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SP System is Not BrokenFollow

#102 Dec 21 2010 at 4:14 AM Rating: Good
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
People keep saying the above, but it just wasn't true a higher levels. No one wanted you to only do light attacks.

Yes, mages did need everyone to take aoe damage so they could get healing procs, but no eft/raptor parties ever said omg u used an attack other than light attack - kick him.

At least under the old system you were rewarded for a tough fight - NOT for fighting wimpy spiders

How is a system that rewards parties for killing the weakest, trashiest, least threatening mobs any more sensible

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:08am by MisterGaribaldi


I think both systems are broken.

Before, SP amount was good, but the methodology of getting it, as well as equality, was skewed.

Spamming random binds and whatnot does not make any sense. You were rewarded for debuffs more than you were the actual killing of the enemy. Not only this, but very very early levels, the mages would get shafted for SP if the mob choice, or group composition was bad. Grouping with 4 archers/lancers at mun tuy killing opos? The enemy dies before you can even get a cure off. Say goodbye to all your SP gains. What this caused were: People were ranking up two to three times before others ranked up once. This system is flawed, however the amount you could get per hour was very, very generous.

Now, the methodology is correct, however the SP gains are much too low, and the mob choice does not make sense.

By having SP equal, everyone progresses at the same rate, which is a good thing. One archer rank is equal to one conjurer rank, which means everybody can rank up together as a team, and nobody has to put in any overtime. However, we're getting very very ****** SP for killing monsters 'stronger' than us, causing us to beat up the most puny monster we can find for hours and hours until we rank up.

In a sense, I am an advocate of a mixture of both systems. I would like to see a minimum amount of SP per mob, with an additional SP bonus if you did any debuffs or cures or whatnot. So say you have a 150SP base, and a ceiling of 500. YOu can get 350 by debuffing, curing, or doing damage to it. This would make people want to fight tougher opponents (higher HP = more status effects), while soloers can still just nuke **** down for the base SP bonus.
#103 Dec 21 2010 at 4:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Meowshi wrote:

In a sense, I am an advocate of a mixture of both systems. I would like to see a minimum amount of SP per mob, with an additional SP bonus if you did any debuffs or cures or whatnot. So say you have a 150SP base, and a ceiling of 500. YOu can get 350 by debuffing, curing, or doing damage to it. This would make people want to fight tougher opponents (higher HP = more status effects), while soloers can still just nuke sh*t down for the base SP bonus.

A mixture would be almost as bad. You'd yet again be standing in AoE so the mages can cure and spamming bind so you can squeeze out that extra bit of SP. Any action based SP system is going to create conflicts of interest one way or the other.
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#104 Dec 21 2010 at 4:29 AM Rating: Good
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Under the old system when more people joined the party, you could actually see an increase on the value each proc had, you could in effect actually see the party bonus working.

Here, when more people join, the sp per mob drops. This to me is implying the bonus is either not working, or it is not scaling correctly to tough mobs.

We have experimented on eft with 3-6 man parties, as we no longer need huge zerg crews to take them down. One eft in tam tara would gain us between 145 and 150 sp. Not bad you might say. But in the time it takes to kill one, we could have killed 3 sordes for 80-90 sp each. Therefore we earn more sp not fighting them.

I think SP needs to be more related to the HP of a mob and not just its actual level.

Keep solo, leve and behest as they are, but make it more beneficial fighting harder mobs. This way the duo spider popping teams are happy, and those who want to be rewarded for challanging fights are also happy.
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#105 Dec 21 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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There is one, and literrally just one thing I seem people are not getting at all, that complain about SP and PT SP being broken...mobs give you lower SP going by fixed numbers now...but what the **** is wrong with everyone...

Before Nov Patch, you were able to get like 10k+ SP/h and people were happy about it...they found it to be a viable way of ranking up, cause you get that "shiny 500 SP" from time to time, despite the fact a ******* mob took 1-2min to kill cause he was completely overranked...and you fought with 15 ppl preferably.

Now you get 150ish SP from a Mob in a group 4 and it dies in 30sec...which results in 10k+ SP/h AS WELL...its just lower numbers per mob, but faster kills which result in the same ******* thing.

I for myself don't think the complainers won't be happy until each mob gives 500SP again, but also takes only 30sec to kill...

I'm getting a ******* 9k SP/h soloing and easily over 10k SP/h with my leve static when we grind...so what the **** is broken about SP? Besides...I never get like a quarter of the SP, when were in a group of 4...its more like this...

Solo: 95SP
Duo: 85SP
3-man: 75SP
4-man: 65SP

BUT the time it takes to kill

Solo: 15sec
Duo: 10sec
3-man: 7sec
4-man: 5sec

Which means in 15sec I can get 95SP solo, or 195 in a 4-man group...so yeah...everythings broken for sure...-_-
#106stripesonfire, Posted: Dec 21 2010 at 10:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) deleted.
#107 Dec 21 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Shezard wrote:
There is one, and literrally just one thing I seem people are not getting at all, that complain about SP and PT SP being broken...mobs give you lower SP going by fixed numbers now...but what the **** is wrong with everyone...

Before Nov Patch, you were able to get like 10k+ SP/h and people were happy about it...they found it to be a viable way of ranking up, cause you get that "shiny 500 SP" from time to time, despite the fact a @#%^ing mob took 1-2min to kill cause he was completely overranked...and you fought with 15 ppl preferably.

Now you get 150ish SP from a Mob in a group 4 and it dies in 30sec...which results in 10k+ SP/h AS WELL...its just lower numbers per mob, but faster kills which result in the same @#%^ing thing.

I for myself don't think the complainers won't be happy until each mob gives 500SP again, but also takes only 30sec to kill...

I'm getting a @#%^ing 9k SP/h soloing and easily over 10k SP/h with my leve static when we grind...so what the @#%^ is broken about SP? Besides...I never get like a quarter of the SP, when were in a group of 4...its more like this...

Solo: 95SP
Duo: 85SP
3-man: 75SP
4-man: 65SP

BUT the time it takes to kill

Solo: 15sec
Duo: 10sec
3-man: 7sec
4-man: 5sec

Which means in 15sec I can get 95SP solo, or 195 in a 4-man group...so yeah...everythings broken for sure...-_-



You don;t get it, you really don;t get it at all. Where the **** did you get 10k an hour under old sp system.

It was easy to earn 20k sp plus.

I can earn the same sp solo as I can in a party (regardless of size) - where is my incentive to party in a MMO. Forget leve linking, most of us grind mobs when the leve have been completed.

The issue now is that yes you can still earn decent sp in a duo party, but you are forced to grind spider mobs, really weak pathetic mobs. Fighting hard mobs is not beneficial.

You are clearly happy fighting unchallanging mobs, most of us are not!

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 12:17pm by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 12:20pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#108 Dec 21 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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My problem here is that many MMOs make you fight pathetic easy mobs to get your level up and do it much better than FFXIV.

The only draw FFXIV/FFXI had over other MMOs was its unique combat system. That combat system isn't being utilized so the game has become pointless and not fun.

When they make the most efficient way of leveling fighting against tough mobs in a party like every other FF game ever made then we'll be making progress
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#109 Dec 21 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I'm appalled at some of the posters on the other pages using exploits of the guildleve system to justify that the SP system is okay.

I've said this before though, I hated the old SP system, I like this new system better because my Shield gains were pretty much diddly beforehand. They just need to amplify the amount of SP given to mobs of different colors and amp up the bonus party percentage. I think when Square-Enix brought in the system, they tested it for lower ranks, but not so much the higher ranks and as a result we have this system that needs tweaking.

An alternative is pretty much halving the SP needed to rank up from rank 20 and on. It's just way too much for the little gains we get here and there.



In short, I doubt this whole high rank grinding thing was intentional, it's just a result of rushing a system out before it was fully ready.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 12:54pm by UltKnightGrover
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#110 Dec 21 2010 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I have to ask a question. Has anyone else not ran into the problem of over crowded coblyn camps yet, or is it just me? servers are way under population caps and already we have problems with camps. So what happens when ps3 hits and the servers are 4 times the size they are now? this alone seems to point out the fact that either the low sp high sp per hour grind is broken or they need to drop every mob type besides coblyn so we can roll with their awesome system. If as seems to be a trend here with some people to find a little niche and hug it tight as the game burns around you good luck with the empty servers very soon. Alot of people are fed up with this trash of party sp mechanics and wont wait much longer. I play long enough now to do leeves then log off hoping, nay praying they make it worth playing again.
Thanks,
Big Jer
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#111 Dec 21 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Why do we have to choose between the old system and the new? There are obviously flaws in each of them.

I just see it being easier, and simpler, to increase SP gain from mobs higher in difficulty and/or level within the current SP system.
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#112 Dec 21 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Default
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Shezard wrote:
There is one, and literrally just one thing I seem people are not getting at all, that complain about SP and PT SP being broken...mobs give you lower SP going by fixed numbers now...but what the **** is wrong with everyone...

Before Nov Patch, you were able to get like 10k+ SP/h and people were happy about it...they found it to be a viable way of ranking up, cause you get that "shiny 500 SP" from time to time, despite the fact a @#%^ing mob took 1-2min to kill cause he was completely overranked...and you fought with 15 ppl preferably.

Now you get 150ish SP from a Mob in a group 4 and it dies in 30sec...which results in 10k+ SP/h AS WELL...its just lower numbers per mob, but faster kills which result in the same @#%^ing thing.

I for myself don't think the complainers won't be happy until each mob gives 500SP again, but also takes only 30sec to kill...

I'm getting a @#%^ing 9k SP/h soloing and easily over 10k SP/h with my leve static when we grind...so what the @#%^ is broken about SP? Besides...I never get like a quarter of the SP, when were in a group of 4...its more like this...

Solo: 95SP
Duo: 85SP
3-man: 75SP
4-man: 65SP

BUT the time it takes to kill

Solo: 15sec
Duo: 10sec
3-man: 7sec
4-man: 5sec

Which means in 15sec I can get 95SP solo, or 195 in a 4-man group...so yeah...everythings broken for sure...-_-



You don;t get it, you really don;t get it at all. Where the **** did you get 10k an hour under old sp system.

It was easy to earn 20k sp plus.

I can earn the same sp solo as I can in a party (regardless of size) - where is my incentive to party in a MMO. Forget leve linking, most of us grind mobs when the leve have been completed.

The issue now is that yes you can still earn decent sp in a duo party, but you are forced to grind spider mobs, really weak pathetic mobs. Fighting hard mobs is not beneficial.

You are clearly happy fighting unchallanging mobs, most of us are not!

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 12:17pm by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 12:20pm by MisterGaribaldi


Ok, so now we went from "SP system is broken" to "fights are not epic enough so the SP system is broken" <.<
I'm grinding on Coblyns when im Solo or in a Duo...we do grind better and harder mobs in our 4 way PT, cause we get 150-170SP per mob and they die really fast as well. But oh yeah...that kind of grinding includes a Tank and a Healer plus Battle Regiments to kill stuff fast, so thats how it should be to make fights "interesting", but most of the people don't PT that way(yet, or won't ever until SE patches it to faceroll or something). And don't say stuff thats not true...you won't solo the same amount of SP you could do in a Duo, Trio or w/e...you just won't and thats fact.

And don't exxagerate...20k SP/h+ easily? Regular and average groups were all between 10-15k SP/h...not to mention for that **** to work you needed almost a full PT for the PT SP bonus ****...now you can get almost the same amount of SP in a smaller 3-5man group...not mentioning the fact that you seem to not bother about "boring and un-epic" fights when you get 20k SP/h+, but you do when you get 10k SP/h+...

The main problem here is and always have been...people don't bother to look and try for new ways...especially since the population dropped a lot since the release, so therefore peolpe are bound to find out many things themselves...but well...most don't find out anything and just jump on the "SP is broken" bandwagon...

Anyone can talk as much as they want...I experienced it differently and therefore I won't be talked over, when I clearly know whats working for me and whats not.

Just a sum up again:

My group of 4 ppl(Tank, DD, Healer)

Each leve reset we get between 40-60k SP for doing 5-6 leves in around 3h~(including walking, teleporting etc)
Sure, we "exploit" the system a bit, but if its a way to get good SP, why should I not use it.

When we grind together, we get 10k SP/h+ easily on fights that require tanking, healing and Battle Regiments...when I solo I get a decent 9k+ SP/h and in Duo its 12k+ SP/h.

So no, its not broken...I can understand that people see that fighting "harder" mobs is not beneficial SP wise, but why do you bother with that...the amount of SP/h you CAN get is still the same as before Nov Patch...the only thing SE can do, is making fights against harder mobs more beneficial to let you get MORE SP than before Nov Patch...but the amount of SP you CAN get right now is still viable and more than enough.

The only thing that will result in people ******** about SP, will be that Coblyns prolly get a way higher Def and more HP...and everything else just stays the same...
#113 Dec 21 2010 at 3:42 PM Rating: Default
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20k sp an hour was easily obtainable by our static. JP players ftw
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#114 Dec 21 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
20k sp an hour was easily obtainable by our static. JP players ftw

20k/h was definitely obtainable if the group was large enough.
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#115 Dec 21 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
20k sp an hour was easily obtainable by our static. JP players ftw


10k XP/h+ was easily obtainable in FFXI as well(back in 2005)...didn't change the fact that 80% of all PTs only got 4-6k...

Oh and since you had a static before Patch...you should have them still don't you? So where is the problem in ranking up then...
#116 Dec 21 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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174 posts
@ Omena Correct

Also using the right skills. Comrade in arms + disorient usually equalled 300 sp before the mob had even lost health (if they proced)

Collusion onto tank - thank you for that other 150 sp

My static have all gone back to XI - where there is a challange to the fights

FFXIV just gets a big Warou



Edited, Dec 21st 2010 4:59pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#117 Dec 21 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
@ Omnea Correct

Also using the right skills. Comrade in arms + disorient usually equalled 300 sp before the mob had even lost health (if they proced)

Collusion onto tank - thank you for that other 150 sp

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 4:58pm by MisterGaribaldi


Was fun to be capped on SP for the fight 10seconds after it started and still need to fight 1min to get them...

You were talking about "challenge and epic" fights...yet you don't seem to have cared for that when you got 500SP a fight...I just can't take you serious...so let's leave it at that.

edit: And your static seems to be a weird bunch as well..they had no problem to static for SP before the patch, when fights were just as unchallenging and boring as they are after the patch, but they didn't realize it until the nov patch or what?

This is just hilarious...if you don't like the game(as your static seemed to not like it), why even play any further? If you want that challenging fights, go find a game that givey you what you seek.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 10:05pm by Shezard
#118 Dec 21 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
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You like missing the point dont you, I have already said several posts back that 500 sp was usually capped long before the mob had died. Also getting 500 from them was the rule and not the exception

People died fighting efts, when was the last time a coblyn killed you.

Just because SP was capped shortly into the fight, how does that make it less difficult.

I know pressing 1 1 1 1 1 has fried your brain but come on man.....think

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:02pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#119 Dec 21 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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unclejer wrote:
I have to ask a question. Has anyone else not ran into the problem of over crowded coblyn camps yet, or is it just me? servers are way under population caps and already we have problems with camps. So what happens when ps3 hits and the servers are 4 times the size they are now? this alone seems to point out the fact that either the low sp high sp per hour grind is broken or they need to drop every mob type besides coblyn so we can roll with their awesome system. If as seems to be a trend here with some people to find a little niche and hug it tight as the game burns around you good luck with the empty servers very soon. Alot of people are fed up with this trash of party sp mechanics and wont wait much longer. I play long enough now to do leeves then log off hoping, nay praying they make it worth playing again.
Thanks,
Big Jer


I highly doubt Cobylyns were intended to be the defacto SP camp. Either by glitch or some obscure reason they give proportionately more SP than other mobs of the same level, and players figured it out. I imagine this (SP gains in general) is high on SE's "to do" list.
#120 Dec 21 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
You like missing the point dont you, I have already said several posts back that 500 sp was usually capped long before the mob had died. Also getting 500 from them was the rule and not the exception

People died fighting efts, when was the last time a coblyn killed you.

Just because SP was capped shortly into the fight, how does that make it less difficult.

I know pressing 1 1 1 1 1 has fried your brain but come on man.....think

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:02pm by MisterGaribaldi


In fact people only died from Efts when either healers didn't cure them or if people with extremely low VIT got hit by the Thundervapor...other then that there was no reason to die at all and people didn't die...oh right...forgot...people showing up with 15 man on Rank 24 for Efts...yeah they died...because they were way to low for Efts but still wanted the shiny 500SP...

PS: You don't seem to get the point that not everyone in your ******* PTs got 500SP everytime...I'm a Gladiator...if I'm not tanking I didn't get to SP cap in most of the fights...but since Provoke, Taunt and **** also gives SP...everyone was spamming it like crazy, which resulted in Tanks mostly, not getting near SP cap...not to mention if you were not tanking, there was no way to get Shield SP, besides Shield Bash...THATS what I call broken...but I guess in your selfish ego world, you getting 500SP is the only thing that matters.

Oh and right...Thundervapor got buffed after nov patch...it almost one hitted me where I didn't lose even 50% of my health before patch...
#121 Dec 21 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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You sir must suck at playing Glad then - or barely spent time at eft / raptors.

This is my friend who managed to get 50 before they changed the system

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=2611027

Sure you ever fought them?

Edit

I do actually agree with you that shield gains were rubbish - the fact he is 36 shield is testimony to that, hence a static as well to ensure you would always be the tank

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:18pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#122 Dec 21 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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People should fight efts again so I can stock up on eft tails for Dzemael Gratin
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#123 Dec 21 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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There simply aren't enough coblyns to support an entire server grinding them all day.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:22pm by TeraKalinathon
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#124 Dec 21 2010 at 4:33 PM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
You sir must suck at playing Glad then - or barely spent time at eft / raptors.

This is my friend who managed to get 50 before they changed the system

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=2611027

Sure you ever fought them?

Edit

I do actually agree with you that shield gains were rubbish - the fact he is 36 shield is testimony to that, hence a static as well to ensure you would always be the tank

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:18pm by MisterGaribaldi


First your friend got to 50 after the patch...he hit 45 before it.
Second your friend has nothing besides his Gladiator...grinding one class non stop is not really an achievement...
Third...you can have luck on ability procs and you cannot...sometimes I got 200SP from a Provoke, sometimes I didn't get one **** proc a whole eft fight...
Fourth...you got one class high enough for raptors, going by the "pre patch"...
Fifth... You haven't even bothered doing some ranks on your Lancer since nov patch, so how the **** do you think you're "viable" to give any comment on SP system and if its broken...
Sixth... I have stopped my Gladiator when I hit 30 to get my ARM and BSM to 30 before going on, which I just managed to get 1 day before the Nov Patch...since then I got to Rank 41 in 2 weeks...SP is so broken...I know...
#125 Dec 21 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Default
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@ Shezard - Sure, we "exploit" the system a bit, but if its a way to get good SP, why should I not use it.

Great attitude - way to go

Let's sumarise here - you are happy exploiting a game but you are not happy with legit players wanting decent SP for fighting mobs harder than pathetic spiders.

You have dug your own hole and I will no longer reply to you as I personally hate people who abuse game mechanics for their own gain. Just wish there was a way to b list on these forums so I hear no more of your crap

Weren't you also the one who moaned that people were discussing this on a public forum as you dont want it fixed.

Lancer was 36 before sp change - 2 levels under new system in 2 months as I hate levelling so much

Spent the rest of the time crafting and getting everything to 20 currently.

He got to 48 and not 45 he had to grind the last 2 levels on trash getting 60 sp a mob

Yeah bud - you got great SP gains by exploiting leve well done - do you feel proud? That's also why you got to 41 in 2 weeks, ever think about that!!!!

The 1 1 1 1 1 has fried your brain a lot more than I thought





Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:45pm by MisterGaribaldi
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#126 Dec 21 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The old system wasn't bad because you could get 0 SP, the old system was bad because it made absolutely no sense. You were rewarded for doing all kinds of stupid things like taking unnecessary damage (because mages get to heal and that procs SP) and Binding the mob over and over (because Bind procs SP). The SP/h was perfectly fine, the incentives were not. How can you not see how stupid it was?


Because I was never in parties that did stupid things like that? Um. That's stupid. Why did anyone do something so stupid? Simply for more SP? lol

I got 25k/hour just tearing through mobs. People used all their abilities. There was no 1-spam and there certainly wasn't any of that which you listed. I guess you could do those idiotic things to reach the same SP/hour but why would you when you can also go on a giant 15-man killing spree across an entire zone?

You're faulting the system where I'm faulting the players. There was nothing stopping people from actually killing mobs rather than stalling for SP - except their own desires to cap SP gain on every mob (and not risk getting 0SP).

Do I agree with you that a system which allows this is faulty? Yes, but to scrap the entire system due to a bunch of idiots wasn't necessary. This same thing happened in Campaign so they should have expected it.
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#127 Dec 21 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Sure, we "exploit" the system a bit, but if its a way to get good SP, why should I not use it.

Great attitude - way to go

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:38pm by MisterGaribaldi


Your arguments and excuses are just stupid and plain dumb.
We "exploit" the system by failing leves on purpose which we know net very good SP...EVERYONE grinding before Nov patch "exploit" the system by fighting extremely overranked mobs with a group of 15 and trying to do DMG as low as possible in order to get to SP cap before the mob dies...

Why is one way of "explotiting" legit, while the other is not when they result in the exactly same thing and don't give you an advantage of some sort.

You can talk as much as you want, for me its clear the only way you will be satisfied is by getting 500SP again in 2min fights...I guess 500SP for fights as long as coblyns would please you even more, since you didn't bother for "challenge" at all before nov patch, but now act like you don't like the new SP system cause it doesn't encourage to fight harder mobs, hence having less of a challenge on a fight...you're just ridiculous and trying to find excuses for not liking the new SP system, while the only thing that bothers you is not getting as much SP as before the nov patch...

PS: I'm playing with a controller...so no 1 1 1 1 1 1 ****...as you seem to play with your keyboard, I can see where all the nerd rage comes from...

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 10:50pm by Shezard
#128 Dec 21 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Default
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Shezard is a troll right? Or is he actually serious. I'm really confused.
SE admitted the game is broken when they fired everyone. Why is it even a debate anymore. Obviously almost no one likes this new SP system and in all honesty its kind of ridiculous. Almost no one is partying anymore.

So logical solution for a COMPANY TRYING TO MAKE MONEY. is to change it.
if they need to change it, its broken.
#129 Dec 21 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Default
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Azurymber wrote:
Shezard is a troll right? Or is he actually serious. I'm really confused.
SE admitted the game is broken when they fired everyone. Why is it even a debate anymore. Obviously almost no one likes this new SP system and in all honesty its kind of ridiculous. Almost no one is partying anymore.

So logical solution for a COMPANY TRYING TO MAKE MONEY. is to change it.
if they need to change it, its broken.



Bit of a **** as far as I can make out
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#130 Dec 21 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
The old system wasn't bad because you could get 0 SP, the old system was bad because it made absolutely no sense. You were rewarded for doing all kinds of stupid things like taking unnecessary damage (because mages get to heal and that procs SP) and Binding the mob over and over (because Bind procs SP). The SP/h was perfectly fine, the incentives were not. How can you not see how stupid it was?


Because I was never in parties that did stupid things like that? Um. That's stupid. Why did anyone do something so stupid? Simply for more SP? lol

I got 25k/hour just tearing through mobs. People used all their abilities. There was no 1-spam and there certainly wasn't any of that which you listed. I guess you could do those idiotic things to reach the same SP/hour but why would you when you can also go on a giant 15-man killing spree across an entire zone?

You're faulting the system where I'm faulting the players. There was nothing stopping people from actually killing mobs rather than stalling for SP - except their own desires to cap SP gain on every mob (and not risk getting 0SP).

Do I agree with you that a system which allows this is faulty? Yes, but to scrap the entire system due to a bunch of idiots wasn't necessary. This same thing happened in Campaign so they should have expected it.

Nonsense. In a 15-man party you'd get much greater SP from various procs than you would from damage. If you just killed as quickly as possible, you wouldn't have been anywhere near the SP gain of debuff spam. As for healing, it's all AoE and the tank needs healing anyway, so it's not like there was much of an opportunity cost to standing in the AoE attacks so heals land on more than one player.

In an ideal group the mob would die very quickly after most people capped their SP. Too slow and you spend too much stuck at the cap, too fast and you don't have time to rack up the SP.
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#131 Dec 21 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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16,959 posts
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Just wish there was a way to b list on these forums so I hear no more of your crap
Actually there is.

If you hover over a poster's name, you can add them your Ignore List.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 3:51pm by Kirby
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#132 Dec 21 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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@ Kirby

You rule thank you
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#133Shezard, Posted: Dec 21 2010 at 4:57 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You guys actually believe that anybody in SE FFXIv dev team got fired? Lol Tanaka stepped back as a sign to show "We did wrong and I will bare the consequences"
#134 Dec 21 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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494 posts
Shezard wrote:
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
Shezard is a troll right? Or is he actually serious. I'm really confused.
SE admitted the game is broken when they fired everyone. Why is it even a debate anymore. Obviously almost no one likes this new SP system and in all honesty its kind of ridiculous. Almost no one is partying anymore.

So logical solution for a COMPANY TRYING TO MAKE MONEY. is to change it.
if they need to change it, its broken.



Bit of a **** as far as I can make out


You guys actually believe that anybody in SE FFXIv dev team got fired? Lol Tanaka stepped back as a sign to show "We did wrong and I will bare the consequences"
He's still with the dev team and he still gives advice and stuf...nothing has changed overall...SE pulled that card as a "marketing" thing, so players on the edge to quitting still hold out a bit to see if the "new" dev team is doing anything better, which in the end was only done to give the actual dev team more time to get things right.

Some people are just not from this world it seems...sh*t like this happens all over the world everyday...there is adifference between really "changing things" and just pulling out a card for "marketing and publicity reasons"...the act of SE with Tanaka stepping back and such was nothing else then politics...



Right... thats why they got like 10+ new people?
Also why would the ever leave things the way they are when the game has failed. That's guaranteeing that the game flops, and the ps3 release flops.
They actually need to fix the game. And the old dev team obviously wasn't working.
#135 Dec 21 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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There's nothing wrong with the current SP System, only that there's a significant proportion of people who used to protect the system right after Nov patch now do the exact opposite *coughs* Aurelius *coughs* So yea there's nothing wrong with us... NOT.
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#136 Dec 21 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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72 posts
Abuse of the system... hmmm

Would it be abuse if ff11's player base kept beating on crabs, birds of paradise for xp? Every game, players will find the 'dodos' for best gain in experience, you cannot avoid it.

However, I hope players do not look at SP gain so specifically (at an individual mob). There are other factors such as loot, mob density, respawn rates. etc. Which leads me from...
good gimp SP mobs to...
good SP camps to...
good SP camps with good loot to...
good SP camps with good loot for a specific class or group composition to...
good SP camps with good loot for a specific class or group composition that can make a specific mob 'coblyn' gimp.

So far, I've tested beyond coblyns and doblyns, I would say that there are many other mobs as gimp as the coblyn; Given the group composition, knowledge on camps and assessment of party. Am I over-theorizing this thing? No. I experimented around many things to understand that when a 'party' or player goes out, you should best make use of the time and look beyond SP. e.g. fattening your pockets, farming shards you need, farming mats you need, farming mats that sell well, easy mobs for your group.

Edit : Examples

Dormouse : If you burst it fast enough at the start, the AI will kick in and it will run. Very good for range group if you burst it at the start with ws, let it run and hit it from behind.

Yarzon : Range mob with fierce conal AOE atk, low hp. Range tank it with rest of group attacking it. Dies in normally 20-30 secs, the duration of 1 provoke or taunt.

Nannies : Very slow atk, very low accuracy, very low evasion, 1 moonrise will disable the headbutt which is 80% of the damage it can ever do to you.

Wolves : Scouring strike from archers remove their self-atk buffs and their AI will keep rebuffing and waste their tp.


Many here are very touchy. I do not see the need to reinforce personal opinion with attacks and retaliations. It does nothing but enrage others and does nothing to convince, explain nor clarify. The insults are a tool to return hurt with hurt, to silence disagreement, to force acceptance; It is a lazy person's method of proof. It hurts to see good information here drown in a sea of emo.



Edited, Dec 21st 2010 10:19pm by renmabiao

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 10:20pm by renmabiao
#137 Dec 22 2010 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good
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174 posts
People view it as abuse, when leve are intentionally abandoned instead of being finished as they give about 14k sp per leve. This way it guarantees they have it again at the reset. If the leve was failed legitimately or D/C happened that is what the system was implemented for, not to have people do 99% of the leve then fail it to guarantee uber sp gain. If it was meant to be available every reset, surely it would and there wouldn;t be a random element in the availability.

If SP earnt from leve was not actually awarded until the leve had finished, it would totally stop this from happening

Someone posted requesting people not discuss this on a public forum as it will lead to SE patching it quicker. Personally, I think that is a very naive opinion. SE will surely be looking at leve completion / abandon rates and will surely wonder why people only ever take part in the same leve and then abandon it. This really will not be hard for them to detect and fix.

It is really abusing the game mechanics as I am sure SE did not intend people to abandon leve to guarantee availability for next time. When you multiply that by numerous people doing it to ensure the leve is linked.

The abuse has nothing to do with fighting mobs legitimately like coblyn / crab - which is what your post seems to be implying, not sure how you arrived at that conclusion though.



Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 5:53am by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 5:55am by MisterGaribaldi
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#138 Dec 22 2010 at 6:32 AM Rating: Default
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821 posts
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
People view it as abuse, when leve are intentionally abandoned instead of being finished as they give about 14k sp per leve. This way it guarantees they have it again at the reset. If the leve was failed legitimately or D/C happened that is what the system was implemented for, not to have people do 99% of the leve then fail it to guarantee uber sp gain. If it was meant to be available every reset, surely it would and there wouldn;t be a random element in the availability.

If SP earnt from leve was not actually awarded until the leve had finished, it would totally stop this from happening

Someone posted requesting people not discuss this on a public forum as it will lead to SE patching it quicker. Personally, I think that is a very naive opinion. SE will surely be looking at leve completion / abandon rates and will surely wonder why people only ever take part in the same leve and then abandon it. This really will not be hard for them to detect and fix.

It is really abusing the game mechanics as I am sure SE did not intend people to abandon leve to guarantee availability for next time. When you multiply that by numerous people doing it to ensure the leve is linked.

The abuse has nothing to do with fighting mobs legitimately like coblyn / crab - which is what your post seems to be implying, not sure how you arrived at that conclusion though.



Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 5:53am by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 5:55am by MisterGaribaldi


Well if SE doesn't want this to happen(failing on purpose), then they should balance all leves about the same SP gain overall...but they didn't and to top that they made 3 leves available per reset and area by complete randomness...it's the same with crafting leves...why are crafters not able to "choose" from leves as they see fit, as we can choose from Battle Leves? No @#%^ing crafter would waste a local leve on a Rank 1-20 when hes already 35+...Battle Leves are listed by Rank...crafters have to rely completely on luck...and since SP gain in the battle leves is not even nearly balanced, we have to use what we can, to ensure we can get the most out of the leves that are good.

I don't need to justify myself here...people can do whatever they want, all I was saying from the beginning is SP is not broken(since we can get the same SP/h as we could before nov patch) and Garibaldi giving some poor excuses for "not enough epicness and challenging fights while grinding" when all that bothers him is not getting his shiny 500SP per mob...and me getting rated down to sub-default only shows that I'm right...

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 12:32pm by Shezard
#139 Dec 22 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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@ Shezard - So glad I expanded your post - it really wasn;t worth reading yet more drivel from you.

But anyway, I posted this in a different thread you can read it here if interested:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=12929981772550432&page=1

The main points are:

People also say that "we" will not be happy until Eft give 500 sp per mob, this is complete garbage.

The below figures illustrate would I would find acceptable for these types of mobs. Keep solo and behest exactly as they are, these values would represent say a 6 man party. Easy to manage and not an over sized zerg crew.

Eft Tam Tara / Mistbeard - 215-235
Eft Tree Speak / Nine Ivies - (Slightly Higher Level) - 235-250
Raptors - 250-285
Salamander (think its this mob) - 285 - 300

A far cry from the 500 sp per mob most are claiming "we" want.

I would also bet that most people who think the SP grind system is screwed would agree with those.

Partying would then have a slightly better return than soloing but nothing too OP. An increase of about 25-30% would be awesome.

Now pls stop QQ, that we want 500, we don't

P.S Hows the exploiting going made an imba amount of SP from your abandoned leve yet. GJ and asking people to not talk about it LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Yes you can get the same SP before patch (actually you cant anymore as the camps are too crowded now) But who wants to fight weak spider mobs for hours every day. Pressing 2 2 2 oh no it died just as I was about to do a WS. Oh clearly you do!

P.S You are such a hypcrite. Quick to say I want 500 SP a mob, yet there you are wanting ALL leve to be equal and give the same SP. Why the **** should it.

If SP was awarded at the end of the leve it would stop cheats like you from getting the same leve and uber SP every reset, rather than relying on the random nature as intended.

Cant wait for this to get fixed I really cant. Can't stop people sending feedback directly to SE can you. Well you actually cant stop them discussing it on a public forum either but thats besides the point.

No more bananas for you - I really will stop feeding the troll now.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 8:02am by MisterGaribaldi

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 8:08am by MisterGaribaldi
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#140 Dec 22 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Default
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821 posts
MisterGaribaldi wrote:
@ Shezard - So glad I expanded your post - it really wasn;t worth reading yet more drivel from you.

But anyway, I posted this in a different thread you can read it here if interested:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=12929981772550432&page=1

The main points are:

People also say that "we" will not be happy until Eft give 500 sp per mob, this is complete garbage.

The below figures illustrate would I would find acceptable for these types of mobs. Keep solo and behest exactly as they are, these values would represent say a 6 man party. Easy to manage and not an over sized zerg crew.

Eft Tam Tara / Mistbeard - 215-235
Eft Tree Speak / Nine Ivies - (Slightly Higher Level) - 235-250
Raptors - 250-285
Salamander (think its this mob) - 285 - 300

A far cry from the 500 sp per mob most are claiming "we" want.

I would also bet that most people who think the SP grind system is screwed would agree with those.

Partying would then have a slightly better return than soloing but nothing too OP. An increase of about 25-30% would be awesome.

Now pls stop QQ, that we want 500, we don't

P.S Hows the exploiting going made an imba amount of SP from your abandoned leve yet. GJ and asking people to not talk about it LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Yes you can get the same SP before patch (actually you cant anymore as the camps are too crowded now) But who wants to fight weak spider mobs for hours every day. Pressing 2 2 2 oh no it died just as I was about to do a WS. Oh clearly you do!



Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:58am by MisterGaribaldi


And you seem to miss the fact that I have stated several times that PT SP is broken to a certain degree but not even nearly as much as people make it look like. People exaggerate by far and you did just the same in this thread over and over again...and I said it several times as well...I do grind on Doblyns when I'm solo or in a Duo...but as soon as my leve static comes together were grinding on other stuff, which gives us more SP/h then Doblyns would...but you're right, go on argueing with me while completely ignoring the things I actually say and make up stuff in your mind.

PS: Yeah we got a decent amount of SP by failing leves...though the droprate was kinda sh*tty, so we got less than usual, but still 30k in 2h(with small breaks in between), but thanks for showing interest...lol

PPS: I was willing to give information of what we do and so was the OP, but all that people did was complaining that we talk BS and SP is @#%^ed up...yeah...way to go...

edit2: I was actually getting PMs about which leves my leve static does and such from people, after this thread started...and I gave them all leve names and locations with the numbers we got and what we do, so they can compare...
I'm willing to give people information that are willing to take it...not the stupid *** complainers constanly doing nothing except for crying for SP system fix, while doing nothing to find out decent ways of grinding...

Plus you're talking big in that thread you linked as if you had tested ****, while its clearly visible through your Lodestone History that you didn't test anything...so stop acting like you did, when you actually have no clue.

edit: cause of your edit...lol why SHOULDN'T leves all give you around same amount of SP? They are completely and purely meant for getting SP and a small gil/item reward...nothing else...with each leve varrieing in SP gain so much it is just broken...nobody would bother with crappy leves(as we do), if there are a lot better ones to choose from.

You're the @#%^ing hypocrite, complaining that fighting Doblyns over and over again for hours is sh*tty, but you didn't mind fighting Efts and Raptors over and over again for hours...you're just hilarious man...think before posting...thats my advice...

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 1:10pm by Shezard

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 1:10pm by Shezard

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 1:17pm by Shezard
#141 Dec 22 2010 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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174 posts
Spider - can solo dies in 3 hits gives best SP. 2 2 2 2 2 so so so so boring to fight thiese would rather stick pins in my eyes.

Eft / Raptor - need a party (a semblance of tactics required, yeah I know its not rocket science but its a little more than bashing a spiders brains in before the other pt members have even got out of passive mode) - You find these boring whilst I and many others did not. Why would I find it boring fighting something that is more of a challange than a weakling mob. Really why would I? I have no problem with grinding and do not find that boring, what I find boring is killing pointless mobs that are no threat to me or my party.

**** I would even fight the ogre in Mhordhona with a party if it was great SP.

All I am saying is that partying should be rewarded for fighting tough fights, killing mobs that die in a matter of hits should not be the de facto mob to lvl on giving best SP.




Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 8:19am by MisterGaribaldi
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#142 Dec 22 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Default
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821 posts
I can agree with that for sure, fighting harder/tougher mobs should be more rewarding, but that's pretty much all where SP needs to be fixed IMO. And of course balancing Regional leves overall to make them all rewarding around the same degree.

And thats not what people are talking about here and almost every other thread on the ZAM board...people are crying for Ranks handed to them within 1h at 30+(exaggerating a bit myself here, but I think you get the point)
#143 Dec 22 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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174 posts
And that is all I am asking for, really there was no need for us to bang heads the way we did.

We are in effect asking for the same thing!! Are we not?

You can look at my post history and it is all I have ever said needs fixing. You have the impression that I hate this game, when the reality is totally different. I loved XI so **** much and invested so many hours into it. I feel as passionatly (or I really want to) about this game, but sadly it's not quite there yet. yes it is getting better and each patch brings improvements. But as soon as this is fixed, I will be completely happy with the game as I will have several options to level effetively.

I love the solo play now, before SP was changed soloing after 25 used to suck major balls, now at least it is a viable option. This is important as not everyone wants or has the time to party level.

But the fact we only get 8 leve in 36 hours, and that SE have openly said they are not intended to be the main and only source of levelling, really makes me want this SP issue fixed as a matter of priority.

It is all well and good having NM's and endgame, but if people are detered from levelling to get there it has defeated its purpose.

I do absolutely agree that the old SP sytem was way too quick. No exageration, but lancer would now be 50 and Mara would probs be mid 40's (if not also capped) Clearly that was way too quick
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#144 Dec 22 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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MisterGaribaldi wrote:
Someone posted requesting people not discuss this on a public forum as it will lead to SE patching it quicker. Personally, I think that is a very naive opinion. SE will surely be looking at leve completion / abandon rates and will surely wonder why people only ever take part in the same leve and then abandon it. This really will not be hard for them to detect and fix.


my point was more that the player from shi ryu created the thread to brag about what he was doing as if he figured it out, when in reality people have been doing it for far longer than him.

it has been floating around on jp forums pretty much since right after the nov. patch and i'm sure has been used prior to that even.

coming on a forum to brag is retarded especially concerning something someone can potentially consider an exploit.

is it an exploit? i dont think so. you don't get faction credits or rewards for using the method. you still get pretty decent sp from just picking up and completely leves normally this is just more efficient.

the fact is great players figure out how to play efficiently and "exploit" the game for as long as they can.

the op is following a trend that started a month ago.


Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 11:43am by stripesonfire
#145 Dec 22 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,606 posts
stripesonfire wrote:
the fact is great players figure out how to play efficiently and "exploit" the game for as long as they can.

Weren't there some CON who figured out how to play efficiently a while back who got a spanking?
I'm always afraid to go messing with anything like that because you never know what the company will do. I'd be shocked for SE to do anything against these recent transgressors but you never know.

It's also pretty easy to determine if something can be considered an exploit.
1. Ask yourself if you believe that SE intended for whatever to be used that way.
2. Ask yourself if you are gaining a considerable benefit over what you would have gained if you had not done so.
If you answered yes to both of those than it's probably an exploit. It's SE's game so only they can say for sure but it's a good rule of thumb.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 12:16pm by MrTalos
#146 Dec 22 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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MrTalos wrote:
stripesonfire wrote:
the fact is great players figure out how to play efficiently and "exploit" the game for as long as they can.

Weren't there some CON who figured out how to play efficiently a while back who got a spanking?
I'm always afraid to go messing with anything like that because you never know what the company will do. I'd be shocked for SE to do anything against these recent transgressors but you never know.

It's also pretty easy to determine if something can be considered an exploit.
1. Ask yourself if you believe that SE intended for whatever to be used that way.
2. Ask yourself if you are gaining a considerable benefit over what you would have gained if you had not done so.
If you answered yes to both of those than it's probably an exploit. It's SE's game so only they can say for sure but it's a good rule of thumb.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 12:16pm by MrTalos

you can only assume what se thinks.

i'm sure there were several people that thought of the "exploit" in question...and i think it is ridiculous to assume no one at se thought of it as well.

there is a clear advantage and disadvantage to doing it as i've already mentioned: you are exchanging more sp for faction credits and rewards. with the implementation of leve nms thats cost faction credits you just won't have the credit to do them if you use this method.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 12:45pm by stripesonfire
#147 Dec 22 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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291 posts
The thing is it's not an "exploit." At least not the way Square Enix defines it.

Their standard definition of exploit is when you know (for sure) the game is not working correctly and instead of reporting this (semi-immediately) you continue to repeat the action for personal gain. This usually requires a bug or a glitch or some other programming error that they did not intend.

Killing Absolute Virtue using the wall to defend yourself is an exploit because clearly this is not an intended way of killing Absolute Virtue. They used a bug in the monster AI. However, I don't think those people were punished because it was a bit of a gray area. Also, it wasn't kept secret and spammed indefinitely for massive amounts of profit.

Zerging Absolute Virtue was not an exploit. They killed it legitimately. They were not punished. However, the developers did not like the way this was done as it was not how they intended AV to be defeated (and in a stroke of douchebaggery Tanaka's team is notorious for) they changed Absolute Virtue so he could no longer be zerged.

Salvage (which I don't know the details) involved people disbanding or configuring their party in such a way that drops were doubled. This is clearly a glitch. Obvious. Those people caught exploiting it were banned.

Back to XIV-
You have the developers permission to cancel a leve. You have the developers permission to repeat a leve that you have failed. They designed it to be implemented that way. It's not a bug or a glitch. They can't stop us from running the clock out even. If the developers look at this and think "This is not what we intended" they still can't call it an exploit, they simply have to change the parameters of what constitutes a failure, adjust SP rates of leves, or change how to repeat a failed leve.

But honestly (and I've said this before) the system in place is self-punishing. You decide to abandon/repeat leves for maximum Skill Point potential, you forfeit gil (and I get 100,000-300,000 from a leve cycle) and you forfeit Faction credits (No NMs for you). You can't have your cake and eat it, too. At some point - if you want to do NMs or you want to farm some gil - you'll have to switch gears from SP-mode to completing leves. It's self-regulating right now.

I do agree that Craft leves are ridiculous, though. I am a 31 Carpenter and constantly irritated the guild would insult me by offering me 4 R1, R5, R15 and R20. What do they think I do leves for? Maple Logs? Geez - at least make the R1 rewards scaled to MY level so doing them for Oak or Chestnut logs would be more rewarding.

Anyway... I think leves all around don't need to be "random." They should either be set by what the Guild "needs" (which is what random pretends its doing, but if the guild actually ... idk SOLD ****? it might have needs) or just let crafters pick their leves, have multiple choice rewards and call it a day. We're already limited by 8 per cycle. Why am I limited to 1 good Leve out of 8 still? (Same goes for Battle leves).

Yes, I realize it's to slow us down. I just hate these obvious time sink traps. I'm not going to quit the game just because I hit R50. I'm going to level more jobs to R50 (so stop making it so ridiculous).
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