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Market Ward Search & Update DetailsFollow

#102 Dec 21 2010 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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I'm glad they improved the old system instead of just removing and replacing it with an auction house. 8)
+1 SE!

Also I like the idea how the search system makes people focus their selling. Not having everyone selling eveything in every ward.
#103 Dec 21 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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The weapon name Macuahuitl is so bad, SE can't even spell it right.
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#104 Dec 22 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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Now I wanna see command lines being able to use inside wards such as
/mark Bronze Sabatons all color  > 100000
and i'm a happy camper XD
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#105 Dec 22 2010 at 12:56 AM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
So you will literally not sell an item if you put it in the wrong ward. Why have the ability to list an item in the wrong ward at all? Nevermind the fact that you will now only be able to sell one type of item on a retainer ever ever ever, why have wards? Why have zombies standing around you have to search one at a time? How is the game improved by that? What is made better by that?


I don't know that it's much of an improvement to be honest.

You know, it's the small things that make the game enjoyable or completely annoying. This is one of those things. I know what they were trying to accomplish but they made all the wrong moves.
#106 Dec 22 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
In my opinion this way is just like an ah but i think i like it just as much or better because it isn't just go to a ward and search but before you even get there search I personally love it I was very against it in the beginning but SE has put full faith back in me I really believe they are headed towards something epic but then again im high and drunk!
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#107 Dec 22 2010 at 2:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Avebian wrote:
Don't get me wrong I love the search being added, but does anyone else feel like it's going to be a pain in the *** to search each ward individually? I was kind of expecting a more global search.


Indeed... what a waste of an update imo... I was quite pleased with the others and I was looking forward to this one but I feel I've been royally let down...
#108 Dec 22 2010 at 2:22 AM Rating: Good
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I'm 90% happy with MW now.

Now game me, Game content!

thx btw ^^
#109 Dec 22 2010 at 2:29 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Searched for a shield... found the shield right away. Not only can I not complain, but I think... I think that I may be liking this more than an AH, contrary to what I was thinking in the past. Gods help me, I may actually be enjoying something slightly different!


Yea I agree, I like the versatility in it in that you can post stuff up for sale - now they're easy to find (buy/sell) and you can post stuff up for "seeking" and "fixing" and on top of that no prices are written in blood, you dictate what price you want to sell whatever item for...if its something you crafted, you know how much work went into it, you know how much gil went into it, you can look up to see what its required for (say a certain craft) and gauge an appropriate price for it. Thumbs up from me.
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#110 Dec 22 2010 at 2:34 AM Rating: Good
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i welcome a 1 hour search for an item over a 2 hour search anyday.


1 hour?? I haven't properly equipped myself since this game was released, after the patch I went into the Jeweler's Ward in Ul'Dah, looked up brass earings, found 2 on 2 different retainers, marked them, bought them, equipped them - look up brass rings, found 3 on 2 different retainers, one +1, marked them, bought them, equipped them. Switched to Battlecraft Ward, looked up elm bow, found 1, bought it, equipped it - took me all about 10 minutes AND on top of that one guy was seeking earth shards and wind shards so I came out of there with a profit...I dunno about you but that is 10 minutes well spent.
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#111 Dec 22 2010 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I still see retainers selling 10 of the non-weapon related items in Battlecraft wards lol. Sometimes if you can't find what you are looking for thru the search, doesn't mean no one is selling them in the market wards, you'll still need to browse around one by one unless SE put a 50-75% tax to seller on items non-related to the ward they are in to better police this system.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 2:05am by Nyariko
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#112 Dec 22 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Good
Nyariko wrote:
I still see retainers selling 10 of the non-weapon related items in Battlecraft wards lol. Sometimes if you can't find what you are looking for thru the search, doesn't mean no one is selling them in the market wards, you'll still need to browse around one by one unless SE put a 50-75% tax to seller on items non-related to the ward they are in to better police this system.]


As was said earlier in the thread, if you search in the correct ward, items located in other wards will be marked as well, you just won't be told which ward they're in. If you're really desperate for an item, you'll still have to visit other wards, but eventually you'll find the other marked retainers.
#113 Dec 22 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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timothyjoelwright wrote:
Nyariko wrote:
I still see retainers selling 10 of the non-weapon related items in Battlecraft wards lol. Sometimes if you can't find what you are looking for thru the search, doesn't mean no one is selling them in the market wards, you'll still need to browse around one by one unless SE put a 50-75% tax to seller on items non-related to the ward they are in to better police this system.]


As was said earlier in the thread, if you search in the correct ward, items located in other wards will be marked as well, you just won't be told which ward they're in. If you're really desperate for an item, you'll still have to visit other wards, but eventually you'll find the other marked retainers.


Thanks for clearing this up, I'll check it out tonight. ^^
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#114 Dec 22 2010 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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S-E is operating like they have got years of time to tinker and take baby steps towards their goals, when in reality they are already past their window with a lot of people, and rapidly running out of time and losing patience from many others. The market search needs to be a home run, and this seems more like reaching base on a broken bat dribbler and an error.

IMO it's just too little, too late for those who were hoping for rapid improvements in this area.
#115 Dec 22 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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The search should incorporate in the future buy requests as well as sell orders.

A market works on demand and supply, so why only cater to sellers? It should work both ways in order to keep the basic premises of any economy alive and thriving.

There are other post, but I will say that seek [buy] orders make no sense at this moment.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:52am by teothefox
#116 Dec 22 2010 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis wrote:
S-E is operating like they have got years of time to tinker and take baby steps towards their goals, when in reality they are already past their window with a lot of people, and rapidly running out of time and losing patience from many others. The market search needs to be a home run, and this seems more like reaching base on a broken bat dribbler and an error.

IMO it's just too little, too late for those who were hoping for rapid improvements in this area.


Agreed. SE has conceded on many other facets of the game. I don't know why they are trying to reinvent the wheel here.

A search didn't work for me, but I don't think I did it right.

Regardless, that sentence shouldn't come up when trying to buy something in any MMO.

10+ years and several MMOs in between and I haven't had as many problems or as much disdain working with an economy as I do in this game.
#117 Dec 22 2010 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
i welcome a 1 hour search for an item over a 2 hour search anyday.


1 hour?? I haven't properly equipped myself since this game was released, after the patch I went into the Jeweler's Ward in Ul'Dah, looked up brass earings, found 2 on 2 different retainers, marked them, bought them, equipped them - look up brass rings, found 3 on 2 different retainers, one +1, marked them, bought them, equipped them. Switched to Battlecraft Ward, looked up elm bow, found 1, bought it, equipped it - took me all about 10 minutes AND on top of that one guy was seeking earth shards and wind shards so I came out of there with a profit...I dunno about you but that is 10 minutes well spent.


Could not say it better
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#118 Dec 22 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
i welcome a 1 hour search for an item over a 2 hour search anyday.

1 hour?? I haven't properly equipped myself since this game was released, after the patch I went into the Jeweler's Ward in Ul'Dah, looked up brass earings, found 2 on 2 different retainers, marked them, bought them, equipped them - look up brass rings, found 3 on 2 different retainers, one +1, marked them, bought them, equipped them. Switched to Battlecraft Ward, looked up elm bow, found 1, bought it, equipped it - took me all about 10 minutes AND on top of that one guy was seeking earth shards and wind shards so I came out of there with a profit...I dunno about you but that is 10 minutes well spent.

Could not say it better


Ditto.
my two retainers sold out in a couple hours. filled... slept, woke up to more $$ and less ores and gems in my inventory.

And here are my thoughts on an AH system being used.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=152&mid=1292991442193271164#msg1293025715184656951

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 9:18am by drogier
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#119 Dec 22 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Default
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
chopstx wrote:
It's a bit helpful, but I don't like the restriction of item types to wards.


I do, if people refuse to organize themselves, SE will eventually force them to. Regardless if people sell "more than 1 type", there's still far too many people selling marmot pelts in the weapon wards >.>


Yes, because clearly it's the players faults that they have to deal with Square-Enix's halfass method of establishing an economy with bazaars. Because, clearly, no one is ever supposed to sell more than one type of item in a bazaar at any point in time.

tylerbee wrote:
Some people are never happy and will continue to be inflexible.

Good work SE, now lets see an SP fix and i'll consider coming back.


You know why they're not happy? The unhappy people are upset because we don't equate table scraps to a full meal.

And sadly, the same people with blinders on are happy with just that.

Pikko wrote:
Personally, I'm not all that thrilled with it. It looks extremely tedious. I get the point and what they're trying to do, but this isn't exactly what I had in mind. What I had wanted was the ability to know where in the world I'm supposed to go to find what I need. I don't want to travel to three different cities for the CHANCE that someone might be selling it in the right ward. I would like to be able to just search and get a list telling me where I need to go.


Thank you.

The bottom line is Square-ENix is going to waste more and more development time to try to push off this shoddy method of player interaction for a virtual economy. It'll get more and more convoluted, more and more pointless, and every single update the *logical* question would be asked "Why don't you just give in, design an actual auction house, save yourself a ton of grief and extra work, and be done with it?"

Why won't they? Because they're **** bent on shoving that damned square peg into the round hole. And some people are foolish enough to think "GEE GOLLY THAT MAKES SENSE SE! GOOD JOB!"

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 9:18am by StrijderVechter
#120 Dec 22 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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TauuOfSiren wrote:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/8151/macuahuimeh.jpg

The weapon name Macuahuitl is so bad, SE can't even spell it right.


lol, I've done this before with my RPGs (especially if its being translated from or to Japanese), it's a weird name in all languages to be honest >.>
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#121 Dec 22 2010 at 8:29 AM Rating: Decent
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We will have to wait a few days, to see how good it works. SE needs to bring our retainers back on-line after each patch.
Most players forget or do not know they must re-summon retainer. It is very annoying not being able to buy anything for DAYs after a patch (that happens once a week)

You can SEARCH, but good luck finding anything with no retainers online.
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#122 Dec 22 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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So now that I've spent a few minutes trying the new "search" feature all I can say is definitely better than nothing.

I was gonna post, "how I am supposed to know what item (mats specifically) should be listed in what ward?", but I will make it easier on people who really don't know as I just figured it out myself.

You you will need a reference guide: Access to the description of what items falls into each ward. The Lodestone page has this, I have linked it below. FYI, printing this out if you play in full screen is recommended :)

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=e9e976fd34cacd564cb8e9d862b2c75c9b8d356f

Gear: When in Inventory, when you highlight the item you get your item description. You get the icon of item & off to the right you get the "Name of Item", next "slot/type" <-- Ward, next "Suits/Favors", finally "Optimal Rank"

Example: Canvas Coif says "Headwear" falls into Tailors Ward, Bronze Sallet says "Helm" falls into Armor Fitters ward, Garlon Goggles says "Eyewear" falls into Jewelers Ward even though it is head slot.

Items/Mats: This is easier. Highlight item, off to right of Icon you get "Name of Item", next you get Qty and "type" <-- Ward

Example: Copper Ore.. you will get the icon of it.. the Name: Copper Ore & below you get the, 6/12 (Qty) & finally "Type" Ore

Copper Ore falls into Masons Ward (Ores), Bronze Nugget in Iron Mongers Ward (Unrefined Metals), Bronze Nails & Bronze Rivets in Iron Mongers Ward (Metals), Flax in Clothiers Ward (Fiber), Bone Chip in Tanners Ward (Bone)

All this again, you need to cross reference w/ Ward Descriptions.. a pain?.. or just learning curve? :)

I hope this helps, took me a bit to write this, but link this somewhere else if you on a LS or copy/paste, whatev and don't forget to bump this! :)
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#123 Dec 22 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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I'm a little disappointed that you can't search for multiple items at once, but overall I'm extremely pleased with what SE has done with the wards. Now I can't wait for an adjustment to the SP party bonus and whatever they have planned for the next big update.

There are big things one the way, can't you just feel it?
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#124 Dec 22 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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This is a huge improvement and I like that it will even mark the retainers who have the item that are in other wards but why not just go ahead and say which ward it is? This is still a very convoluted system when you consider it's supposed to be the primary way of buying and selling goods. This isn't supposed to be a minigame, an adventure or anything else.

Gods help us when they do implement a mail system. It will probably require you to go to the physical mailbox from which an item was mailed. You'll get a little blurb saying you've got mail and it won't even tell you from what mailbox it was sent. Then have to travel around trying to find that specific mailbox to get it. The whole time having some players cry out from the rooftops that it's like that to make it harder for the RMT to send and receive items so it's a good thing. That's a major exaggeration... The mail system, not the part about some people claiming it was a good thing.

Are people really so bored with the game that they want challenge, adventure and excitement from a commerce system? You're supposed to be buying and selling goods. Anything that complicates/interferes with your doing so is a bad thing. Undoubtedly someone will say that the RMT can monopolize this item or that item which interferes with the buying and selling of goods and I'll say yes, yes they can. They can do that no matter what because they have time.

I just don't... Look... I get that some people are bored and want some kinds of distractions but that shouldn't be core systems. Things that everyone utilizes and relies on should be as streamlined as possible.
#125 Dec 22 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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The ward system is one of the things I find most interesting about the game, to be honest. When I first heard there was no AH, I was scared. But I think this is an awesome idea. That's not to say they have it perfect yet, but it's clear that they are working on it.

What people need to realize is that it will probably never be an AH. Stop evaluating changes in terms of how much AH-like efficiency they afford you. Because the wards aren't meant to provide the same purpose.

Ultimately, the goal of both is provide a place to buy and sell goods--they both do that. But they can also include other purposes, and this is where things get interesting.

The AH in XI did all the work for you--including telling you what to expect to buy/sell for. And because all available goods were grouped into the AH, people who wanted to buy out markets to relist at higher prices were easily able to manipulate the system and turn a profit.

Take something like fire crystals. I remember they sold for like 500-700 gil a stack when I first started playing XI. But then people started buying the cheap crystals and relisting them for more. And this went on nonstop. Eventually, stacks of crystals were going for ridiculously huge amounts like 10k a stack, because inflation was huge all around.

But imagine those crystals being sold in a system where they are spread throughout a market. You can't just walk up to a building and buy out the lower stock and relist them. Now you have to find everyone selling them, buy their stock, and relist at your own stall. But people are actually encouraged to shop now, so anyone offering crystals cheaper is going to beat you out. And it's far harder to rule a market when you don't have to just sit at the AH refreshing a menu--now there's actual work to it (it's actually, y'know, a market).

In the end, this protects the normal player while still allowing the market savvy to be smart (for example, someone mentioned including repair items with weapons). You don't need to stop there. If you are listing crafting materials for a recipe that will make use of something from another ward, list that too. Your buyer will see it when they come looking for your item, and might just buy it. Selling food? Why not toss in some potions and other battle items, too?

Furthermore, there are other ways to play the market. Figure out what items you have are going to be most searched for, and place your retainer in that ward. Now, any items that don't belong there will still be seen by anyone passing by looking for something specific. Sure, you won't sell them as fast as if your retainer was in their ward, but you'll still sell some. And when your supply of the popular item is nearly spent, you can change your ward next time.

On the opposite end of inflation, it protects you from rampant undercutting. When someone sees your item at a price they are okay with, it is probably in their best interests to buy it. They don't know that someone is selling for cheaper, and they risk having to spend more if they don't go for it. So this actually rewards selling fewer of an item, rather than building up a huge stock. If you are selling 100 of x item for 500 gil, then the buyer isn't worried about you running out any time soon. So they're free to look for the retainer selling them at 400 gil.

Nothing is more annoying on WoW's AH, for instance, when you put up 4 stacks of an item for a reasonable price and someone else comes along and inexplicably places the same item for 15% less. And then someone else does it to them. So now the market plunges and everyone loses (using an auction addon will even let you find items that you can buy off the AH and sell to a vendor for profit). >:(

Does it require strategy? Yes. Does it just let you run to an AH and get your item? No.

What it does is turn shopping and market-playing into part of the actual game experience, which is impressive. It rewards selling on a limited stock, rather than forcing players to get whole stacks of items together for people to even see them (a la XI's AH). This also keeps players from spending 6 hours a week killing the same mob nonstop.

And it ensures that the crafting jobs aren't going to end up requiring you to have 500,000k in your bank just to get to level 10, like in XI.

Really, I like it way better. It'll have kinks, but those will be worked out in time (maybe giving you the ability to "flag" a few items, with a cap, so that they can be seen cross-wards would work?)
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#126 Dec 22 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Mistress Theonehio wrote:
chopstx wrote:
It's a bit helpful, but I don't like the restriction of item types to wards.


I do, if people refuse to organize themselves, SE will eventually force them to. Regardless if people sell "more than 1 type", there's still far too many people selling marmot pelts in the weapon wards >.>


Yes, because clearly it's the players faults that they have to deal with Square-Enix's halfass method of establishing an economy with bazaars. Because, clearly, no one is ever supposed to sell more than one type of item in a bazaar at any point in time.

tylerbee wrote:
Some people are never happy and will continue to be inflexible.

Good work SE, now lets see an SP fix and i'll consider coming back.


You know why they're not happy? The unhappy people are upset because we don't equate table scraps to a full meal.

And sadly, the same people with blinders on are happy with just that.

Pikko wrote:
Personally, I'm not all that thrilled with it. It looks extremely tedious. I get the point and what they're trying to do, but this isn't exactly what I had in mind. What I had wanted was the ability to know where in the world I'm supposed to go to find what I need. I don't want to travel to three different cities for the CHANCE that someone might be selling it in the right ward. I would like to be able to just search and get a list telling me where I need to go.


Thank you.

The bottom line is Square-ENix is going to waste more and more development time to try to push off this shoddy method of player interaction for a virtual economy. It'll get more and more convoluted, more and more pointless, and every single update the *logical* question would be asked "Why don't you just give in, design an actual auction house, save yourself a ton of grief and extra work, and be done with it?"

Why won't they? Because they're **** bent on shoving that damned square peg into the round hole. And some people are foolish enough to think "GEE GOLLY THAT MAKES SENSE SE! GOOD JOB!"

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 9:18am by StrijderVechter


Sounds like a post that was written back in September when they announced they would actually implement a search function. The system has evolved and if you read the comments from people who have actually tried it, almost everyone loves the new system.

The post you are "thanking" only said that "it LOOKS tedious". It's not tedious.

Everyone I spoke to in the game is really enthusiastic about the recent changes and I don't see how that could make them stupid since they are the ones who actually use the improved features.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 10:38am by northernsky
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#127 Dec 22 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
The ward system is one of the things I find most interesting about the game, to be honest. When I first heard there was no AH, I was scared. But I think this is an awesome idea. That's not to say they have it perfect yet, but it's clear that they are working on it.



This.

Exactly why there is so much bashing from people who have not even tried the new system. They just don't want it to be good unless it becomes a clone of something they have used in the past.

Now, that doesn't mean the wards are perfect and can't be improved anymore, but they are definitely efficient and promising.
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#128 Dec 22 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Default
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Aside from my usual "hiding prices deliberately raises prices for sellers and screws over buyers", I've realized that I've got another huge problem with this system. As it works right now, they are doing everything in their power, to prevent me from efficiently selling loot from grinding/leves. I don't craft, and at the end of the day, I get say 3 types of crystals/shards I want to sell, 1 leve reward coif I don't plan to use, some skins etc. As of now, the game has developed in such a way that I'll likely have to reset my retainer several times just to sell one days worth of items. Or I'll have to hold on to everything until I've got 10 items of a category before I can put a retainer up with them. Now I know I've got 2 retainers plus myself, however having to manage all that is definitely stepping on the efficient title i was talking about.
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#129 Dec 22 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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I am loving this new search. I have been avoiding buying gear, and ussually crafting the gear I wear because I could never find what I wanted. I logged in, and bought a full set of DOL/DOH gear. Spend 300k, and now have gear that I will be happy with for the next 2-6 months at a minimum as I level all my doh and dol jobs. And was able to just log in, run to the ward, buy the gear, and log out.

I have to say I am very happy with it, and can't wait for the keyword search (and for quests...)
#131 Dec 22 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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You're right it is also a clever system in which to possibly sell not only the items, but accompanying and interesting items to go with it for those who wish to. The retainer system has so much promise and always did, but seeing how and what was needed to do it was left for those white knights who had some vision as Tanaka (if he's responsible for it) did.

By all means this bare bones search system, while heavily flawed is already portrayed by SE to be a mere placeholder until a better version is released showing prices and such. I doubt you'll ever be able to purchase directly from the item search counter, but who knows. The option now clearly exists for it, the dots are starting to get connected.

I am happy enough to say that these AH now threads were ignored because a better vision of what to come was and probably has been known to SE since probably beta. This search function indeed is a server stressing and complex query task, and back before nov 25th I would have imagined this fix capable of crashing the servers. Even as late as Dec 15th which the retainers were slow seem to have been a hold off of the search to ensure one key thing.

The search function would not lag itself out of player use! Remember how long searching your retainer was? Why bother putting in a search with scours the wards looking for items in a crammed room if it will take 5 minutes to look for it and return the results. This had to be built, perfected for release and QUICK. So much was riding on even this basic search for so long that the player base can truly see just how far XIV will go to fix itself. Even in the patch notes.

". Given the high level of demand by players for this function, we will be continuing to enhance it in the future to improve its effectiveness and ease of use. This first release will grant players the ability to search all retainer bazaars in the market for specific items."

"With the introduction of the item search feature, it will now be significantly easier for players to locate specific items. We will continue to improve this system with further enhancements such as keyword-based searches, the ability to show the retainers selling an item at the lowest prices for searches returning numerous hits as with synthesis materials, and more. Concrete details regarding such information will be released in future Topics posts here on the Lodestone as they become available."

These paragraphs accompanying its release are probably missed by most, but this shows even with the current search it is not even 25% of what we WILL be getting to do. Now when the listed aspects are done, it will be equal if not greater then an AH by its very nature.
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#132 Dec 22 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Aside from my usual "hiding prices deliberately raises prices for sellers and screws over buyers", I've realized that I've got another huge problem with this system.


What I've experienced in every MMO I've ever played is that showing prices either leads to markets crashing, due to undercutting, or to price gouging through monopolies (which is basically a TL;DR note on my previous post). It hurts the sellers and the buyer equally--only those people with the interest in forming the monopolies win out. And many games have some people who do little other than that. And I can't criticize them for it--it's legitimately allowed by the game structure and ToA. But it still sucks and I'm happy to see a system that simultaneously protects buyers, sellers and the crafting structure of the game.

The thing is that this is a realistic system. The buyer gets to choose to hunt for a cheaper price or buy it at that moment. They are TOTALLY able to get the cheapest price possible, but the fact that other people want it too doesn't guarantee that--it's the same on the AH.

The difference is that this system is more resistant to inflation, so people are going to list prices for closer to what they are worth opposed to a market system that forces people to pay more.
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#133 Dec 22 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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From lodestone, coming in 2011:

Quote:

2011 updates:
The addition of a sale/purchase history


http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=cb4dc09784bc24b4fde2e45de9f018ec5fb504d2

#134 Dec 22 2010 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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82 posts
idiggory wrote:
Quote:
Aside from my usual "hiding prices deliberately raises prices for sellers and screws over buyers", I've realized that I've got another huge problem with this system.


What I've experienced in every MMO I've ever played is that showing prices either leads to markets crashing, due to undercutting, or to price gouging through monopolies (which is basically a TL;DR note on my previous post). It hurts the sellers and the buyer equally--only those people with the interest in forming the monopolies win out. And many games have some people who do little other than that. And I can't criticize them for it--it's legitimately allowed by the game structure and ToA. But it still sucks and I'm happy to see a system that simultaneously protects buyers, sellers and the crafting structure of the game.

The thing is that this is a realistic system. The buyer gets to choose to hunt for a cheaper price or buy it at that moment. They are TOTALLY able to get the cheapest price possible, but the fact that other people want it too doesn't guarantee that--it's the same on the AH.

The difference is that this system is more resistant to inflation, so people are going to list prices for closer to what they are worth opposed to a market system that forces people to pay more.


I agree one million percent with Idiggory here. At the end of the day, the law of supply and demand will reign supreme, regardless of the system which is implemented. People will never pay more than what any given item is worth to them. It cannot be considered "price gouging" if people are willing to pay xxxx amount for said item. When the price reaches a height which people are unwilling to tolerate, it will simply cease to sell. "Price Gougers" merely punish themselves in the end.
#135 Dec 22 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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1,606 posts
idiggory wrote:
Quote:
Aside from my usual "hiding prices deliberately raises prices for sellers and screws over buyers", I've realized that I've got another huge problem with this system.


What I've experienced in every MMO I've ever played is that showing prices either leads to markets crashing, due to undercutting, or to price gouging through monopolies (which is basically a TL;DR note on my previous post). It hurts the sellers and the buyer equally--only those people with the interest in forming the monopolies win out. And many games have some people who do little other than that. And I can't criticize them for it--it's legitimately allowed by the game structure and ToA. But it still sucks and I'm happy to see a system that simultaneously protects buyers, sellers and the crafting structure of the game.

The thing is that this is a realistic system. The buyer gets to choose to hunt for a cheaper price or buy it at that moment. They are TOTALLY able to get the cheapest price possible, but the fact that other people want it too doesn't guarantee that--it's the same on the AH.

The difference is that this system is more resistant to inflation, so people are going to list prices for closer to what they are worth opposed to a market system that forces people to pay more.

Won't people trying to sell something likely look and see what it's presently going for just the same? This is (or apparently will be) an auction house with additional steps. The undercutting may well be worse than an AH.
Ace's post wrote:
"With the introduction of the item search feature, it will now be significantly easier for players to locate specific items. We will continue to improve this system with further enhancements such as keyword-based searches, the ability to show the retainers selling an item at the lowest prices for searches returning numerous hits as with synthesis materials, and more. Concrete details regarding such information will be released in future Topics posts here on the Lodestone as they become available."

It's going to show the cheapest few (depending on the item perhaps) so people will be going straight to those. People will always be trying to make sure theirs is the cheapest or they may as well NPC it if the search will show only them. I'm just concerned how much time, effort and manpower they are putting into making an AH that they can say isn't an AH. Aren't there bigger concerns?
#136NBBV8236, Posted: Dec 22 2010 at 11:02 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This is a Band-aid fix on a problem that should not even be there. Stop wasting time trying to "fix" this system. Put in an AH and hopefully the few remaining players will be able to find each other to start buying and selling items. maybe even get an economy going 3 months after it should have started.
#137 Dec 22 2010 at 11:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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170 posts
NBBV8236 wrote:
This is a Band-aid fix on a problem that should not even be there. Stop wasting time trying to "fix" this system. Put in an AH and hopefully the few remaining players will be able to find each other to start buying and selling items. maybe even get an economy going 3 months after it should have started.


Troll harder.
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#139 Dec 22 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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1,636 posts
JerryTheMule wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I'm happy they've made the buying process faster, even if there is still an obstacle course of hoops to jump through.

I'm disappointed they still think that hiding prices is a good thing. At best its a time sink, and at worst it errors most translations in favor of the seller.



I can see a "Price History" but I doubt there will ever be prices. There were no prices in FFXI.. I doubt there will be here.. No prices is better for the market and economy.


No prices on the search screen means one thing. You have to go check for prices. It simply tells you which retainers are worth checking. Now in order for the buyer to make an informed decision, he's going to take a bunch of time, or he can guess by picking from one of the prices that are available to him in whatever limited searching he does.

At the end of the day, I think an efficient market is a better one. You do not. Thats what the debate should be broken down to. Personally I'd rather items be sold at equilibrium price.
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#140 Dec 22 2010 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
AceAmallie wrote:
NBBV8236 wrote:
This is a Band-aid fix on a problem that should not even be there. Stop wasting time trying to "fix" this system. Put in an AH and hopefully the few remaining players will be able to find each other to start buying and selling items. maybe even get an economy going 3 months after it should have started.


Troll harder.


LOL
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#141 Dec 22 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
6 posts
What they should do is NOT allow a retainer in a ward unless they have at least one item that fits the ward. and if that item sells they have a game day or a game week or maybe till JP midnight before their retainer is kicked out. That way it will kick out all the people selling crap in the wrong wards, and enforce people selling the right stuff in the right places.
#142 Dec 22 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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415 posts
Kierk wrote:
10+ years and several MMOs in between and I haven't had as many problems or as much disdain working with an economy as I do in this game.

You haven't played many MMO's then.

Most of the most popular and successful Asian MMO's revolve around bazaar-driven economies, and some with no search function to speak of.

Yet there are still very successfully established economies and close-knit marketing communities in those games because of it.

Implying something as baseless as "we can't have an economy without an AH" just proves you people have nothing better to do than troll about every little aspect of this game.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:37pm by SoumaKyou
#143 Dec 22 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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626 posts
Quote:
The difference is that this system is more resistant to inflation, so people are going to list prices for closer to what they are worth opposed to a market system that forces people to pay more.


how do you decide how much something is worth though? i ask because so far ingame prices seem to be completely random, there are only a few things i see with a more consistant price range, but thats the minority. is it because its just too early in the games economy for prices to generalize themselves?
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#144 Dec 22 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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415 posts
pixelpop wrote:
Quote:
The difference is that this system is more resistant to inflation, so people are going to list prices for closer to what they are worth opposed to a market system that forces people to pay more.


how do you decide how much something is worth though? i ask because so far ingame prices seem to be completely random, there are only a few things i see with a more consistant price range, but thats the minority. is it because its just too early in the games economy for prices to generalize themselves?

People will begin to notice pricing trends and price accordingly. Buyers will begin to see that they can get something for a lower price, and sellers will notice that their wares aren't selling and will adjust prices accordingly. It's how any market starts. Even AH-based economies start out this way.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:45pm by SoumaKyou
#145 Dec 22 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Default
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219 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:

You haven't played many MMO's then.

Most of the most popular and successful Asian MMO's revolve around bazaar-driven economies, and some with no search function to speak of.

Yet there are still very successfully established economies and close-knit marketing communities in those games because of it.

Implying something as baseless as "we can't have an economy without an AH" just proves you people have nothing better to do than troll about every little aspect of this game.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:37pm by SoumaKyou



No...Based on your logic, what it proves is that they were either wrong, uninformed or, if you want to be mean, ignorant. Claiming they have "nothing better to do than troll" is not the logical conclusion and a total assumption on your part. ME on the other hand, for pointing this out, you could easily argue I have nothing better to do than troll.
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#146 Dec 22 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Good
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812 posts
pixelpop wrote:
how do you decide how much something is worth though?

the same way you would in real life. If it's a crafted item, your costs plus what you feel your labor is worth, plus a small percentage for profit. It's not that hard to figure out really.
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#147 Dec 22 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Kierk wrote:
10+ years and several MMOs in between and I haven't had as many problems or as much disdain working with an economy as I do in this game.

You haven't played many MMO's then.

Most of the most popular and successful Asian MMO's revolve around bazaar-driven economies, and some with no search function to speak of.

Yet there are still very successfully established economies and close-knit marketing communities in those games because of it.

Implying something as baseless as "we can't have an economy without an AH" just proves you people have nothing better to do than troll about every little aspect of this game.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:37pm by SoumaKyou


Ragnarok Online comes to mind... The good old days when I'd plop my character down in a given area, setup a chat room with an item I'm selling / wanting to buy, then letting him sit overnight to see if anyone leaves a message with an offer, then I'd track them down the next day to make my deal. Good times indeed. If the new advanced classes weren't so hard to obtain I'd probably still play.
#148 Dec 22 2010 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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I love the search...I HATE how often the reset the freaking wards though. I did a search, found the item I wanted, and enter the ward right as the reset the whole thing...meaning all retainers gone and the item I wanted along with it.
#149 Dec 22 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
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415 posts
ThePacster wrote:

Ragnarok Online comes to mind... The good old days when I'd plop my character down in a given area, setup a chat room with an item I'm selling / wanting to buy, then letting him sit overnight to see if anyone leaves a message with an offer, then I'd track them down the next day to make my deal. Good times indeed. If the new advanced classes weren't so hard to obtain I'd probably still play.

Exactly! The system allowed people to know who the best Blacksmiths were, with the best prices and highest success rates. I loved setting up shop in Morroc and just chatting with others who were taking breaks from grinding.
#150 Dec 22 2010 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
It's definitely a strong improvement I'll give them that, but unfortunately it's still just making a straightforward process a needlessly complicated procedure. I kinda figured this was how SE was planning on implementing the search but I always hoped they'd surprise me and make something nicer.
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#151 Dec 22 2010 at 9:53 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Kierk wrote:
10+ years and several MMOs in between and I haven't had as many problems or as much disdain working with an economy as I do in this game.

You haven't played many MMO's then.

Most of the most popular and successful Asian MMO's revolve around bazaar-driven economies, and some with no search function to speak of.

Yet there are still very successfully established economies and close-knit marketing communities in those games because of it.

Implying something as baseless as "we can't have an economy without an AH" just proves you people have nothing better to do than troll about every little aspect of this game.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:37pm by SoumaKyou



Among the many MMOs I've played, Ragnarök Online was one of them. When I played it 8 years ago (in that context) that economy was fine; it's bazzar system worked.

Today I don't see a reason NOT to have an AH especially for a "casual" AAA game. I would have assumed SE would have improved on what is now commonly accepted for an economy, not taking steps backward.

Lastly, debasing other's arguments implying that those who have contrary opinons are trolls when you're clearly making excuses for a broken system is inane.

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