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Hitting the Proverbial WallFollow

#52 Dec 27 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry to repost this, but part 2 finished uploading, thanks.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2twiceQ1dpE
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_u1tm35az0

SP system thoughts

<3 Mog
#53 Dec 27 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Nicely done, Mog. I agree, the players are doing it wrong. No one bothers to research, but everyone likes to complain. It's far too easy, and even easier to ignore evidence that might suggest the contrary.

Keep making videos and speaking truth in the forums.
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#54 Dec 27 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you, its tough being the 1 person in a crowd saying the opposite of popular belief. I even got rated down from sage for doing it =(
#55 Dec 27 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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I would like to ask DoctorMog if he finds the leveling content fun or engaging and if it makes full use of the extensive skill/combat system the game has in place
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#56 Dec 27 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fun is what you make of it. My friends and I hop in vent, chat away, I watch shows in the background (as I said in my video) and it is generally fun yes.

Without people to socialize with, no linkshell, and nothing but the game, no, I can totally agree why some people have stated it is very monotonous. No disagreement there. But then again, how would WoW and other games would be the same way with no way to socialize?

But the gods honest truth is that I am having fun, and I wouldn't be making the videos and throwing a counter opinion out there to the wind to get shot down so often if I didn't believe it was.

Sorry If I get snippy now and then on the forums. I'm working on that XD

Edit: as for using all the skills I have available, HECK yes. The more you level, the MORE fun the game becomes because it opens up more and more things to do in combat!

Edited, Dec 27th 2010 3:38pm by DoctorMog
#57 Dec 27 2010 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Well, you didn't answer my question so i'll assume that you don't think the combat is fun or engaging and that it doesn't make use of the extensive skills they've put in place and needs a bit of work overall. *SEE EDIT*

I do however agree with you in that anything can be fun with the right company. Me and a friend have spent hours and hours kicking a ball between us while we chatted, but we wouldn't say kicking the ball backwards and forwards was fun, we would have said we had a fun time chatting. I guess what i'm getting at here is that we should always remember where the real source of any fun we have is coming from.

Another thing, you watch shows in the background while you're playing? Hmmm... do you not see how this is a problem when you are playing a game that is supposed to entertain you solely? I'm not having a go... it just seems strange that you'd have to socialize with friends and watch a show while you play to complement it.

EDIT: Oh, thanks for answering my question :) Can you explain to me how you manage that when enemy mobs die in less than ten seconds or so when you're in a party of friends? All I managed was a light slash then a skull sunder if I was lucky and the mob was dead.

Another question I had was are you the GM or LS leader of your LS? Some people with similar views as your own have a huge LS behind them and I was curious if this was the case with you too.




Edited, Dec 27th 2010 3:50pm by tylerbee
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#58 Dec 27 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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the game has its flaws and no one can deny this, the SP system is one of them, grinding for 3-5 hours either solo or in a group to get 1/4 a level is not fun by the standards of any new MMO in the market.
most MMO these days don't require you to grind a level, they add quests to make the grind more appealing, and this is not here if FFXIV.
if they want to slow us down from getting to 50 then they have a bad strategy to do so, this is not fun and will drive the rest of players away from the game, and we can see this happening every day.
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#59 Dec 27 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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As you gain more skills, and level up closer to 50 (and gain more stat points) you can then take on stronger monsters because you do substantially more damage and are far more effective by knowing the skills that are good against certain mobs and having those skills equipped.

For instance, right NOW its Coblyns or bust, but we have been making the move to puks recently because most of us have a good assortment of slashing skills from other classes and enough STR and DEX that they are good to grind on.

I see later on down the road, the weakness of each monster type will be known, players will have enough stat points to swing themselves into effective range to kill them faster, and many many more camps will open up as great exp because a certain set of skills will be super effective against the monsters at that camp.

Edited, Dec 27th 2010 3:50pm by DoctorMog
#60 Dec 27 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
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But what I am saying here is that regardless of mob the best SP comes from enemies that die fast so this ends in people making small groups and killing mobs that die in 10 seconds under the combined might of the trio etc. With this time frame I can't see how any strategy is integrated or debuffs etc are worth casting. For example accuracy debuffs on the enemy and similar. If they're dying so quick and chaining these mobs is indeed the best source of SP then where is the strategy that you're talking about?

Please enlighten me so I can understand where you are coming from
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#61 Dec 27 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Ah,

I made a video a while back explaining exactly what you are asking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-BiqdxRg5Q

Even solo there are ways to be strategic.

Enjoy
#62 Dec 27 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, I think solo is great and working as intended. You do have to use many weaponskills etc ;D Nice video

I think party play is lacking though in that aspect.
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#63 Dec 27 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, like I said, as weaknesses are learned, party play on much tougher monsters will come around.
Its not like those skills I used in the video are solo exclusive XD

Edited, Dec 27th 2010 4:07pm by DoctorMog
#64 Dec 27 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Thank you, its tough being the 1 person in a crowd saying the opposite of popular belief. I even got rated down from sage for doing it =(


Its going to come the territory you have put yourself in. The average crowd is going to "see" you as someone boasting your exploits and acting all "high and mighty" while the majority of us are struggling through our 20's n 30's. Its just a bit of jealously mixed with confusion as to how you did it. You can't win even though what you are saying is pretty **** accurate. Kinda sucks because what you have been able to accomplish is such a short amount of time is pretty **** impressive.

Anyways...I just carpet bombed ya with a ton of rate ups to help get ya back to Sage.
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#65 Dec 27 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Default
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DoctorMog wrote:
10 hours @ 10k an hour from rank 49-50.

Could be worse.


Well to be fair, it actually is quite a bit worse than 10 hours as that's assuming straight grinding and nothing but grinding. In practice you have to factor in time for travel, deaths, afks, and (assuming not solo) the rest of your group to fumble around with various activities (repairs, wards, leve queuing, teleport gatherings, etc...).
#66 Dec 27 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you
#67 Dec 27 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Well, like I said, as weaknesses are learned, party play on much tougher monsters will come around.
Its not like those skills I used in the video are solo exclusive XD

Edited, Dec 27th 2010 4:07pm by DoctorMog


With an SP increase for tougher mobs the problem will solve itself, I think.

As it stands right now, as reported by many level 50s, that the easiest way to level is in a smallish party grinding on easy mobs, where every party member does 1-2 skills and the mob is dead. No strategy there.

It would be a huge pity if the only time you had to think about using debuffs, tactics, strategy and similar while in a party was fighting NMs which is less than 5% of the time spent leveling to 50.

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#68 Dec 27 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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I would love to see a bonus to party play grinding really soon, I am realizing the more I solo how much of a time sink it is. The game is more fun with other people, but im losing interest. I mostly pop on for behest and do my leves.
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#69 Dec 27 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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i went 38-50 in 15 days on doblyns 46-50 in 3 days, just got to stick on one job, and surplus didnt stop me i grinded even on r3 or r4 surplus and that didnt stop me but of course i grinded like 12-16 hrs a day, once for 37 hours straight
#70 Dec 27 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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It's not broken, trust me. It sucks, but it's working exactly how they want it to - i.e. artificial roadblock.
SE want to prevent 2 things from happening.

1. The majority of the existing population to be super established when the PS3 crowd is introduced to the servers.
2. The existing population to get established and find out there's nothing to do with that rank 50 job atm, and stop playing.
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#72 Dec 27 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Restyoneck wrote:
It's not broken, trust me. It sucks, but it's working exactly how they want it to - i.e. artificial roadblock.
SE want to prevent 2 things from happening.

1. The majority of the existing population to be super established when the PS3 crowd is introduced to the servers.
2. The existing population to get established and find out there's nothing to do with that rank 50 job atm, and stop playing.


I think they've lost far more players to "The Proverbial Wall" than they would have to cap fatigue. The ability system that promotes multi-class leveling as well as the variety of crafting/gathering jobs would have kept "cappers" playing long after reaching it. That leaves it all on #1 or the unlisted #3: "The game is still in Beta, almost completely unbalanced in many aspects."
#73 Dec 27 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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msconduct wrote:
shady113 wrote:
i went 38-50 in 15 days on doblyns 46-50 in 3 days, just got to stick on one job, and surplus didnt stop me i grinded even on r3 or r4 surplus and that didnt stop me but of course i grinded like 12-16 hrs a day, once for 37 hours straight


Congrats, you have nothing better to do than sit on your *** and spam 1 1 1 1 1 for 16 hours a day.
Get a life.


Thats basically it. If you are in college and have no life you have the time to get to 50 in multiple classes. This person is about exactly where i'm at as a casual gamer. bout 2 classes at 30 and the rest in the teens. I dont mind that people have no life just admit you are a looser with no life heh. j/k but it def is not a casual gaming and feels more like a second job.
#74 Dec 27 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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i say if you want a casual game go play FFXI now. because this sp system is very boken. People that are defending just need to stop. If SE listened to the people defending everything about this game, you would still have a broken piece of crap game. You people are saying you get 10k a hour SP....so you get the exact same as FFXI...but you have to 50ksp per level compared to FFXI 6k. so....if youarent following still. you are getting the exact same exp per hour....but you have to get A LOT more exp for the *more casual* game FFXIV....That makes a lot of sense....totally not a broken system.
#75 Dec 27 2010 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Hi all,

I am also a working adult with a very active family life. 8-12 hrs is all i can spare per week. I find that I still can achieve what I want and more importantly... I can meet people and make friends. I cannot stress the latter enough because it is the KEY INGREDIENT for any MMO progression. Do not expect established groups to recruit you in and provide road maps.

You can have all the nice solo play achievements, grinding made easy, super special effects, etc. If an MMO does not facilitate or encourage player interaction, it fails. Nobody I have read so far talks about it, they rather fixate on minor problems. Statics do not drop from the sky, they get built up from scratch.

I shall give an example of how I sp DoW/DoM, nothing hardcore at all.

: Log on, grab up to 8 combat leves and travel to a camp.
: Try to reach on the behest hr.
: Do 1 behest, followed by 3 leves before next behest.
: Travel to next camp.

I find that in 2hrs+, I do 3 behests(5k each), 8 leves (1k each) plus random snack-mobs and rake up 23-30k sp. In this time, I try to talk to other solo players and try to do leves together. One night, I started solo, and ended up with a 5 man party from people wanting to party up to break the grind.

On a day where I do arrange to sp together with my static, we definitely do about 15-20k/hr and have a lot of fun. Sometimes, we rotate the cities we take leves at, experiment killing mobs, etc, to break the monotony.

I am currently a lvl 40 arm, 34lw, 31bs, 32gs, 29gla, 20+ on all others. I am hardcore? no. Do I play every waking hour? no. However, I do plan to maximize my playtime every time I log on and surf the internet for information alot. :)

I hear some people claim that this game is unforgiving to working adults, no. and its because it is forgiving that has lead to so many problems and complaints from hardcore players. 36hr leve resets, fatigue, it all helps the john doe working adult.

Do not build a prison for yourself from your old mindset.





#76 Dec 27 2010 at 9:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thank you Doctormog. really :D
#77 Dec 27 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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moemoe wrote:
Party play can still be rewarding, the difference now is that it solely revolves around Leves and Behests. I've had the most fun in this game just inviting everybody at a particular camp to a behest party and letting loose on all the mobs. I've made lots of friends this way, now have a bigger linkshell as a result, and came away with some pretty good SP. Furthermore, when we can gather enough LS mates to do leves in groups, we pick some choice leves, link them, and raise the stars to 5 if we can. By doing this we get loads of SP that we wouldn't have been able to get solo. So I guess all we can do now is wait for them to put in place a SP system that will be to everybody's satisfaction. Until then grind leves and behests in groups if you want to party or find yourself some cobs if you want to solo.


My experience really. I use not to like behest at release, but now, I actually enjoy it much more and made some good friends just doing a chain of behest/leve with some random guys, everybody helping each others (fetching new leve, sharing tips, teleporting each others, repairing each other gears...)
I'm not saying that I wouldn't like the party play outside of leve/behest to be slightly more rewarding and challenging though. I miss the FF11 system pre-toah and all the interaction.
Regarding the solo play of blue/green, i find it is where it should be for the most part. I would like to get more xp on yellow/orange/red though, I don't think I would switch my solo leveling habit to kill more yellow and higher but that would make more sense and the occasional harder/longer fight would at least be rewarding

Keep the thread running, good discussion I think
#78 Dec 27 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah, i know, atm i dont have a job im out of school and have nothing else better to do im not playing like that anymore though it was just to rush to rank 50 i have slowed way down now though
#79 Dec 27 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry to change some of the subject, but quite a few people mentioned they liked some of my videos, is there any topic anyone would like to see a video on?

I do like to make them, but can't usually think of a good subject.

Edited, Dec 27th 2010 11:58pm by DoctorMog
#80 Dec 27 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Good
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You can argue the mechanics of leveling all you want, but if people aren't enjoying leveling and leveling is 90%-ish of the game, then that's a real problem. I think people would be fine with slow and rather uninteresting leveling if there were much else to do, but there isn't.

Leveling either needs to feel more satisfying, or something else needs to distract players from unsatisfying leveling. Until either of those things happens, leveling is broken.
#81 Dec 27 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
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Caesura wrote:
You can argue the mechanics of leveling all you want, but if people aren't enjoying leveling and leveling is 90%-ish of the game, then that's a real problem. I think people would be fine with slow and rather uninteresting leveling if there were much else to do, but there isn't.

Leveling either needs to feel more satisfying, or something else needs to distract players from unsatisfying leveling. Until either of those things happens, leveling is broken.


This is pretty much how I feel. Make it fun, or make it shorter. This isn't about effort, there isn't anything I'd consider effort involved, its a time sink. People either find the current SP chart acceptable or not, and from the sounds of it more people seem to feel that its not.
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#82 Dec 28 2010 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Caesura wrote:
You can argue the mechanics of leveling all you want, but if people aren't enjoying leveling and leveling is 90%-ish of the game, then that's a real problem. I think people would be fine with slow and rather uninteresting leveling if there were much else to do, but there isn't.

Leveling either needs to feel more satisfying, or something else needs to distract players from unsatisfying leveling. Until either of those things happens, leveling is broken.


Couldn't have said it better myself. While I'm grateful you've taken the time to make your videos DoctorMog, and that you have found ways to efficiently level by doing the exact same thing over and over ad infinitum, that's really not what I'm looking for in the game. I don't WANT to sit at a camp all day just grinding on the same mobs. If I wanted to do that, I'd go back and play ffxi. I was really hoping there would be more to it than that. The main problem is that yes, if I wanted to get 10k every hour I'm sure I could do exactly as you say and do just fine. But what if that's not how I want to level? What if I want to party in a large group on really tough mobs? What if I want to solo VT-IT mobs that AREN'T coblyns/djiggas? What if I want to duo/trio EP mobs (again not coblyns/djiggas) The truth is, if I try and do these things, I get extremely slow SP as a reward. In a group of more than 5 for partying on VT-IT mobs, I average about 5k sp per hour. Soloing anything OTHER than doblyns/djiggas (and a few mobs mixed in), I average even less. Duoing/Trioing EP mobs, forget it. That's the problem that I have.

So while you might say the system is "working as intended", I say that if this is intended, they need to fix what they consider to be working properly, as it's certainly not working for me... =/

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 1:44am by BartelX
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#83 Dec 28 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Good
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Then my next video will be on a group of 6, killing Red mobs for SP.

Ill work on it tomorrow.
#84 Dec 28 2010 at 12:53 AM Rating: Good
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tylerbee wrote:
With an SP increase for tougher mobs the problem will solve itself, I think.

As it stands right now, as reported by many level 50s, that the easiest way to level is in a smallish party grinding on easy mobs, where every party member does 1-2 skills and the mob is dead. No strategy there.

It would be a huge pity if the only time you had to think about using debuffs, tactics, strategy and similar while in a party was fighting NMs which is less than 5% of the time spent leveling to 50.


I completely, 100% agree with this and this is the issue I feel is the worst.

It's disheartening to know that, if I want to go kill challenging mobs with my fiancee, we're effectively nerfing ourselves as we should instead be mowing down easy mobs as fast as possible.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 2:56am by TheRealDestian
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#85 Dec 28 2010 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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To the sages, how would you define what is fun?

I have a sinking feeling players just want to be shown the way rather than try things out themselves in this really good sandbox that is ff14.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 2:06am by renmabiao
#86 Dec 28 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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I was thinking that myself,

you know just make the game "fun"

real easy. Just add it in. lol takes 2 seconds
#88 Dec 28 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Furia wrote:
There are always going to be super hardcore and elitist players that prefer (if not enjoy) 10+ hour grinds for a single level. They probably have a storied history with Korean and/or early year MMO's and enjoy it because it keeps the peasants from climbing their mountain, and provides a sense of accomplishment for their 6-12+ hour daily gaming sessions. There's nothing wrong with that, that's their opinion and how they get their jollies. Ultimately though, the success (or failure) of the game and response (or lack of) from the developers will determine who "right" and "wrong", who is the "minority" and the "majority".

Realistically, I don't think any casual player is going to play this game (under it's present curve) past the early 20's, and all but the most hardcore of hardcore will give up between 30 and 40. These pre-patch Vs. post-patch arguments are always the same thing--exaggerations to prove a point. Groups efficient and enterprising enough to pull down 15k/HR under the new system knew how to make 25k/HR in the old system. Personally, for the vast majority of players, I think the rate of progress was ~cut in half with the switch from old and new system. Sometime we give people too little credit, this is not a case big number syndrome. It's pretty obvious when you're spending twice the time to accomplish the same thing.


basically... this guy just explained why WoW is still succeeding and why FFXIV is failing and will continue to fail unless they make leveling more like WoW...

and he is right!!!...

So success for big companies benefits casual players and screws hardcore players in the **** ****...
#89 Dec 28 2010 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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msconduct wrote:
renmabiao wrote:
To the sages, how would you define what is fun?

I have a sinking feeling players just want to be shown the way rather than try things out themselves in this really good sandbox that is ff14.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 2:06am by renmabiao


The "Sages" will say anything and everything as vague or specific as they need to be to kiss SE's ***. They stop at nothing to get as many Rate Ups as possible



I didnt! And look, now I'm a scholar

XD
#91 Dec 28 2010 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for posting those videos Doctor Mog. Nice to see something positive and helpful for a change.
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#92 Dec 28 2010 at 1:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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msconduct wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
msconduct wrote:
renmabiao wrote:
To the sages, how would you define what is fun?

I have a sinking feeling players just want to be shown the way rather than try things out themselves in this really good sandbox that is ff14.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 2:06am by renmabiao


The "Sages" will say anything and everything as vague or specific as they need to be to kiss SE's ***. They stop at nothing to get as many Rate Ups as possible



I didnt! And look, now I'm a scholar

XD


Exactly my point, you say the truth one time and all of a sudden you're a nobody.

Ratings are STUPID, wake up sheeple


/em passes out the tinfoil hats.
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#93 Dec 28 2010 at 1:59 AM Rating: Good
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Please do not use casual or hardcore as banners for your stands because I want to hear you all define what casual and hardcore is.

Is casual defined by playtimes?

You will gain 100k sp post 30s with a 8hr playtime per week, be it killing easy mobs, hard mobs, leves, and/or behest.

Easy mobs maybe better for sp, but the real loss is that... its for sp only, you get no l00t that is 'above your reach', no faction, no groups, no leve rewards, nothing. That is the trade-off, and for what? 3-4k sp more per hour? Why should anyone feel sour about it? The game is throwing the hermits a lifeline here.

Is casual defined as ability to get achievements in a short time frame?
What is the achievement a casual wants to get?

Because I am definitely a casual if it is defined by playtime. I do not want achievements or meaningless levels handed to me to feel good, nor a walkthrough so I can see the story. I have a good platform to experiment with this world, with new combined abilities, exploration of camps, mobs, their behavior. I can choose solo, group with friends, and I have a world with imperfect information to interact with players, explore together.

Because I am casual, I have a thirst to optimize the time I have online, look for ways to cut corners and get what I want. Perhaps, that is what you all need too. A desire to find a way rather than despair.

I'd like to end that there is a place for groups, even if the sp rewards are not significantly more. SP will end when you hit 50, and you WILL need a group for the endgame challenges, you will need to know how the game mechanics work, you will need to know how to communicate and strategize with short time frames, how to work as a team.

WOW is horrible because there are tons of people at max level that don't even know how to manage their aggro, how other classes work because... they solo-ed their way to the top, never really needed to interact with anyone else, think they're all champs because the quests tell them so and they have welfare epics too. I've had many server 1sts in WoW during my times there, but none I valued over my times in ff11, where I had to earn my way up with claw and nail in social context, game mechanics, etc.

I'm sorry if that was too emotional, I just do not like people venting with vague accusations, no solutions and stubbornness to accept evidence before them. Doctor Mog has very kindly shown in videos how things could be, even to the point of showing how group mechanics can work and yet... some hang on to their mindless hate. I would've left the whiners to their fates, ff14 is better without them.











#94 Dec 28 2010 at 2:13 AM Rating: Good
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I'll have to just echo what others are saying; that the game is just too grindy, especially when there's no actual purpose to grind (nothing to obtain) and for a game this day and age.

I don't mind grinding; I can veg out with the rest of them, listen to good music and knock the levels back, but there's no progression to obtain armor, weapons, quests, anything. There's no 'world' there, just an isolated (albeit good) main quest and class quests that feel like I haven't continued in AGES.

Yes, last night I leveled up three classes to 10 by grinding alone, and did some faction leves and a couple regular leves on my PUG, and some crafting all in about 5 hours. Was it fun? It wasn't completely horrible, but it was more of that 'breaking through that wall' than I'd like to experience. The only reason why I was able to put those hours in was because I'm on vacation and the only thing I got for the holidays was a coffee maker.

I guess the point is, is that we're all spoiled on what constitutes good progression in an MMO, whether it be from WoW or wherever. I want to level up with the world. I want to experience new areas, fight new monsters, get new armor, fight bigger monsters and progress at a 'decent' clip and that pace is way too slow for me, and I'm sure the rest of us.

SE needs to either fill in the cracks with tons more content, lower the SP ceiling or provide more SP per mob to get to endgame (where eventual content will be).
#95 Dec 28 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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What they really need to do is improve the group play aspect of this game to make parties more viable. Improve the SP bonus to a more appropriate level for teaming up and make it more fun. Right now we generally have four to six people wailing on a monster. That's about it. There's very little strategy involved except the occasional taunt and AoE heal spams from your Thaumaturge or Conjurer. It just feels too basic, and basic means boring in a game like this. There's no real synergy between party members, and it's a damned shame considering multiplayer is supposed to be the major draw for online games like this.

Square Enix announced a while back that they were working on a means to define class roles a little better. I'm just hoping the update comes sooner rather than later. Final Fantasy XI is by no means perfect, but the team play aspect was paramount to your success in battles. It felt like you were a cog in a machine, each person having their different parts to play to bring a whole to the team. That is what this game is lacking, and it will be all the better for adding it.

As for SP caps, I've never hit them, but I can see how they would frustrate players who have been playing a lot. Perhaps a compromise would be to set the 'cap' relevant to your rank, so at higher ranks you'll have a higher SP cap. Whether they keep it or remove it matters not to me. As I've said, I've not hit the cap before so this neither benefits or hinders me. But when the majority are complaining about it, maybe it's time SE thought carefully about its future implementation or removal.
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FFXIV: Ragnarok Server: Lemuria Glitterhands All Classes 50
#96 Dec 28 2010 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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435 posts
renmabiao wrote:
To the sages, how would you define what is fun?

I have a sinking feeling players just want to be shown the way rather than try things out themselves in this really good sandbox that is ff14.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 2:06am by renmabiao


For me, "Fun" is a sense of reward and accomplishment while simultaneously feeling engaged in what you're doing.

Accomplishment? Maybe. Engaged? Not so much. Even using the "correct" damage type on the correct mob still falls massively short of being even remotely engaging. When there's no danger, what's the point? Killing the same mob type for hours on end is the exact same crap I left Aion to get away from.

I would much rather fight 1 mob every 5 minutes which results in an epic battle that I barely survive than fight 5 mobs a minute in a laughable steamroll.

I played WoW for a year and a half and I certainly never intend to go back to it, but it did a lot of things right, mainly in how progress was possible while still having a life.

SE needs to either take a page from that book or be left with a miniscule playerbase filled with "hardcore" players that are willing to trade copious amounts of their precious time on earth at the going rate of "25k SP per hour" (and they have "fun" with it because they get to feel as though they're accomplishing something because they get to climb that mountain faster, as an earlier poster mentioned).

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 3:23am by TheRealDestian
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#97 Dec 28 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Good
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435 posts
Kierk wrote:
I guess the point is, is that we're all spoiled on what constitutes good progression in an MMO, whether it be from WoW or wherever. I want to level up with the world. I want to experience new areas, fight new monsters, get new armor, fight bigger monsters and progress at a 'decent' clip and that pace is way too slow for me, and I'm sure the rest of us.


I don't think we're spoiled at all. It's a simple equation that dictates what people will and won't put up with in terms of time investment vs. reward.

WoW got to the size it is now by allowing players to progress without needing to go through 8 hour grind sessions. It's not like, prior to WoW, we had MMOs who had the same level of casual appeal and those MMOs were doing fine but WoW "spoiled" the playerbase. It's simply time vs. reward. If people have better ways to spend their time, they'll do so.

As it stands now, FFXIV is unfortunately geared toward those who have nothing better to do than grind incessantly for 8 hours of the day. Ergo, in the end, that's exactly the minority playerbase it'll wind up keeping.
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#98 Dec 28 2010 at 2:38 AM Rating: Good
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72 posts
Quote:
I would much rather fight 1 mob every 5 minutes which results in an epic battle that I barely survive than fight 5 mobs a minute in a laughable steamroll.


Hi, I think you already have that in ff14, go pick a green, yellow or red mob to your group and you have it. From your signature, (How do I get it? :( ) You're a lvl 22 pgl?, try out a skeleton in nanawa with a group, its a blast, a bigger blast when you know how to farm them quickly. :D

I have to agree the SP rewards aren't there atm for group play, my opinion on the matter is that it doesn't have to, because SP is not the reward group play should look at. Group play is already a reward in itself from the moment the party is formed, and sometimes, to the moment when the same players battle with you in the endgame.

#99 Dec 28 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Default
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821 posts
It's funny to see how people argue with things like "casual and hardcore" and complain about the game not being casual enough, when all it takes to get further is just playing it. You can solo everything except for NMs in this game, isn't that already 1000% more casual than FFXI ever was(back in 2006 when I quit)

And the so called "hardcore" players who complain that harder fights don't reward enough SP(which I agree with) BUT, that doesn't keep me from fighting them anyways just for the FUN!!!

Casuals complain that lvling takes too much time(but seriously...when you are really casual, why would you want to hit max rank already?)
Hardcores complain that fighting harder mobs isn't rewarding enough, which is true, but because hardcore players are ****** up cookie cutters, they simply ignore the fact that they COULD fight the mobs and make PTing more fun because of more interesting fights, rather than just go for MAX SP/H OMGWTFBBQ!

It's just as many people said and got rated down for...why not jump of the ******* bandwagon and do things that will give you "fun" in playing, rather than just go with everthing that people said is the law to do...

Just a short example from my experience...many players already know the Doblyn camps south and north east of Broken Water...South of Broken Water there is that small opening where also Desert Peistes spawn...have you seen any **** person ever going in there for SP? No? Well of course not, cause Desert Peistes are "too hard to be worthwhile" so people skip that area. I'm duoing with a friend and we always go in there...first fact...since nobody goes in there we got all the mobs in the opening for us(and there are also around 5-8 Doblyns in there), second we kill the Desert Peistes simply because it is fun to do so and they give us around 2 1/2 the SP that Doblyns give us, which is enough for me. Third...and this proofs my view...as soon as we kill the Desert Peistes in the area, you suddenly see all the other people zerging Doblyns show up in that opening as well, cause there is no "hard mob" blocking the path anymore...

This game can be fun and the mistake most people do is to go with what everyone declares as the "most efficient" way to do stuff, even if it kills having fun in the game, rather than just play how they would have fun...

I guess people just like to torture themselves...poor people that don't know better-_-
#100 Dec 28 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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6,898 posts
renmabiao wrote:

You will gain 100k sp post 30s with a 8hr playtime per week, be it killing easy mobs, hard mobs, leves, and/or behest.

Easy mobs maybe better for sp, but the real loss is that... its for sp only, you get no l00t that is 'above your reach', no faction, no groups, no leve rewards, nothing. That is the trade-off, and for what? 3-4k sp more per hour? Why should anyone feel sour about it? The game is throwing the hermits a lifeline here.

Is casual defined as ability to get achievements in a short time frame?
What is the achievement a casual wants to get?

Because I am definitely a casual if it is defined by playtime. I do not want achievements or meaningless levels handed to me to feel good, nor a walkthrough so I can see the story. I have a good platform to experiment with this world, with new combined abilities, exploration of camps, mobs, their behavior. I can choose solo, group with friends, and I have a world with imperfect information to interact with players, explore together.

Because I am casual, I have a thirst to optimize the time I have online, look for ways to cut corners and get what I want. Perhaps, that is what you all need too. A desire to find a way rather than despair.

I'd like to end that there is a place for groups, even if the sp rewards are not significantly more. SP will end when you hit 50, and you WILL need a group for the endgame challenges, you will need to know how the game mechanics work, you will need to know how to communicate and strategize with short time frames, how to work as a team.


I whole-heartedly disagree with you. You will NOT gain anywhere close to the same amount of SP per hour in a group setting as you will in a solo setting or a small group fighting blue/green. At least, I never have. In fact, I haven't even come close to that. Everytime I have had a large group doing anything post 20, our SP has been abysmal in comparison to small group/solo/pre-20. It's not like we haven't tried either. We've fought everything we could find: hippos, skeles, puks, diremites, efts, etc... in a larger group, nothing seems to work as well.

I'd also like to bring up the crafting/DoL aspects I've mentioned and their respective hurdles. Everyone has been so focused in on the battle that it has gotten neglected. Currently, I am at a complete standstill in any of my crafts that are above rank 20. Besides the 1-2 r15+ leves I get per reset, the only means of leveling these classes is through grinding mats... a process which requires an insane quantity of shards/crystals/mats per rank. Just doing ONE single armorer rank (23-24), I went through 800 earth shards, 600 fire shards, and 40 fire crystals, not to mention 3 stacks of iron nuggets. This is literally the only way I can even rank up my armorer, as each reset I seem to be getting less and less leves that will give out decent sp (15+). As for DoL, if I go out for a mining session (to stock my armorer sessions) I notice that every time, after about 2 hours, I start to damage everything that I prospect. At that point I can get maybe 1/5 successful swings if I guess right, otherwise its an automatic fail.

These are some of the other "proverbial walls" I'm talking about, and I'd like to get others opinions on them as well.
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#101 Dec 28 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
28 posts
what is the definition of a casual game? from reading these posts and ones inother threads it seems people's only definition of a casual game is being able to get to lv cap in a few weeks or maybe 1 month playing only 4-8 hours a week or somehting. i find a casual game is one thatyou can casually log on and make progress, ffxiv being just that. you can log on do a few leves make some money and decent exp/sp then log off. that is progress as far as i am concerned. what do you peopel want a game that is ojnlty rewards peopel for playing the exaclt amoiunt of time you are ablew to play? if you can only play for 4-8 hours a week then if someone else can play that i 2 days dhould the rest of there time be wasted or shoudl they be able to progress farther than you? i think it would be pretty dumb if they could not progress faster tahn you. as far as im conceren almost any game is casual player friendly but casual people just do want to wait to get to the same point as someone that can play much mor ethan them. you need to be able to accept the fact that your play time has a direct effect on how fast you progress in any game.


and also why does everyone want to get to lv cap so fast anyway form what i understand theres nothing for end game to get exicted about anyway. i guess people liek to hurry up and wait.


sorry for bad gammar its not letting me edit my self without re-typing everthing again.
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