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#52 Dec 29 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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denshigomi wrote:
If your computer meets the minimum system requirements for FFXIV, then the addition of an add-on system isn't going to have a perceptual impact on your system's performance.

I see big major problem withing the "bold" selection ;)

Well it meets minimum even standard system requirement's but not those set by SE but those set by me after tweaks and mods to run fullspeed ;)

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 3:07pm by EmiyaShirou
#53 Dec 29 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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i just want to be able to bind keyboard keys like "T" "G" "F" to macro commands.
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#54 Dec 29 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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MerylStryfe wrote:
denshigomi wrote:

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Do you really think it is masochistic to want everyone to play on an even playing field?

If everyone can use add-ons, then the playing field is even.


I agree with what you are saying for the most part, but not everyone will be able to have add-ons when the ps3 version is released. Its highly unlikely that ps3 players will be able to get add-ons unless S-E works out some way with sony to distribute them and have them coded for the ps3.

That is the primary reason why S-E always balked at add-ons for FFXI, it gave PC players a competitive advantage (knowing other party members TP%, recasts, etc). While that may not be as big of an issue in FFXIV (recast times by default FTW!) the fundamental problem is the same.


That's the issue. If SE can't provide a framework that allows addons to be easily ported between platforms and made available to everyone whether they play on PC or PS3, they can't really incorporate them into the game.

People have their own reasons for liking or disliking addons. Personally, I find a lot of the arguments against addons to be fundamentally ridiculous. It does require that the developers keep a close eye on what people are doing with those addons and be ready to step in and adjust (see also: break) addons that are undermining the game, but we've seen by now that people are going to use them whether the developer sanctions them or not. At least by supporting them and providing a framework under which they can be built and distributed appropriately, they preserve a chance to maintain a level playing field. SE is the one who insists on supporting consoles for MMOs. That's their headache to deal with and if they aren't prepared to deal with it, they might want to rethink their stance on the whole cross-platform issue.
#55 Dec 29 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Addons won't happen on the PS3 version. SE is already struggling to get the basic game to run on the thing, there is no way they'll let addons eat up even more of the small amount of memory they have to work with. They already said that memory was the issue why it was delayed the first time around.

If the PS3 doesn't get addons, the PC version won't either. They won't let the things be so uneven. If you get any sort of addon for the PC it'll be unofficial and unsupported, like the FFXI windower.

PS3 users are SOL. <SE>PS3 limitations and all.</SE>

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:13pm by zerohaste
#56 Dec 29 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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zerohaste wrote:
Addons won't happen on the PS3 version. SE is already struggling to get the basic game to run on the thing, there is no way they'll let addons eat up even more of the small amount of memory they have to work with. They already said that memory was the issue why it was delayed the first time around.

If the PS3 doesn't get addons, the PC version won't either. They won't let the things be so uneven. If you get any sort of addon for the PC it'll be unofficial and unsupported, like the FFXI windower.

PS3 users are SOL. <SE>PS3 limitations and all.</SE>

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:13pm by zerohaste


I only wish console companies would wake the f up and realize that by not allowing custom content to be made and freely distributed on their systems, they're only hurting themselves.
#57 Dec 29 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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zerohaste wrote:
Addons won't happen on the PS3 version. SE is already struggling to get the basic game to run on the thing, there is no way they'll let addons eat up even more of the small amount of memory they have to work with. They already said that memory was the issue why it was delayed the first time around.

If the PS3 doesn't get addons, the PC version won't either. They won't let the things be so uneven. If you get any sort of addon for the PC it'll be unofficial and unsupported, like the FFXI windower.

PS3 users are SOL. <SE>PS3 limitations and all.</SE>

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:13pm by zerohaste

You apparently missed the fact that SE said they would allow PC users to make custom UI add-ons. That part came straight from the proverbial horse's mouth. There's no reason not to believe it. One of the devs said it in an interview outlining the coming changes through the first major patch in 2011. Almost all the other changes that were talked about in that same interview have already been implemented.


Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:22pm by Jefro420
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#59 Dec 29 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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I didnt see this posted, some more english of this interview.

http://www.siliconera.com/2010/12/29/a-little-bit-about-the-new-director-of-final-fantasy-xiv/#


Quote:
Naoki Yoshida recently took charge and has the unenviable position as the newly appointed director of Final Fantasy XIV. He has a tough job ahead turning the game and, perhaps, most paramount the economy around.



Yoshida seems to have quite a bit of experience with online RPGs. Speaking with 4gamer, Yoshida said Diablo got him into the online RPG genre. He played it for about a year before moving on to Ultima Online, which Yoshida stuck with for two and a half years. During that time he started playing first person shooters like Unreal Tournament. He went back to Diablo when Diablo II and its expansion pack Lord of Destruction came out. Those kept him busy for another year and a half. Then he started Dark Age of Camelot, which he played for six years. Of course, Yoshidia says, he played Everquest and World of Warcraft too.



In 2004, Yoshidia joined Square Enix as they started focusing on HD console development. His first game was Dragon Quest Monster Battle Road, an arcade title, where his name appears in the credits.



"My train of thought is MMORPGs are like a theme park," Yoshida said prompting 4gamer to dig further. He explained that as an analogy theme park attractions are like content. You start with the basics like a roller coaster or a haunted house, from there you create a theme, and add many attractions or content. Yoshidia gave Disneyland as an example, which expanded with its own identity by building Cinderella’s Castle and Toontown.



Getting down to specifics and before expanding the proverbial park Yoshidia said a working economy is essential for a MMORPG. He’s aware the economy has problems too and as it is players are not properly motivated to continue playing.



Yoshidia, like many players, realizes there isn’t a quick fix, but he is confident quarter-by-quarter he can improve Final Fantasy XIV by opening lines of communication with the game’s community.


#60 Dec 29 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
denshigomi wrote:


Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Do you really think it is masochistic to want everyone to play on an even playing field?

If everyone can use add-ons, then the playing field is even.


Assuming that everyone wants the game to be dumbed down.



How are you making any sense at all? have you used addons in wow? do you even understand how they pen up a choice to set your UI the way you are most comfortable. It's not making the game "WoW Like" its building on the progress that others have done.

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#61 Dec 29 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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insanekangaroo wrote:
why didn't they put this man in the lead from the start?


Because players would be able to jump, swim, ride mounts, and run instanced dungeons to make lasting friendships from the get go and screams would be heard across the globe.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:10pm by GuardianFaith
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#62 Dec 29 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:

I've heard that they aren't really optional for anyone wanting to raid in WoW

>.>

I don't know myself because I haven't played that far in the game but I would honestly rather not have a situation like what people have described where people expect you to use addons and those addons do things like tell you how much hate you are getting and when to take two steps backwards or something.

I dunno, it is cool if some people like playing like that but I wouldn't like it if SE decided to open the floodgates for programs like that. I just wouldn't. Because people can say they are optional but if the community doing upper tier group based content decides that addons make things optimal or whatever .... you can be darn sure that they won't feel optional


I have raided at the highest level in WoW, and out of the tens of thousands of addons available, there's less than half a dozen that I would call mandatory. Depending on your class maybe only 1 or 2.

Edit:
Come to think of it, for any of my toons other than my healers, I really can't think of any addon that I would Need in order to effectively clear most of the endgame content.(pre-cataclysm that is, I don't play anymore)



Edited, Dec 29th 2010 6:00pm by KristoFurwalken
#63 Dec 29 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
I have raided at the highest level in WoW, and out of the tens of thousands of addons available, there's less than half a dozen that I would call mandatory. Depending on your class maybe only 1 or 2.


True story, I raided for a while with no addons. It's pretty easy to pull off, because the raid leader calls out what the boss is doing anyways.
#64 Dec 29 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:

I've heard that they aren't really optional for anyone wanting to raid in WoW

>.>

I don't know myself because I haven't played that far in the game but I would honestly rather not have a situation like what people have described where people expect you to use addons and those addons do things like tell you how much hate you are getting and when to take two steps backwards or something.

I dunno, it is cool if some people like playing like that but I wouldn't like it if SE decided to open the floodgates for programs like that. I just wouldn't. Because people can say they are optional but if the community doing upper tier group based content decides that addons make things optimal or whatever .... you can be darn sure that they won't feel optional


I have raided at the highest level in WoW, and out of the tens of thousands of addons available, there's less than half a dozen that I would call mandatory. Depending on your class maybe only 1 or 2.

Edit:
Come to think of it, for any of my toons other than my healers, I really can't think of any addon that I would Need in order to effectively clear most of the endgame content.(pre-cataclysm that is, I don't play anymore)



Edited, Dec 29th 2010 6:00pm by KristoFurwalken


I think it's the fact that there are any that are considered mandatory that is the point and concern. I know some raid guilds I have associated with on WoW absolutely required a threat meter (now redundant) and Deadly Boss Mods, some others I had seen required healers to have Decursive, and so on. Things can get a little unpleasant if it becomes known you do not have that crutch handy, even if you clearly did not need it.
#65 Dec 29 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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Wolfums wrote:
KristoFurwalken wrote:
I have raided at the highest level in WoW, and out of the tens of thousands of addons available, there's less than half a dozen that I would call mandatory. Depending on your class maybe only 1 or 2.


True story, I raided for a while with no addons. It's pretty easy to pull off, because the raid leader calls out what the boss is doing anyways.


Probably because of DBM. I highly doubt that most high level raiders aren't using that of some sort, same with at least a threat addon of some variety. Although now there might be an official blizzard one, I haven't played since after uldum was introduced. Customizable UI? **** i'm all for it, "Required" mods to tell you what to do during boss fights and to watch your threat? I can do without.

Also, while I didn't first hand experience it myself, the gear score thing from ex-guild mates that still do play just sounds ridiculous as ****, but whatever, its not my game to complain about anymore. So long as the addons don't become hand holding tools that dictate every action you do i'm not entirely opposed to them. But thats the challenge SE faces if they start allowing addons in game, is to what degree do you regulate them to?



Edited, Dec 29th 2010 5:27pm by Ipwnrice
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#66 Dec 29 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Are people really complaining about the potential for SE to introduce UI add-on capability?

Man, I hope Yoshida is up for the challenge... even great improvements will be met with senseless criticism. It's like there's some subconscious oversoul at play that wants this game to fail.

EDIT: No one would force you to use them!! If you don't want to be 'required', then find (or start) a new LS!

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 6:28pm by volta1
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#67 Dec 29 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.
#68 Dec 29 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.

In full disclosure, I didn't play XI (nor have ever claimed to), but from what I understand, Windower is simply a little hack program that allowed the game to be played in windowed mode as opposed to fullscreen. It's not a UI addon and not implemented with an official SE API. Is that correct?
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#69 Dec 29 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.

In full disclosure, I didn't play XI (nor have ever claimed to), but from what I understand, Windower is simply a little hack program that allowed the game to be played in windowed mode as opposed to fullscreen. It's not a UI addon and not implemented with an official SE API. Is that correct?



Windower allowed for longer macros, added some buff/debuff timers, and a number of other UI tweaks.

A better question is, how many of the people condemning WOW addons actually played WOW and used addons? They're not as game changing as people seem to to think they are.
#70 Dec 29 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


I used windower. Mainly for the ability to minimize and chat log timers (or w/e it was called). But I don't seem to remember windower displaying huge blue font on my screen to run away or do w/e action to counter what a boss is doing. Once again i'm all for customizing your UI, but I think a lot of addons that resulted of the ability from WoW got really ridiculous. Guess i'm nothing but a mouth breathing hypocrite for not wanting that experience again......
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#71 Dec 29 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.

In full disclosure, I didn't play XI (nor have ever claimed to), but from what I understand, Windower is simply a little hack program that allowed the game to be played in windowed mode as opposed to fullscreen. It's not a UI addon and not implemented with an official SE API. Is that correct?


its the same thing. Its going around the game code to make something more convenient. Only wow addons never actually bypassed anything. They rearranged info the game gave you and displayed it in a more helpful manner.
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#72 Dec 29 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Never used windower.
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#73 Dec 29 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.

In full disclosure, I didn't play XI (nor have ever claimed to), but from what I understand, Windower is simply a little hack program that allowed the game to be played in windowed mode as opposed to fullscreen. It's not a UI addon and not implemented with an official SE API. Is that correct?



Windower allowed for longer macros, added some buff/debuff timers, and a number of other UI tweaks.

A better question is, how many of the people condemning WOW addons actually played WOW and used addons? They're not as game changing as people seem to to think they are.


Just like people who cheated in XI saying it isn't cheating because "everyone else did it" >.>
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#74 Dec 29 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Wolfums wrote:
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.

In full disclosure, I didn't play XI (nor have ever claimed to), but from what I understand, Windower is simply a little hack program that allowed the game to be played in windowed mode as opposed to fullscreen. It's not a UI addon and not implemented with an official SE API. Is that correct?



Windower allowed for longer macros, added some buff/debuff timers, and a number of other UI tweaks.

A better question is, how many of the people condemning WOW addons actually played WOW and used addons? They're not as game changing as people seem to to think they are.


Just like people who cheated in XI saying it isn't cheating because "everyone else did it" >.>


Yeah, except for the fact that FFXI cheating went against the terms of service and it allowed you to do something you otherwise couldn't if you were using the default FFXI game; while in WOW, UI addons are supported and encouraged, and don't let you do something you otherwise couldn't.
#75 Dec 29 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.

In full disclosure, I didn't play XI (nor have ever claimed to), but from what I understand, Windower is simply a little hack program that allowed the game to be played in windowed mode as opposed to fullscreen. It's not a UI addon and not implemented with an official SE API. Is that correct?


its the same thing. Its going around the game code to make something more convenient. Only wow addons never actually bypassed anything. They rearranged info the game gave you and displayed it in a more helpful manner.


What you say is confusing to me. I am suggesting Windower was an unofficial "add-on" (not really an add-on, but a hack), while WoW add-ons are sanctioned by Blizzard, implemented to their API spec and are officially recognized by the game. That would suggest they are not the same thing.

Things like Glider (botting program for WoW) sound like they'd be implemented in a similar fashion to windower (i.e. flying under the radar).

Anyone who is arguing that officially exposing an API for add-on development, UI or otherwise, would hurt the game...share your opinions as to why. So far I've heard that it causes an 'imbalance' in players, or that it creates a bad environment due to raid/party leaders 'requiring' certain add-ons in order to participate. I don't believe either to be the case for reasons already discussed in the thread. After considering potential downsides to having an add-on API, I still think that net, it is better to have an API than not.

Are there any other thoughts? I really want to get to the bottom of this. I'm not seeing the issue, other than the ZAM community finding fault in every change or plan that SE has for this game.
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#76 Dec 29 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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So I started thinking about something. I think one of the big reasons SE was/is so anti-mod is because it is cross platform, and PC gamers would theoretically have an unfair advantage over people on the console.

Now, I'm just spitballin here. But, do you think we will ever even see a PS3 version at all?

It has already been delayed, and now this comment about addons.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 6:58pm by KristoFurwalken
#77 Dec 29 2010 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:


Just like people who cheated in XI saying it isn't cheating because "everyone else did it" >.>


SHHH cheating never happened! All those people breaking the ToS weren't cheating! They were just giving themselves an advantage over other players who played by the rules. But it was all SE's fault for making the game have any limitations at all, right?

Like the person above saying I "sucked at life" because I didn't cheat. Sorry folks, using windower was by SE's definition - cheating. It is their game, their rules. When you break the rules you are cheating.

If you want to do that, whatever, I don't really care - but I would care if SE "legalized" cheating because it sucks the fun out of the game for people like me that want to play by the rules.

Case in point:

EzellLangor wrote:
Windower was a must to be good at your job. SE sucks at making macro lines. I really didn't like taking people on "raids" in XI if they didn't have windower, **** even didn't like taking people that didn't have vent. There is a reason the best shells/clans are the best. Because they use the best mods to help them push out that little extra dmg. Don't like it, don't join the shell and be in a social. No one says you gotta end game.



Funny cause I remember Elmer saying a lot of JP players were put off by the fact that so many North American players cheated by using windower etc. I seem to remember a lot of very good JP players in the game. Maybe they all cheated and pretended they didn't - but from what I understand it just wasn't the case.

IMO it is ridiculous for someone who is cheating to do their job to claim they are "better" at their job than someone who does it the hard way. It is totally mystifying, in fact. Like someone using a calculator claiming they are better at math than someone who does it all in their head cause they perhaps do calculations marginally faster.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#78 Dec 29 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


I used windower for the window aspect, and I really liked the TP Party add on. It didn't do anything that you couldn't tell me about already, but it was really nice for timing SC with pick up groups. However when I found out one of my LS was using addons for windower for certain NM claims I became disenchanted with the game. At first it was fun because it was only against RMT but then one day it was against a LS with real people... yup my love for XI slowly dwindled from that point on.

I'm totally against 3rd party tools. Even if some would be beneficial, ultimately it will lead to some people cheating or some people requiring tool x or y. And at that point the game becomes pointless other than as a glorified IM client. Having said that, I would really like to see more customization options with the UI, and I trulty think we will see that. I just don't see outside tools as long as the game is multiplat.
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#79 Dec 29 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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I like what I'm hearing from this guy! Hopefully he and his team can bring those ideas to fruition.
#80 Dec 29 2010 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.


I wasn't referring to any one person in particular. I just find that for the degree of polarization around the issue there are bound to be some twits denouncing WoW addons who made heavy use of Windower plugins. Windower for FFXI started out as something that was intended to provide a layer of functionality that FFXI lacked, specifically the option to tab out of the game. I never used the Windower but even I could see the benefit to that...I always resented the fact that FFXI monopolized access to the other things I could do with my PC, including but not limited to using a web browser to look up information about the game without having to log out.

Over time, however, the functionality of the Windower expanded to include such things as scripting multiple line macros beyond what the game allowed, displaying explicit distance from target information, displaying party TP, etc. etc. And it did all of this despite being an application that wasn't sanctioned by SE.

And that's what people seem to overlook in this whole tired debate. People are already using unsanctioned third party applications for FFXIV despite the first XIV windower team receiving a C&D order from SE. We know this from people posting chat logs with timestamps and the less intelligent amongst the application users showing up on patch day with the, "WTF why is my game broken?!?!?" shenanigans that are resolved by a little, "wink wink nudge nudge change this back to the way it was before you installed the *cough* stuff *cough* and try again."

Hey, I'm not judging. I'm just pointing out that those things are already in the game and are just going to evolve as the game progresses. Like the addon idea or hate it...at least if SE supports it with their own framework they can exert a measure of control over it. Towards the end of my time in XI, it was a very common assumption that you were using the windower, only people were afraid to discuss openly in-game because they didn't want a text log record of themselves saying they used it in case SE decided to crack down. So instead of, "hey man, if you use the TParty plugin with Windower you'll see we're getting ready to WS so maybe hold off until we're done" you'd get "zomfg stop ******* up our skillchain."

Everything always seems to boil down to, "I don't want SE to add this feature because other people might do this or might do that or might be mean or might kick me from parties."

It's ******* ridiculous. It's going to happen whether SE supports third party addons or not. I don't approve, I don't like it, but I'm not going to go sob in my coffee over it, either.
#81 Dec 29 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Wolfums wrote:
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
As per usual, I can't help but wonder how many of the people in this thread condemning addons in WoW used the windower for FFXI. I bet it would be interesting to find out. Exposing hypocrisy is always delicious.


Not to hijack the thread, but what do you mean? I'm paranoid it is in response to me.

In full disclosure, I didn't play XI (nor have ever claimed to), but from what I understand, Windower is simply a little hack program that allowed the game to be played in windowed mode as opposed to fullscreen. It's not a UI addon and not implemented with an official SE API. Is that correct?



Windower allowed for longer macros, added some buff/debuff timers, and a number of other UI tweaks.

A better question is, how many of the people condemning WOW addons actually played WOW and used addons? They're not as game changing as people seem to to think they are.


Just like people who cheated in XI saying it isn't cheating because "everyone else did it" >.>


tabbing out to windows isn't cheating
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#82 Dec 29 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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insanekangaroo wrote:

tabbing out to windows isn't cheating


Yeah and that is the reason why people say things like this:

EzellLangor wrote:


You obviously didn't play end game in XI, or if you did you sucked at life. Windower was a must to be good at your job. SE sucks at making macro lines. I really didn't like taking people on "raids" in XI if they didn't have windower, **** even didn't like taking people that didn't have vent. There is a reason the best shells/clans are the best. Because they use the best mods to help them push out that little extra dmg. Don't like it, don't join the shell and be in a social. No one says you gotta end game.



cause just being able to tab out of windows was making people better at endgame amirite?

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:24pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#83 Dec 29 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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The idea of user created add-ons seems like an empty idea to me.
They would have to recreate the whole widget framework, because every interaction gets transferred serverside. Unless we had official access to their servers, I just can't see them supporting it.

That said, if he truly wants to make the game accessible, they NEED to ditch the current UI and the way it works. It will never be fast and zippy until they ditch the need for a serverside interaction.


As for this guy, yeah he sounds great, but he's just one guy. All of the progammers and designers still have the original idea of the game in their head. It's up to him to break their old habits and get them to diversify. Alone as one man he can't change anything, his team need to start thinking the same way, and indipendantly coming up with and pushing new ideas and thoughts.

I think the roadmap for XI was a great idea, so I'm glad to see that it looks like he'll be doing the same for XIV. It'll be interesting to see (presuming they'll post an XI one too) how a game with an uncertain future sizes up to one with a solid year of gameplay to come...
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#84 Dec 29 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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jPuff wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
denshigomi wrote:


Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Do you really think it is masochistic to want everyone to play on an even playing field?

If everyone can use add-ons, then the playing field is even.


Assuming that everyone wants the game to be dumbed down.



Dumbed down from what? Being terrible? Something has to have a modicum of strategy or complexity to be able to be dumbed down. FFXIV has neither.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:43pm by jPuff



Hmmm. Are you one of those players that does nothing but hit f1? Did you know that battle regimens can significantly alter a battle in your favor? You can use them to lower a mobs attack or defense, as well as its defense to certain elements as well as doubling or tripling your attack damage.

Do you even know how to use battle regimen? or do you just hit 1-1-1-1?

Did you know a great deal of the mobs in the game have some sort of incapacitation? Did you know you can break off a goat's horn or a skeleton's head? Did you know you can shatter a (D/C)oblyns back using the right skills? That you can destroy certain mob's arms, legs, heads etc? No you probably just hit 1-1-1-1.

Bloody ignorant people.
#85 Dec 29 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Hmmm. Are you one of those players that does nothing but hit f1? Did you know that battle regimens can significantly alter a battle in your favor? You can use them to lower a mobs attack or defense, as well as its defense to certain elements as well as doubling or tripling your attack damage.

Do you even know how to use battle regimen? or do you just hit 1-1-1-1?

Did you know a great deal of the mobs in the game have some sort of incapacitation? Did you know you can break off a goat's horn or a skeleton's head? Did you know you can shatter a (D/C)oblyns back using the right skills? That you can destroy certain mob's arms, legs, heads etc? No you probably just hit 1-1-1-1.


Those are all great ideas that were very poorly implemented, unfortunately.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

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#86 Dec 30 2010 at 12:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Hmmm. Are you one of those players that does nothing but hit f1? Did you know that battle regimens can significantly alter a battle in your favor? You can use them to lower a mobs attack or defense, as well as its defense to certain elements as well as doubling or tripling your attack damage.

Do you even know how to use battle regimen? or do you just hit 1-1-1-1?

Did you know a great deal of the mobs in the game have some sort of incapacitation? Did you know you can break off a goat's horn or a skeleton's head? Did you know you can shatter a (D/C)oblyns back using the right skills? That you can destroy certain mob's arms, legs, heads etc? No you probably just hit 1-1-1-1.


Battle regimens can significantly alter a battle in your favor?

On NMs, the only mobs we have to gauge these 'strategic' actions you seem to imply, battle regimens are not noticeable. Example: On Great Buffalo, I shoot him for 20-35(crit) normal. With Regimen of Ruin (Physical defense down), I shoot him for 20-35(crit). This is using Blue Coral arrows and sometimes Iron Swallowtail. No effect at all.

Next: Incapacitating a mob is a fun concept, but as previous poster said it is poorly implemented. Combat is slow. It still entails me standing in one spot, getting 100 tp for landing a shot, and using a single ability when I have enough TP. Sure I can use Bloodletter or Shrieker to break horns, but it increases the drop rate of said items from 10% to 12%! Not fun or exciting.

Stop trying to glorify boring, poorly implemented gameplay elements to make them seem fun or necessary.

That being said, I can't wait for the full translation of this article. I have no doubt this game is going to be a worthy title in the future.
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#87 Dec 30 2010 at 12:20 AM Rating: Default
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jPuff wrote:

Dumbed down from what? Being terrible? Something has to have a modicum of strategy or complexity to be able to be dumbed down. FFXIV has neither.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:43pm by jPuff



there, you're wrong. there is strategy in this game, you just haven't experienced it yet due (mostly) to poor implementation.

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#88thehellfire, Posted: Dec 30 2010 at 12:39 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Add-ons? Woot the ps3 is getting cancelled!
#89 Dec 30 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
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I got kicked from an endgame LS for refusing to use a add on claim bot aka i refused to cheat and respected other players.

OH we should just program bots to grind our characters while were at work!

Why don't we all just get brain surgery and become mindless zombies?

Enough said about bots?
#90 Dec 30 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
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supernokes wrote:
I got kicked from an endgame LS for refusing to use a add on claim bot aka i refused to cheat and respected other players.

OH we should just program bots to grind our characters while were at work!

Why don't we all just get brain surgery and become mindless zombies?

Enough said about bots?


Touching on this, it comes down to the players behind them being the issue, and thats something i stress about alot of issues with many games out there

focusing on 14, we can look at the current market situation

Lets look at the situation with everyone putting their retainers only in the abttlecraft ward. Was that a player issue or something thats SEs fault. Well of course, with a search function, the players who do it, its their fault.

When it comes to UI addons, its the same thing

If SE doesnt allow them, its SEs fault for the game not being UI friendly
If SE does allow them, and players abuse them, its SEs fault for allowing them to be used at all and causing the situation


everything we look at in MMOs comes down to that same universal truth, its ALWAYS the companies fault and no one else is ever expected to take responsibility for variables that can not be controled


for the record, i HATE being forced to use UI tools, warcraft especialy ****** me off with it because to be in a major guild you were required to use them, period, and if you didnt, you werent allowed to raid.
In 11, the only guilds that "required" them were guilds that had no quams about cheating(in 11 thats exactly what it was, cheating, since it was against the rules)

and as for warcraft and this thought about the mods doing what players easily did anyway, i call major BS to that. Bossmods being the prime example. It made everything easymode. You no longer had to pay attention to the way the mob acted so that you klnow what it was doing, the mod did that for you and everyone else. And that took most of the chhalenge out of everything.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 11:51pm by Vedis
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#91 Dec 30 2010 at 2:03 AM Rating: Default
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where can i get this "Mods" that made wow 1 hit win game ?
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#92 Dec 30 2010 at 2:29 AM Rating: Decent
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What bothers me about this thread is that the OP points out there's an interview, we get some translations here and there in the first few posts, and then there's two pages of people being butthurt about speculation over what Yoshida might or might not do.

(That is not constructive.)

PS: Windower is not cheating; it is illegal, and there is a difference. Windower was not mandatory in FFXI, even in endgame. What was "mandatory" in some endgame linkshells was botting and some forms of hacking, but that is not the same thing as Windower and those guys were douchebags anyway. See also: you don't know what you're talking about, shut the fu¢k up.
#93 Dec 30 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Even in WoW, addons like Deadly Boss Mods or BigWigs did not make bad players good. People fail to understand that most world first or cutting edge guilds in WoW custom make their addons specifically for the new raids.

Addons are not necessary, unless you want to be/are in the top 5%.
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#94 Dec 30 2010 at 6:04 AM Rating: Default
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Still can't understand how some people here cant umderstand the benefit of crowdsourced add ons and UIs. Crowdsourcing for one, is a very good way to add fresh creativity and new ideas that developers might not thought of themselves. And if it brings functions and convenience to the users that helps enrich the gaming experience,i am all for that.

I don't buy the argument that those who used windower to enhance their ui cheated because SE made the ui like that for a reason. With that argument i have to ask you how in the **** that gives anyone the right to ***** about FFXIV's UI on release. SE MADE IT THAT WAY! IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT. THE MOANERS MADE US ALL CHEATERS FOR MAKING SE CHANGE IT!

Ridiculus... By those arguments, the initial UI for FFXIV was final, and no discussion about that! Se made it that way! Optimizing it would be cheating, and breaking SE's master plan! Luckily SE listened to the crowd. And now we have a partially crowdsourced UI that is aeons better than it was at launch. Still not good imo, but better.

But i suppose some people thik SE just dumbed it down... cheated... broke the game even more...

Creativity is something we should appriciate, and welcome. Not spit on and cry wolf about. I would have loved "push notifications" on what went down in the heat of endgame in FFXI, but unfortunately windower was limited to just (but thankfully) smoother macroing without lag, distance, TP, and cool down. Oh and also the aaaawesome feature to enhance the drawdistance and over all graphics of the game. Something that gave it a good 2 years of extra longevity for me.

Those of you who call that cheating... Most of that already exists in this game. They even added visible duration time for your buffs. BUT THAT IS CHEATING! (by your standards)

Lastly i feel sorry for those who did not try out windower in FFXI. It was probably the best thing that happened to that game after the level up adjustments.

Get off your high horses, or go play an analogue game... like chess or something... But don't use a clock... that would be cheating because you could keep track of time!


#95 Dec 30 2010 at 6:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Wloire wrote:
jPuff wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
denshigomi wrote:


Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Do you really think it is masochistic to want everyone to play on an even playing field?

If everyone can use add-ons, then the playing field is even.


Assuming that everyone wants the game to be dumbed down.



Dumbed down from what? Being terrible? Something has to have a modicum of strategy or complexity to be able to be dumbed down. FFXIV has neither.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:43pm by jPuff



Hmmm. Are you one of those players that does nothing but hit f1? Did you know that battle regimens can significantly alter a battle in your favor? You can use them to lower a mobs attack or defense, as well as its defense to certain elements as well as doubling or tripling your attack damage.

Do you even know how to use battle regimen? or do you just hit 1-1-1-1?

Did you know a great deal of the mobs in the game have some sort of incapacitation? Did you know you can break off a goat's horn or a skeleton's head? Did you know you can shatter a (D/C)oblyns back using the right skills? That you can destroy certain mob's arms, legs, heads etc? No you probably just hit 1-1-1-1.

Bloody ignorant people.


Try beating a mob with autoattack on XI. Not likely. Its amazing you're trying to say XIV has strategic elements if you LOOK FOR THEM. The difference is negligible. XIV is nothing but a grindfest and I hope they'll change this.
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#96 Dec 30 2010 at 6:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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@Caleberiel

Do you understand that PS2 users can't use windower and thus it is an advantage over them which makes it unfair and ban-able offense?

Nothing else matters.

I'm not saying XIV shouldn't have custom add on. I'm just defending XI's stance on it.

Of course it would make the game better for everyone who used it IF EVERYONE HAD THE CHOICE, but not everyone had the choice because of (lol) PS2 limitations.

Anyway... It would work in XIV if player made UI tweaks were approved by SE and perhaps implemented in the game itself eventually. Then PC users would only have (however long they had it first) advantage over PS3 users... which is no more or less fair (really) than letting PC users play the game for 6+ months (many of the months FREE) before PS3 users.

If they let us run custom software as a form of beta test for future improvements to XIV UI that would be accessible on PS3 then everyone wins (eventually).
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#97 Dec 30 2010 at 6:22 AM Rating: Decent
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mnikad12 wrote:
Even in WoW, addons like Deadly Boss Mods or BigWigs did not make bad players good. People fail to understand that most world first or cutting edge guilds in WoW custom make their addons specifically for the new raids.

Addons are not necessary, unless you want to be/are in the top 5%.


Bolded for emphasis. I haven't raided in a very, very long time, but the most useful info you get from the raid add-ons such as DBM or BW are the timer bars. For example, if a boss has an ability that is used every 45 seconds, it will simply keep a timer visible for you and everyone else. And that's no different than someone in FFXI/XIV making a macro that shouts something to the party every 45 seconds (if that's possible) or someone calling it out on vent every 45 sec.

Of course, there's a lot more it can tell you, but the point is that for those who think these addons suddenly make the encounters turn into "no skill" is misinformed. DBM doesn't make you a better damage dealer. DBM doesn't make you a better healer. And anyone who has done raiding in WoW will know that even with these add-ons, big text warnings, and timer bars, some people still don't get better at being environmentally aware (dying by standing in fire patches/void zones). In the end, these add-ons were not necessary.

But from what I hear, there haven't been any sophisticated NMs in XIV that require such add-ons so that really shouldn't matter. However, if there's one add-on I want it's to change the hotkey GUI. Take note SE: monitors these days have enough real estate to show more than one row of hotkeys at a time!
#98 Dec 30 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Default
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Kirutaru wrote:
@Caleberiel

Do you understand that PS2 users can't use windower and thus it is an advantage over them which makes it unfair and ban-able offense?

Nothing else matters.

I'm not saying XIV shouldn't have custom add on. I'm just defending XI's stance on it.

Of course it would make the game better for everyone who used it IF EVERYONE HAD THE CHOICE, but not everyone had the choice because of (lol) PS2 limitations.

Anyway... It would work in XIV if player made UI tweaks were approved by SE and perhaps implemented in the game itself eventually. Then PC users would only have (however long they had it first) advantage over PS3 users... which is no more or less fair (really) than letting PC users play the game for 6+ months (many of the months FREE) before PS3 users.

If they let us run custom software as a form of beta test for future improvements to XIV UI that would be accessible on PS3 then everyone wins (eventually).


I can't take advantage of all functions in iOS 4 on my iPhone 3g. If i want to do that i have to switch platform to iPhone 3gs or iPhone 4. Halting and limiting development and user created content over a minority who (already from the start) play with inferior hardware, is just totally backwards...
#99 Dec 30 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Good
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Caleberiel wrote:
I can't take advantage of all functions in iOS 4 on my iPhone 3g. If i want to do that i have to switch platform to iPhone 3gs or iPhone 4. Halting and limiting development and user created content over a minority who (already from the start) play with inferior hardware, is just totally backwards...

I think you may be comparing apples and oranges. You have two people purchasing the exact same service with different devices. All the basic functionality must be the same or you're paying the same amount for NOT the same amount of product/service. After all, everyone's clamoring for UI-addons or adjustments to be a part of the game and not something frowned upon. Hence, basic functionality.
#100 Dec 30 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Wloire wrote:
jPuff wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
denshigomi wrote:


Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Do you really think it is masochistic to want everyone to play on an even playing field?

If everyone can use add-ons, then the playing field is even.


Assuming that everyone wants the game to be dumbed down.



Dumbed down from what? Being terrible? Something has to have a modicum of strategy or complexity to be able to be dumbed down. FFXIV has neither.

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 2:43pm by jPuff



Hmmm. Are you one of those players that does nothing but hit f1? Did you know that battle regimens can significantly alter a battle in your favor? You can use them to lower a mobs attack or defense, as well as its defense to certain elements as well as doubling or tripling your attack damage.

Do you even know how to use battle regimen? or do you just hit 1-1-1-1?

Did you know a great deal of the mobs in the game have some sort of incapacitation? Did you know you can break off a goat's horn or a skeleton's head? Did you know you can shatter a (D/C)oblyns back using the right skills? That you can destroy certain mob's arms, legs, heads etc? No you probably just hit 1-1-1-1.

Bloody ignorant people.


You're right, I should have been doing battle regimens on all those mobs that die in 4 seconds.
#101 Dec 30 2010 at 9:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Of course it would make the game better for everyone who used it IF EVERYONE HAD THE CHOICE, but not everyone had the choice because of (lol) PS2 limitations.


This is getting to be an old played excuse. The game is more than 7 years old upon which you or anyone should have invested in a new computer by now that can easily play FFXI. The graphical requirements for the game are not steep and dropping at least 100$ on a computer that can play about 50x better than a ps2 is not impossible. Everyone has the choice to upgrade and for whatever reason (i.e. being extremely cheap) is not excuse to go from ps2 -> PC anymore. You can still use a controller, you can enjoy all the functions that your ps2 offered for ffxi and some. Oh and you'll also have a computer which you can use to do other stuff.

Windower in it's current state does not add anything more then what you could have found out by simply asking or looking or adding a couple extra macros slots for. Windower displays information at it's face value and saves time by making information available (Which can even be unnecessary if you good at mental accounting). All of these things have been asked for before and none of them are critically game-breaking that others make them out to be. I bet half of the people against windower don't even understand what it does outside of extending macro lines. Windower is not suddenly a cheat machine and in it's absolute no add-on form is just a better tabbed version of the SE windower. Your ideas of cheating are way to critical. There is a huge difference between a windower user seeing your TP and a FFXIassist user claiming NM's. Only one of those are negatively impacting the game, want to take a guess?

And add-on support in FFXIV would be great, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Curse found a way to implement themselves onto the ps3. If anything the ps3 does have a web browser so they could always download the addon that way.


Edited, Dec 30th 2010 10:54am by MippsCat
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