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Casual & You!Follow

#1 Dec 30 2010 at 2:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think this is my first thread!

First off - I'm not saying (or defending) FFXIV as a "casual friendly" game. I'm not trying to get into that argument. Frankly I'm sick of that argument (though I predict one about to ensue in this thread if it lasts more than 3 replies) so I'm making this thread about "casual gameplay."

Here's the pitch:

I believe Square Enix definition of casual play is different than the definition(s) floating around these threads. Here's my spin on it. Take it or leave it - or alternatively we can fight to the death over it.

When they opened their big mouth and said XIV was going to be more friendly to casual players, I sincerely believe they meant You can log on for 15 minutes and accomplish something.

For the record (I'm not making this up, but I can't site sources because if they existed SE probably found them and burned all records of them) - Square Enix once tried to impress upon me (as a 4 or 5 year veteran of XI) that FFXI had plenty of casual content I could share with my friends! So I should invite them in some marketing campaign to get my friends (The Mandragora Hat thing). Are they friggin kidding me?

Wall of text, but it's worth it!

Well FFXI has come along way since 2006 but here's a typical morning for me. "Oh. I don't have to go to work for another hour. XI is like crack and I need a fix so maybe I could just hop on and play until work." I believe this for all of 30 seconds. Then the next stream of thoughts come. "But wait! I'm sitting in my Mog House on White Mage. I certainly can't party on that. What can I do in an hour!? I can't switch to Summoner or Beastmaster because most of my gear is in storage. It'll take at least 10 minutes to reorganize my inventory and pick up gear I can solo in. Then!!! THEN!!! I have to get to the zone I want to solo in. Well I could chocobo there in about 40 fng minutes, no that won't do. I'll be late to work before I even get to the solo spot. Well, then I could solo when I get home. No... wait... my LS will probably want to do stuff tonight so I'll just to just death warp back and reorg my inventory back to WHM again... Well, I could ... no, you know what? I just wasted 15 minutes just thinking about this. Now I can't do anything. Guess I'll go to work early."

Now contrast the above (which I'm serious is not much of an exaggeration for effect) to how you play XIV. I can get anywhere in under 5 minutes. I can switch jobs at any time. I can literally log on in the morning. Synth for 5 minutes and go to work. Think of all I could do in an hour! I could probably do ... 2?-3 leves!?

Anyway... I believe THAT is what they meant by casual. It has nothing to do with how long it takes to get any gear or how fast you can cap your jobs. Surplus/bonus/fatigue also have nothing to do for casual play. If you bought their line that it was to help casuals keep up with hardcore - LOOK AROUND. I have several friends with 3 (count them: 3) jobs at 50. I'm not anywhere NEAR casual and I haven't even hit 40 yet. I hit surplus on 2 of my 3 jobs every week. That's how "casual" I am.

Square Enix only meant (by casual) that if you have 30 minutes, 2 hours, you can log on and get something done - which was nearly impossible for the first 75% of XI. Once Campaign followed by Field of Valor was added and yada yada - yeah XI got a bit more casual, but I'm talking about pre-Wings junk.

Questions? Comments?


Edited for clarity and great justice.


Edited, Dec 30th 2010 3:08am by Kirutaru
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Battle Mage Kiru
#2 Dec 30 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Default
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Accomplish what ? grind some more ? before you go and grind some more ? and did i mention grind again some more ?

For casual accomplishing thing's cite WOW'S model of gameplay :)
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#3 Dec 30 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Accomplish what ? grind some more ? before you go and grind some more ? and did i mention grind again some more ?

For casual accomplishing thing's cite WOW'S model of gameplay :)


what does wow have thats casual for someone to just log on for a few minutes here and there?

dailies you say?

what does that sound like....oh yeah leves


lets face is, everyone will have a different definition of accomplishing something, and in the end, no matter what game you play, EVERYTHING IS SOME FORM OF GRIND
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#4 Dec 30 2010 at 2:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nope. You already missed the point.

Accomplish: ANYTHING.

By anything I mean - You can kill 1 mob! You can do 1 synth!

Point Paraphrase: You won't be "wasting time" running to camps, switching jobs, juggling gear to suit the need, gathering materials.

Conclusion: If you have 15 minutes and you want to spend it on XIV, you will get something done (as opposed to "nothing" in XI).




-----------

Now what you're saying is (paraphrase:) fighting 1 or 10 or 100 mobs is "nothing" when you need to fight 100,000 of them to rank. Doing 1 or 10 or 100 synths is "nothing" when you have to do 1000 to hit a new rank.

You're quantifying activity by end result.

That's NOT what I'm saying.

-and like I did say, I'm not agreeing with you or SE or anyone - just saying what I think SE means when they say casual.

What CAN'T you do in 15 minutes?

...and I don't mean "I can't get from Rank 49 to 50 in 15 minutes nor can I kill 30,000 Coblyn in 15 minutes."

I mean - You have 15 minutes. You want to hop on and craft for 90% of that time. You're main is Goldsmith but OH SNAP You're all the way out in EBF Mor Dhona on Gladiator! What will you do!? Well, you'll take 30 seconds to hit Teleport and go to town. Take 30-60 seconds to run to the leve desk and pick up a Goldsmith leve. You'll find a cozy place to sit. Swap your weapon which you probably have on you (and if not, you'll take 30-90 seconds grabbing it from your retainer located conveniently near the Leve desk) and you'll fng pump out 10-12 minutes worth of crafts.

You're not going to say "Man! I only have an hour. I can't even change jobs and get to the zone I need to be at in that amount of time!" (like XI)
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#5 Dec 30 2010 at 2:23 AM Rating: Default
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Vedis wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Accomplish what ? grind some more ? before you go and grind some more ? and did i mention grind again some more ?

For casual accomplishing thing's cite WOW'S model of gameplay :)


what does wow have thats casual for someone to just log on for a few minutes here and there?

dailies you say?

what does that sound like....oh yeah leves


lets face is, everyone will have a different definition of accomplishing something, and in the end, no matter what game you play, EVERYTHING IS SOME FORM OF GRIND


Dailies ? Lmao!

How about more along the lines of 20 dungeons(For all your level range's) Cap lvl dungeons in normal(For the more casual crowd) and heroic version if you want a quick hard challenge, you dont wanna pve ? Fine! You can do normal Battlegrounds, or you can try your luck at the new rated Battleground system, or if you wanna get a few arena matches you can too :)

You like to collect things ? go collect pet's, go collect achivement's all causual friendly (Except the really hard ones XD!)

So yeah like you where saying, FFXIV offers all that right ?
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#6 Dec 30 2010 at 2:26 AM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Vedis wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Accomplish what ? grind some more ? before you go and grind some more ? and did i mention grind again some more ?

For casual accomplishing thing's cite WOW'S model of gameplay :)


what does wow have thats casual for someone to just log on for a few minutes here and there?

dailies you say?

what does that sound like....oh yeah leves


lets face is, everyone will have a different definition of accomplishing something, and in the end, no matter what game you play, EVERYTHING IS SOME FORM OF GRIND


Dailies ? Lmao!

How about more along the lines of 20 dungeons(For all your level range's) Cap lvl dungeons in normal(For the more casual crowd) and heroic version if you want a quick hard challenge, you dont wanna pve ? Fine! You can do normal Battlegrounds, or you can try your luck at the new rated Battleground system, or if you wanna get a few arena matches you can too :)

You like to collect things ? go collect pet's, go collect achivement's all causual friendly (Except the really hard ones XD!)

So yeah like you where saying, FFXIV offers all that right ?


so your telling me, in 30 minutes, you can get on, form a party, and do an entire dungeon at endgame? I call BS right there on that one
by the time you get the party formed and to the dungeon, you are well out of time.

as i said, it all depends on what you consider an accomplishment, in 30 minutes on 14, i can get on, and earn 5k skill points in any 1 job.....very easily, now thats an accomplishment to me, and to MANY others.
to you maybe not, maybe you dont think of leveling as anything, and unfortunately warcraft has put that into alot of peoples minds, when leveling really is nothing and the game is only about the endgame


also, lets not compare wow now to ffxiv now, lets compare wow 3 months in to 14 now, cuz thats the true comparison, and guess what....i bet you cant find ANY differences now can you?

get on, get some exp, your done

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 12:27am by Vedis
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#7 Dec 30 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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I'm with Vedis (obviously) on this one.

Everything you just listed to do in WoW doesn't seem like something you could just hop on and do in 15-30 minutes.

Maybe if you logged out at the spot and had a group waiting for you to get going. I didn't really play enough WoW to be a good judge on that...

but what if you're logged out in town? How long does it take you to GET to a dungeon you can solo? if more than 10 minutes ... sorry, too long.

For the record: I only compared XIV to the game (I believe) SE was comparing to which is XI. I never said WoW wasn't a good model. When I did play WoW and I did have an hour to play an MMO guess which one I played: XI or WoW. Hint: Not a trick question.

Though I'll tell you when I had 3+ hours to play an MMO I was 100% on XI.
Now when I have 15 minutes to play an MMO (or 10 hours for that matter), I'm 100% on XIV

That's what they meant by "casual friendly."
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Battle Mage Kiru
#8Ostia, Posted: Dec 30 2010 at 2:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Do you even know WTF you talking about ? with the LFG tool i can get a party and clear a dungeon in less than 30mins(Normal mode) or win/lose a BG(Maybe 2 or 3 depending on said BG)
#9Ostia, Posted: Dec 30 2010 at 2:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) But of course it can, this is 2010, not 1999 <.< The LFG tool lets you party with people across different servers :) and it will teleport you to the entrance of said dungeon :) There is no walking, no hiking no nothing, you just sign up into the LFG and wait to get a group thats it :) that tool also works for PVP, it lets you participate in any number of battlegrounds with people across many servers so that you can always get a quick group.
#10 Dec 30 2010 at 2:53 AM Rating: Good
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You're derailing my thread.

You're saying WoW is better than XIV (at casual gameplay).

La-di-da. No one said it wasn't. We questioned your assessment of time management on WoW but if you say you can do that junk in 15 minutes, awesome - last time I played that game there was no cross-server group joining or flying mounts or whatever other convenient short cuts they've made to make the game accessible to people with sensation only in their right index finger.

I simply don't care if there are other games that do it better.

I'm trying to get people to stop saying XIV isn't casual friendly because... there's no way to form a party (untrue), the SP system is broken (untrue), the amount of xp needed to level is ridiculously high (irrelevant).

Casual means you can do something in a short period of time.

Whether or not you think that "something" is worthwhile is up to you (the player). I'm not going to lord over all gaming activities and judge what is worthwhile for everyone and what isn't or what game you should play in your 15 minutes. I don't care. If you have 15 minutes, go raid a dungeon on WoW or you could pick up a few leves at 1 (maybe 2) camp and knock them out.

It's casual.

"5. irregular; occasional: a casual visitor"
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Battle Mage Kiru
#11 Dec 30 2010 at 2:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I believe ff14 will evolve to be better also. ff14 is pretty casual. Now if content is created to make every level fun and its activities relevant, (like bcnm) and alleviate the arbitrary concepts of 'life after level cap' players, it'll be awesome.





Edited, Dec 30th 2010 3:57am by renmabiao
#12 Dec 30 2010 at 3:02 AM Rating: Default
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Kirutaru wrote:
I'm with Vedis (obviously) on this one.

Everything you just listed to do in WoW doesn't seem like something you could just hop on and do in 15-30 minutes.


Doesn't seem like? So you haven't really played it? Just like Vedis obviously hasn't played it? Blizzard designs dungeons with the idea in mind that the entire process from buff to last loot takes well under an hour with a half decent group. We're not talking about raids and obviously if you've only got 15 minutes to play you're not going to be looking for a dungeon group but there are still dailies and other quests you can do that only take a few minutes each...not really any different from leves. If you've got 30 minutes to play there are some dungeons you can do and with the dungeon finder feature, depending on your role you can be matched with a group and ported to the dungeon buffing to start in well under 5 mins.

XIV in three months isn't going to hold a candle to WoW. There's just no way SE can fix all the issues players are complaining about AND add sufficient content to keep people happy. XIV is a two trick pony right now: leves and grinding. You could equate that to WoW's quests and grinding, even though nobody ever really grinds most PvE content because they don't have to...there's plenty of quest content to keep them moving forward with a measure of diversity that SE is miles away form providing with XIV. And then add to it dungeons, achievements, and geez...that whole entire segment of WoW that XIV fully and completely lacks which is PvP and even pretending like XIV is ever going to stand up to WoW in terms of diversity is...laughable.

I'm not talking about better. I'm not talking about preference. I don't give a rat's *** if you don't like PvP or think WoW's quests are shallow and stupid or or or or or. It doesn't matter. I'm talking the simple, objectively quantifiable aspect of variety in content. XIV is an empty world waiting for content to be added. WoW is a fully fleshed out world with abundant content and more being added on a quarterly basis. When SE adds something to XIV...anything...Blizzard will just be adding more to WoW. Nothing -> something vs lots of something -> more. It's not a comparison.

You could have had a great discussion here if you had just steered clear of pretending like you were in a position to compare the two games but you just had to go there, didn't you?
#13 Dec 30 2010 at 3:02 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Casual means you can do something in a short period of time.

Whether or not you think that "something" is worthwhile is up to you (the player).


This is the same thing SE could say to me when I laughed at them for trying to say XI had plenty of casual things to offer players. They could say it again and I'd still laugh.

What could I do in 15 minutes in XI from 2003-2006? Walk from Mog House to Auction House?

Maybe I could walk over to the Chocobo stable and check my chocobo chick (if I spam enter through 5 minutes of text EVERY FNG TIME).

Maybe I could craft in XI for 15 minutes - if I spent 2-4 hours scouring the planet for materials at some point earlier.

The thing is though there's no stipulation on the things you can do in XIV. Thanks to leves - Love them or hate them. If you have 15 minutes you can grind SP, craft, gather and accomplish something (even though it will be a drop in the bucket, but its still something). XI there was -literally- nothing you could do in 15 minutes unless you spent an hour or more preparing for it beforehand and that's not the idea of "casual."
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#14Ostia, Posted: Dec 30 2010 at 3:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Sure, in FFXIV you can log in for 15 minutes and do something totally irrelevant, that is true, can you party ? last time i checked party's where hard to come by, you can indeed go and grab 1 or 2 leaves and get a few SP towards your gazillion needed to level up, because that's casual friendly right ? Lmao! Btw: Leaves are not an accomplishment, they are repeatable quest, easy to do, they are not more of an accomplishment that any daily in Wow.
#15 Dec 30 2010 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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Way to jump on the derail bandwagon Aurelius.

I typically enjoy your well thought out posts.

No I haven't played WoW since early early early 2005. If you read my post, you'd see I deferred to Ostia's expertise in my very next post when he had assured me I was incorrect.

Perhaps you started your WoW rally cheer post before these replies, but regardless...


WoW HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.
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#16 Dec 30 2010 at 3:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Kirutaru wrote:
Way to jump on the derail bandwagon Aurelius.

I typically enjoy your well thought out posts.

No I haven't played WoW since early early early 2005. If you read my post, you'd see I deferred to Ostia's expertise in my very next post when he had assured me I was incorrect.

Perhaps you started your WoW rally cheer post before these replies, but regardless...


WoW HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.


Btw i wanted to point out, that i do agree with your statement, FFXIV is indeed leaps and bounds more casual friendly than XI in what you do point out, where i beg to differ is in the quality of content and things to do casual's can do in a very short time.
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#17 Dec 30 2010 at 3:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Sure, in FFXIV you can log in for 15 minutes and do something totally irrelevant, that is true, can you party ? last time i checked party's where hard to come by, you can indeed go and grab 1 or 2 leaves and get a few SP towards your gazillion needed to level up, because that's casual friendly right ? Lmao! Btw: Leaves are not an accomplishment, they are repeatable quest, easy to do, they are not more of an accomplishment that any daily in Wow.


What's irrelevant about grinding? You can't lose experience (like XI) so even if you get 15 skill points (out of 75,000) then it wasn't irrelevant. You got it. Again, you're using some personal assessment of relevance and quality. Quality isn't being judged here. Just whether or not you CAN (as opposed to absolutely CANNOT) log on and get something done.

You say you can't party in 15-30 minutes. Well, before the SP update I got parties in 10 minutes and was grinding for about 30 minutes and then leaving (if I had to go). It was TOTALLY casual. No one even cared. It was great. As things are now, I 100% agree with you on partying, but what could you even get done in a party that you can't do alone (in 15 minutes to an hour that is). There's no need to party, so saying you can't do it is actually listing an irrelevant thing you can't do. I agree, though, you probably can't get a party together in 15-20 minutes the way the game is currently set up. 1 point to Ostia on topic. :)

You saying leves are not an accomplishment is another matter of personal definition. I'm not saying doing leves makes a difference in the grand scheme of 75,000 TNR. I'm only saying (and I say again) you can jump on and do it. You're not going to be trapped doing nothing because you can't change jobs from Gladiator to Goldsmith in 15 minutes. You can actually do it in 10 seconds.

I don't know what a "daily" in WoW is but if it's anything like a Leve then it is an accomplishment, however minor. Probably not worth getting ****** drunk over completing, am I right? But it's something to do in a short amount of time for a casual player and it does progress them towards some goal, I imagine. It's not (as you say) completely 100% irrelevant.

Quote:
This game is not casual friendly, most people confirmed this with their wallet, there is a 12 million plus player base that is 90% casual, yet this game has around 100K sub players Max! Guess casual's don't agree with you :)


This game is casual friendly. People's wallets simply say the content (leves, I guess) aren't fun and they don't want to spend their 15 minutes to 10 hours doing them. They'd rather do 15 minute dungeons in WoW on Heroic for a challenge. That's fine, but don't say that loss of sales means it's not "casual friendly." It just means people (whoever they are casual/hardcore) don't like the content that was provided.

How does the word "friendly" imply successful to you? It just means if you're the kind of guy who has 2 hours a night to spare, don't worry - you won't have to ride your Chocobo or White Tiger or whatever for 25+ minutes. You can just jump on and get into the action in (probably less than) 5 minutes. Do what you can in 2 hours and call it a night.

Are you going to level every night? every week? Nope. You sure aren't, but as long as you aren't discouraged by that, you'll have a casual experience.

People just didn't like the experience (though it is casual).
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#18 Dec 30 2010 at 3:18 AM Rating: Default
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Kirutaru wrote:
Way to jump on the derail bandwagon Aurelius.

I typically enjoy your well thought out posts.

No I haven't played WoW since early early early 2005. If you read my post, you'd see I deferred to Ostia's expertise in my very next post when he had assured me I was incorrect.

Perhaps you started your WoW rally cheer post before these replies, but regardless...


WoW HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD.


Don't jump on the QQ derail bandwagon when you contributed to it. If you didn't want WoW to be discussed in this thread, you shouldn't have responded to mention of WoW. And if you're going to start a thread about what constitutes casual MMORPG gameplay and think that at any point in time you can expect WoW to not be mentioned, you're deluded. You're defending XIV's casual appeal. I can defend the fertilizer applications of ********* as a benefit to the environment and sustainable agriculture but at the end of the day I'm still defending **********

Ya, you can log on to FFXIV for 15 minutes and accomplish something. And if you stay longer than 15 minutes you're probably going to end up doing the exact same thing you did in the first 15 minutes over and over ad nauseum. There's no meat to the game. Leves or grinding. Leves or grinding. Paper or plastic. Electric chair or lethal injection. Yay for binary choices?
#19 Dec 30 2010 at 3:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Don't jump on the QQ derail bandwagon when you contributed to it.


Oh and here I thought you were jumping on the "I must defend WoW at all costs" bandwagon. I didn't realize there was a derail bandwagon. Though talking about WoW in a thread intended to define "casual" gameplay (as Square Enix intended it when they said FFXIV WILL BE CASUAL FRIENDLY!). WoW's casual gameplay is irrelevant.

My "contribution" was to say I don't believe Ostia could do all those things he said in 15-30 minutes. Then he said he could. Then I said ok I guess you can then, but its irrelevant to the topic.

Quote:
If you didn't want WoW to be discussed in this thread, you shouldn't have responded to mention of WoW. And if you're going to start a thread about what constitutes casual MMORPG gameplay and think that at any point in time you can expect WoW to not be mentioned, you're deluded.


Mention WoW to your heart's content. It simply has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, though. So we can continue this mindless derail and rampant WoW defending but WoW isn't even on trial. Nor is its casual gameplay.

Quote:
You're defending XIV's casual appeal.


I'm doing no such thing. I'm defining what I think Square Enix meant when they used the phrase "casual friendly." As Ostia pointed out and I agree (with my modification to his statement): People's wallets determine the appeal and clearly its not very appealing. It doesn't mean it isn't casual.

Quote:
I can defend the fertilizer applications of horsesh*t as a benefit to the environment and sustainable agriculture but at the end of the day I'm still defending horsesh*t.


Much like you can say FFXIV's casual friendly content isn't fun and not many people want to experience it, but you can't say it isn't casual friendly or content. :)

Quote:
Ya, you can log on to FFXIV for 15 minutes and accomplish something.


Okay! We agree! It's casual friendly.

Quote:
And if you stay longer than 15 minutes you're probably going to end up doing the exact same thing you did in the first 15 minutes over and over ad nauseum. There's no meat to the game. Leves or grinding. Leves or grinding. Paper or plastic. Electric chair or lethal injection. Yay for binary choices?


Well I play the game for 5-10 hours a day (since Nov 25 update). I do a lot of repetitive actions but not ever 15 minutes is exactly the same in my experience. I happen to like the content, but I understand many people don't. Don't worry, though, WoW servers are still up and apparently there's plenty of things you can do over there if you're limited on time. :D

I don't get why you're jumping my **** here. Apparently you agree with everything I said except 1 assumption I made about WoW which I then retracted.

And even though you are contributing to a derail of my thread's intention it doesn't mean I can't enjoy the back and forth banter or call it a derailment (which it is).

This entire thread is (supposed to be) about definitions of terms and the relative nature of words, I guess. "Casual" is relative but I think SE meant "You can do something in 15 minutes." They never said it would be fun, though. Haha. Jokes on us.
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#20 Dec 30 2010 at 3:51 AM Rating: Default
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Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
Don't jump on the QQ derail bandwagon when you contributed to it.


Oh and here I thought you were jumping on the "I must defend WoW at all costs" bandwagon. I didn't realize there was a derail bandwagon. Though talking about WoW in a thread intended to define "casual" gameplay (as Square Enix intended it when they said FFXIV WILL BE CASUAL FRIENDLY!). WoW's casual gameplay is irrelevant.

My "contribution" was to say I don't believe Ostia could do all those things he said in 15-30 minutes. Then he said he could. Then I said ok I guess you can then, but its irrelevant to the topic.


It's not irrelevant. Maybe you're hoping it's irrelevant because acknowledging it would undermine your argument. This isn't an arcade game (even though many aspects of it resemble one). It's an RPG. RPGs are about progression. They're about moving forward not for the sake of moving forward but for the sake of experiencing the world and the story and the content. In that regard, XIV is not casual friendly because the content is so little and the grind between snippets of content is so great. I've got one nation mission left before I've exhausted all of the nation mission content currently in the game and in order to get to that mission, I've got to grind for dozens upon dozens of hours on a combat class or do about 1500 synths (at 16 shards/synth). Content? What content? It's not an RPG without content. It's not an RPG without story. It's not an RPG without a progression of abilities and environments and goals. Those are things at the heart of all RPGs, online or off, and those are things that some development studios do well at and some fail horribly at. SE is on the failure side of that.

So you can kill mobs around your rank regardless of what rank your combat class is in XIV and that, to you, makes the game casual? SE has succeeded in making a casual game because they've tuned mobs for solo play instead of party play? Really? If the goal is to fill an empty bucket and XI gave you no means to do so without a party but XIV gives you an eye dropper, that makes it casual? I think your definition of casual is extremely narrow. And with your backpedaling and "QQ stop derailing my thread" I think you've rendered your original point moot.
#21 Dec 30 2010 at 4:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
Sure, in FFXIV you can log in for 15 minutes and do something totally irrelevant, that is true, can you party ? last time i checked party's where hard to come by,


Erm I log on at 8pm, port to camp horizon or wherever, behest with 15 people, finished at 8:15 at the latest and have gained 3-4k sp. seems like a good party to me. 15mins job done.
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#22 Dec 30 2010 at 4:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
It's not irrelevant. Maybe you're hoping it's irrelevant because acknowledging it would undermine your argument.


I'm not sure what "it" is in this situation. I said WoW's casual gameplay is irrelevant to my point because I'm talking about Square Enix's meaning of the phrase "casual gameplay" when talking about XIV (and relating it to XI). You go on to talk about RPG genre and XIV specifically, but at no point do you attempt to explain to me how WoW's gameplay is relevant to my topic.

You can use WoW (or any game you want) to illustrate a point, but honestly since I'm talking about words that came out of SE's PR department and/or ad campaign about XIV (and contrasting it to their other game, XI) I don't see the relevance of other games.

Quote:
(RPGs are) about moving forward not for the sake of moving forward but for the sake of experiencing the world and the story and the content. In that regard, XIV is not casual friendly...


You are presenting a totally NEW (and widely used) definition of "casual friendly."
You are exactly the person I am trying to reach out (and strangle with words!).

Your definition is true, but it's not what SE meant when they said "casual friendly."

FFXIV takes a lot of determination to reach the level cap. Can a casual gamer reach that cap if they ONLY play 2 hours a day? Yes. They could. Can you argue this?

Could a casual gamer reach 75 in XI if they could ONLY play 2 hours a day? I admit maybe nowadays in 2008-2010 content (SMN Burn, Abyssea) but 2002-2008 no way. Only Beastmaster (and arguably Dragoon if you weren't a jackass) could hope to get ANYTHING done in 2 hours a day - and they weren't the most appreciated jobs or worthwhile jobs in end game (for most of those years). I would admit by the definition I'm presenting XI's Beastmaster was perhaps casual friendly in XI, but that's about it. That's pretty limiting for an MMO.

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...because the content is so little and the grind between snippets of content is so great. I've got one nation mission left before I've exhausted all of the nation mission content currently in the game and in order to get to that mission, I've got to grind for dozens upon dozens of hours on a combat class or do about 1500 synths (at 16 shards/synth).


It takes a long time. Casual players can still attain it, though. Assuming they don't get discouraged by the ridiculous amount of time it would take them to accomplish it. I'm sure most would/do unless they only play for some artificial/personal stimulus like chatting with friends or watching pretty sunsets.

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Content? What content? It's not an RPG without content. It's not an RPG without story. It's not an RPG without a progression of abilities and environments and goals. Those are things at the heart of all RPGs, online or off, and those are things that some development studios do well at and some fail horribly at. SE is on the failure side of that.


FFXIV has leves (daily quests) and storyline quests. It's content. Bare bones? Yes, but it's still content. Does it leave a lot to be desired? Yes, it does, but it's content and story nonetheless. This is a real annoying argument right here (the "no content" argument). Yeah, there's not much to work with - I agree - but it's still there. Are people upset that there isn't more or that they can't get it as quickly as they want? Yes and that's why people aren't playing it.

Saying SE fails at story is a matter of opinion. Not really sales. At least, it's hard to argue that sales are a result of failing at story. Content failure, yes, of course. Anyway, I agree with you personally that SE is failing at story for the entire decade 2001-2010 but that's just my opinion (and it hasn't influenced by sales yet but I don't plan to buy XV on release. I want some reviews first, this time, for the first time ever in my life history with FF titles). Anyway, let's try our best to separate facts (financial failure) from unfounded assumptions (story failure).

Agree it is definitely indicative of "content failure" though because if the content isn't good, worthwhile, fun, engaging, entertaining - then it doesn't sell. Fail.

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So you can kill mobs around your rank regardless of what rank your combat class is in XIV and that, to you, makes the game casual? SE has succeeded in making a casual game because they've tuned mobs for solo play instead of party play? Really? If the goal is to fill an empty bucket and XI gave you no means to do so without a party but XIV gives you an eye dropper, that makes it casual?


I was saying you're not going to soak up time getting from Point A to B or changing job X to Y or swapping C set of gear with Z set. There are some (possibly unintentional) time sinks in XI that made playing for 20 minutes impossible. XIV corrects this. What you do in that 20 minutes or how much of your bucket it fills is not important (to this definition).

To your definition it is important and with your definition I agree.

It has nothing to do with solo play. As I said before parties before Nov 25 were more popular and I found a party within 5 minutes. Got my stuff together and teleported to said party within another 5 minutes. I would grind anywhere from 20 minutes to 4 hours, but forming a party and getting to it was the least amount of time spent. Try and convince me (no, don't really, cause it would waste everyone's time) that "forming a party" and "getting to the camp" were the shortest amounts of time you spent partying in XI (on average).

People don't party right now and that's an inherent flaw of the SP system. If parties were forming, I'm sure they would form faster and gather faster than XI thus making them more casual friendly. It's just not the way the game is played right now.

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I think your definition of casual is extremely narrow. And with your backpedaling and "QQ stop derailing my thread" I think you've rendered your original point moot.


No! You think my interpretation of Square Enix's definition is extremely narrow!

My definition is probably closer to yours. I think artificial time wasters such as gigantic XP curves combined with Surplus/Fatigue or 400 Faction points to get a small chance at a pretty crappy item are terrible, terrible, terrible design choices for a game that "assured us" (though I took it with a grain of salt to begin with) that casuals could have just as much fun as hardcores in XIV.

OBVIOUSLY (lol when people use that word) Square Enix is using a different definition than us and I think I know what that definition is.

I have presented it.

I have not back pedaled.

I questioned the integrity of 1 person's assertion.

That you could do all this in a short 30 minute session:

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How about more along the lines of 20 dungeons(For all your level range's) Cap lvl dungeons in normal(For the more casual crowd) and heroic version if you want a quick hard challenge, you dont wanna pve ? Fine! You can do normal Battlegrounds, or you can try your luck at the new rated Battleground system, or if you wanna get a few arena matches you can too


I didn't believe that was accurate. Ostia told me it was accurate. I still don't know, but since I don't play WoW (not since 2005) I said I'd take his word for it.

That's not back pedaling, man. It's just challenging facts and then standing corrected. I know that's a rare sequence of events on the internet forums. LOL - Admitting you were wrong and not defending something to the death? Who does that?

Anyway, my original post is exactly what I am still saying. It hasn't wavered.
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#23 Dec 30 2010 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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The reason I started this thread is to explain WHY (I think) SE said casual friendly.

People say things like "People with no life can sit around and spam 1 1 1 1 1 1 for 16 hours and get multiple jobs to R50 but I'm stuck in the 30s and struggling to level. Then they tell me the SP isn't broken and the game is casual friendly."

You understand what's wrong with that statement?

Casual players should not be competing with Hardcore players. It's absurd!

I think the real cause of this situation is that little blurb thrown around (presumably started by SE to defend themselves in a stupid way) about how hitting surplus would slow Hardcore down and give Casuals a fighting chance.

^ This is a typical Tanaka ******** lie. It does no such thing. It's to slow down people from hitting R50 too fast, but it sure as **** does nothing to help casuals keep up. The fatigue would have to zero-out at 2-3 hours (a day) rather than 120,000 SP (in a week).

And even then, hardcores play every day where as casuals probably can't. They still lose in this tremendously evil version of a way to stop hardcore players from surpassing casuals (in 1 job, mind you; they'd still have all 20 classes to 30 and the casual would only have 1 MAYBE 2 classes to 30).

Anyway, XIV is casual friendly only from the perspective of what you can do (not accomplish) in short bursts. You aren't barred from anything based on how much you play.

It's incredibly harsh on casual players if they expect to be doing end-game with hard core players (and I lol at them if they think they will be based on Tanaka's evil lies).
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#24 Dec 30 2010 at 4:57 AM Rating: Default
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Kirutaru wrote:
Quote:
It's not irrelevant. Maybe you're hoping it's irrelevant because acknowledging it would undermine your argument.


I'm not sure what "it" is in this situation. I said WoW's casual gameplay is irrelevant to my point because I'm talking about Square Enix's meaning of the phrase "casual gameplay" when talking about XIV (and relating it to XI). You go on to talk about RPG genre and XIV specifically, but at no point do you attempt to explain to me how WoW's gameplay is relevant to my topic.

You can use WoW (or any game you want) to illustrate a point, but honestly since I'm talking about words that came out of SE's PR department and/or ad campaign about XIV (and contrasting it to their other game, XI) I don't see the relevance of other games.


So you started a thread to present us with a wall-o-text to say...what, exactly? There was never an ad campaign for XIV. There were interviews with the developers who may or may not have received some coaching from the PR department on what to say and what not to say. They said that XI involved "too much time" and that they wanted XIV to be more about "do what you want" and that XIV was originally conceived as an idea to make the best FF title to date which eventually evolved into a new MMO. But XIV isn't about do what you want. It's about do what leves you can before you're out of leves for the reset and do behest when you're around when it's starting and get a spot in the party and then do...nothing. Grind. Wee.

Big deal? This warranted a new thread with you getting all up in arms about derailing and WoW and whatever because...why? Because you think two years after the fact it warranted a rehash? Help me out here.

The underpinning philosophy behind XIV was not casual appeal or casual accessibility. The underpinning concept behind XIV was to make the best FF title in the history of the franchise. And as part of the evolution of the concept after it was decided that it should be an MMO came the conclusion that it should be more casually accessible than XI. We can clearly see that they fell so far short of the 'best FF title in the franchise' by...miles. So anything that they may or may not have meant or may or may not have been thinking is largely irrelevant.

Because if what you're trying to say is that SE thinks that what they gave us is on target with what they intended, you're just being a jerk. Nobody knows better than SE that they ****** this one up with stunning efficiency. Are you trying to be funny? Do you actually think you had something to say that warranted a thread about it? And then come around and declare to people that they're derailing your thread and how dare you bring up this other game that I will now pretend to know something about all the while we'll discuss something that is nothing but at the same time important enough that thou shalt not derail or discuss WoW or...

...pointless thread is pointless?

Quote:
Quote:
(RPGs are) about moving forward not for the sake of moving forward but for the sake of experiencing the world and the story and the content. In that regard, XIV is not casual friendly...


You are presenting a totally NEW (and widely used) definition of "casual friendly."
You are exactly the person I am trying to reach out (and strangle with words!).

Your definition is true, but it's not what SE meant when they said "casual friendly."


It's pretty obvious by now that what SE meant (aka what they intended to offer) and what we got are on entirely different planets. To then turn around and say that what we got is what they intended and therefore this is what they must have meant...

So your toilet is plugged up and you call the plumber and say, "My toilet is plugged" and he says, "okay, I'll come over and try to get it flowing for you again." And in the process of trying to get it flowing his pipe wrench falls out of his tool belt and cracks the bowl so he says, "well ****, I guess I owe you a new toilet" and you say, "So when you said you'd come over and get it flowing again I think what you meant to say is you were going to come over and replace it because a new toilet won't be plugged." And he says, "No, I was going to try and snake it and then **** happened and now I'm going to replace it because I broke it." And you say, "Well, my friend just put in a new toilet because his wife dropped her deodorant in it and they couldn't get it out so they had to replace it so I think that's what you meant was replace it" and the plumber says, "Are you ******* stupid? What part of this are you not understanding?"

We didn't get what SE originally intended to give us. That means you can't look at what we've got and try to draw ridiculous conclusions about what they meant. They meant to flush away the crap that was FFXI but all they managed to do was crack the bowl so now we're waiting for a new toilet.
#25 Dec 30 2010 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
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I feel like you're arguing just to argue. I'm practically agreeing with you at every turn (because I never had an argument to begin with) and you're still popping up to tear apart my choice of words and my BOLD assumption that PR dept coached interviews.

You can't even answer direct questions like how is WoW relevant to my topic? You instead jump to new pointless (derailing) arguments.

We also have different definitions of "ad campaigns" too because if ads exist and a game is being hyped, it's a campaign. You admit regularly (in the very post in question) the game was being hyped. Anyway... I can't even bring myself to quote you because your argument is so shallow but I'll try to address your paragraphs 1 by 1 again.

-----

1. I started a thread to express my interpretation of SE's use of the phrase "casual friendly." I hoped people would understand there are two sides of the coin and SE can say it and mean one thing and players can be outraged because it doesn't mean what they hoped it meant (whatever that is). The rest of paragraph 1 is ridiculous.

2. It warranted a new thread because it was on my mind and all I see are the same old arguments back and forth wherein the "casual friendly/unfriendly" argument is one of meanings of words and other semantic nonsense. Both sides are right. The game is casual friendly because all content is accessible. It's unfriendly because everything takes an ungodly amount of time/effort (with no tangible reward) and it's a huge deterrent to the "casual" crowd its supposed to be accessible to. You understand?

2.01 At no point was I up in arms about anything, especially derails or WoW. I was simply trying to keep the fng thread on topic beyond the first 2 posts (where it already derailed). Is that so wrong? I'm not up in arms even now. I'm just having a ... debate? where I'm saying one thing and no one is disagreeing with me, yet (you & I in particular) are still "arguing" an argument I'm not aware of.

3. Historical details of the evolution of the philosophy behind XIV mumbo jumbo has no relevance on what they meant when they said "casual friendly." OR if it does, you certainly didn't bother to illustrate how or why. Furthermore if you feel "anything that they may or may not have meant or may or may not have been thinking is largely irrelevant" then get out of the thread cause that's all I'm discussing. Attempted to, anyway. People are still saying it is/isn't casual friendly so the words must mean something to someone or no one would be talking about it. Especially us.

4.
Quote:
Because if what you're trying to say is that SE thinks that what they gave us is on target with what they intended, you're just being a jerk. Nobody knows better than SE that they @#%^ed this one up with stunning efficiency. Are you trying to be funny? Do you actually think you had something to say that warranted a thread about it? And then come around and declare to people that they're derailing your thread and how dare you bring up this other game that I will now pretend to know something about all the while we'll discuss something that is nothing but at the same time important enough that thou shalt not derail or discuss WoW or pointless thread is pointless?


I'm trying to say (have said) SE said casual friendly and meant casual accessible (to borrow the term you used, and hopefully using it correctly). There is nothing in XIV that a casual gamer can't do. At least, not yet. There's no statement on whether or not it will take an ungodly amount of time; just that casual can do anything a hardcore can do including Rank to 50 and fight Faction NMs.

It has nothing to do with what they intended or how successful they were at selling it.

It's not a joke and you are not the judge of what threads are worthwhile and what aren't. You could practice self-restraint and not post arguments in threads you don't think are worthwhile or you don't understand so that they simply fade away into oblivion. Alternatively you could report it to mods for whatever reason you think it's not worth being posted. I think it's worth being posted or I wouldn't have posted it.

I like how this is turning slowly into a personal attack because I'm holding my ground stubbornly, but you're running out of real, relevant arguments. It's probably difficult to argue with someone who agrees with you 100% as far as I can see.

I did not pretend to know anything about WoW. I simply doubted the credibility of a statement. I love how you're still getting in all your jabs to defend WoW to the death even though no one has attacked it. I've even welcomed it and challenged you to shed light on its relevance and you decline.

I started this thread. I can attempt to keep it on topic. As far as I know there's no rule saying I can't. Any particular reason you want to derail it? Do you think discussing which game has a better casual content is a better argument to have (even though no one argued against it)? If so, you also have the power to start threads. You exercise that ability regularly.

5. I agree with you and I said no such thing.

6. Random nonsense bordering on personal attack. I thought this is what SE meant by "casual friendly" from the first time I laughed at it (knowing SE is incapable of such a notion). I knew it was a Tanaka-ism. Creating a little scenario where I misconstrue reality and intention is far from the truth.

7. "We didn't get what SE originally intended to give us." You work for SE? You know what they intended? Maybe Tanaka thinks XIV is the best FF ever made. Fans disagree. You're pretending you know intention based on delivered product, why can't I?

"That means you can't look at what we've got and try to draw ridiculous conclusions about what they meant." Why not? You are! Developer says best game ever! News flash: It isn't! This happens all the time. I can draw whatever conclusions I want and so can you.

...but the fact remains, I drew this conclusion a year and a half ago. As I said, Tanaka once tried to tell me XI was casual friendly. I didn't make that up. I really read those words as a description of XI. So when I read it as a hype for XIV, I lol'd and I'm still lol'ng (mixed with weeping) but it doesn't mean I can't speculate why Tanaka would say something so outrageous (other than he has a brain defect or is a compulsive liar).

I think he meant the game would be designed so people with limited time wouldn't feel left out.

That's it, man. There's no song/dance or flashy card trick. It was a pretty simple assertion and I was only stating it so other people might step back and see it from outside the box. Inside the box is still crap. I'm just talking about the sugar coating Tanaka wrapped it in (with words and promises).

Sorry you're having such a hard time with this thread.
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#26 Dec 30 2010 at 6:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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lol,

Aurelius is like this zam policeman, smiting away. He's a person that can write in a nice way but I think he enjoys absolute stands somehow. The Chinese have a saying, "Give a man a back road to leave embarrassment". Nobody convinces with an antagonistic approach.

Let's 'stay on target' guys.

#27 Dec 30 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Spent night out with friends, had good takeaway, saw a movie. Arrived home it was almost on the hour. Logged into game signed up for behest, formed a small party of 10 people to do behest. Completed behest in 10-12 minutes (after initial 5 minute form up time) earned little short of 4000 SP. Logged off, checked forums, saw this thread. Thought I'll post this. Pillow time! Casual Friendly?

Edit: Oops I just saw metin posted something similar to this. I guess I'm not the only one that manages to find these super sekret methods of casual play to squeeze in short time periods. >_>

Edited, Dec 30th 2010 8:46am by fallout386
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#28 Dec 30 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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this game is entirely WAY more casual than any other mmo i've ever seen. they give you crafting leves that GIVE you mats for FREE. gathering spots are not COMPETED over. you can change jobs ANYWHERE. tons of inventory space. you can teleport anywhere anytime. leves are gathered at one location, not all over town from a hundred different npcs. etc etc.

the fact that people that play more pass you in level should not be a concern to others. you are both given the same opportunity.

if they wanted to make more casual leveling, they'd do what Aion did and I believe wow... been years since i played... by giving you a buff when you log in based on how much time you were logged out that allows you to gain an extra percentage more xp or in this case sp.
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#29 Dec 30 2010 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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TempLoop wrote:
if they wanted to make more casual leveling, they'd do what Aion did and I believe wow... been years since i played... by giving you a buff when you log in based on how much time you were logged out that allows you to gain an extra percentage more xp or in this case sp.


Isn't Guardian Favour just another form of this?
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#30 Dec 30 2010 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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I completely agree, they have made this game casual friendly, in that you don't have to spend hours on end simply looking for party members. I'm generally able to find groups within minutes of logging on, and gain meaningful amounts of SP in a couple hours of playing, therefore the game is casual friendly.
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#31 Dec 30 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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I remember when SE assured it's players that Mythics would be "the casual player's relics."

Fact is, SE has no idea what casual means. They're working with their own definition of the term and it doesn't seem to mesh with the mass concept of the notion. Sure someone could log in and craft for about 15 minutes. But is the progress gained in those 15 minutes significant?

The idea behind the lateral leveling system was that a casual player could easily hit Rank 50. But when a casual 50 Gladiator and a dedicated 50 Gladiator stand next to each other the dedicated player will outshine the casual by having a wider selection of abilities from other classes. I think that's why this conversation still is popping up so much. SP comes in at the same rate no matter how you obtain it, making that climb to 50 daunting and unobtainable for the "casual" players who just want to experience a solid story like SE is famed for a few cool battles along the way.

The problem with the casual vs hardcore debate is that the potential for this game to be casual friendly is there, they just need to make a few more adjustments. As it stands, a casual player could do a DoL and DoH combination and likely feel they're doing something. However, until weapon decay and the road to 50 are adjusted, DoM and DoW aren't really going to be casual friendly about Rank 25+.

Either that or they need to publicly change their stance on who they want to attract to this game. That's why I'm looking forward to this statement we're supposed to see on the first from the new director. It would be nice to finally know what kind of game we're playing.
#32 Dec 30 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Default
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Casual, yes. Boring as sh$t also yes. There is not much to do right now, grind , craft, leves, behest and some quests about some people I dont care about every so often. The game is in limbo right now, the last 2 updates were basically from the old regime, the new team will take some time to implement their ideas. It is hard for me to log on lately, but complaining about it wont make programming go faster. So until a new update comes up Sims 3 is more exciting then FFXIV.
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#33 Dec 30 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
Sephrick wrote:
Fact is, SE has no idea what casual means. They're working with their own definition of the term and it doesn't seem to mesh with the mass concept of the notion. Sure someone could log in and craft for about 15 minutes. But is the progress gained in those 15 minutes significant?


Does casual have different meanings in the east compared to the west? If so it could explain alot. IMO XIV is alot more casual friendly. I put hardcore effort in XI and when I was forced to solo while forming or lfg it sucked bad once I ran out of quests. In XIV at least I'm making actual progress chipping away at various classes solo while hoping to run across a pick up pt or form a group from within the LS. I do miss quests though.
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#34 Dec 30 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
I remember when SE assured it's players that Mythics would be "the casual player's relics."

Fact is, SE has no idea what casual means. They're working with their own definition of the term and it doesn't seem to mesh with the mass concept of the notion. Sure someone could log in and craft for about 15 minutes. But is the progress gained in those 15 minutes significant?

The idea behind the lateral leveling system was that a casual player could easily hit Rank 50. But when a casual 50 Gladiator and a dedicated 50 Gladiator stand next to each other the dedicated player will outshine the casual by having a wider selection of abilities from other classes. I think that's why this conversation still is popping up so much. SP comes in at the same rate no matter how you obtain it, making that climb to 50 daunting and unobtainable for the "casual" players who just want to experience a solid story like SE is famed for a few cool battles along the way.

The problem with the casual vs hardcore debate is that the potential for this game to be casual friendly is there, they just need to make a few more adjustments. As it stands, a casual player could do a DoL and DoH combination and likely feel they're doing something. However, until weapon decay and the road to 50 are adjusted, DoM and DoW aren't really going to be casual friendly about Rank 25+.

Either that or they need to publicly change their stance on who they want to attract to this game. That's why I'm looking forward to this statement we're supposed to see on the first from the new director. It would be nice to finally know what kind of game we're playing.


The OP point that casual means that you can do something contructive/enjoyable in 15 or 30 minutes alone, it has nothing to do with how hard and dificult it is to achive rank 50....

In my opinion this is clearly the point made by the OP, people still have different views on what they consider casual, clearlly your view of casual differs from the OP (and my own).
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#35 Dec 30 2010 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
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But you can make meaningfull progress in a little time, it just depends on how you spend that time. Of course it should take longer at the higher ranks. I wouldn't play this game if someone could log in for 15 or 30 minutes a day and reach r50 in two weeks. That's just lame, it has nothing to do with being casual friendly.
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#36 Dec 30 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Hugus wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
I remember when SE assured it's players that Mythics would be "the casual player's relics."

Fact is, SE has no idea what casual means. They're working with their own definition of the term and it doesn't seem to mesh with the mass concept of the notion. Sure someone could log in and craft for about 15 minutes. But is the progress gained in those 15 minutes significant?

The idea behind the lateral leveling system was that a casual player could easily hit Rank 50. But when a casual 50 Gladiator and a dedicated 50 Gladiator stand next to each other the dedicated player will outshine the casual by having a wider selection of abilities from other classes. I think that's why this conversation still is popping up so much. SP comes in at the same rate no matter how you obtain it, making that climb to 50 daunting and unobtainable for the "casual" players who just want to experience a solid story like SE is famed for a few cool battles along the way.

The problem with the casual vs hardcore debate is that the potential for this game to be casual friendly is there, they just need to make a few more adjustments. As it stands, a casual player could do a DoL and DoH combination and likely feel they're doing something. However, until weapon decay and the road to 50 are adjusted, DoM and DoW aren't really going to be casual friendly about Rank 25+.

Either that or they need to publicly change their stance on who they want to attract to this game. That's why I'm looking forward to this statement we're supposed to see on the first from the new director. It would be nice to finally know what kind of game we're playing.


The OP point that casual means that you can do something contructive/enjoyable in 15 or 30 minutes alone, it has nothing to do with how hard and dificult it is to achive rank 50....

In my opinion this is clearly the point made by the OP, people still have different views on what they consider casual, clearlly your view of casual differs from the OP (and my own).


You're absolutely right. Personal perspective is a huge part of it. I guess I'm just taking the game for what it is. All there is to do is level right now. If, say, they put in something fun and engaging that can be enjoyed at rank 20 essentially the same as at rank 50 then I'd say the only mechanic needing to be changed is weapon decay.

Give us a casino and chocobo breeding/races and things of that nature then SE can leave rank 50 for those who want an HNM scene. It all comes down to the fact that SE promised a casual-friendly experience but left casuals and hard ores to uncomfortably walk the same path.

You and the OP are right in that a player *can* log in and craft for 15 minutes. I'm just looking at it from the angle that when all the game has is the road to 50, it sort of devaluates that player's time.
#37 Dec 30 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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OP, yes its casual in that you can log in and do "something" in FFXIV in about a half an hour period of time. Its not casual in that many of them are simply going to give up come the 30s and 40s, when they realize playing that fashion will take them weeks to get a level.


I can see people argue that there are casual aspects of this game, some good ideas in there. However, its still the least casual MMO I've seen introduced to the market since vanguard.
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#38 Dec 30 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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who's to say the content coming in the first couple of patches in 2011 won't be for r20s?
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#39 Dec 30 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well I have played a ton of MMOS, and the grind or "TNL" is pretty insane in XIV.

This what hurts the casual player. You can focus on one job for your time on and maybe be at 1/2 - 2/3s of a hardcore (time-wise) player.

If you get caught up in the self-repair, making tools, gathering, and blending a few DoM / DoW classes together (which this game is MADE to do) then you will be 15-20% of the rank of a hard-core player.

I play 5 hours after work some day ... have pulled 12 hour weekend days, so I'm not exactly casual .... but still employed :P

In order to not be ridiculously low ranked as a DoM, I have all but given up every other job... I had to really. Granted you can buy tools and most gear now, but early on you had to be self-sufficient .... so another load of time wasted for me. Can't afford to waste time and still get anywhere in a job.

The fatigue and "bonus" system is crap anyways, hasn't limited any hardcore player from maxing 2-3 jobs, but I hit yellow when I really try and solo grind some decent xp ... which hurts my gains. We don't have the massive grinding parties from pre-patch.

People have made a ton of comparisons in this thread, and many counter-points are very true. You can't compare this to WoW, you need to compare it to vanilla WoW and how ridiculously clunky it was within the first year of launch.

This is true for all games, and yes there is the ability in FF XVI to log in for 30 minutes and do something constructive. Point of the thread indeed, so if that is SE's thought on casual, then they succeeded ... but it will take a year to r50 ONE job as a casual .. if not longer ... which very well may lose them subscriptions.
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#40 Dec 30 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh my . . . .. . .

Interesting thread that's for sure.

I do agree with the OP's perspective about what he thinks SE's vision for casuals was.

I do strongly believe that casual friendly to SE means the game is accessible to non hardcore players.
I do not see the casual vision particularly pertaining towards reaching end game rank or level in a quick fashion.
I am in agreement with the thought of the current in game content being casual accessible. Log in grab leve's port craft those leve's port to crystal hand in leve's, run quest leve for SP/EXP/gil/items/faction points. Or one could log in for a bit kill some mobs and make a few k sp, some shards/crystals/loot/gil. This aspect of the game is 100% casual friendly.

Sp for party play I believe is in need of tweaking and is not casual friendly, absolutely not. Sp for solo that's debatable everyone has their opinion and I have not formed mine as of yet. I am enjoying spamming behest and lending a helping hand to anyone doing a leve.

Looking at the SP spread post rank 20, and the sp system I am going with community yes it is to steep post rank 20. Seriously who will play 2-3 years a game 1-2 hours a day and have almost zero chance of at least hitting level cap. The current state for sp gain I am with most of the community does need looking at just to make it more enjoyable to the player.

Great thread :) was a fun read even though some of the emotion flying around here is holy crap nuts :P

#41 Dec 30 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I know it's lodged deep within a silly argument with Aurelius but I also agreed:

Even though I think SE means "log on and do something meaningful in short bursts" they also created a game with so many meaningless time sinks and a ridiculous XP curve after Rank 30 that it's also a HUGE deterrent to the "casual gamer."

I think XIV is extremely casual friendly based on 1 perspective and also extremely casual unfriendly based on how people (maybe just Westerners?) feel when they realize 2 hours a day of grinding is going to take them 3 years to hit Rank 50.

That's very discouraging. I never meant to imply it wasn't. Just that SE's view of "casual" means you can get it done only investing moderate amounts of time per week.

-----

I got some errands to do but I kinda want to reply to some things more specifically.

Mythic is a good example of the Square Enix (or perhaps "Tanaka" personally) idea of "casual" content. I'll talk about that later. ^_^

Glad this thread steered back into a direction I intended.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#42 Dec 30 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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The main problem is everyone has a completely different definition of casual. Its such a really vague term that one game can never be casual for everyone. Yes its casual for people who just play for half a hour. But not for people who "casually play for 4+ hours a day"
#43 Dec 30 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
who's to say the content coming in the first couple of patches in 2011 won't be for r20s?


One would think so...how else are they going to lure people back? I don't think more high level super buffalo's will do it.

The game is casual friendly with a limited amount of things to do. When I think of FFXI...I think of running. Always running...lock-on...run. Run some more. Planning the next days activities around how long it will take to get from point A to point b. FFXIV...we don't have that. And just wait until we have horsebirds and ***************...we will be everywhere. And compared to WOW...I never worried about time in that game either. Very easy to jump on, do a quick daily, jump out. jump in, fly somewhere, do some farming, log out.

14 is headed in the right direction...WE JUST NEED MORE STUFF TO DO. And fix the other stuff along the way...
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#44 Dec 30 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just got back from my lunch break.

AFTER walking home I did a cooking leve, a carpentry leve, an easy R20 leve as THM (for gil) and a really tough R20 dodo leve as a R13/14 PUG (I ranked up) for marks.

Granted, I did bike back to work a tiny bit late... but the fact I can make 30K+, get a bunch of shards, get a rank, and get some marks on a lunch break... is pretty frigging casual.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#45 Dec 30 2010 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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I think a lot of you guys are really getting the picture I'm painting.

It's nice that when you have 10 minutes you can get quite a bit accomplished.

-----

I know I promised to get into my opinions on Mythic, but while I was out I thought about this from an "Asian" perspective. I am familiar with Japanese, but I worked for 6 years as a translator of Mandarin (Chinese) to English. The Chinese word for "casual" is suibian (随便) and when I run that Chinese word through a Japanese dictionary "casual" (カジュアル) is what comes out.

Here's the thing, though. Suibian has multifaceted use. It is in and of itself a very casual word. I could use it as an adjective to mean something is "laid back" or "easy going" (as in the grind to R50 is not very casual).

It could also mean "whatever you want." Which Aurelius threw in my face earlier. Developers said the game would be "whatever you (the player) want" but this is actually (in Chinese, anyway) the same as saying "casual."

For example, You could ask "What should I wear to the dinner?"
and I could say "Casual (suibian)." You'd know in English & Chinese I mean something comfortable.

You could also ask "What time should I show up?"
and I could also say "Casual (suibian)." In English "Casual" doesn't seem like the answer to the question, so I'd typically translate it as "whenever you feel like it is fine." The word is the same in Chinese, though.

FFXIV is DEFINITELY a "whenever you feel like it" game. As far as character development and armor wearing - it's also a very "whatever you want to do" kind of game.

So in conclusion I now understand why I believe SE meant this type of meaning when they said casual friendly and why Westerners (in general) cry up and down that it's not casual friendly at all (in the way we typically mean - easy going, laid back, non-intensive).

I hope this brings people closer to understanding the meaning of the word "casual" in this context and coming from an Asian market. I would say XIV is the most "casual" MMO to come out of the Asian market quite possibly ever.

I wonder if Asians have the same arguments as us or if they knew initially (as I seemed to) that when they said casual they meant easy to access and not "easy to keep up with Hardcores in leveling and content competition." (That latter thought is absurd to me. I don't see how any MMO could function that way.)
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Battle Mage Kiru
#46 Dec 30 2010 at 7:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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A subtle irony around here (and a reason I think I'm on crazy pills sometimes) is the same people are crying they want the game to be more structured are also crying that the game isn't casual friendly.

They're just using the wrong definition or a Western interpretation.

XI was very rigid. Parties simply did not work unless you had a typical set up. That will never happen in XIV. Any job can be attuned to fill any role. People cry for some definition to classes, but to do so would take away from a very casual approach to building a unique character.

XI was very rigid on gear. There was definitive gear that was best (and varying situations had varying gear) but I think most people felt (especially in end-game) everyone eventually looked exactly the same. That will also (hopefully) never happen in XIV. I don't think there will ever be "definitive" Gladiator gear or "definitive" Conjurer gear. Conjurer fills the role of BLM (nuker) and WHM (healer) so even in practical application there should be a near 50/50 split on why people picked Conjurer and then their stats (and following suit their gear) will be adjusted to cater their play-style. Then on top of that there are a wide variety (and widening all the time) color variations to gear. I hope they expand on this system in the future, too, so if you want to switch from Red Conjurer to Blue, you can just have a set re-dyed rather than buy/sell entire sets. Maybe wishful thinking, but nevertheless gear/character builds is also very casual.

I -ONLY- compare it to XI because I believe (and I could be wrong) that when SE said they set out to make a game that was casual friendly and you could do whatever you want (with your character) this is exactly what they meant.

Now people are crying it's not casual or whatever they want, but they also don't like lack of class definition and how partying isn't as tactical or demanding as XI.

I'm taking crazy pills. I simply (and frequently) have no idea what the player base (on average) truly wants. I feel like it's completely conflicting all the time, not even person to person but the same person saying they want two separate things that aren't exactly exclusive.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#47 Dec 30 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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TempLoop wrote:
this game is entirely WAY more casual than any other mmo i've ever seen. they give you crafting leves that GIVE you mats for FREE. gathering spots are not COMPETED over. you can change jobs ANYWHERE. tons of inventory space. you can teleport anywhere anytime. leves are gathered at one location, not all over town from a hundred different npcs. etc etc.

the fact that people that play more pass you in level should not be a concern to others. you are both given the same opportunity.

if they wanted to make more casual leveling, they'd do what Aion did and I believe wow... been years since i played... by giving you a buff when you log in based on how much time you were logged out that allows you to gain an extra percentage more xp or in this case sp.


Every point agreed upon. If I wanted to level cap every job within three months of release I wouldn't be enoying the game either since I would have to wait 2 years before the next expansion/level-cap raise. Although there are no chocobos/airships YET, this game is VERY easy to play withstanding certain party features.
#48 Dec 30 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I find ff14 close to the sims actually, a real sandbox and casual in that sense to me. (Weird I know) Some people like an unknown world/reality to interact and explore, some like to excel given a definitive winning condition and/or structure. I don't think the latter is being addressed atm.

I did the calculations and you do need too long to hit level cap but I asked myself, why do I need to? I've played many games where 'life never starts till level cap'... its something I am not comfortable with. I would rather the game allow players of all levels be able to contribute a required service in the game. (E.g. A lvl 60 boss mob requires pop drops from a lvl30 lvlcap mini-boss, crafting leve drop, etc.)

Sorry to digress. I do agree it is casual atm, and I am waiting for the direction for ff14. All that casual progress should still go somewhere.

#49 Dec 30 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The main problem is everyone has a completely different definition of casual. Its such a really vague term that one game can never be casual for everyone. Yes its casual for people who just play for half a hour. But not for people who "casually play for 4+ hours a day"


I know you're just using one example, but I'll explain my routine.

I play (average) 5 hours a day but here's what I can accomplish in 4 hours.

Every other day I get together with 3 friends and do approximately 7 leves. It takes 3 hours and I get 65,000 skill points. I level twice a week on my main job (Conjurer).

The off days (waiting for leves to reset) I typically work on crafts or if I simply don't feel like crafting, I work on low-level jobs to farm traits & abilities. Anyway, I should still have 8 craft leves (and 1-2 battle leves) to work on crafts (casually) or my gathering job (casually). Since 9-10 leves don't take me 3-5 hours solo I then go ahead and grind out levels on Craft/Gather or Lowbie classes.

It's still (to me) a very casual experience in this regard. I get 2 Ranks per week on my R38 job (may slow down to 1 Rank per week as I approach R45, but I'm ok with that - with only 5 ranks left should not take more than a month). Plus countless ranks on lower jobs and free materials to rank up my crafting jobs.

I can run my entire schedule in XIV just doing leves! but that's just me. I know some people don't like leves or aren't happy doing them ad nauseam (as mentioned earlier) but that isn't really my problem. I agree 100% that the content provided in this game isn't fun for everyone and there should be more fun content added (soon) - but it doesn't mean there isn't content (to pick on another irritating argument) or that it isn't very casual.

Even if I wanted to grind Coblyns (rather than Leves) I could probably get 1 Rank every 2 days (10 hours) just grinding solo by myself - if that was what I enjoyed doing.

Anyway... It's still pretty casual no matter what you want to do and when you want to do it. Just don't expect to have multiple Rank 50s as fast as people who grind 20 hours a day. It's not reasonable.
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Battle Mage Kiru
#50 Dec 30 2010 at 7:57 PM Rating: Default
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I boggles my mind, but can anybody tell me how is this game the most casual friendly MMO ?

Seriously ... lol
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MUTED
#51 Dec 30 2010 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Talking about leves, I think they do need to add more content beyond leves atm.

8 combat, 8 craft leves every 36hrs is quite alot. They help casuals but I think it misleads other players into thinking its 'the way' because the rewards are so good.
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