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Can FFXIV Survive Its Player Base?Follow

#302 Dec 29 2010 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
I'm not sure if it was you in this thread that stated that FFXIII and FFXIV used the same engine. Regardless we know FFXIV is coming to the PS3 at 720p. Now prior to the game launching on PC, these forums were filled with people that bashed the PS3 and said the overall hardware and more importantly the "CELL" was never that great. So my point is this. Why is it so hard to program a game that runs perfectly fine on the PS3 system(XIII) yet requires current $500 GPU's to have a similar experience on PC? Shouldn't the new crop of systems totally blow away the out-dated PS3 hardware? Yet a 720p FFXIII(identical to the FFXIV engine) that somehow uses the same engine flawlessly pulls it off without a hitch.

You can't compare the CELL architecture with PC's because they're vastly different. The reason it's so hard to port from console to PC is because of the way consoles render their graphics. It's really not as simple as saying, "My PC has better specs than a PS3 so it should play it better". Look up the CELL architecture. You'll see that it's a CPU-dependent system, and not only that, but it processes data in a linear way, which is the opposite of a PC's processor which computes variably. The CELL posts most processing jobs, including graphics, to its processor instead of its GPU (consoles have really weak GPU's). This allows them to simulate next-gen graphics without the need to upgrade the GPU, similar to assigning a primary GPU for normal graphics and a second GPU for PhysX on a PC with two PCI-E slots, where the primary GPU is the equivalent of the CELL and the secondary GPU is the equivalent of the PS3's GPU. That said, PC CPU's have a difficult time rendering data this way because of the way they're designed.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
The point of this is simple. Next gen pc games require more horsepower to overcome for **** poor coding. People love to diss console systems because they are static and can't be upgraded beyond the HDD. Yet games such as FFXI(PS2), God of War(PS2), and the Uncharted(PS3) series push the boundaries of those so-called limits. For example, the Ps2 only has 4mb of VRAM. Yet it somehow able to display FFXI at all is a master display in programming skills. You can make all the excuses you want blaming drivers for every problem that crops up, but why is you need a 10x more powerful system compared to hardware specs of a console to get a similar experience.

Read above. It's a coding problem, sure. But it's a coding problem that spans multiple companies and multiple games, not just Square.

As far as your statement of "requires $500 GPU," there goes another exaggeration. A $65 8800 GT can run this game at standard settings perfectly fine.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 7:32pm by SoumaKyou
#303 Dec 29 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:

You're citing a problem that's present in every new-gen PC game. I played FFXI at release too, and I was still on a P4 with a GeForce4 Ti4200 that ran previous games flawlessly but struggled on XI. My next PC struggled to play Crysis, and my current PC struggles to play Metro 2033. It's the way PC games are. Newer games will always push the limits of current computers. This is old news, and you can't place the blame on a single game for this.


I'm not sure if it was you in this thread that stated that FFXIII and FFXIV used the same engine. Regardless we know FFXIV is coming to the PS3 at 720p. Now prior to the game launching on PC, these forums were filled with people that bashed the PS3 and said the overall hardware and more importantly the "CELL" was never that great. So my point is this. Why is it so hard to program a game that runs perfectly fine on the PS3 system(XIII) yet requires current $500 GPU's to have a similar experience on PC? Shouldn't the new crop of systems totally blow away the out-dated PS3 hardware? Yet a 720p FFXIII(identical to the FFXIV engine) that somehow uses the same engine flawlessly pulls it off without a hitch.

The point of this is simple. Next gen pc games require more horsepower to overcome for **** poor coding. People love to diss console systems because they are static and can't be upgraded beyond the HDD. Yet games such as FFXI(PS2), God of War(PS2), and the Uncharted(PS3) series push the boundaries of those so-called limits. For example, the Ps2 only has 4mb of VRAM. Yet it somehow able to display FFXI at all is a master display in programming skills. You can make all the excuses you want blaming drivers for every problem that crops up, but why is you need a 10x more powerful system compared to hardware specs of a console to get a similar experience.


I'm not going to claim that the Crystal Tools engine is optimized properly for PC, but after all this time seeing people trying to compare PS3 to PC and "if it runs on PS3 why PC so much blah blah blah"...pay attention, would ya?

PS3 is optimized for gaming. PCs are not. Your run of the mill PC is set up for multimedia and middle of the road games. You can't compare hardware on a one-to-one basis. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses. For the PS3, as we're seeing, a glaring weakness is a tragic shortage of memory, hence why SE was having to work to scale down texture resolutions and why we've got a copy pasta world and all that other stuff. Stop trying to compare a gaming console to what originated as and still to large extent remains a tool for business. PCs are about number crunching and video and web browsing. As soon as you start trying to convince a PC to run high end graphics applications you start talking about $$$ whether you're doing high resolution 3D modeling or gaming. I use AutoCAD an awful lot and when it comes to actually rendering anything, my PC likes to bog down fairly heavily. Why does a Porsche go faster than a tractor trailer? The tractor trailer has room for an engine 8 times the size of a Porsche. Oh...different purpose.

Get it?
#304 Dec 29 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:

You can't compare the CELL architecture with PC's because they're vastly different. The reason it's so hard to port from console to PC is because of the way consoles render their graphics. It's really not as simple as saying, "My PC has better specs than a PS3 so it should play it better". Look up the CELL architecture. You'll see that it's a CPU-dependent system, and not only that, but it processes data in a linear way, which is the opposite of a PC's processor which computes variably. The CELL posts most processing jobs, including graphics, to its processor instead of its GPU (consoles have really weak GPU's). This allows them to simulate next-gen graphics without the need to upgrade the GPU, similar to assigning a primary GPU for normal graphics and a second GPU for PhysX on a PC with two PCI-E slots, where the primary GPU is the equivalent of the CELL and the secondary GPU is the equivalent of the PS3's GPU. That said, PC CPU's have a difficult time rendering data this way because of the way they're designed.


So what is your point? PC games require insane amounts of technology to overcome the inferior design established by the PC interface. It's like your making excuses as to why the PS3 is capable of awesome graphics. With the emphasis on graphics these days even on the OS, why are PC systems created to be inferior still? I find it sad that a stock "out-dated" PS3 cell processor blows away much of what a PC does for far less money. You can make excuses that the PC renders differently or whatever floats your boat, but the point is the money involved to upgrade a PC isn't justified by the cost. Don't give me that crap that a PC does more either. You don't need a PC valued on the internet at $1500+ to do 99% of things people use a PC for in the first place. So essentially you're paying 200 bucks here and 500 buck there just to produce an inferior system that doesn't render graphics good enough to compete with a console. Fail.. If it takes me $1,500 in parts to beat a "stock" PS3 that costs $299, something is dreadfully wrong. It seems to me that the gaming rigs should exceed the PS3 easily without equal and for less money than they require now. Yet the flawed archetype system that renders graphics for the PC requires so much horsepower to produce similar results as an out-dated console. Simple logic dictates that a gaming rig should process data similar to a console, don't you think?

Quote:

Read above. It's a coding problem, sure. But it's a coding problem that spans multiple companies and multiple games, not just Square.

As far as your statement of "requires $500 GPU," there goes another exaggeration. A $65 8800 GT can run this game at standard settings perfectly fine.


My PS2 ran FFXI perfectly fine too when it wasn't during Dynamis and other laggy activities. You have no basis for comparison to suggest how a 8800 GT will perform decent enough during similar events. We all know the FFXIV servers are very low compared to projections. So how can you say that a 8800 GT will be ok to run the game if we only have a sample of what content the game has to offer? Oh, and then we have your "driver" problem. I had that problem with FFXI many times with my Nvidia drivers. It stands to reason more power is better, less is not because of the crutch(system requirements) that render the game's graphics.

I'm starting to believe you're nothing more than a SE fanboy. I understand what you're saying, but you're quick to make strawman statements that the 8800 GT can play FFXIV fine yet we both know the servers are barren and lacking multi-player laggy endgame content. You know full well that the 8800 GT will bog down to a pathetic frame rate should FFXIV introduce something with the size and scale of Dynamis. That's all I want you to admit instead of sounding like a SE PR person.
#305 Dec 29 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

PS3 is optimized for gaming. PCs are not. Your run of the mill PC is set up for multimedia and middle of the road games. You can't compare hardware on a one-to-one basis. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses. For the PS3, as we're seeing, a glaring weakness is a tragic shortage of memory, hence why SE was having to work to scale down texture resolutions and why we've got a copy pasta world and all that other stuff. Stop trying to compare a gaming console to what originated as and still to large extent remains a tool for business. As soon as you start trying to convince a PC to run high end graphics applications you start talking about $$$ whether you're doing high resolution 3D modeling or gaming. I use AutoCAD an awful lot and when it comes to actually rendering anything, my PC likes to bog down fairly heavily. Why does a Porsche go faster than a tractor trailer? The tractor trailer has room for an engine 8 times the size of a Porsche. Oh...different purpose.

Get it?


I get it Aurelius. I so wish we could install an extra gig of ram into our PS3's RAM so we could run circles around your much hyped gaming rig in 1080p. Now because PC games have become so popular over the years, the graphics have increased just like consoles. Yet a gaming rig that is created for that main purpose is flawed out of the gate because of PC architecture. There is nothing wrong with the PS3 except for its age. The difference here is that a PC ages even worse than a console for gaming apps.

Quote:
PCs are about number crunching and video and web browsing.


Last time I checked the PS3 can browse the web, stream videos, and much more. I know cheap netbooks that do the same thing as you listed. The point is why should you invest mega $$$$ on a PC which is an inferior medium for rendering graphics. Wouldn't it be more cost effective to buy/build a PC that handles the number crunching stuff as you say and leave consoles to handle the hardcore games? It's too bad the PS3's BLu-ray drive drove up costs and led to less ram on the system. I could imagine a PS3 with 1.5gig of ram blowing away your rig Aur for far less money.
#306 Dec 29 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Last time I checked the PS3 can browse the web, stream videos, and much more. I know cheap netbooks that do the same thing as you listed. The point is why should you invest mega $$$$ on a PC which is an inferior medium for rendering graphics. Wouldn't it be more cost effective to buy/build a PC that handles the number crunching stuff as you say and leave consoles to handle the hardcore games? It's too bad the PS3's BLu-ray drive drove up costs and led to less ram on the system. I could imagine a PS3 with 1.5gig of ram blowing away your rig Aur for far less money.


Why buy a vehicle that can go 180 kph if the highest speed limit in the country is 110? Can a PS3 run AutoCAD? Again...different purpose. I built an above average PC because I had an idea for a business that I couldn't even begin to follow through on without hands on experience with some of the things I put into my PC. Other people have other reasons for spending what some would seem an excessive sum on a PC. It's like any other hobby. There's no objective rationale behind why people spend the money they spend. Why spend $50 for two movie tickets and some snacks when you can wait a few months and download it through Netflix and throw down $4 for a bag of microwave popcorn and a bottle of soda?

Does it matter? These narrow minded arguments just get really old. Why can you folks never see the bigger picture? Why does everything boil down to your way of looking at things based on your criteria and everything else is peripheral and inconsequential? Big picture thinking is all I really ask for. Was there even a point to your whole schtick or were you just wanting to dredge up the QQ uber-high PC requirements deal again? I can't tell.
#307 Dec 29 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Shadow, I'm not gonna take the time to address your issues quote by quote, but I'll go ahead and tell you that you have the problem of believing what you want to believe, regardless of the facts. No one's making excuses for anything except for you. What I stated are facts about the differences between the systems and why games perform differently. Ports are games with code that's adapted to work with PC's, but they're not complete rewrites. That's where the problems lie, and not because of whatever conspiracy theory you can come up with. It's as simple as the amount of resources it would take to completely overhaul a game just to play perfectly on every system. You'll argue that games port well between consoles, but really, console architecture is largely the same between each other, while PC architecture is a completely different platform altogether. You want to blame Square for this, but I want you to get out of your anti-Square bubble and take a look at other ported games from other companies and prove to me that they don't face the same problems. I can link you to many discussions regarding these problems, and I bet you'll swear you're reading about FFXIV.

Keep calling me a fanboy, but I'm the one providing the facts here, not you. You're just finding excuses as to why FFXIV won't run on your system, when it's perfectly clear you don't know the first thing about the systems you're comparing. The only person here who's making straw man arguments is you (and that other guy before you). Look up what straw man means.

As far as the 8800 GT goes, if it's consistently running at 30 fps in a crowded town, it's safe to say it'll run well enough during an end-game event.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 10:54pm by SoumaKyou

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 10:57pm by SoumaKyou
#308 Dec 29 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

Why buy a vehicle that can go 180 kph if the highest speed limit in the country is 110? Can a PS3 run AutoCAD? Again...different purpose. I built an above average PC because I had an idea for a business that I couldn't even begin to follow through on without hands on experience with some of the things I put into my PC. Other people have other reasons for spending what some would seem an excessive sum on a PC. It's like any other hobby. There's no objective rationale behind why people spend the money they spend. Why spend $50 for two movie tickets and some snacks when you can wait a few months and download it through Netflix and throw down $4 for a bag of microwave popcorn and a bottle of soda?

Does it matter? These narrow minded arguments just get really old. Why can you folks never see the bigger picture? Why does everything boil down to your way of looking at things based on your criteria and everything else is peripheral and inconsequential? Big picture thinking is all I really ask for. Was there even a point to your whole schtick or were you just wanting to dredge up the QQ uber-high PC requirements deal again? I can't tell.


Why can't you see beyond your narrow minded thinking Aur. You like to bring up the several facets of what a PC does, but in reality, you don't need to spend(or upgrade/install) for those functions. Like you said, it's a hobby and that's fine. My point here on the PC vs console debate is I'm sick of people like yourself who took cheap shots at the PS3. Yet now that I'm taking shots back at the PC claiming it's far from perfect, you chime in on the thread to offer your 2 cents.

Don't give me that **** and bull story about you building your pc for a business. I followed your blog and I'm just going to leave it at that. I wasn't born yesterday, sorry.

I'm thinking of the big picture here. Most people don't need a PC for those high end apps that you supposedly run. So it's merely their hobby to spend excess money for nothing beyond self-indulgence which is my problem with people like you. I'll never claim that the PC and consoles so the same thing. However, when their paths cross, you can't tout all the superior benefits of PC's without being impartial to address their flaws. The fact that you need to spend 3x the money to get a similar experience for FFXIV compared to the Ps3 version should speak volumes for most people. Like most people(you know the majority), they only use their PC's to pay their bills, surf, watch movies, burn discs, etc.. and yes play games. I think the problem I have with people like yourself is you think that because PC's have the potential to do so much more than just play games, it's a better investment. That might be true for you, but you're the minority, not the majority. If you keep coming back with a condescending tone, I'm going to throw it right back at you.
#309 Dec 29 2010 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Shadow, I'm not gonna take the time to address your issues quote by quote, but I'll go ahead and tell you that you have the problem of believing what you want to believe, regardless of the facts. No one's making excuses for anything except for you. What I stated are facts about the differences between the systems and why games perform differently. Ports are games with code that's adapted to work with PC's, but they're not complete rewrites. That's where the problems lie, and not because of whatever conspiracy theory you can come up with. It's as simple as the amount of resources it would take to completely overhaul a game just to play perfectly on every system. You'll argue that games port well between consoles, but really, console architecture is largely the same between each other, while PC architecture is a completely different platform altogether. You want to blame Square for this, but I want you to get out of your anti-Square bubble and take a look at other ported games from other companies and prove to me that they don't face the same problems. I can link you to many discussions regarding these problems, and I bet you'll swear you're reading about FFXIV.

Keep calling me a fanboy, but I'm the one providing the facts here, not you. You're just finding excuses as to why FFXIV won't run on your system, when it's perfectly clear you don't know the first thing about the systems you're comparing. The only person here who's making straw man arguments is you (and that other guy before you). Look up what straw man means.

As far as the 8800 GT goes, if it's consistently running at 30 fps in a crowded town, it's safe to say it'll run well enough during an end-game event.


What conspiracy theory are you referring? All I'm saying here is that SE is not very good at porting game to PC and that only reinforces my statement that FFXIV requires more horsepower to play without lagging. Of course other games made by different publishers run into a snag too, but SE is a company that has never produced a single PC port worth a ****. The drivers with certain games might not work today, but they'll probably get fixed as time goes on. I strongly doubt FFXIV will ever run as smooth as most of these games. I agree with a lot of your points though. I disagree ever with your assessment of the 8800 GT. We have no idea how FFXIV will play during laggy congested zones. Part of the problem is the drivers you keep referencing which is a good point. However, you seem to assume that just because the 8800 GT works well enough now, it's a given that it will be top-notch down the road without turning off all the effects. FFXIV is poorly coded and Nvidia drivers tend to suck. We both agree on those 2 facts so let's just drop this.
#310 Dec 29 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Default
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
What conspiracy theory are you referring? All I'm saying here is that SE is not very good at porting game to PC and that only reinforces my statement that FFXIV requires more horsepower to play without lagging. Of course other games made by different publishers run into a snag too, but SE is a company that has never produced a single PC port worth a ****. The drivers with certain games might not work today, but they'll probably get fixed as time goes on. I strongly doubt FFXIV will ever run as smooth as most of these games. I agree with a lot of your points though. I disagree ever with your assessment of the 8800 GT. We have no idea how FFXIV will play during laggy congested zones. Part of the problem is the drivers you keep referencing which is a good point. However, you seem to assume that just because the 8800 GT works well enough now, it's a given that it will be top-notch down the road without turning off all the effects. FFXIV is poorly coded and Nvidia drivers tend to suck. We both agree on those 2 facts so let's just drop this.

Square has never made a good PC port because no one makes good PC ports. Playable? Sure. Completely adapted? Never happened. At least not without a plethora of patches, which is what we're seeing here. Like I said, it's nothing new and it's not just Square. This is the conspiracy theory I'm talking about. You make it seem like Square's the only company who sucks at porting. ****, it's hard enough for companies to port between PC and Mac, let alone XBOX 360, PS3, and/or Wii to PC. That's the beauty of PC games, though. Despite all the bugs, they're designed for improvement. All of them - at least the ones with online access anyway. Patches are there to fix bugs, drivers are there to increase compatibility and performance, it's just how it works and you complaining about things like these really has no merit outside of trying to find something to complain about.

You're also underestimating the 8800 GT. It was a mid-budget video card that vastly outperformed the cards in its price range. ****, it's so powerful that it's running BF2 at very, very playable frames per second. I'm gonna go ahead and make the claim that being able to play BF2 at acceptable levels is MUCH harder on a video card than trying to play FFXIV, and the 8800 GT does it wonderfully. That's a game that has 32 players running around onscreen, explosions and gunfire everywhere, with destructible environments. I guarantee that's much tougher for a card to process, and if the 8800 GT can do that, it can handle FFXIV.
#311 Dec 29 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Why can't you see beyond your narrow minded thinking Aur. You like to bring up the several facets of what a PC does, but in reality, you don't need to spend(or upgrade/install) for those functions. Like you said, it's a hobby and that's fine. My point here on the PC vs console debate is I'm sick of people like yourself who took cheap shots at the PS3. Yet now that I'm taking shots back at the PC claiming it's far from perfect, you chime in on the thread to offer your 2 cents.

Don't give me that **** and bull story about you building your pc for a business. I followed your blog and I'm just going to leave it at that. I wasn't born yesterday, sorry.


I don't recall ever having commented on the purpose of the PC in that blog. That was a build blog, nothing more, nothing less. I don't think you're understanding what I'm talking about when I say I built it in large part for hands on experience to put towards a business venture. I'm not talking about having built a PC for spreadsheets and databases. I'm talking about designing and building cases for high end PCs with an initial focus on PCs with custom water cooling installations. That's not something I could do having never done a custom water cooling build. Now I've done one. Now I have hands on experience with the challenges of fitting pumps and radiators and coolant tubing in a case designed for the industry standard air cooling installations. And now I have a preliminary design and am in the process of retooling a shop to work with sheet aluminum and expensive acrylic sheet. And because I now have a reasonably beastly rig upon which to run AutoCAD, I can do design work and render those designs and see how things will look and move around relatively complex objects before I start dulling $30 router bits on aluminum and carving up acrylic at $200/sheet. And when I'm done with the design work and rendering and browsing and arguing with twits on ZAM, I can run most games at pretty decent settings and things are smooth and pretty and yay. And because so much of the PC gets used for business purposes, half of what I spent is tax free. Double yay.

And you can't do a fraction of that on a PS3. I don't take shots at people who prefer the PS3. I don't care what platform you prefer to play on or why. What I care about is when my gaming experience is limited because someone is playing on an inferior system that places limitations on the scope of the game as a whole that I have to share. Copy pasta terrain doesn't really ruin my day. A world filled with reskins of a dozen or so mobs starts to get old after a while. Loading screens in a genre that did away with loading screens years ago start to get old. But I don't turn that into justification to try and cut down PS3 players. I see a lot of uptight ninnies stamping their feet and squealing with rage when it's pointed out that the game is already being influenced by "PS3 limitations" even though the PS3 version is still months and months away. I'm not the thin skinned monkey here, and you might want to just take a step back and get your dork hat on straight before you go off on another "lewlewl PC r dumb" tirade. It's not a competition. Don't make it one.
#312 Dec 30 2010 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:

And you can't do a fraction of that on a PS3. I don't take shots at people who prefer the PS3. I don't care what platform you prefer to play on or why. What I care about is when my gaming experience is limited because someone is playing on an inferior system that places limitations on the scope of the game as a whole that I have to share. Copy pasta terrain doesn't really ruin my day. A world filled with reskins of a dozen or so mobs starts to get old after a while. Loading screens in a genre that did away with loading screens years ago start to get old. But I don't turn that into justification to try and cut down PS3 players. I see a lot of uptight ninnies stamping their feet and squealing with rage when it's pointed out that the game is already being influenced by "PS3 limitations" even though the PS3 version is still months and months away. I'm not the thin skinned monkey here, and you might want to just take a step back and get your dork hat on straight before you go off on another "lewlewl PC r dumb" tirade. It's not a competition. Don't make it one.


So why do you wish to play a game that is going to be multi-platform if you don't like one platform holding back the game? That's just stupid to play a game knowing full well there are going to be limitations. Take your cheap shots as to why FFXIV has reskinned mobs or terrain copy and pastes but it doesn't change the fact the PC version blew the launch. FFXIV's last hope now is that the PS3 version saves it and it becomes yet another niche rpg that nobody talks about in the mainstream. That's the legacy of what is at stake here. FFXIV is doomed and that's the point of this thread. I'm fully aware that the PC version of FFXI saved the game from failure. It doesn't seem that FFXIV's PC version is going to pull the same magic trick this time for various reasons. You're right about one thing though, it's not a competition.
#313 Dec 30 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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SoumaKyou wrote:

Square has never made a good PC port because no one makes good PC ports. Playable? Sure. Completely adapted? Never happened. At least not without a plethora of patches, which is what we're seeing here. Like I said, it's nothing new and it's not just Square. This is the conspiracy theory I'm talking about. You make it seem like Square's the only company who sucks at porting. ****, it's hard enough for companies to port between PC and Mac, let alone XBOX 360, PS3, and/or Wii to PC. That's the beauty of PC games, though. Despite all the bugs, they're designed for improvement. All of them - at least the ones with online access anyway. Patches are there to fix bugs, drivers are there to increase compatibility and performance, it's just how it works and you complaining about things like these really has no merit outside of trying to find something to complain about.

You're also underestimating the 8800 GT. It was a mid-budget video card that vastly outperformed the cards in its price range. ****, it's so powerful that it's running BF2 at very, very playable frames per second. I'm gonna go ahead and make the claim that being able to play BF2 at acceptable levels is MUCH harder on a video card than trying to play FFXIV, and the 8800 GT does it wonderfully. That's a game that has 32 players running around onscreen, explosions and gunfire everywhere, with destructible environments. I guarantee that's much tougher for a card to process, and if the 8800 GT can do that, it can handle FFXIV.


I wasn't speaking so literal about ports. I suppose I should of clarified my statement better. Usually when a game is set for multiple platforms you have different teams that work on each platform. For example, The PS3/Xbox might have a team and then there is a Wii version which has another team. These teams code the game specifically from the ground up for that platform. I get lazy with the word "ports", my bad. The Madden series isn't just ported over nowadays like it was back in the SNES/Genesis era.

Your comparison of BF vs FFXIV isn't fair. Some developers are better at coding than others. That's why I brought up games on the PS2 and PS3 such as Uncharted and the God of War series. The graphics in those games blow the roof of what most developers know how to do with the hardware. So just because BC has more explosions or whatever doesn't mean anything if it's coded properly. A good example of crappy coding has to be SE's PSX version of Chrono Trigger. How that game can be filled with annoying loading pauses prior to every fight is just lazy programming and poor emulation.

Maybe you can do more with the 8800 GT that I'm giving credit to, but it seems to me that you know a lot more about modding than your average joe. That means you know how to make it work for you to include over-clocking the CPU or GPU to your advantage. The point is I don't know your setup so I can't say for sure. I think that most novices that haven't made tweaks won't be so forgiving as you are to the 8800. Anytime you compare something you have to take all the extra work out it. This pretty much means I have to be able to plug and play and get the same results. If I can't do it and achieve similar results, it's not applicable to say it works. It might work for you, but it must work for everyone to count. Maybe you're right though. Maybe most of the people that I talked to that use the 8800 GT series have overall crappy PC's that need an upgrade. All I know is I'm not about to field test it just to prove you right or wrong.
#314 Dec 30 2010 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

And you can't do a fraction of that on a PS3. I don't take shots at people who prefer the PS3. I don't care what platform you prefer to play on or why. What I care about is when my gaming experience is limited because someone is playing on an inferior system that places limitations on the scope of the game as a whole that I have to share. Copy pasta terrain doesn't really ruin my day. A world filled with reskins of a dozen or so mobs starts to get old after a while. Loading screens in a genre that did away with loading screens years ago start to get old. But I don't turn that into justification to try and cut down PS3 players. I see a lot of uptight ninnies stamping their feet and squealing with rage when it's pointed out that the game is already being influenced by "PS3 limitations" even though the PS3 version is still months and months away. I'm not the thin skinned monkey here, and you might want to just take a step back and get your dork hat on straight before you go off on another "lewlewl PC r dumb" tirade. It's not a competition. Don't make it one.


So why do you wish to play a game that is going to be multi-platform if you don't like one platform holding back the game? That's just stupid to play a game knowing full well there are going to be limitations. Take your cheap shots as to why FFXIV has reskinned mobs or terrain copy and pastes but it doesn't change the fact the PC version blew the launch. FFXIV's last hope now is that the PS3 version saves it and it becomes yet another niche rpg that nobody talks about in the mainstream. That's the legacy of what is at stake here. FFXIV is doomed and that's the point of this thread. I'm fully aware that the PC version of FFXI saved the game from failure. It doesn't seem that FFXIV's PC version is going to pull the same magic trick this time for various reasons. You're right about one thing though, it's not a competition.


Well said. Common sense makes a comback.

Indeed, it doesn't look like PC is going to pull FF14's *** out of the fryer this time. And even if the PS3 manages to get it a slightly bigger playerbase it's not going to do enough good to make it an mmo to consider in 2011, what with Star Wars: The Old Republic, Cataclysm, Rift, and the new Guild Wars right around the bend, the odds are strong that FF14 will become a faintly remembered mmo. Heck, it doesn't even look like it will be a contender against Aion at this point, and that's just sad. It could have been so much better if only Squeenix had handled it better.
#315 Dec 30 2010 at 12:31 AM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
What conspiracy theory are you referring? All I'm saying here is that SE is not very good at porting game to PC and that only reinforces my statement that FFXIV requires more horsepower to play without lagging. Of course other games made by different publishers run into a snag too, but SE is a company that has never produced a single PC port worth a ****. The drivers with certain games might not work today, but they'll probably get fixed as time goes on. I strongly doubt FFXIV will ever run as smooth as most of these games. I agree with a lot of your points though. I disagree ever with your assessment of the 8800 GT. We have no idea how FFXIV will play during laggy congested zones. Part of the problem is the drivers you keep referencing which is a good point. However, you seem to assume that just because the 8800 GT works well enough now, it's a given that it will be top-notch down the road without turning off all the effects. FFXIV is poorly coded and Nvidia drivers tend to suck. We both agree on those 2 facts so let's just drop this.

Square has never made a good PC port because no one makes good PC ports. Playable? Sure. Completely adapted? Never happened. At least not without a plethora of patches, which is what we're seeing here. Like I said, it's nothing new and it's not just Square. This is the conspiracy theory I'm talking about. You make it seem like Square's the only company who sucks at porting. ****, it's hard enough for companies to port between PC and Mac, let alone XBOX 360, PS3, and/or Wii to PC. That's the beauty of PC games, though. Despite all the bugs, they're designed for improvement. All of them - at least the ones with online access anyway. Patches are there to fix bugs, drivers are there to increase compatibility and performance, it's just how it works and you complaining about things like these really has no merit outside of trying to find something to complain about.

You're also underestimating the 8800 GT. It was a mid-budget video card that vastly outperformed the cards in its price range. ****, it's so powerful that it's running BF2 at very, very playable frames per second. I'm gonna go ahead and make the claim that being able to play BF2 at acceptable levels is MUCH harder on a video card than trying to play FFXIV, and the 8800 GT does it wonderfully. That's a game that has 32 players running around onscreen, explosions and gunfire everywhere, with destructible environments. I guarantee that's much tougher for a card to process, and if the 8800 GT can do that, it can handle FFXIV.


There's a huge difference in saying everyone makes bad ports and what FFXIV started with (or mostly, what we have today) -- I won't go into the reasons why, because they've been discussed ad nauseum, but FFXIV was without a doubt the most bare bones, lazy, outright insulting release for a multi-system game I've ever seen.

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 1:31am by hexaemeron
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#316 Dec 30 2010 at 12:43 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
So why do you wish to play a game that is going to be multi-platform if you don't like one platform holding back the game? That's just stupid to play a game knowing full well there are going to be limitations. Take your cheap shots as to why FFXIV has reskinned mobs or terrain copy and pastes but it doesn't change the fact the PC version blew the launch. FFXIV's last hope now is that the PS3 version saves it and it becomes yet another niche rpg that nobody talks about in the mainstream. That's the legacy of what is at stake here. FFXIV is doomed and that's the point of this thread. I'm fully aware that the PC version of FFXI saved the game from failure. It doesn't seem that FFXIV's PC version is going to pull the same magic trick this time for various reasons. You're right about one thing though, it's not a competition.


Ya, the inferior platform saves the inferior game. That's one to tell your grandchildren about, to be sure. And look at all the screaming from these highly intelligent PS3 gamers who can't wrap their head around the PS3 limitations being the initial cause of the PS3 release being pushed back. Of course, being highly intelligent they'll gloss over what we were told about that initial delay and interject with such stunning logic as, "SE lied to us!" and the truly intellectual, "omfgwtfbbq!"

I agree that XIV is doomed to the niche SE had every opportunity to expand beyond. I think this goes even deeper than just the game failing. I think SE as a company is on its death bed right now. They no longer have the credibility they may have once had and this whole shenanigan has cost them millions.

Right now, XIV is the game I'm killing time with. I've got my eye on a couple of others that are getting very positive feedback out of beta and when they go live, FFXIV gets uninstalled and that will be that. I won't be back. I have nothing invested in XIV's success and I also have no wish to see it fail. A lot of people are still hopeful that Yoshida can turn it around and for the sake of the people who want to remain playing the game, I'm hopeful too. If Yoshida's announcement on the 1st comes with announcement that monthly subscriptions will start being billed towards the end of January, I'll be gone before any other MMOs come out.

See, it's not about PS3 vs. PC and butthurt tech geeks getting their ego wrapped up in their platform of choice. It's not about FFXI vs. WoW or solo vs. party or casual vs. hardcore. It's about playing an entertaining MMO and sadly, SE failed to deliver. What finally convinced me that my time in the game is drawing to a close was Yoshida's comments about how the changes will take time and that hopefully, quarter by quarter, they'll be able to turn it around. He's right. There are no quick fixes. Unlike what some here would seem convinced of, content doesn't add itself at the snap of a finger. Broken systems don't fix themselves behind the best wishes of players or developers. Bad games don't get better just because people want them to. SE built a large, beautiful world. They just didn't have time to put anything interesting in it. And that's all there is to it.
#317 Dec 30 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:

Ya, the inferior platform saves the inferior game. That's one to tell your grandchildren about, to be sure. And look at all the screaming from these highly intelligent PS3 gamers who can't wrap their head around the PS3 limitations being the initial cause of the PS3 release being pushed back. Of course, being highly intelligent they'll gloss over what we were told about that initial delay and interject with such stunning logic as, "SE lied to us!" and the truly intellectual, "omfgwtfbbq!"


I don't think the technical limits(memory) of the PS3 are to blame for the delay completely. That's what they told us and I don't buy it completely. What makes better sense is that SE had to devote extra time to rush out the PC version by the end of the year(thanks to a huge drop in profit margins) and the PC version was closer to completion. So what SE told us was true form a certain point of view.(yes, I'm quoting Obi-wan) I can't prove this theory, but judging how unfinished the PC version was at launch it does prove SE was rushing the game out. If you recall they promised the game would be in Beta for longer than XI(4months). That was a lie too. Alpha was delayed and beta was very short because of it. You can believe SE if you want.

Quote:

I agree that XIV is doomed to the niche SE had every opportunity to expand beyond. I think this goes even deeper than just the game failing. I think SE as a company is on its death bed right now. They no longer have the credibility they may have once had and this whole shenanigan has cost them millions.

Right now, XIV is the game I'm killing time with. I've got my eye on a couple of others that are getting very positive feedback out of beta and when they go live, FFXIV gets uninstalled and that will be that. I won't be back. I have nothing invested in XIV's success and I also have no wish to see it fail. A lot of people are still hopeful that Yoshida can turn it around and for the sake of the people who want to remain playing the game, I'm hopeful too. If Yoshida's announcement on the 1st comes with announcement that monthly subscriptions will start being billed towards the end of January, I'll be gone before any other MMOs come out.


What games are you looking into right now? Tera? Star Wars? Guild Wars 2? DC Universe?

I'm done with FFXIV as well. I'm so ****** SE screwed this game up. I'm looking into DC Universe myself right now. Either that or Star Wars next year.
#318 Dec 30 2010 at 1:11 AM Rating: Default
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Your comparison of BF vs FFXIV isn't fair. Some developers are better at coding than others. That's why I brought up games on the PS2 and PS3 such as Uncharted and the God of War series. The graphics in those games blow the roof of what most developers know how to do with the hardware. So just because BC has more explosions or whatever doesn't mean anything if it's coded properly. A good example of crappy coding has to be SE's PSX version of Chrono Trigger. How that game can be filled with annoying loading pauses prior to every fight is just lazy programming and poor emulation.

My comparison of Battlefield and FFXIV isn't to point out the differences between the developers, it's to point out the similarities. The Battlefield series started out on PC and only recently made it to consoles. Now, since the developers of Battlefield started their games on PC yet couldn't manage to port their own game from PS3/XBOX back onto their native platform correctly, how is Square supposed to do so on a platform that's relatively foreign to them? This is sufficient proof that it's not only the fact that Square's notorious for making poor ports, and instead proves that the platforms are genuinely difficult to cross-program for.

ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Maybe you can do more with the 8800 GT that I'm giving credit to, but it seems to me that you know a lot more about modding than your average joe. That means you know how to make it work for you to include over-clocking the CPU or GPU to your advantage. The point is I don't know your setup so I can't say for sure. I think that most novices that haven't made tweaks won't be so forgiving as you are to the 8800. Anytime you compare something you have to take all the extra work out it. This pretty much means I have to be able to plug and play and get the same results. If I can't do it and achieve similar results, it's not applicable to say it works. It might work for you, but it must work for everyone to count. Maybe you're right though. Maybe most of the people that I talked to that use the 8800 GT series have overall crappy PC's that need an upgrade. All I know is I'm not about to field test it just to prove you right or wrong.

The PC with an 8800 GT is my girlfriend's PC. She has no knowledge of tweaking and I haven't touched it since I built it for her 3 years ago. No overclocking was done.

Fact of the matter is that the stock, unmodified 8800 GT was running Crysis on High settings at a playable rate back when Crysis was considered THE most demanding game on the market. Now consider the fact that Crysis is STILL considered a ridiculously demanding game, and the fact that an 8800 GT wasn't even considered a top-of-the-line card in its day. It's not hard to believe an 8800 GT can still pull its weight with today's games. Medium settings, perhaps. I wouldn't expect any 3-4 year old GPU to run current games at max settings. But it doesn't mean it's only capable of running the game at absolute unplayable minimum settings with all the bells and whistles turned off.

hexaemeron wrote:
There's a huge difference in saying everyone makes bad ports and what FFXIV started with (or mostly, what we have today) -- I won't go into the reasons why, because they've been discussed ad nauseum, but FFXIV was without a doubt the most bare bones, lazy, outright insulting release for a multi-system game I've ever seen.

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 1:31am by hexaemeron

That's a matter of game content, which is not what we're talking about. We're talking about how well the game runs on PC, and I guarantee Electronic Arts and Activision are sitting pretty at the bottom right next to Square in terms of bad porting jobs with BF:BC2 and CoD:BO.

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 2:16am by SoumaKyou
#319 Dec 30 2010 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

Ya, the inferior platform saves the inferior game. That's one to tell your grandchildren about, to be sure. And look at all the screaming from these highly intelligent PS3 gamers who can't wrap their head around the PS3 limitations being the initial cause of the PS3 release being pushed back. Of course, being highly intelligent they'll gloss over what we were told about that initial delay and interject with such stunning logic as, "SE lied to us!" and the truly intellectual, "omfgwtfbbq!"


I don't think the technical limits(memory) of the PS3 are to blame for the delay completely. That's what they told us and I don't buy it completely. What makes better sense is that SE had to devote extra time to rush out the PC version by the end of the year(thanks to a huge drop in profit margins) and the PC version was closer to completion. So what SE told us was true form a certain point of view.(yes, I'm quoting Obi-wan) I can't prove this theory, but judging how unfinished the PC version was at launch it does prove SE was rushing the game out. If you recall they promised the game would be in Beta for longer than XI(4months). That was a lie too. Alpha was delayed and beta was very short because of it. You can believe SE if you want.


It doesn't matter. That's the thing...people scream at SE for not communicating and when they communicate people scream at them for lying, so what's the ******* point? Why demand someone communicate with you if you're only going to accept what they say if they tell you what you want to hear? I don't care about all the minute details and "mostly true but also" and and and. They gave us a reason that makes sense. Cool. They could be straight on the up and up. They could be bending the truth a bit. They could be lying through their teeth. No matter which position you take, if you weren't in the room when the decisions were made you have no way of knowing for sure.

Just look at what we've both seen in these forums since the game was first officially announced. From day one it's been the FFXI crew vs. everyone else. Logic. Reason. Tolerance. Inclusiveness. Doesn't mean **** around here. Never has. Never will. That's the community. Everyone is always looking for a reason to set themselves apart from everyone else. FFXI vs. WoW. Casual vs. hardcore. Solo vs. party. Combat vs. crafter. Rich vs. poor. Elitists vs. baddies.

White knights vs. trolls.

I've never seen such a polarized, adversarial community, even amongst MMOs where PvP is a heavy focus. For all the talk about community and making friends and socializing and yadda yadda yadda there's nothing better here than you'd find elsewhere, but there's a lot of bad that stands out. Can FFXIV survive it's playerbase? No MMO could survive this playerbase and still live up to this utopian ideal of love and butterflies people have been spewing around here since day one. "We love you and we welcome you to our wonderful community AS LONG AS YOU CONFORM TO OUR IDEAS AND OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS OTHERWISE WE FEED YOU TO THE MIDGETS!!"

Quote:
What games are you looking into right now? Tera? Star Wars? Guild Wars 2? DC Universe?

I'm done with FFXIV as well. I'm so ****** SE screwed this game up. I'm looking into DC Universe myself right now. Either that or Star Wars next year.


Rift is showing potential. From a visual standpoint it's nowhere near on the level of FFXIV but for dynamic content it's supposed to be shaping up to be fantastic. SWTOR is being heralded for showing signs that it could "put the RPG back in MMORPG" with the kind of story content that Bioware is becoming so well known for. The developers behind GW2 are saying all the right things but...so did Tanaka. And I'm not really sold on the F2P model as something I would appreciate, but I'll be keeping an eye on it.

I just got ******* out in LS for being a whiner because I mentioned that Yoshida was going to be making an announcement on the 1st and that I wasn't going to be staying with the game. That's all I said. Two lines of text. One that Yoshida was going to be making an announcement and one that I would be leaving because they can't fix the game in time.

I won't miss the game, and I sure as **** won't miss the community.
#320 Dec 30 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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this game is a total crap chute. they tried to throw something new and different out and it bombed. i say either take it back to what worked before (ffxi) with the exception of somehow using this ****** new job system they wanted so badly and obviously the new world and mobs. i mean currently: no start game, no mid game, no end game. no real story line since no1 can even stay with it long enough to even figure out wtf is actually goin on in the story line. no AH, no economy. all equals no fun. i mean ffs, after creating ffxi and it working so very well as it did, they still decided that all those races in that game need to be in this game...but lets call them something else. better yet. lets make em all spell stoopid so that ppl even have trouble figuring out what they are. i still call them all the original names and i always will. only ppl who wont are the ppl who picked up ffxiv without ever playing XI. and i cant even imagine what those ppl are waiting on considering they wouldn't even know how well of a job this company could make an mmo (ffxi. Plain and simple. IF IT AINT BROKE DONT FIX IT. and sure as **** dont go throwing around all the new dumb **** that is so pointless and degrading to not only the Square but to the Genre and to the Final Fantasy Name. I will probably never play this game ever again, regardless of how much more content or whatnot they add. the game's overall every blows nutts. plain and simple. black and white. idk what you ppl are waiting on. its not gonna happen. my guess...3 quarter 2011 still no ps3 launch, and square says ffxiv will indefinetly be free to play. im saying it first right here. watch out fan boi ********
#321 Dec 30 2010 at 2:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:

It doesn't matter. That's the thing...people scream at SE for not communicating and when they communicate people scream at them for lying, so what's the @#%^ing point? Why demand someone communicate with you if you're only going to accept what they say if they tell you what you want to hear? I don't care about all the minute details and "mostly true but also" and and and. They gave us a reason that makes sense. Cool. They could be straight on the up and up. They could be bending the truth a bit. They could be lying through their teeth. No matter which position you take, if you weren't in the room when the decisions were made you have no way of knowing for sure.


You're right though, it doesn't matter any longer. I have my own theories and despite if they matter or not, I'm sticking with them because I have to have some order in my life. SE lied to us when they released FFXIV unfinished still in beta form on the PC and that's what cost their credibility from me. It doesn't matter either way, but between you and me, that's just my opinion. I don't think that SE communicated enough with us though. Everyone that I knew that played the Beta knew the game wasn't ready for release and yet SE didn't care to listen. I know you're trying to say all this is irrelevant, but it really ****** off people when you're deceived by a company your supporting.

Quote:

I've never seen such a polarized, adversarial community, even amongst MMOs where PvP is a heavy focus. For all the talk about community and making friends and socializing and yadda yadda yadda there's nothing better here than you'd find elsewhere, but there's a lot of bad that stands out. Can FFXIV survive it's playerbase? No MMO could survive this playerbase and still live up to this utopian ideal of love and butterflies people have been spewing around here since day one. "We love you and we welcome you to our wonderful community AS LONG AS YOU CONFORM TO OUR IDEAS AND OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS OTHERWISE WE FEED YOU TO THE MIDGETS!!"


QFT! It's funny as you just described Rog on the FFXI forums. You forgot to mention micromanaging, but otherwise you nailed it perfectly. I feel the exact same way as you do.

Quote:

Rift is showing potential. From a visual standpoint it's nowhere near on the level of FFXIV but for dynamic content it's supposed to be shaping up to be fantastic. SWTOR is being heralded for showing signs that it could "put the RPG back in MMORPG" with the kind of story content that Bioware is becoming so well known for. The developers behind GW2 are saying all the right things but...so did Tanaka. And I'm not really sold on the F2P model as something I would appreciate, but I'll be keeping an eye on it.

I just got ******* out in LS for being a whiner because I mentioned that Yoshida was going to be making an announcement on the 1st and that I wasn't going to be staying with the game. That's all I said. Two lines of text. One that Yoshida was going to be making an announcement and one that I would be leaving because they can't fix the game in time.

I won't miss the game, and I sure as sh*t won't miss the community.


I'm going to check out Rift. I haven't heard anything about it yet. At least I can't remember anything in particular. I'm not sold on the free play servers either. I'm not liking the way LotR forces you to pay all that money for what I believe to be basic items. If I wanted the horse mount, I had to pay for a license first and then buy the horse. :P

I think people are just ****** that the game sucks and people are leaving. You can't really blame them for being mad though. I kinda feel sorry for the folks who stay around and continue to play FFXIV while people are quitting by the droves. Most people are waiting for some quick fixes, but like you pointed out, the game won't be fixed overnight. I doubt most people can wait that long when other games are ready to go now and have a future ahead of it.
#322 Dec 30 2010 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
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#323MojoRysyn, Posted: Dec 30 2010 at 7:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Just logged into FFXIV.
#324 Dec 30 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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To directly answer the title of this thread, yes I think FFXIV will survive in some fashion (whether as a mainstream or niche game I can't say). It just won't survive in the Zam forums.
#325 Dec 30 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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It's very amusing to watch this thread spiral out of control.

Logged on last night with a buddy and thoroughly enjoyed the game for a good 5 hours. Added features are making a wave of a difference to me individually. I think the game is now in a state where I can play on a regular basis and enjoy it. I'm sure many will disagree with my opinion but...as they say haters gonna hate.

#326 Dec 30 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

Ya, the inferior platform saves the inferior game. That's one to tell your grandchildren about, to be sure. And look at all the screaming from these highly intelligent PS3 gamers who can't wrap their head around the PS3 limitations being the initial cause of the PS3 release being pushed back. Of course, being highly intelligent they'll gloss over what we were told about that initial delay and interject with such stunning logic as, "SE lied to us!" and the truly intellectual, "omfgwtfbbq!"


I don't think the technical limits(memory) of the PS3 are to blame for the delay completely. That's what they told us and I don't buy it completely. What makes better sense is that SE had to devote extra time to rush out the PC version by the end of the year(thanks to a huge drop in profit margins) and the PC version was closer to completion. So what SE told us was true form a certain point of view.(yes, I'm quoting Obi-wan) I can't prove this theory, but judging how unfinished the PC version was at launch it does prove SE was rushing the game out. If you recall they promised the game would be in Beta for longer than XI(4months). That was a lie too. Alpha was delayed and beta was very short because of it. You can believe SE if you want.


It doesn't matter. That's the thing...people scream at SE for not communicating and when they communicate people scream at them for lying, so what's the @#%^ing point? Why demand someone communicate with you if you're only going to accept what they say if they tell you what you want to hear? I don't care about all the minute details and "mostly true but also" and and and. They gave us a reason that makes sense. Cool. They could be straight on the up and up. They could be bending the truth a bit. They could be lying through their teeth. No matter which position you take, if you weren't in the room when the decisions were made you have no way of knowing for sure.

Just look at what we've both seen in these forums since the game was first officially announced. From day one it's been the FFXI crew vs. everyone else. Logic. Reason. Tolerance. Inclusiveness. Doesn't mean sh*t around here. Never has. Never will. That's the community. Everyone is always looking for a reason to set themselves apart from everyone else. FFXI vs. WoW. Casual vs. hardcore. Solo vs. party. Combat vs. crafter. Rich vs. poor. Elitists vs. baddies.

White knights vs. trolls.

I've never seen such a polarized, adversarial community, even amongst MMOs where PvP is a heavy focus. For all the talk about community and making friends and socializing and yadda yadda yadda there's nothing better here than you'd find elsewhere, but there's a lot of bad that stands out. Can FFXIV survive it's playerbase? No MMO could survive this playerbase and still live up to this utopian ideal of love and butterflies people have been spewing around here since day one. "We love you and we welcome you to our wonderful community AS LONG AS YOU CONFORM TO OUR IDEAS AND OUR WAY OF DOING THINGS OTHERWISE WE FEED YOU TO THE MIDGETS!!"

Quote:
What games are you looking into right now? Tera? Star Wars? Guild Wars 2? DC Universe?

I'm done with FFXIV as well. I'm so ****** SE screwed this game up. I'm looking into DC Universe myself right now. Either that or Star Wars next year.


Rift is showing potential. From a visual standpoint it's nowhere near on the level of FFXIV but for dynamic content it's supposed to be shaping up to be fantastic. SWTOR is being heralded for showing signs that it could "put the RPG back in MMORPG" with the kind of story content that Bioware is becoming so well known for. The developers behind GW2 are saying all the right things but...so did Tanaka. And I'm not really sold on the F2P model as something I would appreciate, but I'll be keeping an eye on it.

I just got ******* out in LS for being a whiner because I mentioned that Yoshida was going to be making an announcement on the 1st and that I wasn't going to be staying with the game. That's all I said. Two lines of text. One that Yoshida was going to be making an announcement and one that I would be leaving because they can't fix the game in time.

I won't miss the game, and I sure as sh*t won't miss the community.


^^All of this. SQUARED.

Badly botched launch + Terribly made game + Too much defending from the SquareEnix buttkissers (one in particular on these forums I won't name) = Goodbye FFXIV

Which is a shame, because I love the core idea of this game. I especially love the guildleve system (Or maybe I just love guildleves. Stain glass cards look extremely cool.) But there's too much wrong with the game. Even if Squeenix is trying to fix some of what's wrong, it may be too little too late. I am enjoying the free months though, which look like they are about to end at around the beginning of Spring. Sometime in Spring, coincidentally, is when the new Star Wars mmo is slated to come out.

So I guess things are going to work out in a sense after all. :)
#327 Dec 30 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Default
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Geez Olorinus, you ****** those kids off something awful. Trying to rate you back up, but it seems you are stuck at decent in this thread. :(

Good to hear you use AutoCAD Aurelius. That's what I'm supposed to be doing right now in fact! The PC I have have at work is built to also run Revit, the 3D building modeler. I find 3D rendering to be more CPU and RAM dependent. Still, your comments make me wonder if a good GPU would improve render speed. I change views all day and it renders the whole building and MEP system (in wireframe) for each incrementmal view change. I'll have to look into it a bit.

Something about the Legend of Dragoon.

In closing (on topic), I'm not sure how indicative the ZAM forum is of the FFXIV playerbase as a whole.





Edited, Dec 30th 2010 11:48am by RufuSwho
#328 Dec 30 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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RufuSwho wrote:
In closing (on topic), I'm not sure how indicative the ZAM forum is of the FFXIV playerbase as a whole.

my guess? probably not indicative at all. I keep coming across zam members saying oh I quit playing but... then they rant away. Those that are left actually playing the game seem to like it in my experience.
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#329 Dec 30 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
RufuSwho wrote:
In closing (on topic), I'm not sure how indicative the ZAM forum is of the FFXIV playerbase as a whole.

my guess? probably not indicative at all. I keep coming across zam members saying oh I quit playing but... then they rant away. Those that are left actually playing the game seem to like it in my experience.


I think the same thing.

Those which complain here most seem to do the least progress. Though its been proven before, but usually your character and its level is proportional to how valued your input it. The people still going on about coblyns and such even when they are quickly falling apart as bad sp per hour and boring enemies are still touted as the only way to grind by many. I mean seriously we even have a thread on it.

The FFXIV playerbase is full of people who won't help one another, try new things and relay information in a timely manner. When the first NMs came out, what was the first post about their location? "I'm building a list of the NMs but they are private for my linkshell only." Seriously this elitism and jaded perspective combined with rampant ignorance is just about the worst thing about the playerbase. Now because forums are prone to this x10 Zam is probably getting most of the drama which in game doesn't seem to be there.
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#330 Dec 30 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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Jefro420 wrote:
my guess? probably not indicative at all. I keep coming across zam members saying oh I quit playing but... then they rant away.

This, and

AceAmallie wrote:
I think the same thing.

Those which complain here most seem to do the least progress. Though its been proven before, but usually your character and its level is proportional to how valued your input it.

this, x1000. Exactly what I've been saying throughout this thread and apparently I'm the troll. Lulz.

I still find it funny how the people who ***** and moan on the forums all day somehow think they're contributing to the development of the game.

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 1:29pm by SoumaKyou
#331 Dec 30 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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I am starting to wonder if Final Fantasy can survive SE. Looks like they are working on a new FF game.http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/30/square-enix-trademarks-final-fantasy-type-0-in-europe/ They can't evon get this one done. Is it just me or is this a veary bad time to be working on a new FF game?

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 1:47pm by Sethern79
#332 Dec 30 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sethern79 wrote:
I am starting to wonder if Final Fantasy can survive SE. Looks like they are working on a new FF game.http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/30/square-enix-trademarks-final-fantasy-type-0-in-europe/ They can't evon get this one done. Is it just me or is this a veary bad time to be working on a new FF game?

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 1:47pm by Sethern79


Wow I guess they are gonna try to bleed the FF name as dry as they can now that it looks like FFXIV is sinking like the Titanic.
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#333 Dec 30 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
I had a feeling i was being talked about, so i rushed over.


The force is strong with you Rog. Yeah Aur was talking about the "community" and he described your stance on the game quite well. So when you coming to FFXIV? :P
#334 Dec 30 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sethern79 wrote:
I am starting to wonder if Final Fantasy can survive SE. Looks like they are working on a new FF game.http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/30/square-enix-trademarks-final-fantasy-type-0-in-europe/ They can't evon get this one done. Is it just me or is this a veary bad time to be working on a new FF game?

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 1:47pm by Sethern79


LOLZ You have GOT to be kidding me.

So, before they can actually halfway stabalize the mmorpg they already have out there, they are making another FF game. Wow. Kind of reminds me of how hilarious it was that they put in some sort of corny holiday update instead of actually working on making the game better.

Oh well, I can somewhat understand. Why take your chances staying on a sinking ship and hoping it doesn't go completely under if you can create a makeshift raft?
#335 Dec 30 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
I had a feeling i was being talked about, so i rushed over.
The force is strong with you Rog. Yeah Aur was talking about the "community" and he described your stance on the game quite well. So when you coming to FFXIV? :P
Never. I don't play ****** games.

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 6:33pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#336 Dec 30 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
I had a feeling i was being talked about, so i rushed over.
The force is strong with you Rog. Yeah Aur was talking about the "community" and he described your stance on the game quite well. So when you coming to FFXIV? :P
Never. I don't play sh*tty games. The only ****** game I play is FFXI.


FTFY
#337 Dec 30 2010 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
I had a feeling i was being talked about, so i rushed over.
The force is strong with you Rog. Yeah Aur was talking about the "community" and he described your stance on the game quite well. So when you coming to FFXIV? :P
Never. I don't play sh*tty games. The only sh*tty game I play is FFXI.
FTFY
That's what i meant.

Actually it's gotten a lot better this year with abyssea.

And i love that my posts get excellent for saying ff14 is a sh*tty game in the ff14 forum, but if i say it in the ffxi forum, i get (sub)defaulted. Or are you guys just so happy you won't have to deal with me?

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 7:01pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#338 Dec 30 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
That's what i meant.

Actually it's gotten a lot better this year with abyssea.

And i love that my posts get excellent for saying ff14 is a sh*tty game in the ff14 forum, but if i say it in the ffxi forum, i get (sub)defaulted. Or are you guys just so happy you won't have to deal with me?

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 7:01pm by ThePsychoticOne


Well, that may be due to the fact that most people on the FF14 forums have actually played the game, so they can relate to your opinions about it being sh*tty.

I know I can.
#339 Dec 30 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
I had a feeling i was being talked about, so i rushed over.
The force is strong with you Rog. Yeah Aur was talking about the "community" and he described your stance on the game quite well. So when you coming to FFXIV? :P
Never. I don't play sh*tty games. The only sh*tty game I play is FFXI.
FTFY
That's what i meant.

Actually it's gotten a lot better this year with abyssea.

And i love that my posts get excellent for saying ff14 is a sh*tty game in the ff14 forum, but if i say it in the ffxi forum, i get (sub)defaulted.


Hey, take the love where you can get it. Just don't be surprised if it turns and goes the other way. See, the carebears and the decepticons work in shifts these days. Rarely do they collide at the same time. If you post the hate when the carebears are on duty you get karma thumped until they toddle off to pewpew rainbows, at which point the decepticons show up and reward you for the hate (bonus point if you can slip them some energon cubes).

It's a bit of a silly place, this.
#340 Dec 31 2010 at 4:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm with mosta the other people here. I don't want FFXIV to fail. But it already kinda has at least in any territory not Japan. Western markets aren't nearly as patient and forgiving as the Japanese are. The game was released when imho it wasn't even out of an alpha stage. Too little content too many core features people expect in MMO's not in place, the list goes on.

I like many left disgusted shortly after release... Since then I've come back and I am impressed with what they've done so far. But what's been done is only a drop in the bucket for all the things wrong/needed in the game and as Square has said themselves it's gonna take time. And time is not a commodity on their side. They prolly will salvage a lot of their Japanese playerbase they are so brand loyal it's scary. And I'm sure 6 months to a year from now when we see PS3 release some western players will come in. But with its rep I doubt that many.

Then there's a question of with this multi million dollar project is probably so far in the hole at this point I'm sure Square has at least discussed cutting their losses. I wouldn't count on ever seeing an expansion to bring this games world much past how small it already is. Best thing SE could do at this point is making it F2P as its business model and instituting some kind of cash shop. Least then more people would be willing to come in and try it.

As for people proclaiming SE is on its deathbed I don't know about that... They are posting losses but that's just about every company right now. And especially with Wal_mar... err Blizzard having its behemoth so many people judge a MMO based solely on if they have 12 mil players. I do think SE needs to do something... and without getting into a what FF is better topic... Over the past few games it seems they are sacrificing more of what FF has been just to push the envelope on graphics. Granted I don't wanna get punted back to the dark ages of 8-bit companies need to realize while it's nice to have some eye candy in our games gameplay and story should not be sacrificed because of it.
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#341 Dec 31 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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Valeforelacky wrote:

As for people proclaiming SE is on its deathbed I don't know about that... They are posting losses but that's just about every company right now. And especially with Wal_mar... err Blizzard having its behemoth so many people judge a MMO based solely on if they have 12 mil players. I do think SE needs to do something... and without getting into a what FF is better topic... Over the past few games it seems they are sacrificing more of what FF has been just to push the envelope on graphics. Granted I don't wanna get punted back to the dark ages of 8-bit companies need to realize while it's nice to have some eye candy in our games gameplay and story should not be sacrificed because of it.


I'm not 100% sure either, but from the looks of it SE isn't doing well. It was kinda humorous that I recently bought a SE game of sorts when I picked up Batman Game of the Year edition. The ironic thing is they had nothing to do with it and it's probably the hottest property they control at the moment. Dragon Quest Starry skies is meh and both FFXIII and XIV failed to meet expectations. Kane and Lynch was the highest grossing title for SE this year if that says anything. Maybe SE should roll out a new Rad Racer on the 3DS :P (For those those that never played Rad racer, it came with 3-d glasses and you pushed the select button to change the mode to "3-d") SE has lost their way for years and finally other people are seeing it first hand.
#342 Dec 31 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
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ShadowedgeFFXI wrote:
Valeforelacky wrote:

As for people proclaiming SE is on its deathbed I don't know about that... They are posting losses but that's just about every company right now. And especially with Wal_mar... err Blizzard having its behemoth so many people judge a MMO based solely on if they have 12 mil players. I do think SE needs to do something... and without getting into a what FF is better topic... Over the past few games it seems they are sacrificing more of what FF has been just to push the envelope on graphics. Granted I don't wanna get punted back to the dark ages of 8-bit companies need to realize while it's nice to have some eye candy in our games gameplay and story should not be sacrificed because of it.


I'm not 100% sure either, but from the looks of it SE isn't doing well. It was kinda humorous that I recently bought a SE game of sorts when I picked up Batman Game of the Year edition. The ironic thing is they had nothing to do with it and it's probably the hottest property they control at the moment. Dragon Quest Starry skies is meh and both FFXIII and XIV failed to meet expectations. Kane and Lynch was the highest grossing title for SE this year if that says anything. Maybe SE should roll out a new Rad Racer on the 3DS :P (For those those that never played Rad racer, it came with 3-d glasses and you pushed the select button to change the mode to "3-d") SE has lost their way for years and finally other people are seeing it first hand.


Exactly. My point.

Scrubs hate on FF6 and FF7 for their chosen alliegances (which is stupid, as they are both freakin video games) but one thing that can be said about both games is that they both had great stories. Isn't that like one of the most important factors about an rpg from SquareEnix?

FF14's story is interesting, but the problem is that you have to find a way to grind your way up to a certain level before you can see any more of it. Which is retarded, because there is hardly ANYTHING TO DO IN THE GAME. You only get eight regional and eight local quests you can do in over a day, and only a percentage of those are fighting. Crafting is freakin boring. Especially when you're almost forced to do it. People generally don't play an mmorpg so they can make copper necklaces and dodo skin belts over and over again. One thing I hated about WoW was the daily quests. The levequest system in FF14 is just like WoW's dailies only WORSE. At least you had your choice of more than eight of them.

I just finished the leves and R-leves I had today and logged. I doubt I'll be back on till tomorrow. FF14 is so much fail. I never thought there'd be an game that actually made me miss WoW ever again. Live and learn...
#343 Dec 31 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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SasukeYuchiha wrote:

Exactly. My point.

Scrubs hate on FF6 and FF7 for their chosen alliegances (which is stupid, as they are both freakin video games) but one thing that can be said about both games is that they both had great stories. Isn't that like one of the most important factors about an rpg from SquareEnix?


It's pretty much the only thing that SE seems able to do right these days. The cutscenes I saw in FFXIV were mostly good. It's just that my days of being willing to grind for 40+ hours for a 3 minute cutscene are long gone.
#344 Feb 10 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Then there's a question of with this multi million dollar project is probably so far in the hole at this point I'm sure Square has at least discussed cutting their losses. I wouldn't count on ever seeing an expansion to bring this games world much past how small it already is.


In with a necro post.

The above isn't taking into account FFXI before the NA release. Take 11, take away everything that has been added since 2004... and now take away everything about the Zilart release. Everything. Including the 75 level cap (it was 50 before NA release). Voila! 14, but with better named classes and worse graphics. SE recognizes the potential, as do many of us that still play, and they aren't going to risk wrecking a 20 year project that has been their (Square, at any rate) baby for this long. They'll improve it or die trying.
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#345 Apr 05 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Default
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Its not like its just one group of people working on all these games. They a vast company with many different teams, Theres an artical that states that there is a new team working on FF14 since the first one failed so badly, it seems like people who worked on ff11 are working on this game which in my opinion is great because so far, ff14 doesnt have all the attractive features that ff11 has. It might look good, but ff11 doesnt look to bad either and so far surpasses is new sibling.
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