Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6
This Forum is Read Only

MMO Mentality. Follow

#1 Jan 03 2011 at 12:32 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
523 posts
A few thoughts I had as I browsed the web earlier: (There is a TLDR at the end)

I think that because I come from a time when all we had was Atari and Nintendo to pass the hours, I am a bit more, how do I say, tolerant of games flaws and content. I can remember a time when every time I turned on my console, I started the game from the beginning of the game, never to see the end of a game because I was too young to be "good enough" to get to the end. Even when my friend came over, we usually ended our gaming session in a wrestling session because even when we worked together, we usually just made it more difficult.

As games progressed, each system had its "good games" and "bad games" easily separated in the bin at the store. The games with the most dust on them in the case were the ones you knew not to buy.

Somewhere however I started picking up these games for each console. I played through them as best I could, trying to get to the end of each one. I tried to figure out why they were bad, it helped me pass the time, asking myself "WHY is this game bad" and usually answering myself "poor controls, sloppy mechanics, or lazy programming." Never the less, I played these games for what they were worth, and enjoyed doing it. I found a lot of good behind all the bad. And even sometimes was surprised because a game was given a bad review, but was very enjoyable to me.

But, it seems that these days the tolerance level for a game that isn't A+ quality new is very low. There is just SO much content in the world these days, SO many manufactures and companies that give options to things. Gone is the day of just a few options, and if you made the wrong choice, you were stuck with it. Instead of playing the game for what its worth, many players these days simply drop it, or never buy it in the first place. No longer is the day when you played a game because your mother bought it for you and it was the only new game you were getting for a month.

It surprises me now that the children of this generation have so much wonderful technology and games at their fingertips in Cell phones and devices that I would have DIED for 15 years ago. They simply just don't know how to appreciate it. Its normal for them, and I don't blame them. But because they don't know any better, they expect things to be of a certain "quality" otherwise they just turn a cold shoulder. Minor flaws, even as silly as color or shape will lose their interest and they would rather take whats "cool" I only wish they had seen and used an Atari or a Nintendo back in the day... lol

TLDR:

I was browsing Youtube and came across this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfxPZZ6fmNE&feature=popt14us09

It made me think of FFXIV, and that in turn lead to "Why?" "Why is the mentality of MMo's this way?"

(It also made me feel good that WoW was having the same issue with its playerbase, not just FFXIV)

My answer comes in 2 parts:

#1, The age we live in is a very ADD age. If a product doesn't perform A+ from day 1, it might as well be a failure. There is no more "take it for what it is worth" or "look at the good in things" The mentality of the world is now "what can you do for me NOW?" And I am somewhat ashamed of where we have gone. I want my children someday to enjoy the classics for what they are worth, and to see the good in them, not just the bad. To pick something up and enjoy it, even if it isn't the greatest, and understand why it was good.

#2, It is very difficult to manufacture for such a broad audience. Casuals, Hardcore players, adults, children, boys, girls... The list is huge. I can sympathize with companies that take on such a feat, it is very hard to do. Game companies included. In order to make money in this economy, products need to be generalized, and doing so usually diminishes quality. The same can be said for MMO's.

Well, anyway, thanks for listening, and I hope sometime while playing FFXIV, you take a step back and look at what you do enjoy, instead of what you don't. I don't expect anyone to change their opinions, but I would like everyone to try and enjoy things while the new Devs are working on making things better ^.^

~Mog

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:47am by DoctorMog
#2 Jan 03 2011 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Honestly, i don't see why it's a problem. If something isn't good, why waste money/time on it?

Admittedly, many people won't even give things a chance based on trivial things, but still. Most of us don't have the money and/or time to try every game/whatever else that even might be fun.

If something isn't enjoyable right away, why would you continue investing more time into it? 9 times out of 10, if you don't like something at all right away, that's not going to change. Sure, you might miss out on some things because of a bad start, that you otherwise would have enjoyed, but is that really the end of the world?

Standards have gone up. When the Atari first came out, sure it was absolutely impressive. But that no longer is the case. As technology improves, we expect more from it. There is nothing impressive about an atari in 2011.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:53am by ThePsychoticOne
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#3 Jan 03 2011 at 12:55 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
523 posts
I am so scared to have the mentality that you state because I really can't imagine all the things I would have missed in my life if I had never given them a shot, even if they weren't the best choice.

I have learned just as much in my life from the things I didn't like as the things I do enjoy.

I only wonder where "standards" are going to end? At the current rate of minimum standards to even try a game, we are in for some serious problems in the future if they continue to rise at the rate they have in the last 10 years.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:11am by DoctorMog
#4 Jan 03 2011 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
The problem is that unless you have an unlimited amount of time, which you don't, every minute you spend doing something you don't enjoy is a minute you're not spending doing something you do enjoy. It's not a choice of x, which is slightly entertaining, vs sitting around doing nothing. It's x vs y, when y > x.

edit: you edit your posts a lot. They're not going to, until things stop improving. As long as the ceiling keeps being raised, everything else is going to need to keep up, or it'll fall behind. I don't think ignoring the obsolete is a problem.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:04am by ThePsychoticOne
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#5 Jan 03 2011 at 1:08 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
523 posts
Imagine a child that only was ever given things they enjoy.

What do you imagine is the outcome?

I don't know that I would even know what I enjoy if I hadn't tried things I don't like.

Its all about experience. Seems people are far less willing to even see where things go. Its not exactly what I want? ***** it.

In there somewhere might have been something you didn't know you enjoyed, but now you won't ever see it. You are too blinded by your "everything or nothing" mentality to enjoy "part" of something.

Edit: Not YOU specifically XD

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:09am by DoctorMog
#6Ostia, Posted: Jan 03 2011 at 1:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So you wanna go back to the time's where it was either Grind and have no life to be able to compete in a MMO or dont play instead ?
#7 Jan 03 2011 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
523 posts
Not at all,

My hope is that people can find something they like, and expand on it.

Lately I have seen many more constructive posts about FFXIV with great ideas on where SE could take the game.

A welcome relief to the complaining with no suggestions to improve.

I don't expect everyone to like the game, but I would like to see them offer constructive feedback with a good tone rather than the opposite (which has seemed to be the trend for some time now)

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:14am by DoctorMog
#8 Jan 03 2011 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Choice is a *****. Every time a developer comes along and raises the bar, that bar becomes the new standard. They demonstrate what is possible and anything less than what is possible is unacceptable. Progress is driven by a refusal to accept mediocrity. Progress is driven by the acumen to distinguish between those things that are at the core of what you are attempting to do and therefore are non-negotiable and those things that are on the periphery of that core and are therefore subject to innovation.

If you're an engineer tasked with designing a new passenger vehicle, you can do a great many things from an innovative and creative standpoint but they're all rather pointless if your design doesn't feature room for passengers.

If you're an MMO development studio and you're tasked with building on one of the most successful franchises in the history of RPG video games, it might become easy to be overwhelmed and forget that the core...the non-negotiable fundamental component...is that you are being tasked to create something of entertainment value within the auspices of a particular genre and if/when that product fails to entertain, regardless of what innovations you brought to the table, you have failed.

The term 'ADD' gets tossed around altogether too frequently. In the context of FFXIV it's not a matter of being unable to focus your attention on the good things. It's about the difficulty in finding the good things to focus your attention on. It's about the tragic set of circumstances that comes around when the novelty wears off and you suddenly realize that what was once new and shiny is now simply dull and repetitious. Maybe the proper balance between fun mechanics, diversity, challenge, and reward is off. And if we look at FFXIV, for all but the most casual non-gamers, there's very little to be found by way of diversity or challenge to the point where the challenge becomes that of slogging through something that is, at best, marginally entertaining and your reward for doing so is inconsistent (see also: random).

The heart of every RPG is the sense of being a participant in a vast, living fantasy world. The FFXIV world is neither particularly vast nor is there anything about it that speaks to a deep, living world. It's a big empty sandbox, and I think most people were hoping that SE would at least fill it with sand before they made it available to us to play in.
#9 Jan 03 2011 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
Imagine a child that only was ever given things they enjoy.

What do you imagine is the outcome?

I don't know that I would even know what I enjoy if I hadn't tried things I don't like.

Its all about experience. Seems people are far less willing to even see where things go. Its not exactly what I want? ***** it.

In there somewhere might have been something you didn't know you enjoyed, but now you won't ever see it. You are too blinded by your "everything or nothing" mentality to enjoy "part" of something.
Of course. No one is going to like everything they do. However once you do know what you don't like, it's best to avoid it. If you know you don't like 99.9%+ of country music, why would you ever turn the radio to a country music station? It just doesn't make sense, even if there are some country songs that you would like if you heard them.

We're talking about things that are meant to be enjoyed. Yes, there are other things you can get out of a video game/song/movie/books/etc, but at the end of the day, they're meant to be enjoyable. If you don't enjoy them, then you're missing the point of the entertainment industry.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:21am by ThePsychoticOne
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#10 Jan 03 2011 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
523 posts
You see, to me the sandbox is what is so wonderful.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:18am by DoctorMog
#11 Jan 03 2011 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,842 posts
Mog, times have changed and I hate to say but we are getting old. Remember when you were a kid and you heard old people complain about the latest generation.....sorry but it happened.

Some decision have to decide by the individual for better or worse. This too is part of life. Yes they might have enjoyed it in the end but they need to decide that. I think this is part of growing up. When a child is young a parent make choices for them but as they age parent pull back more and more preparing that child to be an adult and make smart decisions.

FFXIV was launched before it was ready, nobody can deny that. So the people that left did so with good reason, why play something you don't like when you have the choice to try something else. If something is good it does stand the test of time. Look at Star Wars or Super Mario Bros. **** FF has been going strong for over 20 years.
____________________________
FFXIV Dyvid (Awaiting 2.0)
FFXI Dyvid ~ Pandemonium (Retired)
SWTOR Dy'vid Legacy - Canderous Ordo
#12 Jan 03 2011 at 1:29 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
You see, to me the sandbox is what is so wonderful.


Yes, and I too recall the days of my childhood when an empty cardboard box and a little imagination could be one of the most entertaining things in the world. Of course, as my experiences evolved so too did my interests and my tastes in entertainment and while I could probably still find limited entertainment value in a large enough empty cardboard box, I certainly wouldn't pay someone a monthly fee for the privilege of access to it.
#13 Jan 03 2011 at 1:32 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Sure it's partly that standards have gone up. Indeed, you can see this trend across many subcultures. It's less to do with ADD and geometric tech growth, and more to do with the fetishistic way we humans cultivate our subcultures. There tends to be a laser beam focus on constant improvement and evolution, no matter the medium. And by no means is that a bad thing.

I remember when PC games were not user-friendly. Ultima did not have a quest log feature. Or markers on the map. (though it did have auto-sort *ahem*) The Might and Magic series used to have actual riddles in some of the quests. You can't solve the riddle, you can't finish the quest. ****, Wasteland had an autosave "feature" that violated one of the basic laws of game design, literally forcing the player to reroll her characters and start anew if she made an incautious move.(interesting aside, the Fallout series was essentially a Wasteland reboot)

I'm not saying that a game shouldn't aim to be as polished as possible, but i will say that a good game needs more than a bunch of user-friendly hand-holding features to make it fun. Those games I mentioned are some of my all time favorite distractions, and i was happy to take the good with the bad. What it comes down to is each of those games had "edge", if i may steal from William Gibson's vocabulary for a moment. The "it" that is so impossible to put into words, that grabs you no matter what sh*tty *** backwards broken mechanic is in your way. A lot of games these days have all the features you want, all the polish you could want, but they don't have edge.

FFXI had edge. So did WoW. And i really thought XIV would too. I think XIV was an attempt to strip the MMO genre down to its basics. And there's a certain quirky attractiveness to the core of the game. In many ways i enjoy it in that respect, but mostly i don't.

I suppose what i'm getting at here is something that is much bigger than MMOs, which is just that in our quest for perfection, we stop appreciating imperfection and all the freshness it can bring. Ugh, i think i just paraphrased Jeff Bridges' final soliloquy from Tron Legacy. Oh well. I could have done a lot worse.



Random thoughts that i wanted to get in to my post but am getting lazy and can't be bothered to work in:

Gamers don't always actually want what we think we want.

Maybe the failure of recent MMOs is less about the quality of the games, and more about the attitude of the players. Either way, the point is moot though, isn't it? The result is the same.

I really think game designers need to focus on making their own games again, instead of conducting surveys and listening to all our self righteous demands. I really do. Let the players find the games they like. If you build it they will come and all that. I suppose that sort of thing just isn't realistic anymore.
*edit* ohwait Minecraft says hi!

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:34am by Llester

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:35am by Llester

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:48am by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#14 Jan 03 2011 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
523 posts
I suppose I wish that the people that left had given it more of a chance. From the Dev feedback, they are trying extremely hard to win back some of the players that left, but because of the mentality I spoke of, I doubt they will even give a glance back to the game. (some might)

You see, I think they would enjoy things once SE makes some changes, but they won't ever give it a chance =/
#15 Jan 03 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
523 posts
Aurelius wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
You see, to me the sandbox is what is so wonderful.


Yes, and I too recall the days of my childhood when an empty cardboard box and a little imagination could be one of the most entertaining things in the world. Of course, as my experiences evolved so too did my interests and my tastes in entertainment and while I could probably still find limited entertainment value in a large enough empty cardboard box, I certainly wouldn't pay someone a monthly fee for the privilege of access to it.



You make a compelling argument, thats for sure.

I think more specifically I meant that I could make my character how I really want in this sandbox. I understand that a cardboard box alone is not enough for people to enjoy. This is something I can not do in other MMO's. I always feel trapped in my character, like I want to branch out and play something else, but I always hate that I have to make a new character to do so.

So I think I should have expanded on my statement, but playing a character how I want, with whatever skills I want, seems so refreshing to me. FFXI had this, but FFXIV is so much easier to accomplish this in.
#16 Jan 03 2011 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
I suppose I wish that the people that left had given it more of a chance. From the Dev feedback, they are trying extremely hard to win back some of the players that left, but because of the mentality I spoke of, I doubt they will even give a glance back to the game. (some might)

You see, I think they would enjoy things once SE makes some changes, but they won't ever give it a chance =/



I somewhat ashamedly agree with you. I think players were too quick to hit the panic button (or maybe SE was too quick to panic in response to that button-press. imagine SE being TOO eager to please us?) about certain problems with this game. There's a part of me that wishes i could slip into an alternate timeline and see What Would Have Happened if the original team stayed on, and plodded away with their original vision. I feel like eventually a good game would have to come out of that scenario. But the players can't wait for that (nor should they i suppose). And the shareholders sure as **** can't wait for that. Hello big business model. I trust you will do your best to make sure the future of gaming blows.

also, this:
Quote:
Yes, and I too recall the days of my childhood when an empty cardboard box and a little imagination could be one of the most entertaining things in the world. Of course, as my experiences evolved so too did my interests and my tastes in entertainment and while I could probably still find limited entertainment value in a large enough empty cardboard box, I certainly wouldn't pay someone a monthly fee for the privilege of access to it.


is (probably intentionally) missing the point. I'm not sure players really know what they want anymore. There's something that was in that cardboard box that we're not finding in most of our shinies.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:44am by Llester

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:46am by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#17 Jan 03 2011 at 1:42 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
People tend to forget that in the early day's of MMO's there where no option's or diversity, it was either sink or swim, and that was it, there was not other alternative, if you wanted to play a MMO you better enjoy grinding, you better enjoy camping named mobs for a chance at rare loot, and you better have lots of free time, if you dint have any of those, you would never be on par with people that did period.

why would any company in 2010-2011 go back to that horrible game design ?
____________________________
MUTED
#18 Jan 03 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
523 posts
It might have been horrible for you, but millions of people did it. I can't say looking back that it wasn't an enjoyable experience. Sure, it was a lot of time I wasted, but it was fun overall and I don't for a minute regret playing those games.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:47am by DoctorMog
#19 Jan 03 2011 at 1:49 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
I suppose I wish that the people that left had given it more of a chance. From the Dev feedback, they are trying extremely hard to win back some of the players that left, but because of the mentality I spoke of, I doubt they will even give a glance back to the game. (some might)

You see, I think they would enjoy things once SE makes some changes, but they won't ever give it a chance =/


They already gave it a chance. How many chances do you think SE should get? 2? 3? 6? 20? They launched a game that they were apologizing for within a matter of weeks and made all sorts of promises to fix, but the fixes they were promising only addressed the most glaring issues related to the game and as time wore on and the novelty faded people started to find more and more about the game that was nothing short of disappointing.

It's supposed to be a source of entertainment and if it doesn't entertain (or worse yet, irritates) then there's no reason to continue doing it. From my point of view, the fact that I paid for a retail box at all was an act of giving SE a second chance after FFXI. They had five years to prove to me that they were ready to step into the 21st century of MMO designed and they failed. That's all there is to it.

And just between you and me, you know what I was wanting to see SE demonstrate based on how I spent most of my time? That they saw the crafting system for the RNG-dominated abortion that it turned out to be and had plans to review it in detail and tweak or overhaul to produce a system that wasn't so goddam irritating. And the best we got was the promise of adjustments to this and that. Oh, and more stealth nerfs. So as you can see, SE hasn't promised to address my most substantial concerns at all, and I have no reason to believe at this point that they're going to do anything with the combat system that would entice me to focus on that for any length of time, either. They've brought about a certain amount of hope, yes. And they may well turn it around. But hope isn't entertaining. I'm not dying of some strange disease and looking to SE as the only ones who can come up with a cure. I'm just looking for an MMO that entertains me so that I can indulge my hobby and the first studio that can provide me with that is going to be the one that gets my monthly sub. That's all there is to it.
#20 Jan 03 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
Only EQ had a million Subs at one point, every other MMO with that same design dint even came close, and do have in mind that back then, that was the design, every single MMO was the same, you grind from lvl 1-Max no exceptions, only EQ broke away from this with thousands of quest, and large content at all levels, but it was still a grind sanbox MMO, FFXI never even reached a million subs and i'll admit that it was an extremely better game than EQ could ever hope to be <.<

i'm not trying to bash you or anything, what i'm saying is, games that follow that old design dont do good in today's market, and with good reasons
____________________________
MUTED
#21 Jan 03 2011 at 1:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Quote:
I'm not dying of some strange disease and looking to SE as the only ones who can come up with a cure. I'm just looking for an MMO that entertains me so that I can indulge my hobby and the first studio that can provide me with that is going to be the one that gets my monthly sub. That's all there is to it.



agreed. Sadly, XIV just isn't going to be that MMO for a long time. Which sucks because i really love playing with a controller, and most MMOs just don't support that. Yes, i know how trivial it sounds, but for me it's a Big Deal. Keyboard and mouse makes me feel sooooooo disconnected. Luckily (and here's where i contradict my earlier condemnation of big business) the rising popularity and clout of the console gamer should make most future MMOs controller friendly.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#22 Jan 03 2011 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Ostia wrote:


i'm not trying to bash you or anything, what i'm saying is, games that follow that old design dont do good in today's market, and with good reasons



for whatever the reason, you're absolutely correct, and this is a pretty big issue in the MMO world now. The old MMO paradigm just doesn't work anymore. The first company that can successfully implement a new MMO model will win. Hint: it's probably not gonna be SE.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#23 Jan 03 2011 at 1:57 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Looking back on my gaming history, I agree with the idea that it seems like we used to be a lot more forgiving of games.

I also think Roj hit the nail on the head though with his comment that every minute spent doing something you don't enjoy is a minute you could have spent doing something you do enjoy.

Consider that those of us who were children of the 80s like myself are 20-30 years older. As a 26 year old with a fiancee, a mortgage, a job... I find myself quickly ending up with a bit of that ADD. It's not that I quickly get bored of things, so much that if I'm playing a game and it isn't impressing me, I'd rather play something else.

There was an interesting article, I tried to find it but couldn't, where the author states and then explains that any given MMORPG has one hour to convince him to play it (and that in reality, it's actually much less; the one hour is a conservative overestimate).

I think that's a true statement for many people. After I quit FFXI and WoW earlier this year, I went in search of a new game to play to bide my time until XIV came out. I found that I quickly dismissed a lot of games without even giving them a try for small reasons. If I saw that the game had a lot of PvP content, I didn't even try it. If the UI looked too much like WoW's UI, I didn't even try it. I tried EVE and had made up my mind that I wasn't interested in under an hour. I know I'm not the only gamer that does this.

That's the problem; if a game doesn't put its absolute best foot forward, many gamers will move on. No matter what the game has to offer, most gamers are simply unwilling to forge past a weak opening in the hopes that it gets better. If you haven't gotten someone interested in the first 10 minutes, it is going to be exponentially harder to get them interested after that.

Perhaps it is the result of all the time we -have- spent gaming that we simply know that there's usually something better out there, which makes us unwilling to tolerate anything less.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#24 Jan 03 2011 at 2:00 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
Llester wrote:
is (probably intentionally) missing the point. I'm not sure players really know what they want anymore. There's something that was in that cardboard box that we're not finding in most of our shinies.


It's not necessary for someone to know what they want going into a new MMO. For all the talk around here prior to launch I can tell you that most people had no idea what they wanted. I went into FFXIV with an open mind and I found some things that I liked, I also found a great many things that I didn't like. And now I'm at a point where my involvement with the game is winding down and my focus is really on making sure that I'm not condemning the people who are still playing it for finding enjoyment in it for reasons of their own while I wait for something else to come along.
#25 Jan 03 2011 at 2:03 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
every minute spent doing something you don't enjoy is a minute you could have spent doing something you do enjoy.


well, yeah, sure. I don't think anyone here is saying, play X game even though you don't enjoy it. I'm saying that there is no perfect holy grail miracle elixir game out there. So find one you like and put up with its faults. Wait am i waxing philosophical on game culture or giving relationship advice?

Quote:

That's the problem; if a game doesn't put its absolute best foot forward, many gamers will move on. No matter what the game has to offer, most gamers are simply unwilling to forge past a weak opening in the hopes that it gets better. If you haven't gotten someone interested in the first 10 minutes, it is going to be exponentially harder to get them interested after that.




I think its less about putting a best foot forward and more about not trying SO hard to appeal to every single market.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#26 Jan 03 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Llester wrote:
is (probably intentionally) missing the point. I'm not sure players really know what they want anymore. There's something that was in that cardboard box that we're not finding in most of our shinies.


It's not necessary for someone to know what they want going into a new MMO. For all the talk around here prior to launch I can tell you that most people had no idea what they wanted. I went into FFXIV with an open mind and I found some things that I liked, I also found a great many things that I didn't like. And now I'm at a point where my involvement with the game is winding down and my focus is really on making sure that I'm not condemning the people who are still playing it for finding enjoyment in it for reasons of their own while I wait for something else to come along.


totally agree. I'm the first to admit that i don't know what i want from an MMO aside from fun, distraction and just a tiny little uncynical sense of wonder. Sadly, i think we've all leveled up past the "wonder" zone. The more i think about this discussion the more i think that until the MMO model does some serious evolution, we're going to see a lot of disappointed gamers and failed titles.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#27 Jan 03 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Llester wrote:
well, yeah, sure. I don't think anyone here is saying, play X game even though you don't enjoy it. I'm saying that there is no perfect holy grail miracle elixir game out there. So find one you like and put up with its faults. Wait am i waxing philosophical on game culture or giving relationship advice?
Of course, every game has its faults that you'll need to put up with. However if you don't enjoy it, it's silly to keep playing it. A couple of minor problems won't stop someone from enjoying a game, even if they do get annoying.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#28 Jan 03 2011 at 2:08 AM Rating: Good
35 posts
To answer the OP,

Back then, what you got was what you got, for better or for worse. The Internet changed things on the developers' side as much as it did for consumers, hence the rise of the "ship it now, patch it later" mentality of almost all modern companies. All that matters is the upcoming quarter's bottom line and the stock price, because that's what's going to determine the stock price, and therefore the bonus pay and stock option value of the suits in charge.

Game development has gotten so complex and expensive, given the power of current, widely available hardware, that one or two guys in a garage just can't compete anymore, unless they have an absolutely genius and revolutionary new (and simple to implement) gaming idea. The big stuff now requires the investment of millions of corporate dollars to bring to market, and we are now therefore trapped to some degree inside their business cycle.
#29 Jan 03 2011 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
523 posts
I am a bit scared for the future of MMO's because if the standard isn't met (which takes thousands of man hours just to accomplish) the game will be an instant flop. There will be a minimum *cost* just to get the basics, and companies without the funds wont even attempt it.

The future of MMO's is going to be a struggle to compete with the monopoly that are only a handful of companies.

With no disrespect to the companies that did well in the MMO market, the mentality of everyone accepting nothing less than what is the new expectation, is going to ruin the economy of game creation for our future I think.

Nothing will meet the "standard" and thus be promptly dismissed.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:14am by DoctorMog
#30 Jan 03 2011 at 2:13 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Llester wrote:
well, yeah, sure. I don't think anyone here is saying, play X game even though you don't enjoy it. I'm saying that there is no perfect holy grail miracle elixir game out there. So find one you like and put up with its faults. Wait am i waxing philosophical on game culture or giving relationship advice?
Of course, every game has its faults that you'll need to put up with. However if you don't enjoy it, it's silly to keep playing it. A couple of minor problems won't stop someone from enjoying a game, even if they do get annoying.



certainly. and if UI lag was the only problem XIV had at launch i guess we wouldn't be having this discussion. as it is now, i enjoy playing XIV for short periods of time. Until i don't. Because there's a fundamental flaw in this product that all the lists of bugs and broken mechanics doesn't really capture for me. It's just kind of shallow, so it's fun for as long as it takes to scrape past the surface.

All i really know is, i wouldn't pay a monthly fee for this.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#31 Jan 03 2011 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
I am a bit scared for the future of MMO's because if the standard isn't met (which takes thousands of man hours just to accomplish) the game will be an instant flop. There will be a minimum *cost* just to get the basics, and companies without the funds wont even attempt it.

The future of MMO's is going to be a struggle to compete with the monopoly that are only a handful of companies.

With no disrespect to the companies that did well in the MMO market, the mentality of everyone accepting nothing less than what is the new expectation, is going to ruin the economy of game creation for our future I think.


yeah i think the golden age has passed. but look at minecraft. what an addictive weird awesomely fun little game that was made by one guy. and its awesome because there were no board meetings or shareholder concerns or player polls. No gigantic art teams to fuss over every last pixel. No mountains of people with their stupid brains to interfere with the vision.

i'm not saying minecraft is the new gaming paradigm or even that its that original (it's not), but it shows that one person can have a vision, and that people will respond to it without being polled first.



Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:20am by Llester
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#32 Jan 03 2011 at 2:36 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
I don't think ignoring the obsolete is a problem.


Such a thought assumes that anything old is without value -- that anything old should be quickly abandoned -- and is the exact problem the OP was lamenting.

For example, I quite liked Final Fantasy VI; today, its mechanics are considered obsolete, but I doubt that I'll ever find a game that quite measures up to it, no matter how "polished," "fun," or "graphically impressive" it may be when I start playing it. Revisiting that game years later, I was still greatly impressed by the story and all of its aspects; it is obsolete but good enough not to be ignored.

This is why there is value in Literature, in History, and in Art.

Wood engraving is obsolete but Rembrandt's works are great. Latin is a dead language but Mozart's Requiem is beautiful. The Romantic period has long-ended but Coleridge's poetry is moving.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#33 Jan 03 2011 at 2:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Looking back on my gaming history, I agree with the idea that it seems like we used to be a lot more forgiving of games.

I also think Roj hit the nail on the head though with his comment that every minute spent doing something you don't enjoy is a minute you could have spent doing something you do enjoy.

Consider that those of us who were children of the 80s like myself are 20-30 years older. As a 26 year old with a fiancee, a mortgage, a job... I find myself quickly ending up with a bit of that ADD. It's not that I quickly get bored of things, so much that if I'm playing a game and it isn't impressing me, I'd rather play something else.

There was an interesting article, I tried to find it but couldn't, where the author states and then explains that any given MMORPG has one hour to convince him to play it (and that in reality, it's actually much less; the one hour is a conservative overestimate).

I think that's a true statement for many people. After I quit FFXI and WoW earlier this year, I went in search of a new game to play to bide my time until XIV came out. I found that I quickly dismissed a lot of games without even giving them a try for small reasons. If I saw that the game had a lot of PvP content, I didn't even try it. If the UI looked too much like WoW's UI, I didn't even try it. I tried EVE and had made up my mind that I wasn't interested in under an hour. I know I'm not the only gamer that does this.

That's the problem; if a game doesn't put its absolute best foot forward, many gamers will move on. No matter what the game has to offer, most gamers are simply unwilling to forge past a weak opening in the hopes that it gets better. If you haven't gotten someone interested in the first 10 minutes, it is going to be exponentially harder to get them interested after that.

Perhaps it is the result of all the time we -have- spent gaming that we simply know that there's usually something better out there, which makes us unwilling to tolerate anything less.


I couldn't agree more.

But this isn't just relegated to MMOs, you can apply this to almost everything. Especially music.

I write (pop)music and if it doesn't grab someone's attention within the first 20 seconds then you're out of the game. You might get lucky if they listen to an entire song, you'll be very lucky if they like the song, then you'll be extremely lucky if they like the album. And you'll be over the moon if they become a fan.

That's the way its been for the past 80 years.

So, in the end I don't think perceptions of what's "good" are changing but rather, someone coming to terms with their own age and looking back not only fondly, but with a skewed sense of 'the good.'

As children we don't have sense of time, and value of anything. As adults we do.

I think I've purchased 4-6 games in the past 2 years. I've literally have weeded out most games. I've played the demos or just plain excluded them prior to playing them for whatever reason.

#34 Jan 03 2011 at 2:43 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
KaneKitty wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
I don't think ignoring the obsolete is a problem.
Such a thought assumes that anything old is without value
Your words, not mine. Age has nothing to do with art.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#35 Jan 03 2011 at 2:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
"This generation" is not the problem, nor is the industry. The only problem here is perfectly normal hedonic adaptation. It used to be that video games were new and rare things, and therefor automatically more entertaining and more interesting. Now they're not. Things that were once rare are now common. Rare things are more interesting.

So the problem is not anyone's mentality-- it's just the changing time. Live a deprived life and you'll be able to appreciate these things more easily. But where should you stop the deprivation? You could do without video games altogether.

I come from the same generation of gamer as you, so I gather, but couldn't disagree with you more. We enjoyed games more back then because they showed us things we'd never seen, then we look back on that through rose-colored glasses and try to make excuses for why what we see today just isn't appreciated as such a thing of beauty despite being objectively better in virtually every way. It's normal.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#36 Jan 03 2011 at 2:53 AM Rating: Good
*
72 posts
Hi all,

My reply to this post will try to be as understandable as possible because to me, it is very hard to grasp and convey. I hope I do not confuse nor agitate anyone here. If you can see something from my ramblings, please, help me put it in better light.

Doctor Mog kinda pulled something very close to my heart, because I too, was from a time when all I had were primitive games like load runner, archon and early ultima games to pass time. Perhaps this is why when I play modern games, my tolerance levels are higher because during those times, the games do not evolve themselves, you like it or you don't, the money is gone once you got it off the shelf. Modern gamers have such a huge selection out there, and perhaps, did not see the 'dark ages of gaming'.

Is it flawed to forgive the standards we have now because older gamers have seen the 'real bad'? I really don't know. To me, the more pertinent question is, do gamers really think it get can alot better 'effortlessly'?

In an interview, Tanaka mentioned that he never quite expected players to turn to self-sufficiency as opposed to forming relationships to get relevant skills for progression. Perhaps it is true that the social vehicle is not there to facilitate this, but then again, in the old days, players always found a way with the tools given, regardless of how bad they are. I think there is a generation gap to this, people now consult google (AH and guide sites) for all the information they want, service to consumer is so automated and impersonal these days. This is very different from my time where information and services need to go through a search process through your own social networks; we do it so often that it is no longer a 'hassle' to us, very much like washing dishes.

Yoshida mentions that players need to know the rules in order to enjoy the game, that statement to me; along with the current state of ff14 suggests that there are alot of players out there that prefer to excel at a game with specific constraints as rules that narrow the scope of the game rather than determine their own game given a sandbox, kinda like the sims vs. counterstrike.

I personally feel that MMOs have a dilemma, because I think some players see progression by the achievements in items &/ titles they get, some players by overcoming the difficulty of encounters, etc... and they all converge to 1 point, which to me is, "do I excel and/or enjoy this game?", and many players differ in opinion.

Why do I say excel and/or enjoy? I liken it to many sports fans out there that like for e.g. football but don't really necessarily excel at it. When you put the two together in a social context like MMOs, suddenly, players start to get self-conscious and ego comes into the picture.

The SE developers mention that think MMOs are a huge theme park with many different games, but will the player base accept that some aspects are more developed than others? Can anyone really do it? I haven't seen a true MMO utopia yet. For people that claim WoW is great, I'd like to ask, why'd you stop playing it?

However, I do know this, MMOs are evolving games, and everybody wants to have a majority stake in it. I can only hope that we do not deny the interests of others with our own vision of game evolution.

Edit :
Lastly, I'd like to ask everyone, how much is your dollar worth? Do you not think it funny that we pay the prices for our everyday things without much complaint when we don't have a choice and bargain when we do?





Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 4:25am by renmabiao
#37 Jan 03 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,202 posts
renmabiao wrote:
Hi all,

My reply to this post will try to be as understandable as possible because to me, it is very hard to grasp and convey. I hope I do not confuse nor agitate anyone here. If you can see something from my ramblings, please, help me put it in better light.

Doctor Mog kinda pulled something very close to my heart, because I too, was from a time when all I had were primitive games like load runner, archon and early ultima games to pass time. Perhaps this is why when I play modern games, my tolerance levels are higher because during those times, the games do not evolve themselves, you like it or you don't, the money is gone once you got it off the shelf. Modern gamers have such a huge selection out there, and perhaps, did not see the 'dark ages of gaming'.

Is it flawed to forgive the standards we have now because older gamers have seen the 'real bad'? I really don't know. To me, the more pertinent question is, do gamers really think it get can alot better 'effortlessly'?

In an interview, Tanaka mentioned that he never quite expected players to turn to self-sufficiency as opposed to forming relationships to get relevant skills for progression. Perhaps it is true that the social vehicle is not there to facilitate this, but then again, in the old days, players always found a way with the tools given, regardless of how bad they are. I think there is a generation gap to this, people now consult google (AH and guide sites) for all the information they want, service to consumer is so automated and impersonal these days. This is very different from my time where information and services need to go through a search process through your own social networks; we do it so often that it is no longer a 'hassle' to us, very much like washing dishes.

Yoshida mentions that players need to know the rules in order to enjoy the game, that statement to me; along with the current state of ff14 suggests that there are alot of players out there that prefer to excel at a game with specific constraints as rules that narrow the scope of the game rather than determine their own game given a sandbox, kinda like the sims vs. counterstrike.

I personally feel that MMOs have a dilemma, because I think some players see progression by the achievements in items &/ titles they get, some players by overcoming the difficulty of encounters, etc... and they all converge to 1 point, which to me is, "do I excel and/or enjoy this game?", and many players differ in opinion.

Why do I say excel and/or enjoy? I liken it to many sports fans out there that like for e.g. football but don't really necessarily excel at it. When you put the two together in a social context like MMOs, suddenly, players start to get self-conscious and ego comes into the picture.

The SE developers mention that think MMOs are a huge theme park with many different games, but will the player base accept that some aspects are more developed than others? Can anyone really do it? I haven't seen a true MMO utopia yet. For people that claim WoW is great, I'd like to ask, why'd you stop playing it?

However, I do know this, MMOs are evolving games, and everybody wants to have a majority stake in it. I can only hope that we do not deny the interests of others with our own vision of game evolution.




I play World Of Warcraft, and i dont think is the MMO Utopia, i have never really felt as inmersed in wow as i did for example in EQOA, from that game foward no game has match the experience i had in it, and that game was a grind fromv lvl 1-50-60 with some quest here and there, but what that game did great in my view, was that from day 1 everything that was gonna be there before the first expansion was there, if i wanted to go as a lvl 1 Sk and try and sneak inside Lady Vox Dungeon, i could and i would get pwned, there where regular mobs, elite mobs, bosses, named mobs, big bad end game bosses, dungeons(Not istanced) and a very big variety of mobs, i remember in my server we did a raid on lady vox, and nobody had reached the cap level, so it was around 100-200 toons between lvl 1-45 fighting big red icon monsters, and it was a blast, that to me was fun even tho today i would not touch a heavy grind MMO based game.

Now the problem i found with FFXIV is that from day 1 there was nothing to do, sure grind dodo's and leave's but what if i wanted to get pwned by some named boss holding down a broken down fort or something ? what about the empire? there is this big bad empire around but nowhere to be seen, and this is the antagonist of this game <.< To me is a big problem when a lvl 1 noob is as clueless about the empire as the lvl cap guy, that is a flaw in game design, in wow for example when it was released Ragnaros was there, Onyxia was there, and their plot was there, you knew why and where they where, from launch i knew where the PVE part of the game was going, and why, in FFXIV i was like "Hmm ok so big empire attacked years ago, now they seem to be back, but where the **** are they? who leads them? why are they doing what they are doing? whos that guy that looks like grahf ?"

See some people, think is a generation thing, to me it's as simple as "SE failed to deliver a game that could live up to 1998-2003 standard's" that simple, EQOA was a ps2 based MMO and had more content at launch than this game has to date. That's why it failed and it will continue to fail(At least in my eye's)
____________________________
MUTED
#38 Jan 03 2011 at 3:44 AM Rating: Good
*
72 posts
I see where you're driving at Ostia, to say ff14 has failed in the perspective you mentioned is true, but to say it WILL continue to fail is kinda iffy.

I'm willing to give ff14 time to evolve I guess, which is the difference perhaps?

Edit :
I'd like to add that my view is TAINTED from the average consumer because I have been on the other side : providing a gaming service to a gamer; Thus, why I am more forgiving.. but as far as standards go, I'd say ff14 sucks for most gamers out there, and is great for... the minority me.

I just have doubts that any gaming service can survive long enough to provide that 'ideal' environment in the current reality of high cost development vs. gain.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 4:48am by renmabiao
#39 Jan 03 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
164 posts
i consider myself to be a very casual gamer. i have a wife and a job... and not a kid but a very needy dog >.> lol i personally get ****** off at casual gamers too that expect they deserve everything that hardcore gamers get. i like to play but i like to see the hardcore gamers rewarded and be in awe so-to-speak. the only thing that i do not enjoy is when those rewards for hardcore gamers become the staple and neccessity of enjoying the game. sometimes on a saturday or sunday i will commit a large amount of time to the game to get a decent reward and i am glad they are out there, so for hardcore gamers i expect that there should be more of those rewards for them. but i believe rewards should be split into two catergories. time spent over time and large time spent at once. i can't easily commit 6 hrs to a game all at once to do a huge raid or whatever. so i feel just in asking for a piece of gear at 75% equivalent that may take 10 hours of my time in small chunks.
____________________________


#40 Jan 03 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
*
241 posts
I see where you're coming from, for sure. Back in the day, when the internet was in its infancy, I had dial up, if I wanted to watch a video sampling of a game in action, I had to wait a half hour, and I could watch a 30 second video at low resolution. Back then, the most exciting thing for me was when a new PSM came in the mail. I'd bring it to school the next day and look through it during lunch with my friends.

I also, didn't have a job back then, I was young, didn't have a license, so money was scarce, I got about 5 games a year, 2 for my birthday, 3 for christmas, sometimes more, sometimes less, I was much more likely to play through a game and finish it back then, simply because I had no other options.

I think there are a lot of good games out there these days that don't get the attention they deserve (Beyond Good and Evil), but I think that there are a lot of bad games as well, as the industry has gotten more popular, there are more people in it to make the quick buck, rather than making something that they themselves would wanna play.

I think the biggest reason that FFXIV was disliked by so many players is how many steps backwards it took, even from FFXI. It's like they had their memories erased by the men in black, and they started this game as if they had never developed a game before. They found out they had the technology to make pretty graphics, but the gameplay and features are just years behind.
____________________________
There once was a tiger striped cat. This cat died a million deaths and was reborn a million times and was owned by various people who he didn't care for. The cat wasn't afraid to die... One day, the cat was a free cat, a stray cat. He met a white female cat, and the two cats spent their days happily together. Years passed, and the white cat died of old age. The tiger striped cat cried a million times, and then died. It never
came back to life.
#41 Jan 03 2011 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,080 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
I suppose I wish that the people that left had given it more of a chance. From the Dev feedback, they are trying extremely hard to win back some of the players that left, but because of the mentality I spoke of, I doubt they will even give a glance back to the game. (some might)

You see, I think they would enjoy things once SE makes some changes, but they won't ever give it a chance =/


I'm lurking here mostly, seeing the changes slowly being made. I think I gave it a pretty good chance considering I started in the alpha. For me personally, the biggest roadblock is the heavy emphasis on crafting which, to be frank, I despise. I think my highest craft in FFXI was fishing at 47 after 3 yrs. I wasn't expecting Final Crafting Fantasy. It's a personal preference tho, not game mechanics or lack of an ah, etc.
I spent a serious amount of money upgrading my pc, ordering the CE, so if enough things are changed in time I will probably give it another chance. My issues with crafting in general were simply compounded by the absence of an auction house.
____________________________
A reader lives a thousand lives, the man who never reads lives only one. - George R.R. Martin
#42 Jan 03 2011 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
@ Ostia.

If you think the antagonist or the big bad wolf is FFXIV is The Garlean Empire then either your storyline quests have taken you to different cut scenes than me or you didn't pay enough attention when doing them.

In my (limited) opinion the antagonists are much more likkly to be the Ascian or even the Primals.
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#43 Jan 03 2011 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
Sage
**
534 posts
As an old **** who's been playing games since pong and Atari...I am in agreement that the younger generation does not have the patience that us older players have. The younger generation also seems to excel very quickly in something that they enjoy. I see it in gaming...and I also see it in the workplace.

Also...Starting up a new MMO is kind of like an interview. Trailers and word of mouth are the resume...and the first few minutes of playing will ultimately decide whether or not you will be consumed. Unlike music...games do not tend to "grow on you". For those who played FFXI...do you remember the feeling of when you first arrived. I can pretty much guarantee you did not have that same feeling in XIV. Part of the reason is the mystery was gone from the beginning. You already new a ton about the game. Possibly already made up your mind about it. Too much information will dull your senses as well as dull the "fun" factor.

There seems to be a ton of factors that are hurting the gaming industry...and I don't really see a solution.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 11:18am by Simool
____________________________
Amos Fin - Ultros

#44 Jan 03 2011 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
4,773 posts
Wait a minute.

Rog... you do realize there's a V at the end of this boards right? This isn't the FFXI boards... ok...?

... *stares*


*sighs*

Dammit, and I was enjoying my Rog-Free zone.
#45 Jan 03 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
**
447 posts
A lot of great discussion here, one I've had in my head for days randomly sorting through.

That said, the game just isn't fun.

I'm 30, so likely a little older than some on these boards, and usually have a good deal of patience. I would like to think I've had more than enough patience with FFXIV. Unfortunately for SE, I am a single father of two, work full time, and can only tolerate so much to support my hobby. My hobbies should be fun, not painful & irritaing, which FFXIV is.

I don't know that it has anything to do with the mentality of MMO players, but moreso to do with a product that doesn't meet minimum standards. Most of the things I see wrong with FFXIV aren't earth shattering mechanics. Didn't help they tried to fix things that weren't broke.


____________________________
FFXIV:
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)


FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]


#46 Jan 03 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Hyrist wrote:
Wait a minute.

Rog... you do realize there's a V at the end of this boards right? This isn't the FFXI boards... ok...?

... *stares*


*sighs*

Dammit, and I was enjoying my Rog-Free zone.
Sorry, i'll be leaving again as soon as this thread ends.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#47 Jan 03 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
e Atari first came out, sure it was absolutely impressive. But that no longer is the case. As technology improves, we expect more from it. There is nothing impressive about an atari in 2011.


Thats the downfall of video gaming... People want more of X (= Graphics and other UNIMPORTANT things) so the producers have less time for Y (= Gameplay, Story, Content and other IMPORTANT things).

All of my favourite games have a crap graphic when compared to FFXIII/FFXIV.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:34pm by CroBudi
#48 Jan 03 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
**
429 posts
As someone who grew up with a NES and a 486 computer... I have no tolerance for crappy or slow games. My spare time is getting shorter and shorter, and if I have to wait for an MMO to get good, then I'll simply put it down on my bad MMOs list.

It's strange that it's only acceptable for MMOs to have a period of not-fun before getting to the fun stuff. Try that with an FPS, or a strategy game, or a platformer, and it'll be laughed at all the way to the bargain bin.
#49 Jan 03 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
******
29,185 posts
Wolfums wrote:
It's strange that it's only acceptable for MMOs to have a period of not-fun before getting to the fun stuff. Try that with an FPS, or a strategy game, or a platformer, and it'll be laughed at all the way to the bargain bin.
I don't think it's not fun, so much as less fun. If it's not fun at all, it's a bit silly to continue playing it.
____________________________
BANNED

Creator and Leader of the Anti-Rog faction
#50 Jan 03 2011 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
225 posts
The trouble with FFXIV, is people either expected a FFXI copy or a WoW copy. Not many expected the game to have it's own merits (Even today people want basic classes, rather then experincing a new approach to classes). The concept of ranking out and not up prooved to be difficult for some gamers minds to wrap around.

Granted, SE released FFXIV way too soon, it should still be in beta, which for the most part it is.

The unfortunate result may be alot of core mechanics being dropped, in favor of ease of use. The reality of graphic intensive games, is alot of compromise, either the devs tone down the graphics in favor of either a bigger audience and/or game progression, or leave the graphics have a smaller audience and less game progression. Rift will find itself in the same predictament, catering to the top end video cards will not get you a bigger audience.

Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.

The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.

RPGs are supposed to challenge your thinking, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, both gamers and devs have lost sight of this foundation. And those of us who are old school gamers feel cheated out of our genre, because of ******* cheating and profit. Nothing should be gained without an ounce of effort, it's a very poor game experince to say the least. It is all to clear when you have carried on your back an immense amount of players who had made very little effort into the game.

Being a casual player is not an excuse for being a bad player, as someone who does have a job a child a life, I still manage to put effort into the time I do have. I don't expect to get a free ride, I do expect to be challenged in the games I play, this is the very reason I play the MMO genre in the first place.

There is a question, that every old school gamer should ask themselves, should "casual" gaming being used as a crutch, to ruin my game experince and my expectations of the MMO genere I have been playing for years?

I can honestly say no, I don't enjoy what time I do have to game spent wasted "wiping it up", to these bad players who put no effort into the game.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:55pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:58pm by Spyrit178
____________________________


#51 Jan 03 2011 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
**
429 posts
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Wolfums wrote:
It's strange that it's only acceptable for MMOs to have a period of not-fun before getting to the fun stuff. Try that with an FPS, or a strategy game, or a platformer, and it'll be laughed at all the way to the bargain bin.
I don't think it's not fun, so much as less fun. If it's not fun at all, it's a bit silly to continue playing it.


It's different for every person I guess. Personally I just hate having to wait for groups and grinding things. Hated it in old school WOW, hated it in FFXI, hated it in Aion, hated it in FFXIV. I find setting up camp somewhere to kill mobs only to get experience as boring as ****, regardless of the group or environment or whatever. At least with kill task style quests and leves, I do some running around and get some flavor text and kill a variety of mobs.

And a lot of people are starting to feel this way more and more. People get older, they have less spare time and have to spend their own money on games. We also have "non-gamers" coming in to the market wondering why X game is unintuitive, why Y game takes so long to get to fun parts, etc.

And yeah, I'm not playing FFXIV anymore. I'm flip-flopping between Aion and WOW and keeping up with FFXIV news until I can get a definitive answer on what kind of MMO it's going to be.
« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 21 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (21)