is no better alternative", because it suggested your response is not at all the point I was trying to make.


Edited, Dec 16th 2010 5:31pm by Furia
#48 Dec 16 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Surely you apply the first sentence here too? Are you saying that games that don't have any sort of chance of losing can't be fun?


I would challenge you to name me a game without a victory condition, and by default, the possibility to not win. By definition, it's not a game if it lacks an objective. It's play. There's nothing wrong with play, mind you. There are just very few people who could log in to FFXIV and **** around (i.e., play) for very long without any specific intent to level.

Quote:
I have always been challenged just enough whenever I have played in the past few weeks. Maybe this is some sort of high level thing only? I always set the difficulty a bit higher than is comfortable, get around +20~30% SP per mob for it, and fights aren't that easy.


It's a question of whether or not the most efficient xp/hour is obtained at the highest level of play. I understand that the answer is a, "**** no." It's not that players will always want to push themselves as hard as possible, but that they will want to feel that they are doing things they previously could not (because they are better players, not as much because their character is better). Most players do not feel adequately challenged, and therefor there is no sense that they can improve as players, and that leaves them with no real objective.

Quote:
You actually didn't spend much time seeking in early year's XI cause there were so many players at any given level.


There is some truth to this. You could get a party pretty easily early on (it sometimes felt longer because you were a noob who wasn't used to waiting 10 minutes let alone an hour). You just couldn't necessarily xp, because the camps were overrun and there weren't enough mobs to go around. Ironically, this was actually helped somewhat by the fact that people wanted to kill mobs that were IT++ (kinda what I've been saying all along, huh?). It wasn't until later that people realized that it was inefficient and started to chain weaker mobs. Of course when that happened, competition for mobs was even higher despite the thinning playerbase.

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#49 Dec 16 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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if you think people who are going to quit the game are going to go looking for your SECRET monsters for only slightly better sp your crazy. i understand you dont want your spot over camped tho at the same time so my true response is /meh.

this was supposed to be a response to one other reply way at the top but im dumb and dont know how to do that.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 7:28pm by TnelisPotencia
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#50 Dec 16 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Good
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@ Furia

I do understand what you are saying. However even in XI which I never had a hard time making gil, however, I did mine and choco dig.

Looking at how the game is currently set up 50 is the max level and it seems that the game for the moment is set up for 50 to be the max level for a while. So levelling to 50 is basically all we have and 6 months in xi post level 35 could take quite a while considering the exp curve. On my first job I did all the missions, started mining, smithing, gardening, and choco digging. These things took time and I spent time farming beast seals and certain pieces of gear.

My biggest hope is that as the story line develops the levels for quests are adjusted for lower level users.
#51 Dec 16 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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All we can do is hope SE plans to fix it, because even if it IS working as intended, it sucks. People are going to start dropping left and right not from "lack of content" but because leveling is no longer fun and there are only so many coblyns for us all to go after..
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