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Can FFXIV Survive Its Player Base?Follow

#102 Dec 21 2010 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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It is what you make it. You know SE doesn't choose the mobs you skill on. They don't make you five shot coblyns.


Sorry I meant there is no real structure. "It is what you make of it" doesn't cut it...not many people can put together a group of 15 randoms and have any strategical structure in a party and quite honestly FFXIV atm doesn't require it...everyone mashes buttons and mobs eventually go down. I think we need structure. SE needs to either limit party members, 15 is way too much, OR they need to make it limited in the sense that any additional members past 6 or 7 in a party will give you less SP bonus (i.e., when they do implement some sort of SP bonus, i.e, NOT talking about fatigue...someone came up with this idea in another thread and thought it was good) and on top of this they need to define jobs a little bit - I LOVE the versatility but if there isn't a harsher penalty from cross class abilities then there is no reason that anyone should have any sort of cure, defend, regen spells on them in leu of their own cast of abilities...I think a Marauder should still play that role and a Gladiator should his role by tanking and choosing skills more efficient to his position - atm this doesn't happen, everyone slaps on a few "must haves" and plays lone wolf in a party setting.
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#103 Dec 21 2010 at 2:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I hope the author doesn't expect us to choose between 2 extreme ends. White knights are shown as people with blind faith and trolls are shown as people who delight in pure chaos and destruction.

Perhaps a bar for the middle ground? Even in politics you have a left to right meter.

I'm a 70% white knight, 30% troll here. But more importantly, I try to base things on facts and not emotional exaggeration, blind extrapolation, assumptions on motivations or causes.

I find it ironic for the players that want the doom of ff14 to linger on ff14 boards. What drives you? Vengeance? or renewed vigor to turn the game you want it to (now that SE is down)? If it is the latter, remaining constructive with a clear direction of what is 'wanted' is what I feel to be a better approach. If its to get more players to abandon the game, please... think again, state facts and refrain from using misinformation.

Judge the new team as a team, not just the head. I saw one of the Vagrant Story team members there, good enough for me until they tell us their 'new plan', I will give them till the end of January for a CLEAR DIRECTION. Of course my personal preference would be Yasumi Matsuno to head the project, but... he is long gone.~



Edited, Dec 21st 2010 4:08am by renmabiao
#104 Dec 21 2010 at 3:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Anurid wrote:


Leve can't reasonably be included in "quest" or "story" categories, however you define them. Leve are "grind", plain and simple.


Really? Cause trading cabbages to that old **** in selbina seemed like way more of a grind than any leve I have done.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#105 Dec 21 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
It is what you make it. You know SE doesn't choose the mobs you skill on. They don't make you five shot coblyns.


Sorry I meant there is no real structure. "It is what you make of it" doesn't cut it...not many people can put together a group of 15 randoms and have any strategical structure in a party and quite honestly FFXIV atm doesn't require it...everyone mashes buttons and mobs eventually go down. I think we need structure. SE needs to either limit party members, 15 is way too much, OR they need to make it limited in the sense that any additional members past 6 or 7 in a party will give you less SP bonus (i.e., when they do implement some sort of SP bonus, i.e, NOT talking about fatigue...someone came up with this idea in another thread and thought it was good) and on top of this they need to define jobs a little bit - I LOVE the versatility but if there isn't a harsher penalty from cross class abilities then there is no reason that anyone should have any sort of cure, defend, regen spells on them in leu of their own cast of abilities...I think a Marauder should still play that role and a Gladiator should his role by tanking and choosing skills more efficient to his position - atm this doesn't happen, everyone slaps on a few "must haves" and plays lone wolf in a party setting.



I don't even play conjurer the same everytime - and I don't want to be forced to. Yes, some skills will be seen to have utility for most everyone to have at one point or another - but I have not yet - EVEN ONCE played with someone who had the same set up as me. I see that as awesome - not as some game killing design flaw. If you want to play a game where everyone has to play one of 8 ways - this is not the game for you.

I have structure in my everyday life. I don't need my videogame telling me what to do. That is why I didn't like LOTRO. That is why I am able to be more forgiving of this game - because it offers me the flexibility I want in a videogame - a job system I can't get anywhere else.

Seriously EVERY other MMO has a very limited selection of skill combos. Why do you want to nerf the strongest point this game has? Is it cause you don't feel like leveling subs? Then don't. You'll have a different playstyle than a pug who does, but who cares?

As for 15 man parties - why would you put up with the hassle of doing that? I play with 1-5 people at a time usually - if you don't think the battle has enough strategy - fight something harder. Who cares if you get a marginal amount more SP doing something that you don't enjoy? I would rather play the game in a way that is fun than make the game something horrible that I want to rush through. Yeah - killing 6000000 coblyns does sound horrible. Don't do it.

[I am not really railing against you Mack.... I just realized I am fully ranting ... sorry]

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 1:19am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#106 Dec 21 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Anurid wrote:


Leve can't reasonably be included in "quest" or "story" categories, however you define them. Leve are "grind", plain and simple.


Really? Cause trading cabbages to that old **** in selbina seemed like way more of a grind than any leve I have done.


The cabbages..... so may cabbages... @.@ and don't forget the millioncorn.
#107 Dec 21 2010 at 3:37 AM Rating: Default
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Edited, Dec 21st 2010 12:41pm by SolidMack
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#108 Dec 21 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Good
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I don't even play conjurer the same everytime - and I don't want to be forced to. Yes, some skills will be seen to have utility for most everyone to have at one point or another - but I have not yet - EVEN ONCE played with someone who had the same set up as me. I see that as awesome - not as some game killing design flaw. If you want to play a game where everyone has to play one of 8 ways - this is not the game for you.


I'm 100% behind this. This is actually WHY I like FFXIV. It truly feels like there are unlimited possibilities. My best friend was one of the best PLD tanks in XI so he chose Gladiator. I was a WHM so I chose Conjurer. He's trying to build the best tank possible, gathering all kinds of traits to help him fight harder and faster and keep more enmity and target more monsters. When I'm with him, we rock. I keep him alive and nuke and he tanks - exactly the party dynamic we wanted.

When I'm alone however (and I can't speak for him cause I don't know he plays alone) I'm totally different. I'm not bound to the weakling WHM I used to be. I rake in solo exp and I nuke my way through leves. ****, I even picked up Gladiator thinking "with this HP & Defense a handful of Cures and Thaum buffs I could be a solo machine" and guess what? I am! It's fun as ****.

I kind cringe at the idea of class-specific skills. It doesn't make sense in this kind of design or structure. I could stomach a few here or there, but I think the vast majority should be as flexible as it is now. I don't want to be penalized for building my ultimate solo Glad-Mage. I don't want to be shackled to party-b*tch-healer the entire time I play Conjurer either.

Much like a post I made elsewhere about SP gain - I really don't get what people want. If you want this game to be more like another game you played, just go play that game and hope that game gets better. You play new games for new experiences. Not to force other games' mechanics on it.

I'm not a White Knight either - in fact my entire last post was what I saw as fundamentally wrong with the entire MMO empire SE has failed to build and why. I just enjoy the game for what it is. I enjoy playing it.

PS: Leves are quests streamlined for your convenience. I lol at people who hate them. I also lol when people say they're bored of them because every SINGLE update to date has added more. Yeah, I've grinded the same couple 300 times but I'm also doing different ones I've never done before regularly, too. I did one today I'd never even heard of (probably added Dec patch).

You people who play or played and cry and moan about things - just figure out what you want and then go find it. I'm sure it's out there for you. It may even be in XIV and you misjudged it, or maybe you should move on. Maybe it will be in XIV in 6 months and you can just hold on a little longer. But honestly, figure out what it is you want cause the kinds of things I hear on the spectrum are pretty ridiculous and borderline pathetic. (See post about people complaining about not getting SP in the very particular manner they wish to get it for evidence).
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#109 Dec 21 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Decent
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PS: Leves are quests streamlined for your convenience. I lol at people who hate them. I also lol when people say they're bored of them because every SINGLE update to date has added more. Yeah, I've grinded the same couple 300 times but I'm also doing different ones I've never done before regularly, too. I did one today I'd never even heard of (probably added Dec patch).


Really, you lol at people who hate them? I hope your jaw doesn't fall off. Smiley: rolleyes You wanna talk, talk. You wanna debate something, do so but do so reasonably. Don't start spewing personal attacks at people because they're not you. I'm sorry I for one hate guildleves. I don't absolutely despise them but they are predictable, repetitive and whether they add 10 or a 100 new ones they are the exact same thing over and over again. Glad you like them, I don't. I don't think the guildleve system as a whole is crap, in fact I think there's potential there but SE needs to be more creative with their leves. I just dislike the ones they have in the game now and for the record they have only added in new leves the last update and tbh I haven't even notice pre-rank 30...
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#110 Dec 21 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
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PS: Leves are quests streamlined for your convenience. I lol at people who hate them. I also lol when people say they're bored of them because every SINGLE update to date has added more. Yeah, I've grinded the same couple 300 times but I'm also doing different ones I've never done before regularly, too. I did one today I'd never even heard of (probably added Dec patch).


Really, you lol at people who hate them? I hope your jaw doesn't fall off. Smiley: rolleyes You wanna talk, talk. You wanna debate something, do so but do so reasonably. Don't start spewing personal attacks at people because they're not you. I'm sorry I for one hate guildleves. I don't absolutely despise them but they are predictable, repetitive and whether they add 10 or a 100 new ones they are the exact same thing over and over again. Glad you like them, I don't. I don't think the guildleve system as a whole is crap, in fact I think there's potential there but SE needs to be more creative with their leves. I just dislike the ones they have in the game now and for the record they have only added in new leves the last update and tbh I haven't even notice pre-rank 30...


Haha I just deleted a huge post that you would have taken as a personal attack (I see now). It was totally not intended to be one, but since I didn't want it to be misconstrued, I just said "ah whatever" and deleted it.

I'm not personally attacking anyone. When someone says "This game needs more content! I hate leves! Bore fest! I wish I could grind whenever I want!" I literally laugh out loud. It's a fact. I was just expressing it. I'm not attacking anyone. On the contrary, I'm saying if you can't find anything you like about XIV then don't play XIV or come back later. I've said it several times in several threads to several people.

Everything I said was true based on my personal experience. You're taking one sentence out of context and pretending I'm personally attacking YOU because you hate leves. Do you also cry about SP gain? Do you cry about the fatigue you've never hit? Leves are quests streamlined. They are also a good way to get SP. If you don't like them, you don't have to do them. You can still get really good skill solo or in small groups.

I don't know why you think I was talking to you. You say you like things about this game (that aren't leves) so I assume that's what you do when you log on. Awesome.
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#111 Dec 21 2010 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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SolidMack wrote:
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I don't even play conjurer the same everytime - and I don't want to be forced to. Yes, some skills will be seen to have utility for most everyone to have at one point or another - but I have not yet - EVEN ONCE played with someone who had the same set up as me. I see that as awesome - not as some game killing design flaw. If you want to play a game where everyone has to play one of 8 ways - this is not the game for you.


Ok buddy, you enjoy zerging


If Zerging is combining a whole bunch of different skills to survive tough fights, then sure, whatever, I like zerging. I am not mindlessly grinding on coblyns for hours. I take on things that challenge me.

My definition of zerging is having fifteen people use profundity and unleashing water II on a ground mob.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#112 Dec 21 2010 at 4:33 AM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
PS: Leves are quests streamlined for your convenience. I lol at people who hate them. I also lol when people say they're bored of them because every SINGLE update to date has added more. Yeah, I've grinded the same couple 300 times but I'm also doing different ones I've never done before regularly, too. I did one today I'd never even heard of (probably added Dec patch).


Really, you lol at people who hate them? I hope your jaw doesn't fall off. Smiley: rolleyes You wanna talk, talk. You wanna debate something, do so but do so reasonably. Don't start spewing personal attacks at people because they're not you. I'm sorry I for one hate guildleves. I don't absolutely despise them but they are predictable, repetitive and whether they add 10 or a 100 new ones they are the exact same thing over and over again. Glad you like them, I don't. I don't think the guildleve system as a whole is crap, in fact I think there's potential there but SE needs to be more creative with their leves. I just dislike the ones they have in the game now and for the record they have only added in new leves the last update and tbh I haven't even notice pre-rank 30...


I have to say the leves change a lot between camps - the rank 30 ones add entire new mechanics not seen in the rank 20 ones. I bet the rank 40s will be different too.

I am not a huge fan of questing, period. So I don't do leves unless I want loot, marks or DoH/DoL SP.

Kirutaru wrote:
Leves are quests streamlined. They are also a good way to get SP. If you don't like them, you don't have to do them. You can still get really good skill solo or in small groups.


This. So much this.

I am not saying that SE shouldn't add more content (outside of leves) but I do think that there are plenty of options if you don't want to do leves.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 2:35am by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#113 Dec 21 2010 at 5:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Glitterhands wrote:
Anyone else noticing the trend here? Anyone who says positive comments about the game has their posts karma-bombed while anyone who says negative comments gets the rate ups. I personally don't care about karma, but it's amusing to see people who's only method of argument is to sub-default all positive comments so they're not viewed by default. If you're going to counterpoint someone, at least have the good grace to do it vocally.

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There's no content at level 1 or any other level. Please tone down the white knightedness.
Right, because there are no story quests (Hint, there is one every 5 ranks), levequests (Hint, you can get these from any of the blue counters) and no diversions in the game at all (Hint, if combat isn't your thing, try crafting). Sorry, but content is things you can do.

If you want to start getting technical, FFXI doesn't really have 'content' until you hit level 30 and start doing some of the proper missions. There are a handful of small quests you can do, and the first couple of story missions (where you don't really engage with much of the story either) most of which revolve around killing a monster and getting a drop.

Of course FFXIV doesn't have all the story missions in it yet. Heck, FFXI went ages before finishing even the Chains of Promathia storyline, and Wings of the Goddess for that matter. Content is something that starts off with in moderation and continues to grow as the game develops. A lot of the trolls make it sound like they expect a wealth of quests and missions from day one, and I don't ever recall ANY MMO having that on release except perhaps Guild Wars.

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We the trolls are not here fighting SE but also fighting the blind white knights who want to pull innocent souls toward their garbage game, I'm an HNM troll and i will not allow any innocent soul to read this thread in case they were wondering if they should play the game or not so I'm here to show the other dark side of this game, The white knights will not take us down and we will fight for equal rights for the sake of humanity since once you play FFXIV your soul is lost forever.
You, the trolls, are wasting your time preaching to players who have already made up their mind, one way or another. You don't like the game, don't play it. You play the game but want to see improvements made to the current issues? Then make a suggestion for SE to take on board.

Why people waste their time complaining about a game they don't play and don't care to play is beyond me. The only reason I can see for it is that they DO enjoy playing the game, they just don't want to mention it in the hopes that their 'tough love' will see SE bow to their whims and add in every little feature they desire. Constructive feedback is always better received than mindless complaining.



I hope you are joking about XI having no content until 30.

I could have sworn there were a ton of quests in each town, I mush have dreamt the warp quest, collecting quadav shells, trading rabbit hares. ****, even make a party of 6 people all of the same race.

There were tons of quests, BCNM and missions that you could take part in straight away.
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#114 Dec 21 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Can FFXIV survive its player base ? If it can it won't be for that same player base. Setting aside all the things that bother me or I like in this game, did anybody read the comments of SE pre release stating that this game was being focussed on solo and small group play ?

The general consencous seems to be that party play isn't challenging or rewarding enough. There's a simple reason for that. SE made all classes able to solo. Unlike in FFXI where you were either superstrong with no defense of very weak with a lot all jobs in here have similiar stats. Therefor it will be very very hard to make parties rewarding in a tactical way. The differences between the classes here is very marginal.

And this is the exact result from that same player base asking for a game that you can solo or only requires a few people to be fully able to participate in all content. So by listening to its player base SE stabbed itself in the back.
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#115 Dec 21 2010 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Everything I said was true based on my personal experience. You're taking one sentence out of context and pretending I'm personally attacking YOU because you hate leves. Do you also cry about SP gain? Do you cry about the fatigue you've never hit? Leves are quests streamlined. They are also a good way to get SP. If you don't like them, you don't have to do them. You can still get really good skill solo or in small groups.

I don't know why you think I was talking to you. You say you like things about this game (that aren't leves) so I assume that's what you do when you log on. Awesome.


I didn't think you were pointing at me, but you're personally attacking somebody, whether you come out and say or you don't. Anyway, that doesn't matter much I was just saying who cares if someone doesn't like something? You make it sound like you have me figured out (unless you're speaking generally here). I'm all pro this game, I have my small gripes with it as anyone with half a brain should but i'm on your side so don't know how you figure you have me all figured out...again, I was just saying there's no reason for someone to like something just cause you think its "funny" if they don't. The leves aren't even great tbh, but like I said I see lots of potential in the system they have in place and I think they'll make something out of it.
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#116 Dec 21 2010 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
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JorieRhand wrote:

And this is the exact result from that same player base asking for a game that you can solo or only requires a few people to be fully able to participate in all content. So by listening to its player base SE stabbed itself in the back.


Whst? wait wait wait.. What? The player base asked for a game that you can solo or party in. So SE said sure. that sounds like fun. And by doing so made this heeping pile of dog crap? ok ok ok... Now god if I could only think of a game like what the player's are looking for that worked. Oh ya WoW. You can solo. you can group. you can raid. Or if you want you can stand around town doing a jig on the mailbox in you undies!

This game wich offers solo/group/raid play is the number 1 MMO of all time. it holds records. Cata that just came out sold 3.1 millon copys on its first day!! The fastest selling PC game of all time

Whats my point? I forgot... Oh ya.. SE did not stab them self in the back by listening to the players. They stabed them self in the back by being greedy jerkoffs who just had to beat Cata/Starwars out the gate. Its not listening to the players that made this game crap. Its SE own greedy corporate stinkhole tactics that made FFXIV the game it is today.
#117 Dec 21 2010 at 6:47 AM Rating: Default
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Hi Sethern,

the last line you qouted out of my post was a final reflection on this one : The general consencous seems to be that party play isn't challenging or rewarding enough. There's a simple reason for that. SE made all classes able to solo. Unlike in FFXI where you were either superstrong with no defense of very weak with a lot all jobs in here have similiar stats. Therefor it will be very very hard to make parties rewarding in a tactical way. The differences between the classes here is very marginal.

I'm not saying that SE made this a worthwhile or good game. Neither am I saying its like cata. I didn't play many other mmo rpg's except for FFXI. I am saying though that a rewarding tactical partyplay is much easier with very defined roles in a party as in FFXI. And since this game is solo/small group based defined roles are close to impossible.

Maybe I should check out Cata or Starwars and see how they managed to make it fulfilling as well solo and in party. Or even better maybe SE should check that out ^^
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#118 Dec 21 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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AceAmallie wrote:
Yes but to fix it on the time table which they adhere to is not a bad thing, worthy of a second chance when all of the issues are being addressed in a timely manner for a company? It is not like they can flip a switch and fix everything. Though the player base is jaded, mean and typically veterans, White Knight or Troll has to see where SE is going is positive, not negative.

The last fires of the trolls are now: Content and Parties. When these things are fixed or whatever they'll bring something else up. Since ward search function essentially makes an AH out of the wards the biggest issue with XIV will disappear in tomorrow's update.


That's what you don't understand; you're trying to act like Square-Enix is a person and that they're trying to turn their life around after making terrible decisions (taking drugs, alcoholism, etc.) and that we should give them another chance as fellow human beings from the bottom of our hearts. Newsflash: Square-Enix is a corporation, not a person.

People are more willing to give game companies multiple chances for their offline games versus online games. Just look in this thread alone along with my own personal views. Mikhalia and I both feel FFXIII was terrible and not worth the purchase; I can't speak for Mikhalia but I personally returned the game after it failed to capture any shred of interest 20 hours in (and if it can't do that within 20 hours, it isn't worth my time). Yet, we're still going to more than likely give FFXV a shot because it's an offline game where if we aren't satisfied we can return it.

You can't do that with MMOs and history in this genre of gaming has shown, every single time, if you release an MMO well before it's ready for the public to tear it apart you've screwed up. You've ruined your maximum potential you could have ever gotten and all of that revenue is lost forever. Word of mouth spreads, and people are not so forgiving of MMOs. The white knights can ignore this fact as much as they want, but it's being shown now that not even the "great" Square-Enix is immune to the rules of MMO launch simply because they also will release on the console.

The fact that you think that all trolls have left to moan about now is 'content' and 'parties' is laughable; it's like you honestly believe everything else is fixed and perfect. And no, search function does *not* cause the wards to act like an AH. Not by a long shot and I'm shocked people are foolish enough to believe it does.
#119 Dec 21 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Anurid wrote:


Leve can't reasonably be included in "quest" or "story" categories, however you define them. Leve are "grind", plain and simple.


Really? Cause trading cabbages to that old **** in selbina seemed like way more of a grind than any leve I have done.



I'm sorry. I know you're probably being tongue-in-cheek or not entirely serious, however that is about as straw man as one can get. You're taking an exception, not the rule, of what a Final Fantasy XI quest was like and trying to use it as an example to justify the simplicity of leves/definition of leves as "quests" with it.

You're free to try and defend the game you enjoy to your heart's content, but the fact of the matter is that by and large, most people who I've seen comment about leves, or quests, or the like really, really do not like how leves are basically the replacement for the typical, traditional quest from FFXI. This becomes an even more glaringly painful omission when you realize that there's a whopping 11 quests in FFXIV at the moment, were one to devote themselves to one job, and did all the main storyline stuff.

(And this isn't even bringing up the issues with the only "quests" in a game either being main storyline ones or job ones.)

I don't care how you cut it or justify it; that's bare bones content right there. When all you got is about 6 storyline quests (compare that to at least 12-15 nation missions at the beginning of FFXI's life, about 3 per rank), something is wrong.

And for every "Give me a bajillion millioncorn to raise fame in every city but Windurst and Mhaura!" quest, there was at least three or four which involved memorable NPCs, or cutscenes when starting/finishing the quests, or something which just plain made you actually enjoy going to the ends of Vana'diel to pick up some little thing shining from a ??? spot (the quests involving tha Bastokan bard come to mind, or the one involving that father and daughter in Bastok wherein you did something to help the father get over the death of his wife).

Did the rewards usually suck? Oh, heck yeah. A pocket full of gil for going all the way to Xarcabard for something seems absolutely ridiculous.

Do leves make the grind easier? Again, heck yeah. They're efficient, they're simple, they give a very respectable reward consisting of modest amounts of gil at later leve ranks, plenty of SP and XP, and a plethora of items, occasional cool equipment (I love my Tarred Walking Hat), and even Guild Marks (though one could argue SE desperately needs to add in stuff for us to buy with them, as they become completely worthless very fast if you don't meet an optimal level, or already have everything you can get with them).

But they're just not a good replacement for ye olde traditional, FFXI-type quest. It was silly of Square-Enix to seemingly make them act as replacements for them, and not as something else entirely.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 9:48am by Satisiun
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Final Fantasy XI Character(s)
Name: Satisiun
Server: Carbuncle (RIP Gilgamesh)
Jobs: 99DRG, 99PLD, 99RDM, 99WHM | Everything else: 50-60
~Retired.~

Final Fantasy XIV Character(s)
Name: Satisiun Desain
Server(s): Sargantas (primary)
DoW/DoM/DoH/DoL: 50
#120 Dec 21 2010 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Can it survive? IDK. That depends. Need a stable economy, we'll be getting a search function...there needs to be a variety of leves added....or something to make leveling a bit more fun other than just grinding two types of mobs and doing leves and behest (I guess that will come over time as the game grows).

I think it may survive. There are a lot of fans sticking with this game for better or worse...so far.
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#121 Dec 21 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

The fact that you think that all trolls have left to moan about now is 'content' and 'parties' is laughable; it's like you honestly believe everything else is fixed and perfect. And no, search function does *not* cause the wards to act like an AH. Not by a long shot and I'm shocked people are foolish enough to believe it does.


So apart from AH and content what else does the game *desperately* need to be a contender in your opinion troll? first of all you make it sound like you're SE themselves and you're sitting here talking about revenue like you give a rats *** and second of all you make it sound like you're the second coming of Jesus and you're failing the game at PS3 launch as if it was in your control. How about trolls be a little more open minded and white knights be a little more open minded and lets settle on some middle ground. FFXIV wont fail but wont be the big success it should've been. If you honestly think this game will fail just sit down on the least populated server and play it over night...its literally etched end to end with Japanese and other over-seas players. With the way they're fixing things up before releasing the PS3 version and the strong brand name backing them I'd be surprised if this game fails...at worst it'll become FFXI (in its success) and that's no mean feat.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 9:56am by SolidMack
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#122 Dec 21 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
You're free to try and defend the game you enjoy to your heart's content, but the fact of the matter is that by and large, most people who I've seen comment about leves, or quests, or the like really, really do not like how leves are basically the replacement for the typical, traditional quest from FFXI. This becomes an even more glaringly painful omission when you realize that there's a whopping 11 quests in FFXIV at the moment, were one to devote themselves to one job, and did all the main storyline stuff.


If it lets you sleep better at night they (SE) did say that the first update of next year will bring with it fetch quests...those most likely being your typical NPC quests. I agree though Guildleves are very repetitive and bland and they need a lot more variety.
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#123 Dec 21 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
I don't even play conjurer the same everytime - and I don't want to be forced to. Yes, some skills will be seen to have utility for most everyone to have at one point or another - but I have not yet - EVEN ONCE played with someone who had the same set up as me. I see that as awesome - not as some game killing design flaw. If you want to play a game where everyone has to play one of 8 ways - this is not the game for you.


Ok buddy, you enjoy zerging, I'm sure we'll get some party structure soon here because as it is partying in this game sucks...there I said it. Am I saying I hate the game? no. In fact I'm enjoying the game a lot right now but I want (and many others want) some form of party structure, in fact when I look around the forums you seem to be the only one against this. Now I never said I want a Conjurer to be placed into a specific role or a thaumaturge or whatever, I don't know where you got that idea, but a little job definition would help big time in forming some structure in party play and like I said maybe smaller party sizes...don't be so close minded to the idea...I don't know how anyone can even enjoy party play atm except for maybe the people doing NM leves and actually strategizing - hey maybe another solution is amping up all mob toughness but that would ***** over solo players.


Why do you constantly insist SE should play daddy to all of us and force us to play a certain way? Build your character the way you feel is appropriate. As long as the people you group with are contributing, it's none of your business what they've equipped on their bars. I'm not sure where you get this notion that because people enjoy the current system that automatically means they're brainless button mashers. If that's the best delusion you've got to prop up your argument, you might as well just stop. "Defining" classes isn't going to prevent that. And I've built my character specifically so that I don't have to play that style of game with the limited selection of abilities I'm given by one class.

Really, grab a clue. Open your eyes. We're given a ton of freedom and all you see is worst case scenarios. It doesn't have to be that way, and there are a lot of people who enjoy borrowing abilities from other classes to enhance their preferred class in a variety of situations from solo to more focused builds for groups. Just because Bob Buttersheep gets under your skin doesn't mean the entire system is bad. Should SE have scrapped the job/subjob system in XI on account of all the WAR/WHMs running around at NA PS3 launch?
#124 Dec 21 2010 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
I don't even play conjurer the same everytime - and I don't want to be forced to. Yes, some skills will be seen to have utility for most everyone to have at one point or another - but I have not yet - EVEN ONCE played with someone who had the same set up as me. I see that as awesome - not as some game killing design flaw. If you want to play a game where everyone has to play one of 8 ways - this is not the game for you.


Ok buddy, you enjoy zerging, I'm sure we'll get some party structure soon here because as it is partying in this game sucks...there I said it. Am I saying I hate the game? no. In fact I'm enjoying the game a lot right now but I want (and many others want) some form of party structure, in fact when I look around the forums you seem to be the only one against this. Now I never said I want a Conjurer to be placed into a specific role or a thaumaturge or whatever, I don't know where you got that idea, but a little job definition would help big time in forming some structure in party play and like I said maybe smaller party sizes...don't be so close minded to the idea...I don't know how anyone can even enjoy party play atm except for maybe the people doing NM leves and actually strategizing - hey maybe another solution is amping up all mob toughness but that would ***** over solo players.


Why do you constantly insist SE should play daddy to all of us and force us to play a certain way? Build your character the way you feel is appropriate. As long as the people you group with are contributing, it's none of your business what they've equipped on their bars. I'm not sure where you get this notion that because people enjoy the current system that automatically means they're brainless button mashers. If that's the best delusion you've got to prop up your argument, you might as well just stop. "Defining" classes isn't going to prevent that. And I've built my character specifically so that I don't have to play that style of game with the limited selection of abilities I'm given by one class.

Really, grab a clue. Open your eyes. We're given a ton of freedom and all you see is worst case scenarios. It doesn't have to be that way, and there are a lot of people who enjoy borrowing abilities from other classes to enhance their preferred class in a variety of situations from solo to more focused builds for groups. Just because Bob Buttersheep gets under your skin doesn't mean the entire system is bad. Should SE have scrapped the job/subjob system in XI on account of all the WAR/WHMs running around at NA PS3 launch?


You aren't being given freedom. You're seeing a developer who was either lazy or confused by simply not putting any thought into how their game should be played. An absence of forethought doesn't equal freedom, mein freund.
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#125 Dec 21 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
You aren't being given freedom. You're seeing a developer who was either lazy or confused by simply not putting any thought into how their game should be played. An absence of forethought doesn't equal freedom, mein freund.


Really? Didn't they tell us the game was going to be about, "Do what you want?" I think they did. In fact, I'm 100% positive that's what they said. And now all the people who can't function without a grownup to guide their steps are all the QQ because nobody is forcing everyone to do things their way.

QQ.

I'm sobbing inside. Really, I am.
#126 Dec 21 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
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568 posts
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Anurid wrote:


Leve can't reasonably be included in "quest" or "story" categories, however you define them. Leve are "grind", plain and simple.


Really? Cause trading cabbages to that old **** in selbina seemed like way more of a grind than any leve I have done.



Sorry but I've had enough of this excuse.

That ONE quest is clearly made for all those who DON'T like to do quests in the first place but still want fame to do other stuff.

Full fame can be acquired in all the main towns without doing THAT quest once.

You've repeatedly complained about that one quest but you don't have to repeat it. Doing so is your own choice.

Even if it's the most convenient way for YOU to get fame still do you really deny that XI is stock full of interesting, complex and compelling quests for those who like to do them?

I see that you like leves, but do you honestly think that they are the reason why this game shouldn't have quest-lines like "Star Onion Brigade"?

If the answer to these two questions is "yes" then I guess we have to agree to disagree.
#127 Dec 21 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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518 posts
When the game came out I was a "White Knight"

"Just wait! The next update will fix that! It'll be addressed! They are going to add more of that! Just wait till the next update!"

Then I moved to the troll camp, because Nov update didn't fix or change anything. It's still the same game, just in different packaging.

I started to like the game as I found a group to rank up with and I had a reason to log on everyday....then SE ****** the SP system and now it's more beneficial for me to solo my leves every 36 hours than get into a massive PT and slaughter lizards.

For about the past two weeks I haven't logged on. I think i logged on for about 1 hour last week, just to stare at the screen and think of other things I could do with my time.

The other day I looked at the login screen for 10 minuets trying to think of a reason I should log in...I couldn't think of one and shut the game down before I even popped in to say hello.

I never felt like that when I played XI. I always wanted to log in and log more and more time...with XIV I just don't feel it. There is no reason to log in, to rank up, to do anything.

If it wasn't for the free period I probably would cancel my account. The ****** thing is I love FF, I've played them all since the first one on NES. I'd rather play FFT on my PSP than this...

If the next great MMO doesn't kill this game, SE will do it by them selves, by making us wait for the "next" fix, or the "next" update...I'm tired of waiting, and so are all my friends who played this game.
#128 Dec 21 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Its funny because the whole concept of trolling has never made any sense to me. If you don't like the game, why are you on these boards?


People like to talk about video games, even if they don't like the games they're discussing. /gasp I mean, why talk about a movie you didn't like, or a book you didn't like? Ridiculous! You can't enjoy talking about something you didn't enjoy!

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but people have always talked about FF games, they will always talk about FF games, and whether they enjoyed them or not, there will always be discussions about FF games. Deal with it, or cry trying.

Quote:
It is what you make it. You know SE doesn't choose the mobs you skill on. They don't make you five shot coblyns.

If you choose to be a slave to SP per hour instead of enjoying the game or even experimenting and enjoying the game - that is your choice.


Pfffffffft. Right now, the combat is not particularly fun, so there's no intrinsic motivation to progress-- fine, lots of games, especially MMOs, rely on extrinsic motivations, rewarding you with gear and levels. If that's the only reason you have to play, of course you're going to pursue them as doggedly as possible.

I don't think you realize that by asking people not to focus on SP/hour, you're basically asking them to give up the only thing about the game they enjoy at all. Just like in XI, players will trend towards what's efficient, even if it's less fun. To ask them not to is to ask them to ignore their psychology, their humanity-- their very desire to play the game at all.

----
I'll gladly be a white knight for this game when (if) it becomes a fair maiden.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#129 Dec 21 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Good
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At this point, no I don't think that it can. I look at the boards, and I see two fairly polarized groups wanting different things. I think that when the dust settles and the game is more or less 'set', one of those groups is going to leave disappointed, and server sizes will be laughable.
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#130 Dec 21 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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91 posts
As a person that stopped playing for a long time due to the horrible state of the game when it was first released, I can say this: I hope the changes SE are trying to make in order to fix the game aren't "too little, too late."

I decided to log on right after the last update. It was the first time in at least a month. I have to say that I was delighted with the changes to the UI speed and other little things. The recent changes in the market wards are much better. However, the one thing that is the most changed is the total lack of people online. The Limsa market wards were a ghost town. The ARM and BSM guide were all but deserted. I couldn't find the crafting materials I wanted to buy, because there was hardly anyone selling crafting materials at all.

At this point I am very confident that SE is on the right track and that the game will turn out to be very fun. But, if there is no one online to play with and stimulate the economy...it won't be fun at all. I was looking forward to this game so much. SE may have blown their chance, but I hope not.
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#131 Dec 21 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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845 posts
JorieRhand wrote:
Can FFXIV survive its player base ? If it can it won't be for that same player base. Setting aside all the things that bother me or I like in this game, did anybody read the comments of SE pre release stating that this game was being focussed on solo and small group play ?

The general consencous seems to be that party play isn't challenging or rewarding enough. There's a simple reason for that. SE made all classes able to solo. Unlike in FFXI where you were either superstrong with no defense of very weak with a lot all jobs in here have similiar stats. Therefor it will be very very hard to make parties rewarding in a tactical way. The differences between the classes here is very marginal.

And this is the exact result from that same player base asking for a game that you can solo or only requires a few people to be fully able to participate in all content. So by listening to its player base SE stabbed itself in the back.


Dont fool yourself SE didnt listen to its player base, the reason the game is solo focused is because the big dogs at SE saw WOWs success and tried to take what they thought was the difference maker in wow and FFXI(bunches of solo content) and add it to their new game. The game is extremely solo friendly because SE thought making it this way would appeal to more people in turn making them more money. It had nothing to do with listening to their customer base, it had to do with trying to steal WOWs.
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#132 Dec 21 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
28 posts
doubleax wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
SephNex wrote:
Remember it was the trolls who brought new development team, all these free months you are enjoying and all the UI enhancements etc

You're delusional. It wasn't the trolls who brought this change. It was the people who were unhappy and gave SE constructive feedback instead of ******** on the forums all day like most of you pathetic trolls.


You are both wrong.

It was the huge number of cancelled accounts and player population dropping every month. No constructive feedback or ******** got SE to do anything. All the ******** and feedback were given to them in beta. Did they listen? No, **** no. It wasn't until it hurt their bottom line before SE kicked it into high gear.

The majority of players gave them feedback. The biggest feedback of all. That's CANCEL ACCOUNT! This is what have gotten the free months, new patch, and new team.


^ It's called voting with your wallet, it tends to work rather well =)

I think the biggest problem they have had is a lack of understanding of the state of the current MMO market, which is really sad because they are a game company that makes MMO's.

I think its indicative of this problem that they seemed to only learn in beta that western players would want to play with a keyboard and mouse set up. Even a small amount of market research would have revealed this before hand. In the same vein that everyone knows you cant release an MMO in the Korean market without a click to move set up and a bill by the hour billing set up. This sort of thing happens all the time to musicians and film makers and pretty much any type of person who does creative work. Either evolve or die, people will vote with their wallets.

Hopefully the change of the guard at SE is more that just for looks and that the new folks will have the power to make the needed changes.
#133 Dec 21 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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seiferdincht wrote:

I see that you like leves, but do you honestly think that they are the reason why this game shouldn't have quest-lines like "Star Onion Brigade"?

If the answer to these two questions is "yes" then I guess we have to agree to disagree.


I don't really like leves. I think I've repeatedly stated that - and at least one time in the very thread. Check out the feedback forum.

How about here: http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1291762643182377225#msg129201199513451256

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
agreed. I am so tired of leves. They all blur into one giant boring leve.


HOWEVER - just cause I don't like leves doesn't mean I am going to deny reality and pretend they are not content. They are not content I generally enjoy - but they ARE content. Just like the cabbage quest - I didn't like it. That doesn't mean it isn't content.

I want more Star Onion Brigade type quests. Let me make that clear. But that doesn't mean I am going to pretend what we have isn't content.

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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#134 Dec 21 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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116 posts
No wonder I try to avoid this place as much as possible. It is filled to the brim with utter morons, many of whom haven't played the game since Beta. Whether or not you like the recent changes, it is pure denial to suggest that SE is ignoring the playerbase. They have acknowledged every major issue, even if they haven't addressed all of them yet.

The game was released with many, many problems. No one has ever denied that fact. You can either resent SE for that indefinitely or you can acknowledge that making all of the necessary changes will take time. ****, it's not like you are even paying to play the game. If you don't like the game, move on. Why are people who quit the game months ago still whining about it, despite having not experienced any of the changes?

The only thing this game really lacks now is content. There isn't a single other issue I can't get past. I don't have impossible standards and I certainly don't expect the perfect game. It is absurd to constantly bash a game that isn't tailored specifically to every single one of your preferences.

People seem to forget that the game is barely 3 months old. I already enjoy it. Whats more, it will get better as more content is added and more issues are addressed.
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#135 Dec 21 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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291 posts
Quote:
HOWEVER - just cause I don't like leves doesn't mean I am going to deny reality and pretend they are not content.


This sentiment is exactly what I "LOL" at - It's not an attack against people. It's FUNNY the amount of people trolling this game, demanding content, demanding SP be better, but all the while saying they hate leves and won't do them. I'm not attacking or even (really) judging them. I just think their requests are ridiculous to the point of laughing.

And its rampant all over this board! Fix SP! Give us content we can do!

Sorry to break it to you, but there is content and there are ways to get decent skill up. It may not be the cookie-cutter MMO some people want it to be - and it may even be tweaked in the long run - but the game (as it is now) can be pretty fun and rewarding.

I also want more Star Onion like quests for immersion. The streamlined-quest (leve) doesn't really flesh out the world as much as I'd hoped it would. I don't even read the flavor text anymore cause it's not particularly interesting. At least there is flavor text, though, to put it in context.
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#136thehellfire, Posted: Dec 21 2010 at 4:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Only if the whiners from 11 quit
#137 Dec 21 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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291 posts
Quote:
Whether or not you like the recent changes, it is pure denial to suggest that SE is ignoring the playerbase. They have acknowledged every major issue, even if they haven't addressed all of them yet.


Really? What have they done due to player feedback?

What immediate changes weren't prompted by losing money?

Do you think they adjusted Market Wards because of our feedback? (If so, where's our AH?) You don't think they had intended to change the Wards gradually over time to meet our needs? You don't think they intended to add more retainers or some semblance of a search feature?

Do you think they added Flan & Goblin because we really wanted them? They didn't intend to release more monster types or more familiar monsters already? Do you think they added NMs because we cried out for them? No, they been saying they're going to add NMs since I was playing Open Beta.

So far they have only updated what they wanted to update and probably already planned to update. I don't really see anywhere how they listened to their player base. They saw everyone quitting and fixed things that should have been fixed. Added things to keep more people from quitting.

This is mostly standard issue SE actions. They word their updates in a way that makes people feel like they've been listened to - or in a reassuring manner to let you know new content and updates are coming - but really, how much of this wasn't already in the works?

There are several surprising things SE has done, but again I assume (based on observation) it was desperate measures to keep shareholders happy and stitch up the gaping wound in the company through which its lifeblood [money] was spilling all over the place.

It's been a long, long time since I felt Square (Enix) cared about the product they released or the player's opinions of their products. They are sadly squandering the loyalty and trust they built up over many years of quality product.
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#138 Dec 21 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Default
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116 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
Whether or not you like the recent changes, it is pure denial to suggest that SE is ignoring the playerbase. They have acknowledged every major issue, even if they haven't addressed all of them yet.


Really? What have they done due to player feedback?

What immediate changes weren't prompted by losing money?


Where's your evidence that it was prompted by losing money? Why are they mutually exclusive? You view things in black and white, it seems. Frankly, it's silly to think that SE were ignoring all of the bad reviews and player feedback until they realised they were losing money. What planet are you living on?

Quote:
Do you think they adjusted Market Wards because of our feedback? (If so, where's our AH?) You don't think they had intended to change the Wards gradually over time to meet our needs? You don't think they intended to add more retainers or some semblance of a search feature?


The one thing they have been steadfast on is their refusal to put in AH. It's telling that you are ignoring the fact that they have added a sort function, given us an extra retainer, tweaked the UI, the chat log, etc etc. They just happened to do all of that by sheer coincidence? It had nothing to do with the mountain of complaints? You're in denial.

Quote:
Do you think they added Flan & Goblin because we really wanted them? They didn't intend to release more monster types or more familiar monsters already? Do you think they added NMs because we cried out for them? No, they been saying they're going to add NMs since I was playing Open Beta.


Once again, viewing things in black and white. Just because every change they made wasn't prompted by feedback, it does not mean that none of the changes were. There's a grey area, and you appear to be oblivious to it.

Quote:

So far they have only updated what they wanted to update and probably already planned to update. I don't really see anywhere how they listened to their player base. They saw everyone quitting and fixed things that should have been fixed. Added things to keep more people from quitting.

This is mostly standard issue SE actions. They word their updates in a way that makes people feel like they've been listened to - or in a reassuring manner to let you know new content and updates are coming - but really, how much of this wasn't already in the works?

There are several surprising things SE has done, but again I assume (based on observation) it was desperate measures to keep shareholders happy and stitch up the gaping wound in the company through which its lifeblood [money] was spilling all over the place.

It's been a long, long time since I felt Square (Enix) cared about the product they released or the player's opinions of their products. They are sadly squandering the loyalty and trust they built up over many years of quality product.


It's like talking to a brick wall. Only made changes to things they intended to? They have acknowledged every major issue the players have brought up. They specifically referenced player feedback. Again, what planet are you living on?

I need to get off of here. Idiots like you will make me say something that will lead to a ban.
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#139 Dec 21 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
ThePacster wrote:
ThadCastle wrote:
it's really sad knowing people are pleased with this game now as they were when it first

was released... it makes me wonder if these people can fully appreciate patches to the game

because they would still be playing this wreck if SE did nothing.



are your expectations for a game released in 2010 so low? its sad you people accept garbage

that's fed to you like this, the game can't recover, its a ghost town now and it will be

that way in a year from now.. sorry *blind knights*


Goodbye then? Or do you have a reason for hanging around forums for a game that "can't recover"? I'm certainly not one to turn a blind eye to problems in this game and will gladly point out what I see is wrong and if possible offer an idea to fix it. But if you think the game is doomed and nothing anyone does will improve it, then there's really nothing to say but leave.


Yeah, while I'm certainly not as thrilled by the game as I'd like to have been, I do wonder why people who honestly believe the game is beyond all hope of redemption are hanging around, except out of boredom.

I mean, I get the notion that people are unhappy and don't want to play until the game gets better; I totally get that.

However, I don't get why, if you honestly and truly believe that you will never want to play and there is nothing SE could ever do to "fix" the game in a way that would make you happy, you would hang out at a FFXIV board, except to troll and waste time.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
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#140 Dec 21 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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12,622 posts
I'm just going to say what we are ALL thinking..

What this game needs is an entire expansion's worth of content before it is a full blown launch MMO. Everything before the first expansion is pretty much a beta. This game has pretty solid mechanics and the fixes to the retainer system are definitely good enough to give it some legs, but there is basically NO content there to hold anyone's attention.

I'm having fun playing this beta, in the meantime, but don't think for a second that I'm the only one who is considering suspending their account until the first expansion comes out once they reach rank 40 or 50 with their char.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Really? Cause trading cabbages to that old **** in selbina seemed like way more of a grind than any leve I have done.


LoL @ comparing optional content in one game to major mechanic in another..

Where's "the guy in Selbina" in FFXIV? Oh, that's right, there isn't one or anything even comparable to it. The electable quests in XIV are, pretty much, nowhere to be seen. Thus your argument, although not intended, UNDERLINES the majority's biggest grief with the game.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 6:06pm by Lefein
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#141 Dec 21 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Lefein wrote:


Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Really? Cause trading cabbages to that old **** in selbina seemed like way more of a grind than any leve I have done.


LoL @ comparing optional content in one game to major mechanic in another..



Quest grinding was a major mechanic in FFXI too. In fact if you wanted to play several jobs you had absolutely NO OPTION but to quest grind. Leves are actually way more optional than quest grinding was in FFXI...

Well unless you never wanted to play white mage (or wanted to play white mage with no teleport scrolls)
Or you never wanted to play NIN (or you wanted to play NIN without Utsemi? Really?)
Or you wanted to play SMN without anything but carby....

How is requiring the trading of god knows how many yagudo necklaces to an npc in order to get a skill which is pretty much the defining skill for your class "an optional mechanic" - was there some non-horrible, grindy way of getting that fame? Cause if there was no one told me about it.

If I don't want to do leves I don't have to. I won't get training manuals as fast (but if I do story quests/job quests I will still get marks) but lets be honest - playing jobs without the guild mark abilities is totally doable.

I want marks so I do leves - and I do them to get easy money - but they are still WAY more optional than horrible fame grinds were in FFXI

[edit]

And even though I am not a huge fan - they are WAY MORE FUN too.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 3:16pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#142 Dec 21 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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thehellfire wrote:
Only if the whiners from 11 quit
-------------------------
TELL SE TO CANCEL RUINOUS PORTS TO CONSOLES,ITS FOR OUR COLLECTIVE GOOD


I added your signature quote too since that is the portion I find very hypocritical.

I am playing the game and finding ways to make it work for me. I played the heck out of XI too.

I will be the first to admit that I miss the cohesive storyline in XI. The ultimate reason to care about the virtual world SE has presented to us.

I view the forums as a place for people to read what others feel about the game. What they enjoy and/or hate. From those posts it allows me to glean things to atttempt to see if it adds to my enjoyment of the game.

I applaud SE for remaining true to its console player base, the people that have purchased their games for many years. To suggest abandoning them sounds like you're whining.

Have as much fun in Eorzea as you can, its free!
#143 Dec 21 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
Quote:
Where's your evidence that it was prompted by losing money? Why are they mutually exclusive? You view things in black and white, it seems. Frankly, it's silly to think that SE were ignoring all of the bad reviews and player feedback until they realised they were losing money. What planet are you living on?


Where's your evidence that it was prompted by user feedback? Where's the feedback that asked for these things? Of course they aren't mutually exclusive, but what caused them to overhaul the game so far? Player unhappiness or losing money? 6 of one & half dozen of the other - but based on my personal experience with Square Enix and observations on the way their public relations I tend to think it was their shareholder meeting where people invested in the company demanded action! more than players crying about SP gain or lack of content. Everything they added (except SP overhaul) I'm sure they intended to add. I'm living on Earth, man, where money guides the actions of corporations.

Quote:
The one thing they have been steadfast on is their refusal to put in AH. It's telling that you are ignoring the fact that they have added a sort function, given us an extra retainer, tweaked the UI, the chat log, etc etc. They just happened to do all of that by sheer coincidence? It had nothing to do with the mountain of complaints? You're in denial.


And if you think they weren't going to add a sort feature anyway, give us more retainers anyway, tweak the UI anyway, fix the chat log anwyay, etc etc - then you're in denial. The reason it happened so fast is because they were bleeding money on the sidewalk. If you think "listening to mountain of complaints" (which SE rarely does in the past) isn't spurned by this absurd loss of revenue you're also in denial.

Quote:
It's like talking to a brick wall. Only made changes to things they intended to? They have acknowledged every major issue the players have brought up. They specifically referenced player feedback. Again, what planet are you living on?


I'm not oblivious to the give and take of this relationship, nor am I to the "grey area." You're the one treating me like I'm talking in Black & White. How do you know player feedback didn't request Goblins? I'm only saying there's NO EVIDENCE feedback had anything to do with changes EXCEPT they changed things right quick when they realized they were going to have to give this game out for free for 3+ months rather than turn a MASSIVE profit on it.

I don't see how you can come on here toting SE listens to players when they had no **** choice other than to change the game because of massive financial failure. They changed things that needed to be changed. They reorganized their development leadership to appease shareholders and "reassure" customers not to quit. They have done a bunch of things to make the game profitable, but what have they added to make the game "fun." All they've done is add content they intended to add and fix things that were absolutely "LOL" worthy to be in a "finished product" at release.

It's not black and white. It's a matter of asking yourself "Are they changing things because we want them changed?" or "Are they changing things so we don't quit and they can sell this product?" All I'm saying (and it's my opinion based on experience) is that I think it's the latter. I see no evidence of catering to player feedback other than what's necessary to save their sinking ship (as well as content they already intended).

I'm still waiting (2 weeks now) on what the new director's vision is. I expect something big, but if I were holding my breath I'd be dead by now.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#144 Dec 21 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
*
116 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
Where's your evidence that it was prompted by losing money? Why are they mutually exclusive? You view things in black and white, it seems. Frankly, it's silly to think that SE were ignoring all of the bad reviews and player feedback until they realised they were losing money. What planet are you living on?


Where's your evidence that it was prompted by user feedback? Where's the feedback that asked for these things? Of course they aren't mutually exclusive, but what caused them to overhaul the game so far? Player unhappiness or losing money? 6 of one & half dozen of the other - but based on my personal experience with Square Enix and observations on the way their public relations I tend to think it was their shareholder meeting where people invested in the company demanded action! more than players crying about SP gain or lack of content. Everything they added (except SP overhaul) I'm sure they intended to add. I'm living on Earth, man, where money guides the actions of corporations.

Quote:
The one thing they have been steadfast on is their refusal to put in AH. It's telling that you are ignoring the fact that they have added a sort function, given us an extra retainer, tweaked the UI, the chat log, etc etc. They just happened to do all of that by sheer coincidence? It had nothing to do with the mountain of complaints? You're in denial.


And if you think they weren't going to add a sort feature anyway, give us more retainers anyway, tweak the UI anyway, fix the chat log anwyay, etc etc - then you're in denial. The reason it happened so fast is because they were bleeding money on the sidewalk. If you think "listening to mountain of complaints" (which SE rarely does in the past) isn't spurned by this absurd loss of revenue you're also in denial.

Quote:
It's like talking to a brick wall. Only made changes to things they intended to? They have acknowledged every major issue the players have brought up. They specifically referenced player feedback. Again, what planet are you living on?


I'm not oblivious to the give and take of this relationship, nor am I to the "grey area." You're the one treating me like I'm talking in Black & White. How do you know player feedback didn't request Goblins? I'm only saying there's NO EVIDENCE feedback had anything to do with changes EXCEPT they changed things right quick when they realized they were going to have to give this game out for free for 3+ months rather than turn a MASSIVE profit on it.

I don't see how you can come on here toting SE listens to players when they had no **** choice other than to change the game because of massive financial failure. They changed things that needed to be changed. They reorganized their development leadership to appease shareholders and "reassure" customers not to quit. They have done a bunch of things to make the game profitable, but what have they added to make the game "fun." All they've done is add content they intended to add and fix things that were absolutely "LOL" worthy to be in a "finished product" at release.

It's not black and white. It's a matter of asking yourself "Are they changing things because we want them changed?" or "Are they changing things so we don't quit and they can sell this product?" All I'm saying (and it's my opinion based on experience) is that I think it's the latter. I see no evidence of catering to player feedback other than what's necessary to save their sinking ship (as well as content they already intended).

I'm still waiting (2 weeks now) on what the new director's vision is. I expect something big, but if I were holding my breath I'd be dead by now.


If they intended to have a sort function, more responsive UI, better chat log, etc. why didnt they simply include those features at the game's release? Your argument makes no sense. Why on earth would they release the game with the intention of fixing such basic features 3 months later? I'm astounded that you think your argument makes any sense. I'll say it again, they specifically referenced player feedback. How can you say that they are ignoring us when they specifically referenced feedback from this and other forums? That makes no sense.
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#145 Dec 21 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
**
291 posts
As I referenced my experiences and observations with Square Enix - usually I use FFXI as a source, but let me throw out a more recent one. Here is an example of what I'm talking about (and I use it often to illustrate how out-of-touch SE is with their fans cause it really ****** me off).

In an interview with a high-up Square Enix guy (not Wada himself, sadly) he was asked why there's no work on the Chrono (Trigger) series. I think the complex answer is that it's complicated due to reorganization of teams at Square Enix... but he said something along the lines of ...

---
Why does everyone always ask about Chrono Trigger? (< Mountains of Feedback)

If sales of Chrono Trigger DS have anything to say about it, there is no interest in the Chrono Trigger series, so we have no interest in producing it at this time. (< prime example of Square Enix market research & analysis).
---

So this (among countless other examples) tells me that Square Enix isn't concerned about what fans or players want as much as they are concerned about how much money they can make off a product. It's also ridiculous to think that the 2nd port (PS1 in 1999/2001; DS in 2008) has any bearing on how well received a game made (in 1995) was or how much fans of that original game would pay for a true sequel. A quick Google search is better than their market analysts. Anyway, that's a different subject.

The way SE runs now though, they'd probably make Chrono Trigger 2 (or 3 depending) with amazing graphics, simple mechanics, terrible story and uninspired characters then go "SEE! We told you no one would like it!" Just like they tried to tell me they made FF13 knowing "not everyone would like it" which made me laugh and cry simultaneously.

Clearly sales of Chrono Trigger (port #2) influence the future of the series more than customer feedback or demand for such a thing.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#146 Dec 21 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Default
*
116 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
As I referenced my experiences and observations with Square Enix - usually I use FFXI as a source, but let me throw out a more recent one. Here is an example of what I'm talking about (and I use it often to illustrate how out-of-touch SE is with their fans cause it really ****** me off).

In an interview with a high-up Square Enix guy (not Wada himself, sadly) he was asked why there's no work on the Chrono (Trigger) series. I think the complex answer is that it's complicated due to reorganization of teams at Square Enix... but he said something along the lines of ...

---
Why does everyone always ask about Chrono Trigger? (< Mountains of Feedback)

If sales of Chrono Trigger DS have anything to say about it, there is no interest in the Chrono Trigger series, so we have no interest in producing it at this time. (< prime example of Square Enix market research & analysis).
---

So this (among countless other examples) tells me that Square Enix isn't concerned about what fans or players want as much as they are concerned about how much money they can make off a product. It's also ridiculous to think that the 2nd port (PS1 in 1999/2001; DS in 2008) has any bearing on how well received a game made (in 1995) was or how much fans of that original game would pay for a true sequel. A quick Google search is better than their market analysts. Anyway, that's a different subject.

The way SE runs now though, they'd probably make Chrono Trigger 2 (or 3 depending) with amazing graphics, simple mechanics, terrible story and uninspired characters then go "SEE! We told you no one would like it!" Just like they tried to tell me they made FF13 knowing "not everyone would like it" which made me laugh and cry simultaneously.

Clearly sales of Chrono Trigger (port #2) influence the future of the series more than customer feedback or demand for such a thing.


Poor logic. You cannot use one or even a dozen examples and assume that it will always be the same, particularly when everything points to the contrary. Firstly, what you are saying lacks any common sense. We know why the UI was the way it was and it had nothing to do with them intending to fix it 3 months later. Secondly, they referenced player feedback specifically (for the umpteenth time). They demonstrated an awareness of player unrest and the issues causing said unrest; therefore, it makes no sense to state that they are ignoring us.
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#147 Dec 21 2010 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
**
291 posts
Quote:
If they intended to have a sort function, more responsive UI, better chat log, etc. why didnt they simply include those features at the game's release? Your argument makes no sense. Why on earth would they release the game with the intention of fixing such basic features 3 months later? I'm astounded that you think your argument makes any sense. I'll say it again, they specifically referenced player feedback. How can you say that they are ignoring us when they specifically referenced feedback from this and other forums? That makes no sense.


Maybe because no one on the team played the game and saw what a piece of crap it was.

You think they intended FFXIV to run without item sort? lol
Really? That's your argument? They released it with no sort, so obviously they meant for it to not have sort?

How about: the game was rushed, they listened to very little player feedback from the open beta (why they even had one is beyond me) because the game was probably already being packaged and ready to ship and everything that sucked about the game could have been fixed before retail if they had pulled back on the reigns and finished the game properly.

Are you the only one who thinks the game was released exactly as they intended the game to be and our (beloved) feedback is what caused them to change these things?

Your argument doesn't really make sense to me anymore. You can attempt to correct it, but I made my points and I have my own conclusions.

PS:
You don't have to call me names to get your points across, by the way.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#148 Dec 21 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
I'm only saying there's NO EVIDENCE feedback had anything to do with changes...


FROM THE FEEDBACK FORUMS/PATCH NOTES

BartelX wrote:
I'm being as rational as I can about this, but are you @#%^ing kidding me? A mob that can literally SPAM a move that does 1-2.5k damage to everyone in a pretty big vicinity... what the heck is up with that? God forbid I try to do a leve at higher than 1 star and face the wrath of Impish Incantions. It's pretty ridiculous that a party of 3 r28 players wipes on a 2 star leve because the **** imp decides to spam this move back to back and massacre us. There is no reason for this move to be as strong as it is. There is no strategy involved in this other than zerg as fast as possible and pray that it fails. It needs to be fixed.


http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=129152741173746601&page=1

Lodestone wrote:
*Battle
The potency of the ability Impish Incantations, used by monsters of the imp genus, has been adjusted.


http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=e9e976fd34cacd564cb8e9d862b2c75c9b8d356f

BrannonGalvalnor wrote:
I'll apologize if this has been already posted, but I thought it would be a good idea if we have to constantly put up with needing to repair our gear to get the maxiumum benefit out of our stuff. You know how when we're looking to sell our goods or seeking to buy specific stuff? We bazaar it (on ourselves or our retainers) and then you see the little bag icon next to the name indicating that person wants to deal with some selling and/or buying.

How about we have a UNIQUE repair needed icon next to the name, specifically for people seeking repairs?


Lodestone wrote:
Using the Seek Repairs option now toggles a specific icon next to the player's display name.


http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=118361d49c4585897065ce5c7d870ca7878fddac

Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Please don't limit NMs to guildleves - since where is the fun in that? The whole fun of NMs was the randomness factor. Boss fights are cool but they are not the same thing.


http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=128459132319617545#msg128465206849388683

Lodestone wrote:
Mini Q&A
Q.

So far you have only mentioned NMs featured in levequests. Will there be any notorious monsters freely roaming the fields and forests of Eorzea?
A.

Most definitely! And a topics post covering these new NMs is on its way.


http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=c19faf5cfe02fe5a121c9d162bcc6086ca9da632

Those are just a few examples - clear evidence IN FACT, that I have noted.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#149 Dec 21 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
It's easy to reference player feedback specifically in hindsight.

They made some huge errors. Players complained up and down. They intended to fix errors (regardless of complaints) so they cite feedback to say "Look! We're listening! Don't quit! We all have expensive mouths to feed!"

Saying players wanted better so they made the game better is all you're saying.

All I'm saying is they made the game better so they could turn a financial catastrophe into something profitable.

What's the argument about again? Why are you so set on "proving" me wrong (with no evidence).

It's just a matter of perspective mixed with opinion.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#150 Dec 21 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
*
116 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
If they intended to have a sort function, more responsive UI, better chat log, etc. why didnt they simply include those features at the game's release? Your argument makes no sense. Why on earth would they release the game with the intention of fixing such basic features 3 months later? I'm astounded that you think your argument makes any sense. I'll say it again, they specifically referenced player feedback. How can you say that they are ignoring us when they specifically referenced feedback from this and other forums? That makes no sense.


Maybe because no one on the team played the game and saw what a piece of crap it was.

You think they intended FFXIV to run without item sort? lol
Really? That's your argument? They released it with no sort, so obviously they meant for it to not have sort?

How about: the game was rushed, they listened to very little player feedback from the open beta (why they even had one is beyond me) because the game was probably already being packaged and ready to ship and everything that sucked about the game could have been fixed before retail if they had pulled back on the reigns and finished the game properly.

Are you the only one who thinks the game was released exactly as they intended the game to be and our (beloved) feedback is what caused them to change these things?

Your argument doesn't really make sense to me anymore. You can attempt to correct it, but I made my points and I have my own conclusions.

PS:
You don't have to call me names to get your points across, by the way.


I didn't insult you to get my point across. I just find your argument frustrating.

No one is denying that they didn't listen to feedback in Beta, but they have clearly demonstrated that they have listened to feedback since. Do you not read Lodestone updates? Is it just a coincidence that they have addressed every major issue discussed on the forums? You cannot seriously believe that they released the game with the intention of making so many changes within the first 3 months of release. That is plainly absurd.
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#151 Dec 21 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
*
116 posts
Kirutaru wrote:
It's easy to reference player feedback specifically in hindsight.

They made some huge errors. Players complained up and down. They intended to fix errors (regardless of complaints) so they cite feedback to say "Look! We're listening! Don't quit! We all have expensive mouths to feed!"

Saying players wanted better so they made the game better is all you're saying.

All I'm saying is they made the game better so they could turn a financial catastrophe into something profitable.

What's the argument about again? Why are you so set on "proving" me wrong (with no evidence).

It's just a matter of perspective mixed with opinion.


We're showing you evidence. You just refuse to accept it.
____________________________


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