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Leve NM reward... WTF SE WTF?Follow

#52 Dec 16 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've always hated RNG for drops. It's just insanely unfair for some people who get a string of bad luck, especially for content this gated (about 2 weeks to build up 600 points). Here are some numbers:

If 100 people continually try for the drop, nonstopping grinding r40 leves (assuming 50% drop rate) until they get the drop:

50 will get the drop on their first kill (2 weeks)
25 will get the drop on their second kill (4 weeks)
13 will get the drop on their third kill (6 weeks)
6 will get the drop on their fourth kill (8 weeks)
3 will get the drop on their fifth kill (10 weeks)
2 will get the drop on their sixth kill (12 weeks)
1 will get the drop on their seventh kill (14 weeks)

So 3 people will have to wait 3 months+ (longer than the game has been live) to get their item, while the vast majority of people will have gotten their drop in 1 month. What did those 3 people do wrong? Nothing. The law of averages should even out their luck over many many drops (at the rate of attempts: years!) They work as hard as the guys getting it on their first attempt, but are severely punished by RNG, and since the content is gated, they can't even grind for it, they're just screwed.

Instead, (again assuming drop rate of 50%) they should up the required total faction points to 1200 and make the drop rate 100%. This will ensure that the exact same number of drops are given in the realm, keeping the value the same, but it will not ***** a small percentage of people over for no reason.

WoW has realized this, btw, for those of you who are saying "even the casual games do this!". (badges, for those of you wow players, and tokenizing tier gear).

Punishing a small population with RNG so that others' items are more valuable is deplorable. Rewards should be based on effort. Make it grindier, don't make it more random.
#53 Dec 16 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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If they seriously followed the FFXI model for NM drops, stick a fork in this game.

There needs to be a way to guarantee a drop when you have to invest so much in the opportunity to try.
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#54 Dec 16 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Assuming an average of 10 points per leve, and an even split across 3 factions (that exploit does still exist does it?) = 32 points in a single faction per reset on average. 600 points req divided by 32 Points/Reset = 18.75 resets. 18.75 resets = ~28 RL DAYS. Yea, sounds fair to me too for a 50% or lower chance...[/sarcasm]

For doing something you'd be doing regardless? That doesn't sound so bad to me. These are the "BCNM" fights of FFXIV -- you earn the admission cost while doing things you'd be doing anyway, and every now and then your regular play gets you a chance to do a bonus fight.

And, really, the content has been available for an entire day. To assume that we now know everything about drop rates is more than a little silly. Your bitterness can wait a week or two until you're sure you have something to be bitter about, can't it?
#55 Dec 16 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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reccasensou wrote:
400 Faction credits is nothing.. R30 battle leve give 9 per leve? for an semi-end-game item :)

EXCELLENT POINT! At 9 per leve, all I have to do is ~200 levequests to earn the 600 Faction Credits required for an attempt at one piece of a five piece set? That won't take any time at all!
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#56 Dec 16 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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I think everything in the game should be free and obtainable from NPCs. That way we could all have pretty much whatever we wanted. I'm sure the game would still be loads of fun fighting mobs for no drops and ranking up for no apparent reason. Another benefit is everyone of the same class would pretty much have the same gear on most of the time, which would be really cool - like wearing uniforms at school, which is cool too.

Hey, this games pretty fun now that everyone can easily have a Ridill. Just big groups of Ridill warriors double auto attacking mobs to death while we chat on our ls. By the way dude, where's your Ridill? Oh, left it in your mog house? Here, borrow my other one so we can kill these mobs faster. This is fun isn't it? I can't wait until SE gives everyone Herald's gaiters next week. Then this game will be really, really, really fun since we will all be jogging around 12% faster than we used to be able to jog around... and get to camp faster so that we can double auto attack mobs with our Ridills sooner. We can also get to Kirin faster so that we can get Crimson gear sooner... even though SE is giving us all free crimson gear next week. I'm really loving what SE has done with the game. Everything is incredibly easy, so we can focus on.... you know, the other stuff...







#57 Dec 16 2010 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Nainz wrote:
reccasensou wrote:
400 Faction credits is nothing.. R30 battle leve give 9 per leve? for an semi-end-game item :)

EXCELLENT POINT! At 9 per leve, all I have to do is ~200 levequests to earn the 600 Faction Credits required for an attempt at one piece of a five piece set? That won't take any time at all!


Are we sure you have to repeat the two 100 point leves to repeat the 400 point NM leve?
#58 Dec 16 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Nainz wrote:
reccasensou wrote:
400 Faction credits is nothing.. R30 battle leve give 9 per leve? for an semi-end-game item :)

EXCELLENT POINT! At 9 per leve, all I have to do is ~200 levequests to earn the 600 Faction Credits required for an attempt at one piece of a five piece set? That won't take any time at all!


Are we sure you have to repeat the two 100 point leves to repeat the 400 point NM leve?



thats what i wanna i know.... i did the first horn in hand one today just to do it guess i'll find out in a couple days
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#59Kachi, Posted: Dec 16 2010 at 1:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes, they are the BCNM fights-- the flawed, cast aside products of early FFXI. I thought perhaps SE had learned their lesson when they stopped making them and instead starting making ENMs and ISNMs. This is the kind of feature that isn't appropriate in a more "casual" game and is already done much better in XI.
#60 Dec 16 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I think SE may be mistaking the gear they are offering with some of the real end-game stuff from XI.
Yeah, there was a crowd of people that would do floors 1000x and run the same dynamis 3000x, and yes it DID keep them around (subscribed). That was end-all gear though.

If they think by making this stuff take a month to 6 months to complete will keep players from moving on, they have made a mistake. I can kill a coblyn just as well in crafted gear, as I can in the sets just released. And let's face it, that's all we'll be killing for some time to come, as long as the SP is tweaked the way it is.
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#61 Dec 16 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Just a thought, but what if just crippling them isn't enough? What if you need to do one ability to bring it to down, so you can use another to break off the horn? Or perhaps you used the wrong ability and targetted a body part that didn't reward anything? Or didn't do enough damage with it?

There's all kinds of things that could have played a role. That's the risk you run when fighting a 0-day NM. In a few days or weeks, you can probably find guides on how to give it a manicure...
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#62 Dec 16 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mithsavvy wrote:
I think everything in the game should be free and obtainable from NPCs. That way we could all have pretty much whatever we wanted. I'm sure the game would still be loads of fun fighting mobs for no drops and ranking up for no apparent reason. Another benefit is everyone of the same class would pretty much have the same gear on most of the time, which would be really cool - like wearing uniforms at school, which is cool too.

Hey, this games pretty fun now that everyone can easily have a Ridill. Just big groups of Ridill warriors double auto attacking mobs to death while we chat on our ls. By the way dude, where's your Ridill? Oh, left it in your mog house? Here, borrow my other one so we can kill these mobs faster. This is fun isn't it? I can't wait until SE gives everyone Herald's gaiters next week. Then this game will be really, really, really fun since we will all be jogging around 12% faster than we used to be able to jog around... and get to camp faster so that we can double auto attack mobs with our Ridills sooner. We can also get to Kirin faster so that we can get Crimson gear sooner... even though SE is giving us all free crimson gear next week. I'm really loving what SE has done with the game. Everything is incredibly easy, so we can focus on.... you know, the other stuff...


Entertaining... that's kind of how I feel though. Presuming it's sarcasm. Although, after reading these forums for long enough, I would completely believe someone would actually desire the aforementioned lawls with no sarcasm involved.

I agree (again, presuming that is sarcasm) that if everything was handed to us 100% of the time, and for virtually free, it does not make anything valuable in the game. In FFXI, you had to work for some gear, and once you put in the time and obtained it, you actually felt like you accomplished something. IMO, games like this aren't for people that want easy mode. It's an MMO ffs, they have to appeal to hardcore, and casual players.
If drop rate is indeed 50%, that is more than what I would expect them to give us.
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#63 Dec 16 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
In my extremely humble opinion (because I'm sure someone is going to attack my character levels), having the items be rare increase their value to the player who owns them. I remember when, in XI, Noble's Tunics were a thing to be awed at, and now they're all over the place. Just think if you're one of the first to have whatever uber item is in XIV, wouldn't that be worth more to you than to have everyone who fights this fight get it? I know it's frustrating, but that's what makes it worth it.

****, this is the reason I turned in 10,000 moat carp, and why I'm working on getting my Ebisu still. It's worth it to me, and adds value to the accomplishment.


I understand what you're saying but I don't think your moat carp example is an apt comparison. I think that if we were to take and tweak the whole moat carp turn-in system to make it an apt comparison, we would have to add a component to the process where there was a random chance every time you went to do a turn in that involved the NPC telling you that there has been some sort of issue with their record keeping and they actually now have you down as having turned in 200 fewer fish than you actually have. Totally random. And something that can happen an infinite number of times if you're unlucky. So your buddy Sephiroth who has a horseshoe up his *** is off fishing with his shiny new Ebisu Rod having never lost any carp from his total and you're banging your head off your desk fishing up the extra 1800 carp you need because you wound up being the lucky ******* who was violated repeatedly by the RNG.

Any time an MMO developer chooses to gate something with currency, they need to think long and hard about the impact it will have on players who aren't rewarded for their investment.
#64 Dec 16 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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You have to spend all your faction points to fight NM?

So its like an instance that you have to pay for each time you want to do it... by doing boring leves?

Ok
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#65 Dec 16 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Looks like SE are trying to stop every level 50 character from running around with uber gear.

I dont have a problem with less than 100% drop rates. It will prevent everyone from getting complete sets of perfect gear within 3 months of release of the game!

Edit: I am also VERY disappointed that less than 24 hours after the patch is up, people have already killed one of the NM's. Either these people are great gamers, or there was no real strategy required in this at all. If the former, congratulations. If the latter - that is pretty poor!

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 4:19pm by HallieXIV
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#66 Dec 16 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I cannot wait to see the ***** and whine happen when SE implements the games real end game content and stuff like relics comes out . . . . .

or anything HNM'ish


have fun!!!!!!

I wanna see your rage quit after a few camp nights :)

and I agree about the ffxi-2 comment, there ya have the beginning of the shift towards there ;)
#67 Dec 16 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
Looks like SE are trying to stop every level 50 character from running around with uber gear.

I dont have a problem with less than 100% drop rates. It will prevent everyone from getting complete sets of perfect gear within 3 months of release of the game!

Edit: I am also VERY disappointed that less than 24 hours after the patch is up, people have already killed one of the NM's. Either these people are great gamers, or there was no real strategy required in this at all. If the former, congratulations. If the latter - that is pretty poor!

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 4:19pm by HallieXIV


It sounds like the real strategy isn't actually killing the NM, but triggering actions like breaking the NM's horns and THEN killing it.
#68 Dec 16 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Compared to FFXI SE gave us the easy button on a lot of things. If there's one thing that should always remain hardcore its NM's and drop rates. There just has to be something that will separate the casual from the hardcore.
#69 Dec 16 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, they are the BCNM fights-- the flawed, cast aside products of early FFXI. I thought perhaps SE had learned their lesson when they stopped making them and instead starting making ENMs and ISNMs.

But... ISNM fights worked exactly like BCNM fights except that you gradually earn IS instead of gradually earning beast seals, and the drop rates weren't any better.

ENM fights also had the low drop rates, except that you didn't earn access by going about your usual business, and instead had to spend time specifically getting the key item before perhaps getting no drops for the effort. That always felt to me like a reasonable trade-off for potentially doing them more often, but it's just a variation on the same theme, and plenty of people disliked that extra effort.

I understand where you're coming from in thinking that 400 points seems like a lot for a chance at an item, but your apparent preference for later versions of the same BCNM formula in FFXI confuses me. You're also, still, hinging your entire complaint on drop rates, even though it's only been a day and you still don't know how the drop rates even work on these fights. You might have a legitimate complaint, but it's too soon for you to know for sure.
#70 Dec 16 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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That's called goal oriented content for you and what this game desperately needs....makes people work towards something. I don't mind it.
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#71 Dec 16 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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What is a fraction point?
#72 Dec 16 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Default
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Goal oriented content? Whatever happened to fun content? Why do I have to pay SE a monthly fee (maybe...someday) to play the game and then pay a ******* NPC to take part in the content?

Garbage content is what it's called.
#73 Dec 16 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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unclejer wrote:
Really though, right now these are the BEST armor the game has to offer. If everyone can get 100% drop rate we will see people hiring 12 lvl 50's to kill it for them, much like they used to ks99 runs in xi. The worth of an item is determined by its rarity, if its 100% drop you have expensive crap when you get it. I have said this 1 million times and will say it again SE'S idea of casual will never appear casual to the western gamer. If you played xi in the true end game then you watched or waited sometimes over a year for your ls highest point war to get that ridil drop, through 5 days of no claim then a claim and no drop, then when he got it the next highest point war gets his chance. This is SE and I really cannot see that changing(nor for me would i like to see it change).
Thanks,
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i love this post. this is exactly why i like ffxiv and loved ffxi it is a huge time sink, but not in a bad way. there are many types of games out there and this one is and should be one that takes a lot of time. i played ffxi for like 7 years and never got that full set of rdm af or all of the sky gods drops but i had a blast trying for it. it even took me like 9 months to get my first job to 75 and when i did i ran around the house naked i was so happy. other games when you hit lv cap its like "ok" that was fun i guess. i wish they would make drop rates lower and lving up take a year but thats just me. i feel the longer it takes to get things in any game the better the experience you have doing it. remember waiting 4-5 hours for a hnm to pop then if you were lucky enough to get claim the feeling you would have, nothing can replace that except the same time consuming effect. its not for everyone but currently there is no other game like this so i hope they do not mess with this one to much.

sorry for crappy grammar and spelling but i dont really care :)
#74 Dec 16 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Goal oriented content? Whatever happened to fun content? Why do I have to pay SE a monthly fee (maybe...someday) to play the game and then pay a @#%^ing NPC to take part in the content?

Garbage content is what it's called.


No, its just called you don't know how MMOs have been working for the last 100 years. If its goal oriented doesn't mean its not fun, wtf are you on about (you're not paying any NPC to take part of the content). I would imagine its a lot of fun killing those NMs, it just goal oriented in the sense that it gets you working towards something, like "ohh I want me that harlequin hat, I better go out there rank up and collect some faction credits!!", don't get the item, try again...not really a big deal as long as you're enjoying those fights...if you're not, then that's a different story. It was like that with FFXI and its like that in WoW and since these two games are most talked about here I'll leave it at that.
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#75 Dec 16 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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The most faction points I've ever gotten from a battleleve was 16 (r40 leves only). Multiply that by 8 and you get 120 faction points per reset.

If it takes 600 faction points to attempt to obtain one runestone, then that means 5 resets (or 7.5 days) minimum. That's assuming you get the max amount of faction points for the same faction every time.

To me, that seems like a **** of a lot of time to at least experience new content. Compare this to ffxi where you only needed to wait 3 days for dynamis or limbus (no need to do 8 leves every 36 hours either) and you have a system that simply takes way too much work to even attempt.

The whole faction leve system in general does not give enough reward for the amount of work you have to put in. I mean, there are r40 faction leves that cost 300 faction points and only reward 4k gil. Where's the logic in that?

I'm not touching these things until the amount of faction points required to enter is either reduced or the amount rewarded from doing leves is increased - especially not for re-skinned gear with marginally better stats (or in some cases worse) than similarly ranked crafted gear.
#76 Dec 16 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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#77 Dec 16 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Goal oriented content? Whatever happened to fun content? Why do I have to pay SE a monthly fee (maybe...someday) to play the game and then pay a @#%^ing NPC to take part in the content?

Garbage content is what it's called.


No, its just called you don't know how MMOs have been working for the last 100 years. If its goal oriented doesn't mean its not fun, wtf are you on about (you're not paying any NPC to take part of the content).


********* It's 400 faction credits to fight the NMs that drop the runestones. That doesn't count the 200 faction credits you have to spend on the leves you have to do to unlock the NM leves. Faction credits are currency. You're earning currency and then you're giving that currency (= paying) to the regional leve NPC in order to pick up the NM faction leve(s).

Quote:
I would imagine its a lot of fun killing those NMs, it just goal oriented in the sense that it gets you working towards something, like "ohh I want me that harlequin hat, I better go out there rank up and collect some faction credits!!", don't get the item, try again...not really a big deal as long as you're enjoying those fights...if you're not, then that's a different story. It was like that with FFXI and its like that in WoW and since these two games are most talked about here I'll leave it at that.


WoW (and most other MMOs, for that matter) never requires that you accumulate any type of currency to enter content. That's the point.
#78 Dec 16 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Goal oriented content? Whatever happened to fun content? Why do I have to pay SE a monthly fee (maybe...someday) to play the game and then pay a @#%^ing NPC to take part in the content?

Garbage content is what it's called.


Pretty much. In SE's mind, why give us several things to do over the next 4 months, when they could just make the one thing take the entire time!


And yes, I understand right now they are playing catch up with quick patches, however I could see they were doing this the moment I realized that release was the exact same client as beta. They didn't put enough into the game, so they've made it take forever to do the few things the game does have. IMO its backfired, as most people just don't feel that its worth it.
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#79 Dec 16 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Goal oriented content? Whatever happened to fun content? Why do I have to pay SE a monthly fee (maybe...someday) to play the game and then pay a @#%^ing NPC to take part in the content?

Garbage content is what it's called.


No, its just called you don't know how MMOs have been working for the last 100 years. If its goal oriented doesn't mean its not fun, wtf are you on about (you're not paying any NPC to take part of the content).


Bullsh*t. It's 400 faction credits to fight the NMs that drop the runestones. That doesn't count the 200 faction credits you have to spend on the leves you have to do to unlock the NM leves. Faction credits are currency. You're earning currency and then you're giving that currency (= paying) to the regional leve NPC in order to pick up the NM faction leve(s).

Quote:
I would imagine its a lot of fun killing those NMs, it just goal oriented in the sense that it gets you working towards something, like "ohh I want me that harlequin hat, I better go out there rank up and collect some faction credits!!", don't get the item, try again...not really a big deal as long as you're enjoying those fights...if you're not, then that's a different story. It was like that with FFXI and its like that in WoW and since these two games are most talked about here I'll leave it at that.


WoW (and most other MMOs, for that matter) never requires that you accumulate any type of currency to enter content. That's the point.



then go play wow lol, what do you want to trade these currency for the gear with no nm to fight? how about they add a button that takes you to lv cap with the best gear and infinite gil, that way you wont have to actually play the game you can just say you have all this stuff since that seems to be all you want.
#80 Dec 16 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Decent
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In my extremely humble opinion (because I'm sure someone is going to attack my character levels), having the items be rare increase their value to the player who owns them. I remember when, in XI, Noble's Tunics were a thing to be awed at, and now they're all over the place. Just think if you're one of the first to have whatever uber item is in XIV, wouldn't that be worth more to you than to have everyone who fights this fight get it? I know it's frustrating, but that's what makes it worth it.


It's all fine and dandy to have uber-rare items, but those should be rewards for great skill, not great luck.

Quote:
Compared to FFXI SE gave us the easy button on a lot of things. If there's one thing that should always remain hardcore its NM's and drop rates. There just has to be something that will separate the casual from the hardcore.


Why can't it ever be skill? Why does it have to be either exceptional luck, or being a no-lifer? ;/

Quote:
But... ISNM fights worked exactly like BCNM fights except that you gradually earn IS instead of gradually earning beast seals, and the drop rates weren't any better.


Not exactly the same, no. As you pointed out, they were much more accessible than BCNMs, because it was a hundred times easier to attempt them than to gather the seals for a BCNM. If you lost them, you weren't set back the many, many hours it took to collect enough beastmen's seals. That's the key difference. Does it still have some fundamental flaws? Yes. But it was at least a significant step forward, along with XP rewards and no xp loss upon death.

Quote:
You might have a legitimate complaint, but it's too soon for you to know for sure.


And that is why I used the word "if."

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#81 Dec 16 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Default
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Wint wrote:
You haven't played FFXI have you? Smiley: smile


It's not FFXI if you're not getting faction leves as fast as getting kindred seals or beast men seals at the same rate. Sorry, I agree with the post creator here since it is a major waste of time and a insult to all adventurers at the guild.
I have to do leve quests up to 8 times and then going through the down time of doing it later. Not only that, but most of the leves quests are good for some gil and exp only.
    Maybe if they gave faction rewards for helping others in their quests, then yeah, it'd be fair.


Placing my feed back to them.
#82 Dec 16 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Decent
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elevens wrote:


then go play wow lol, what do you want to trade these currency for the gear with no nm to fight? how about they add a button that takes you to lv cap with the best gear and infinite gil, that way you wont have to actually play the game you can just say you have all this stuff since that seems to be all you want.


I would say you're completely missing the point. For a game with so many complaints of lack of content, they went ahead and added content that players do roughly once a month.
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#83 Dec 16 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really understand the attitude coming from you people defending this.

I'd quote you but there's so much it would take too much time and be tedious.

Honestly, though, where do you draw the line? I personally find this unacceptable as well. The person investing 400-600 Faction Credits should get 100% drop of something. You know how long it takes to farm that many credits? It takes weeks. It will still take MONTHs at that rate to get 5-piece set (unless you've been saving credits since day 1 and if so - good on you, you deserve to be the first in R50 gear).

I'm not saying it should be instant gratification for everyone all the time at everything - but Faction Credits is hard work in and of itself. Getting a team to fight the monster is hard work. Getting to 45-50 is hard work. Why can't this one aspect just be eas(ier)?

Instead there's this rampant attitude (that apparently SE is feeding) that it needs to be 6months to 8 years before you get a thing to make the thing worth getting. This isn't true at all. There is a better balance of "time spent" to "fun had." How many people do you know got a Relic (or Mythic) in XI and then quit within 4 months? It's because the time spent wasn't worth something that was marginally better (and I admit some Relic are game breaking, but others are just a touch better than the best on the market)? Well, I know at least 20 people who did this.

It's disappointing to work so hard for mediocrity. The gear isn't even game breaking - it's just unique looking and hard to get, but that's no reason to make it ridiculously long-term investment to get.

I would rather see the person who spent the Credits get a reward and the rest of the party get some 10% chance. That seems a lot more fair, in my opinion. You all can carry on being impressed by wasting time for mediocre results, though - and defending it like its a brilliant strategy for the time = fun equation.
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#84 Dec 16 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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It's disappointing to work so hard for mediocrity. The gear isn't even game breaking - it's just unique looking and hard to get, but that's no reason to make it ridiculously long-term investment to get

Then don't? You don't need the gear, and you don't seen to enjoy getting the gear, so why get the gear? The game definitely lacks content right now, but that doesn't mean you should charge hardcore into content you don't like.

A player that stays on top of leves will get a crack at this every couple of weeks. For a player who is doing leves for other reasons anyway, that doesn't sound like a bad bonus. The drop rate doesn't seem to be 100%, but it's also apparently decently high (assuming it doesn't get higher under certain conditions we don't know yet). Players who want this gear will have it in six months of not trying especially hard. That doesn't seem terrible to me, especially when players who know this is coming will be saving their points to have a couple of cracks at it right away when they access the leve.

The game doesn't have much content anyway -- there's no rush. There are NMs roaming around out there that can be camped every day (also with decent drop rates), and there are leve NMs that a group of friends could easily do a couple of times a week in rotation, with no competition involved.

I'm also a little confused by the people who think FFXI was different. People rarely got complete Dynamis, Limbus, or Salvage sets quickly (especially when the content was first added), and BCNM and ISNM options worked pretty much the way these leves do. I can understand the desire from something different if you didn't like FFXI, but coming to the sequel to FFXI just doesn't seem like the place to look for that.
#85 Dec 16 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Default
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I'm just gonna throw this out there: the OP does not demonstrate any level of attention to detail and there is a distinct possibility that his testimony is unreliable. See markup below:

babyplex wrote:
For those who still have no idea how Leve NMs work.. here's how

1) Obtain the 1st tier quest from the counter. (100 fraction pts)
2) Complete 1st tier quest
3) Obtain 2nd tier quest from counter. (100 fraction pts)
4) Complete 2nd tier quest
5) Obtain 3rd and final tier quest from counter. (400 fraction pts)
6) Go kill your NM and HOPE TO GET THE RUNESTONE.

Yes that's right... Runestone drops from the final Leve NM IS NOT GURANTEED

WTF SE? I spent 600 of my hard earned fraction pts on a **** NM and you wont even guarantee me, the quest starter 1 piece of equipment? Thanks for spoiling my holiday mood!

Our party of 13 LV 50s took down Tarbh Uisge in Bloodshore. We did not leve link.

Out of 4 tries, only 2 got the Runestone. And both were the quest starters.

Special damage like causing the bull to drop on it stomach didnt seem to affect the drop rate for the runestone.

And also after obtaining the runestone, its NOT a one to one exchange.

You need mythril rings and electrum rings in addition to the runestone..

I'm so ****** that the effort and faction pts spent was wasted..
We're here to play and enjoy the game. Make it simple, let us have our rewards, and move on with life.

Is that so hard to ask for SE? Why do you have to keep making things difficult for us players?

On your lodestone website pertaining to Tarbh Uisge, it says "Those who are successful in slaying Tarbh Uisge will be rewarded with a special item known as an Allagan runestone."

You might wanna change 'WILL' to 'MIGHT" please!

Botak Jones
LV50 GLA
Gyashl





Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:05am by babyplex

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:06am by babyplex

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:07am by babyplex

I appreciate that the numerous edits undoubtedly removed countless other spelling and grammatical errors, but there still remains a pattern: what the **** are fraction points? Sir, do you even know what you are talking about?

Moreover, as already noted ITT, the OP distinctly did not state whether the NM was incapacitated on every fight, while others who have fought the NM have expressed a 100% drop rate using incapacitation.

Taking all of this into consideration, one can only conclude that the OP did it wrong and is tantruming out of a sense of entitlement:

Quote:
Thanks for spoiling my holiday mood!

My only regret about Santa not being real is that the Krampus isn't real either. Ho ho ho.
#86 Dec 16 2010 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm also a little confused by the people who think FFXI was different. People rarely got complete Dynamis, Limbus, or Salvage sets quickly (especially when the content was first added), and BCNM and ISNM options worked pretty much the way these leves do. I can understand the desire from something different if you didn't like FFXI, but coming to the sequel to FFXI just doesn't seem like the place to look for that.


You seem to misunderstand the argument.

Quote:
If they seriously followed the FFXI model for NM drops, stick a fork in this game.


I can't understand liking FFXIV if you want FFXI. FFXI is much better, and XIV should still look like crap by comparison. FFXIV was promised to be more casual. I honestly don't know how you could have missed that, what with all the trumpeting there was about how it would be much more accessible to casual players.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#87 Dec 16 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you really want a easy mode MMO I'm sure there is more than one for you to choose from, I say let there be choice.


omg there is a massive difference between hardcore gaming and time sink gaming, just because something takes a thousand attempts and (much like in FFXI) hours on end to hopefully get a piece of equipment, doesnt make the game difficult and super skill demanding, all it requires is a large amount of time and patience, that is not hardcore.
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#88 Dec 16 2010 at 7:36 PM Rating: Good
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CaerithII wrote:
Moreover, as already noted ITT, the OP distinctly did not state whether the NM was incapacitated on every fight, while others who have fought the NM have expressed a 100% drop rate using incapacitation.


AFAIK the Head Incapacitation (break horn) drop is Bloody Lance Head, which is used to craft r50 Champion Lance. It has nothing to do with Runestone. But see, the Buffalo can drop TWO pieces of items required for TWO very different semi-endgame gear, not ONE. No comments on the drop rate of Runestone.
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#89 Dec 16 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Default
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Furia wrote:
AceAmallie wrote:
Never said they did it all 4 times for one. Like breaking the mosshorn horn caused drop... Its not even been 24 hours since NMs came up, but I think there is more to the incapacitation of enemies and drop then OP states.


Well it has to be assumed, since he says "did not seem to affect drop", that they incapacitated it at least once with no drop, otherwise he would have no reason to draw that conclusion. You could be right though, it's really just he said she said at this point. My guess would be it just increases drop odds though, not 100%.



They mentioned that breaking body parts of mobs will make them drop "new" things and "rare" things. I am sure someone with more time can find a link to source.
#90 Dec 16 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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I can't understand liking FFXIV if you want FFXI. FFXI is much better, and XIV should still look like crap by comparison. FFXIV was promised to be more casual. I honestly don't know how you could have missed that, what with all the trumpeting there was about how it would be much more accessible to casual players.

Ah, okay, I think I understand you. In that case, you and I just really don't see "casual" in the same light. If I read you right, for you casual means something that someone who doesn't play much can still get a full set of without putting too much time into it. That sounds reasonable to me. However, I was thinking casual more in these terms (from my post above):
Quote:
A player that stays on top of leves will get a crack at this every couple of weeks. For a player who is doing leves for other reasons anyway, that doesn't sound like a bad bonus. The drop rate doesn't seem to be 100%, but it's also apparently decently high (assuming it doesn't get higher under certain conditions we don't know yet). Players who want this gear will have it in six months of not trying especially hard. That doesn't seem terrible to me, especially when players who know this is coming will be saving their points to have a couple of cracks at it right away when they access the leve.

Meaning, I see this content as very casual-friendly, because most players will get it without really even trying. 90% of the effort in getting these pieces is something players do regularly for other reasons. You never have to dedicate yourself to this gear at all the way regular Dynamis or Limbus (or any FFXI endgame, really) worked. You don't need to meet twice a week for a year, or join a special linkshell, or anything like that. A couple of times a month you get together with your friends to do an NM leve that doesn't seem terribly difficult even two days after being added to the game, and you eventually get all the new gear. To me, that does seem pretty casual. Not only can "regular" players get the gear, but they'll get it without much effort.

I suppose you could argue that having to do lots of leves to get to the NM isn't casual friendly, but even the most infrequent player is going to be doing leves, so even the most infrequent player is eventually going to have enough points.

I guess to me, casual and fast don't mean the same thing. I like a system that rewards slow, steady play rather than diving into something hardcore. In fact, the people who like this system the least seem to be the ones who would prefer to be able to do it 24/7 for a few days until they've utterly exhausted the content and never have to come back to it. That doesn't seem very "casual" to me.
#91 Dec 16 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hi all,

Maybe a better system would be to put the price of these 'loot' to 2-3 runestones and make them 100% drop under the right incapacitation and battle regimen. That way everybody gets to farm xxx faction points and get confirmed loot, but at that stage.... I am also most certain the argument will steer towards how it is SO HARD to get an NM item compared to HOW EASY crafter items are to make.

Because I am quite disturbed by this new internet culture, I would like to highlight a few things to you guys with a few 'old man' talk:

: Vent all you want in the forums but refrain from getting too emotional. We all know what our best chances of getting the things we want, but we don't do it. Please, put your thoughts objectively in a convincing manner into many feedback sections. Don't get mad, spend that time and go get what you want instead.

: I do not think games should not mimic life but expecting investments to yield 100% desired rewards is just too unreal even in a fantasy world to me. Investments buy you a chance, and if you're good, your entry cost would be reduced to something manageable.

(P.S It looks like there is more than 1 way to incapacitate a single monster, perhaps you hit the wrong part? I maybe wrong here.)

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:01pm by renmabiao
#92 Dec 16 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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It's just the same old argument for me.

Quote:
FFXIV was promised to be more casual. I honestly don't know how you could have missed that, what with all the trumpeting there was about how it would be much more accessible to casual players.


This is exactly what I mean. I don't want the game to be like XI (much) at all. They trumpet casual play more than anything else, but there really isn't anything casual about ... any system in the game so far - EXCEPT doing a few leves every night, you know... just for the sake of doing leves. (Cause it would take you 2 months to level that way).

There are a lot of casual aspects to XIV that are not present in XI, but this game is still definitely catering to a hard core crowd who are ready to sink 6+ months into getting a set of gear that is barely better than previously attainable gear.

You can't just write me (or anyone else) off by saying "if you don't like it, don't do it." That's completely unreasonable. As barely better as it is, I (like many game players) have a collector complex. I will work towards it, but I think it's pretty unreasonable to ask someone to sink that many faction points into something for such a big "risk."

And for the record, I never complained about content. I have PLENTY to do in FFXIV (before this update) so that argument falls flat on me also. I don't see how grinding faction points (for a risky chance at a piece of gear) is the "content" that everyone so desperately craved. If it makes you happy and makes "everyone else" stop whining about silly issues like "end-game" content then so be it, but I think it's unfair and unreasonable.
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#93 Dec 16 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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I (like many game players) have a collector complex. I will work towards it, but I think it's pretty unreasonable to ask someone to sink that many faction points into something for such a big "risk."

Well, on this one I don't think you get to complain. A (proper, fully-featured) MMO doesn't necessarily expect or even WANT you to do everything. The idea is that there are plenty of different things to do to suit different tastes, and so everyone can find something they enjoy. When an MMO is set up that way, it's IMPOSSIBLE for someone with a compulsive collector mentality to enjoy everything, because the content is appeals to different people by design.

So, if that's how you're going to approach gaming, only a game directed around exactly the kind of content you like is going to be consistently fun for you. I doubt FFXIV will be that game.
Quote:
I don't see how grinding faction points (for a risky chance at a piece of gear) is the "content" that everyone so desperately craved. If it makes you happy and makes "everyone else" stop whining about silly issues like "end-game" content then so be it, but I think it's unfair and unreasonable.

Wouldn't you do leves anyway? I'm still confused about this "grinding faction points" idea. If you planned to play FFXIV without doing leves, then it DEFINITELY isn't the game for you, since leves are clearly planned to be a focal point of the content. And, if you do plan to include leves in your regular play, where is the grinding? You're getting the faction points for free in the course of your usual play. It would only be "grinding" if you did some leves purely for the faction points, but even then the "grinding" is required only to get the faction points FASTER, since you'll get them sooner or later regardless. In that case, it really seems like your rush for gear is the problem more than anything else.

Whether or not this is specifically the "'content' that everyone so desperately craved" really doesn't matter in an evaluation of the leve NM system on its own merits. If this is supposed to be the content that makes the game fun when it wasn't before, then it fails miserably -- it's just not nearly a big enough deal to achieve that. But, if it's supposed to be a cool extra thing to do with faction points that you accrue by accident, then I don't see how it's not a success. It's free gear that drops from a fun fight that you get access to every now and then through the normal course of play, without dedicating any special time or effort to it except for the fight itself (which isn't very hard). It may not be brilliant content, but it's a fun little addition, and completely inoffensive to anyone who doesn't desperately need to have everything in the game right away.

Six months from now this gear will be so common that it will have almost no prestige value at all. The seething frustration at not being able to have it all in a month really doesn't seem justified.

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:29pm by Caesura
#94 Dec 16 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
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And for the record, I never complained about content. I have PLENTY to do in FFXIV (before this update) so that argument falls flat on me also. I don't see how grinding faction points (for a risky chance at a piece of gear) is the "content" that everyone so desperately craved. If it makes you happy and makes "everyone else" stop whining about silly issues like "end-game" content then so be it, but I think it's unfair and unreasonable.


I don't think its the content "everybody craved" its a goal you play towards. whether you think so or not, FFXIV doesn't have anything to work towards until now. Imo the game needs this right now and if its "barely better than other gear in the game" then there's no need for anyone to go out of their way to get the set. If you enjoy this sort of thing then do it, if you don't, do something else. The game said it would cater to both hardcore and casual and considering the only people at rank 50 right now are most likely hardcore players, and are most likely players looking for something fresh to do, this fits right in. Moreover, you guys make it sound as if this is it, SE released a couple NM leves and that's it we're done, pack it up...just relax a little, content is on the way. You said you never complained about lack of content, then go play the game and enjoy it...why is everyone such a negative nancy??

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:31pm by SolidMack
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#95 Dec 16 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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In your calculation for faction pooint, you can't just discard the point that are not aimed towards this particular BCNM (nah I said it !). You basically get 3 shot at 3 differents fights during that time, which is a lot more and to me seems reasonable.
In any case, Im still far from 50 so I don't care much ;)

I nevertheless agree with the rant about RNG, to make it 100% with higher requierments seems a good way to do it for me. At the same time, that kind of fight should be "fun" and what we play for (not (only) the reward). By doing that thing, the fun content of the boss fight is done half often, seems a bit sad to me.
Bottom line there is no clear cut between both system.

100% drop ensure you do that once only (of course you do it for others, but still overall the fights will be done half less than it would with a RNG of 50% odd)
1% ensure ppl will turn ******* made ^^
middle ground of 50% seems pretty fair to me ;)

Edited, Dec 16th 2010 10:37pm by Anurid
#96 Dec 16 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah, okay, I think I understand you. In that case, you and I just really don't see "casual" in the same light. If I read you right, for you casual means something that someone who doesn't play much can still get a full set of without putting too much time into it. That sounds reasonable to me.


Theoretically at least. To me, casual simply means that you can play the game casually (i.e., not all that often or all that seriously) and still access the vast majority of the content at a reasonable pace, including endgame. In a casual game, 20 hours of content doesn't take much more than 20 hours to complete. In a hardcore game, it might take 1000 hours to get through 20 hours of content.

That's the standard by which I assess a game though. For players, hardcore will always be a measure of both skill and dedication. You can theoretically play a game for not very long and just be hardcore awesome at it. You can also suck at the game and play it nonstop.

Hardcore can always refer to both skill level and dedication; however, a game cannot be tailored towards hardcore play and be considered a casual game. It can be a casual game that allows hardcore play. WoW is probably an example of this, but I didn't play it long enough to know firsthand. As an example, you can't really be a casual computer programmer-- it requires too much dedication and skill. If you don't immerse yourself in it somewhat, you won't be able to keep up with the technology, and you'll never achieve anything. You can, however, be a hardcore stamp collector, despite it requiring no real skill or dedication.

FFXIV is in the unfortunate state of requiring no real skill to access its content, but a great deal of dedication. Offhand, I can't actually think of any recreational activity that people commonly enjoy with those kinds of qualities. These would be the kinds of things most people would look at and go, "Wow... that's amazing that he did that, in a useless, amazing waste of time, sort of way." Like making the world's biggest rubber band ball or something, or, I don't know, getting a Maat's Cap.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#97 Dec 16 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I still don't agree with your view, but we don't need to be attacking people's play habits, be they level 50 or 15.


That I fully agree with.

My only respond in this thread was to reply to an attack.

I posted this thread so people know first hand what to do to enjoy the leve NM, and most importantly what to expect (in terms of rewards) from the leve.

Granted, there might have been a rant or two on the way but that much is understandable if your spent 600 fraction pts and got nothing in return.


Edited, Dec 16th 2010 11:36pm by babyplex
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#98 Dec 16 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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When an MMO is set up that way, it's IMPOSSIBLE for someone with a compulsive collector mentality to enjoy everything


That's funny. I did just that in XI. The only thing I set out to get and didn't was Mjolnir and (although disappointed) I wasn't surprised that I fell short here.

Mythic was a great example of my point, though. Mythic originally was set up to be done over a long period of time by a small group of people. Then out of left field they threw in a 50,000 Alexandrite price tag - which was so unreasonable they lowered it to 30,000 - which a bunch of cheaters got within a month so SE said "Look, it's reasonable" followed by banning all those people within weeks of getting their Mythic. (Not exaggerating).

Now, I would not have minded doing every part of the Mythic Quest (in fact - I did every part of it) but the Alexandrite was too much for me. It's too much work for too little a reward. It tacks on a year to a project that already took me about six months.

I think spending 3-4 weeks getting 600 Faction Points is worthy of a reward. How does this factor into me wanting the full set within a month? I said (and repeat) it would still take almost 6 months to get a full set of armor. I don't think that's unreasonable. You could still theoretically get it in that time frame, but the frustration of a low drop rate is ... bush league. I didn't think it was fun in XI and I certainly don't have to appreciate it now.

It sounds like the drop rates are considerably higher than... say a ridill... or a Byakko Haidate even ... so that's great. What I don't understand is everyone arguing me when I'm just stating an opinion about what I think is fair or reasonable. Regardless, don't tell me how to play the game. I enjoy FFXIV more than most. I defend it regularly. I'm not a Negative Nancy.

I just think this was poorly implemented- another typical "SE-ism."
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#99 Dec 16 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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When an MMO is set up that way, it's IMPOSSIBLE for someone with a compulsive collector mentality to enjoy everything

Quote:
That's funny. I did just that in XI. The only thing I set out to get and didn't was Mjolnir and (although disappointed) I wasn't surprised that I fell short here.

And this is where you lose me. The system you hate so much here is pretty much exactly the BCNM, KSNM, or ISNM system from FFXI, but with apparently better drop rates. You get points by doing your regular gaming activities, and every now and then you can spend those points to access a special NM fight that might drop squat or might give you something nice.

I mean, it could take a long time to get 99 Kindred Seals, and the drop rates for KS99 items could be just terrible. But... you liked that? But, you don't like the leve NM system? You found it enjoyable to do Dynamis for three hours twice a week to get a nice item every few months, but it's unreasonably grindy for you to just go about your regular business and occasionally do an easy fight to get a nice item every few months?

Most of your perspective I can understand, even you don't seem to see "casual" the way I do, but on this one you've just lost me.
#100 Dec 16 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And this is where you lose me. The system you hate so much here is pretty much exactly the BCNM, KSNM, or ISNM system from FFXI, but with apparently better drop rates. You get points by doing your regular gaming activities, and every now and then you can spend those points to access a special NM fight that might drop squat or might give you something nice.

I mean, it could take a long time to get 99 Kindred Seals, and the drop rates for KS99 items could be just terrible. But... you liked that? But, you don't like the leve NM system? You found it enjoyable to do Dynamis for three hours twice a week to get a nice item every few months, but it's unreasonably grindy for you to just go about your regular business and occasionally do an easy fight to get a nice item every few months?


Maybe I shouldn't deign to speak for them, but it seemed to me they were admitting that they had a completionist compulsion. I was the same way for most of my career in XI. I dinged into a Peacock Charm on my main-- this was before it dropped from a BCNM. That's the kind of achievement I mentioned before that makes people go, "Wow... that's insane," and it really is kind of insane-- people couldn't believe that I didn't buy gil to do it. But that doesn't mean I enjoyed it. I did it, but mostly out of feeling a need to do it. It's almost like an itch. You don't like it, but it feels good to scratch it.

But now that I've moved past that (well, mostly), I see how much time I wasted, and how much I really hated that system. I don't want an itchy system. I won't accept it. It plays on the people who will jump through any hoop placed in front of them for the occasional pat on the head, rather than providing a genuinely rewarding experience.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#101 Dec 16 2010 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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That's the way it should be IMO. It should not be 100% drop. Things should not come easy.
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