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A no-AH economy suggestion to complement retainersFollow

#1 Dec 22 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
OK - just to clear the air before I start - if you're one of those ppl who just want an AH and who is just gonna respond to this by saying "you know what would be better - AN AH!!!", or "...or instead, they could just give us an AH!!!!" I really don't want to hear from you. I've already heard it said a hundred times before, it's nothing new, and I really just don't want to hear it again. So please, if the comment you were thinking of making was anything along those lines, please just go whinge and moan about it somewhere else and save time for you and me both.

This is a suggestion to complement the existing retainer/market wards system. I've copy & pasted this from my lodestone blog. It was put up just before the ward search feature was introduced, but I still feel it would only complement / enhance the existing market experience.

For your consideration :

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Hello to any who are reading this,

|o/

Just considering the Eorzean economy from the possibility that the SE devs never get around to introducing an Auction House. What alternate things could be done to help improve the game in place of an Auction House?

Whatever 'market access' system SE chooses to introduce or enhance (if no auction house), it would need to be complementary to the existing retainer bazaar / ward markets system. The biggest complaint people seem to make (apart from not being able to instantaneously compare prices in the one place) is having to check through hundreds of crappy bazaar lists to try and find the one item they want. If it's there at all. So I suggest an alternative to have to bazaar search for items....

Junk Shop NPC!!

The devs seem to want to mimic real life so much - well 'junk' or 'pawn' shops are _everywhere_ in real life.

The real life mechanics of Junk Shops are that a person is offered a price for goods they want to sell, and then the Junk Shop marks up the price exorbitantly to make a profit themselves ^^. The price offered to the person selling would need to be beneficial enough that the seller makes the effort of bringing their goods to that Junk Shop.

There are 3 ways I see this working in Eorzean markets:

(1) sell to any NPC at the existing discounted sell price, all goods sold are then forwarded from all NPC stall holders to a central Junk Shop NPC who on-sells those items at a price the item would normally cost if the price was determined by a NPC seller, not a player.

Example - A cotton boll currently sells to NPCs for 106, but if it is purchased from an NPC it costs 4636. So, in this (1) suggestion, all items sold by all adventureres across an area (I envisage this being area based - Thanalan, La Noesca, Black Shroud) are accummulated by central Junk Shop NPC who then offers them for sale.

The problem with the above is that the list of items available would be HUUUUGE, and horrible to scroll through, which then leads on to suggestion....

(2) There be specialised Junk Shop NPCs. The items adventurer's sell to NPCs are only onsold to other adventurers if it is sold to that specialist Junk Shop NPC. There would need to be a bonus price offered to sellers to encourage them to sell to these specific NPCs.

Example - Junk Shop stall A buys and sells hides for leathercraft. Junk Shop stall B buys and sells fieldcraft tools. NPC stall C is a general seller.

An Adventurer has a Buffalo Hide to sell.

Buffalo Hides normally cost 24,000 to buy, but they sell to NPC vendors for 504.

-> If the Adventurer sells it to the specialist stall A they get a special price of, perhaps 2016? The hide is then included in the existing stock of items held by stall A to on-sell to other Adventurers.
-> If the Adventurer sells to stall B, as stall B does not specialise in hides for leathercraft, the stall holder will not purchase the item from the adventurer.
-> If the Adventurer sells to stall C, the stall holder will purchase the item at the regular price of 504 only, and the item is not able to then be on-sold to other Adventurers.

(3) Further - the specialist Junk Shop stalls could be placed within the relevant market ward. Or - if the devs wanted to encourage visits to outlying towns, the specialist stall could be placed in those outlying townships instead. This could potentially help to develop the atmosphere/community in those outlying townships perhaps ^^.



I would see this as solving two problems with the existing system:

- Removes crap/junk stuff from retainer bazaars so that adventurers focus on doing their own specialist sales instead of just putting up any old thing that drops.

- Removes the problem of time waste for adventurers who don't want to spend an hour searching for a relatively low value item.
#2 Dec 22 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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wow, fantastic idea IMO!
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#3 Dec 22 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
Also - some comments added to the blog post by others which add to the discussion so far :
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(me)
Would also make retainer bazaars more competitive (not that they aren't already) as they would need to compete with the Junk Shop's prices.

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(Remnant)
I like this idea, I like the reatiners, as they give the game a more personal feel, yet I know others wish to see everything they want all together. This is a good compromise. Letting people choose between quick but expensive or searched for and cheap.


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(Geesus)
Ok...so after I read your post Kahri, I was a bit concerned while definately intrigued that, this sort of sounds like an AH without the "title" of an AH.

Now, idk, it's difficult to explain what I'm thinking, really tired, ~.~ but, let me try. Ok so, what if they took our retainers and when we place items up for sale, the items were actually placed on a retainer, (same as your actual one as far as how they look and are named) and your retainer "appeared" in multiple Wards, Dens, etc with the correct items being sold in the proper place? So for example: I have a potion and a weapon. I place both items up for sale on my retainer Lalafell Timon. Now, Kahri goes to the Battlecraft ward and sees Timon and purchases my weapon. But while she's shopping in that ward, Remnant is in the Chirurgeons Ward buying from the SAME retainer named Timon purchasing the potion on sale.

This will keep the visual of dealing with non-related items in a particular ward bothering us but also allows you to sell what you need to sell. Does this make sense? This also not only helps the buyer but the seller as well as there will be no "penalty" tax on non ward specific items.

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(Kouru)
An intriguing idea. This could certainly work out fairly well if implemented. Many players do not like the hassle of placing items like Cotton Bolls up on their retainer cuz of the time it takes to do so, but vendoring doesn't yield much gil. Therefore, people who're lazy can Junk Shop it and other players can bounce on that opportunity to buy cheap products. (And thus the products stay in the market and are not lost, thus, providing more materials for armor and weapons).

From a technical aspect, it would be easy to program and easy to set prices. The only thing you would have to be aware of is the impact it would have on the currently existing market.

Some people would choose to lower their prices to lower than that of the Junk Shop in order to compete. And might eventually eliminate the need for a market altogether for certain items.


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(me)
Thanks for reading and giving your thoughts Kouru ^^.

I can certainly see it impacting on the market but I thought it might have a more stabilising effect and give players a benchmark to base their selling price on. (It's all over the place at the moment).

If it were implemented what I think we would see is the wards being mainly cleared of low lvl, easily available items (such as cotton bolls) which would go to the Junk Shop as I would see competition being too tight to bother bazaaring it. However I would think that people would probably not Junk Shop high value items - eg HQ 3's, or otherwise high level and/or rare mats or gear.

There's other things to consider too (if the SE devs read this and even consider it ^^) - should the items on-sold to players through a Junk Shop be sold only as NQ items - thereby still enabling retainer bazaars to have the edge for buyers looking for those HQ mats to HQ synth? It would also simplify the Junk Shop sales listing (instead of having to list the HQs separately).

Another factor to consider - should items being on-sold have a due-by date? For example they stay in the sell list for 1 Eorzean moon and if not sold are wiped from the list?

Alternatively, to add to the atmosphere of the Junk Shop, it a holding of a particular item was getting too large - the NPC could hold a fire sale ^^.

...but maybe I making things too complicated with these extra suggestions and maybe we should just stick to the original idea.... K.I.S.S. and all ^^

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(Kouru)
Well, Kahri, let's examine for a moment your problem.

"I thought it might have a more stabilising effect and give players a benchmark to base their selling price on."

You would like for items to have a general definition of how much they are worth.

Some simple solutions (that would also be cost effective and solve your problem) would be to add a feature that would give you a static default price when you go to place an item up on bazaar... or (by recording sales prices) dynamically display an average market price.

The 2nd display idea, however, makes it so RMT can inflate prices by selling to each other for ridiculously high prices which would raise the average price.

Eventually it would be FFXI all over again. :(

Back to your idea about the junk shop though, I like it. I do. I don't know the effect it would have if implemented.

I would suggest some limitations, for instance... only materials could be sold to the junk shop.

This way, the market is still heavily used for gear, crystals, and difficult to find materials... while it is easy to find base components by checking the clothcrafter junk shop for cotton bolls and the like.

I would be quite happy if SE looked this idea and these comments over and provide feedback whether it would work or not. I think it's a valid idea.


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(Raagnar)
this sounds a lot like FFXI guild stores. you can only sell them mats related to the guild and their inventory was based on what players sold them. obviously your idea is a bit more fleshed out but they have done something similar in the past, so this is possible.

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(me)
It's highly likely that's were it springs from as I was a ffxi player for a few years and was really into the crafting scene.
Oh, I remember it now, the late-night craft-jamming and coffee sessions, the long-winded debates of synthesis direction theory, the flaunting of HQ equipment synthesised .... good times.


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(Frisque)
@ Kahri: I like your idea :) Although it may just be simpler to 1) add more NPC's selling the odd bits and 2) lower the existing prices from NPC's. (2K GFAlpha, I'm ok with. But 6400 cotton cloth? really, square?)

@ Geesus: One of the ideas behind the wards was to force players to make a choice: Do I try to have my ***** sell my weapon today, or my wing glue?

That's what it's about....Choice and Strategy. Putting mechanics into play that take away the "penalty" (tax) eliminate the duty of players to make a choice. Sure, you can go buy retainers to fill every single ward, but that would be your decision to pay for the ability to have a representative in each ward (theoretically.... not really the same during the F2P).

If they do it that way (automatically shuffling items in your retainer's bazaar to the "correct" ward) they may as well just take out the tax and give us all unlimited free retainers. But the way things are going, something like this will probably be around the corner.
#4 Dec 22 2010 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
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There are plenty of ways to improve a square wheel. A round one will still be better.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with your suggestions, -in addition to an AH-, they're good suggestions.

But they don't really address the main problem: It simply takes too long to:

- Figure out how much an item you've never seen should be sold for without "just guessing at it", and
- Find an item you want to purchase that you've never seen before, and know whether the price is a good one.

If you can address the ability to do either of these functions (Locating the item, knowing what the item is worth, and the actual act of buying or listing it for sale) in under 90 seconds without an AH, I'd be interested in your follow up.
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#5 Dec 22 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Default
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justpassingthrough1 wrote:
I would see this as solving two problems with the existing system:

- Removes crap/junk stuff from retainer bazaars so that adventurers focus on doing their own specialist sales instead of just putting up any old thing that drops.

- Removes the problem of time waste for adventurers who don't want to spend an hour searching for a relatively low value item.


Wow, you definitely put some thought into this. I applaud that. Most people are simply sheep that just blindly follow along to either the "AH camp" or the "market ward camp". Solid job thinking outside the box.

There is, however, one thing which I believe you have overlooked. This one thing, in my own opinion, represents a fatal flaw to your plan. It is just as vital to an MMO economy to systematically remove items from circulation as it is to remove actual currency from circulation. If too much currency is in circulation, the currency is devalued and inflation occurs. In like manner, if too much of a given item is in circulation, it loses its value because it is so common. Imagine if every cotton boll that was harvested in the game remained in circulation, removed only by crafters. There would literally be billions of them in circulation, and they'd be worth absolutely nothing. By allowing players to vendor their "junk" items, the system destroys the items permanently, preserving the price point for those players who choose to sell these "junk" items as part of a niche market.

Solid thought process though. Keep up the good work. :)

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 10:38am by Elswick78
#6 Dec 22 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Though very complex in nature to do. I am all for it as npc items eclipse sold items and a lot of sellable items are entirely niche by their nature. Crab legs anyone?

Though I'd make it so you have a 'second hand market' which functions based on npced goods to it being sold back and on hand with a very high inventory capacity (say millions of items) and people can purchase any item from the retainer style item search function or a keyword search as will be later added to do so.

Then everything sells for 4-5 times its NPC value and players can buy items from stock. Said NPC should be simple merchants at every camp and entrance to city. Some issues would need to be figured out... like the use of npcs dropping off for selling their gear and this becoming a rival to the wards...
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#7 Dec 22 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'd just like to point out that any given item is worth as much as any one person is willing to pay for it. The only thing price history does is allow players to see what the previous people paid for the item, which can easily be manipulated. We don't need that in this game. It's not that hard to come up with a reasonable figure for any given item. Price history only makes it easier to manipulate the market. Personally, I'm glad SE didn't include prices in the market search.
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#8 Dec 22 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
@ Mikhalia - see my above suggestion then ^^. Frankly I see no need for an AH, other than that players who've experienced other MMOs have gotten used to using them.

One thing I was debating with the lodestone commentors is, by having a NPC sell mark with the junk shop items, whether that would be a good thing or bad thing in relation to the retainer ecomony - as you would expect players with items sold through their retainer would then try to match or beat the price of the item as sold via the Junk Shop NPC. Alternatively, if a desired/high value item is so rare that the Junk Shop NPC doesn't have it in stock, then a player could pretty much set the price wherever he/she wanted.

So, yes, this Junk Shop NPC suggestion should to a greater extent solve the 'what price should I sell at' by providing a benchmark figure from the Junk Shop NPC themselves.

As per the supplementary post above, the other considerations were:

- should items on-sold through a Junk Shop NPC be restricted to normal quality to allow retainer bazaars an edge on selling HQ items?
- as above, someone also suggested that only materials should be on-sold through the Junk Shop NPC so that retainer bazaars retain an edge in selling gear, etc.

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@ Elswick - I'd thought about this, as per the supplementary post - I'd thought maybe items on-sold through Junk Shop NPCs could be expired after, say, 1 Eorzean month.

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I'm off to bed so I'll catch up tomorrow o/ nn.
#9 Dec 22 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
Sorry - one last thing before I finally log for the day ...

Companies.

They're gonna be introduced early in 2011 apparently. Companies will be able to own their own ships and buildings, and, from what the devs imply there may be parts of the game/Eorzean story which might only be access if you are part of a company....

What effect will this have (if any) on the market system? Will these companies be able to set up their own mega-stores, or whatever?

We don't have enough detail to go on atm, but this could be another factor in how/why the market/retainer system is structured as it is.
#10 Dec 22 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Guild wars does this with their crafting materials. NPC's pay you based on demand, and then sell you based on supply (usually ends up being about 5-20% higher iirc). It saves people from having to stand around shouting that they have X leather to sell, and focus on their more important items to sell. I think it only works with things like crafting materials, and really only the common ones. Stuff that would only get vendored every couple of days would get odd prices out of this.
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#12 Dec 22 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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While the idea is a very inventive one, I have one issue with it. Why put it in the Wards? There are NPCs in each city that sell specific things from all over the world. Why not reprogram what is already there with a similar concept of buying items that match what they sell for higher then other NPCs...and of course when they have a large supply the price would start to drop. They could get a continual supply of say 10 of an item per game day to sell, then this would be added to by the players of the community. It would sort of go along with how the old guild NPCs in XI worked...or does no one else remember "camping" the flax NPC??

Oh and on a personal note. $#(^!$*&! an AH..and if SE is listening dont make the selling/buying history visable to everyone.
#13 Dec 22 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Default
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msconduct wrote:
I'll take the AH please


Solid contribution to the thread, sir. ZAM collectively thanks you...
#14 Dec 22 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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if they can implement the same Yellow Gremlin(ffxiv.yg.com) bazaar system... it would make everything better...
#15 Dec 22 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
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KujaKoF wrote:
Guild wars does this with their crafting materials. NPC's pay you based on demand, and then sell you based on supply (usually ends up being about 5-20% higher iirc). It saves people from having to stand around shouting that they have X leather to sell, and focus on their more important items to sell. I think it only works with things like crafting materials, and really only the common ones. Stuff that would only get vendored every couple of days would get odd prices out of this.



that didnt stop from people spamming WTS and WTB in trade chat... in fact large numbers of people did WTS and WTB spam in trade chat... and if you buy or sell from spamming in trade chat... you get MUCH MUCH better deals...
#16 Dec 22 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
@ Pherocious - wouldn't implementing a similar system in-game to the yg system essentially be the equivalent to an AH?

Plus, I dunno about guild wars but I have played WoW and I know that the same WTB/WTS spamming occurs constantly there. We're never gonna be able to prevent ppl from spamming WTB & WTS, but (for various reasons) it's never been that prevalent in FF MMOs in my experience - mind you it has been a few years since I played FFXI.

Regardless of whether or not ppl spam WTB & WTS (though I don't see it becoming prevalent in FFXIV) that doesn't really add to the discussion of this suggestion.

Are you saying that you like the similar system of guild wars and can see it complementing retainer bazaars in FFXIV, or that you don't want to see it in FFXIV?
#17 Dec 22 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Pherocious wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Guild wars does this with their crafting materials. NPC's pay you based on demand, and then sell you based on supply (usually ends up being about 5-20% higher iirc). It saves people from having to stand around shouting that they have X leather to sell, and focus on their more important items to sell. I think it only works with things like crafting materials, and really only the common ones. Stuff that would only get vendored every couple of days would get odd prices out of this.



that didnt stop from people spamming WTS and WTB in trade chat... in fact large numbers of people did WTS and WTB spam in trade chat... and if you buy or sell from spamming in trade chat... you get MUCH MUCH better deals...


Well yeah that is true, but I was trying to find an instance where a system like this worked at least a little bit, instead of just telling the OP it was a bad idea. I think its not a horrible idea when it comes to low end, basic stuff.

I don't think too many guild wars people we're sweating the WTB for scraps of cloth/metals/wood planks or that basic stuff people get all the time. when it came to stuff like ectos, or jade/amber and things of that nature, I'd have shouted in general too. Especially since people already had to do this for weapons. Another reason it possibly worked was how trivial crafting was in that game, so it wasn't a huge deal if I wasn't quite getting the best deal.
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#18 Dec 22 2010 at 4:38 PM Rating: Default
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There is no need for a junk shop or any sort of ancillary PC-to-NPC marketplace if we just had an AH. The items we label "junk" are masses of simple crafting materials that fill up our inventories while grinding. We often DON'T sell them under the retainer market system because of limited bazaar space vs. item value, and we become irritated when we see them cluttering the market--plus, they are often in improper wards.

If we just had an AH, the lowbies, gleaners and penny-pinchers could stuff all the "junk" into the AH for their petty 3000g paycheck. The materials are sorted, easy to find, and localized in a single interface from which anyone can buy and sell. The materials make their way into the hands of crafters all the same.

Convince me that an AH does not solve the very problem the OP has raised, and more.

If we are so ******* eager to replace an AH, we have to innovate upon the AH system, not merely sidestep it. Retainers with their menu jungles and this junk shop **** is silly; it's clear that many people in favor of a non-AH system only lean that way solely for the sake of being different. Unique is not necessarily useful, and all that.
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#19 Dec 22 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
@ Almalexia - for that matter useful doesn't necessarily fit the game's world rules.

I'm not saying I don't need an AH because I want to for "the sake of being different" as you suggest. I don't need an AH because I ... wait for it .... don't need an AH!!

If the devs have made a line in the sand and said 'no AHs exist in Eorzea' - you know what, I can deal, because every other player in Eorzea has to play within the same boundary.

..........

Why is it we've reverted to discussing AH's?

As I stated at the outset - I'm not interested. There's plenty of other existing threads for AH-centric ppl to natter on regarding their AH desires. This thread is not to debate AHs - it's to debate whether the existing retainer system would be complemented by a Junk Shop NPC system as per the original post. Please stick to the topic and discuss the Junk Shop idea, not your continuing desire for an AH.
#20 Dec 22 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
Almalexia wrote:
There is no need for a junk shop or any sort of ancillary PC-to-NPC marketplace if we just had an AH.


So, since we don't have an AH ... is there then a need for a Junk Shop - or - as you put it - a PC-to-NPC marketplace.

Or perhaps the Junk Shop idea would be better described as: a PC to PC marketplace with a NPC intermediary/broker.
#21 Dec 22 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
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justpassingthrough1 wrote:
Why is it we've reverted to discussing AH's?

As I stated at the outset - I'm not interested. There's plenty of other existing threads for AH-centric ppl to natter on regarding their AH desires. This thread is not to debate AHs - it's to debate whether the existing retainer system would be complemented by a Junk Shop NPC system as per the original post. Please stick to the topic and discuss the Junk Shop idea, not your continuing desire for an AH.


Then to be blunt, its not a good idea. It would only be used for garbage items that players would likely vendor anyways. This system lets the game software set prices, which will not be very accurate.

Take for example a rarely sold item. Nothing special, just harder to make/find, and doesn't get bought/sold very often. There aren't any in the junk shop right now. The computer can either

1) pay the player alot of money for it, and it will surely not every be bought, until tons more people have sold theirs, but thats slow). This works well only if the item is actually rare and valuable.

2) Not offer the player enough money for it, less than they could get from standing and shouting about it. At which point nobody would bother to vendor their item.



And, if you don't like theorycrafting and hypothticals, I would say that it takes the ability to control price completely out of the players hand. It would no longer be a "player driven economy".
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#22 Dec 22 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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You misunderstand. I am pointing out how you, who tries to accommodate a no-AH system, as well as the devs, who rejected an AH at the outset and continue to avoid it, are dancing around the issue. Your suggestion in the OP addresses one of the myriad problems in FFXIV that have come from a lack of an AH.

I repeat: If we are so ******* eager to replace an AH, we have to innovate upon the AH system, not merely sidestep it.

Furthermore, there is no reason to throw up our hands and say an AH is never going to happen. If you, too, would rather have an AH you can and should demand it from SE. It's not beyond their power to add one.
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#23 Dec 22 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good
KujaKoF wrote:

... to be blunt, its not a good idea. It would only be used for garbage items that players would likely vendor anyways. This system lets the game software set prices, which will not be very accurate.

Take for example a rarely sold item. Nothing special, just harder to make/find, and doesn't get bought/sold very often. There aren't any in the junk shop right now. The computer can either

1) pay the player alot of money for it, and it will surely not every be bought, until tons more people have sold theirs, but thats slow). This works well only if the item is actually rare and valuable.

2) Not offer the player enough money for it, less than they could get from standing and shouting about it. At which point nobody would bother to vendor their item.



And, if you don't like theorycrafting and hypothticals, I would say that it takes the ability to control price completely out of the players hand. It would no longer be a "player driven economy".


Thank you for a well considered, on topic response ^^.

Re: 1) - I'm not sure I follow. I think you're suggesting that the Junk Shop offer to buy at a price reached at depending on the rarity of the item. If that's what you're suggesting, I don't see that happening with the Junk Shop. Rather I see the Junk Shop offering a price (as per regular NPC vendors) based on item level, or perhaps mats required to make it. I also don't see players tending to vendor their rare and/or valuable items. I would think if players were to look at the listing of what was available through the Junk Shop NPC first, see that their item was not available, then they might decide to use their retainer bazaar instead - since they effectively have a monopoly item.

Re: 2) Or at least, the player will decide not to vendor that item and will instead retainer bazaar it.

A NPC Junk Shop wouldn't be intended to take over the role of retainers completely, I would see it more as offering a focal point for low lvl, regularly available ('junk' so to speak) items, so that retainer bazaars could specialise in rarer and/or higher lvl, and/or higher quality items.

I'm interested in your 'taking the ability to control price completely out of the player's hand' comment.

There seem to be two main camps here - those that want a completely player driven economy, and those that find such an economy frustrating as they don't know what to set their prices at. I'm not really in either camp completely, kind of have one foot in each.

On the one hand a completely player driven economy would rock (yes, rock, in a "go man, yea, woo-hoo!!, hiiiiigh way to **** da dum dum hiiiiigh way to he-ell" kind of way 8P) ... providing the player numbers were sufficient and ranged/renewed regularly enough to keep it a vibrant economy. On the other hand I had thought the devs had in mind a game structure which would equally benefit the casual player as much as the devotee.

I don't see a purely player driven economy being user friendly for casual players. Nor, at present, do I see sufficient renewal (ie constant newbies for low lvl item demand) to support a wholly player driven ecomony. Additionally, while I like being able to wear whatever gear rank I want, I think this gear structure will also reduce 'renewal' demand as I would think players who had achieved higher ranks would simply keep wearing their existing gear if they decided to skill up on a lower rank class (unless they want to be an uber low-ber 8P). So, to a significant extent I don't see a wholly player driven economy in Eorzea as remaining vibrant. I think it will stagnate sooner rather than later.

A NPC intermediary - such as the Junk Shop idea would help with this 'renewal' problem and also assist the more casual player who doesn't have the time or energy to keep themselves informed on the current market situation.

As was commented on by one of the lodestone participants - a player would be forced to make a choice between (a) quick and low profit transaction through the Junk Shop NPC, or (b) a longer but higher profit margin retainer bazaar selling option. At least with a Junk Shop NPC the casual (or just plain impatient) player would have the option, and any items that are vendored to a Junk Shop NPC aren't just 'lost' from the market as they are with regular vendors.
#24 Dec 22 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
@ Myou - that was just an option to put forward. There are pros & cons - and as you say there are already NPC stall areas in each city which could be adjusted (or more stalls added) to cater for such an idea.

Frankly I'd really like to see the outlying towns and refugee camps be given a greater role and since they seem to be sparsely located over the varying areas, if the such an idea as the NPC Junk Shop were to be implemented based on region, there's no reason they can't be based in those outlying towns and refugee camps ^^.

Either of the three options (in player market ward, in existing wards, in outlying townships) could be used.

PS - I well remember camping the Selbina shop for wool ^^.
#25 Dec 22 2010 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
@ Almalexia

Perhaps I misunderstand your point.

Or perhaps you miss my point.

Perhaps it's both. ^^

Innovation upon an AH system, is still an AH system.

I repeat this is a thread discussing an option for Eorzea where there is no NPC based AH. If you want to discuss your desire for an AH there are other threads running with that topic for you to express your desire within.

Frankly it would be really helpful to the AH vs no-AH debate if the devs could release an 'ask the devs' topic on the proposed companies so we could get a more in-depth understanding of how companies would fit in with the existing Eorzean structure.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 7:03pm by justpassingthrough1
#26 Dec 22 2010 at 6:29 PM Rating: Default
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justpassingthrough1 wrote:
Innovation upon an AH system, is still an AH system.

A more fuel-efficient car is still a car.

Retainers are not the next big thing. The more stuff SE has to add to accommodate retainers, the clumsier they appear. One should not ask "since we don't have an AH, how can we make the current system less unpleasant?" One should explore the best possible option, and so far the AH is just that. An AH is powerful enough to sort hundreds of items and handle transactions of thousands of players per server, but elegant enough to fit in one interface. An AH will, at every moment in the retainers' development, be more convenient than retainers:

We can now search for goods in wards, but we can't search by keyword.
We will soon be able to search by keyword, but we will have to go into the ward to buy the item.
If the day comes when we can buy items straight out of the search interface, I wonder why--if we are ultimately moving toward this feature--we didn't begin with an AH in the first place.
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#27 Dec 22 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
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justpassingthrough1 wrote:


Thank you for a well considered, on topic response ^^.

Re: 1) - I'm not sure I follow. I think you're suggesting that the Junk Shop offer to buy at a price reached at depending on the rarity of the item. If that's what you're suggesting, I don't see that happening with the Junk Shop. Rather I see the Junk Shop offering a price (as per regular NPC vendors) based on item level, or perhaps mats required to make it. I also don't see players tending to vendor their rare and/or valuable items. I would think if players were to look at the listing of what was available through the Junk Shop NPC first, see that their item was not available, then they might decide to use their retainer bazaar instead - since they effectively have a monopoly item.


I guess I misunderstood, and I was assuming you wanted more items going through this system, rather than just NPC vendor-friendly items. I was thinking that you wanted the junk shop to be buying items based on their rarity to the junk shop. Meaning, if people weren't selling often, the junk shop would assume it was valuable, and pay more for it. If its just going off standard vendor buy price, this scenario would never happen, however it does put a ceiling on what gets sold to the junk shop.

Quote:
Re: 2) Or at least, the player will decide not to vendor that item and will instead retainer bazaar it.

A NPC Junk Shop wouldn't be intended to take over the role of retainers completely, I would see it more as offering a focal point for low lvl, regularly available ('junk' so to speak) items, so that retainer bazaars could specialise in rarer and/or higher lvl, and/or higher quality items.

I'm interested in your 'taking the ability to control price completely out of the player's hand' comment.


Again, I'd misunderstood your point.

Quote:
There seem to be two main camps here - those that want a completely player driven economy, and those that find such an economy frustrating as they don't know what to set their prices at. I'm not really in either camp completely, kind of have one foot in each.


One thing I'll put here just cause, I've never understood the distinction of "player driven economy" being present in this game, over every other MMO. I don't see how this one is any different. Players set prices, they always have, even with that "evil" FFXI AH, where people had the illusion that they wern't setting their own prices.

Therefore, I don't see those two camps at all. Some people want their prices to be independent of the market, and support a system that benefits them (retainers do this), and other people want to make all their sales/purchases at the market rate, which is what the price is when all items for sale are pooled (centralized AH such as wow, FFXI, regardless of the actual method of payment, or simply a global retainer search with price and the instant ability to pay/receive items).

Enough economic theories have been posted on this site that I don't think anyone's going to be converting anybody. If someone feel that retainers are best for their business, I can't change their minds.

Quote:
On the one hand a completely player driven economy would rock (yes, rock, in a "go man, yea, woo-hoo!!, hiiiiigh way to **** da dum dum hiiiiigh way to he-ell" kind of way 8P) ... providing the player numbers were sufficient and ranged/renewed regularly enough to keep it a vibrant economy. On the other hand I had thought the devs had in mind a game structure which would equally benefit the casual player as much as the devotee.

I don't see a purely player driven economy being user friendly for casual players. Nor, at present, do I see sufficient renewal (ie constant newbies for low lvl item demand) to support a wholly player driven ecomony. Additionally, while I like being able to wear whatever gear rank I want, I think this gear structure will also reduce 'renewal' demand as I would think players who had achieved higher ranks would simply keep wearing their existing gear if they decided to skill up on a lower rank class (unless they want to be an uber low-ber 8P). So, to a significant extent I don't see a wholly player driven economy in Eorzea as remaining vibrant. I think it will stagnate sooner rather than later.

A NPC intermediary - such as the Junk Shop idea would help with this 'renewal' problem and also assist the more casual player who doesn't have the time or energy to keep themselves informed on the current market situation.

As was commented on by one of the lodestone participants - a player would be forced to make a choice between (a) quick and low profit transaction through the Junk Shop NPC, or (b) a longer but higher profit margin retainer bazaar selling option. At least with a Junk Shop NPC the casual (or just plain impatient) player would have the option, and any items that are vendored to a Junk Shop NPC aren't just 'lost' from the market as they are with regular vendors.


There is one idea here that I really like the sound of, and that is the idea of the junk shop purchasing gear that would not be repaired, and allowing it to be sold to new players. However, I'm sure crafters will complain at that idea, even though I'm sure level 50 leathercrafters arent pumping out sheepskin harnesses regularly.

Edited, Dec 22nd 2010 10:18pm by KujaKoF
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#28 Dec 22 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Good
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justpassingthrough1 wrote:
a PC to PC marketplace with a NPC intermediary/broker.
Sounds kinda like EVE's system. If you wanted you could junk ores and ship attachments to the NPC in the station, but rather than just delete the item from the game, instead it's automatically selling the item to the lowest possible bidder among a group of people who have set up buys for large quantities of a particular item. So basically PersonA wants to buy Junk Item +3 for 1,000 gil a piece, so he sets up a buy with the NPC. Then when PersonB comes along with a pocket full of Junk Item +3s that he wants to just quickly dump without waiting for it to sell on a market, and sells it to the NPC for the price of 1,000 gil each minus some small fee. PersonA who is looking for a lot of these junk items gets a bunch at the price he wants without shuffling through the market and PersonB gets to get rid of some junk he doesn't want and get paid fair market prices instantly.
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#29 Dec 23 2010 at 1:45 AM Rating: Default
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justpassingthrough1 wrote:
@ Pherocious - wouldn't implementing a similar system in-game to the yg system essentially be the equivalent to an AH?


Yes it would...

the fact is... if we're looking for another system that can work with the retainer ward system... the more we make it similar to an AH system... the better...

and the yg system isnt exactly like an AH... its more like... you have best buy, pc richard, and a cheap electronic store... we as the customers, instead of visiting each store, will go on the web to a website that lists and compares each individual items prices... then when we make up our mind and just go straight to that one store...

ya thats the yg system...

an AH would be like ebay... no walking to the store... sh*t comes in the mail... and i can sit at home and eat my chocolate chip kookiez...

well... basically... there are 2 roads... both leads to an awesome ending...
-one of the road is really really short and quick... that road is called the AH
-the other road is really really long and it twirls and it zig zags and it spins in circles... that road is called the alternative solution to an AH...

rofl... hehehe...




i strongly stand by what i initially said... the YG system works GREAT with the retainer wards... implement that into the game and it will be a WIN!!!

Edited, Dec 23rd 2010 2:55am by Pherocious
#30 Dec 23 2010 at 2:53 AM Rating: Good
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What if the economy becomes tied to the concept of a Company?

I like the pawn shop idea.

I'm actually (oddly) hoping that Companies eat up lots of resources and spit out something worthwhile for the effort (cynical sidebar: rather than just eat time/money and crap all over me, like lots of SE content).

I'm hoping that the "LS Exchanges" several of us are enjoying actually gets worked into this idea. The only explanation of a Company they've given (that I've seen) officially is "player-run guild."

Well, Guilds issue "leves" and supply items and gil as rewards. It would be real cool to set Company objectives and have every one pitch in to feed their Company and better the entire community.

I don't know where I'm going with this - it's on the tip of my brain's tongue - but I am somewhat hoping that Companies have like an exchange or internal "Auction House" model - something that RMT can't get into unless they infiltrate the Company or start their own Companies (which ... once identified will collapse, hopefully).

I'd like it to branch out into Company to Company exchanges (fees of course).

I dunno. What do you guys think of this?

Oh and the Pawn Shop reminded me because I was also thinking it would be nice if I could go to my Company HQ and sell junk to an NPC and others could come along and buy it at a reasonable rate. I'd love to just give it to them for free - but unless they add some kind of "Posting House" so I can look up what people want, I can't keep track of everyone's needs unless they're online to say "DONT NPC THAT. I NEED IT."

Sorry, these were some random thoughts on how to improve the community as well as the economy and make a lot more people happy.

Edited, Dec 23rd 2010 3:54am by Kirutaru
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#31 Dec 23 2010 at 4:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I love this idea and a similar was actually implemented on other JMMORPG like Uncharted Water (from KOEI),
In Uncharted Water, it is a system that use NPC shop as media, and player provides the stock.
Each city have a shop that cover certain area of items,
and the player's supply and demand would affect the NPC's buying/selling price.

Your idea reminded me this and it would be a super great addition to this game.
And SE can easily borrow this idea as well.
As mention, this could also conjunct with Company system.

Edited, Dec 23rd 2010 2:21am by timmyofalex
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