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Amanji and Sons opened an entire mine for...Follow

#1 Dec 24 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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...for what exactly? It just annoys me a little to see these beautiful places that I want to explore have been crafted for pretty much nothing but guildleves. Every map in this game was created with the sole purpose of facilitating guildleves...what about those of us that dislike leves? At the very least a mine should have mining points, correct me if I'm wrong but I've ventured around Nanawa mines a little and all I see are people doing leves (or grinding Coblyns but besides the point), there aren't even mining nodes, I don't think this mine leads anywhere, there is one entrance and one exit. It is the same for pretty much all underground zones you find in each region. I hope this isn't all they had planned for these maps - I thought leves were supposed to be for the casual crowd...well what the heck is the hardcore crowd gonna do when this entire game is based off of leves. Sometimes I really enjoy them, and there's a lot of room for improvement and its not like what we see is what we get but if this was your revolutionary idea SE, you better start thinking up some more. I hope that the new dev team is really a new dev team and not a PR move and I hope they have better ideas for the game moving forward. Now I played the role of the hypocrite but **** I hate to see so much potential there and all of it only used up in leves...***** leves. Give us areas inside areas to explore with landmarks, with quests that take us there or random people with random quests or something other than ******* leves.
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#2 Dec 24 2010 at 1:45 AM Rating: Decent
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i personally was hoping for camps and really small villages here and there, but as far as i know the starter zones each have one "camp" only, and for not being an open world game, the zones are just massive amounts of landscaping.... and thats it.
i understand the more you add the more optimization is needed because of memory and downloading and all that, but perhaps that should have been thought about when the question "how much content should we aim to add at release?" was asked.
i personally am enjoying the game alot now but i got sick of thanalan right after walking past black brush.
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#3 Dec 24 2010 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
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yea, at the very least some villages....if this is due to limitation I wish they'd have given us smaller zones, the load times are much faster in this game than they were in FFXI so I wouldn't have minded a little more variety for a little more loading.
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#4 Dec 24 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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The vast majority of content in an MMORPG is not available within 6 months of released.
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#5 Dec 24 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, sounds like you've never played an MMORPG at the vanilla phase before.
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#6 Dec 24 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Were supposed to be getting the addition of companies soon so maybe company building will be placed out in this vast empty space. That would be pretty awesome in my opinion.
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#7 Dec 24 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Shredmastah wrote:
Were supposed to be getting the addition of companies soon so maybe company building will be placed out in this vast empty space. That would be pretty awesome in my opinion.


hahah wishful thinking but i love your idea, that would be so awesome if it were to happen but so doubtful...although who knows - honestly if that is the case SE will win back so many subs especially if the content is really involved.
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#8 Dec 24 2010 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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jwhite1083 wrote:
The vast majority of content in an MMORPG is not available within 6 months of released.


Get real man, this game lost almost 3/4th its subs during its free trial because of lack of content amongst other things. I've played MMOs at release before and they had more content than FFXIV's leves. Anyway I was just frustrated last night because I wanna see this game succeed big time and I think it will, I'm just losing patience here - I can't wait 'til the next content update, that is looking pretty awesome.
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#9 Dec 24 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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The mine has an elevator shaft which doesn't work yet. Then there is a whole area beneath that. Same for copperbell mines. I think next patch might include the beastmen camps and such. This would be in line with FFXI, but for those of you scream for content.

Did you even kill all the NMs?
Finish the main quests?
Finish the factions line?
Hit rank 50 in any class?

There may be little direction or reward for some of it, but that doesn't change the fact content exists. Harping on about this and that when you probably have less then a month before a lot more comes out is not really productive.
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#10 Dec 24 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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On the topic of nanawa mines there really should be some mining points in there as it is part of the lvl 20 mining quest, and cool if they would only show up if you had done the quest but yes I was disapointed when I got in there and nothing...

My recent thoughts on content though are a little different. In XI I was like 'oh yeah if I dont want to level I can go crafting or something... theres so much to do.' well we have crafting in XIV and its quite good and easier to get into. now that crafts are main jobs are they not 'something else to do'? same goes for the gathering classes. I remember making millions of gil mining in Ifrits cauldron finding the odd piece of orichalcum ore now and again. No offense to those who have taken these jobs as mains but to me they are content and something else to do. Apart from a few noob quests for my star pendant there isnt much more I would expect at this stage. Yes they released the game too early, we all know that, but lets move on.

I'm still liking this game more than almost all other MMOs at this stage.
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#11 Dec 24 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Metin wrote:
On the topic of nanawa mines there really should be some mining points in there as it is part of the lvl 20 mining quest, and cool if they would only show up if you had done the quest but yes I was disapointed when I got in there and nothing...

My recent thoughts on content though are a little different. In XI I was like 'oh yeah if I dont want to level I can go crafting or something... theres so much to do.' well we have crafting in XIV and its quite good and easier to get into. now that crafts are main jobs are they not 'something else to do'? same goes for the gathering classes. I remember making millions of gil mining in Ifrits cauldron finding the odd piece of orichalcum ore now and again. No offense to those who have taken these jobs as mains but to me they are content and something else to do. Apart from a few noob quests for my star pendant there isnt much more I would expect at this stage. Yes they released the game too early, we all know that, but lets move on.

I'm still liking this game more than almost all other MMOs at this stage.



There will probably be grade 6-7 mining points in there, but they will be at the bottom of the shaft probably. Many areas have no points at all, and most of those are rank 50 zones anyways. Just as fisher has nodes to rank 11, they are filled with placeholder fish.

Also ifrit's was part of the Zilart expansion and there was no rare ore like that in vanilla XI. Same goes for choco quest and airships. They were in game, but it wasn't until Jeuno and Zilart that those mechanics were added.
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#12 Dec 24 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
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AceAmallie wrote:
The mine has an elevator shaft which doesn't work yet. Then there is a whole area beneath that. Same for copperbell mines. I think next patch might include the beastmen camps and such. This would be in line with FFXI, but for those of you scream for content.

Did you even kill all the NMs?
Finish the main quests?
Finish the factions line?
Hit rank 50 in any class?

There may be little direction or reward for some of it, but that doesn't change the fact content exists. Harping on about this and that when you probably have less then a month before a lot more comes out is not really productive.


You're argument only really holds weight if there aren't significant blocks to the content you mentioned.

Killing NMs means you should be 40+ I guess, which means you have to grind tons of boring levels
Finishing main quests, which are 30-40 minutes of cutscenes and trivial encounters every 5-10 levels of boring grinding.
Faction lines require tons of faction points, which are gained from grinding boring guild leves.
rank 50, obviously comes after grinding boring levels..

you would have made a point had you mentioned plenty of things to do that were available to the bulk of the playing population, but in the time it takes someone to be able to do anything on your list, I could have attained a commerical pilots license.
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#13 Dec 24 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
AceAmallie wrote:
The mine has an elevator shaft which doesn't work yet. Then there is a whole area beneath that. Same for copperbell mines. I think next patch might include the beastmen camps and such. This would be in line with FFXI, but for those of you scream for content.

Did you even kill all the NMs?
Finish the main quests?
Finish the factions line?
Hit rank 50 in any class?

There may be little direction or reward for some of it, but that doesn't change the fact content exists. Harping on about this and that when you probably have less then a month before a lot more comes out is not really productive.


You're argument only really holds weight if there aren't significant blocks to the content you mentioned.

Killing NMs means you should be 40+ I guess, which means you have to grind tons of boring levels
Finishing main quests, which are 30-40 minutes of cutscenes and trivial encounters every 5-10 levels of boring grinding.
Faction lines require tons of faction points, which are gained from grinding boring guild leves.
rank 50, obviously comes after grinding boring levels..

you would have made a point had you mentioned plenty of things to do that were available to the bulk of the playing population, but in the time it takes someone to be able to do anything on your list, I could have attained a commerical pilots license.


I believe the argument was for content, no? Ace listed several things to work towards, that is content. If you personally don't enjoy the storyline, guildleves, NMs, behests, and everything else currently available (most of which anyone can do), that's your personal opinion, but I don't believe that can be used as an overall content argument.

Yeah, some of these things take time, but it is an MMO. Try and make it as "casual" as possible, the point is to put in the time and be rewarded. It also helps to be in a LS and doing leves/behest in parties...at least, I still enjoy playing the game 1-2 hours a day (sometimes more on the weekend), and I've been getting into the "slump" ranks for a little while now. I also hate grinding :)

Edit: I do hope that these areas (Mines, Outlying Cities, etc) do see more content in the future. It seems like SE put in the foundation, now it's just a matter of when to build.

Edited, Dec 24th 2010 11:52am by Silvano13
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#14 Dec 24 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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I pretty much agree with everything Ace has said.

FFXI had a lot of content added with expansions, there wasnt much to do in most areas before Rise of the Zilart. I think it's unrealistic to ask SE, at this point in time, to have everything added, patched and figured out tomorrow.

Like someone else mentioned on the board, it takes time to implement new features to an MMO that has already been released. One of my friends was writing Lore for Chronicles of Spellborn and was also a programmer. He said it's one **** of a job to add anything to an existing MMO without even considering the odd bugs that pop up once you rewrite some of the code. Things stop to work entirely sometimes without the developers even interfering with the existing content up to that point.

I have no idea when they added crafting to FFXI, but that would be interesting to find out when and how it was added. How many ranks there were from the launch in Japan, what content there actually was. Compare that with the launch of FFXIV and you might be surprised what content there is right now in comparison to the first year of FFXI.

I totally agree FFXIV was released too soon and that FFXIV looks fantastic in terms of character models and such. I bet I will be dissappointed with copypasting terrain if I was playing this game as well, but there might be something in store to fill that space up with new content and modes.

I think the main problem with FFXIV is that they focused too much on graphics, like SE has a habit to do with their games, and didnt spend as much time adding and thinking about content in the first years of development (Im looking at you FFXIII >:s ). Imo FFXIV is the best looking MMO to date, it just lacks serious content, that other MMO's released in the last few years did have from the start.

The only thing we can do is wait and see what happens I guess, no matter how frustrating it is. Im sure SE will come up with great content in the coming year, just dont expect the Videogame God to interfere anytime soon with SE and create a marvelously perfect MMORPG instantly from what FFXIV has to offer right now.
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#15 Dec 24 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
Every map in this game was created with the sole purpose of facilitating guildleves...what about those of us that dislike leves?

This part bothers me greatly, as well. Are all areas going to consist of camps and their aetherial gates to simply facilitate more leves? I really don't give a rat's *** about leves if we get more FFXI style content where the zones had life to them. Right now all we have are neatly organized playgrounds for players of all levels. It's like the Matrix where the powers at be have created the perfect environment to progress as adventurers and nobody realizes it's all fake.


Edited, Dec 24th 2010 12:05pm by Omena
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#16 Dec 24 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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2 consistent points in this thread irritate me to no end.

1. Anyone who disagrees with the OP about the mines having mining points. It is absolutely ridiculous that they don't. And dreaming up excuses for the dev teams oversight (ie: oh, someday it will be multiple levels and there will be higher grade points in there) hold absolutely no water. If it was meant to be a level 10 gathering area it wouldn't be a level 30 leve area. It was a simple matter of being over looked or more likely another half ***, half implemented, half baked idea that was 'working as intended' at launch.

2. The comparisons to FFXI. Is it unreasonable to expect this game to have the content XI does right now? Yes. Is it unreasonable to expect it to have an overload of thing to do on your way to level 50? No. While I realize that LOTRO is more of a WoW clone it was FULL of people, places, quests, etc. It had a functional mail system and AH. I;m not advertising for LOTRO, if I was a fanboy I'd be there, not here anxiously awaiting each additional update.

The OP is right in this case. It was a **** poor decision to not have mining points in the mines. And everyone jumping on the band wagon about how much of a piece of crap XI was at launch needs to remember that A. XI launched nearly 10 years ago and B. It was SE's first big MMO. Peoples expectation raise with each succeeding product, games being no exception. Amateur hour is over.

-Teeg
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#17 Dec 24 2010 at 11:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Teegotaru wrote:
2 consistent points in this thread irritate me to no end.

1. Anyone who disagrees with the OP about the mines having mining points. It is absolutely ridiculous that they don't. And dreaming up excuses for the dev teams oversight (ie: oh, someday it will be multiple levels and there will be higher grade points in there) hold absolutely no water. If it was meant to be a level 10 gathering area it wouldn't be a level 30 leve area. It was a simple matter of being over looked or more likely another half ***, half implemented, half baked idea that was 'working as intended' at launch.

2. The comparisons to FFXI. Is it unreasonable to expect this game to have the content XI does right now? Yes. Is it unreasonable to expect it to have an overload of thing to do on your way to level 50? No. While I realize that LOTRO is more of a WoW clone it was FULL of people, places, quests, etc. It had a functional mail system and AH. I;m not advertising for LOTRO, if I was a fanboy I'd be there, not here anxiously awaiting each additional update.

The OP is right in this case. It was a **** poor decision to not have mining points in the mines. And everyone jumping on the band wagon about how much of a piece of crap XI was at launch needs to remember that A. XI launched nearly 10 years ago and B. It was SE's first big MMO. Peoples expectation raise with each succeeding product, games being no exception. Amateur hour is over.

-Teeg


SPOILER WARNING for MINER CLASS QUEST!

If you bother to do the actual quest the mines are public, but have been picked so clean that until you are permitted by Amanji and Sons you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MINE Nanawa and Copperbell Mines for that very reason. The shaft which is the miner's paradise are deeper underground and you don't have access to the elevators yet. With the coming class quests in the next patch I can almost assure you that some of these issues will be dealt with.

Secondly, I'd like to point out many spots which do NOT have mining points are all 40-50 range. The fact placeholders exist for now in fishing is proof of it. Since we have recipes and notes for legendary fish which are not implemented yet. Like the Takeo.

All MMOs take time to grow.
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#18 Dec 24 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
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Teegotaru wrote:
2 consistent points in this thread irritate me to no end.

1. Anyone who disagrees with the OP about the mines having mining points. It is absolutely ridiculous that they don't. And dreaming up excuses for the dev teams oversight (ie: oh, someday it will be multiple levels and there will be higher grade points in there) hold absolutely no water. If it was meant to be a level 10 gathering area it wouldn't be a level 30 leve area. It was a simple matter of being over looked or more likely another half ***, half implemented, half baked idea that was 'working as intended' at launch.

2. The comparisons to FFXI. Is it unreasonable to expect this game to have the content XI does right now? Yes. Is it unreasonable to expect it to have an overload of thing to do on your way to level 50? No. While I realize that LOTRO is more of a WoW clone it was FULL of people, places, quests, etc. It had a functional mail system and AH. I;m not advertising for LOTRO, if I was a fanboy I'd be there, not here anxiously awaiting each additional update.

The OP is right in this case. It was a **** poor decision to not have mining points in the mines. And everyone jumping on the band wagon about how much of a piece of crap XI was at launch needs to remember that A. XI launched nearly 10 years ago and B. It was SE's first big MMO. Peoples expectation raise with each succeeding product, games being no exception. Amateur hour is over.

-Teeg
Which is exactly why I agree with both the OP and Ace :p

Maybe a summarize of what I think will clear it up:

I think Leves (Fov?) are nice, but should not be the core content of FFXIV, which is what I think. Area's are too empty for my taste, there should be more difference between zones. I loved FFXI because I could Explore area's to see what monsters were there, what random npc quests or map quests there were in all zones. In fact, that's what I did during my first time playing FFXI as Whm 51 (woohoo Ulegrand Range map quest!). People didnt call me the Crazy Map Collector for nothing (^O^)/.
Npc quests with a little story and personal problems with other npcs and resolving them creates a bond with the world in an MMO, my opinion is that it is either non-existant in FFXIV or way too little. Area's that dont have any use besides grinding mobs for xp/sp is silly.

I need to be Immersed.... which I think FFXIV is lacking greatly atm.


Edited, Dec 24th 2010 7:17pm by MonarctheFirst
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#19 Dec 24 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Geotrick approves of Teegs Message.

This is a new era where MMO's can't be released half assed. Its about to be 2011. Not 2000.
Listen to Gamebreakers podcast and you will see they summarize MMO games correctly.

It's almost as if a company doesn't launch with all the content such as endgame, "content", mounts.. It is more likely to fail in todays standards.

It's like SE has been living under a rock and you have to admit that. They have had this project in creation years ago and they failed to look at anyone else MMO's to look at todays standards.

They were to egocentric and now they've been brought back to reality. Your rep won't allow you to produce half-assed games.
#20 Dec 24 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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Comparing FFXIV's content to the vanilla content of MMO's released years ago doesn't change the fact that SE isn't offering much right now. The MMO scene has evolved. Other, more recent MMO's launched with more content than this. SE realises this, I'm sure, but they probably thought that desperately fixing the interface issues was more important than desperately fixing the content issues. I personally think that was the right decision.

The bottom line is that most of FFXIV's "content" isn't content -- it's reward, for grinding levels. Pretty much, grinding levels is the "main" content, and fighting a handful of NM's is the "endgame" content, and that's it. The rest is reward CS's.
#21 Dec 24 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

SPOILER WARNING for MINER CLASS QUEST!

If you bother to do the actual quest the mines are public, but have been picked so clean that until you are permitted by Amanji and Sons you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO MINE Nanawa and Copperbell Mines for that very reason. The shaft which is the miner's paradise are deeper underground and you don't have access to the elevators yet. With the coming class quests in the next patch I can almost assure you that some of these issues will be dealt with.

Secondly, I'd like to point out many spots which do NOT have mining points are all 40-50 range. The fact placeholders exist for now in fishing is proof of it. Since we have recipes and notes for legendary fish which are not implemented yet. Like the Takeo.

All MMOs take time to grow.


This.

Jesus people, yes this game has alot to complain about but complaining about the lack of content, which is explained by doing a quest, which is done by actually doing the content availible at the minute is down right silly.
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#22 Dec 24 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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xxAnikalxx wrote:


This.

Jesus people, yes this game has alot to complain about but complaining about the lack of content, which is explained by doing a quest, which is done by actually doing the content availible at the minute is down right silly.


I agree so hard.

More is always better, but really I am tired of people who think that giving leather to an npc in sandoria is content - or beechips to an npc in windurst, or unstackable zinc ore to an npc in bastok ... THAT IS CONTENT?

but HUNDREDS of guildleves are not content?

Aur did a great post where he actually took ALL the quests currently available/doable from 1-20 in FFXI and counted them up - and guess what - FFXIV has MORE quests NOW for 1-20 than FFXI does after what, seven? eight? YEARS to develop.

Well unless you live in an alternate universe where getting a request from an npc to do something and then doing it is not a quest.

Now, I am not a terrible fan of guildleves - I've noted that before. However, that doesn't mean they are not content.

I want more content. YES. Give me MOAR.

but dammit. I am sick of the constant scree of complaints I read around here. I wish I was at home playing XIV.
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#23 Dec 24 2010 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Aur did a great post where he actually took ALL the quests currently available/doable from 1-20 in FFXI and counted them up - and guess what - FFXIV has MORE quests NOW for 1-20 than FFXI does after what, seven? eight? YEARS to develop.

The difference being that quests in FFXI often let you interact with important figures in the story who you'd later face again in different situations. It immerses you into the world. The Ranger AF quest, for instance, deals with historical events from 20 years before the game "began", and now, almost 10 years after the implementation of that quest, you get to actually travel back in time and be there when those events happened. It gave a completely different meaning to the original quest.

What are guildleves? They come with a paragraph of text that has nothing to do with anything of importance and then you go to the designated camp and kill goats. That's it.




Edited, Dec 24th 2010 3:18pm by Omena
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#24 Dec 24 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Some of the quests in XI were like that but the vast majority of them sucked. True facts.

Yes, we all loved the star onion questline.

The job unlocking quests (not available till level 30 - so I wasn't talking about those anyway) were generally pretty cool - aaaand... yeah I actually can't think of any other quests I really enjoyed for level 1-20.

Granted I didn't quest a lot (because unlike FFXIV ALL of the leveling was done through party grind and there are simply NOT MANY quests for low levels in XI) but most of the quests were pretty suck.

Yeah finding just the right unstackable smoothe stone was really fun (not)... and I miss trading cornettes and cabbages (again, not) but I can live without that in XIV.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#25 Dec 24 2010 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sure there is no CS because its repeatable, but there IS a story.

What about the Zer'maat Five for the guild leves?


Wanted: Rorogun the Tailtamer
A jolly mummer known around the realm for his traveling galago show, Rorogun the Tailtamer is loved by nobles and smallfolk alike. Newly gathered intelligence, however, suggests that the Lalafell actually is a member of the Zer'maat Five, using his pets in the smuggling and exchange of everything from forbidden artifacts and stolen relics to outlawed poisons and contraband. Azeyma's Shields has tracked Rorogun to Gridania, where he is currently conducting daily shows while practicing his foul trade. Join Isleguard W'mhelgo Hena in Tranquil Paths to ambush the mummer as he passes through the area on his way back to his campsite.

Wanted: Ser Aucheforne of the High Tide
Recently, several well-guarded plantations privately owned by Gridania's Greatloam Growery were ravaged by an infestation of slugs, resulting in the loss of nearly one half of all this season's rye crop. Normally, such a disaster would be deemed an unfortunate but unavoidable act of nature, and soon forgotten, if not for the report of an Azeyma's Shields informant that claims a known member of the Zer'maat Five--Ser Aucheforne of the High Tide--was seen purchasing nearly all of Limsa Lominsa's remaining supplies of rye flour the same day the Growery's crops were destroyed, most likely intending to sell it back to the city at an inflated price once a flour shortage was imminent. The false knight must pay for his crimes, and has already been tracked to his hideout in Cassiopeia Hollow. Join Isleguard W'mhelgo Hena in the caves immediately and assist her in his capture.

Wanted: Palemoon Parazuzu
Rumor has that well-known songstress Parazuzu, often seen performing in central Limsa Lominsa's Octant, is actually a lycanthropic asassin hired by the international crime syndicate Zer'maat Five to eliminate a high-ranking official in the Knights of the Barracuda. Azeyma's Shields' W'mhelgo Hena has been tracking Palemoon's movements for the past fortnight and believes she may have discovered a pattern. Join the Isleguard and assist her in capturing the shapeshifter before she can carry out her bloody mission.


Wanted: B'khenna the Phoenixfire
In an attempt to weaken the Zer'maat Five's grip on the realm, Azeyma's Shields has decided to assassinate the third ranking member of the Ul'dah branch of the underground organization, B'khenna the Phoenixfire. Known for her uncanny ability to survive any wound dealt her, no matter how grievous, B'khenna is a renowned gladiator, having won ten tourneys to date. She is also, however, a cold-blooded killer with strong connections to several high-standing members of Ul'dah's ruling class. Using the guise of one of the Syndicate, Isleguard W'mhelgo Hena has succeeded in luring the swordswoman out to Nophica's Wells for a private meeting. There, in that remote corner of western Thanalan, the mission is to be carried out as discreetly as possible to avoid any unwanted attention. Join the Isleguard immediately and assist her in her operation.

These are hunt and kill missions. The NMs are also missions relating to the Zer'maat Five. Now are you to say that these are just boring quests? Well maybe, but to me I've got a purpose, a cause, and detail on how to do these missions. I hope we get more like these and more CS quests too, but for now I can't even get done all the ones I do have!
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#26 Dec 24 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I could be wrong i think he may have only done zilart >.>

I need to find the original thread.

Listed under "general" 1-20 are:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/questsearch.html?terms=&mrank=&mlevel=&rarea=0&minlevel=0-20&qtype=General&qrealm=--Any--&rating=0&order=quest_name&s=s

441 quests found

of course this list includes things like a quest that you have to kill an NM in norg... lol
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#27 Dec 24 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure that comparing a cutting-edge new MMO to an almost-nine-year-old FFXI is really that helpful. I'd hope we're aiming for higher than that. MMOs are different now, and FFXIV has to compete now, not then. WoW would almost certainly have failed miserably if it had released today the way it released in 2004. Players expect more these days, and given how much more experience there is now with MMO development, that expectation doesn't seem unreasonable.

Are leves the same as quests, as content? Honestly, I don't think so. Now, I also think that a lot of "quests," especially in older MMO's, really aren't content either. "Go to the AH and buy me three seashells and I'll give you a puny worthless item in exchange, or maybe nothing at all" isn't really content any more than most leves are.

But, as they stand now, almost all leves are "quests" only by the thinnest margin, if at all. Leves are clearly intended to be primarily a leveling mechanism, an extra layer put on top of grinding mobs for EXP. They don't really pretend to have a story, or to fit into the greater universe of the game, and are basically just a focus for grinding. There's absolutely no denying that the main focus of leves is EXPing.

"Content" is a pretty fuzzy term, and I don't expect everyone to be on the same page as I am regarding what it entails. But, to me at least, content is what you do when you're not leveling. Sure, content may give you EXP, but that's not the point of it. The point of content is to make you say "Okay, I'm level 30. What can I do now?" not "Okay, I'm level 30. Time to get to level 31."

Right now, FFXIV is very, very focused on leveling, and when you get those levels, it's pretty much either hunting a few NMs, or going back and leveling something else. I think FFXIV's (excellent, in my opinion) job system gave the developers a bit of a crutch. They seem to expect you to level up, and then when you get high enough, to turn around and do it again. MMOs where you only have one job know that you can't just turn around and do it again, so they try harder to give you something to do with your leveled-up character. FFXIV seems to consider leveling to be an end in itself, and that just isn't very exciting once you done it once (or twice, or five times...) already.

Edited, Dec 24th 2010 3:21pm by Caesura
#28 Dec 24 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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I suggest you level now so that when the content that you desire comes you will be ready for it. I doubt they will let the 10 to 30 ranks have any more than they have had up to this point.
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#29 Dec 24 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:

Aur did a great post where he actually took ALL the quests currently available/doable from 1-20 in FFXI and counted them up - and guess what - FFXIV has MORE quests NOW for 1-20 than FFXI does after what, seven? eight? YEARS to develop.

The difference being that quests in FFXI often let you interact with important figures in the story who you'd later face again in different situations. It immerses you into the world. The Ranger AF quest, for instance, deals with historical events from 20 years before the game "began", and now, almost 10 years after the implementation of that quest, you get to actually travel back in time and be there when those events happened. It gave a completely different meaning to the original quest.

What are guildleves? They come with a paragraph of text that has nothing to do with anything of importance and then you go to the designated camp and kill goats. That's it.




Ranger AF quests would be more compared to Archer Class quests, I would say comparing AF quests to guildleves would be kind of unreasonable. Comparing AF quests to class quests would be a better idea. However, class quests are still kind of lacking.
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#30 Dec 24 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Aur did a great post where he actually took ALL the quests currently available/doable from 1-20 in FFXI and counted them up - and guess what - FFXIV has MORE quests NOW for 1-20 than FFXI does after what, seven? eight? YEARS to develop.


Yea but go ahead and tell me how many classes I need to level to 20 to play those quests? hold on, lemme count them for you: 19 classes. 19. Seriously? Listen, I honestly LOVE the class quests in this game and LOVE the storyline quests but when I walked into Nanawa and explored a little it just struck me as odd for them not to have mining nodes, why not? I think that alone would've been a little cool at least I can be like "you know what, I'm gonna go mine in Nanawa a little, some rare minerals in there." I'm not so much upset for lack of content in general as I am for the diversity of such content, which is nil atm. I think leves are ok, I don't absolutely hate them, but they get repetitive...and its funny when people say do faction leves and behests...honestly, other than the issuing authorities, what is the difference? and te be even more honest, behests suck, I do them every hour for the sp gain, but they just plain suck.

Anyway, I know content is coming, I'm really looking forward to the next update it looks really promising and can't wait to get my hands on it but I'd be really upset if these entire maps were created, once again, just to facilitate leves because right now that is what it seems like. I can run around an entire map to "explore" and all I'll find are stupid crystals and camps.
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#31 Dec 24 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know if the leves you're posting about are much to write home about. I mean, it's great that the designers decided to provide a paragraph of text to accompany the murder of various NPCs and companion animals. But I see nothing in the game world that reflects even vaguely what they're writing.

For "Ser Aucheforne," where are the plantations being ravaged? Why have I never seen a slug before accepting this leve in the entire game? Is rye even present as a drop anywhere else on Vana'diel? What kind of a "hideout" is left unguarded except by slugs and hares? The leve text bears no relation to the game world. They could have cut and pasted the first paragraph of ********* "A Tale of Two Cities" and it would have been just as relevant to what I'm actually experiencing in game- and the quality of writing would be much better.

In "Palemoon Pazezu," I am supposed to track and kill a person- based on a total stranger's accusation- with no evidence at all. When I find her, she is preceded by wolves who- being wild animals- naturally attack me. Then the leve NPC comes out, does NOT shapeshift, and tries to defend herself. Did I just kill an innocent person, cuz lemme tell ya', some catwoman comes at me with a lance, I sure would try to strike back.

For "Rorogun..." I have to kill someone who the quest giver admits is beloved by everyone. Based solely on anonymously "gathered intelligence," I go and ambush a performer and slay him. But the leve text states explicitly that Rorogun is a mummer with a travelling galago show. So where's Rorogun's cart? Why are his (trained, ostensibly) galagos left loose to run around and attack people? Why is there not a single NPC accompanying this famous artist? The leve text, again, bears no relation to what the game actually throws at me.
#32 Dec 24 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Teegotaru wrote:
2 consistent points in this thread irritate me to no end.

1. Anyone who disagrees with the OP about the mines having mining points. It is absolutely ridiculous that they don't. And dreaming up excuses for the dev teams oversight (ie: oh, someday it will be multiple levels and there will be higher grade points in there) hold absolutely no water. If it was meant to be a level 10 gathering area it wouldn't be a level 30 leve area. It was a simple matter of being over looked or more likely another half ***, half implemented, half baked idea that was 'working as intended' at launch.


That's all well and good except that there are multiple references to the fact that the only reason why Amanji and Sons lets you into the mines is because the area you're given access to has been picked clean. In fact, the rank 20 and 30 miner quest features dialogue from a certain pair of lovable lollerfels taunting you about basically being too much of a scrub to be allowed access to the mines proper. Normally when a developer doesn't finish a zone, they'll just gate it off and/or park an NPC out front telling you you're not allowed in yet (see: Ishgard). For them to have made several references to the fact that the upper level is now devoid of resources and you're not allowed into the lower level suggests that it's that way be design, not omission.
#33 Dec 24 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The difference being that quests in FFXI often let you interact with important figures in the story who you'd later face again in different situations. It immerses you into the world. The Ranger AF quest, for instance, ...


Throwing this out there:

The quests your disputing were said to be Rank 1-20, not 50-60.
Artifact Armor came after Rise of Zilart.

Furthermore,
There is tons of content available to 1-20 in FFXIV. People just don't like the content.
I can't tell what they do want. They probably would prefer the "wall of text" in a Guildleve be told to them from an NPC while they spam-enter to get through it so they can get to the killing.

^That summarizes 80% of the people I knew in XI. People who couldn't be bothered to even read the cut scenes of Chains of Promathia and subsequently tried to peer pressure me to skip it so we could hurry to the next area.

I'm so moved by your guys pleads for world immersion, but I (like SE apparently) doubt many of you would appreciate it much.

Re: Nanawa Mine
I also had this thought. "Haha a mine with no mining; how preposterous" but knowing there is an in-game explanation for it - and knowing that the mine does function (just not for adventurers, yet) makes me feel better about it. Due to my love for WORLD IMMERSION.
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#34 Dec 25 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Teegotaru wrote:
2 consistent points in this thread irritate me to no end.

1. Anyone who disagrees with the OP about the mines having mining points. It is absolutely ridiculous that they don't. And dreaming up excuses for the dev teams oversight (ie: oh, someday it will be multiple levels and there will be higher grade points in there) hold absolutely no water. If it was meant to be a level 10 gathering area it wouldn't be a level 30 leve area. It was a simple matter of being over looked or more likely another half ***, half implemented, half baked idea that was 'working as intended' at launch.


That's all well and good except that there are multiple references to the fact that the only reason why Amanji and Sons lets you into the mines is because the area you're given access to has been picked clean. In fact, the rank 20 and 30 miner quest features dialogue from a certain pair of lovable lollerfels taunting you about basically being too much of a scrub to be allowed access to the mines proper. Normally when a developer doesn't finish a zone, they'll just gate it off and/or park an NPC out front telling you you're not allowed in yet (see: Ishgard). For them to have made several references to the fact that the upper level is now devoid of resources and you're not allowed into the lower level suggests that it's that way be design, not omission.


Ugh, hard for me to separate real life from gaming sometimes. A real life hobby of mine is 'abandoned mine diving' and I have several 5 gallon buckets of ore I have gleaned from 'picked over' mines.

However you make a good point, and I can see within the lore of the game where it does make sense. My mining skill hasn't reached 20 yet (close though) so I have not been able to see the story line for that job, just an archer with a pick axe in hammer space :)

-Teeg
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#35 Dec 25 2010 at 2:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There is tons of content available to 1-20 in FFXIV. People just don't like the content.
I can't tell what they do want. They probably would prefer the "wall of text" in a Guildleve be told to them from an NPC while they spam-enter to get through it so they can get to the killing.

^That summarizes 80% of the people I knew in XI. People who couldn't be bothered to even read the cut scenes of Chains of Promathia and subsequently tried to peer pressure me to skip it so we could hurry to the next area.

I'm so moved by your guys pleads for world immersion, but I (like SE apparently) doubt many of you would appreciate it much.


uhhg! yea I don't like that and I'm not like that at all, maybe I just dislike the content but I think its a far stretch saying there is a ton of it in FFXIV atm. I always sit there and read a regional or local leve before I do it and enjoy reading them too, but I guess the entire thing is monotonous and even arduous at some points - again, my main gripe wasn't with lack of content although it may have come off as such, but it was that the entire world is used for one thing, leves.
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#36 Dec 25 2010 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:

Throwing this out there:

The quests your disputing were said to be Rank 1-20, not 50-60.
Artifact Armor came after Rise of Zilart.

Ok, let's take a different example: The quest chain relating to Nanaa Mihgo in Windurst. That's a low level quest chain, right? Well, unless you've played WotG, you may not be aware of it, but she's the daughter of two very prominent figures in WotG who you get to fight alongside a whole lot.

Then there is Dr. Shantotto, one of the most beloved characters in FFXI (also appears in FF: Dissidia), who, among other things, offers a few low level quests.

I concede the point that the more interesting quests were generally the higher level ones, though. As far as what content is from expansions and what is from the original game, nobody cares. FFXIV has to compete with those expansions, not just with the original games. You can't justify FFXIV being bad with vanilla FFXI being bad unless your only choices are to play FFXIV or travel back in time to play vanilla FFXI.

Quote:

^That summarizes 80% of the people I knew in XI. People who couldn't be bothered to even read the cut scenes of Chains of Promathia and subsequently tried to peer pressure me to skip it so we could hurry to the next area.

Seriously? I ever met only one person like this. Everyone else were always oohing and aahing at the story cutscenes.



Edited, Dec 25th 2010 8:01am by Omena

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 8:02am by Omena
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#37 Dec 25 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
oices are to play FFXIV or travel back in time to play vanilla FFXI.

Quote:

^That summarizes 80% of the people I knew in XI. People who couldn't be bothered to even read the cut scenes of Chains of Promathia and subsequently tried to peer pressure me to skip it so we could hurry to the next area.

Seriously? I ever met only one person like this. Everyone else were always oohing and aahing at the story cutscenes.



Edited, Dec 25th 2010 8:01am by Omena

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 8:02am by Omena


Most people I know were just mashing their accept key to get through said cutscenes because the grand majority didn't really care for it, and CoP was in XI's prime. The proof that people didn't care was when A crystalline prophacy was released, no one really cared that you finally learned (even though it was hinted ever since vanilla) about the girl who went missing from the tavnazian raid (i.e Aldo's sister) because all they wanted was to get their shiny augmented bodies.

Also no, no MMORPG has to compete with 8 years of content. That's pretty ridiculous to even think because do you know how much time and money ontop of already prior development cost that is? What about the future? If there's 8 years of content thrown at release you're guaranteeing there will be no future updates.

NO MMORPG to date has "competed" with another MMO's content that's been around for awhile, especially in their vanilla phase, even WoW lacked actual unique content when it released, it was mostly repeated content. There is a reason MMORPGs space their content you know. When it comes to FFXIV people go on and on about everything depsite even NEW MMORPGs still following the age old Vanilla = lacking of content in various ways. Every MMO is different in just how much content is in their vanilla, but no MMORPG to date has thrown an onslaught of content at players before they can even utilize it.
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#38 Dec 25 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Default
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:

Most people I know were just mashing their accept key to get through said cutscenes because the grand majority didn't really care for it, and CoP was in XI's prime. The proof that people didn't care was when A crystalline prophacy was released, no one really cared that you finally learned (even though it was hinted ever since vanilla) about the girl who went missing from the tavnazian raid (i.e Aldo's sister) because all they wanted was to get their shiny augmented bodies.

Their loss, I guess. I mean, CoP didn't really even get you anything substantial until Sea access for potential HNM kills and the ring at the very end of it. Not that I really cared about those things as I just wanted to see the story and the awesome fights and areas. Everyone loves Prishe, right?

Quote:

Also no, no MMORPG has to compete with 8 years of content. That's pretty ridiculous to even think because do you know how much time and money ontop of already prior development cost that is? What about the future? If there's 8 years of content thrown at release you're guaranteeing there will be no future updates.

Nonsense. Of course every MMO has to compete with the full force of every previous MMO that's operational. Why would anyone play the newer game if it's worse? It MUST be better or FFXIV happens. Launch day WOW was quite complete, only missing true end game content (not sure if UBRS was in, but I think at least LBRS, Scholomance and Stratholme were and Molten Core was soon to follow IIRC), but another reason why WoW was so successfully able to compete with other games was that it was so different from previous MMOs. It didn't really have to go head on with rival MMOs but FFXIV does because it isn't a giant leap into unexplored space. If it was a non-targeting based game like Tera, it could ride that and not have to rely on competing with content, but that's just not the case.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 10:42am by Omena
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#39 Dec 25 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Seriously this argument of content and world immersion is funny for two reasons.

FFXIV is vanilla.
All the comparison quests spoken of in this game are FFXI's first, second, fourth and sixth expansions.

Zilart is an expansion.
Promathia is an expansion after Zilart.
Aht Urghan is the third and had missions and quests like XIV but those went unnoticed somehow here.
Wings of the Goddess is the fourth major one after many many years of XI's original launch to do the war which you never seen but knew about since VANILLA FFXI. You didn't even get to Rank 10 till after Zilart for MAIN STORY missions.

Now I am no expert on WoW, but the first actual raids came in 1.7 which was Zul'Gurub which was in 2005 and even at THAT POINT the game had been out for nearly a YEAR. So in parallel to FFXI with its Zilart and Sky again. Most of WoW's raids and content were not there at launch! After a full year did most of that just start getting added.

Now FFXI's vanilla had only these areas:

Bastok, Sandora, Windurst and their respective starter zones. Even the enemy outposts like ghelsba were not opened at start. There was no Jeuno, no crag teleports. There was no quest line dealing with powerful npcs and their backstories until the first expansions, and some of the ones mentioned in here are six years from launch. When you hop onto a mmo that is brand new versus one that has had so much content the lines of when stuff MUST flow, but it is so blurred by the experience that one may expect it to be all there in XIV. Well its not and won't be.

Seriously XIV has more content then XI and WoW at launch, nearly three times as much and to even get 10+ person NM runs within three months of release is pretty special. While yes the devs expected people to level evenly, but for those that don't there will be no content for them past 36 in classes.
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#40 Dec 25 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Default
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AceAmallie wrote:

Now I am no expert on WoW, but the first actual raids came in 1.7 which was Zul'Gurub which was in 2005 and even at THAT POINT the game had been out for nearly a YEAR. So in parallel to FFXI with its Zilart and Sky again. Most of WoW's raids and content were not there at launch! After a full year did most of that just start getting added.

Zul'Gurub came after Molten Core, Onyxia's Lair and Blackwing Lair, which was quite far into the life on Vanilla. Molten Core and Onyxia were in the game much, much earlier.

None of this matters, though, because this isn't 10 years ago, this is now. Now we have games with all these expansions, so you have to compete with them. I don't understand how difficult this point seems to be to grasp! You can't make a game that's worse than another game with its expansions because it's still just worse and playing it would be pointless.




Edited, Dec 25th 2010 1:32pm by Omena
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#41 Dec 25 2010 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omena wrote:
AceAmallie wrote:

Now I am no expert on WoW, but the first actual raids came in 1.7 which was Zul'Gurub which was in 2005 and even at THAT POINT the game had been out for nearly a YEAR. So in parallel to FFXI with its Zilart and Sky again. Most of WoW's raids and content were not there at launch! After a full year did most of that just start getting added.

Zul'Gurub came after Molten Core, Onyxia's Lair and Blackwing Lair, which was quite far into the life on Vanilla. Molten Core and Onyxia were in the game much, much earlier.

None of this matters, though, because this isn't 10 years ago, this is now. Now we have games with all these expansions, so you have to compete with them. I don't understand how difficult this point seems to be to grasp!


Because no new MMO in the past few years released with so much content that it beat out content from MMOs from the 90s-early 2000s? (With years worth of content built up) The concept isn't hard to grasp, designers clearly space out their content no matter how much dismay it may cause someone.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 11:30am by Theonehio
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#42 Dec 25 2010 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly- I came into this game expecting it to have less content than a game that has been out since the early 2000s. Other people may not have expected that and are dissapointed.

I don't know what to say about that. I guess part of what I am looking forward to is seeing the world evolve. I never had the chance with XI - when I started Jueno was open, everyone knew where to level at each stage - camps were pretty set up - job combinations were set in stone yadda yadda ya...

I think that a lot of people who were excited to start an MMO from the ground up were occluded and had no idea what that really entailed. It is funny because one of the people who actually told me how it would be (prepare for bugs, unfinished content, etc) is now one of the disillusioned. I, however, am enjoying the chance to rank up at a semi-slow pace - knowing that because of when I started I will actually get to experience most of the content in this game.

:)
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#43 Dec 25 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Omena wrote:

Zul'Gurub came after Molten Core, Onyxia's Lair and Blackwing Lair, which was quite far into the life on Vanilla. Molten Core and Onyxia were in the game much, much earlier.

None of this matters, though, because this isn't 10 years ago, this is now. Now we have games with all these expansions, so you have to compete with them. I don't understand how difficult this point seems to be to grasp! You can't make a game that's worse than another game with its expansions because it's still just worse and playing it would be pointless.


It's not necessary for them to compete and it's neither necessary nor realistic to expect a brand new game to have the same amount of content as a game that has been out 5-8 years. The reason why those games have all that content is because they've been out...5-8 years. No MMO developer in their right mind is going to push back release of their game for 2 years just so they can ship it packed with content on par with established games in order to "compete". All they need to ship is enough content to keep players happily occupied until they can push more content live. That's it. SE did not do that with FFXIV which is why they're facing such criticism over a shortage of content. It's not that the content isn't on par with games like WoW and FFXI, it's that the game doesn't have enough content to keep the average player happily occupied for longer than a few months before it bogs down in monotonous repetition.
#44 Dec 25 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:

It's not necessary for them to compete and it's neither necessary nor realistic to expect a brand new game to have the same amount of content as a game that has been out 5-8 years. The reason why those games have all that content is because they've been out...5-8 years. No MMO developer in their right mind is going to push back release of their game for 2 years just so they can ship it packed with content on par with established games in order to "compete". All they need to ship is enough content to keep players happily occupied until they can push more content live. That's it. SE did not do that with FFXIV which is why they're facing such criticism over a shortage of content. It's not that the content isn't on par with games like WoW and FFXI, it's that the game doesn't have enough content to keep the average player happily occupied for longer than a few months before it bogs down in monotonous repetition.

Obviously it would be madness to try to have as much content as, say, EQ right off the bat. My point is, the game has to be better than the older game or it will be pointless. FFXIV is not as good as older generation MMOs, so barely anybody plays it. It's as simple as that. FFXIV is being held back by a lack of content, but also game design issues. Even in its current state, FFXI (just an example) is in almost every way, other than graphics, the superior product and that's why FFXIV fails. You can't release a game that's worse than another game and expect people to move from it to your new game.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 7:59pm by Omena
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#45 Dec 25 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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Seriously? I ever met only one person like this. Everyone else were always oohing and aahing at the story cutscenes.


Ah god that must be nice. Aside from myself I only knew 3-4 people who enjoyed the story. I played with a hardcore (self proclaimed) end-game LS though. They only wanted to do CoP to get sea. They couldn't be bothered before there was any incentive.
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#46 Dec 25 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
Seriously? I ever met only one person like this. Everyone else were always oohing and aahing at the story cutscenes.


Ah god that must be nice. Aside from myself I only knew 3-4 people who enjoyed the story. I played with a hardcore (self proclaimed) end-game LS though. They only wanted to do CoP to get sea. They couldn't be bothered before there was any incentive.

Why would you play FFXI if you don't care about the story related things? WoW end game has been far superior since Blackwing Lair.
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#47 Dec 25 2010 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
Seriously? I ever met only one person like this. Everyone else were always oohing and aahing at the story cutscenes.


Ah god that must be nice. Aside from myself I only knew 3-4 people who enjoyed the story. I played with a hardcore (self proclaimed) end-game LS though. They only wanted to do CoP to get sea. They couldn't be bothered before there was any incentive.

Why would you play FFXI if you don't care about the story related things? WoW end game has been far superior since Blackwing Lair.


What does end game have to do with story? majority of people who stuck around FFXI for end game did it for end game...I'm sure they didn't do Sky and Dynamis and other HNMs over and over and over again for their deep, rich story....Smiley: dubious
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#48 Dec 25 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Good
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You know, I don't agree with Omena on principle but maybe times have changed.

It isn't "fair" or "accurate" to judge vanilla XIV to games with 5-8 years of content.

...but life isn't fair, is it? XI was my first MMO. WoW was MANY people's first MMO. Star Wars Galaxies came out just before XI (in NA) I'm sure some people started there. I only saw people play EQ before XI. (Just my personal experience, not sure what else was out there back then that captured people's attention).

My point is I didn't really compare XI to anything. I compared WoW to XI (and decided against committing to it) when WoW was released. Now I compare XIV to XI & WoW (primarily) and a handful of other MMO I dabbled in over the last decade.

I am on the side of the argument that does NOT compare XIV to (current) XI and at most I compare it to vanilla XI (basically XI minus the RoZ content we got with NA release). However, maybe I (we) are in the minority. Maybe Omena is on to something.

Maybe the reason WoW & XI press on while many new MMOs sputter out quickly is because it's hard to compare a new MMO (with a new MMO's worth of content) to older ones (for MOST people, I mean). Maybe after a decade of playing well developed and established games, people are trying new MMO and thinking "This is it? Really? I have so much more to do in my other games (still)." They aren't (pun intended) wow'd by MMO hatchlings.

Now free-to-play MMO don't have to worry that much because they're not collecting a monthly due. They will have steady membership and steady income because people want what they're offering without the monthly fee. They're literally a dime a dozen.

Anyway, I'm agreeing that it isn't fair to compare XIV to these other established games, but does that mean people aren't doing it? (Obviously they are - and obviously they can't even remember vanilla WoW or XI because I see some fabrications of the truth/reality over and over again).

Maybe the future of MMO is in danger because graphics aren't getting PROFOUNDLY better (better, yes, but leaps and bounds not really). So the need to jump to a "new generation" of MMO isn't as big an incentive (yet). XIVs graphics are amazing, but they aren't so much better than XI and WoW that [said games] are hideous eyesores (like EverQuest and Ultima are to me compared to XI/WoW). So we can only judge the games (superficially, mind you) on what we can do and how much fun we're having.

Now my advice to players is ... hey do what you enjoy doing in XIV and when you're bored, go back and enjoy what you do in [whatever game you came from] but that doesn't help Square Enix get positive reviews, nor does it make them as much money as they'd like so it's a bad situation for MMO launches. I think most people know/understand that within 6 months to a year XIV may actually be a game EVERYONE enjoys, but a lot of people already made up their mind - or new MMOs will arrive that actually do "wow" people enough to hook them.

I dunno. I'm gonna stick with XIV for the long haul, because I like it as it is and I know I'll like it more over time - but that's just not an opinion I can force upon the masses. I haven't played a new MMO in a 3-4 years but from lack of exposure I'm assuming a lot of the ones that sprung up have since died out or gone free to play or are barely hanging on with minimal populations. FFXIV might just be caught up in this phenomenon and there's nothing we can really do about it. Omena may sadly be right.
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#49 Dec 25 2010 at 11:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm probably the odd man out with this but, I've almost always liked my MMO's more in the first few months (the months that the game was in the image the developer wanted) than after (the months/years that the developer tried to follow player feedback to get more players playing = more income).

I was playing a MMO called Perfect World. It's free to play and I was low on funding at the time so I checked it out. I played for almost three years. I really enjoyed the first year and a half or so. Then they started adding things to the cash shop like XP stones, quest books, etc. that people could use to level faster. The problem with that is that the game is heavily PvP based.

Now, I understand that that's not Final Fantasy, but I also understand that SE is a business and that income is the bottom line. If enough players whine they will change the games original design to attract more players and create more income. That's a good thing for most people. It could mean that the game gets better, but I've found that what I enjoy and what the majority enjoy are quite different.

I understand, but at the same time disagree with the content argument. People are arguing that there isn't "any" and/or "very little" content in the game. If there were absolutely no content in the game then it wouldn't be a game.

A game with no content would consist of nothing. Not even the ability to create your own character because that would in fact be content. For example, the content of a book is not only the words written on the pages but, the pages themselves, the cover, any art on the book, everything that is a part of the book is it's contents.

That's just me being stubborn though. I understand what people mean, I just have issues with people not being able to word it correctly enough to form a proper argument.

If you want the game to change, instead of just complaining that there's no content, go to the feedback forums and post something you would like to see added. If you're going to cry about a lack of content you should at least be able to provide an idea for possible content. After all, if you can't think of anything in the game you'd like to see/do, and suggest that to them, what right do you have to expect them to implement something that you would enjoy. After all, I don't know many people that can read minds. If you don't tell them what you want to see in the game, then they don't provide content that you enjoy, you shouldn't complain. If you can't think of anything they could add that you would enjoy, and submit it through the proper channels, you're probably playing the wrong game.

The argument should be, and has been worded differently by other people, that there isn't enough content that people enjoy to do repetitively. The fact is though, that's what most MMORPG's are. Interacting with people to do, pretty much, the same content over and over again. A raid is a raid. The layout of the dungeon may be different. The creatures in the dungeon may be different, but the action is the same. Kill some mobs in dungeon 1 or kill some mobs in dungeon 2. The only differences are the map and mobs.

That's what irritates me when people complain about grinding. If you want to play a game that progression is secondary and/or nonexistent then play an action game, a fps, or any of the many other genre's that provide that type of content.

MMORPG's are a grind. Doesn't matter what you're doing, it's a grind. I want to make equipment piece X, but to do so I need to make pieces a, b, c, and then combine them to make peice Y then combine that with piece Z that I got as a drop from mob 23. It's a grind. It's the goal and length of time required to complete that goal that's the common issue with modern gamers. Hint: if you aren't having fun doing it, don't do it. There's probably something else you could be spending your time on.

MMO's are popular now, so people that wouldn't normally play them want to because friends are, they want to be involved/part of a community, or whatever reason. Then, after realizing that the game isn't what they expected and that they don't really enjoy it, they want the game to change to suit their desires instead of finding and/or sticking to the the genres that they know they enjoy.

I know I enjoy RPG's and FPS. I know I don't usually enjoy racing or sporting games. I don't buy racing games, then complain that there isn't any more to do than drive cars around race tracks. Pretty much the same thing as someone buying a RPG then complaining that there's a grind... that's usually part of a RPG, not always, but usually. Character progression of almost any kind is grinding, unless your character progresses fast enough and easy enough to not matter, and if that's the case, what's the point of even having a progression system.

Don't get me wrong, I think there's an MMO out there for everyone that desires to play one. But maybe, instead of complaining that a game isn't what it should be, people should except that the game isn't what they were looking for and move on.

I'm not saying that FFXIV wasn't lacking at launch, mostly in program issues. I'm just saying that some of us enjoy the games as they are, but may not so much after it's been changed to suit the common players desire.

As I said, I realize that I'm probably the odd man out with this. Karma bombs away.

I'm looking forward to see what the game will turn into. Maybe I'll enjoy it, maybe I won't. If I don't, you won't see me shedding a single **** tear on these forums though.
#50 Dec 26 2010 at 12:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
Launch day WOW was quite complete, only missing true end game content (not sure if UBRS was in, but I think at least LBRS, Scholomance and Stratholme were and Molten Core was soon to follow IIRC), but another reason why WoW was so successfully able to compete with other games was that it was so different from previous MMOs. It didn't really have to go head on with rival MMOs but FFXIV does because it isn't a giant leap into unexplored space. If it was a non-targeting based game like Tera, it could ride that and not have to rely on competing with content, but that's just not the case.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 10:42am by Omena


*sigh*

I wish people would stop parroting this false information from WoW-bashers on these forums. WoW launched with the entire dungeon tier and raid tier content -- Scholomance, Stratholme, Blackrock Spire (in its entirety), Molten Core, and Onyxia. YES, all of that was in the game. The *first* content update that issued any sort of additional dungeon was Maraudon (40-50) for leveling purposes and the first *raid* content update issued into the game were the outdoor bosses Kazzak and Azuregos.

You want proof? Go look at a patch schedule (seen on their own site, nonetheless).

Furthermore, Omena, it *is* foolish to expect FFXIV to have to compete with MMOs with years of content in terms of launch comparison. Foolish and stupid. FFXIV is expected to compete with other Vanilla MMOs released within the general time span (let's just say the past 2-3 years).

AceAmallie wrote:
Now I am no expert on WoW, but the first actual raids came in 1.7 which was Zul'Gurub which was in 2005 and even at THAT POINT the game had been out for nearly a YEAR. So in parallel to FFXI with its Zilart and Sky again. Most of WoW's raids and content were not there at launch! After a full year did most of that just start getting added.


No, you're not an expert. You're also entirely incorrect.

AceAmallie wrote:
Seriously XIV has more content then XI and WoW at launch, nearly three times as much and to even get 10+ person NM runs within three months of release is pretty special.


False.

Thanks for playing.

Edited, Dec 26th 2010 1:36am by StrijderVechter
#51 Dec 26 2010 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I don't care how FFXIV compares with other games when they launched. Right now, it has to be better than other games on the market, or people are going to play those other games instead.

And, by-and-large, that seems to be what's happening. Maybe it's more reasonable to cut FFXIV some slack because it's new, but in the end if it's not more fun than other games, people are going to play other games. There are always going to be people who want to get in on the "ground floor" of a new MMO, but to keep a mainstream audience a game has to offer them more fun than they can get elsewhere. I don't think anyone can really argue objectively that FFXIV does that right now.



Edited, Dec 26th 2010 4:12am by Caesura
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