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Questions for fellow FFXI veterans, and FFXIV players.Follow

#1 Dec 29 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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First of all, Hello :) (Long post, only read if you have a genuine interest.)

I can't possibly read through every topic here to find a similar thread, so i will just open my windows here. I just got FFXIV and logged on for the first time yesterday... and.. oh boy...

I am a "Since NA release FFXI veteran" Give or take a break here and there and a final quit about hmm... a year and a half-ish ago. I recovered my Zam ID (Caleberiel) which was also my FFXI-characters name on Titan. Amazed it was still here since my main forum activity during the FFXI Days were at killingifrit. Anyways.

I would lie if i said i had not heard about all the flak FFXIV had taken since release, but i always try to get some hands on experience before i start judging things.

This post will be a combination of question marks that popped up in my head, that i hope that some of you more experienced players can help me answer, as well questions to the FFXI vets out there.

My first big "WHY" is the macabre focus on crafting... I cannot understand how any sane developer would release a game (something people use to wind down with after work) where appearantly all effort has gone in to refining the arts of manual labor. Crafting worked very well as a supplement hobby in FFXI. Something to do while looking for party, or in between events during dead hours. Naturally there were hard core crafters in FFXI as well, but the game did not stand and fall with it. From what i understand there are next to no gear rewarded for quests, or dropping from monsters in this game. Every thing is crafted. Heck, the crafting classes out weigh the "conventional MMORPG character classes" 3 to 1 in this game... To even make them real classes is beyond me.

"Hey there goes Rex Ruthor! Hey Rex, seen any action today?!"
"You bet! I've been needeling the **** out of these here pantalons for days now, son! Life as a taylor sure is mighty exciting! I get to leave the city walls every few weeks when i run out of chalk!"

Needless to say, i didn't craft much in FFXI... just to get the sun glasses to wear as a fashion statement... and i might be alone in finding this bizzare, anyways. Is this really what we expected? If there is some higher purpouse to the crafting that i have missed (which i probably have, only 2 days in to this game) please explain it to me. :)

Then we have the levesystem. What in god's name? What happened to god ol' fashioned questing, with good ol' fashioned rewards? Alot of what made FFXI fun (for me at least) Were all the multi part quests given to you by regular towns folk, cowardly city guards, and shady characters lurking in the shadows. I mean...

"Where's the street wise hercules to fight the rising odds?"

Well right now he/she is leashed to an Aetherite fighting to keep the squirrel or mosquito population from getting out of control, no further than a couple of yards away. Is this what we were to expect prior to launch? Does my fellow FFXI vets have any input on this? Is there a higher purpouse for this system?

Then we have the city life. Which is nowhere to be found. It kinda feels like you are inside the clockwork puzzle in Castlevania Lords of Shadow. Everything is so... mechanical... Nothing really feels "real". It's like walking around inside a big vending machine. Where is the ambient residents? Where are the running children? ... in fact... where are the children, period? Higher purpouse?

Partying... From what i understand, the game mechanics don't favor partying at all right now. I wonder why SE figured there were only black and white here. I would not want a 7 hour wait for party because i can'd do anything on my own, like alot of times in FFXI, but it feels like they didn't fathom the possibility of both options working together in the same game... Higher purpouse?

UI... well... nuff said.

Here is a question for all you FFXI veterans out there: Would you have liked, and were you kinda on some level (like me) expectiong a game that were alot more like FFXI than what we have gotten so far? In my naive way of thinking, i was kinda expecting it to be a polished, updated, and rebooted version of all we loved in FFXI, with all the dents and dysfunctions from that game hammered out with FFXIV. Trust me, i really WANT to like FFXIV. But already after only 2 days in game, i find it very hard to believe it will last me over 5 years, let alone 5 weeks.

This whole post has come across as very very negative, and in a way it is what i feel, but i thik alot of it is because i was expecting something that was waaaaaay different from what i got. And it hurts my soul to see SE fail so miserably at reading and picking up on what fans of their old MMO installment really appriciated about their epic saga.

(Epicness also something that is nowhere to be found in FFXIV unfortunately)

It actually hurts to see what i wrote. But this is my first impression of this game, as an honest, former hardcore FFXI fan. And if this is the common reaction, something went horribly wrong. :(



#2 Dec 29 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Well.... you don't have to craft. You can just buy things from other people who craft... so yeah. I suggest that if you really don't like it then don't do it.

I actually like crafting, and I actually do it like you suggest people did it in XI (between parties etc). I know that a lot of players actually really dig the crafting system so even if it is not your cup of tea I wish you wouldn't slag it being a big part of the game.

Guildleves do give some equippable item rewards - although fairly rarely. I don't see why it is an issue to have to buy gear from a crafter though.

Many of your concerns are pretty universal. Most players have been disappointed in the game on some level or another. Some less than others. Some more than others.

Party play still works. People crab about it but it still gives better SP than soloing.

I think guildleves are okay. I've never liked quests - but if I had a choice between guildleves and FFXI style quests I would choose guildleves every time. I actually like getting an adequate reward for the work I do. Getting 30 gil for completing a quest that cost me 3K and took me an hour is pretty crappy. I want some more non repeatable quests that unlock storylines, however.

And you're right about the world needing more life - for sure.

I think that some of the stuff you don't like is just personal preference or hang ups from XI... but a lot of it is stuff that bothers lots of people. So you aren't alone.

I would say that in order to really give this game a fair chance you need to let go of your expectations (in terms of it being like XI).

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#3 Dec 29 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
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I agree with the OP entirely. I still try and log on and play hoping one of these fixes will magically give the game life but so far no good. I have chosen to play WoW over this dissappointment of a game.
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#4 Dec 29 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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In a way...the focus on crafting has taken away some of the magic of your typical FF release. Since SE wants to rely on crafting to be the main driving force behind gear...they more or less removed the aspects of special and unique gear quests, which was one of the driving forces of FFXI, IMO. Working on AF gear in FFXI really brought the community together for a common goal...some of my most fond memories. That, so far, has been replaced with looking through retainers for the next item on the list. Its pretty tough to get excited about the current gear or weapon selections.

I have no doubt this will will change in the future...but right now its kinda blah at lower to middle ranks.
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#5 Dec 29 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Caleberiel wrote:
Here is a question for all you FFXI veterans out there: Would you have liked, and were you kinda on some level (like me) expectiong a game that were alot more like FFXI than what we have gotten so far?


More of a casual player then anything due to school and work, but i was very active in all aspects of the end game of FFxi. To answer your question. No. If i wanted a new game to be like the game i hardly play anymore, i would rather stop playing all together.

Yes there are issues with FFxiv as everyone is aware of, but I'm glad they went in they did when creating FFxiv. Trying out new things is a nice change of pace. As much as some people were hoping for FFxi-2, sorry to burst your bubble.
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#6 Dec 29 2010 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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Tough luck, FFXIV wasn't created as an offshoot or another version of FFXI. This is entirely a new game with new concepts, methods and game-play. It is reasonable to think that the game play elements be brought from FFXI to FFXIV, but this a FF game. Like all FF, barring the sequels, will always be created with unique emphasis on game play. I took an open minded approach when I played this game. I did not expect that this will play like FFXI has. And I am enjoying it. Crafting was a skill in Van'adiel, and it is now a class in Eorzea. Rabits are normally found there , but I see rats and squirrels here...So yea its a different world with different rules.

So drop the FFXI way of thinking, and start looking for the elements in FFXIV that can make it enjoyable to you.
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#7 Dec 29 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Something i must bring up I always do when people mentioned "forcing everyone to craft" or anything along those lines


3 months ago, when we were at release, yes, you may have needed it so much more.

but at this point the crafting community is to a point where we can support the battle only community(as long as they arent tightwards when it comes to parting with their gil, you all know who im talking about with your 1-1000gil repairs)


the people hurt the most of course are the "i want to be able to do everything on my own, BUT i dont wanna have to do something that is needed to do everything on my own" which usualy ends up being crafting. of course, thats a choice they made if they dont wanna be social so they have no one to blame but themselves
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#8 Dec 29 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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The game may not be for you. A lot of people just don't like 14.

Personally, I enjoy the game.
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#9 Dec 29 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Rated up simply for this that made me laugh so hard, the people in my office now think [more so] that I'm a lunatic;

Quote:
"Hey there goes Rex Ruthor! Hey Rex, seen any action today?!"
"You bet! I've been needeling the @#%^ out of these here pantalons for days now, son!"


Aside from that, I do agree with a majority of your concerns, also being a NA Release XI veteran.
I've gotten over the crafting thing since affordable repairs are now easier to find.
I miss the life that XI and most other SE titles have added to their cities in the past. In Sandy, I always felt terrible for that kid that was running back and forth from the AH delivering goods and wished I could help.
It's those kind of evoked emotions that make a world real. There are a few characters in Ul'Dah that look like they have some potential to become interesting, but we shall see.

My attitude remains as such: I canceled my XI account for this so, I'm sticking with it. I expect an asinine amount of changes. Watching XIV evolve should be an interesting experience.
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#10 Dec 29 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with OP, I don't know why they did a lot of these things, was the leve thing just to make development easier? What is the purpose?

"Hey making every npc interactive and quest npcs is hard work! Lets just make this crystal, THREE of them give all the quests, that'll shave months of development time!"

"Great idea, cuz we're already running out of time and the boss says its gotta be out by Oct! And the PS3 in March! People are too stupid to notice we're lazy, I bet they didn't even miss the cities in FFXIII, once again - too much work! 1080p! Gotta meet deadlines and shareholder expectations!"


I really miss the life the cities had, the quests that u did to get to know npcs... or picking up several quests u can do all at once in one area, so u could plan out ur day at work on ZAM on what quests u wanted to do where and how'd u'd chain them to save travel time.


As for the crafting thing, FFXI had a stable market/crafting economy already before us NA players got there, we had our studded armors at 12, bone at 16, chain at 20.. etc etc all ready in the AH waiting for us to browse and dream about. In FFXI u could get chain armor at an npc I remember too, but noone did. I guess SQEnix wanted to have a bustling economy right out the door, so they made crafting more important... but without an AH or search feature at launch that sorta failed. Recipes weren't balanced too, everyone just made what was easy to make.

Running around the markets just to get the items I need to craft is still too time consuming than standing at an AH. With no mog house I don't want to goto the market to find my retainer either...


I'm all for new ideas, but quests and the economy are baseline expectations
#11 Dec 29 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Much of what is different from FFXI, such as emphasis on crafting, was done so to prevent RMT.
You have to admit, the old SE dev team did create a game where RMT is very difficult, but look how it turned out...

removed AH: prevent RMT
must craft all: so RMT would have to lvl crafting just to RMT crafted items (no drops)
PTs lacking: remember the hordes of RMT PTs in FFXI? they're gone
guild leves: alternative to PTs, not profitable enough for RMT

These are all noble attempts, but you forgot one thing old SE dev team; FUN!
you cannot have RMT countermeasures if it removes the fun from an MMORPG, as SE has learned.
#12 Dec 29 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Default
5 posts
When I played other MMO's I used to always cast myself as a former XI player. I loved that game, and I thought it had one of the best communities ever, and I was proud of my HNM credentials there. I wonder why couldn't those communities and games be more like the XI I remembered.

Now that I am playing this game with so many other "XI veterans" I see you all have become just as bad as the rest of the gamers in the world, and I hate you for it. I hate your stupid opinions about what makes an MMO good, your criticisms of XI on one hand, and then your asinine appeals to nostalgia when you people say that CoP and challenging content in XI was great and second to none, when we all know that you all ruined that game after I quit precisely because it was "too hard". You have no concept of what XI was like at launch, of what a vanilla MMO other than World of Warcraft or some other post-2005 garbage MMO was like, your ideas for this game are all 100x worse than anything Square Enix has implemented and so the best thing they could possibly do is forget how to read feedback again. Sure lots of stuff needs tuning and even 180 degree changes, but did you ever think there was a reason no one ever took your dream of going into video game development yourself seriously?



Allakhazham as a community was a laughing stock when I played XI in a hardcore HNM ls and everyone who knew anything about that game made fun of you people, putting your opinions and thoughts on XI right on par with the brady guide. Nothing has changed, don't cast yourself as a hardcore XI player when you were nothing more than an allakhazam moron. Not that elitists haven't turned to mush either, the vast majority of people who played XI who I had any respect for no longer play video games at all, because video games today (not just MMO's) are retarded.

New civilization- retarded
new fallout games- retarded
new elder scrolls- retarded
new total war games- retarded
FPS games today- retarded

XIV couldn't be XI even if the people behind it wanted it to, because you people are incapable of playing or appreciating a video game of that caliber today and products such as this are dictated by the will of the market which is to produce mindless, bland crap. Which is exactly what XI is today, and XIV has no hope of being this video gaming messiah because video gamers as a whole don't deserve it.

F-U video gamers, seriously you suck and are scum.
#13 Dec 29 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Vedis wrote:
Something i must bring up I always do when people mentioned "forcing everyone to craft" or anything along those lines


3 months ago, when we were at release, yes, you may have needed it so much more.

but at this point the crafting community is to a point where we can support the battle only community(as long as they arent tightwards when it comes to parting with their gil, you all know who im talking about with your 1-1000gil repairs)


the people hurt the most of course are the "i want to be able to do everything on my own, BUT i dont wanna have to do something that is needed to do everything on my own" which usualy ends up being crafting. of course, thats a choice they made if they dont wanna be social so they have no one to blame but themselves

My reason for crafting is to avoid the long term inconveniences of getting my rapidly degrading gear repaired every other day. Even though crafting gives me very little enjoyment it's worth it for the log run. While I'm trying to overcome the system on my own, I wonder how many other players have been put off by this. Comparing this to FFXI would be like leveling WHM solely for all the teleports so you don't need to travel to a hub city and then spend time looking for a teletaxi.
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#14 Dec 29 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Tarvu wrote:
When I played other MMO's I used to always cast myself as a former XI player. I loved that game, and I thought it had one of the best communities ever, and I was proud of my HNM credentials there. I wonder why couldn't those communities and games be more like the XI I remembered.

Now that I am playing this game with so many other "XI veterans" I see you all have become just as bad as the rest of the gamers in the world, and I hate you for it. I hate your stupid opinions about what makes an MMO good, your criticisms of XI on one hand, and then your asinine appeals to nostalgia when you people say that CoP and challenging content in XI was great and second to none, when we all know that you all ruined that game after I quit precisely because it was "too hard". You have no concept of what XI was like at launch, of what a vanilla MMO other than World of Warcraft or some other post-2005 garbage MMO was like, your ideas for this game are all 100x worse than anything Square Enix has implemented and so the best thing they could possibly do is forget how to read feedback again. Sure lots of stuff needs tuning and even 180 degree changes, but did you ever think there was a reason no one ever took your dream of going into video game development yourself seriously?



Allakhazham as a community was a laughing stock when I played XI in a hardcore HNM ls and everyone who knew anything about that game made fun of you people, putting your opinions and thoughts on XI right on par with the brady guide. Nothing has changed, don't cast yourself as a hardcore XI player when you were nothing more than an allakhazam moron. Not that elitists haven't turned to mush either, the vast majority of people who played XI who I had any respect for no longer play video games at all, because video games today (not just MMO's) are retarded.

New civilization- retarded
new fallout games- retarded
new elder scrolls- retarded
new total war games- retarded
FPS games today- retarded

XIV couldn't be XI even if the people behind it wanted it to, because you people are incapable of playing or appreciating a video game of that caliber today and products such as this are dictated by the will of the market which is to produce mindless, bland crap. Which is exactly what XI is today, and XIV has no hope of being this video gaming messiah because video gamers as a whole don't deserve it.

F-U video gamers, seriously you suck and are scum.


Troll harder furfag...
#15 Dec 29 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Default
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As a vet ffxi player with over 7 75's i agree this game is nothing like it and if ffxi graphics weren't out dated id still be playing it.

We'll just have to wait and see and hope it gets better in its own unique way, ive had game since release and have stopped logging on. I do check the lodestone daily though, but they haven't released any useful information since the old team was still on board. Just updates on mindless content that doesnt really reflect the direction of the game.
#16 Dec 29 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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Tarvu wrote:
XIV couldn't be XI even if the people behind it wanted it to, because you people are incapable of playing or appreciating a video game of that caliber today and products such as this are dictated by the will of the market which is to produce mindless, bland crap. Which is exactly what XI is today, and XIV has no hope of being this video gaming messiah because video gamers as a whole don't deserve it.


You're in the ZAM FFXIV forum complaining about video gamers as a whole? "Video gamers as a whole is a HUGE swath of people." Your argument that games have dumbed down significantly due to the influx of casual gamers is sound. Unfortunately those are the same people with money to support the game industry, people with jobs that only have 2-4 hours a day to play and can't be bothered to learn the deep game mechanics of the "caliber" of game that you speak of. This is a public forum, the proportion of FFXI "hardcore" players like you are mixed in with a good proportion of newer casual gamers.

Video games are mainstream now, if you're stuck in the past go whine about us on your own hardcore forum or whatever. We're constructively discussing issues that we the majority think are worthwhile, core issues like economy and content delivery. You seem to be focused on just deep endgame mechanics, if so go spout all you like in the proper thread. Most of us have learned to co-exist together - casual gamers and their cash are here to stay, calling us bad and swearing at us is is just mindless, bland trolling.


Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:06pm by SyniteonReflux
#17 Dec 29 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Running around the markets just to get the items I need to craft is still too time consuming than standing at an AH. With no mog house I don't want to goto the market to find my retainer either...


I dunno, if I consider my time spent standing at the AH in XI and the time spent in the market wards(since the search was added) they're not all that different. Instead of running back n forth from AH to moghouse, I simply change floors to where my retainer is in the wards. We're dealing with the intro version of the search as well. With further improvements coming, it can easily be on par with XI and even faster than XI when things are running smoothly.

As for quests, I highly doubt guildleves will be the only source forever. It sucks that they're pretty much all we've got for now, but I expect better in the future...

Quote:

My reason for crafting is to avoid the long term inconveniences of getting my rapidly degrading gear repaired every other day. Even though crafting gives me very little enjoyment it's worth it for the log run. While I'm trying to overcome the system on my own, I wonder how many other players have been put off by this.


I never intended to craft as much as I have. Repairs along with the awesome physical exp gains were my main reason for doing it early on. Then after a while it just became more interesting than other options for me so I kept doing it.(Some of that may be the solid SP gains vs the depressing SP gains of DoW/DoM/DoL outside of leves of courseSmiley: grin) Especially post r30 when the tnls get larger, finding a solid recipe that can get 300+SP is always tempting. Thinking about it as a comparison to XI in my opinion...

XIV crafting: MUCH better than XI
XIV gathering: MUCH better than XI
XIV fighting: worse than XI

Looking at it that way, it totally explains why I ended up with the class ranks I currently have. I got CON & THM ranked decently high by forcing myself to painfully grind them a bit outside of leves & behest, but usually I go for crafting or gathering instead. So for me, I've been kinda "playing the hand I was dealt" in regards to my progress. I'd like to be more excited about leveling my fighting classes...

Edited, Dec 29th 2010 4:31pm by TwistedOwl
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#18 Dec 29 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Haha perhaps we were all meant to pave the way and build an economy for the PS3 crowd
#19 Dec 29 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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SyniteonReflux wrote:
Haha perhaps we were all meant to pave the way and build an economy for the PS3 crowd


Which is what is actually going to happen, by the time we reach the console versions, this game would have evolve so much from the original release. Does this bothers me? at first, yes, but not anymore. I just try to enjoy the things it can offer. I can only play a couple of hours a day and sometimes none, so I can't bother myself to think of the bugs and distractions this game currently is suffering.
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Thus is our agreement written, thus is treaty made. Thought is the arrow of time; Memory never fades. What was asked is given; The price is paid.
#20 Dec 29 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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The main thing FFXIV is missing is FFXI's charm...I'm enjoying this game but it feels nothing like FFXI did when I logged on every day for those 3 horrible years I became an addict. Sometimes I think I should craft, "get a head start", then I look at some of those recipes and I'm overwhelmed and I don't care nearly enough to take the time or go out of my way to get things done. I guess I don't have to, I can make a good enough living in game selling loot, so that's a good thing. As for gear being craft-able only, its still too early for that isn't it? I mean AF armor didn't kick in 'til rank 50, the game was just released, I'm sure we'll be getting some unique class armor, but the thing is its the armory system that lends itself to more "versatile" equipment, more so than the crafting system loses the unique part.
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#21 Dec 31 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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FWIW I agree with most of your OP Caleberiel.

On crafting, I will say that it's actually far more in-depth than any other game I've played. This isn't necessarily bad, I do wish however that crafters could be of more use during party play - bestowing buffs to DOW/DOM players during battle (or even in passing as white mages often did prot/shell in FFXI) for instance related to their craft. I have my issues with crafting, mat costs vs. final item sale prices as well as the weird lvl20+ reqired components for lvl5 gear, etc. All in all though I think FFXIV is a fine crafting mmo. The problem is that I can't recall any installment in this series being this focused on crafting with so little focus on battle and questing. Perhaps that is part of why so many FF fans have been disappointed with this title, the gameplay here is off-code for the series.

Which brings me to the battle system. IMO the current system is completely broken. I actually preferred the skill-up system in FFXI which would have worked better in FFXIV than what we got. In FFXI casting cure spells leveled up your casting skills. In FFXIV if you wanted to level a caster you had to be swinging a staff. This has been changed so that sp is evenly distributed but I really miss the direct skill-up reward for actual job actions. Skill advancements also seem to provide little change in gameplay for me. There are a lot of other issues with DOW/DOM fighting, too many to get into here. The whole battle system feels dull and there have been threads discussing why ppl don't enjoy FFXIV and from what I've seen most of the dissatisfied users tend to be those that prefer battle jobs. From your post I'd guess you may fit into that category too.

On the questing, ya you're going to be repeating a lot of leves. I'm not sure what happened here but implementing a living environment is a lot of work, I'm not sure we'll see any major changes there for a long time if ever. Even FFXI starter cities have remained virtually unchanged since release.

I hate to say it but this simply may not be the game for you. I'm hanging on to see what the new dev team does, but at this point I'm just about ready to give up on this game and cautiously watch what SE does for FFXV if that ever comes. I'd say give this game some time to see if it grows on you, maybe watch to see what the new team puts out there. If you're looking for a good crafting mmo you'll probably be happy in FFXIV, if you're looking for something like FFXI it simply isn't here and I'm not sure SE can get there with this current game engine.
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