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SP System is Not BrokenFollow

#52 Dec 18 2010 at 11:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I see a lot of people talking about comparison to FFXI here, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amount of exp it takes to get to the next rank.

In FFXI, I remember getting roughly 200 exp a kill and being something like 40,000 to reach my next level. Now you're gaining just over 100 sp per kill and you're like 60,000 to rank up, which steeply increases the closer you get to rank 50. It's like they literally copied and pasted in the exact same exp/sp gain formula from FFXI without modifying it to fit correctly into FFXIV.

I would think most players would expect a fair return on their investment on the time they spend on gaining sp. If someone wants to grind on little mobs quickly, it should be as good sp as a player taking a long time to kill a tougher mob. As it is right now I can fight and kill an orange mob and barely survive for a paltry 130 sp or I can murder 5 blue mobs and get 75 sp each quickly and without breaking a sweat. I actually get penalized for taking the risk. Risk is exciting. I want a good return on said risk if I succeed. Right now the game actually encourages boring play.

IMO that is why I say the SP system is broken. SE probably wont fix it until PS3 release because they dont want a 95+% population of players at the cap when their "rebirth" of the game happens. That and once you reach the cap and find nothing meaningful left to do you're more likely to quit anyway and go play something else.
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#53 Dec 18 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
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Meowshi wrote:
The SP system is broken.

Just because it's broken doesn't mean you can't get SP from it.



For clarity sake: Soloing SP is perfectly fine. Leves give a very good amount of SP, especially for solos, and it's very good how you can solo to rank yourself up.

However, party SP is bugged. It's not beneficial to party, and you will actually rank up slower by partying than by soloing. This, in an MMO, is completely contradictory to what it should be, thus comes the conclusion that the SP system is broken.


100% I agree to this^

In addition to solo'ing there is a problem also. Even at blue/green mobs they're hitting the players too hard closely enough to K.O. us (i.e. Jumping digga, Elementals, Puks). It WAS good to solo because the amount of time spent on one mob builds SP on hits, but now it's a little annoying to kill the mob fast. Yes, it's awfully nice to solo and get EXP faster, but SP is slower.
#54 Dec 19 2010 at 12:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Tam Tara is the best place hands down to grind 30-40 in a party of 3+ we got 20k SP an hour there last night and a ton of new loot off goblins.

Fight EFT's and when they eventually run out go kill goblins flans and boars.

I am sure that they ninja patched the SP system the weird unbalancedness of it isnt as bottom heavy as it initialy was.
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#55HIGHTONE, Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 12:23 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) hey meowshi, way to prove you know nothing about the game and are pretty much only full of yourself and what you think. Go learn something sometime.
#56 Dec 19 2010 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Those mechanics you're talking about aren't intended to be doable I believe. There is no way in **** you can do that kind of thing on a controller. If they expect me to be locking off, locking on, switching targets and so on with a controller and the current control scheme, combat system and enmity system they are dreaming. It is impossible to AOE tank at level 28 Glad and I say that with certainty. There is no "CC" yet either, there are a few movement slows and that is it.

Sloppy combat mechanics and enmity charts do not make a challenge i'm afraid.

PS: The star system is screwed, difficulty ramps up exponentially instead of cohesively and it really is one big joke - adding to the failure that is "leves".


I respectfully disagree, having experienced and overcoming the problems myself on multi-mob encounters. I would say though, that I could never have done it if I have not leveled my subs to get the important skills.

There are ways to aoe tank, there are ways to achieve c.c. by controlling the time and space given the terrain. It just isn't straight-forward and definitely not easy to grasp; Especially if anyone have the fixed roles mold in their mind.

If you are not convinced, I will explain to you how I do it, but it would be lengthy. However, I do hope we work on facts and not let prejudice get the better of us. It is often easy to shut opinions down especially if it has been a much discussed topic, but also understand that ff14 is far from being a static system and has gone through much change, so old points may no longer be as valid as they were.

If I do not understand what it is that you hate tylerbee, please tell me, I may have missed out important details you have constantly reiterated in the past. Allow yourself to be convinced through the experiences of others, challenge their facts to strengthen your stand or abolish it; as only good things can result from such.

I have always tried to take note on the various complaints on these threads and experimented on what people lamented on to see for myself, constantly thinking if somehow, through our prejudice, we let some methods slip us by.

Not having used a controller for ff14 before, I cannot comment on your woes you have, nor can I help atm sorry.

What I do have a gripe is the amount of SP needed post 40 to 50, especially in a system that promotes having multiple jobs.

To ShockTopMagic, perhaps you can feed the community with more information on how 60k sp is achieved by your group?

#57Shezard, Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 11:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ShockTop and me gave an example of what we do...but as I said...seems like most of the community is not worth it to share the knowledge with, as everyones just bragging about the SP system while people as ShopTop and me get an easy 50k+ SP each leve reset.
#58 Dec 19 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
Wow.. I'm new to these forums but it seems like new ideas are shot down if they don't agree with popular opinions. I've seen similar trends in other threads as well..
#59 Dec 19 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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GreenJacketMafia wrote:
Wow.. I'm new to these forums but it seems like new ideas are shot down if they don't agree with popular opinions. I've seen similar trends in other threads as well..


Just because SP is obtainable does not mean it's not broken.

Lets say you can talk to an NPC and get 50k SP every 36 hours if you're in a group of three, however, when you kill any monster outside, you get 80 sp / kill solo, and 20 sp / kill partied.

Does that mean partied SP is broken? Yes. Even though you can get SP partied, that doesn't change the fact that killing monsters while partied yields less SP/hour when soloing (besides when talking to that NPC), which is absolutely a retarded and broken concept in an MMORPG.

However I do thank you guys for the information about levelinking. I'm going to try that today.
#60 Dec 19 2010 at 11:55 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
Just because SP is obtainable does not mean it's not broken.

Lets say you can talk to an NPC and get 50k SP every 36 hours if you're in a group of three, however, when you kill any monster outside, you get 80 sp / kill solo, and 20 sp / kill partied.

Does that mean partied SP is broken? Yes. Even though you can get SP partied, that doesn't change the fact that killing monsters while partied yields less SP/hour when soloing (besides when talking to that NPC), which is absolutely a retarded and broken concept in an MMORPG


Why is everyone still treating this game like it is FFXI part 2? >_<

What if this is what the Devs intended? Ever consider that?
#61 Dec 19 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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GreenJacketMafia wrote:
Quote:
Just because SP is obtainable does not mean it's not broken.

Lets say you can talk to an NPC and get 50k SP every 36 hours if you're in a group of three, however, when you kill any monster outside, you get 80 sp / kill solo, and 20 sp / kill partied.

Does that mean partied SP is broken? Yes. Even though you can get SP partied, that doesn't change the fact that killing monsters while partied yields less SP/hour when soloing (besides when talking to that NPC), which is absolutely a retarded and broken concept in an MMORPG


Why is everyone still treating this game like it is FFXI part 2? >_<

What if this is what the Devs intended? Ever consider that?


I have never played FFXI, Don't even give me that.

You're saying that the devs WANT people to solo, and that it should be the best way to rank up outside of leves? That's a very, very weird way of wanting people to rank up.

I can only assume, based off of prior patches, that SE devs want soloing to be viable, but partying to be the best way to rank up. I can assume this based off of the fact that before the november patch, Group SP was 2-3x as good as soloing, but you could still get 6-10kSP/hour by killing puks/other low rank things. This made it possible (though just as painful as now) to solo up to high ranks, but by no means was it the most efficient by a long shot.
#62 Dec 19 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Look the system is broken and you know it. Beside the fact that you get less SP from the same leves and behest you are promoting as the "way" to rank up. The biggest issue is the fanboism we have going here the more you speak up the more likely we are to see change. While you figure your way through the sp system and claim its not broken others will simply quit the game. If this was the change you seriously wanted I could understand the adamant defense of this system but in this case we didn't ask for this just standardized sp because some classes were simply getting much more than others. Argue how you may about how you have figured it out when the pops down to 10k you'll wonder why the **** you would want to go against the wave on this one. The funniest thing is if they change it the resulting change works to EVERYONES benefit. So yes its broken if we say its broken its broken if we see our sp drop its broken but most of all adding in endgame content then making harder to level is not only an insult to us as the players but also a slap in the face considering what those of us who are still here have dealt with. Sometimes you got to stop loving SE to the point that you forget your a customer. If they do wrong call em out on it before its too late.
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#63 Dec 19 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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All this talk about how party leves proves SP is not broken....

SE has stated repeatedly Leves were introduced to give the casual gamer a way to level up w/o looking for a party, and that's why they put an 8 leve/36 hour limit cap on it.
It can be reasonably assumed that there WERE supposed to be mechanics for party grinding.

Sooooo...
The reasoning behind saying the SP rate isn't broken is by presenting the idea of using a system designed for solo players in a totally different way...
When you have to manipulate the mechanics to get around something not working right, that's called broken.

SE changed the SP system, and did it during a period where EVERYTHING was screwed up. If you've ever played XI you know their "adjustments" usually go like this:
"Fix" - refix what they broke with the "fix" that wasn't related to the "fix" - adjust the "fix" - state that the "fix" is now working as intended - wait a month and ninja adjust the "fix" - give up and leave it as last adjusted and let the players figure out how to get around the problem, or just do something else.

It's more likely than not SP is broken and will be adjusted. Christ EXP was a work in progress for 5 years on XI, and you think they have it right in THIS game in the first 3 months?
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#64 Dec 19 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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renmabiao wrote:
Quote:
Those mechanics you're talking about aren't intended to be doable I believe. There is no way in **** you can do that kind of thing on a controller. If they expect me to be locking off, locking on, switching targets and so on with a controller and the current control scheme, combat system and enmity system they are dreaming. It is impossible to AOE tank at level 28 Glad and I say that with certainty. There is no "CC" yet either, there are a few movement slows and that is it.

Sloppy combat mechanics and enmity charts do not make a challenge i'm afraid.

PS: The star system is screwed, difficulty ramps up exponentially instead of cohesively and it really is one big joke - adding to the failure that is "leves".


I respectfully disagree, having experienced and overcoming the problems myself on multi-mob encounters. I would say though, that I could never have done it if I have not leveled my subs to get the important skills.

There are ways to aoe tank, there are ways to achieve c.c. by controlling the time and space given the terrain. It just isn't straight-forward and definitely not easy to grasp; Especially if anyone have the fixed roles mold in their mind.

If you are not convinced, I will explain to you how I do it, but it would be lengthy. However, I do hope we work on facts and not let prejudice get the better of us. It is often easy to shut opinions down especially if it has been a much discussed topic, but also understand that ff14 is far from being a static system and has gone through much change, so old points may no longer be as valid as they were.

If I do not understand what it is that you hate tylerbee, please tell me, I may have missed out important details you have constantly reiterated in the past. Allow yourself to be convinced through the experiences of others, challenge their facts to strengthen your stand or abolish it; as only good things can result from such.

I have always tried to take note on the various complaints on these threads and experimented on what people lamented on to see for myself, constantly thinking if somehow, through our prejudice, we let some methods slip us by.

Not having used a controller for ff14 before, I cannot comment on your woes you have, nor can I help atm sorry.

What I do have a gripe is the amount of SP needed post 40 to 50, especially in a system that promotes having multiple jobs.

To ShockTopMagic, perhaps you can feed the community with more information on how 60k sp is achieved by your group?



You try using a controller to do your fancy moves then come back to me. Whatever special way you and your buddies have figured out to complete leves with a high star rating while you're low level is something not everyone can accomplish, so is not intended gameplay. I will say it again, AOE tanking is impossible right now even with the right jobs and CC is non existant. Please stop trying to make this hollow combat system sound and seem more spectacular than the pile of unrefined rubbish that it really is.

Also about leves. They need a crapload of work, so so much work to make them even mildly enjoyable. I prefer party grinding for SP on tough mobs over leves, because all leves are is:

a) Zerg easy mobs
b) No strategy
c) More of that delightful running SE likes to make us all do

Please don't try and tell me to do it on a higher star level as well please, unless you expect me to find two other tanks to tank any adds because AOE tanking is not viable. If there were ways, i'd know them. I'm an MMO veteran and raider for over ten years now and this game has the simplest and most boring combat system i've ever experienced.



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#65 Dec 19 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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I think its just sad, cause there are ways to get good SP at 30+, but people just brag and don't bother testing any sh*t...


I don't think anyone's arguing this point with you, people think leve SP income is great, its SP outside of leves that isn't and frankly I think at the very least some of us (don't want to do/got sick of doing) leves and would like an alternative to leveling. Plus, on a more important note, I don't think you know the meaning of the word brag :P.
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#66 Dec 19 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Leves are challenging if you do higher difficulty ones, but there is no incentive to do it on higher difficulty b/c the SP gains don't justify the extra time it takes for the most part =/

Also, soloing is not more efficient than leve-linking, unless you haved a coblyn camp all to yourself, and even then, I think leve-linking is better. You have to have 3 or 4 ppl leve link and get guardian aspect to maximize your SP. At lvl 32, you can 5 star rk 20 leves for great SP as long as you leve link.

But that's not all, some leves provide more SP than others. If you don't care about faction points, you should purposely fail leve-linked leves like Necrologos: Levinshower, so you can do it again every 36 hours and tell your leve-link partners to do the same.

This game will reward a leve static group, just most ppl don't do it b/c it may be an inconvenience to coordinate.

The point is, you have to get your LS mates to abandon the good SP leves.

Here is a list of good SP leves I compiled from Bluegartr's forums.
These are leves where you can kill a bunch of stuff and force failure at the end to get it again next day.

R20
Escape From Cell B17 (Limsa)
The Devilet Inside (Uldah)
Leaders of the Pack (Grid)

R30
Necrologos: Adamantine Wills (Nanawa Mines)
Necrologos: Inferno (Cassiopeia Hollows)
Necrologos: Lightsome Verdure (Cedarwood)
Necrologos: The Moon's Mistress (Mun-tay)
Necrologos: Thousand Fold Agony (Humblehearth)


R40
Necrologos: Ranine Reveries (Broken Water)

I'm not rk 40 leve lvl yet but if you higher ups could please contribute to this list, we can all level up faster together. SE just needs to increase the reward for difficult leves double so it's worth doing 5 star everytime.
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#67 Dec 19 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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So we go from massive parties fighting mobs vastly over the rank of the party members, telling people not to use TP moves and don't invite archers and stand where you're going to soak the maximum possible damage so the healers can get SP yadda yadda yadda to stocking up on leves and failing them on purpose towards the end so that you've always got the "best" leves every reset.

I've gotta say, any game tuned so that doing things "wrong" is always the best way to progress is in serious trouble.
#68 Dec 19 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
So we go from massive parties fighting mobs vastly over the rank of the party members, telling people not to use TP moves and don't invite archers and stand where you're going to soak the maximum possible damage so the healers can get SP yadda yadda yadda to stocking up on leves and failing them on purpose towards the end so that you've always got the "best" leves every reset.

I've gotta say, any game tuned so that doing things "wrong" is always the best way to progress is in serious trouble.


People are always going to find the most efficient way to get exp/SP, and if it's easy enough it will become the "norm" regardless of what the developers intended. This is not new to FFXIV and certainly doesn't mean it is in "serious trouble". FFXI saw many different types of "burn" parties, none of which SE intended, many were fixed, and FFXI survived.

The old dev team clearly didn't know what they wanted to do with SP parties. It's obvious SP has been "tuned" to the solo player. Hopefully the new dev team will fix party SP since it's clear that the majority of people enjoy partying. But don't claim that SE intends us to forfeit leves or spam "easy preys". I just think the old dev team honestly didn't expect/want partying at the scale of FFXI.
#69 Dec 19 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
So we go from massive parties fighting mobs vastly over the rank of the party members, telling people not to use TP moves and don't invite archers and stand where you're going to soak the maximum possible damage so the healers can get SP yadda yadda yadda to stocking up on leves and failing them on purpose towards the end so that you've always got the "best" leves every reset.

I've gotta say, any game tuned so that doing things "wrong" is always the best way to progress is in serious trouble.


People are always going to find the most efficient way to get exp/SP, and if it's easy enough it will become the "norm" regardless of what the developers intended. This is not new to FFXIV and certainly doesn't mean it is in "serious trouble". FFXI saw many different types of "burn" parties, none of which SE intended, many were fixed, and FFXI survived.

The old dev team clearly didn't know what they wanted to do with SP parties. It's obvious SP has been "tuned" to the solo player. Hopefully the new dev team will fix party SP since it's clear that the majority of people enjoy partying. But don't claim that SE intends us to forfeit leves or spam "easy preys". I just think the old dev team honestly didn't expect/want partying at the scale of FFXI.


SP wasn't tuned to the solo player. It wasn't tuned to any player. The best SP to be had pre-Nov patch was in the largest groups you could string together and solo players were quick to point out that the rate of SP earned post-20 was terrible.

And you're right, doing things "wrong" becoming the norm is not something exclusive to XIV...as you pointed out, it happened in XI as well. It tends not to happen in the PvE end of things in other games. In quest driven games...which is what XIV could/should have been but wasn't...there's still going to be a "norm", but it never involves doing things "wrong" on purpose or failing on purpose just to get the fastest progression. If you look at games that are quest driven, typically strategies involve going to a hub and picking up all of the quests you can. Kill everything on your way to where you need to be to do the quests. Kill everything at your hunting grounds. Kill everything on your way back. In other words, play the game. Kill stuff. Do stuff. Accomplish stuff. Repeat. Sometimes, depending on how the game is tuned, the best method is to gather up all of the quests you can and then kill selectively. Kill what you need to, leave what you don't. Kill stuff. Do stuff. Accomplish stuff. Play the game.

XIV? First it was form party, kill stuff as slowly as you can with your weakest attacks while taking the most possible damage without dying. Now, it's starting to shape up like gather leves, kill most of the stuff but leave one mob and fail the leve so that you'll be able to do it over again at the reset.

I never said this is what SE intended and people not paying attention and putting words in my mouth are once again starting to get on my last nerve so pay attention, would ya sport? The point is that this is NOT what SE intended but because the FFXIV dev team under Tanaka apparently didn't have a ******* clue about how to tune an MMO, this is what we've got...a system where doing things "wrong" presents the best rewards. Only this time I'm not blaming the players for doing it "wrong" because their objective is to progress as fast as possible. And that means that whatever grants them the best SP is the "right" way to do it, even if it involves subtle abuse of game mechanics.
#70 Dec 19 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
I never said this is what SE intended and people not paying attention and putting words in my mouth are once again starting to get on my last nerve so pay attention, would ya sport? The point is that this is NOT what SE intended but because the FFXIV dev team under Tanaka apparently didn't have a @#%^ing clue about how to tune an MMO, this is what we've got...a system where doing things "wrong" presents the best rewards. Only this time I'm not blaming the players for doing it "wrong" because their objective is to progress as fast as possible. And that means that whatever grants them the best SP is the "right" way to do it, even if it involves subtle abuse of game mechanics.


You're very quick to play the "don't put words in my mouth" card. Let's take another look at what you said:

Quote:

I've gotta say, any game tuned so that doing things "wrong" is always the best way to progress is in serious trouble.


This is a passive sentence, meaning the subject (The person doing the "tuning") is assumed. Since only the developer can tune an MMO by changing the code, it's assumed that you meant SE "tuned" FFXIV to be done "wrong". If this is not so, then who exactly is tuning FFXIV in your mind, sport?

We both agree that Tanaka's dev team didn't know what they were doing. We're on the same side here. Don't jump down peoples' throats on a video game forum. It's not good for your health.
#71 Dec 19 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:


This is a passive sentence, meaning the subject (The person doing the "tuning") is assumed. Since only the developer can tune an MMO by changing the code, it's assumed that you meant SE "tuned" FFXIV to be done "wrong". If this is not so, then who exactly is tuning FFXIV in your mind, sport?


No, and don't assume, because when you assume, you make an *** out of u.

It means that SE tuned the game wrong, not that they tuned it so that players would do things "wrong" on purpose. Smarten up.
#72 Dec 19 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Regardless, I would hope party mechanics (not just SP gain) are one of the top priorities of the new dev team. SE has shown that they're very knowledgeable about the players' gripes and this is one of the biggest ones. Right now we're still playing the old dev team's game. Why don't we wait and see how the new team handles it before we go off declaring the game "in serious trouble"? The whole point to assigning a new team was to change the course of the game, right?

Yeah, it sucks that they've changed the SP system entirely already and it still needs significant tweaks. I'm sure the details will be in patch notes when it's changed so if the game is broken in your eyes take a break until it's fixed. I guess I just don't see how bickering about a playing a game you don't enjoy is fun for anyone. I'm enjoying many other parts of the game and when parties are fixed I'll go back to partying.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 5:58pm by Hydragyrum
#73 Dec 19 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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Look no matter how many post I read I simply do not understand how so many of us who stuck around are saying the same thing that was said many months ago so adamantly defending the game to the point that I fear your blindness will not go away. We are all fans at least i think so because I cant think of another reason stick around if your not. If some says a game with less than 30k logging in that isn't even charging yet is in "serious trouble" they are factually correct. Ignoring the gaping wounds because you are tough your hardcore and you can take does not mean you wont bleed to death. This games has holes plain and simple. SP is one of them. Gaming the system by failing leves literally makes no sense. You as a paying customer have every right to demand a change and SE has no good reason not to listen. Since so many of you are veterans I know you know and I know dropping leves is an exploit. Not that using exploits are devastatingly wrong but it is inherently wrong. I believe our only hope is that we yell at SE loud enough that they place this at the top of the quick fix ladder.

Sometimes as a community of gamers we need to put aside the "look how much SP I am getting." and realize there are not enough players playing the game to brag that too. There aren't enough players to keep the game afloat even if they were charging. Whether you feel they are b*tchy little children or not those player who quit you need them to come back. SE is a business and if a failed product keeps on failing it will be scrapped. At times like this we our lil community need to cut the bs and let SE know whats needs to be done because sooner or later we will go from a few of us playing to not playing at all and if you say it wont happen heres the short list : http://www.mmorpgate.com/2008/08/mmorpgs-that-failed-and-why.htmlhttp://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/zergwatch/122008/2962_The-Top-10-MMORPG-failures-of-all-time

In another post i said that i feel sometimes we just have to go along with the Dev team this however is not one of those times.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 7:30pm by mainvein
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#74 Dec 19 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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reptiletim wrote:
I see a lot of people talking about comparison to FFXI here, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned the amount of exp it takes to get to the next rank.

In FFXI, I remember getting roughly 200 exp a kill and being something like 40,000 to reach my next level. Now you're gaining just over 100 sp per kill and you're like 60,000 to rank up, which steeply increases the closer you get to rank 50. It's like they literally copied and pasted in the exact same exp/sp gain formula from FFXI without modifying it to fit correctly into FFXIV.

I would think most players would expect a fair return on their investment on the time they spend on gaining sp. If someone wants to grind on little mobs quickly, it should be as good sp as a player taking a long time to kill a tougher mob. As it is right now I can fight and kill an orange mob and barely survive for a paltry 130 sp or I can murder 5 blue mobs and get 75 sp each quickly and without breaking a sweat. I actually get penalized for taking the risk. Risk is exciting. I want a good return on said risk if I succeed. Right now the game actually encourages boring play.

IMO that is why I say the SP system is broken. SE probably wont fix it until PS3 release because they dont want a 95+% population of players at the cap when their "rebirth" of the game happens. That and once you reach the cap and find nothing meaningful left to do you're more likely to quit anyway and go play something else.


FFXI was actually ~7,000 TNL from 40-50. XIV is ~85,000 from 40-50. XIV's TNL's are still designed and based around getting 300-500SP/Kill and 20-25k an hour, it's as simple as that.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 7:48pm by Furia
#75 Dec 19 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Regardless, I would hope party mechanics (not just SP gain) are one of the top priorities of the new dev team. SE has shown that they're very knowledgeable about the players' gripes and this is one of the biggest ones. Right now we're still playing the old dev team's game. Why don't we wait and see how the new team handles it before we go off declaring the game "in serious trouble"? The whole point to assigning a new team was to change the course of the game, right?

Yeah, it sucks that they've changed the SP system entirely already and it still needs significant tweaks. I'm sure the details will be in patch notes when it's changed so if the game is broken in your eyes take a break until it's fixed. I guess I just don't see how bickering about a playing a game you don't enjoy is fun for anyone. I'm enjoying many other parts of the game and when parties are fixed I'll go back to partying.


I enjoy certain aspects of the game. I am, however, also growing a bit worn out by the rollercoaster. For three months now it's been a "not bad, but needs improvement" sort of scenario for me and the longer it takes Yoshida to step forward with his own spin on what's going on in the near and distant future, the more likely I'll be to start looking around in earnest to see what's around the corner.
#76Nutbar, Posted: Dec 19 2010 at 7:06 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I've read all of the posts in this thread and should just say now that, personally, I think the SP system makes more sense now than it did before the November update, but it still has a gaping hole in that the SP rewards seem woefully small for anything you do, and I think this extends to leves to an extent as well as to exp. gain outside of leves. I know that the game is an MMO and the level process for these games is typically protracted, but the extent in this game is insane.
#77 Dec 19 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You try using a controller to do your fancy moves then come back to me. Whatever special way you and your buddies have figured out to complete leves with a high star rating while you're low level is something not everyone can accomplish, so is not intended gameplay. I will say it again, AOE tanking is impossible right now even with the right jobs and CC is non existant. Please stop trying to make this hollow combat system sound and seem more spectacular than the pile of unrefined rubbish that it really is.

Also about leves. They need a crapload of work, so so much work to make them even mildly enjoyable. I prefer party grinding for SP on tough mobs over leves, because all leves are is:

a) Zerg easy mobs
b) No strategy
c) More of that delightful running SE likes to make us all do

Please don't try and tell me to do it on a higher star level as well please, unless you expect me to find two other tanks to tank any adds because AOE tanking is not viable. If there were ways, i'd know them. I'm an MMO veteran and raider for over ten years now and this game has the simplest and most boring combat system i've ever experienced.


Ahhhh, no need to feel insulted tylerbee. It is difficult to get to what you're saying with all that color.

You don't sound like you even want to hear the solution my group has come up with nor do you want to be convinced. We all ask for this utopian MMO that... doesn't exist anywhere, we ask for something new and yet, some cling on to old methods, it is no good.

Did I make trash sound spectacular? I only say what I feel heh.

For an MMO veteran, why do you want a simplified solution of fighting 1 mob a time conveyor belt system? Old puller, tank, DD, healer.

The computer AI for ff14 is simple from my observations, it goes for what it can perceive to hurt most. Normally your lowest level, weakest or dangerous party member, 'normally' not the tank unless 'something is done'. that's what I'd do if I were the mob~ I think that's smart.

What I do as a tank is no miracle solution or anything, 1 short example of many: I just use skills from my sub, sometimes as simple as cure tanking with stygian spikes, firm conviction, using provoke and taunt on 1 mob while putting on outmaneuver and circle slash ws whilst my pt moves and bursts down 1 of 3 mobs. It isn't true 'AOE' tanking but, let's get to that next time. ;D The description will have much to scrutinize without lengthy explanations.

Again tylerbee, out of respect I will say that we should vent, but we shouldn't blind ourselves from facing facts that others brought to us. They bring us a hopeful perspective, we should try before we dowse it. I have tried and paid my dues to post and comment here. Witch burning will not help and will only fuel unfounded hate amongst fools choosing to listen to them without trying for themselves. Nobody will post helpful tips under such conditions. I have digressed from the original topic with you for good intentions.

If I were to mention my MMO experience in top end raiding is longer than yours... Will it convince you of the points I make here? no. I don't think so. You'd probably mock my ability & preferences in MMOs, question the validity of my credentials instead of judging the post for its content.

I will end here unless you have a curious need to share and develop knowledge, (pm me even), I prefer to debate towards a general and developed understanding. I would not want to incur your wrath further he he.

#78 Dec 19 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Good
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renmabiao wrote:
Quote:
Keep dreaming champ. Leves are boring and combat doesn't hold a candle to old XI.


I disagree with your opinion. Having read most of the posts here, people just want to kill something hard AND get appropriate SP for it. They want something close to ff11.

ff14 changes the difficulty to a mini objective of clearing semi-difficult mob groups in an area, suddenly its boring? It rewards you for increasing the difficulty of the leve comparatively to your level. Instead of the target being 1 big Incredibly Tough monster, it becomes 1 Incredibly Tough Leve objective with timers put in it.

Killing 1 big monster at a time is very easy and it forces all players in the party into fixed roles. Killing multiple monsters with a party is harder, because the roles jumble up, crowd control becomes difficult, having a good selection of emergency abilities become important, team work and coordination is crucial.

e.g. My party of lvl 27s (gla, arc, con, pgl) try a 4star leve at nophica wells killing gnats. Trying to position so the lightning bolt don't skewer more than 1 person, preventing them from casting shock spikes, etc. is quite challenging to me.


Quote:
And the only reason you don't fall asleep in FFXIV is because you are constantly mashing 1 over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.


msconduct I'd like you to show me an example where this is the case if you'd care to. The statement is not true for leves.

That might be the case if you over level the leve. Again I'd like to ask if you ever tried a leve that is slightly above our level range and 3-5stars. (e.g. doing a 4-5star lvl 20 leve as a lvl 21-23)

As a tank I'll tell you it isn't that easy to keep aggro on 3 monsters that kills party members in 3-5 hits, and definitely not 1 button mashing.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that the leves reset every 36hrs and (e.g. clearing 4-6 leves in 1 area and 2-3 behests) can easily take up 1 evening (will be faster if your group is already a cohesive team.) approximately 2.5-4hrs. getting you close to 50kish sp, more if you're good at it.

Every 36hrs, take away sleep time of 10hrs... that is 20+% of your waking hours in 36hrs to get 50k sp in a semi-challenging way. Yes, I agree sp system can be improved in different ways out of leves, but what is broken about it now through a leve system other than the fact it does not allow players to be overly hardcore?




I don't think anyone is complaining much about the SP system in leve or behest. The complaint about the SP system is clearly about the SP granted outside of leve and behest.

You yourself chooses to push for higher star leve (harder difficulty) to gain more SP, even though it may take longer to setup and is more challenging. That is exactly what the people are asking for! We want proportional SP granted when we fight harder monsters outside of leve and behest.



Baxtergourme wrote:
Honestly, subscriptions are down. Imagine how behests, and camps would look if the game was booming? Only 15 people to a behest. That and leves should not be the only option. I'm not saying its not amazing sp, but I just cannot understand why people think there should be just one way of leveling. I say allow party grinds, and for the people who want to do leve/behest allow that too. What would be the horror in having both? This would alleviate a lot of congestion, and partying issues with behests.


I've been doing R20 behest pretty frequently lately, and find there are new players in almost every behest (every hour). Unless these people never learn, there is a lot of new people coming into the game it seems. I'm surprised how most of these R15+ players got their ranks and not know that killing unclaimed monster gives no SP and less than 100% HP when claimed gains gimped SP.

It seems impossible to tell people not to use offensive AOE and don't hit unclaimed monsters. We don't have proper translations to tell the non English players. Our chat logs, by default, is so terrible, in a 15 man fight most people cannot read the party chat or tells, because it scrolls so fast. I have tested it, I spammed, in pink tells, to several English players to stop hitting that unclaimed monster and they can totally miss it.

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#80 Dec 19 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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I would really like to see the SP system not be compared to FFXI's exp system. I'm hoping for a complete change, and some innovation in gameplay to get away from the 'grind mobs' attitude so many players seem to have on these boards.

I played XI for a while, and i liked the party xp system, but when it comes to XIV i think a lot of old XI players are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. The party/team based play are different enough from XI's that i don't think the original intent was to grind on enemies for leveling up, and figure out optimal SP rates.

The original design of SP being based off skill use and not kill rate is a huge example of what the dev (old) team was trying to do.

I think the intention of the original dev team was to have players just play, and not focus too much attention on SP rates. They hoped that the game would have been fun enough to just enjoy, and not have the players get wrapped around SP/hr rates (because of the old skill use based sp gain system), and optimal party performance (the way classes are not very well defined).

SE missed the mark.

I think the original intent was to have players level primarily through leves, in groups. However, the limitations on leves (36 hr cooldown) discourages party play. If there were separate 'party only' leves, that had no limits, then we would see many more people forming parties and leveling off of those.

Honestly, i don't like forming parties for leves, because it feels like it takes longer to actually form and meet up to do a leve together. The party system is clunky, and with a finite amount of party oriented content, there is very little incentive to make a party. And i really want to see more group oriented play happen.

When you lift the limit on leves, you suddenly allow people to come and go as they please in a party. Anyone can join in the content at any time, and you will never run out. It's as if the game were built for this feature... Your party finishes a leve, you return back to the crystal, see someone else wants to join a party, invite them and head off for the next leve.


I don't know, as much as i liked XI, i guess i would just like to see something new in this game. Something that is not optimal SP/hr grindfest leveling.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 11:14pm by ZoosRfun
#81 Dec 19 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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ZoosRfun wrote:
I would really like to see the SP system not be compared to FFXI's exp system. I'm hoping for a complete change, and some innovation in gameplay to get away from the 'grind mobs' attitude so many players seem to have on these boards.

I played XI for a while, and i liked the party xp system, but when it comes to XIV i think a lot of old XI players are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. The party/team based play are different enough from XI's that i don't think the original intent was to grind on enemies for leveling up, and figure out optimal SP rates.

The original design of SP being based off skill use and not kill rate is a huge example of what the dev (old) team was trying to do.

I think the intention of the original dev team was to have players just play, and not focus too much attention on SP rates. They hoped that the game would have been fun enough to just enjoy, and not have the players get wrapped around SP/hr rates (because of the old skill use based sp gain system), and optimal party performance (the way classes are not very well defined).

SE missed the mark.

I think the original intent was to have players level primarily through leves, in groups. However, the limitations on leves (36 hr cooldown) discourages party play. If there were separate 'party only' leves, that had no limits, then we would see many more people forming parties and leveling off of those.

Honestly, i don't like forming parties for leves, because it feels like it takes longer to actually form and meet up to do a leve together. The party system is clunky, and with a finite amount of party oriented content, there is very little incentive to make a party. And i really want to see more group oriented play happen.

When you lift the limit on leves, you suddenly allow people to come and go as they please in a party. Anyone can join in the content at any time, and you will never run out. It's as if the game were built for this feature... Your party finishes a leve, you return back to the crystal, see someone else wants to join a party, invite them and head off for the next leve.


I don't know, as much as i liked XI, i guess i would just like to see something new in this game. Something that is not optimal SP/hr grindfest leveling.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 11:14pm by ZoosRfun


It's always the Dev's intention to make us grind to rank/level up for, otherwise it would be too easy and people would have nothing to do. Especially in this game, there is nothing to do but grind.

From what I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, SE has said it themselves, leve were for the casual players to gain SP. Casual players can skill up in leve anytime / efficiently and be spared the party making, camp searching trouble in FFXI.

Leve is limited, the hardcore players with more time would find other ways to grind SP, in parties outside of leve. SE wanted to make it possible to have many different ways to SP. So far we have party grind, leve, behest.

What some of us want, that love the FFXI system is an additional method of SP to the party grind. Giving proportional
SP gain on tougher monster doesn't hurt anyone in any of those SP methods. People who like to zerg blue monsters can still do it, there is no affect on that. But it gives an option to those who want SP a more challenging fight to do so.
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#82 Dec 19 2010 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
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Bozmo wrote:


It's always the Dev's intention to make us grind to rank/level up for, otherwise it would be too easy and people would have nothing to do. Especially in this game, there is nothing to do but grind.


Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean grind for exp XI style? Because there are already other alternatives to exp grind in the game, just not infinite grind besides random mobs. If you adjust what is already in place, you could easily have alternative exp methods that don't involve random mob grinding.

Bozmo wrote:

From what I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, SE has said it themselves, leve were for the casual players to gain SP. Casual players can skill up in leve anytime / efficiently and be spared the party making, camp searching trouble in FFXI.

Leve is limited, the hardcore players with more time would find other ways to grind SP, in parties outside of leve. SE wanted to make it possible to have many different ways to SP. So far we have party grind, leve, behest.

What some of us want, that love the FFXI system is an additional method of SP to the party grind. Giving proportional
SP gain on tougher monster doesn't hurt anyone in any of those SP methods. People who like to zerg blue monsters can still do it, there is no affect on that. But it gives an option to those who want SP a more challenging fight to do so.


Totally understand what you are saying. And i agree completely with some points. I want a different method of SP gain also. The leve system is perfect for that. It can easily be tweaked to offer more thought provoking combat.

There's no rule that says leves have to involve blue mobs that die in 5 seconds. They could easily add "party leves" that would be tuned to offer greater SP rewards for more challenging fights. However if there is a limit on them, they will never be a serious alternative to grinding on mobs.

Mobs have an infinite respawn rate, which makes them so attractive to the grinding crowd. If leves or any other alternative doesn't offer the same, then they will never be seen as exp worthy.


Behest seems silly to me. I like doing it, but don't like that it's limited to once per hour.
You form this up to 15 man group, to go kill monsters for 10 minutes. Then everyone drops group.

What if there was an ongoing behest? Just allow players to cycle through behest mobs and bosses. It's essentially the exp grind, but in disguise. Players could join and drop as they want.


I consider myself casual. But that doesn't mean i want solo play all the time. I want group play, but definitely don't want to go back to XI's party system/grind. It just doesn't feel the same in this game. I like leves, but i want to form a group and not have to quit the group because everyones out of leves, or because it's not the top of the hour. There's just too many constraints on party content right now that's keeping me from enjoying this game.
#83 Dec 20 2010 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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renmabiao wrote:
Quote:
You try using a controller to do your fancy moves then come back to me. Whatever special way you and your buddies have figured out to complete leves with a high star rating while you're low level is something not everyone can accomplish, so is not intended gameplay. I will say it again, AOE tanking is impossible right now even with the right jobs and CC is non existant. Please stop trying to make this hollow combat system sound and seem more spectacular than the pile of unrefined rubbish that it really is.

Also about leves. They need a crapload of work, so so much work to make them even mildly enjoyable. I prefer party grinding for SP on tough mobs over leves, because all leves are is:

a) Zerg easy mobs
b) No strategy
c) More of that delightful running SE likes to make us all do

Please don't try and tell me to do it on a higher star level as well please, unless you expect me to find two other tanks to tank any adds because AOE tanking is not viable. If there were ways, i'd know them. I'm an MMO veteran and raider for over ten years now and this game has the simplest and most boring combat system i've ever experienced.


Ahhhh, no need to feel insulted tylerbee. It is difficult to get to what you're saying with all that color.

You don't sound like you even want to hear the solution my group has come up with nor do you want to be convinced. We all ask for this utopian MMO that... doesn't exist anywhere, we ask for something new and yet, some cling on to old methods, it is no good.

Did I make trash sound spectacular? I only say what I feel heh.

For an MMO veteran, why do you want a simplified solution of fighting 1 mob a time conveyor belt system? Old puller, tank, DD, healer.

The computer AI for ff14 is simple from my observations, it goes for what it can perceive to hurt most. Normally your lowest level, weakest or dangerous party member, 'normally' not the tank unless 'something is done'. that's what I'd do if I were the mob~ I think that's smart.

What I do as a tank is no miracle solution or anything, 1 short example of many: I just use skills from my sub, sometimes as simple as cure tanking with stygian spikes, firm conviction, using provoke and taunt on 1 mob while putting on outmaneuver and circle slash ws whilst my pt moves and bursts down 1 of 3 mobs. It isn't true 'AOE' tanking but, let's get to that next time. ;D The description will have much to scrutinize without lengthy explanations.

Again tylerbee, out of respect I will say that we should vent, but we shouldn't blind ourselves from facing facts that others brought to us. They bring us a hopeful perspective, we should try before we dowse it. I have tried and paid my dues to post and comment here. Witch burning will not help and will only fuel unfounded hate amongst fools choosing to listen to them without trying for themselves. Nobody will post helpful tips under such conditions. I have digressed from the original topic with you for good intentions.

If I were to mention my MMO experience in top end raiding is longer than yours... Will it convince you of the points I make here? no. I don't think so. You'd probably mock my ability & preferences in MMOs, question the validity of my credentials instead of judging the post for its content.

I will end here unless you have a curious need to share and develop knowledge, (pm me even), I prefer to debate towards a general and developed understanding. I would not want to incur your wrath further he he.



I respect you for making the most of it and trying your best to enjoy the system in its current incarnation and apologize for sounding like a jerk but to me it just seems not worth playing at the moment due to the combat system and SP rewards.

I basically hung on doing crafting and gathering with a small amount of party grinding on the side when it was first released, waiting for an SP and combat fix. Then the "SP fix" came and I felt no need to level my DOW up at all so stuck to purely crafting. I got sick of waiting for a fix, even with all the nice new UI changes, which are awesome, the main draw of the game is broken in my perspective which is combat.

I really hope I can come back in a years time and enjoy the game, but by then Diablo 3 will be out so I guess its kind of futile because I know that game will be great out of the box.

Thanks for offering to enlighten me on what you're doing to make the game worthwhile but i've just lost interest...
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#84 Dec 20 2010 at 1:53 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Thanks for offering to enlighten me on what you're doing to make the game worthwhile but i've just lost interest...


Always saddening to know its too little too late. When it gets to that point, it'll take triple the effort to bring the player back. I do think there would be many non-mmos out there to last you to d3 though :D. You'd be surprised how many good games stack up when you commit yourself to an mmo. (which incidentally is how i feel mmos lose out in this current environment of flooding good games.)

Anyways, back to the sp system. I would agree non-leve sp system needs a scale up. However, should players commit more time in 36hrs to lvl past the time taken for 8 leves and... 3 behests?

bring back skillchains, man I love that mechanic xD, takes my mind off the grind.

Makes me think, do gamers look for a never-ending story of an mmorpg these days?

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 3:02am by renmabiao
#85 Dec 20 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Good
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All right, at the risk of sounding really in the dark here, can someone explain what exactly is meant by leve linking, and what is the SP advantage of doing this? I'm not sure I've ever done this. Do you mean a group, all having the same leve, and each activating at the same time? If so, how does that improve SP?

Often I've helped other LS friends do leve's and, obviously, I get SP in doing so, but nothing earth-shattering.
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#86 Dec 20 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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ZoosRfun wrote:

I think the intention of the original dev team was to have players just play, and not focus too much attention on SP rates. They hoped that the game would have been fun enough to just enjoy, and not have the players get wrapped around SP/hr rates (because of the old skill use based sp gain system), and optimal party performance (the way classes are not very well defined).

This is the kind of head in the clouds thinking that got us retainer wards. Of course the players are going to optimize SP/h! You'd have to be pretty **** delusional to expect anything less. Especially the more hardcore crowd are analytical beings, not bumbling fools who don't understand what's going on on the screen. Even if they hid SP gains completely, the players would eventually figure it out just like they cracked the damage formula of FFXI. The dev team must have been incredibly out of touch with their players.

tsumarione wrote:
All right, at the risk of sounding really in the dark here, can someone explain what exactly is meant by leve linking, and what is the SP advantage of doing this? I'm not sure I've ever done this. Do you mean a group, all having the same leve, and each activating at the same time? If so, how does that improve SP?

Often I've helped other LS friends do leve's and, obviously, I get SP in doing so, but nothing earth-shattering.

You can link leves that multiple players in the group have. The leve will complete for everyone simultaneously, so you can only do it once, but you get an SP bonus that increases with every link. If you further multiply this with Guardian Aspect, you can get a pretty high multiplier on SP, which is why leves with tons of mobs (the ones where mobs drop necrologos pages) can award huge amounts of total SP.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 8:45am by Omena
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#87 Dec 20 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:

This is the kind of head in the clouds thinking that got us retainer wards. Of course the players are going to optimize SP/h! You'd have to be pretty **** delusional to expect anything less. Especially the more hardcore crowd are analytical beings, not bumbling fools who don't understand what's going on on the screen. Even if they hid SP gains completely, the players would eventually figure it out just like they cracked the damage formula of FFXI. The dev team must have been incredibly out of touch with their players.


I see what you're saying, but i disagree. There are plenty of games where i play and don't count my xp/hr or track my progress tnl. I just play to play, because it's fun. In fact, I think that XI was the first and only game where i kept track of my xp/hr rate... I kind of liked it, but it worked in that game, and only that game. I don't think that maximum exp/hr efficiency is a necessary staple in MMOs the same way a functioning economy is.
#88 Dec 20 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
[quote=ZoosRfun]

You can link leves that multiple players in the group have. The leve will complete for everyone simultaneously, so you can only do it once, but you get an SP bonus that increases with every link. If you further multiply this with Guardian Aspect, you can get a pretty high multiplier on SP, which is why leves with tons of mobs (the ones where mobs drop necrologos pages) can award huge amounts of total SP.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 8:45am by Omena


QFT. Triple linked a Necrolog leve in Nanawa Mines yesterday with guardian aspect and got 540sp/kill. Was absolutely blown away by this. Ended up getting 4k off of that single leve.

The SP system is defintiely not broken when it comes to leves and behest. Averaged over 25k/hour with a party of 6 just grinding through leves and behests at two camps.

However, outside of leves and behest, the SP system leaves much to be desired. And right now there is very little incentive to put together a party to level off non-leve based mobs. Also they still need to fix the **** AoE partial SP issue.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 10:45am by lightacadi
#89 Dec 20 2010 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
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I expect a fix for this soon, maybe in the next month at the very least I expect an announcement about this issue and how they plan to fix it. Remember they basically scraped a system where you gained sp on actions rather then a per mob difficulty. It takes time to re-build the system from scratch. We are playing in their extended beta test where we get to keep our progress. If you really hate the party play then don't do it. Try to lvl up subs since 1-20 if definitely broken(sp is too easy to get).
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#90 Dec 20 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
I think it's hilarious how some people are saying it's fine when they're actually "gaming the system" by abandoning before success and only get good results on leves with broken drop rates, anyway. So, the only way to get decent SP is to abuse loopholes in the system and that's perfectly fine and people need to stop complaining? You can't even realistically keep this up without a static group, so what the ****? How can you say this is fine with a straight face?

Besides, leves are boring. Your group runs back and forth alpha striking mobs down in a matter of seconds and then you repeat the same thing over and over. Give me old school FFXI leveling any day of the week over this BS.



Quoted for truth - omfg great post by the way as well.

Also, what happens when leve run out. We can burn through 8 leve in a matter of hours, it is then at least 30 till they reset. Then I grind, then I think omfg this SP system sucks. This is where your party gets rewarded for fighting the weakest and not the strongest mobs

Give me XI levelling in parties any day as well please. Keep leve, behest and solo exactly how they are. Oh, please fix the abandon bugs though as that really does sound like an exploit. Wouldn;t it rock if you were awarded SP when the leve had finished then that would totally fix this. You fail the leve, either no or drastically reduced SP, would stop this we abandon it so we dont get the win so uber SP next reset is surely not the intended method

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 4:31pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#91 Dec 20 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Honestly, I read most of this post and I'm so confused.

First of all "SP is/not broken" is relative to perspective (like most things). If you compare XIV to other games and because it's not like other games or how you expect it to be then consider it broken - then sure, to you it is broken. You don't know what the devs intended so not a single person here can pretend otherwise.

I'm also confused about what people want. I mean, honestly, what the **** do you want?

There's a group of people here attesting you can get 50-60K (50,000-60,000!) in roughly three hours every thirty six hours. That's a rate of 17-20K per hour! and you can do this every other day! That leaves you 30 hours (if you don't eat or sleep or bathe) to do whatever you want!

So then there's a group of people complaining - WAH! I want to GRIND in those 33 hours!

So then there's a group of people saying you can solo 10K/hour.

So thent here's a group complaining - WAH! I want to GRIND with other people so I'm not bored.

So then there's a group of people saying you can duo or trio for 12-14K/hour (but more than that and it starts to trickle back to 10k) WAH 10,000 per hour! It will take me 6 hours to level! WAH!

Seriously, what the f do you want? How is 10-20k per hour bad to anyone? How is this making people unhappy? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. If you don't hit surplus by 2 Leve cycles (120,000 exp) or get enough levels from it then I guess you're out of luck until SE gives in to all this fng QQ'ng over nothing.

Maybe they should implement SMN Burns or open up Abyssea for you guys. I just don't get what EVERYONE here (who is complaining) actually wants out of this game or this system.

As far as I'm concerned 10k/hour (no matter how many in your group, grinding or doing leves) is pretty good experience. Yeah, the upper levels require ridiculous amounts of points to level. Good thing you have those 33 hours to grind your hearts' content.
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#92 Dec 20 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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I guess I left out the people who are crying because they don't like running around 1HKO easy mobs and they want to spent 2 minutes getting a paltry 200-250 when they could have killed - idk ... fng 5 coblyns in that time for a total of 420(ish).

I bet you're the group of people I kept trying to urge to fight VT rather than IT++ but you were like "NO! WE LIKE SPENDING 5 MINUTES AND GETTING THAT MASSIVE 250XP!" and I was like ... uh but we could kill 3-4 VT in that time and get 300-400... oh what's the bother.

I just don't get it. You all could be out there grinding to next rank instead of crying about how you can't grind to next rank the very particular way you want to grind on some random forum.

(Sorry for double post, but I didn't want to exclude anyone).
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Battle Mage Kiru
#93 Dec 20 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:
I guess I left out the people who are crying because they don't like running around 1HKO easy mobs and they want to spent 2 minutes getting a paltry 200-250 when they could have killed - idk ... fng 5 coblyns in that time for a total of 420(ish).


Totally fake, with the old system I can get upward of 25k SP/hour fighting mobs that can OHKO you. Well, yes KO you, not me.

I do grind in the new system, I got 6 ranks from 31 to 37 and going to 38 soon, since the Nov patch. Is it as interesting as the old one? Nope. And considering that the old system WAS broken, why does a broken system still feel more interesting than a "proper" system? Idk, maybe you never get the chance to do a "proper SP/hour" with the old system, maybe you get crap SP/hour with the old system. See, the point here is that not because the system is giving out SP, it is not broken. Same argument can be applied to defend the old broken system, because way obvious that people was advancing much faster than the new system.
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#94 Dec 20 2010 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I liked the old system better.

The only thing I would have added was a skill minimum. If you engage a mob and win, the minimum you get (scaled to the difficulty) would be something low like 30 or 40. Then people wouldn't have cried about getting "zero" skill up all the time.

I also raked in (average) 25k/hour on the old system.

Now I've learned to make due on the new system. From 30 to 36 I've done everything from figure out how to optimize SP on leves, best camps (for me) to solo Cob/Doblyn, grind on a variety of other mobs with members of my LS. I'm doing just fine in the new system, though I find it a bit slower.

I just don't understand what the complaints in this thread are about. You want to fight harder mobs and be rewarded? You ****** that opportunity away crying about getting 0 skill. Now make due with what you have because 10-20k per hour is pretty good experience (in my opinion, coming from NA PC release XI; and playing "vanilla" WoW for 2 months [and hating it]).

EDIT:

I also want to point out there is a "downside" to failing leves so you can reap the reward of SP. You level faster, but you are giving up Faction Credits which you need to participate in end game.

People can continue to see "abandoning" a leve to have it every cycle as a "cheat" or an "exploit" but it's not without its own system-inflicted punishment. You can level fast, or you can grind leves for Faction credits. That's the trade off.

You may believe this isn't what devs intended (I may believe it too) but you don't know for sure unless they come out and say so or make it so this is impossible.

I happen to think taking the "Random" out of leve cycles would be better all around for everyone. You could pick the leves you want: Farm SP, Farm Credits, Choose Rewards from a List (I'm pretty sick of being offered melee gear on my mage). I know that will never happen, though, but it would be better for the players all around to get the most out of the leve system.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 8:16pm by Kirutaru
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Battle Mage Kiru
#95 Dec 20 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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I just want leve and behest more balanced, before consider it a proper "grind". Why exactly killing group of 3 weakling Pteroc that can die in 2 AoE yield more reward than killing a proper Peiste or even bellytoad? Take the example of Behest, yesterday I did a 14 people behest at Nine Ives. Does not make sense that the final bellytoad give same SP as baby doe or tiny slug, and the bellytoad was supposed to be the "boss" of the Behest, seeing as it only spawned after you killed 30 something, 3/4 of which are lolcake with a few Peistes thrown in.

Might as well giving SP based on log in hour, because that's as much fun as the current system is.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 8:28pm by Khornette
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#96 Dec 20 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
I think it's hilarious how some people are saying it's fine when they're actually "gaming the system" by abandoning before success and only get good results on leves with broken drop rates, anyway. So, the only way to get decent SP is to abuse loopholes in the system and that's perfectly fine and people need to stop complaining? You can't even realistically keep this up without a static group, so what the ****? How can you say this is fine with a straight face?

Besides, leves are boring. Your group runs back and forth alpha striking mobs down in a matter of seconds and then you repeat the same thing over and over. Give me old school FFXI leveling any day of the week over this BS.


This, ten time over.


Really miss my first good parties in FF11, in crawler nest or what not, with huge team interaction, structure and yeah, epic moment too (crawler link + elemental pop etc.). Those were epic party, really, and that was just grinding. Just doing that was so much more benefical to the player skills than the mindless meripo style party that became the norm after toah (which was still a really good extension, due to assault/salavage and the Zeni NM mainly. the party play got boring from that point on though)
#97 Dec 20 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
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Like 2 other posts I've made regarding this topic, I have to say that people had no idea that there is actually nothing wrong with the SP system. Instead, it is more advantageous towards party. Why I say this is mainly because:

1.Solo players could not participate in hunting NMs.
-As you have already known, SE has included NMs that involves in party plays. SE also gave us the information of
adding more new NMs in the near future.
2.A party could kill mobs faster than solo players does.
-Not towards higher level mobs, but towards the same level of mobs that solo player can kill. If a party consist of
5 people, and each killing different mobs at the same time, each people will get 5X SP for every kill. (correct me
if I am wrong).
3.A party doesn't doesn't make people feel lonely.
-Well you know what I am talking about.

So basically the reason why there is no bonus SP given to a party is actually to balance out the progression between solo and party plays. ****, even the current system does not balance out because a party can kill faster than soloists. I am a soloist, and I do not really concern about that. So, for SE to promote party plays, they included the NMs where soloist could not participate and on top of that, SE even going to include more NMs in the future. And for the sake of solo players, please be reminded that FFXIV is developed to support both solo and party plays. I do not want want it to be one sided towards solo or party. I want it to be both so that people could choose how they wanted to play the game.

So, my point is, please look at a larger perspective of gameplay before you identify what are the advantageous and disadvantageous of both party and solo play. Because to me, the current system is perfectly fine in terms of balancing both gameplay.
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#98 Dec 21 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Before I start, I'd like to say yes. I agree all non-leve mob killing sp should be re-scaled to give more (~+25%); but I shall not comment on the criteria for scaling. Alternatively, the amount of sp required to gain a level should be lowered in the light of multi-job skill acquisition.

Maybe its time to ask people how they want to earn their sp, although I feel, players just want to follow a system that is 'slightly' out of their comfort zones for that... fun and challenge?, not come up with them; as they will feel torn between wanting to excel in what they are good at vs. taking on the challenge that is gaming.

A solution has many sides to it, to all the haters, try the proposed solution. If you still hate it, ok. This game sucks for you and I wish you hadn't wasted the $$ on it.

Some players' see how their solution is better, but not how it is worse in some ways. When they do get their wish and see the flaws that come with it... it is too late, and SE cannot afford that atm, neither can they tell the players on the flaws seeing how sensitive people are.

: A conveyor belt of mob-kiling with sp rewards that scales with difficulty.
: A leve with adjustable difficulty focusing on objectives.

The 2 above are not polar opposites.

Neither should more difficult mobs award more sp because some of them are there to
: make your game difficult.
: Give you good $$ and loot.

Let me ask all of the players out there. Why even have a grind? What is its purpose? Pay more subscription? There are many other negative examples I can bring up.

To me, its an opportunity to learn the job as well as know other players, form that critical relationship for objectives that require the numbers, team work and/or specialties. A testing ground for the combination of skills they have come out with for future encounters.

I hope people will push the boundaries that define game genres, not rip it apart and get nothing in the end for the sake of mindless vengeance, disappointment, hurt and amusement?.

The internet is free speech at its best, but please be considerate, do not dowse good information in a sea of emotional blur. Everyone knows they can get away with statements that will invoke strong retaliations IRL on the internet, don't abuse that.
#99 Dec 21 2010 at 3:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
I liked the old system better.

The only thing I would have added was a skill minimum. If you engage a mob and win, the minimum you get (scaled to the difficulty) would be something low like 30 or 40. Then people wouldn't have cried about getting "zero" skill up all the time.

The old system wasn't bad because you could get 0 SP, the old system was bad because it made absolutely no sense. You were rewarded for doing all kinds of stupid things like taking unnecessary damage (because mages get to heal and that procs SP) and Binding the mob over and over (because Bind procs SP). The SP/h was perfectly fine, the incentives were not. How can you not see how stupid it was?

The sad thing is, even though I think the new system is just better because now your rewards come from doing your job rather than ******* around, I'm having even less fun in the game because none of the most efficient methods of gaining SP appeal to me in the slightest. Sure, in the old system I felt like a fool for spamming Heavy Thrust and standing in AoE and there wasn't really much team work involved, but at least there was a camp, a group and mobs to grind. It was sh*t compared to FFXI but it beat what we have now. I have leves coming out of my ears, the thought of finding the necrologos pages yet again makes me feel nauseous and coblyns make me rage in frustration. If I wanted to level doing meaningless little quests and killing handicapped weaklings, I'd be playing WoW: Cataclysm right now.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 4:42am by Omena
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#100 Dec 21 2010 at 3:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Exactly Omena. The old system created competition between team members and worse, made you want to take as long as possible to down a mob...seems very backwards to me.
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MUTED
#101 Dec 21 2010 at 4:03 AM Rating: Good
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People keep saying the above, but it just wasn't true a higher levels. No one wanted you to only do light attacks. Apart from on fghts where SP didn;t proc, I would often have capped 500 SP before the mob was half dead. This was using my biggest baddest attacks, no one only wanted light attacks used an eft/raptors - saying they did is simply not true. If you had a bad experience there - then I appologise. I however spent weeks there and this was not the way our group rolled.

Yes, mages did need everyone to take aoe damage so they could get healing procs, but no eft/raptor parties ever said omg u used an attack other than light attack - kick him.

At least under the old system you were rewarded for a tough fight - NOT for fighting wimpy spiders

How is a system that rewards parties for killing the weakest, trashiest, least threatening mobs any more sensible

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:08am by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:11am by MisterGaribaldi
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