Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Leve NM reward... WTF SE WTF?Follow

#102 Dec 16 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Caesura wrote:
Quote:
When an MMO is set up that way, it's IMPOSSIBLE for someone with a compulsive collector mentality to enjoy everything

Quote:
That's funny. I did just that in XI. The only thing I set out to get and didn't was Mjolnir and (although disappointed) I wasn't surprised that I fell short here.

And this is where you lose me. The system you hate so much here is pretty much exactly the BCNM, KSNM, or ISNM system from FFXI, but with apparently better drop rates. You get points by doing your regular gaming activities, and every now and then you can spend those points to access a special NM fight that might drop squat or might give you something nice.

I mean, it could take a long time to get 99 Kindred Seals, and the drop rates for KS99 items could be just terrible. But... you liked that? But, you don't like the leve NM system? You found it enjoyable to do Dynamis for three hours twice a week to get a nice item every few months, but it's unreasonably grindy for you to just go about your regular business and occasionally do an easy fight to get a nice item every few months?

Most of your perspective I can understand, even you don't seem to see "casual" the way I do, but on this one you've just lost me.


If people were so happy with the way things were set up in FFXI, they'd still be playing FFXI. Maybe they grew to dislike FFXI like I did. Maybe they were just eager for a change. For whatever reason, they're playing FFXIV and unless they're functionally retarded, they're aware that FFXIV was marketed from the beginning to be casual friendly. That means accessible. It doesn't mean easy. It doesn't mean everything is handed to you. It means you don't have to jump through hoops just to take part in the content.

That's it. That's all it means. Why are all these "hardcore" neophytes in this thread not mentioning a ******* thing about challenge? I mean real challenge, not time-sink, no-life, "See how being a shut-in makes me better than you?" challenge. I'm talking about an encounter that doesn't involve everyone and their dog reporting in on the night the "content" is released saying they cleared it with no wipes, no issues, just no loot. How challenging can it be if we haven't seen a single person talking about how their group wiped to it twice and almost ran out of time before they got it down? It sounds to me like people are showing up and one-shotting these NMs. But then the basement dwellers creep out and they're all like, "WOO!! No guaranteed drops! OMFG GO SE THAT'S THE CHALLENGE I WANT TO SEE!!"

*********

If gated faceroll content is what constitutes hardcore, fill yer boots. FFXIV's thriving population can afford to alienate even more people with niche appeal, amirite?
#103 Dec 16 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:
Things should not come easy.


Agreed, they shouldn't come easy. But not easy could mean challenging, or laborious. One of those is bad, and that's the one they shouldn't go with.

By all means make the battles truly difficult even if we try a hundred times-- just don't make it such a pain to even get to try for the drop.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#104 Dec 16 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,536 posts
Quote:
If people were so happy with the way things were set up in FFXI, they'd still be playing FFXI. Maybe they grew to dislike FFXI like I did. Maybe they were just eager for a change. For whatever reason, they're playing FFXIV and unless they're functionally retarded, they're aware that FFXIV was marketed from the beginning to be casual friendly. That means accessible. It doesn't mean easy. It doesn't mean everything is handed to you. It means you don't have to jump through hoops just to take part in the content.


Again they promised hardcore and casual content and this barely qualifies as hardcore but since it leans more towards it and considering its rank 50 leves and the only rank 50s in the game atm are the hardcores, this fits right in...I'm sure more content will be released soon, I hope it makes everyone happy (although doubtful).
____________________________
MUTED
#105 Dec 16 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
676 posts
It seems a lot of people don't seem to understand the meaning of 'casual gaming'. Allow me to simplify it for you. A casual game is one which you can play in short bursts without dedicating large amounts of time to playing. Endgame content in many MMO's, therefore, is not considered casual content. It exists for those players who have the time to invest in obtaining rarer items and climbing the hardcore ladder.

These NM leves are, therefore, not casual content as the time needed to obtain the faction points needed to begin the leve is quite long and there is a cooldown on the guildleves needed to obtain them. A common counterpoint to this is that casual players will be playing leves anyway. This is likely true, however a true casual game player may not complete all of their 8 leves in the cooldown timespan, nor might they succeed in all of them. They might dedicate more time to completing local levequests for skill points or enjoy ranking up new classes with their LS friends.

The point im trying to make is that these quests are not aimed at that audience. They are aimed at those with far more time to spend on the game. They are aimed at people who can invest the time they need to play it, obtain the faction points and claim the gear they want. You can argue about making the game as casual friendly as you like, but without a little 'hardcore' content you risk alienating those with more time to spend on the game.

SE knows what they are doing with this. Sit back, relax, take it with a pinch of salt. And if you're one of those casual few, enjoy the knowledge that eventually these items will make it onto the market as hardcore players continue to complete the leve and amass more of them. Why waste time complaining when you can spend it playing the game instead?

Excerpts from a casual game player.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 12:40am by Glitterhands
____________________________

FFXI: Siren Server: Seiowan Lvl 99 WHM, SCH, BLM
FFXIV: Ragnarok Server: Lemuria Glitterhands All Classes 50
#106 Dec 16 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Excellent
*
71 posts
Honestly (and this is just my opinion) given my level I am not even near there yet but... after years of playing MMOs being put through loops for end game gear is simply not a supply. Literally if you have ever played an mmo before to endgame you know all that is there is gear and the hoops you must drop through to get it. If they let the rng run the drop rates it just more hopes. But at this point in time ******** about gear that would only be useful to fight the mob you need a drop from to get the gear in the first place is redundant. This aint a pvp title and their isn't enough end game content to be salivating for new gear anyways. Look your part of the group that made 50 before the broke the levelling bar and replaced it with a skyscraper. With the few reason you have to play now why rush the armor? It gonna be a good while before you have the server catch up to you and by the time you get that armor you'll realize there is even less to do. Take it easy get your gear and play slow. Guys who rush to the top (and this is plain truth) are the first to burn out no matter what the game is. There is alot to complain to SE about but this far from warrants stressing over.

One day go look at the aion forums on getting endgame pants and see what a real **** is.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 12:42am by mainvein
____________________________
#107 Dec 16 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Excellent
****
7,106 posts
Quote:
Maybe I shouldn't deign to speak for them, but it seemed to me they were admitting that they had a completionist compulsion.

Oh, believe me, THAT I get. What confused me was that, after I claimed that it's impossible to enjoy everything in a game where activities are intentionally meant to appeal to different preferences, he said that he enjoyed everything in FFXI. As far as I can tell, he's saying that he enjoyed things that worked just like the leve NM system, but that he doesn't enjoy the leve NM system.

But the completist thing, I definitely understand that part. However, as a completist myself (I bet most of us are), I also know that the moment I have everything in a game is the moment I put the game down and walk away. MMO's aren't designed to be completed, so completists either need to learn to chill a little, or are just going to have to live with their own raging frustrations. The game's entire play model involves the impossibility of completeness, and complaining about THAT is just pointless. I want everything, but I know perfectly well that it's not good game design to give it to me.
Quote:
These NM leves are, therefore, not casual content as the time needed to obtain the faction points needed to begin the leve is quite long and there is a cooldown on the guildleves needed to obtain them. A common counterpoint to this is that casual players will be playing leves anyway. This is likely true, however a true casual game player may not complete all of their 8 leves in the cooldown timespan, nor might they succeed in all of them.

So even though these NM leves make it so that almost every player can eventually get this nice gear with very little effort, they are not considered casual?

Why does "casual" have to mean "quick"? Can't something be casually-attainable slowly? I would think that a very reasonable definition of casual would be "everyone can do it." Well, with these NM leves, everyone can do it, almost without trying. That, to me, is pretty solidly casual.

I feel like this is the big divide among players right now. There are people quitting the game because the game makes it too hard for them to have reached maximum level after only a few months. There's not even a good reason to be maximum level right now, but people still want it quickly. I really can't see SE ever catering to that mentality, because the game's content can't sustain that speed of completion. People who want to beat content immediately are going to be left with no content, and that's a poor design model for an MMO.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 12:51am by Caesura
#108 Dec 16 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
676 posts
Quote:
Why does "casual" have to mean "quick"? Can't something be casually-attainable slowly? I would think that a very reasonable definition of casual would be "everyone can do it." Well, with these NM leves, everyone can do it, almost without trying. That, to me, is pretty solidly casual.
Casual doesn't have to mean 'overnight', but again I point out that many casual players won't be spending hours grinding away the necessary levequests to obtain the faction points. Moreover, they may not choose to spend all of their earned FP on the NM quest. Some will, no doubt, but the time spent earning those points (only to get no drop) puts it out of reach of the average casual player. It's a bit like obtaining relic in FFXI.

The time needed to obtain the gear outweighs the usefulness of it for people with less time to play.
____________________________

FFXI: Siren Server: Seiowan Lvl 99 WHM, SCH, BLM
FFXIV: Ragnarok Server: Lemuria Glitterhands All Classes 50
#109 Dec 17 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Quote:

I feel like this is the big divide among players right now. There are people quitting the game because the game makes it too hard for them to have reached maximum level after only a few months. There's not even a good reason to be maximum level right now, but people still want it quickly. I really can't see SE ever catering to that mentality, because the game's content can't sustain that speed of completion. People who want to beat content immediately are going to be left with no content, and that's a poor design model for an MMO.


People are a lot less concerned with getting to max level quickly when the process of leveling is fun.

Honestly, it's better for an MMO to offer two months of content that can be completed in four months, rather than two months of content that takes two years to complete. Right now, FFXIV just screams "STALL THEM STALL THEM STALL THEM". Even when you get to max level, you're not done. You have over a dozen other classes you can level, and plenty of reason to level them (insofar as you have reason to level any class in the first place). They encourage and expect you to level other classes. And then they make it take an inordinantly long period of time to level just the one. This is another holdover from XI that ultimately could have kept me playing longer if it weren't there. I kind of wanted to try out other classes, but not in light of how long it would take me to actually get to enjoy them.

So if the combat wasn't boring enough, you're still spending more time using the same abilities against the same monsters in the same camps. Stretching that content even thinner.

Most people aren't fooled by these stall tactics. They don't feel like there's more game just because it takes a year to do what should be doable in a month. Tripling the TNL doesn't triple the game content. It just waters it down. FFXIV is a half a can of coke in a 2-liter full of water, just to make it last.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#110 Dec 17 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
Aurelius & Kachi have the way of things. They understand what I was getting at.

I agree, my compulsion that I had in XI has weakened. I will probably fight these NM - and probably hope for gear - but I certainly won't go out of my way. I won't be building (or joining) any LSs over it. It's simply not worth it. I think that's sad, because I want it but (apparently) this content was not designed for me. SE could fix this by making the reward worth the effort, or the effort worth the reward - but instead they want us to jump through ridiculous little hoops to keep us playing and to keep dangling carrots (rather than create new carrots - new content).

The more trends I see continue from XI, the less money they'll get from me from this game. It's not really a threat as much as a "I was hoping for something a little more lenient and a lot less tedious for mediocre rewards."

Also, like Aur said - I love fighting things for the sake of fighting them. I'm one of the guys in XI (and XIV) who sees an NM and goes "LETS GET IT" just to see if we can. From what I've seen, though, this content isn't challenging. It's just an obvious time sinks. I like my time sinks to be slightly more transparent (read: I have so much fun I don't even think about it).

I love XIV. Don't come on here and say I don't or that I should go back to XI or something ... asinine. I'm just not happy about the amount of time it takes to get enough credit to fight a monster that doesn't even guarantee me a drop.

(We also always assumed in my previous post, that each time you fought the monster you got a new piece of armor, which I assumed you wouldn't - which takes on however many more months of Byakko Haidate grinding for the sake of grinding).

Anyway. Fans can criticize. Don't always need to be zealous fanatics. Enjoy your new NMs.

Edit & PS: I never said I enjoyed them. I said I got everything I wanted in XI.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 2:05am by Kirutaru
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#111 Dec 17 2010 at 1:30 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,536 posts
Glitterhands wrote:
Quote:
Why does "casual" have to mean "quick"? Can't something be casually-attainable slowly? I would think that a very reasonable definition of casual would be "everyone can do it." Well, with these NM leves, everyone can do it, almost without trying. That, to me, is pretty solidly casual.
Casual doesn't have to mean 'overnight', but again I point out that many casual players won't be spending hours grinding away the necessary levequests to obtain the faction points. Moreover, they may not choose to spend all of their earned FP on the NM quest. Some will, no doubt, but the time spent earning those points (only to get no drop) puts it out of reach of the average casual player. It's a bit like obtaining relic in FFXI.

The time needed to obtain the gear outweighs the usefulness of it for people with less time to play.


Casual players might not spend hours grinding out faction points but they most likely will find themselves killing those NMs sometime down the road - I think that's the point the other poster was trying to make. I think this isn't really casual content but its not really hardcore - much like everything about this game so far, this drops dead in the middle looking for some definition and the community is split again on what is what. Good thing there was no PvP in FFXIV otherwise there'd be a civil war going on in Eorzea as we speak......hold on, that actually sounds pretty cool. Smiley: nod

Quote:
SE could fix this by making the reward worth the effort, or the effort worth the reward


Well that's two different things, which is it in this case? I thought the argument was that the reward wasn't worth the effort...but if the effort isn't worth the reward then that's a totally different problem. Now some people have pointed out that you need to decapitate the NM (chop off its horn, head, arms, pen....ummm legs, etc.) to get the drop and I remember SE saying something to that extent (not with regards to these NMs specifically) but if that is the case I think that's a cool feature. I have seen, posted on these forums, a screenshot of the world goat NM in which the group killing it broke off its horns to get them. If "breaking off" the horns increases your drop rate to 100% I think that's a pretty cool addition, maybe its not so bad after people start understanding it? as for the amount of time it takes you to collect the faction points I think I'm gonna just linger around here and read for a while, to each their own I guess. Happy hunting.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 2:37am by SolidMack
____________________________
MUTED
#112 Dec 17 2010 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
826 posts
I totally disagree, 600 faction points is not chump change for the casual or even semi-hardcore player. Even if you took a 6-man group, then shared and linked every leve you had for a month, you'd still only be about 2/3 of the way to having 600 points for each participant on the final NM fight.

____________________________
Jerri Blank (Strangers with Candy):
"I may still be doing all the wrong things, but now i'm doing them the right way!"
#113 Dec 17 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
Quote:
Well that's two different things, which is it in this case?


I know it's two different things and I'm saying either solution would work. Although I did have initial problems with Dynamis (and still do - to an extent) I didn't mind spending 6-12 months getting full relic armor (AF2 as it were). I thought that was worth the effort. (Drop rates in Northlands was a different story - as it superficially slowed down and already enormously slow process). I think some Relic (weapons) in XI are worth the battle to complete, but I think others fall sadly, sadly short much to their owners dismay (and resignation).

As far as this armor goes - if they want it to take that long to farm, it should be better. The stats should be higher. It should truly appear to be "end-game" gear (since that's as far as the game goes now). That's not what it is, though, is it? Maybe I'm wrong but I think we can all agree that it's simply a carrot dangling out there. It's a little, tiny bit better. You probably won't even wear the full set (unless there's a hidden bonus) because there are better individual pieces to wear.

For that - it should be "slightly harder" than that other gear. I think 600 Credits + NM boss fight is "slightly" harder than gathering materials and finding a crafter - or farming gil and paying an outrageous price (which you can probably do for these pieces as well).

Anyway, for the reward offered, I think it should be slightly more lenient. For the task given to us, I think the reward should be slightly better.

Quote:
If "breaking off" the horns increases your drop rate to 100% I think that's a pretty cool addition, maybe its not so bad after people start understanding it?


If this is true, then I stand down my argument. I find that reasonable. However, will this actually be proven? How long will it take? I don't imagine SE will tell us. I imagine they'll sit behind their desks and "lol you say its hard but you're not doing it right lol" like they did about Absolute Virtue for 5 fng years. LOL GOOD ONE GUYS. Way to support your community. So I do hope this is true and I do hope someone proves it (fast). Otherwise, my case stands.

It's my opinion anyway. I'm not asking anyone to agree. Maybe some people like jumping through hoops cause they have nothing better to do. I like what Kachi said. They gave us plenty to do (level every job) - and I'd love to if it wasn't so **** tedious and laboring on my first job. Oh well. Somewhere down the road (Lv99 anyone?) I'm sure they'll adjust the leveling curve since there won't always be a need to slow us down superficially.
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#114 Dec 17 2010 at 2:19 AM Rating: Good
***
1,408 posts
Wint wrote:
You haven't played FFXI have you? Smiley: smile


Yeah, this too. People expect everything to come easy, as everyone will say this is Not WoW.
XI's biggest rewards are/were never easy. Sky was a biggest example, spend ages getting all the pop items and then fight and kill the god then there was the % drop rate.
____________________________


If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#115 Dec 17 2010 at 3:33 AM Rating: Decent
While I have not tried these new fights or played the game recently (stopped playing for about 2 months), if you have to earn 600 FP for every run that is a bit extreme.

I for one did not purchase this game to play a prettier FFXI.
Keep the crappy drop rates and other enormous time sinks in FFXI.

They kept groaning about how they wanted new direction, then uhm take new direction with FFXIV? Right now it sounds like they are just
putting all of this stupid crap into the game to slow down Rank 50 players and the like from "being done" again. Yes, yes go ahead and say I just want "easy mode" and I'm a "casual", so be it. I'm 26 now and spent 7 years playing FFXI, trying to obtain and complete various items/armors, Sky armor, AF+1, Relic AF, Relic AF+1, Relic weapon, Salvage, etc. No thank you SE, not anymore.

I'm downloading the update right now just to check it out but, I just picked up Aion a month ago and I will probably go back to that.
I just don't have time for the time sink that is Final Fantasy MMOs anymore. I gave it my time before, and if this turns out to be the same as FFXI then I'll have to leave it for good.
____________________________
Nyla Dreshi - Istory 
Linkshell: Rebirth 
ARM-[22] / ALC-[15] / GLA-[15] / THM-[14] / Phys 30
#116 Dec 17 2010 at 4:11 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,536 posts
Quote:
I'm downloading the update right now just to check it out but, I just picked up Aion a month ago and I will probably go back to that.


Really? to escape time sinks you went back to Aion....fine then, go back to Aion! (that's gonna be the new "go back to WoW") Smiley: tongue
____________________________
MUTED
#117 Dec 17 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
*
165 posts
After reading all this once and again, update after update... it seems it's the same people that will never be happy, no matter what is implemented, changed, added, modified, etc. It's the same old "SE, I hate you" song. Bad if they do something, bad if they don't.

Is almost 3 months, if they don't like the game, even being free2play for now, they won't never. So just go and play another game, and let us enjoy and be happy with our precious updates. Is tiring reading this "Gimme what I want now or I'll whine". If you don't like spending time and doing an effort to get things (even if you lose and need to try again), so when you achieve it, it's something that will become valuable for you, not for the others, then you shouldn't be playing a game like this. If you are so eager to play a game where you are king of the world in 2 days, try RPG Maker or set your own private server.
____________________________
"Make something idiot proof... someone will create a better idiot"
#118 Dec 17 2010 at 5:35 AM Rating: Decent
**
291 posts
I like the game now.

I can still fault content for being a dangling carrot rather than substantial and/or worthwhile "content."
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#119 Dec 17 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
*
130 posts
In my opinion, being casual player (full-time job and in a relatioship), I think this is not very casual friendly.

Indeed, only the time it takes to gather those 600 FP (which I still don't even have half of that) to not have a 100% drop rate is a gamebreaker as was FFXI when I stopped playing because when you had 21-24hours repop mob (aslo means you lose the ToD because you cannot be there 24/7), getting the claim against 50other players and finally getting no drop is just... too much.
I thin that for a game being casual friendly (and casual, for me, as the time available per day/week to play, not easy mode) as well as hardcore, you can just not make it a time sink BUT make it very challenging fights (as in very difficult) where it would be all about tactics, not time involved. In that sense, hardcore can still have many more tries at it per day to find the proper tactics to kill a mob while it leaves the same 'probability' for casual GOOD players to make it in the same amount of time. It seems to me that SE is going again in the time-sink frame of mind instead of going: 'You want challenge? Try to beat this! And if you manage, well then, here is your reward but don't expect to kill it the day of release because you won't know what to do. However, you may try as many times as you want'.
Personally, I want challenging mobs that I could try to beat everyday (then I wouldn't mind a not 100% drop rate) but that would take me maybe a month to find out the weak point/proper tactic. Of course, if people have more time than me to play, then they have more attempts so they will get it much before me but what is driving casual people like me (in my opinion) is time-sink things.
If I have to spend weeks/months to farm something to attempt a mob, then give me a 100% drop rate and a not uber difficult fight because it already took weeks/months just to gather the item needed for the fights. If I can attempt a fight every day or two, then make the fight very challenging and not a 100% drop rate as I can try many times per week. It is all about the reward/time spent equilibrium that yet a MMO as to find to be as casual AND hardcore friendly. No doubt it is a very difficult balance to find but let's keep giving SE feedback (that is a least trying to have a more casual friendly game) from both hardcore and casual players to help them find this balance.

Again, I do not see why a very bad player that spends all his time on the game should be more rewarded that a very good but casual player! It should be about the skills/tactics/teamwork/adaptation etc. And I also find logical that a very good player that spends his life on a game should be rewarded much more that any other player!
____________________________

yfaithfully wrote:
To add to those, if you can get this DeLorean up to 88 MPH, you'll be able to play this game in 2019 when they've finally implemented mounts.

#120 Dec 17 2010 at 6:42 AM Rating: Good
*
50 posts
Ok few more people must have killed these things by now. Can we please just start gathering data on the drop/incapacitated rates and see what we come up with what the actual deal is?

I have now heard in game that a couple people got their drops everytime with incapacitation so I just e
Want to have people start pushing real data to see if this rate that is pushing this thread is even valid?
#121 Dec 17 2010 at 6:50 AM Rating: Decent
*
214 posts
Every thread gets turned into a debate it seems... :(

Has anyone else had success (or failures) with items drops? I read somewhere that someone broke the Giant Buffalo's horn and got it as a drop.
____________________________

#122 Dec 17 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
*
107 posts
Hugus wrote:
Is it just me or the overwelming majority of drops in this and other games are random?

Without a specific statement from SE I would be led to believe that this too would be a random drop so why the surprise anyway?

Hey, at least this works like in WoW, a lot of people should be happy about that!


this may be true, but this is why i left aion, i was sick of grinding/farming for days/weeks only to have a .01% chance of getting what i want after all the effort.
____________________________

#123 Dec 17 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
**
473 posts
Then again looking at what the OP posted and what some other have said. The drop rate if the mob wasn't incapacitated was not 100% and looking at the drop rate when it was is roughly50% or higher. This is not bad these faction leve's and the current NM's are yes for the marginally best gear available . . .

But understand this these marginal differences are what people spent endless months camping fafnir, behemoth, argus, aspid, roc, and the other highly notorious monsters. The feeling of earning said pieces of gear. Even in sky where you had to first farm the pop items, pop the guards, kill them and hop your specific item dropped and you where high enough to lot it. This is that system for now, this is all we have that even closely resembles end game, IMO it should not be a 100% drop rate. We should do it a few times over to get the pieces we want.


Why else play the game? seriously if there is not something to work towards to earn for your online character. Yes you got the points to do the leve, and good on you the player. however the points were for the chance to fight the nm, and not just get an instant drop because it died. Even in other nm's you have to invest the time to earn "the best possible gear" if everything was handed to you, I promise you will spend immensely less time playing.

After all this is an eastern rpg at heart get used to it, this is their style of development. I am sorry there isn't a god mode button there for some. I am very happy about how this was implemented, it gives me a goal to set and something to do. My LS and will be rotating these faction leve's and doing them together.
#124 Dec 17 2010 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
18 posts
While I think its extreme, so long as I get my runestone for activating my leve (and it dont go into someone elses loot), then I dont mind.

If you can get 10+ factions per leve, and do the right leves thats still 80factions per reset, so only take 5 resets to get 400 back. Sadly some dont know how to do that.

Its a shame you cant exploit it, for what I mentioned in the first post, if the runestone was to randomly go into anybodies loot, then the person who initiated could logout prior to completion, he'd lose his shot at getting a runestone but he could redo the leve, then another person activates and that person logs out, then the original guy has his chance now. So you're sacrificing your faction to get others the stones and you get your chance when you're not the initiator. But if it only drops 1 stone for the person who initiated it, cannot do that.

Maybe someone will theory test this.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 8:51am by viion
____________________________

#125 Dec 17 2010 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
***
1,022 posts
zoltanrs wrote:
I WANT IT DADDY! I WANT IT NOW! GIVE IT TO ME NOOOOWWWW!


LOL, how funny would it be if there was an NM that had a 100% drop rate on an item that turns you into a giant blueberry? XD
____________________________
Main character: AutumEmber
60blm/whm Rank 7 Windurst
Linkshell: SeraphsDarkside
Server: Bismarck
#126 Dec 17 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
685 posts
Has anyone thought that the items from the leve NMs are meant to be extreme luxury items, not something everyone in town's going to have?
____________________________

Crafter Consortium Craftsman/Gatherers Linkshell
#127 Dec 17 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
**
589 posts
Quote:
this may be true, but this is why i left aion, i was sick of grinding/farming for days/weeks only to have a .01% chance of getting what i want after all the effort.


not that it matters, but all drop rates in Aion where increased. Its not uncommon to see several gold drops a run. Wouldnt that make you happy? Doesnt drop rate increases make everyone, even the hardcore folks, happy? I vote for 100%. Not like its going to be THE best gear in the game. It never will be. That is the nature of MMO. Something will come along to replace it shorty, move along, nothing to see here...
#128 Dec 17 2010 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
Gadhelyn wrote:
Has anyone thought that the items from the leve NMs are meant to be extreme luxury items, not something everyone in town's going to have?


Exactly, even being Solo/casual friendly I really hope that this game will have some things that differenciate the casual player from the hardcore.

In FFXI I had most of the AF2 gear from Dynamis but none of the Sky or Sea (never even got access to Sea), this only made me cherish my AF2 all the most because if was the most difficult gear I had worked on to get.

As other people have mentioned before this gear is a minimum improvement from the crafted one so why should it be available to everyone in the game?

If you want casual go with crafts, if you want the vesry best (at the moment) expect to put in the extra effort into it!!
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#129 Dec 17 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,636 posts
I don't really mind low drop rates if there are frequent enough spawns. I don't really mind farming currency for a guaranteed drop. Doing both is lame though, and its just stalling. and its pointless. By the time people have their second or third pieces (which I estimate will be several months from now), SE will I hope have found the time to develop actual endgame stuff to be doing, and on top of that, hopefully interesting rewards that aren't just reskinned items with slight stat improvements.
____________________________


#130 Dec 17 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Excellent
**
568 posts
#131 Dec 17 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
**
589 posts
Just curious...what in FFXI requires you to be a hardcore player to get?
#132 Dec 17 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
*
74 posts
Speeral wrote:
Then again looking at what the OP posted and what some other have said. The drop rate if the mob wasn't incapacitated was not 100% and looking at the drop rate when it was is roughly50% or higher. This is not bad these faction leve's and the current NM's are yes for the marginally best gear available . . .

But understand this these marginal differences are what people spent endless months camping fafnir, behemoth, argus, aspid, roc, and the other highly notorious monsters. The feeling of earning said pieces of gear. Even in sky where you had to first farm the pop items, pop the guards, kill them and hop your specific item dropped and you where high enough to lot it. This is that system for now, this is all we have that even closely resembles end game, IMO it should not be a 100% drop rate. We should do it a few times over to get the pieces we want.


Why else play the game? seriously if there is not something to work towards to earn for your online character. Yes you got the points to do the leve, and good on you the player. however the points were for the chance to fight the nm, and not just get an instant drop because it died. Even in other nm's you have to invest the time to earn "the best possible gear" if everything was handed to you, I promise you will spend immensely less time playing.

After all this is an eastern rpg at heart get used to it, this is their style of development. I am sorry there isn't a god mode button there for some. I am very happy about how this was implemented, it gives me a goal to set and something to do. My LS and will be rotating these faction leve's and doing them together.


How do we go from talking about similarities of BC/Leves to end game from XI?. I like challenges and I am not trying to convince anyone to make the game easy. However, if I have time I want to do more leves to earn factions. But again, we're all limited because of the down time.
#133 Dec 17 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
386 posts
nonameoflevi wrote:
Just curious...what in FFXI requires you to be a hardcore player to get?


A party....

Just kidding... I couldn't resist
#134 Dec 17 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
10 posts
just want to jump in with 2 cents... the rnak 30 leves give 9-12 faction marks.... I'm 35 running rank 40 leves and get 16-18 marks a leve. So that leads me to think rank 50 leves can give around 30 marks a run.... 30x8=240 marks a day 3 days worth of leves don't seem that bad for something that is said to be a 50% drop rate.


EDIT: sorry i said 3 days of work, I meant 3 resets.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 11:07am by CrackinX
#135 Dec 17 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
nonameoflevi wrote:
Just curious...what in FFXI requires you to be a hardcore player to get?


Personally I never considered myself a Harcore player but I still spent months trying to get AF2.

Hardcore player in FFXI (when I used to play) were probbaly in Sky/HNMS LSs which litterally camped 24/7 based on ToDs.
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#136 Dec 17 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
691 posts
Aurelius wrote:

If people were so happy with the way things were set up in FFXI, they'd still be playing FFXI. Maybe they grew to dislike FFXI like I did. Maybe they were just eager for a change. For whatever reason, they're playing FFXIV and unless they're functionally retarded, they're aware that FFXIV was marketed from the beginning to be casual friendly. That means accessible. It doesn't mean easy. It doesn't mean everything is handed to you. It means you don't have to jump through hoops just to take part in the content.

That's it. That's all it means. Why are all these "hardcore" neophytes in this thread not mentioning a @#%^ing thing about challenge? I mean real challenge, not time-sink, no-life, "See how being a shut-in makes me better than you?" challenge. I'm talking about an encounter that doesn't involve everyone and their dog reporting in on the night the "content" is released saying they cleared it with no wipes, no issues, just no loot. How challenging can it be if we haven't seen a single person talking about how their group wiped to it twice and almost ran out of time before they got it down? It sounds to me like people are showing up and one-shotting these NMs. But then the basement dwellers creep out and they're all like, "WOO!! No guaranteed drops! OMFG GO SE THAT'S THE CHALLENGE I WANT TO SEE!!"

Bullsh*t.

If gated faceroll content is what constitutes hardcore, fill yer boots. FFXIV's thriving population can afford to alienate even more people with niche appeal, amirite?



If I wanted gated faceroll content, I would have stayed with WOW's PvE.
/rimshot
#137 Dec 17 2010 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
**
589 posts
Quote:
Personally I never considered myself a Harcore player but I still spent months trying to get AF2.

Hardcore player in FFXI (when I used to play) were probbaly in Sky/HNMS LSs which litterally camped 24/7 based on ToDs.


I do recall a time where I would get home from work (5:45ish), be told to come to sky, stay up there to do nothing else untill it got too late for me to stay up (1am), to have to get up at 6am to be at work by 7. I look back and wondered WTH was I doing all that time... I was a RDM so there was pretty much nothing up there for me and points system made sure that no one else got anything. But hey, if the drop rate was 100% im sure everyone would have been happy not needing to spend 7 hours of their life doing meanial task for a drop they may not get. hmmm 7 hours....seens like a 2nd job no?
#138 Dec 17 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
**
659 posts
Uryuu wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

If people were so happy with the way things were set up in FFXI, they'd still be playing FFXI. Maybe they grew to dislike FFXI like I did. Maybe they were just eager for a change. For whatever reason, they're playing FFXIV and unless they're functionally retarded, they're aware that FFXIV was marketed from the beginning to be casual friendly. That means accessible. It doesn't mean easy. It doesn't mean everything is handed to you. It means you don't have to jump through hoops just to take part in the content.

That's it. That's all it means. Why are all these "hardcore" neophytes in this thread not mentioning a @#%^ing thing about challenge? I mean real challenge, not time-sink, no-life, "See how being a shut-in makes me better than you?" challenge. I'm talking about an encounter that doesn't involve everyone and their dog reporting in on the night the "content" is released saying they cleared it with no wipes, no issues, just no loot. How challenging can it be if we haven't seen a single person talking about how their group wiped to it twice and almost ran out of time before they got it down? It sounds to me like people are showing up and one-shotting these NMs. But then the basement dwellers creep out and they're all like, "WOO!! No guaranteed drops! OMFG GO SE THAT'S THE CHALLENGE I WANT TO SEE!!"

Bullsh*t.

If gated faceroll content is what constitutes hardcore, fill yer boots. FFXIV's thriving population can afford to alienate even more people with niche appeal, amirite?



If I wanted gated faceroll content, I would have stayed with WOW's PvE.
/rimshot



WoW's PVE endgame is actually a challenge and is miles ahead of difficulty compared to ff11 or ff14. Your post proves you never did ANY hardmodes in WoW so you should probably shut the **** up.
____________________________
Aggieland -> "From the outside looking in, you can't understand it. From the inside out, you can't explain it."

Final Fantasy XIV: Neithan Turambar, Cactuar Server
Guild Wars 2: Level 80 Guardian Neithan Turambar Jade Quarry Server
WoW: Lvl 85 Shaman Friewyn Black Dragonflight Server (retired)
FFXI: Lvl 75 Dark Knight Neithan (retired many years ago)
LotRO: Lvl 30 Maethros (retired)
#139 Dec 17 2010 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,214 posts
ThePacster wrote:
nonameoflevi wrote:
Just curious...what in FFXI requires you to be a hardcore player to get?


A party....

Just kidding... I couldn't resist

I played 11 for over 5 years, and I never got a single complete set of AF gear, I never got a single sky or sea item, and I never got a piece of AF2 gear, and I won't even go into limbus.
I had a level 75 nin and 75 blu. However, I did not play enough to stay in a sky linkshell (I actually was kicked out for the most part because I couldn't make every farming run, and after 2 months of trying I spent more gil than I made doing it). And well, in dynamis, I got out lotted, or out pointed on every af item by others who didn't play their ninja's (they were people who leveled it out of boredom, or liked it after getting NI and so they pushed it up to get dynamis drops), so the only items I got were when pretty much everyone else had theirs. I don't remember the last item I was trying to get, but there was one piece of nin af I had left before our dynamis linkshell fell apart. And then there were relic weapons... yeah... If that isn't the personification of hardcore gear, I don't know what is.

So, yes, there are quite a bit of drops in 11 that are die-hard items. As a casual player, I made due with items that I could farm, or that I could get with a few close friends.
I had every storyline mission completed up to Aht Urgan, and was actually fairly well respected as a ninja and blu by people who had partied with me. I had every blu spell, and leveled every subjob for nin except for drk.

So, when it comes to elitist stuff like these NMs I admit I am alittle jaded, and I do chuckle at people's frustration. But, if you want the item, I am sure, in time you will get it. So, I don't understand what the rush is. But, at the end of the day, it's the same stuff. Might be fun to have someday, but it will take me at least a year before I am even at a level where I care about them. And by then, something bigger and better will come out, so, yeah, I will probably never waste my time on them.

That is the meaning of casual. And while I may stick with crafted gear, 14 actually has something that is slightly better (in my opinion), crafted from drop (e.g. I use the vintage shield at 20 due to it's overal stats).

Just reminds me of a saying my grandpa used to say: "If you don't first succeed, try a smart pill."
#140 Dec 17 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
NeithanTheWronged wrote:
WoW's PVE endgame is actually a challenge and is miles ahead of difficulty compared to ff11 or ff14. Your post proves you never did ANY hardmodes in WoW so you should probably shut the **** up.


Most of the chalenge in WoW end game is to find and download all the Add-Ons that tell you what to do during the fights.

Why come all the way from WoW forums to FFXIV just to talk dirt?
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#141 Dec 17 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
nonameoflevi wrote:
Quote:
Personally I never considered myself a Harcore player but I still spent months trying to get AF2.

Hardcore player in FFXI (when I used to play) were probbaly in Sky/HNMS LSs which litterally camped 24/7 based on ToDs.


I do recall a time where I would get home from work (5:45ish), be told to come to sky, stay up there to do nothing else untill it got too late for me to stay up (1am), to have to get up at 6am to be at work by 7. I look back and wondered WTH was I doing all that time... I was a RDM so there was pretty much nothing up there for me and points system made sure that no one else got anything. But hey, if the drop rate was 100% im sure everyone would have been happy not needing to spend 7 hours of their life doing meanial task for a drop they may not get. hmmm 7 hours....seens like a 2nd job no?


Well, I think you need to enjoy what you are doing. I didn't to hardcore sky but I did my fair share. The thing is, if you are with a good linskhell, then its fun. A lot of linkshells are run like dictatorships and it makes events like sky stressful. A linkshell should not be like this - but you need to be careful who you let in. if you let a bunch of immature people in, then you pretty much have to run it like a dictatorship to have any success at anything.

Anyway, Crimson Cuisses are a pretty pimp RDM item. Once I got mine I could solo Zipacna, Ullli, Despot without too much difficulty (I wasn't good enough to even attempt Faust or some others). By that time I was pretty much on my own so I freelanced my Cuisses with relative ease and just soloed those pop NMs for fun and sold the drops.
#142 Dec 17 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
I'm not really defending this specific issue. This particular item seems like something that should be a 100% drop since you have to do a lot of up front work to get the points etc. I'm more a fan of the "random" pop NMs having rare drops.

While on this topic, it would be cool if every now and then they woudl put a **** nice item in a treasure chest. Similar to finding a Ridill in a chest. Just make the odds really really small. it would be fun opening chests knowing theres a lottery type chance of something badass in there.
#143 Dec 17 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
**
589 posts
Quote:
I played 11 for over 5 years, and I never got a single complete set of AF gear, I never got a single sky or sea item, and I never got a piece of AF2 gear, and I won't even go into limbus.
I had a level 75 nin and 75 blu. However, I did not play enough to stay in a sky linkshell (I actually was kicked out for the most part because I couldn't make every farming run, and after 2 months of trying I spent more gil than I made doing it). And well, in dynamis, I got out lotted, or out pointed on every af item by others who didn't play their ninja's (they were people who leveled it out of boredom, or liked it after getting NI and so they pushed it up to get dynamis drops), so the only items I got were when pretty much everyone else had theirs. I don't remember the last item I was trying to get, but there was one piece of nin af I had left before our dynamis linkshell fell apart. And then there were relic weapons... yeah... If that isn't the personification of hardcore gear, I don't know what is.


I understand what your saying.. maybe its the jobs you had. maybe it the shells I had. I got full af sets for a few jobs...maybe no one wanted them is why I dunno. I also has a small sea shell and limbus wasnt hard to do. We never did any of the jailers, so that may have been our trade off. relic weapons.... I dunno... Im sure if someone was oragnized with a shell they could get it done in a few months, that or a credit card.... sorry but its the truth. Maybe I dont understand hardcore as much as I think. Given time anyone can achive most of the stuff in these games. Hardcore to me would be having/needing some people decked out in gear because that was the only way a boss/nm/ or w/e can be killed and even then, people will find eaiser ways, level caps will be raised, new skills and gear will be added. Seems all mute to me.
#144 Dec 17 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
691 posts
Hugus wrote:
NeithanTheWronged wrote:
WoW's PVE endgame is actually a challenge and is miles ahead of difficulty compared to ff11 or ff14. Your post proves you never did ANY hardmodes in WoW so you should probably shut the **** up.


Most of the chalenge in WoW end game is to find and download all the Add-Ons that tell you what to do during the fights.

Why come all the way from WoW forums to FFXIV just to talk dirt?


One-shotted half of icc's "hard"modes in a single sitting with a random pug, then realized the game had gotten even worse since my long break and canceled my subscription again before Cata's release. Funny thing is the month's time expired an hour at most after cata released, almost to the exact minute, even though I could have sworn I had restarted it halfway into the month.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 11:27am by Uryuu
#145 Dec 17 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Excellent
**
800 posts
I find it amusing that you guys are arguing whether or not this is casual content even though no casual player is even close to rank 50 right now. This is quite obviously a bone thrown to hard-core players at or near rank 50 so they have something to do. 400 faction points is a pretty small "hard-core" requirement, especially if this is as high as a 50% drop rate.

By the time the average casual player is near rank 50 there will be much more rank 50 content. Complaining that this isn't enough casual content when casual players aren't even close to doing it is silly.

Complain that SE didn't add low level content. Complain that SE didn't fix the party problems. But complaining that level-cap content in a 3 month old MMO doesn't cater to casuals even though casuals aren't even close to attempting it? I don't think you guys are really as "casual" as you claim to be.
#146 Dec 17 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
18 posts
What I dont think you guys understand is, the gear you get is utter ****, almost every piece is rubbish, there are craftable items that are WAY better by a long shot.

Why should we work so hard for something so rubbish, in-fact why do it at all?
____________________________

#147 Dec 17 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
zoltanrs wrote:
I WANT IT DADDY! I WANT IT NOW! GIVE IT TO ME NOOOOWWWW!


pretty much. I am ok with challenges like these. I sometimes feel like SE is making FFXIV too much like WoW. SE, please don't make this game even easier.

Just work on the UI.

Thanks!
____________________________

#148 Dec 17 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Hydragyrum wrote:
I find it amusing that you guys are arguing whether or not this is casual content even though no casual player is even close to rank 50 right now. This is quite obviously a bone thrown to hard-core players at or near rank 50 so they have something to do. 400 faction points is a pretty small "hard-core" requirement, especially if this is as high as a 50% drop rate.

By the time the average casual player is near rank 50 there will be much more rank 50 content. Complaining that this isn't enough casual content when casual players aren't even close to doing it is silly.

Complain that SE didn't add low level content. Complain that SE didn't fix the party problems. But complaining that level-cap content in a 3 month old MMO doesn't cater to casuals even though casuals aren't even close to attempting it? I don't think you guys are really as "casual" as you claim to be.


Oh wow, I agree. If you are 50 now, you are not really casual player. If you are 50 now, you probably spend a lot of time playing FFXIV (hardcore? yes?). So why would you want things to be easier? If things were how you wanted it, then you would find yourself with nothing else to do. You should appreciate moments like these that allow you take a step back to continue playing ffxiv.

And when you spend enough time on something, the reward is so much greater. I don't want items that EVERYONE else has. I want opportunities that allow myself to stand out and be unique.
____________________________

#149 Dec 17 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
676 posts
Quote:
Casual players might not spend hours grinding out faction points but they most likely will find themselves killing those NMs sometime down the road - I think that's the point the other poster was trying to make. I think this isn't really casual content but its not really hardcore
Perhaps, but the definition of 'hardcore' is a loose one too. Certainly casual players may decide to take on the NMs at some point but as it isn't a 100% drop rate, they might never see the item they worked so hard for. That's my main reason for deeming it as content intended for the more dedicated player.

Allow me to clarify things with some figures. At present we can only do guildleves at a rate of 8 every 36 hours. You would need 18.5 days to obtain all the necessary points (600) assuming you gain 9 faction points every leve. However, there is another issue. There is a limit to the number of available leves, meaning you will either have to do some for other cities, which gives you points for a different faction, or run lower rank leves which results in less points.

Not once have I said that casual game players cannot participate, nor that they will avoid doing so. I am merely stating that it's clear these NM leves were designed more for players who can dedicate greater amounts of time to playing the game. The facts speak for themselves. They're rank 50 leves, they need a lot of FP to participate in and they do not guarantee drops.

People are complaining that it's not casual-friendly, when it was never the intention to make them that way. It's a bit unfair to judge it that way.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 1:35pm by Glitterhands
____________________________

FFXI: Siren Server: Seiowan Lvl 99 WHM, SCH, BLM
FFXIV: Ragnarok Server: Lemuria Glitterhands All Classes 50
#150 Dec 17 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
*
55 posts
i do not understand how this thread has went this long, if you do not like the new NM's then dont kill them and move on. its not that hard. not all the content they add is going to be good for everyone so it up to you to choose what things you want to do and what things to pass on. this game is new there is going to be many changes some for better than others for different people, just because this change isn't good for you dont mean jack. the way it sounds from all this is if they made it so if your logged in for a long time then you should get less stuff and if you only log on for a few hours a week then all drops should come at 100% in a way that equals out to playing 'x' amount of hours is ideal. any more and it gets harder and less and they make it easier. would that make you happy? i dont think so. i guess im just not understanding why everyone is fighting each other when there is no happy medium, either play and enjoy or dont play.
#151 Dec 17 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
elevens wrote:
i do not understand how this thread has went this long, if you do not like the new NM's then dont kill them and move on. its not that hard. not all the content they add is going to be good for everyone so it up to you to choose what things you want to do and what things to pass on. this game is new there is going to be many changes some for better than others for different people, just because this change isn't good for you dont mean jack. the way it sounds from all this is if they made it so if your logged in for a long time then you should get less stuff and if you only log on for a few hours a week then all drops should come at 100% in a way that equals out to playing 'x' amount of hours is ideal. any more and it gets harder and less and they make it easier. would that make you happy? i dont think so. i guess im just not understanding why everyone is fighting each other when there is no happy medium, either play and enjoy or dont play.


I'm sort of thinking that they had these NMs lined up for a while and it was not a big deal for them to push the new faction leves live. I'd hate to think that under current circumstances that they'd have diverted resources away from the core game to throw the minority a bone.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 17 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (17)