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#152 Dec 29 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Just keep rating down every one of my posts, you do that.

Truth is there ARE people who like this game.

It is REALLY too bad that the people with the worst opinions are the ones that yell the loudest.


Keep making more assumptions, you do that. I've actually only rated down 2 of your posts. The first was one of the earlier posts in the thread because I thought it was rather rude, and this last one because you made a ridiculous assumption. I've also rated UP about 30 of them in this thread that have been helpful or posted useful information.

Truth is, I like the game. I'm sorry if I don't have blinders on like some people about it who think that anyone who comments on something they don't like has the "worst opinion". News flash, there are things in this game that are frustrating for a LOT of people. I'm glad that you think it's so fantastic as is, but I personally think it still needs some more fine-tuning. Does that mean I don't like the game? No. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it, DESPITE the frustrations I have. But the only way we're going to see it evolve and become a better product is through feedback. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.

Btw, I love how my "opinion" is magically the "worst". Do you realize how arrogant that sounds? I don't mind if you disagree with me, but to call my opinion worse than yours is just unbelievably hypocritical. It's an opinion. It's not right or wrong, no matter how much you want to think it is.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 10:23am by BartelX
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#153 Dec 29 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Default
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Opinions are one thing guys, but could we keep the bickering to a minimum? It's getting annoying.

Thank you, drive through.
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#154 Dec 29 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Just keep rating down every one of my posts, you do that.

Truth is there ARE people who like this game.

It is REALLY too bad that the people with the worst opinions are the ones that yell the loudest.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:29am by DoctorMog


It is also true that there are a lot of people who WANT to like this game and want to improve their game play experience along with others' by pointing out its flaws and venting out their frustrations. Just because someone is frustrated and wants something to be made more manageable doesn't mean they don't like the game or deserve to be blindly rated down just because they aren't going to kiss SE's feet for letting us play the game in its current state.

Admittedly, I am one of those people. I want to like this game. I want to tell everyone what a kick *** and wonderful game this is. But the plain and simple fact is, it's not wonderful and it certainly doesn't kick ***. Will it be wonderful and kick *** in the near future? I sure hope so because then I can stop yelling and screaming at my computer and start having a fun and wonderful experience in game. A lot of times, people who have complaints about something find comfort by posting on the forums for a few reasons:

1) You can find comfort in knowing you are not alone and other people are just as frustrated as you are with issue A.
2) Hearing other people's opinion can sometimes lead to a solution or at least some way to ease your frustrations and make them more tolerable for a while.
3) Sometimes, the magical power of complaining about something can all of a sudden fix the problem temporarily. I know one time, I posted something angry and let off a lot of steam and frustration only to return to FFXIV and suddenly have a complete 180 reversal in luck.

Now, to go slightly back on topic regarding SP:

Some people think that taking on stronger mobs for more challenge is more fun than killing little bitty mobs relatively safely in mass quantities. The problem is that with the way FFXIV currently handles SP and how higher level monsters work, the risk is ridiculously higher than the reward that you get. Your own testing with getting... I forget how much? 20k? per hour just plowing through coblyns vs getting 8k per hour on red mobs with 5 deaths and 1 DC is evidence of that.

Why can the SP system not accommodate both styles of play? You may think grinding on weak little mobs for SP is fun and acceptable game play. But not everyone does. There should be a way to compromise somehow, surely? I'm only R20, so I haven't really seen much of this first hand, but I was in a small trio in Nanawa grinding on puks as THM and I can say I didn't find it very fun. The mobs died too quickly and all I could really do was spam heals and toss in a few buffs when I could. Am I wrong to want fights that last a little longer, are a bit more challenging and still get relatively the same SP/hr?

Perhaps calling the system "broken" is a little strong, but if enough people believe that something is not working as it should be working, doesn't that imply that it is broken in some way? Can you, with confidence, say that your way of leveling is the way that S-E intended us to level?

I'm going to stop typing in a minute, I promise. But just think about this...

When you want to go level with 1 or 2 close friends, you can pick up and go grind weak mobs for a couple hours and get X SP. Later, when more friends come on, you can ALL get together, go to more challenging mobs and grind less of them in the same amount of time, but get more SP and still make... around X SP in the same couple of hours. Isn't that... a GOOD thing?! Isn't it GOOD that I have more options instead of less? Doesn't that sound a little better than: I gotta grind here till lvl X with 4 people then I can't group with 4 people anymore, I have to do it with 2 or 3 people till level X+5 then I have to solo here until X+9 when I can finally go to a new place with 4 more people until level.... See what I mean?
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#155 Dec 29 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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What gets me about the whole " Casual" vs. "Hardcore" arguement is that the "Casuals" want a game in which they can casually get their character(s) to max level in a short amount of time....casually. If they cannot do that, they claim that the game is not casual friendly.

I dont get this mentality. Why do you feel you need to be max level and have all of the best items to enjoy the game? Do you want to have all of the same items and skills/levels that the hardcore people have even though you havnt put in the same time? Where is the reward for the hardcore people if no matter how much they play, they cannot distinguish themselves above others?

I am not hardcore, but if I ever do get a job to level 50, I dont want the accomplishment to be cheapened because SE caved to the "Casuals" and turned FFXIV into a WOW clone. On the other hand, the declining player base issue needs to be fixed. If making SP easier fixes the decling player base issue then I guess that is what SE will have to do. In my opinion all they need to do to fix that issue is to add fun content. If there were distractions along the way, the grind wouldnt seem as bad.

Example: Jboots from Everquest - Kill the ancient cyclops to get a quest item. Do a quest to get Jboots. Jboots gave a player a run speed boost. In early everquest days, if you were able to actually kill the ancient cyclops and do the quest for the Jboots...Your epeen grew 5 sizes...you were awesome...everyone envied you....you had accomplished a major game milestone. This is the type of distraction that makes games fun.

/shrug
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#156 Dec 29 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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GemaJamison wrote:
What gets me about the whole " Casual" vs. "Hardcore" arguement is that the "Casuals" want a game in which they can casually get their character(s) to max level in a short amount of time....casually. If they cannot do that, they claim that the game is not casual friendly.



I would identify as a hardcore casual player... I do some big ole grinding every little while - but I am not super high ranked despite playing for months already.

The SP curve doesn't bug me. It really doesn't. My definition of casual is "most of the content is accessible (though it will take longer) to an ordinary player who can't play on a schedule."

It totally doesn't bother me that some players will have +3 boots of *********** and I won't. I really couldn't give a ****. But if I needed to party to advance (like I did in XI) I wouldn't find that casual because it means you either play for 3-8 hours or don't play at all.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#157 Dec 29 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:

I would identify as a hardcore casual player... I do some big ole grinding every little while - but I am not super high ranked despite playing for months already.

The SP curve doesn't bug me. It really doesn't. My definition of casual is "most of the content is accessible (though it will take longer) to an ordinary player who can't play on a schedule."

It totally doesn't bother me that some players will have +3 boots of *********** and I won't. I really couldn't give a ****. But if I needed to party to advance (like I did in XI) I wouldn't find that casual because it means you either play for 3-8 hours or don't play at all.



To be honest, I agree. Even though I suggest an SP change it's not for SP itself, rather it's a substitute for the lack of current content. WoW's grind is almost exactly the same as FFXIV's; sure Coblyns are more squishy, but in terms of EXP gain (solo) you're better off fighting a mob within your level range. Any mob outside of that range and your efficiency goes down the drain.

I too am casual/hardcore, I play a lot on weekends and only a little during the week. Now I'm on vacation and I'm trying out different things. In the end I just want to see more meaningful carrots along the way. I'd love to have +3 boots of whatever, but make them level 15 so I can enjoy level 15 more.

I'm going to write up a post in the feedback forum regarding things like leves and how there needs to be a drastic shift in their implementation, in short, I'd like to see linear quests(leves) with (no joke) at least 50-60 leves per Aetheryte...stay tuned.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 3:19pm by Kierk
#158 Dec 29 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


I would identify as a hardcore casual player... I do some big ole grinding every little while - but I am not super high ranked despite playing for months already.

The SP curve doesn't bug me. It really doesn't. My definition of casual is "most of the content is accessible (though it will take longer) to an ordinary player who can't play on a schedule."

It totally doesn't bother me that some players will have +3 boots of *********** and I won't. I really couldn't give a ****. But if I needed to party to advance (like I did in XI) I wouldn't find that casual because it means you either play for 3-8 hours or don't play at all.


I agree with you. I think that it many people want what they want and want it now. I was always taught you should earn what you get. That means if you want to be the best player on the basketball team then you have to practice several hours every day. If you just want to play some pickup games on the weekend, don't expect to necessarily be the best player there.

I don't have as much playtime as others so I don't level as fast.. doesn't mean I can't enjoy the time I do spend leveling instead of worrying about the people who are "beating" me as long as I'm advancing and having a blast doing it (which I currently am).
#159 Dec 29 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
Just keep rating down every one of my posts, you do that.

Truth is there ARE people who like this game.

It is REALLY too bad that the people with the worst opinions are the ones that yell the loudest.


Keep making more assumptions, you do that. I've actually only rated down 2 of your posts. The first was one of the earlier posts in the thread because I thought it was rather rude, and this last one because you made a ridiculous assumption. I've also rated UP about 30 of them in this thread that have been helpful or posted useful information.

Truth is, I like the game. I'm sorry if I don't have blinders on like some people about it who think that anyone who comments on something they don't like has the "worst opinion". News flash, there are things in this game that are frustrating for a LOT of people. I'm glad that you think it's so fantastic as is, but I personally think it still needs some more fine-tuning. Does that mean I don't like the game? No. I get a lot of enjoyment out of it, DESPITE the frustrations I have. But the only way we're going to see it evolve and become a better product is through feedback. I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way.

Btw, I love how my "opinion" is magically the "worst". Do you realize how arrogant that sounds? I don't mind if you disagree with me, but to call my opinion worse than yours is just unbelievably hypocritical. It's an opinion. It's not right or wrong, no matter how much you want to think it is.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 10:23am by BartelX


And the game just ain't getting any better if no one points out what's wrong with it. I enjoy the game and I see a lot of potential in it, and I you'd be surprised how long an MMO can thrive on potential alone.

However, the numbers don't lie: XIV's playerbase has dropped off dramatically since the launch of the game. Anyone who believes otherwise is lying to themselves, especially when Wada just literally RIPPED Tanaka out of the driver's seat for doing such an unbelievably bad job in managing this game.

Why do you think we're not paying to play? It's because we're playing a beta, a skeleton of a game instead of the real deal. The game is as barebones as they come right now. There is literally no actual "content" beyond leveling for the sake of leveling. They didn't even go out of their way to dress it up so it feels like we have anything else going on.

My primary objections to the game are as such:

1. Combat timing is completely backwards: I see the monster's health meter drop, and THEN my character performs the attack animation. This still isn't fixed and it's easily one of the more annoying aspects of this game. It makes it difficult to discern which attack did which damage, especially when you can interrupt special attack animations by pressing another attack key because your character is ACTUALLY idle at that time (since combat damage has already been dealt).

2. Steamrolling easy mobs is the best way to level. I watched Doc Mog's video and doing that for hours at a time is pretty much my definition of ****. And no, saying "It's an MMO. What do you expect?" ain't gonna cut it when we have plenty of hardcore MMOs that are capable of keeping combat and leveling interesting without relegating us to hitting the same two buttons from levels 1-30. And the other excuse of "it gets better as you level as you get more skills" is likewise nonsense: so the game is going to be hideously boring until level 30 when we finally get enough skills? GREAT plan, guys. What happens when 90% of the playerbase quits before making it to 30? Oops!

The game has potential, and I enjoy some aspects of it. Mostly selling crafted goods. They finally fixed the retainer system, as I can now actually get what I'm looking for when I go into the market wards. Now they just need to iron out the combat system as it's unfortunately the part of the game that's currently the most lacking right now.
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#160 Dec 29 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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As I've already mentioned, I'm not looking for it to be made easier, I'm looking for it to be made more rewarding and balanced. If you actually read my OP, you would realize that the LAST thing I want is a WoW clone. And Olorinus, I'm also not looking for them to nerf the solo content or something, I just want them to improve party play so that grinding coblyns or mobs like coblyns is not the only option for efficient SP gains.

And I respectfully disagree about the SP system being in any way similar to WoW. In WoW, I OFTEN fought mobs that were 3-4 levels above me successfully and found that it actually did net me the most sp (outside of randoms).

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 3:53pm by BartelX
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#161 Dec 29 2010 at 6:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
What gets me about the whole " Casual" vs. "Hardcore" arguement is that the "Casuals" want a game in which they can casually get their character(s) to max level in a short amount of time....casually. If they cannot do that, they claim that the game is not casual friendly.


For the people that still don't understand:
1) Making something take a LONG time does not make it challenging. Making something take SKILL is what makes it challenging. (i.e., you can be able to level to max in one day and still have a hardcore game if accomplishing that feat takes hardcore, expert skill).

2) People might not be so concerned with leveling more quickly if there were actually other content to enjoy. Right now, content consists of unlocking new abilities and killing new monsters, which at the very least requires one to actually level up.

3) What's wrong with wanting to cap one class with relative ease considering we're SUPPOSED to level MANY classes?

My bottom line: If after reaching level 50, you can look back on your career of killing a bunch of weak little monsters for hours on end without even very much risk of defeat, and feel like you've accomplished something-- get a more productive hobby. Personally, I can't think of many "accomplishments" that are less meaningful or worthy of pride. Anyone who doesn't value their time can do it.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:11pm by Kachi
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#162 Dec 29 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
And Olorinus, I'm also not looking for them to nerf the solo content or something, I just want them to improve party play so that grinding coblyns or mobs like coblyns is not the only option for efficient SP gains.


Yeah, I was responding to the person who asked why casuals wanted everything fast, cause I consider myself fairly casual and don't care about fast, really.

I agree - it would be nice for SE to tune up the SP from harder mobs - actually I would like it to happen for solo play as well.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#163 Dec 29 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
BartelX wrote:
And Olorinus, I'm also not looking for them to nerf the solo content or something, I just want them to improve party play so that grinding coblyns or mobs like coblyns is not the only option for efficient SP gains.


Yeah, I was responding to the person who asked why casuals wanted everything fast, cause I consider myself fairly casual and don't care about fast, really.

I agree - it would be nice for SE to tune up the SP from harder mobs - actually I would like it to happen for solo play as well.


Sorry Lux, I don't think you are what SE had in mind when touting the 'casual' player... just sayin'.
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#164 Dec 29 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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volta1 wrote:


Sorry Lux, I don't think you are what SE had in mind when touting the 'casual' player... just sayin'.


which is why I call myself "casual-hardcore" - I have a full time job (granted I get a LOT of vacation time) and a non-gamer girlfriend - so I don't play nearly as much as a hardcore player.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#165 Dec 29 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
For the people that still don't understand:
1) Making something take a LONG time does not make it challenging. Making something take SKILL is what makes it challenging. (i.e., you can be able to level to max in one day and still have a hardcore game if accomplishing that feat takes hardcore, expert skill).

2) People might not be so concerned with leveling more quickly if there were actually other content to enjoy. Right now, content consists of unlocking new abilities and killing new monsters, which at the very least requires one to actually level up.

3) What's wrong with wanting to cap one class with relative ease considering we're SUPPOSED to level MANY classes?

My bottom line: If after reaching level 50, you can look back on your career of killing a bunch of weak little monsters for hours on end without even very much risk of defeat, and feel like you've accomplished something-- get a more productive hobby. Personally, I can't think of many "accomplishments" that are less meaningful or worthy of pride. Anyone who doesn't value their time can do it.


Perfectly put. Voted UP! I could not have put it better myself.

On point #1: I think people give WoW a lot of crap, but it was actually a more "hardcore" MMO than many I've played, including Aion. Aion was nothing more than a beautiful grind-fest that basically ensured that the ONLY thing separating you from everything you could ever want in the game was time, and the instanced dungeons were ridiculously easy. in WoW, one wrong step in an instance and you wiped the party. Aggroing ONE extra mob could kill you (and often did). This meant that access to the best exp in the game came at the cost of being smart enough to not ***** up in instances, and I liked that.

XIV has potential here, too: I love the "skin of my teeth" fights where I'm rifling off heals as fast I as can (alternating between cure and sacrifice because I have both for non-stop healing), but sadly, these encounters give me LESS SP than if I was massacring easy mobs that die in seconds instead. The single unwavering rule of games is this: risk = reward. Even in PONG, hitting the ball with the middle of your paddle meant you would send a more predictable return but guaranteed a hit. Hitting it with the EDGE of your paddle meant returning it at a sharp angle, making it harder to return but risking missing the ball. Again, risk vs. reward, and once FFXIV gets it figured out, I'll be enjoying the combat aspect of the game a **** of a lot more.

On point #2: Absolutely true. What else is there to do but level a skill right now? We don't have any minigames, sidequests, pets, special titles, rare drops, rare quests, personal housing, guild housing, GM-events or world events. All we have are NMs, and I frankly haven't even seen one yet.

My theory is that SE is indeed intentionally nerfing our SP gain post 20 because they don't want PS3 players to enter a game where everyone is already maxed on everything and there's absolutely nothing left for them to do or try because someone else can already do it a thousand times better.
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#166 Dec 29 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
What gets me about the whole " Casual" vs. "Hardcore" arguement is that the "Casuals" want a game in which they can casually get their character(s) to max level in a short amount of time....casually. If they cannot do that, they claim that the game is not casual friendly.


For the people that still don't understand:
1) Making something take a LONG time does not make it challenging. Making something take SKILL is what makes it challenging. (i.e., you can be able to level to max in one day and still have a hardcore game if accomplishing that feat takes hardcore, expert skill).

2) People might not be so concerned with leveling more quickly if there were actually other content to enjoy. Right now, content consists of unlocking new abilities and killing new monsters, which at the very least requires one to actually level up.

3) What's wrong with wanting to cap one class with relative ease considering we're SUPPOSED to level MANY classes?

My bottom line: If after reaching level 50, you can look back on your career of killing a bunch of weak little monsters for hours on end without even very much risk of defeat, and feel like you've accomplished something-- get a more productive hobby. Personally, I can't think of many "accomplishments" that are less meaningful or worthy of pride. Anyone who doesn't value their time can do it.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:11pm by Kachi


Yes! This is exactly what I'm talking about! I want something challenging and rewarding. I can already look back on my 34 levels and realize that I've done very little that has challenged me, other than soloing leves at high difficulty or the occasional solo/duo behest. Don't get me wrong, I like that there is a lot of time for people to actually learn their job... but when all they are doing is soloing easy stuff because that's by far the best SP, it doesn't really teach them HOW to take down difficult content and work as a team. That was my favorite part about ffxi, and I truly hope it can be brought into this game.
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50 WAR • 50 MNK • 50 MIN • 50 GSM • 50 ARM • 50 LTW • 50 CUL • 50 WVR
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#167 Dec 29 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:

Yes! This is exactly what I'm talking about! I want something challenging and rewarding. I can already look back on my 34 levels and realize that I've done very little that has challenged me, other than soloing leves at high difficulty or the occasional solo/duo behest. Don't get me wrong, I like that there is a lot of time for people to actually learn their job... but when all they are doing is soloing easy stuff because that's by far the best SP, it doesn't really teach them HOW to take down difficult content and work as a team. That was my favorite part about ffxi, and I truly hope it can be brought into this game.


That is how it felt the first go around for me, low manning with the few people in my level range on pretty difficult mobs. But as hard as we tried to find a solid grind spot, it really came down to efts and raptors as the best way to level 30+. That was pretty disappointing. At least now I grind on mobs that are quick kills for a predictable amount of SP and provide our crafters with a steady stream of materials and crystals.

I Wouldn't say either of the SP systems have been broken, they just needed some tweaks regarding the values you get from partying and mob difficulty. That is really all I can find fault with.

An aside here that has been brought up throughout the thread, this game offers a very large amount of depth for your character. Probably more depth than any of the big MMOs ever. I can see how people get lost amongst the mass of things they feel they want/have to level. If you have limited play time stick to one or two jobs and just touch on other jobs with leves or behests. My LS has several "casuals" who have reached 50 on one job already. This is with 3ish hours a play a few days a week.

This thread has been an interesting read for me, a lot of intelligent input that you don't see in a lot of the more critical threads on forums. Kudos to everyone on not nerd raging about a game and offering up input that is meaningful.
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