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#102 Dec 28 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Way to stick to your guns DoctorMog. I just went through and rated you up all around.

It's good to see someone that has enough game time to reach some fairly high levels and yet is not complaining about SP requirements or lack of content. You seem to have mostly enjoyed your time with FFXIV thus far and that is inspiring for someone like me who plans to follow in your footsteps (at a much slower pace).



#103 Dec 28 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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I played for like 10 hours on sunday and got from 24 to 99% to 26, so basically 2 ranks. So this is basically 6k sp/hr. So i'm thinking what am I doing wrong? I realized from watching your videos (awesome btw), you don't even behest or do levees for the most part. If I had just sat in one place and didn't run from bloodshore (2 leves) -> cass hollow (3 leves) -> cedarwood (3 leves) and wait 10 minutes for behest to pop I could have been earning alot more sp. SO ultimately my question to you, doctor, is do you still do behest/leves for NM or anything like that or are you just not participating in the end game right now?? Thanks for the advice either way, I was just curious about the rest of your playstyle.
#104 Dec 28 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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From my experience, I am having a really fun time playing FFXIV.

I am usually playing duo with my husband and about once or twice a week do a larger group with my linkshell.

My husband and I have fun doing leves and trying to do the highest star we can get by with to have a bit of a challenge. Currently in the mid 30's on my gladiator and having a blast pounding skills frantically to stay alive on tougher mobs and racing my hubby lancer to see if I can beat him if we start on similar mobs at the same time.

We may not be leveling the fastest because we only get to play in the evenings because of work, and we don't "make the most" of our time as far as SP/hr goes, but we certainly have a good time and usually get any where from 1/2 a level to a level a night currently.

I think fun is dependent on how you play the game, some people have fun trying to get to the end as fast as possible and some have fun by just hanging out and making some progress along the way.
#105 Dec 28 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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RoyalBrayden wrote:
I played for like 10 hours on sunday and got from 24 to 99% to 26, so basically 2 ranks. So this is basically 6k sp/hr. So i'm thinking what am I doing wrong? I realized from watching your videos (awesome btw), you don't even behest or do levees for the most part. If I had just sat in one place and didn't run from bloodshore (2 leves) -> cass hollow (3 leves) -> cedarwood (3 leves) and wait 10 minutes for behest to pop I could have been earning alot more sp. SO ultimately my question to you, doctor, is do you still do behest/leves for NM or anything like that or are you just not participating in the end game right now?? Thanks for the advice either way, I was just curious about the rest of your playstyle.



I do indeed to leves and behest! I just don't show them because thus far I have been trying to just debunk a few FFXIV myths. I will start bringing videos of my leves and behest soon for everyone, to show them that the SP is also very good doing them.

For what you got in 10 hours, I think the main reason you got about 6k an hour was your travel time, like you said. Try to plan your day out, be in the right places for Behest and your leves, and bring a friend! Duoing is far less boring, and is definitely the way to go. In one of my videos I mentioned that people should set themselves up for success. Where you stand right now, and probably the same as many other people, is that you log in, don't know what it is you want to do (or level) and do a lot of wandering, gathering of materials, talking and other stuff.

Spend some time setting up your next play session, get your materials when you cant play straight for an hour, you know, in your house, distracted, taking phone calls, w/e. Use that non constant hour of playtime to browse the wards instead of standing at an aetheryte afk. Use that time to get those mats so the next time you play you can just craft away.

Thats just an example, but many many players are so spread out and leveling such a small amount of 5 different classes in 1 play session, it SEEMS like they are not making progress.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 12:41pm by DoctorMog
#106 Dec 28 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yea, you're right. I have never really planned out a day other than "i'm going to do leves when I get home". I will take your advice and hopefully bring my numbers up to 8k at least (that's my first goal).
#107 Dec 28 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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A tip that might help the casual audience;

Pick up your leves the night/day before you do them. Log out with them sitting in your journal. Perhaps even log out that night at the camp where you have your leves. That way when you log in, you can start your leves, do behest if it pops, and even grind a little in the surrounding area if you are waiting on behest or even after you do your leves.

Your friends can always port out there if they want to join you.

Also try picking up leves that begin at an aetheryte crystal, and a second set that begin at the aetherial node that is connected to that crystal so that you can port there for 1 anima instead of running.

For example begin at bloodshore, do your 20 leves, then use the 1 anima to port to cedarwood and do your rank 30 leves.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 12:50pm by DoctorMog
#108 Dec 28 2010 at 12:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I whole-heartedly disagree with you. You will NOT gain anywhere close to the same amount of SP per hour in a group setting as you will in a solo setting or a small group fighting blue/green. At least, I never have. In fact, I haven't even come close to that. Everytime I have had a large group doing anything post 20, our SP has been abysmal in comparison to small group/solo/pre-20. It's not like we haven't tried either. We've fought everything we could find: hippos, skeles, puks, diremites, efts, etc... in a larger group, nothing seems to work as well.

I'd also like to bring up the crafting/DoL aspects I've mentioned and their respective hurdles. Everyone has been so focused in on the battle that it has gotten neglected. Currently, I am at a complete standstill in any of my crafts that are above rank 20. Besides the 1-2 r15+ leves I get per reset, the only means of leveling these classes is through grinding mats... a process which requires an insane quantity of shards/crystals/mats per rank. Just doing ONE single armorer rank (23-24), I went through 800 earth shards, 600 fire shards, and 40 fire crystals, not to mention 3 stacks of iron nuggets. This is literally the only way I can even rank up my armorer, as each reset I seem to be getting less and less leves that will give out decent sp (15+). As for DoL, if I go out for a mining session (to stock my armorer sessions) I notice that every time, after about 2 hours, I start to damage everything that I prospect. At that point I can get maybe 1/5 successful swings if I guess right, otherwise its an automatic fail.

These are some of the other "proverbial walls" I'm talking about, and I'd like to get others opinions on them as well.


I urge you to keep experimenting. I have, and I have also explained how I got it. Is it not detailed enough? If you need a video to be convinced, I guess I can try to fraps 1 up on my next static session. Maybe 10mins rather than 1hr for the sake of file size.

In a group, sp per kill per mob is lower, but so is your downtime, the only way it is slower to me, is that the camp's respawn rate cannot sustain your group, which may mean you need to punch up a bit more or find a camp that is more 'abundant'. My findings are that there are always mobs in a sweet 'level' range that gives you the best sp for your group composition. For leves, my static just adds more stars to the point where sp gain/time gain isn't diminishing.

While it is true that DoL has a problem in damaging after 2hrs of gathering, I contest your findings for DoH. How do you define decent sp? I am a 40 arm now and 23-24... I think I got that in a day without much cost as I do alot of trading. What are you skilling on? Iron squares should be very good for your level, or if you want, bronze sets should net you quite a bit of sp (reinforced bronze mitt gauntlets, bronze chain coif, bronze sollerets, bronze haubergeon) although they are 'quite' hard to move at this stage of the game.

I do crafting leves that are anywhere from -10 to +5, -10 gives me 200+sp and +5 400+sp and you can get 6-8 if you travel 3 cities. As an armorer, leves can be quite erm, easy to select as it is requires so many... sub crafts... leatherworking and weaving if you want to craft your own tank gear and it definitely isn't the easiest craft in ff14 and it gets more insane post 40 for armorer, but its still bearable for me because... I like making armor for people, its a great feeling.












#109 Dec 28 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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renmabiao wrote:
Quote:
I whole-heartedly disagree with you. You will NOT gain anywhere close to the same amount of SP per hour in a group setting as you will in a solo setting or a small group fighting blue/green. At least, I never have. In fact, I haven't even come close to that. Everytime I have had a large group doing anything post 20, our SP has been abysmal in comparison to small group/solo/pre-20. It's not like we haven't tried either. We've fought everything we could find: hippos, skeles, puks, diremites, efts, etc... in a larger group, nothing seems to work as well.

I'd also like to bring up the crafting/DoL aspects I've mentioned and their respective hurdles. Everyone has been so focused in on the battle that it has gotten neglected. Currently, I am at a complete standstill in any of my crafts that are above rank 20. Besides the 1-2 r15+ leves I get per reset, the only means of leveling these classes is through grinding mats... a process which requires an insane quantity of shards/crystals/mats per rank. Just doing ONE single armorer rank (23-24), I went through 800 earth shards, 600 fire shards, and 40 fire crystals, not to mention 3 stacks of iron nuggets. This is literally the only way I can even rank up my armorer, as each reset I seem to be getting less and less leves that will give out decent sp (15+). As for DoL, if I go out for a mining session (to stock my armorer sessions) I notice that every time, after about 2 hours, I start to damage everything that I prospect. At that point I can get maybe 1/5 successful swings if I guess right, otherwise its an automatic fail.

These are some of the other "proverbial walls" I'm talking about, and I'd like to get others opinions on them as well.


I urge you to keep experimenting. I have, and I have also explained how I got it. Is it not detailed enough? If you need a video to be convinced, I guess I can try to fraps 1 up on my next static session. Maybe 10mins rather than 1hr for the sake of file size.


No your explanation is only about you doing leves, and my experiences differ GREATLY from yours for the most part. You also mentioned this:

Quote:
On a day where I do arrange to sp together with my static, we definitely do about 15-20k/hr and have a lot of fun. Sometimes, we rotate the cities we take leves at, experiment killing mobs, etc, to break the monotony.


I'm curious what exactly you are gaining 15-20ksp/hr on? If I do leves w/ my LS, the max I will get is about 10-15k/hr below rank 20, and progressively less the higher level I get and the more people you add to the leves. In fact, we did r20 leves last night in a group of 10 at the start. All levels were 15-20. We netted about 9k/hr. I then solo'd 3 leves and averaged 18k/hr. See the discrepancy? The night before, we did r30 leves as a group, all ranked r28-33. There were about 8 of us and we were pulling about 6k/hr. When the group dropped to 3-4, sp was more like 8-9k/hr and soloing leves was closer to 10k/hr. That doesn't seem very balanced towards party play to me... And this was in leves, supposedly the main source of SP for the game. Just soloing or grouping on my own (unless on Easy Prey targets) I've netted even less. So please, tell me what mobs/leves you are doing that net you such awesome results.

Quote:

While it is true that DoL has a problem in damaging after 2hrs of gathering, I contest your findings for DoH. How do you define decent sp? I am a 40 arm now and 23-24... I think I got that in a day without much cost as I do alot of trading. What are you skilling on? Iron squares should be very good for your level, or if you want, bronze sets should net you quite a bit of sp (reinforced bronze mitt gauntlets, bronze chain coif, bronze sollerets, bronze haubergeon) although they are 'quite' hard to move at this stage of the game.

I do crafting leves that are anywhere from -10 to +5, -10 gives me 200+sp and +5 400+sp and you can get 6-8 if you travel 3 cities. As an armorer, leves can be quite erm, easy to select as it is requires so many... sub crafts... leatherworking and weaving if you want to craft your own tank gear and it definitely isn't the easiest craft in ff14 and it gets more insane post 40 for armorer, but its still bearable for me because... I like making armor for people, its a great feeling.


My problem is as I stated, I just don't get that many leves that are even close to my level. Take this reset for instance. I had 0 r15+ leves in Uldah, 2 r15's in LL, and 0 r15+ in Grid to work with. I don't get SP from r10's (less than 100), so what am I supposed to do? I already explained the shard situation. I burned through over 1000 of them getting just 1 single rank of grinding. Sure the SP/hr was decent, about 10k/hr, but its not something I can repeat every hour. ****, it's not something I can repeat every DAY. I do that for a couple hours once a week, my shard/crystal supply is shot. I've been ranking up on all sorts of iron. Turning nuggets into squares, plates, ingots, chains, rings, you name it. I then turn those products into other things that I can sell or craft with later. The problem isn't what I skillup on, its the lack of leves my range and the still insane quantity of shards needed to "grind".

I realize I could just buy all my shards, but I really don't think that should be required just so that I can repair my own gear. All I want is to hit r28 so that I can repair my bronze set for my glad. So far I've waited 4 resets for leves, and done 2 grinding sessions using all of my shards/crystals, and it has taken me from 21 to just under 25. To me, that just stinks and there's very little I can do to improve that outside of spending a fortune or spending hours upon hours shard farming.
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50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
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#110 Dec 28 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Doctormog, I would have loved to have seen one of your videos focusing on a Pre-Patch 10+ man Eft/Raptor PT as a DD (or a smaller, higher rank PT in Deepcroft), because honestly, I don't think there's any way you would have ONLY gotten 10-15k/HR. Although at second glance, I see you were Conjurer(?) during that time, so that might be why. That's understandable if you were often playing in multi-mage parties, or perhaps didn't have all your DD's willing to soak up the AOE's. Just out of curiosity, what Rank was your primary job (Conjurer?) when the patch hit?
#111 Dec 28 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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I was 50 Conj when the patch hit.

Since then, my goal has been to get everything else to about 30.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 1:55pm by DoctorMog
#112 Dec 28 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I still would like to see more of a return on my time invested in FFXIV. I don't need epic endgame loots for hitting the "easy" button, but I'd love to realize some modicum of tangible success or progress for hours of play time invested. Watching the SP trickle in "slowly" (relative to the total amount of SP required to reach cap) isn't very satisfying. If wanting to see more of a return on my time investment makes me spoiled, lazy, or greedy, so be it.

Everyone assigns a different value to their free time / game time. The value you personally assign to every hour of your time depends on a number of external and internal factors. If you don't have a job, family, significant other, friends, active social calendar, other hobbies (or if you just neglect all of those things) then you probably have an abundance of free time, so a 9-10 hour FFXIV session is common place. Personally, my free time / game time is incredibly valuable to me because I have such a limited amount of it. My time in general is pretty **** valuable to others as well (as I'm a liar lawyer by trade, charging a mere $250-350/hour depending on the client).

For those of us with limited play time (which I consider anything less than 10 hours per week), you stop realizing any significant gains on your time investment after you reach a certain rank. Sure, you get SP...but you don't get any other form of encouragement. I want a cookie!
#113 Dec 28 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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For the combat sp, I shall not discuss further, onus is on me to prove I guess. I will post once I get it. We obviously differ in the way we sp, and stand by our experiences so... I don't see another solution. I'll try to keep you posted once i have it.

are you sure you are getting less than 100 for something -10 for armorer leves? I just tested on something that is -10, hempen tabard a lvl 12 synth, on my 22 weaver. got about 120+ sp. ok. my numbers are wrong for -10 levels. sorry for that but under 100sp?? Was your armorer fatigued?

I understand you can hit a bad reset patch sometimes, I've had them but on average you really do about 4-5 leves every reset around your level range. Something to improve on from SE, but not so disabling to me.

If all you want is to repair for arm, then I say do iron squares all the way, sell the iron squares to blacksmiths and/or other armorers for base cost. They will mug you to get them. :D

Unfortunately for you, the levels you need for self-sufficient repairs is also the same levels to produce goods that can enter the market. Be comforted that at least you can get your investment back.
#114 Dec 28 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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I sympathize with Bartel's frustrations. There are a lot of systemic time sinks that ruin casual play.

In an effort to be self-sufficient in FFXIV, I wanted to level some crafting jobs up to repair my own gear. As 30THM/20CON, here are the jobs I need to level to repair my own DoM gear:

~ GLD (repairs most THM weapons)
~ CRP (repairs most CON weapons)
~ WVR (most of my gear is cloth)

Looking at the recipe lists and planning out how I was going to rank up those crafting jobs, I quickly realized that I would need a steady supply of shards and a lot of raw mats, so I would need to level up some additional jobs:

~ ALC (for the ability to turn fish into shards, and for the ability to break crystals into shards)
~ MIN (mats for GLD)
~ BOT (mats for WVR, CRP, and ALC)
~ FSH (since recent patch, low-level fish can be turned into shards)

Then I realized that my DoL and DoH tools were wearing out, so.....

~ BSM (for the ability to repair tools)

Wouldn't you know it, certain DoM gear is made of canvas, and canvas requires both WVR and LW. Some of my BiS crafting and gathering gears are made of leather too, so...

~ LW (for the ability to make and repair certain DoM / DoL / DoH gear)

Really SE? All I want to do is level my CON and THM. But in order to be self-sufficient and repair my own gear as CON or THM I need to level GLD, CRP, WVR, ALC, MIN, BOT, FSH, BSM, and LW? I haven't found a need yet for Culinarian, but I'm sure I've just over looked it.

Tell me what "casual" player has the time to level all of those jobs?

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 2:54pm by thejones
#115 Dec 28 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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If you have a hand full of friends you can all rank up one or two DoH and be able to repair each others' gear quiet easily. Plus, the repair icon for the retainers is really nice, while you are leveling up one job you can toss your gear needing repair onto your retainer and hopefully by time you are ready to use it you can grab it from your retainer and be on your way.

It is nice to be self sustaining, but this game is designed so that players have to rely on each other. That is just part of the game design. (I think it is a neat idea and much more sustainable with the changes to the retainer system).


Edited, Dec 28th 2010 4:14pm by Melila
#116 Dec 28 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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renmabiao wrote:

are you sure you are getting less than 100 for something -10 for armorer leves? I just tested on something that is -10, hempen tabard a lvl 12 synth, on my 22 weaver. got about 120+ sp. ok. my numbers are wrong for -10 levels. sorry for that but under 100sp?? Was your armorer fatigued?


Sorry, I phrased wrong. What I mean is a rank 10 synth at 24 will net me under 100 sp. That is why I don't pick them up, because they are pointless. So already I'm pigeonholed into doing ONLY r15+ leves, which there just aren't that many of.

renmabiao wrote:

I understand you can hit a bad reset patch sometimes, I've had them but on average you really do about 4-5 leves every reset around your level range. Something to improve on from SE, but not so disabling to me.


I feel like you must just get really lucky, because everyone I talk to in my shell is having the exact same issues as me. They hit about r20 on a craft, and all of a sudden the higher level leves dissappear. Whether it is coincidence or just SE trying to slow us down, I really don't know. But I can say with confidence that I have not gotten 4-5 r15+ synths on 1 craft in over 6 resets. It has happened, on the fluke day that LL has like 4 on its own and Uldah or Grid have 1-2, but is that really how I should have to level? Hope and pray that I get lucky with a good reset? Personally, that's not something I feel I should have to do in a game that is supposedly catering to a casual crowd.

Not to mention "around my level range" would be more like r20-25 leves, of which I've seen a total of 5 armorer leves in the past 6 resets.
Edited, Dec 28th 2010 3:17pm by BartelX

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 3:18pm by BartelX
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Bartel Hayward--- Ultros Server
The Kraken Club <ZAM>
50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
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#117 Dec 28 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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@Bartel

one thing i can definately agree on is the way crafting leves are done.

Right now this is what ive noticed with them

Each city has 5 leves for each craft available EVERY CYCLE, if its the crafts home city it gets 8(with the exception of leatherworking which seems to be 5 in every city regardless)

Every craft has a set level 1 leve in these 5-8 they get each day. It is usualy named Momodis XXXX slippers or whatever in a pattern like that.

Every other leve, has a random chance to spawn as 2-3 different levels.

So lets say theres one to make planks for carpentry.
It may spawn as maple planks(level 1) or oak plans(level 25) in a given day. that chance is totaly random though.
The next leve may be to make shields, again, could be a level 1 shield, or a level 15 shield leve.

every now and then youll notice(especialy if you are not 20+ in a craft yet) that the 8 leves you normal see, are less....this is because a level spawned at a higher level then you can accept.


Now the solution to this is obvious, they need to add more crafting leves that ONLY spawn at a higher level, say 25/40 ones and so on to give us those options to do them for exp too.

ALso if I may point out, having multiple crafts makes the leves go alot faster on a given day, I have all my crafts at 20+ and I get the ability to do all 15+ leves in a single city divided among them daily. Now while this may not do me any good to focus any 1 craft up, it does give me a ton of exp between them to where they are all leveling regardless of wether im working on leveling a specific craft at that time or not(i also get to gather guild marks among them all in the process too).

Last, as far as the shard/crystal issue, I found that a bit of farming, and making sure every crafter has alchemy in order to break crystals into shards, helps a ton. You have no idea.(and if you level it enough clusters into crystals which really helps the shards count)

As far as story quests, and people mentioning how we dont get them often enough, let me also state there is more then just the "main" storyline.

There are 18 quests at level 20 beyond that main, 18 more at 30, 18 more at 36......all obtainable through the various jobs, and all of them are actual storylines that go along with said class.
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#118 Dec 28 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Decent
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In light of a few people mentioning that killing red mobs in group play (5+) is broken, I have some good news.

I just took 6 players rank 20-24 out to kill rank 40-44 mobs (red) in a standard exp party setup. 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 DD. This was to test if SP really was "broken".

We brought food, used regimens, and had fully repaired gear.

The results:

In 1 hour we gained 8k SP.
We had 5 deaths and 1 disconnect.

Killing RED monsters is NOT effective SP per hour, because they hit too hard and 1 shot players. RED mobs post patch are NOT meant to be killed for SP grinding.

Killing in groups of 5+ however IS effective leveling, players just need to go kill monsters of appropriate level. Instead of rank 40-44 mobs, we should have gone and killed rank 36-40 mobs and I am confident that we would have achieved 10k+ with no deaths.

I hope these results help.
#119 Dec 28 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Somewhat on subject, my new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9kZiLqXr9E

Levequest effectiveness, Choosing the right leves.
#120 Dec 28 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Somewhat on subject, my new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9kZiLqXr9E

Levequest effectiveness, Choosing the right leves.


If i had the sowftware to do vids id do the crafting end, I found a very very effective way of doing them myself.
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#121 Dec 28 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Somewhat on subject, my new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9kZiLqXr9E

Levequest effectiveness, Choosing the right leves.


Another great video. I have been doing the same situation 2 bloodshore, 3 cass hollow, 3 cedar regardless of gil/marks to be honest. But what I totally forgot about is the 1 anima port between the camps. That alone would save 20-30 minutes in the course of just one leve cycle.

The one difference between your leve playstyle and mine is you don't pick up leves that are less than 10k gil for the most part. But what about the sp? In your opinion is it worth it to totally ignore the leve even for the sp gain that you get off the monsters. A leve based monster always gives me more sp than a mob i'm grinding on even at 1 star I thought. Once again thanks for helping a noob like me.
#122 Dec 28 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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RoyalBrayden wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
Somewhat on subject, my new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9kZiLqXr9E

Levequest effectiveness, Choosing the right leves.


Another great video. I have been doing the same situation 2 bloodshore, 3 cass hollow, 3 cedar regardless of gil/marks to be honest. But what I totally forgot about is the 1 anima port between the camps. That alone would save 20-30 minutes in the course of just one leve cycle.

The one difference between your leve playstyle and mine is you don't pick up leves that are less than 10k gil for the most part. But what about the sp? In your opinion is it worth it to totally ignore the leve even for the sp gain that you get off the monsters. A leve based monster always gives me more sp than a mob i'm grinding on even at 1 star I thought. Once again thanks for helping a noob like me.


something people dont think about that your bringing up

Yes the monster gives more SP, but, you must now travel to and kill that monster specificaly inthe time limit, which means your not at a grinding spot earning SP.
the time you spent going out of the way for some of these mobs is actualy causing you to level slower.
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#123 Dec 28 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
If you have a hand full of friends you can all rank up one or two DoH and be able to repair each others' gear quiet easily. Plus, the repair icon for the retainers is really nice, while you are leveling up one job you can toss your gear needing repair onto your retainer and hopefully by time you are ready to use it you can grab it from your retainer and be on your way.

It is nice to be self sustaining, but this game is designed so that players have to rely on each other. That is just part of the game design. (I think it is a neat idea and much more sustainable with the changes to the retainer system).


This is very true, and I'm fortunate to be a member of several linkshells with some very accomplished crafter's that are very generous with their time and mats and will gladly repair my stuff anytime I ask. That being said...in the spirit of rugged individualism, I don't want to rely on anyone for anything in-game.

As a casual gamer with very limited playtime, I don't have the luxury of standing around with "repair" flag up, or spamming in town / @ camp, or bothering shell mates and traveling around the game world to meet them for repairs. I don't want to spend my very limited time in Eorzea running those kinds of errands, I just want to repair my own sh*t on my time and get on with it.

I know it's an MMO and relying on each other for stuff fosters the in-game community, etc. etc., but I'd like to be able to wipe my own a$$... I'm not asking to be able to solo endgame raid bosses or repair endgame gear flawlessly as a rank 1 crafter. I just want to be able to repair my rank 21 cloth armor and rank 21 weapon without having to level nine other jobs that I'm not interested in playing and without wasting 100+ hours on in-game activities that I don't find enjoyable. Is that asking too much?

The simple (naive) decision of "I want to be able to repair my own gear" has sent me down a rabbit hole of crafting that casual gamers like myself can't get out of.
#124 Dec 28 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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RoyalBrayden wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
Somewhat on subject, my new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9kZiLqXr9E

Levequest effectiveness, Choosing the right leves.


Another great video. I have been doing the same situation 2 bloodshore, 3 cass hollow, 3 cedar regardless of gil/marks to be honest. But what I totally forgot about is the 1 anima port between the camps. That alone would save 20-30 minutes in the course of just one leve cycle.

The one difference between your leve playstyle and mine is you don't pick up leves that are less than 10k gil for the most part. But what about the sp? In your opinion is it worth it to totally ignore the leve even for the sp gain that you get off the monsters. A leve based monster always gives me more sp than a mob i'm grinding on even at 1 star I thought. Once again thanks for helping a noob like me.



If your goal is SP, then defiantly grab the leves.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 5:18pm by DoctorMog
#125 Dec 28 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Vedis wrote:
RoyalBrayden wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
Somewhat on subject, my new video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9kZiLqXr9E

Levequest effectiveness, Choosing the right leves.


Another great video. I have been doing the same situation 2 bloodshore, 3 cass hollow, 3 cedar regardless of gil/marks to be honest. But what I totally forgot about is the 1 anima port between the camps. That alone would save 20-30 minutes in the course of just one leve cycle.

The one difference between your leve playstyle and mine is you don't pick up leves that are less than 10k gil for the most part. But what about the sp? In your opinion is it worth it to totally ignore the leve even for the sp gain that you get off the monsters. A leve based monster always gives me more sp than a mob i'm grinding on even at 1 star I thought. Once again thanks for helping a noob like me.


something people dont think about that your bringing up

Yes the monster gives more SP, but, you must now travel to and kill that monster specificaly inthe time limit, which means your not at a grinding spot earning SP.
the time you spent going out of the way for some of these mobs is actualy causing you to level slower.


Leves are more about the reward than the SP, but they do give more SP per kill than normal mobs, plus guardian aspect helps add 30% if im not mistaken, so it -almost- evens out.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 5:08pm by DoctorMog
#126 Dec 28 2010 at 4:10 PM Rating: Good
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****, someone is karma camping me again =(
#127 Dec 28 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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thejones wrote:

The simple (naive) decision of "I want to be able to repair my own gear" has sent me down a rabbit hole of crafting that casual gamers like myself can't get out of.


This may be true... if you want to be self-sufficient, then you, well... have to be self-sufficient... which means putting in the time to learn the crafts.

That said, no one is *forcing* you to craft.

You could have the repair NPC fix your gear... or find someone else to do it. Yes, you have to concede your ability to repair your own gear, but this is the tradeoff. Spend more time and be self-sustained, or don't and have to rely on other in-game mechanisms.

As it turns out, crafting (especially from R1-10) isn't all that hard, and if you do it right, pays for itself. You can reach rank 5 of any craft class with 3 R1 local leves. Grinding 5-10 is easily done and takes about 1-2 hours.

Until you reach higher levels (at which point you're probably not 'casual' anymore), R10 crafts will allow you to repair gear R20 or lower.

So keep your crafts 10 ranks below your main DoW/M and you're set... not too much to ask in my opinion. Crafting also is the easiest way to drive Physical XP, so your battle classes will be stronger if you decide to level crafts!
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#128 Dec 28 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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volta1 wrote:
thejones wrote:

The simple (naive) decision of "I want to be able to repair my own gear" has sent me down a rabbit hole of crafting that casual gamers like myself can't get out of.


This may be true... if you want to be self-sufficient, then you, well... have to be self-sufficient... which means putting in the time to learn the crafts.

That said, no one is *forcing* you to craft.

You could have the repair NPC fix your gear... or find someone else to do it. Yes, you have to concede your ability to repair your own gear, but this is the tradeoff. Spend more time and be self-sustained, or don't and have to rely on other in-game mechanisms.

As it turns out, crafting (especially from R1-10) isn't all that hard, and if you do it right, pays for itself. You can reach rank 5 of any craft class with 3 R1 local leves. Grinding 5-10 is easily done and takes about 1-2 hours.

Until you reach higher levels (at which point you're probably not 'casual' anymore), R10 crafts will allow you to repair gear R20 or lower.

So keep your crafts 10 ranks below your main DoW/M and you're set... not too much to ask in my opinion. Crafting also is the easiest way to drive Physical XP, so your battle classes will be stronger if you decide to level crafts!


Well put!
#129 Dec 28 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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I leveled from 30 to 32 today in about 4 hours doing. I started off by grabbing 6 r30 leves and headed to cedarwood where it was about time for a Behest. I joined a full party for the Behest and once it was done about 9 or 10 of the people had leves and stayed. We proceeded to do the leves on 4-5 stars and I got as much as 290SP per mob on some leve-links. We stopped and did the behests every hour and went to cassio after and did everyones leves there. Each time we did a behest we got new people that also had leves and kept this momentum for 4 hours until I had to go to work.

I have yet to see a "wall". FFXIV is in alot of ways different from other MMORPG but as far as leveling goes I don't see at as being slower than any of them. In some cases I see it being easier to level if you have a group that knows what they are doing. One thing I see that could really be improved upon is the party function. Right now (my above experience being an example) it seems that getting in a good group has to be a stroke of luck, or a well organized LS that organize party times and such.

For people that do not like to party, FFXIV is really no different than any other MMO, You are going to level slower alone than you would with a group. I recall in FFXI that soloing past 15 was unheard of really, and if you did choose to solo it was understood that you were not going to be leveling as fast as the people partying in the Dunes.

I guess my point here is that I don't understand what the problem is.

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#130 Dec 28 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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[********************, someone is karma camping me again =([/quote]

I think the balance of power has shifted in this thread as you have now regained Sage. I would guess I'm not the only one that appreciates your efforts here.

Thanks for all the relevant info Doc!
#131 Dec 28 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
As you gain more skills, and level up closer to 50 (and gain more stat points) you can then take on stronger monsters because you do substantially more damage and are far more effective by knowing the skills that are good against certain mobs and having those skills equipped.

For instance, right NOW its Coblyns or bust, but we have been making the move to puks recently because most of us have a good assortment of slashing skills from other classes and enough STR and DEX that they are good to grind on.

I see later on down the road, the weakness of each monster type will be known, players will have enough stat points to swing themselves into effective range to kill them faster, and many many more camps will open up as great exp because a certain set of skills will be super effective against the monsters at that camp.

Edited, Dec 27th 2010 3:50pm by DoctorMog


I agree completely.

I don't do a lot of grinding on my combat classes outside of behest, leves and farming, but I see tremendous potential in terms of prey, especially give the fact that even in parties it is worthwhile looking for prey that gives good SP AND the drops you want.
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#132 Dec 28 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
In light of a few people mentioning that killing red mobs in group play (5+) is broken, I have some good news.

I just took 6 players rank 20-24 out to kill rank 40-44 mobs (red) in a standard exp party setup. 1 tank, 1 healer, 4 DD. This was to test if SP really was "broken".

We brought food, used regimens, and had fully repaired gear.

The results:

In 1 hour we gained 8k SP.
We had 5 deaths and 1 disconnect.

Killing RED monsters is NOT effective SP per hour, because they hit too hard and 1 shot players. RED mobs post patch are NOT meant to be killed for SP grinding.

Killing in groups of 5+ however IS effective leveling, players just need to go kill monsters of appropriate level. Instead of rank 40-44 mobs, we should have gone and killed rank 36-40 mobs and I am confident that we would have achieved 10k+ with no deaths.

I hope these results help.


Ok, here's my problem. Go do that at rank 30+. Kill some orange to red mobs at THAT level and tell me your results. I'll tell you mine: even less sp in a group, and kills take too long to even come CLOSE to competing with the tried and true coblyn massacre. I want something that feels at least remotely challenging while still being rewarding and I really don't find that currently. I can make stuff challenging, but if I do that it seems I'm rewarded LESS than if I just made it easy. Anyone can farm doblyns for hours on end for sp... I want to fight harder stuff and be rewarded for doing it, not punished comparatively.
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#133 Dec 28 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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My problem isn't the SP system. its the mob quantity/respawn times.

At 45, leves give me a good sum of SP, its true. If I want to get that bit of extra SP however (and don't want to do it grinding doblyns), the limited mobs I can chose from either take too long to respawn (toads, peiste) or are just not enough for more than 2-3 groups, across the entire world map.

Right now server populace is low so I make do, but its going to be a problem. Also I would love it if the game promoted parties a little more.
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#134 Dec 28 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Tell me what "casual" player has the time to level all of those jobs?
I think this is part of what's wrong with the game. SE has tried to cater to the WoW community by trying to make it casual. They have obviously not performed well in that respect. Then, there's the FFXI community that was hoping this would be an MMO. SE ruined that aspect by trying to make it casual/soloable. So they have two different communities unhappy with the game.
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#135 Dec 28 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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I personally feel that, all else equal, a lot of these problems/pain points would be alleviated or at least mitigated by 1) removing the fatigue system and 2) increasing the amount of leves that can be accepted during a reset (36?).
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#136 Dec 28 2010 at 10:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I empathize with the players that just 'want to repair their own stuff'. I started out that way also and ended up leveling all the crafts, it is fortunate that I enjoy the crafting.

However, let's look forward at what can be done 'now',

: put damaged stuff at the menders ward with good gil rewards
: shout for crafters at the appropriate guilds for repairs with good gil rewards.
: have 2 sets of armor and 3 weapon sets. Gear is quite cheap now, shouldn't be a problem.
: distribute crafts among LS mates. This is what my ls did. Works for us so far.

So far the prices that gets repairs real fast would be anything between 5k-10k for gear 30+, if you put 1k... you may have to wait a long time.

My suggestion to SE is to split up craft level and repair level and allow players to repair up to +20, +30 levels up with repair npc buff. However, only if the craft level is within a 'certain range' can the item be repaired up to 100%.

#137 Dec 28 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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renmabiao wrote:
I empathize with the players that just 'want to repair their own stuff'. I started out that way also and ended up leveling all the crafts, it is fortunate that I enjoy the crafting.

However, let's look forward at what can be done 'now',

: put damaged stuff at the menders ward with good gil rewards
: shout for crafters at the appropriate guilds for repairs with good gil rewards.
: have 2 sets of armor and 3 weapon sets. Gear is quite cheap now, shouldn't be a problem.
: distribute crafts among LS mates. This is what my ls did. Works for us so far.

So far the prices that gets repairs real fast would be anything between 5k-10k for gear 30+, if you put 1k... you may have to wait a long time.

My suggestion to SE is to split up craft level and repair level and allow players to repair up to +20, +30 levels up with repair npc buff. However, only if the craft level is within a 'certain range' can the item be repaired up to 100%.




dont think repairs are as much an issue anymore as a ton of people have gotten their crafts up high enough now to repair a majority of gear

the main people still having repair issues are those refusing to pay for them at all, today for example, i repaired about 50 pieces of gear, and flat out refused well over 100 more, based on prices

if you have high gear, the least you can do is compensate for materials, but most people dont even want to do that, all too often i see silver repairs for 300-500 gil, electrum for 100gil, and so on, especialy when it comes to goldsmithing repairs i see people beign really stingy, and then they get mad cuz no one repairs them

but at their level, they are making so much what does a few k more gil to repair the gear matter? thats what i am still not understanding
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#138 Dec 28 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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Dr.Mog is right on this thread for issues about the wall. After the amazing crunch at 20 I put off leveling my jobs past it for combat. I've begun to level again and am now quite pleased that I gained nearly 5 levels of very very light play in the span of two days.

Is it a big deal? Depends on whether or not you want to call SP broken. Seems SP has been shifted quite a bit, but while I was always a proponent of higher SP gains similar to the pre 20s it is not so bad as I first experienced. Iron Coblyns are meant for 27-30 range players and not even a month ago we were spouting on about coblyn extermination. For reasons shown here that doesn't follow suit for all classes.

SP may have been spot on with the patch, but it is because they have better resources and knowledge. Perhaps we have just been choosing really bad camps and enemy types. Ala FFXI style. Just because Coblyn are easy doesn't justify leveling 40 levels on them when they step up so greatly.

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#139 Dec 28 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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Corthaemus wrote:
Quote:
Tell me what "casual" player has the time to level all of those jobs?
I think this is part of what's wrong with the game. SE has tried to cater to the WoW community by trying to make it casual. They have obviously not performed well in that respect. Then, there's the FFXI community that was hoping this would be an MMO. SE ruined that aspect by trying to make it casual/soloable. So they have two different communities unhappy with the game.


The thing is, if you don't want to cater to the wow community, don't bother. We saw what happened to vanguard and Age of Conan, the lsat 2 games to try and deviate from the 'wow model'. The non-wow MMO community as far as NA and EU, is concerned is not large enough to support a game that cost as much as FFXI did.
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#140 Dec 28 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I can see where someone with small chunks of playtime can feel as though they aren't making progress. Hopefully players start taking a closer look at the progress they really ARE making in each play session.

I always write down what my SP is at when I start my play session, and then I write down what time I started. It helps me see how far I move in 1 gaming session. Sometimes it tough to notice because we can change classes so often XD

But really, look at the guy above my post, his highest rank is pretty low, but he has nearly 2 rank 20's and 8 jobs over rank 10! That IS progress! Might not seem like it, but that takes some serious time!

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 12:16am by DoctorMog
#141 Dec 28 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
dont think repairs are as much an issue anymore as a ton of people have gotten their crafts up high enough now to repair a majority of gear

the main people still having repair issues are those refusing to pay for them at all, today for example, i repaired about 50 pieces of gear, and flat out refused well over 100 more, based on prices

if you have high gear, the least you can do is compensate for materials, but most people dont even want to do that, all too often i see silver repairs for 300-500 gil, electrum for 100gil, and so on, especialy when it comes to goldsmithing repairs i see people beign really stingy, and then they get mad cuz no one repairs them

but at their level, they are making so much what does a few k more gil to repair the gear matter? thats what i am still not understanding


hehe, that is very common for me too. Sometimes I would tell them about the repair costs and I get mixed reactions. One would be an immediate readjustment so I can fix it, the other extreme would be insults thrown in my face for being a cutthroat.

The latter normally would adjust to my recommended prices when they realize they just spent 3hrs on wasted raging. It can take considerable patience from the crafter though, but, at least to me, 1 more player is educated on the cost of things in this game. Players just aren't used to having gear that needs to be maintained in an MMO.




#142 Dec 28 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
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repairs are a lot better these days, esp with the new menders ward. There are thankfully more than a few people who understand that repairing for anything higher than the mats cost is a good thing, and aren't holding out for 75% of NPC cost.

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#143 Dec 28 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:

But really, look at the guy above my post, his highest rank is pretty low, but he has nearly 2 rank 20's and 8 jobs over rank 10! That IS progress! Might not seem like it, but that takes some serious time!


See this is the thing... it really doesn't. The first 10 ranks in this game are absolute fluff. They can be done in a matter of 2 hours. Go to any lowbie camp you want, attack anything that moves, you'll be rank 10 in no time flat. Or ****, go do 2-3 r1 leves and 2-3 r10 leves... you'll probably be OVER r10. Heck, even getting to rank 15 is a breeze. Rank 15-20 is a little slower, but really not all that much. I have glad 34, con 20, thm 20, mrd 20, and all other DoM 10+. I did most of those in a matter of hours. Heck, in a three hour session today I took MRD from 16-20. It takes almost 3 times that long for me to get ONE rank now on GLD. I'm only level 34. At 45, I need almost double my current SP each rank. I don't want to spend 10 hours soloing coblyns every level. I want to enjoy the game, but don't want to be penalized for doing so.
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#144 Dec 28 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a MMO

I don't know what else to say.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 12:33am by DoctorMog
#145 Dec 29 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's an extremely boring MMO

I don't know what else to say.


Fixed.

Seriously OP-- it seems like you've reached the conclusion that many of us did long ago. This game in its current state is for masochists and the easily amused. It's not the more casual game a lot of us hoped it would be, nor is it the more challenging, tactical game that a lot of us hoped it would be (in fairness to our hopes, these were things that were advertised).

My earnest suggestion is that as much as you want this game to be good, go try some other games. There are plenty of F2P games that are much more rewarding per time invested. Meanwhile, keep your eye on this one and hope the promised improvements are delivered.

Personally, I was very critical of the progression pace in FFXI, and it's the same thing here. Tons of jobs-- excruciating just to cap one. I think XI is actually improved now in that regard by a fair margin, and hopefully XIV will follow suit.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#146 Dec 29 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
It's a MMO

I don't know what else to say.


That pretty much says enough right there. I've actually played other MMO's. I didn't find a single one as frustrating as I find ffxiv, and that's including ffxi, WoW, lotro, ddo and a few others. At least in those other games I was actually rewarded for trying to fight harder mobs. So far, the same certainly cannot be said for ffxiv... =/
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#147 Dec 29 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Just keep rating down every one of my posts, you do that.

Truth is there ARE people who like this game.

It is REALLY too bad that the people with the worst opinions are the ones that yell the loudest.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:29am by DoctorMog
#148 Dec 29 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Just keep rating down every one of my posts, you do that.

Truth is there ARE people who like this game.

It is REALLY too bad that the people with the worst opinions are the ones that yell the loudest.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:29am by DoctorMog



sad truth too about them being the loudest

i remember STOs release, there was a massive 50,000 post hate thread, where almost all 50,000 posts were the same 20 people, made it seem so much worse then it was
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#149 Dec 29 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Just keep rating down every one of my posts, you do that.

Truth is there ARE people who like this game.

It is REALLY too bad that the people with the worst opinions are the ones that yell the loudest.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:29am by DoctorMog


You're absolutely right, there are people like that this game. The question is, are there enough to make a 50-100+ Million Dollar project a success and sustain it for 5 or 10 years? The dissenters may have the worst opinion from your perspective, but all that really matters is whether they constitute a majority or minority.
#150 Dec 29 2010 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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By now the only thing showing to me is...yeah SP is broken to some degree...but what's really broken is the ZAM Community once again, which pretty much always was broken during the FFXI days...it's sad...it seems like 70% of the community here is just here to tell everyone how bad FFXIV is and why people shouldn't play it.

There are people trying to give advice and try to show people ways to still get decent progress(for example when I explained how you can do Leves efficiently on Rank 30+ in another thread) and all you get is rate downs...

The even more sad thing about this is, me still lurking around here cause this is still and prolly ever will be the biggest community for FFXIV...I'm just a sad panda...I for once know will prolly never ever try to give peolpe advice or show ways to get things done with having more "fun", cause simply it's just not appreciated at all. I've got better things to waste my time on, then trying to help ignorant pricks, who are yelling how ****** something is, when at the same time they show no interest in doing it in a way thats not ******...
#151 Dec 29 2010 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
By now the only thing showing to me is...yeah SP is broken to some degree...but what's really broken is the ZAM Community once again, which pretty much always was broken during the FFXI days...it's sad...it seems like 70% of the community here is just here to tell everyone how bad FFXIV is and why people shouldn't play it.

There are people trying to give advice and try to show people ways to still get decent progress(for example when I explained how you can do Leves efficiently on Rank 30+ in another thread) and all you get is rate downs...

The even more sad thing about this is, me still lurking around here cause this is still and prolly ever will be the biggest community for FFXIV...I'm just a sad panda...I for once know will prolly never ever try to give peolpe advice or show ways to get things done with having more "fun", cause simply it's just not appreciated at all. I've got better things to waste my time on, then trying to help ignorant pricks, who are yelling how sh*tty something is, when at the same time they show no interest in doing it in a way thats not sh*tty...


Agreed.

But "seems like 70%" COULD only be 5%.


Edited, Dec 29th 2010 7:15pm by DoctorMog
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