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AH vs No AH, Why I like Retainers.Follow

#1 Dec 21 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Let me start of by saying I am a veteran MMO player with 10 years of play under my belt. I have been playing FFXIV since closed beta phase 1, and have a lot of experience with playing within the world of Eorzea. I do like this game, and the direction it is going, and hope that the game does indeed survive this critical point in it's life. I'd like to point out, I am not creating this post to have a flame war, I am merely offering a point of view that some might have not seen.

When playing other MMO's I have always had to purchase items from an auction house, usually submitting my bid and hoping I get said item for the price I requested. I understand that having an AH streamlines the buying and selling within a MMO's economy, but does nothing with creating a community. I think this is what one of the developer's original goals might have been in creating the retainer system. Helping to create a robust and thriving community of players that had to rely on one another to obtain items, and to sell items.

Because of the current retainer system in FFXIV, I have met some people I would never have spoken with had there been an Auction House. I've developed more relationships with crafter's, gather's, and fighters. We have learned to look out for one another, I see an item I know someone is looking for I grab it and save for them, and the others do the same and I know others who have this same experience. Heck most of the time the community I belong with trade items back and forth without charging each other. We look out for each other, and because of this system of having to communicate with total strangers to obtain items I have been looking for, I have met some really cool people, good and honest people.

I rarely have to look in the wards for items, I think maybe once or twice a month I look in the wards for a rare item, but that is about it. The only other time I am in the wards is to give stuff to my retainer for it to sell. My whole point is this, yes a search feature would be lovely for the market wards, but with an auction house I would not have met many of my current friends that I have made now. These people bring a much better gaming experience then I have ever had with MMO's that do have an auction house.

With that being said...
/flame retardant on.
#2 Dec 21 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Default
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Imagine how many friends you'd have if the market ward system hadn't driven so many players away from the game. AUCTION HOUSE PLEASE.
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#3 Dec 21 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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If I could only figure out how to teach my zombie slaves to garden I would be set.

While the game is free they can play with the zombie land sellers. If it keeps taking me hours to find stuff while I am paying then open up the AH in LL.
#4 Dec 21 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
Imagine how many friends you'd have if the market ward system hadn't driven so many players away from the game. AUCTION HOUSE PLEASE.


I understand why many want an auction house for the game, and I am not disagreeing with you that the game could use one. With the proposed changes they are making to the wards (see below), many people will get that wish. Yet I fail to see how having an auction house invalidates my OP? If the game had started with an auction house, I wouldn't know half the people I know on the game right now.

FFXIV Dev Team wrote:
The Item Search Function
This version update marks the first of several that will introduce improvements to item-based searches. The features to be added this time are listed below.

A search option that tells players how many items of a certain type are being sold in the market area with which that item type is associated.
Retainers returned by a search now have a distinguishing icon displayed above their head.
* Searches can be conducted by selecting the item search option at the entrance to any market, or from within any individual ward, row, or den.

With the introduction of the item search feature, it will now be significantly easier for players to locate specific items. We will continue to improve this system with further enhancements such as keyword-based searches, the ability to show the retainers selling an item at the lowest prices for searches returning numerous hits as with synthesis materials, and more. Concrete details regarding such information will be released in future Topics posts here on the Lodestone as they become available.
#5 Dec 21 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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May I ask what is the retainer system? Planning on buying the game but have not researched much about it. PLayed FFXI and liked the enviroment, hoping that FFXIV will be nice too. However I have heard so many critics crying about it, so I am doubting if it is a good choice going in to the game.
#6 Dec 21 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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nyopo wrote:
If I could only figure out how to teach my zombie slaves to garden I would be set.

While the game is free they can play with the zombie land sellers. If it keeps taking me hours to find stuff while I am paying then open up the AH in LL.


I am hoping that they allow gardening in company buildings or something to that extent.

Also the search function they are implementing might reduce your time to track down an item. I'd really like to know though Nyopo or anyone else, has no one had the experiences I've discussed in my OP?
#7 Dec 21 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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i got your point. this market ward system give u the chance to make some nice friend.

here is what i thought. every one who like this all say they made some friend though this. BUT, in MMO, there r just too many other BETTER way to make friend than this stupid(sorry to use this word,but this system really annoy me) system. u can always make friend in pt, event, missions.

making FEW friend, and make majority of player base get mad about really hard to buy and sell. compare these two side. really not worth to use a new market system.

SE just give us **** AH. ><
#8 Dec 21 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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I, from day one, have wanted an AH(or something like it). I'm a FFXI/EQ2 guy...so I am on the other end saying without an auction...the community is in trouble due to the overall negative response to the "current" Ward system. Its hard to have a community if only a portion enjoys the economic gameplan. From what I've seen on these boards over the last few months...people have left because A) Lack of content and B) the lack of an economy.

There is no right answer as to the validity of each of our views...but the bottom line is...what's best for the strength of the game itself. What will bring back players and keep them. Because without that...what use is FFXIV if they shut it down or do not release timely expansions. You will have a small game with a tight small community...since everyone else will have left.
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#9 Dec 21 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Davoud wrote:
May I ask what is the retainer system? Planning on buying the game but have not researched much about it. PLayed FFXI and liked the enviroment, hoping that FFXIV will be nice too. However I have heard so many critics crying about it, so I am doubting if it is a good choice going in to the game.



The retainer system is the only current way to sell items. You give items to an NPC, they hold onto it and sell in an area with many other retainers. Players used to have to search each retainer manually to look for said item, but that is being changed with an item search function.
#10 Dec 21 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:
I, from day one, have wanted an AH(or something like it). I'm a FFXI/EQ2 guy...so I am on the other end saying without an auction...the community is in trouble due to the overall negative response to the "current" Ward system. Its hard to have a community if only a portion enjoys the economic gameplan. From what I've seen on these boards over the last few months...people have left because A) Lack of content and B) the lack of an economy.

There is no right answer as to the validity of each of our views...but the bottom line is...what's best for the strength of the game itself. What will bring back players and keep them. Because without that...what use is FFXIV if they shut it down or do not release timely expansions. You will have a small game with a tight small community...since everyone else will have left.



I do understand your points Simool, and I agree with you, this game unfortunately needs an auction house like interface to survive in my honest opinion. Too many players have left because they don't want to waste time having to manually search for an item, and I don't blame them. I am hoping the new search feature will help alleviate some of that burden, and with future proposed search functions, I don't see why you couldn't call the retainer system FFXIV's auction house system.

From what the developers are saying, the future system will show item location, plus prices. Is that not the same?
#11 Dec 21 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Technolust wrote:
Davoud wrote:
May I ask what is the retainer system? Planning on buying the game but have not researched much about it. PLayed FFXI and liked the enviroment, hoping that FFXIV will be nice too. However I have heard so many critics crying about it, so I am doubting if it is a good choice going in to the game.



The retainer system is the only current way to sell items. You give items to an NPC, they hold onto it and sell in an area with many other retainers. Players used to have to search each retainer manually to look for said item, but that is being changed with an item search function.


Oh, that is quite nice I think, it's a bit like old Lineage. I think it enhances the RP in the game and makes the market more "alive" and "real". Thanks for the answer
#12 Dec 21 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Technolust wrote:
Simool wrote:
I, from day one, have wanted an AH(or something like it). I'm a FFXI/EQ2 guy...so I am on the other end saying without an auction...the community is in trouble due to the overall negative response to the "current" Ward system. Its hard to have a community if only a portion enjoys the economic gameplan. From what I've seen on these boards over the last few months...people have left because A) Lack of content and B) the lack of an economy.

There is no right answer as to the validity of each of our views...but the bottom line is...what's best for the strength of the game itself. What will bring back players and keep them. Because without that...what use is FFXIV if they shut it down or do not release timely expansions. You will have a small game with a tight small community...since everyone else will have left.



I do understand your points Simool, and I agree with you, this game unfortunately needs an auction house like interface to survive in my honest opinion. Too many players have left because they don't want to waste time having to manually search for an item, and I don't blame them. I am hoping the new search feature will help alleviate some of that burden, and with future proposed search functions, I don't see why you couldn't call the retainer system FFXIV's auction house system.

From what the developers are saying, the future system will show item location, plus prices. Is that not the same?

Assuming that SE implements enough to have effective AH functionality within their retainer system, the big difference that will remain is that retainers will eventually cost real money. They've allowed for 2 retainers for free now to keep people from bailing but not forever.

IMO this is the real reason for the retainer system. The whole assumption that this addresses inflation and gil selling is smoke and mirrors.
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#13 Dec 21 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Lokithor wrote:

Assuming that SE implements enough to have effective AH functionality within their retainer system, the big difference that will remain is that retainers will eventually cost real money. They've allowed for 2 retainers for free now to keep people from bailing but not forever.

IMO this is the real reason for the retainer system. The whole assumption that this addresses inflation and gil selling is smoke and mirrors.

You don't know that. They never said they were going to take away the 2nd retainer when they start charging to play the game.
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#14 Dec 21 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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Lokithor wrote:
Technolust wrote:
Simool wrote:
I, from day one, have wanted an AH(or something like it). I'm a FFXI/EQ2 guy...so I am on the other end saying without an auction...the community is in trouble due to the overall negative response to the "current" Ward system. Its hard to have a community if only a portion enjoys the economic gameplan. From what I've seen on these boards over the last few months...people have left because A) Lack of content and B) the lack of an economy.

There is no right answer as to the validity of each of our views...but the bottom line is...what's best for the strength of the game itself. What will bring back players and keep them. Because without that...what use is FFXIV if they shut it down or do not release timely expansions. You will have a small game with a tight small community...since everyone else will have left.



I do understand your points Simool, and I agree with you, this game unfortunately needs an auction house like interface to survive in my honest opinion. Too many players have left because they don't want to waste time having to manually search for an item, and I don't blame them. I am hoping the new search feature will help alleviate some of that burden, and with future proposed search functions, I don't see why you couldn't call the retainer system FFXIV's auction house system.

From what the developers are saying, the future system will show item location, plus prices. Is that not the same?

Assuming that SE implements enough to have effective AH functionality within their retainer system, the big difference that will remain is that retainers will eventually cost real money. They've allowed for 2 retainers for free now to keep people from bailing but not forever.

IMO this is the real reason for the retainer system. The whole assumption that this addresses inflation and gil selling is smoke and mirrors.


I tend to agree with you, but when I played XI I have 1 main account, and 8 mules. So I was already paying for the additional inventory space. While I do believe the current system does help impede gil sellers, it has nothing to do with inflation. Inflation is tied into how fast currency is created and destroyed.
#15 Dec 21 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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They don't have to get rid of wards to have an AH, they can implement both, and I am confident that both would be used. Everything you have described is still possible to experience with an AH in place. You would be able to see who is selling what much more easily, and contact them to create a kind of player to player trade system if you were so inclined. In FFXI, I did this all the time, especially when I needed items in bulk quantities. With retainers, I have no idea who I am buying from, and cannot really check who sells what other than by shouting or joining a crafting LS, but this is not true with an AH, although the wards could be modified to allow people to see who retainers belong to as well. Still, given that a large portion of people want an AH, and that it would streamline the economy, I think it should be implemented. If the wards and the AH are fine tuned, they would keep each other in check, and help prevent either from becoming manipulated. It is hard to manipulate the prices of items in a ward/bazaar system, and it is difficult to rip people off due to price ignorance with an AH system, and when both are in place, the economy should be much more stable and much more convenient.
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#16 Dec 21 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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Davoud wrote:
Technolust wrote:
Davoud wrote:
May I ask what is the retainer system? Planning on buying the game but have not researched much about it. PLayed FFXI and liked the enviroment, hoping that FFXIV will be nice too. However I have heard so many critics crying about it, so I am doubting if it is a good choice going in to the game.



The retainer system is the only current way to sell items. You give items to an NPC, they hold onto it and sell in an area with many other retainers. Players used to have to search each retainer manually to look for said item, but that is being changed with an item search function.


Oh, that is quite nice I think, it's a bit like old Lineage. I think it enhances the RP in the game and makes the market more "alive" and "real". Thanks for the answer


Yeah, it does. And it forces more interaction. It does take more time to find specific things than it probably would with an Auction House - but yeah, I like that I have to find customers for my products as a DoL, for example.

In FFXI I would just have put my fish on the Auction House and they would have sold to some faceless person somewhere out there. Instead I've been selling and giving my fish away directly to people - forging friendships and business relationships. I can still move product pretty well, but I am getting the added benefit of forging connections.

Yes, it takes longer... but again this really comes down to the two kinds of players- the ones that want to do everything as fast as possible and the ones who enjoy playing the game. If you like doing something, why are you trying to rush through it.

Yesterday - with the help of four other people - I got a pair of bronze goggles made:

Screenshot


1 person was a higher ranked alchemist who I had given a number of dart frogs to. She gave me the lenses.
2 people were in my linkshell. I synthed black lenses from a gobbie mask for 1 of them, and they gathered the other mats for the item.
1 person shared a linkshell with my LS mate. He synthed the gathered materials - keeping a pair of goggles for himself.

I got a +1 pair!

Was it inconvenient to do things this way? Maybe. But the goggles cost me nothing. I got them in one night when I haven't seen any on the market at all. And I had a lot of fun running back and forth - synthing the lenses - and cheering on the goldsmith/leatherworker who made them.





Edited, Dec 21st 2010 1:32pm by Olorinus
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#17 Dec 21 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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I don't want to appear to be firing the first shot. You bring out the best qualities that are or should be present in a linkshell. If SE's aim was to create a giant linkshell (community) your points are very valid.

However, the chief complaint I read against AH's are that prices will plummet. Players will find that Maple Sap is not really worth 1,000g per pot or that really cool looking +1 willow mask is not worth the asking price of 10,000g. The fact is that the retainer system is used by several players on probably most servers to take advantage of people without access to the community that you refer. I have seen examples of retainers offering to buy shards at x price with a second retainer standing next to it offering shards at x-y price. Only when someone buys then try's to sell do they realize that one price is a unit price and the other is a set price. The current retainer system market promotes or at least aids players that are willing to take advantage of either new, lazy, or desperate players.

The system is inefficient because it really doesn't even supply basic market information as to what products to produce. Because of the vagaries of the retainer system and the lack of being able to have a single retainer in two places at once, you will be hard pressed to know if the market really doesn't value that item "x" at whatever price or that the market is unable to find your item "x" because it is being sold on the spellcraft ward with all of your new budding willow wands or in Gridania when all potential purchasers are located in Ul'Dah. The axiom of location, location, location is defeated by the current system for many products.

With each player having two retainers and players traveling from city to city, the odds of finding a specific material are low. Even with a search function, the ability to purchase that leather component for a weaving recipe or blacksmith component for that carpentry recipe is remote. Fortunately, many of us belong to decent linkshells or have made the friends that you write about to overcome this deficiency. I worry about the new player that doesn't have that support or understand that dynamic. The casual gamer in this format is going to be left out in the cold.

The retainer system in the wards is a weak spot of the game. I, personally, dread going to the markets to be surrounded with lifeless mannequins. With every step my character takes in the battlecraft ward, tens of new mannequins spawn. The odds of finding that one mentioned on YG are daunting. Did i miss the retainer because of lag? Did the owner move the retainer to a different ward or even different city? After clicking on a dozen retainers and finding only overpriced vendor trash, I usually give up and wait until my friends with the appropriate craft are on or I visit half a dozen websites looking for the mob that drops the material or the area that spawns the node.

I see the retainer system as an inferior half way point to the community that you value, (as do I), and the mass commercialism of EBay or Amazon. The retainer system allows enough commercialism to allow some people to take advantage of others and not enough to drive an efficient market place. If I need to purchase an item in real life, I will shop at places that either I know are convenient and offer good value and selection or I will go online to purchase it at the lowest price. I do not drive from garage sale to garage sale hoping to find that elusive product.

I don't want to diminish the community that you have found in this game. That is the best feature of MMO's. Otherwise, people would stick to single player games. But I see the retainer system benefiting those that are interested in accumulating the most coin rather than building a cooperative environment.

Ok, may I now borrow your flame retardant suit? Please?

#18 Dec 21 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile exacly! That is the RP games is all about and last time I checked, this was a MMORPG :)

On the post above. Well in real life one can be tricked quite good, is this not part of life in game or out of it? Think on eve-online, have you played it? The most sofisticated economy there is in a game, and that is because the players create everything and sometimes you get fooled.

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 4:41pm by Davoud
#19 Dec 21 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree with the OP's assessment of the game mechanics thus far, and being a parent gives me an understanding and insight into the young persons attitude of not wanting to wait for anything these days. Perfect example is my son standing in front of the microwave complaining it is taking way too much time to cook his popcorn :)
They want what they want and they want it yesterday! Tomorrow or 30 minutes from now is just not fast enough for some people.
I have been frustrated many times trying to find things in the wards and in a way it has driven me to find other ways to get the items/gear/ammo I wanted. I have been nudged in a direction I wouldn't normally go but I have to say in doing so, it has opened more doors for me to do more things I would never have the opportunity or ability to accomplish. I have been max physical level for some time now, I have 7 crafts over 25, 2 of which are 30 (DoH) all DoL 27/28/25. My main DoW is 43 And I make all my own consumables and repair most of my own gear. My point is I would not have been so inclined if there were an AH in place. There are plenty of "I want it now" types in the game that are willing to pay almost any amount of Gil for convenience to keep the crafting community rolling in Gil, so I don't think a search function would be a bad thing. I haven't seen one good excuse for having an AH other than the convenience of not having to work for what you want. I didn't like not having available everything at my finger tips like an AH offers. I do like however, being able to harvest then craft what I need. It's a lot harder, It's not easy, but it is more rewarding than walking up to a counter and buying it, at least it has been for me.
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#20 Dec 21 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Davoud wrote:
Technolust wrote:
Davoud wrote:
May I ask what is the retainer system? Planning on buying the game but have not researched much about it. PLayed FFXI and liked the enviroment, hoping that FFXIV will be nice too. However I have heard so many critics crying about it, so I am doubting if it is a good choice going in to the game.



The retainer system is the only current way to sell items. You give items to an NPC, they hold onto it and sell in an area with many other retainers. Players used to have to search each retainer manually to look for said item, but that is being changed with an item search function.


Oh, that is quite nice I think, it's a bit like old Lineage. I think it enhances the RP in the game and makes the market more "alive" and "real". Thanks for the answer


Yeah, it does. And it forces more interaction. It does take more time to find specific things than it probably would with an Auction House - but yeah, I like that I have to find customers for my products as a DoL, for example.

In FFXI I would just have put my fish on the Auction House and they would have sold to some faceless person somewhere out there. Instead I've been selling and giving my fish away directly to people - forging friendships and business relationships. I can still move product pretty well, but I am getting the added benefit of forging connections.

Yes, it takes longer... but again this really comes down to the two kinds of players- the ones that want to do everything as fast as possible and the ones who enjoy playing the game. If you like doing something, why are you trying to rush through it.

Yesterday - with the help of four other people - I got a pair of bronze goggles made:

Screenshot


1 person was a higher ranked alchemist who I had given a number of dart frogs to. She gave me the lenses.
2 people were in my linkshell. I synthed black lenses from a gobbie mask for 1 of them, and they gathered the other mats for the item.
1 person shared a linkshell with my LS mate. He synthed the gathered materials - keeping a pair of goggles for himself.

I got a +1 pair!

Was it inconvenient to do things this way? Maybe. But the goggles cost me nothing. I got them in one night when I haven't seen any on the market at all. And I had a lot of fun running back and forth - synthing the lenses - and cheering on the goldsmith/leatherworker who made them.





Edited, Dec 21st 2010 1:32pm by Olorinus


Rate ^, and this is why I like the retainer system.

redfoxxredfoxx wrote:
Everything you have described is still possible to experience with an AH in place. You would be able to see who is selling what much more easily, and contact them to create a kind of player to player trade system if you were so inclined.


Yes but with an AH the need to network with other players is not as great as the need without an AH. I use ffxiv.yg.com to list a lot of my items, I get quite a few /tells each day asking to synth something for someone because they saw what I had listed on YG for bazaar.

Everyone has there own opinion about this system, and I understand why others are angered over the lack of having an AH, I was merely pointing out some of the benefits of the lack of an AH so some who might not have thought about this system, could maybe go out there and try meeting others. Networking, and making friends.

Honestly I am more inclined to take care of those that take care of others.
#21 Dec 21 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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I will like the wards when they have a search function. But, I heard that they will eventually show you the prices or the lowest cost item. That takes something away from it IMO. I rather it show us who all has the items we are looking for, and where, but not show us the prices. It's just gonna turn it into a bunch of undercutting.
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#22 Dec 21 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Yeah, it does. And it forces more interaction. It does take more time to find specific things than it probably would with an Auction House - but yeah, I like that I have to find customers for my products as a DoL, for example.

In FFXI I would just have put my fish on the Auction House and they would have sold to some faceless person somewhere out there. Instead I've been selling and giving my fish away directly to people - forging friendships and business relationships. I can still move product pretty well, but I am getting the added benefit of forging connections.

Yes, it takes longer... but again this really comes down to the two kinds of players- the ones that want to do everything as fast as possible and the ones who enjoy playing the game. If you like doing something, why are you trying to rush through it.


Often times it can even be faster than having the AH to sell stuff, I see it a lot in our LS with people exchanging materials and crafted goods. Honestly with how things go in the K-Club I think the better addition would be a mailbox system. There are so many colabarative crafting efforts in the LS that probably wouldn't happen with an AH system in place, as well as all the bartering we do for supplies and materials. Add in all the random other people i have gotten to know outside the linkshell and I have little to no trouble finding crafters to make stuff or items that I need/want (cus we all know I spend most of my time trying to get my gear colours to match amiright?). The search function is a welcome addition for finding finished goods just a little bit faster but I sincerely doubt I would even try to use it for finding materials or parts.
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#23 Dec 21 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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i think if you think if you're able to play somewhat regularly enough to make the kind of contacts the op has made then that is truly great. and simply saying that i rate up the op as hes truly had some good fortune.

personally though i cant see myself making those kinds of contacts. monday to friday i may only play a total of 4-6 hours over the 5 days. then 10-12 over the weekends. so isnt much opportunity to build up those kinds of contacts and as such for me the system is currently an absolute nightmare to work with.

but i think it's great that the op has managed to get himself amoungst a group of what sounds like great people. i met some truly great people in xi and some of them have become great friends and given me expierences i'd probably never have otherwise never done. such as skiing on mont blanc in the south of france. and rallying around the argentinian countryside. pretty sure id never have done either if i hadnt made those friends in xi.

It's great to here these kinds of stories i think. good friends can make games so much more enjoyable. especially when you take pride in there achievements to. the same friends i went skiing with were so happy when id helped them get through the final chapter of cop on xi. id done it myself ages before. but still felt great to know they'd achieved something and i was a part of it.

Rate Up to the OP
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#24 Dec 21 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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SeaDawg2010 wrote:
I don't want to appear to be firing the first shot. You bring out the best qualities that are or should be present in a linkshell. If SE's aim was to create a giant linkshell (community) your points are very valid.

However, the chief complaint I read against AH's are that prices will plummet. Players will find that Maple Sap is not really worth 1,000g per pot or that really cool looking +1 willow mask is not worth the asking price of 10,000g. The fact is that the retainer system is used by several players on probably most servers to take advantage of people without access to the community that you refer. I have seen examples of retainers offering to buy shards at x price with a second retainer standing next to it offering shards at x-y price. Only when someone buys then try's to sell do they realize that one price is a unit price and the other is a set price. The current retainer system market promotes or at least aids players that are willing to take advantage of either new, lazy, or desperate players.


You bring up some good points for sure. I agree that it will be hard for new players and those without a strong community to turn to who want to advance in this game. The search function on the wards will help people to compare prices a lot faster and will make the wards more efficient by rewarding people who put their items in the right ward by making their items easier to find.

However, I don't really think finding community is as hard as some people make it out to be. You do have to be a decent person though. If you overcharge - people will remember. If you help people out - they will remember.

But the existence of items like maple sap and dart frogs on grade 1 gathering points sort of negates what you are saying too. What is to stop a new player from starting up botanist and doing grade 1 trees in the black shroud and selling the maple sap they got for just a bit lower than those other retainers they saw in the wards? Or trading directly with an alchemist with them? Nothing. So a rank 10 player is just as likely able to benefit from the wards as a rank 30 player.

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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#25 Dec 21 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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I agree that when creating the retainer and market wards system SE had community in mind. Sort of like a flea market or street bazaar. However, obviously, it wasn't received by the community. I think SE wasn't counting on a lack of communication between the players. In Tanakas mind I bet he visioned a bustling chat tab with people shouting back and forth ie: PlayerA "Looking for XYZ item anyone seens one" playerB: "yeah ABC is selling that" playerC" whoa LMNO has 2 QRS+3 for sale"
Also has the market were established I have a feeling that SE was hoping certain retainers would become known for particular items. If you are looking for Cupcakes and Cookies you know for a fact that that one retainer would be selling those.

Why this didn't happen? In a development setting where you're dealing with tens to a few hundred of people, you can establish fairly easily how the wards are to operate. Sell only finished armor in this ward, sell only finished weapons here, Sell cooking mats in wards #3 and leather working in ward #4. On the small scale this works, in the open you have no control over who places what where.
It's too much of a change over how any market in ANY game, single player or MMO has functioned. In a single player RPG if you want armor, you go to the armor shop. not talk to each NPC seeing if one of them happens to sell armor, and hopefully the one you're looking to upgrade to. In the MMO you have thousands of sellable items, there needs to be some way to organize and put those items into a category for people to seek out to buy.
thats why an AH or at the very minimum a search feature is a must.

An AH and a Wards system can exist side by side. Just look at FFXI and rolanberry market. Even if the AH was set up so only components to craft finished items were allowed and keep teh wards for finished items I think would be leaps and bounds better then what we currently have, and what SE is implementing with todays update.
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#26 Dec 21 2010 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Search is implemented. If it works well enough, then we can start asking for mail right?
#27 Dec 21 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
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Most peeps who want an AH are the ones who have wanted FFXI-2. I say no to an AH once and for all
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#28 Dec 21 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
RufuSwho wrote:
Search is implemented. If it works well enough, then we can start asking for mail right?


Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Mail System ended up coming part and parcel with the Companies that they are talking about implementing early next year. In my mind it would make sense that the company's base of operations or whatever would serve as a good hub for mail, as opposed to it just magically following you around the world no matter where you go to pick it up.
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#29 Dec 21 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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SeaDawg2010 wrote:
I don't want to appear to be firing the first shot. You bring out the best qualities that are or should be present in a linkshell. If SE's aim was to create a giant linkshell (community) your points are very valid.

However, the chief complaint I read against AH's are that prices will plummet. Players will find that Maple Sap is not really worth 1,000g per pot or that really cool looking +1 willow mask is not worth the asking price of 10,000g. The fact is that the retainer system is used by several players on probably most servers to take advantage of people without access to the community that you refer. I have seen examples of retainers offering to buy shards at x price with a second retainer standing next to it offering shards at x-y price. Only when someone buys then try's to sell do they realize that one price is a unit price and the other is a set price. The current retainer system market promotes or at least aids players that are willing to take advantage of either new, lazy, or desperate players.

The system is inefficient because it really doesn't even supply basic market information as to what products to produce. Because of the vagaries of the retainer system and the lack of being able to have a single retainer in two places at once, you will be hard pressed to know if the market really doesn't value that item "x" at whatever price or that the market is unable to find your item "x" because it is being sold on the spellcraft ward with all of your new budding willow wands or in Gridania when all potential purchasers are located in Ul'Dah. The axiom of location, location, location is defeated by the current system for many products.


My chief complaint with having an AH is having the Auction House determine what an item's value is, and not what a player value's said item at. With a retainer system, I decide what price I want to pay for an item. If someone is listing an item for 100k, and I don't think that item is worth that price, I am pretty sure I can find said item cheaper if I look a little bit longer. Whereas if there were an Auction House, people would list the price based off what the last sell price of said item was. So if I see an item on an Auction House listing for 100k, I would then most likely sell said item for right around that.

Yes the wards in it's current state do allow some people to take advantage of other players, by either over charging for said item, or by trying to buy an item for Set price instead of unit price. The nice thing though, is when I see a person over charging for items in there bazaar, I know to avoid them in the future. My retainer is set in the same stand in the Fieldcraft ward ever since I started playing. People know to come to that person if they need finished carpenter items.

Also with the current retainer system, I now have 30 slots to sell stuff, instead of the typical 7 in XI's auction house. Also since players have become somewhat accustomed to checking peoples bazaar when ever they come across one, stuff tends to sell a whee bit faster.

SWSeeker wrote:
I agree with the OP's assessment of the game mechanics thus far, and being a parent gives me an understanding and insight into the young persons attitude of not wanting to wait for anything these days. Perfect example is my son standing in front of the microwave complaining it is taking way too much time to cook his popcorn :)
They want what they want and they want it yesterday! Tomorrow or 30 minutes from now is just not fast enough for some people.
I have been frustrated many times trying to find things in the wards and in a way it has driven me to find other ways to get the items/gear/ammo I wanted. I have been nudged in a direction I wouldn't normally go but I have to say in doing so, it has opened more doors for me to do more things I would never have the opportunity or ability to accomplish. I have been max physical level for some time now, I have 7 crafts over 25, 2 of which are 30 (DoH) all DoL 27/28/25. My main DoW is 43 And I make all my own consumables and repair most of my own gear. My point is I would not have been so inclined if there were an AH in place. There are plenty of "I want it now" types in the game that are willing to pay almost any amount of Gil for convenience to keep the crafting community rolling in Gil, so I don't think a search function would be a bad thing. I haven't seen one good excuse for having an AH other than the convenience of not having to work for what you want. I didn't like not having available everything at my finger tips like an AH offers. I do like however, being able to harvest then craft what I need. It's a lot harder, It's not easy, but it is more rewarding than walking up to a counter and buying it, at least it has been for me.


I agree with SWSeeker, and I hate to say it, but in my opinion I agree with them. To many people rush everything, rush to 50, rush to cap, rush to get items. This is one of the reasons why I think the retainer system was shunned by many. You have to work to obtain your items. Yet they don't realize that if you develop a strong community with the people around you, you can get items much faster, make the items much faster, and the cost of doing so is much cheaper.

I created 4 Oak Composite bows just the other day, yeah it took me a week to get all the materials, and I had to ask a few friends to make some of the more rare ingredients, but when all was said and done, the cost to make the bows was 0 gil, because I end up trading materials within our community for free. This is what it has come down to, within my community fighters get me items and crystals, and shards, gatherers get me items I need, crafters craft materials that are rare to appear on the retainer system. In turn they receive free repairs, free items, and free gear upgrades.

All in all the entire system helps everyone out. And I keep making a great many friends.



Edited, Dec 21st 2010 3:28pm by Technolust
#30 Dec 21 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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SeaDawg2010 wrote:
The current retainer system market promotes or at least aids players that are willing to take advantage of either new, lazy, or desperate players.


I am totally OK with taking advantage of lazy players. It's what they get for being lazy.

I, myself, have been a "desperate" player. I probably spent WAY more than I should have for a particular resource. But you know what? That was my choice. nobody forced me to buy their overpriced crap.

As for the new players: Everybody was a noob. And everybody makes noob mistakes. I once bought GFAlpha from a personal bazaar for 8k. Then found out about the npc. You know what I did? I learned from the experience, and stopped buying overpriced GFA. ....then turned around and sold some in my personal bazaar for 5k.

I thank the OP for sharing the positive experiences from their forced interacton. My story is quite similar! The best acts of kindness and generosity I've seen so far in-game never would have happened without the retainer/barter system.

I would totally rate you up if I wasn't a forum noob and knew how. ;)

*Edit: +1 for mail system!

Edited, Dec 21st 2010 5:39pm by Frisque
#31 Dec 21 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
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I like retainers because I can't play dress-up with an AH.

But seriously, AUCTION HOUSE PLEASE.
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#32 Dec 21 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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Frisque wrote:

I would totally rate you up if I wasn't a forum noob and knew how. ;)


You can't rate up or down until you achieve scholar status (from reaching a certain threshold of rate ups versus rate downs, I guess) you must also have at least 17 posts, I believe.

Once your forum name turns blue you will see little arrows in the right hand corner of the comment box.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#33 Dec 21 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Default
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FF XI has AH yet people somehow manage to make friends in there. Ditto for WoW. What are the games you've played 10 years ago that had AH? I thought AH was pioneered by FF XI and even if you have been playing the Japanese version since launch it's not that old. Could it be that those games were just like FF XIV - no group content at all so the only reason to talk to others is trying to trade?
#34 Dec 21 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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291 posts
It's a different type of friend and a different type of network.

The point being made is that a lack of AH is causing some of us to create business relationships that we probably wouldn't have with an Auction House - that we didn't create (outside of our own LS or personal friends, which we probably met battling or RL or previous online experience) in XI.

Yes, I made plenty of friends in XI. Most of them I met by partying and being social in battle. (Something XIV is kinda lacking right now). They invited me to LSs. I made more friends.

In XIV, the only reason I joined an LS was to find more crafters! That was what I put when I joined. "I'm a Carpenter and I'm looking to network with other crafters to exchange materials and work together."

I would have never done that in XI. I would not have sought out a high-level craft community. I knew a few high level crafters. I asked them to make me gear sometimes, but more often than not (and most of the mats I probably bought on the AH, too, rather than made myself or had made) I bought stuff from the AH without even wondering or caring who made it.

It's adding a huge "personal touch" to every gear I wear. Even who I ask for repairs!

It's different. You don't have to think it's better at all, but it's certainly not the same thing as the relationship building in XI. I also happen to enjoy this aspect of XIV (if you couldn't tell).
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#35 Dec 21 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Good
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I like how since some people prefer AH that AH is the "best" way.

Or that since AH has been successful in other games that it is the "only" way.

Yeah, there are inconveniences with this system but the payoff is the market is more versatile.

I'm not going to bother to explain why because anyone with an IQ over 100 can figure that out for themselves.
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#36 Dec 22 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I always say to arguments like this: You can still interact with people to your heart's content with or without an AH, whereas people who want a real AH will be completely out of luck.

To me not having an AH is like keeping SE's antiquated thought system of timesinks equaling content.

And for a "casual" game wasting time in wards never made much sense.

I'll have to see how this new search works in the wards but an AH will always, be the most efficient catalyst for a healthy economy. Gatherers win, people who make consumables (food and pots) will win, and people who (like in real life) don't want to have to wait to find a simple item will win.

As time goes on retainers will look more like an AH, because that is what most people want.
#37 Dec 22 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Good
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Manosuke the Irrelevant wrote:
RufuSwho wrote:
Search is implemented. If it works well enough, then we can start asking for mail right?


Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Mail System ended up coming part and parcel with the Companies that they are talking about implementing early next year. In my mind it would make sense that the company's base of operations or whatever would serve as a good hub for mail, as opposed to it just magically following you around the world no matter where you go to pick it up.


There is not a mail system in the game? Thats... weird to say the least.
Is there a page where I can see what they are planning to implement in to the game and what is missing? I wonder, what is the current thoughts about FFXIV without being to optimistic, is it a way to get money out of us or will they really work on the game to make it great?
#38FeanaroOnPhoenix, Posted: Dec 22 2010 at 8:54 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I would rather make friends through questing, taking down NM's, grouping in general.
#39 Dec 22 2010 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hi all,

I agree with the author and in this game, relationships are important.

Quote:
I would rather make friends through questing, taking down NM's, grouping in general.
The AH shouldn't impede your friend making abilities.


ff14 isn't a game that puts combatants in front of gatherers and crafters, all jobs have equal standing. (although I have to say... being a gatherer isn't all that fun atm.) Some jobs out there don't go out to hunt much, how then, will you interact with gatherers and crafters as a combatant? repairs?

#40FeanaroOnPhoenix, Posted: Dec 22 2010 at 9:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Certain quests should involve all disciplines, and what's keeping me from befriending a crafter I enlist to make me an item because I don't want to pay what it's going for on the auction house, or there aren't any for sale at the moment?
#41 Dec 22 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Certain quests should involve all disciplines, and what's keeping me from befriending a crafter I enlist to make me an item because I don't want to pay what it's going for on the auction house, or there aren't any for sale at the moment?

I don't see how a retainer system makes the game any more social, instead of interacting with an easily accessible list from an auction house, you're interacting with soulless npc's, carrying players goods.


Thank you, I see your point and I cannot disagree.

I have no facts to back up but I do feel that knowing a crafter/gatherer would be better than scouring through the retainers as compared to the convenient AH.
#42 Dec 22 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Manosuke the Irrelevant wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Yeah, it does. And it forces more interaction. It does take more time to find specific things than it probably would with an Auction House - but yeah, I like that I have to find customers for my products as a DoL, for example.

In FFXI I would just have put my fish on the Auction House and they would have sold to some faceless person somewhere out there. Instead I've been selling and giving my fish away directly to people - forging friendships and business relationships. I can still move product pretty well, but I am getting the added benefit of forging connections.

Yes, it takes longer... but again this really comes down to the two kinds of players- the ones that want to do everything as fast as possible and the ones who enjoy playing the game. If you like doing something, why are you trying to rush through it.


Often times it can even be faster than having the AH to sell stuff, I see it a lot in our LS with people exchanging materials and crafted goods. Honestly with how things go in the K-Club I think the better addition would be a mailbox system. There are so many colabarative crafting efforts in the LS that probably wouldn't happen with an AH system in place, as well as all the bartering we do for supplies and materials. Add in all the random other people i have gotten to know outside the linkshell and I have little to no trouble finding crafters to make stuff or items that I need/want (cus we all know I spend most of my time trying to get my gear colours to match amiright?). The search function is a welcome addition for finding finished goods just a little bit faster but I sincerely doubt I would even try to use it for finding materials or parts.


^ this. It's the same with my LS. If anything we've moved past bartering. Any mats we acquire go to the person that can use them. Ppl need gear made and it gets made and given for free. Last night I got a free leather calot (Awesome btw, I look like a WWI pilot :D) for being a storage unit for 5 minutes. I've met a lot of ppl outside the LS as well by swaping mats or doing repairs. Like Manosuke said, the only thing we(my LS) need is a mail system. Will an AH end all this? No. But it all started because there was no AH, and at this point if they added one I don't really see myself using it too often.

Quote:
(cus we all know I spend most of my time trying to get my gear colours to match amiright?).


I never used to care but then our resident Leatherworker refused to give me anything but red leather gear...now all my gear is red or accentuates the red -.-

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 9:43am by SkinwalkerAsura
#43 Dec 22 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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FeanaroOnPhoenix wrote:
I would rather make friends through questing, taking down NM's, grouping in general.

The AH shouldn't impede your friend making abilities.


And in my OP no where did I say an AH impede's my friend making abilities? I am merely offering a point of view that has become an integral part of my community within FFXIV. I posted my OP to offer an insight into why I think the retainer system might be better then a full blown auction house. It creates bonds, because you better believe I'm going to nicer, and more forthcoming with prices/materials and the likes to people who have the same viewpoint.

Gil is easy to make in this game, gil is evern easier to make if you belong to a group of people that are looking out for each other.

SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
It's the same with my LS. If anything we've moved past bartering. Any mats we acquire go to the person that can use them. Ppl need gear made and it gets made and given for free. Last night I got a free leather calot (Awesome btw, I look like a WWI pilot :D) for being a storage unit for 5 minutes. I've met a lot of ppl outside the LS as well by swaping mats or doing repairs. Like Manosuke said, the only thing we(my LS) need is a mail system. Will an AH end all this? No. But it all started because there was no AH, and at this point if they added one I don't really see myself using it too often.


This is the same thing with my LS, we move tons of materials between each other, synthing items for free with each other. Had there been an AH when this had all started, I highly doubt any of this would have happened.
#44 Dec 22 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Quote:
(cus we all know I spend most of my time trying to get my gear colours to match amiright?).


I never used to care but then our resident Leatherworker refused to give me anything but red leather gear...now all my gear is red or accentuates the red -.-


I dunno about you but I kind of have fun shopping around the wards for my matching gear. Many shenanigans ensue.
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#45 Dec 22 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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OP, you've made the observation that having a harder to use buying and selling improves communication between players. I disagree but thats fine, but where do you draw the line. I'd meet plenty more players in game if I needed another player to help me equip my own gear. But it'd be a pain in the ***, and I'm sure we'd both agree that it'd be silly.. I think that having to shout to find players to help me buy things I can't find is also silly. The system right now discourages making items that don't sell as often until they're requested by people.
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#46 Dec 22 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
This is the same thing with my LS, we move tons of materials between each other, synthing items for free with each other. Had there been an AH when this had all started, I highly doubt any of this would have happened.


Exactly ;)

Quote:
I dunno about you but I kind of have fun shopping around the wards for my matching gear. Many shenanigans ensue.


I voted for the pink coatee with the glasses...but I have a thing for naughty librarians o.O I enjoy shopping around but I always have this problem:

"Just looking for boots just looking for boots just looking for boots just looking for boots...that's a nice hat...oooh gloves...I needed a new belt anyway..."

My current goal is to synth a green gathering set (Jerkin, culottes etc) because said red leather obsessed Leatherworker hates green.
#47 Dec 22 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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KujaKoF wrote:
OP, you've made the observation that having a harder to use buying and selling improves communication between players. I disagree but thats fine, but where do you draw the line. I'd meet plenty more players in game if I needed another player to help me equip my own gear. But it'd be a pain in the ***, and I'm sure we'd both agree that it'd be silly.. I think that having to shout to find players to help me buy things I can't find is also silly. The system right now discourages making items that don't sell as often until they're requested by people.


That's the thing, my whole OP isn't talking about shouting to find items, I'm talking about creating a group of friends from a system that has been deemed as bad by many players. We have become so intertwined with each other, that a linkshell was formed, and now we can pretty much avoid the hassle of having to try and find items in the wards.
#48 Dec 22 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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I feel like no one read my post. :(


It's not about making friends. It's about forming a type of relationship you WOULD NOT HAVE FORMED otherwise.

Could you have? Yes, you could have. We're saying we wouldn't have (and didn't in previous MMOs) because there wasn't a (dire) necessity. This game forced us to and no one here is saying everyone has to like it.

We're just saying we like it. ^_^
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#49 Dec 22 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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That's my thing. Getting on XIV has been depressing. Especially having to rely on this website so much for information. Not that coming here is bad or anything, but it's all the whining and complaining that continues even after all the updates were done for this year. Seriously, just because the game wasn't what you expected in the beginning, doesn't mean it wont be in the future, and nobody really has the right to ***** about it. Some may disagree, but nobody forced YOUR HAND to buy the game and play, especially if you were dumb enough to play despite the negative reviews. I'm still playing but I like the game and the updates are all well and good. I am happy, but I just wish the hecklers would go find their jollies somewhere else. Go ********** playing WoW or something.

Mo
#50 Dec 22 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Kirutaru wrote:
I feel like no one read my post. :(


It's not about making friends. It's about forming a type of relationship you WOULD NOT HAVE FORMED otherwise.

Could you have? Yes, you could have. We're saying we wouldn't have (and didn't in previous MMOs) because there wasn't a (dire) necessity. This game forced us to and no one here is saying everyone has to like it.

We're just saying we like it. ^_^


I think the title of the thread has a lot to do with it. Saying anything AH related is going to get rough because ppl are passionate both ways. Regardless, I like the way my (and many others apparently) LS operates :D
#51 Dec 22 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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SkinwalkerAsura wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
I feel like no one read my post. :(


It's not about making friends. It's about forming a type of relationship you WOULD NOT HAVE FORMED otherwise.

Could you have? Yes, you could have. We're saying we wouldn't have (and didn't in previous MMOs) because there wasn't a (dire) necessity. This game forced us to and no one here is saying everyone has to like it.

We're just saying we like it. ^_^


I think the title of the thread has a lot to do with it. Saying anything AH related is going to get rough because ppl are passionate both ways. Regardless, I like the way my (and many others apparently) LS operates :D


I read your post Kirutaru and you bring up a lot of valid points too, hence my original OP.

Skinwalker,

I was honestly shocked to find out that a lot of other linkshell groups have formed because of the very reasons stated in my OP. It makes me happy knowing that this wasn't just one unusual outcome of many, and that it was more common then naught.
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