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#52 Jan 03 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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Spyrit178 wrote:
The trouble with FFXIV, is people either expected a FFXI copy or a WoW copy. Not many expected the game to have it's own merits (Even today people want basic classes, rather then experincing a new approach to classes). The concept of ranking out and not up prooved to be difficult for some gamers minds to wrap around.

Granted, SE released FFXIV way too soon, it should still be in beta, which for the most part it is.

The unfortunate result may be alot of core mechanics being dropped, in favor of ease of use. The reality of graphic intensive games, is alot of compromise, either the devs tone down the graphics in favor of either a bigger audience and/or game progression, or leave the graphics have a smaller audience and less game progression. Rift will find itself in the same predictament, catering to the top end video cards will not get you a bigger audience.

Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.

The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.

RPGs are supposed to challenge your thinking, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, both gamers and devs have lost sight of this foundation. And those of us who are old school gamers feel cheated out of our genre, because of ******* cheating and profit. Nothing should be gained without an ounce of effort, it's a very poor game experince to say the least. It is all to clear when you have carried on your back an immense amount of players who had made very little effort into the game.

Being a casual player is not an excuse for being a bad player, as someone who does have a job a child a life, I still manage to put effort into the time I do have. I don't expect to get a free ride, I do expect to be challenged in the games I play, this is the very reason I play the MMO genre in the first place.

There is a question, that every old school gamer should ask themselves, should "casual" gaming being used as a crutch, to ruin my game experince and my expectations of the MMO genere I have been playing for years?

I can honestly say no, I don't enjoy what time I do have to game spent wasted "wiping it up", to these bad players who put no effort into the game.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:55pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:58pm by Spyrit178


Old school gamers for some reason, tend to mix time consuming with "Challenge" back in the day, there was nothing challenging in MMO'S, unless you count grinding, camping, and zerging (Tank and spank) bosses a challenge...

Also considering the most profitable MMO has made the grinding to cap level a walk in the park, and still brings in more money than all other MMO combined, seems to contradict that notion that the money is in the grind <.<
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#53 Jan 03 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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225 posts
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
The trouble with FFXIV, is people either expected a FFXI copy or a WoW copy. Not many expected the game to have it's own merits (Even today people want basic classes, rather then experincing a new approach to classes). The concept of ranking out and not up prooved to be difficult for some gamers minds to wrap around.

Granted, SE released FFXIV way too soon, it should still be in beta, which for the most part it is.

The unfortunate result may be alot of core mechanics being dropped, in favor of ease of use. The reality of graphic intensive games, is alot of compromise, either the devs tone down the graphics in favor of either a bigger audience and/or game progression, or leave the graphics have a smaller audience and less game progression. Rift will find itself in the same predictament, catering to the top end video cards will not get you a bigger audience.

Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.

The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.

RPGs are supposed to challenge your thinking, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, both gamers and devs have lost sight of this foundation. And those of us who are old school gamers feel cheated out of our genre, because of ******* cheating and profit. Nothing should be gained without an ounce of effort, it's a very poor game experince to say the least. It is all to clear when you have carried on your back an immense amount of players who had made very little effort into the game.

Being a casual player is not an excuse for being a bad player, as someone who does have a job a child a life, I still manage to put effort into the time I do have. I don't expect to get a free ride, I do expect to be challenged in the games I play, this is the very reason I play the MMO genre in the first place.

There is a question, that every old school gamer should ask themselves, should "casual" gaming being used as a crutch, to ruin my game experince and my expectations of the MMO genere I have been playing for years?

I can honestly say no, I don't enjoy what time I do have to game spent wasted "wiping it up", to these bad players who put no effort into the game.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:55pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:58pm by Spyrit178


Old school gamers for some reason, tend to mix time consuming with "Challenge" back in the day, there was nothing challenging in MMO'S, unless you count grinding, camping, and zerging (Tank and spank) bosses a challenge...

Also considering the most profitable MMO has made the grinding to cap level a walk in the park, and still brings in more money than all other MMO combined, seems to contradict that notion that the money is in the grind <.<


How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.

What would some of WoW players do when even certain normal mobs would make them cringe w/e they agroed them (Gobbie growl anyone?) or a normal mob that would make you think twice about fighting it. (Bad breath was a treat). That even the simple grind can turn exciting in a heartbeat. Those days, sad to say are slowly coming to an end, because children these days need to cheat their way through an MMO, how sad is that.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:39pm by Spyrit178
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#54 Jan 03 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
Spyrit178 wrote:
How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.


Amen!
#55 Jan 03 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
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43 posts
Hello,
My 2 cents are this, Gamers are looking for that epic feeling of achievement that only comes with extremely hard work but they want it in a farmville package. I mean come on now that feeling of finally finishing that horribly long COP mission line. Was it a pain sure, but the feeling of knowing that you had accomplished something was the true reward. I see people complaining all the time that this game takes to long, well ok sure chocobos would be great but they are not making or breaking this game.
Where did people get the idea that 1 hour a day play time should be a realistic investment in an mmo? Regardless of your personal time alotments this is not what the mmo design is meant to do at all, but instead it is an imersion environment where you go to play as a epic knight or evil wizzard. Not to bash the casuals but maybe if you have 1 hour a day then mmo's may not be the best investment of your time, regardless of whether you would really like to play them. I would love to take a tour of the world and see the many great and wonderfull things out there but my 2 week vacation simply isnt enough time, so instead I go to the caribeans and enjoy what IS realistic in my alloted time frame. FFxi was a niche game that had over 500k players in its hay day and that is why it was cutting edge it had that sense of acomplishment. The gaming industrie and even the gamers seem to have misplaced the fact that immersion requires time. If a casual mmo is your thing then perhaps go to wow try it again they really are focused on making life easy and for some thats great, To me besides the total lack of content in xiv the next step is give me tactical gameplay then they have a winner, Without cutting the level curve or putting a 5 minute respawn timer on all nms so we all get 3 chances a day to claim one. with out the challenge it becomes the sims not a mmo. Wow sorry what a wall of text, lol ok now I put on my flame retardant suit and await the wrath of the casual!
Thanks,
Big Jer
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#56 Jan 03 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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429 posts
Spyrit178 wrote:
How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.


Have you tried heroic or hard modes? Or Cataclysm yet?

The majority of WOW players would be just fine carrying out stun rotations because there's plenty of WOW bosses that require an interrupt rotation or tank rotation, or whatever. Most FFXI end game was not as difficult as you make it out to be. The only reason people didn't PUG things in FFXI was because it took months to get pop items or whatever, and loot rights were harder to control.

And please, don't speak for the rest of us. It's obvious that the majority of players don't want extremely difficult games. Some challenge is good, but not the kind that makes you want to tear out your hair when you can't do it or fail at it. MMOs and games in general are evolving. Developers no longer need to make something frustratingly difficult in order to make people keep playing the same game.

And fyi, wiping to people being stupid is no worse than wiping because some bosses had random *** moves.
#57 Jan 03 2011 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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523 posts
Wolfums wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.


Have you tried heroic or hard modes? Or Cataclysm yet?

The majority of WOW players would be just fine carrying out stun rotations because there's plenty of WOW bosses that require an interrupt rotation or tank rotation, or whatever. Most FFXI end game was not as difficult as you make it out to be. The only reason people didn't PUG things in FFXI was because it took months to get pop items or whatever, and loot rights were harder to control.

And please, don't speak for the rest of us. It's obvious that the majority of players don't want extremely difficult games. Some challenge is good, but not the kind that makes you want to tear out your hair when you can't do it or fail at it. MMOs and games in general are evolving. Developers no longer need to make something frustratingly difficult in order to make people keep playing the same game.

And fyi, wiping to people being stupid is no worse than wiping because some bosses had random *** moves.


I must say, for someone who doesn't want to be spoken for, you sure do a good job of speaking for the whole community.

I for one would welcome some harder content.
#58 Jan 03 2011 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.


Have you tried heroic or hard modes? Or Cataclysm yet?

The majority of WOW players would be just fine carrying out stun rotations because there's plenty of WOW bosses that require an interrupt rotation or tank rotation, or whatever. Most FFXI end game was not as difficult as you make it out to be. The only reason people didn't PUG things in FFXI was because it took months to get pop items or whatever, and loot rights were harder to control.

And please, don't speak for the rest of us. It's obvious that the majority of players don't want extremely difficult games. Some challenge is good, but not the kind that makes you want to tear out your hair when you can't do it or fail at it. MMOs and games in general are evolving. Developers no longer need to make something frustratingly difficult in order to make people keep playing the same game.

And fyi, wiping to people being stupid is no worse than wiping because some bosses had random *** moves.


Yes I have done hard modes, have you ever done hard modes with pugs? With people who had put very little effort into raiding, it ruins the experince completely. There should be some sort of effort put into the game to be at that point in the game, not because x player couldn't show for the even, and some experinced guild was forced to pickup a "geared" pug with no raid experince. There is no excuse to not put forth any effort into a game and get access to all content. You didn't need 16 hour days to get to hard mode in WoW. But you did need some sort of effort, and from what I'm seeing on the current WoW forums Cata is easysauce, no big surprise really. Have you ever sat down and actually played the real DnD? Have you ever really played any RPG? They all shared the same thing effort, and overcoming challenges were rewarded, there were no nerfs, no free rides, no cheats.

Reputation based on skill should be a priority, not laziness or lack of effort rewarded. Mediocracy should be frowned on in the MMO genre, not the forefront of game designed. Compare the pugs of BC and vannilla to the pugs of Wrath and Cata, Vannilla, BC pugs played 100 times better than Wrath and Cata, because player skill ment something.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:01pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:07pm by Spyrit178
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#59 Jan 03 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Let me explain my view on the MMO mentality most players put out there in the forums. And it is going to neither favor nor put down any game in specific, just games as a whole.


Players, in forums, NEVER represent the majority, why you ask? because the whiners are the majority, they are the ones who are the most outspoken and just dont know when to shut up. What you end up getting in most MMO forums(except Lego universe cuz thats 100% moderated even to make a single post has to be approved) is this mentality where people go on there for 2 things, to complain, and to ask for help. sure you get other stuff in between but a majority of it falls into those 2 catagories.

But lets get on to the mentality of new games coming out.

It is no secret people want to get away from Warcraft and play something new. Many of its players, are there just because they dont want to do anything else yet or they have found anything else. Many hate it, but they are so invested they just can not stop at this point. Doing so will make them feel like they threw a huge chunk of their life away in a character they will no longer have(the same can be said about many MMOs who have been around for several years at this point).

But what happens then is this, and its a sad truth

Players talk about what they want in new MMOs

"Warcraft is too easy, give us something harder"
"FFXI is too grindy and requires too much party play, give us something where we can solo"

and it goes on, but this is what happens to EVERY MMO that comes out now


Players: "We want a game thats harder then warcraft"
New game comes out, giving players exactly what they asked for
Players: "OMG its not warcraft, give us warcraft!"
And in some cases, changes get made to make it more like warcraft....
Players "OMG we dont want warcraft stop it!"


and its sad but true, no matter what the developers do, people will complain, because as stated above, the main people who go to the forums in most games, are people who have something to complain about. I have watched this happen over countless MMOs in the last 2 years now and its just getting sad at this point. Players do not know what they want, even if they are handed exactly what they ask for, it is NOT what they want apperently.
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#60 Jan 03 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:
For those who played FFXI...do you remember the feeling of when you first arrived. I can pretty much guarantee you did not have that same feeling in XIV. Part of the reason is the mystery was gone from the beginning. You already new a ton about the game. Possibly already made up your mind about it. Too much information will dull your senses as well as dull the "fun" factor.


I can agree with this comment. I still have a huge binder with about 300 pages of printed information regarding FFXI... it was an MMO with lots to experience and do

FFXIV, not so much
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#61 Jan 03 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
Spyrit178 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
The trouble with FFXIV, is people either expected a FFXI copy or a WoW copy. Not many expected the game to have it's own merits (Even today people want basic classes, rather then experincing a new approach to classes). The concept of ranking out and not up prooved to be difficult for some gamers minds to wrap around.

Granted, SE released FFXIV way too soon, it should still be in beta, which for the most part it is.

The unfortunate result may be alot of core mechanics being dropped, in favor of ease of use. The reality of graphic intensive games, is alot of compromise, either the devs tone down the graphics in favor of either a bigger audience and/or game progression, or leave the graphics have a smaller audience and less game progression. Rift will find itself in the same predictament, catering to the top end video cards will not get you a bigger audience.

Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.

The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.

RPGs are supposed to challenge your thinking, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, both gamers and devs have lost sight of this foundation. And those of us who are old school gamers feel cheated out of our genre, because of ******* cheating and profit. Nothing should be gained without an ounce of effort, it's a very poor game experince to say the least. It is all to clear when you have carried on your back an immense amount of players who had made very little effort into the game.

Being a casual player is not an excuse for being a bad player, as someone who does have a job a child a life, I still manage to put effort into the time I do have. I don't expect to get a free ride, I do expect to be challenged in the games I play, this is the very reason I play the MMO genre in the first place.

There is a question, that every old school gamer should ask themselves, should "casual" gaming being used as a crutch, to ruin my game experince and my expectations of the MMO genere I have been playing for years?

I can honestly say no, I don't enjoy what time I do have to game spent wasted "wiping it up", to these bad players who put no effort into the game.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:55pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:58pm by Spyrit178


Old school gamers for some reason, tend to mix time consuming with "Challenge" back in the day, there was nothing challenging in MMO'S, unless you count grinding, camping, and zerging (Tank and spank) bosses a challenge...

Also considering the most profitable MMO has made the grinding to cap level a walk in the park, and still brings in more money than all other MMO combined, seems to contradict that notion that the money is in the grind <.<


How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.

What would some of WoW players do when even certain normal mobs would make them cringe w/e they agroed them (Gobbie growl anyone?) or a normal mob that would make you think twice about fighting it. (Bad breath was a treat). That even the simple grind can turn exciting in a heartbeat. Those days, sad to say are slowly coming to an end, because children these days need to cheat their way through an MMO, how sad is that.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:39pm by Spyrit178


Funny you should mention a stun rotation, since i play a "Rogue" :) and well every class has atleast 1 or 2 forms of CC, so i dont see a problem stunning anything, what i do find funny is how you only mention the most "Casual" friendly expansion in WOW, that being WOTLK, how bout Vanilla or BC wich where hardcore catered, or Cataclysm, where a heroic dungeon takes you 2-3 hours to clear and CC is a MUST ? What about the fact that if you wanted a challenge in wotlk there where Hard mode's wich for example not even 3% of the entire pop downed ULD HM, or ICC HM when they where relevant, seems to me that somebody misses being a unique snowflake lol
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#62 Jan 03 2011 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Spyrit178 wrote:
Wolfums wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.


Have you tried heroic or hard modes? Or Cataclysm yet?

The majority of WOW players would be just fine carrying out stun rotations because there's plenty of WOW bosses that require an interrupt rotation or tank rotation, or whatever. Most FFXI end game was not as difficult as you make it out to be. The only reason people didn't PUG things in FFXI was because it took months to get pop items or whatever, and loot rights were harder to control.

And please, don't speak for the rest of us. It's obvious that the majority of players don't want extremely difficult games. Some challenge is good, but not the kind that makes you want to tear out your hair when you can't do it or fail at it. MMOs and games in general are evolving. Developers no longer need to make something frustratingly difficult in order to make people keep playing the same game.

And fyi, wiping to people being stupid is no worse than wiping because some bosses had random *** moves.


Yes I have done hard modes, have you ever done hard modes with pugs? With people who had put very little effort into raiding, it ruins the experince completely. There should be some sort of effort put into the game to be at that point in the game, not because x player couldn't show for the even, and some experinced guild was forced to pickup a "geared" pug with no raid experince. There is no excuse to not put forth any effort into a game and get access to all content. You didn't need 16 hour days to get to hard mode in WoW. But you did need some sort of effort, and from what I'm seeing on the current WoW forums Cata is easysauce, no big surprise really. Have you ever sat down and actually played the real DnD? Have you ever really played any RPG? They all shared the same thing effort, and overcoming challenges were rewarded, there were no nerfs, no free rides, no cheats.

Reputation based on skill should be a priority, not laziness or lack of effort rewarded. Mediocracy should be frowned on in the MMO genre, not the forefront of game designed. Compare the pugs of BC and vannilla to the pugs of Wrath and Cata, Vannilla, BC pugs played 100 times better than Wrath and Cata, because player skill ment something.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:01pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:07pm by Spyrit178


The problem with that assertion is that the bulk of people are mediocre at best. That's why "average" is average, and not "above average". Statistically speaking, half of the people who play are average or worse and only half are better. The top 10% of players only comprises 10% of the total players. So the big problem is that when you design content for the top 25% of players, the other 75% are going to complain that it is too hard because they aren't good enough to beat it. When you design content for the top 5% of players, 95% of players are going to complain that it is too hard.

One of the Halo games... it was either Reach or ODST had this problem, where they ranked players based on percentage. One rank was the top 1% of players, the next rank was the top 10%, the next was the top 25%... something like that. Of course the problem that this very quickly lead to was that you had more than half of the players complaining that they weren't in the top 1%, COMPLETELY missing the logic there.

I would appreciate harder content that is more challenging, but the fact is: Some players are simply better than other players. And any players who are not good enough to beat the content you are offering them are going to complain that the content is too hard.

This leaves you with four options:

1) Create hard content to please the good players and all of the average and bad players complain.
2) Create medium content to please the average players. Good players complain it's too easy and there is no challenge, bad players complain that it's STILL too hard.
3) Create easy content to please bad players. Average players complain it's too easy, good players complain that it's faceroll easy, and terrible players STILL complain it's too hard.
4) Create scaling content that lets players choose the difficulty. Good players complain about bad players being able to beat the same content, bad players complain that the higher difficulties that the good players can beat it on is too hard for them. Average players complain that there's no incentive to do the easy mode but that the hard mode is too hard. Terrible players still complain that there needs to be an even easier mode because they still can't beat it.

The ultimate result is, no matter how easy or how hard you design your content, you simply can't please everyone. Either you make it difficult such that some people are simply excluded, you make it easy such that some people aren't challenged, or you offer players the option to choose their own difficulty and you somehow manage to end up with everyone complaining.

You just can't win.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#63 Jan 03 2011 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
26 posts
I'm with DoctorMog on this one. People say they want a challenge,
but they're actions say they don't. How many people actually play
games without guides--actually explore the world without being told
what to do? I'd say very few. Too many players want to get somewhere
yesterday. Leveling is too much of a time sink; they don't want to
do it. They want challenging mobs and endgame and yet they are too
impatient for that as well; they go into these battles expecting
success on the first try; they read about how the hardcore players
succeeded and ape them; they don't have the patience to fail and try
again to succeed on their own.

There is too much impatience and, in some cases, it can make people
less able to have fun. And no, this isn't meant to absolve SE from
rushing the game; chalk that up to the same impatience that some
players are plagued with. There's enough of it to go around and
does no one any good.
#64 Jan 03 2011 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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225 posts
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
The trouble with FFXIV, is people either expected a FFXI copy or a WoW copy. Not many expected the game to have it's own merits (Even today people want basic classes, rather then experincing a new approach to classes). The concept of ranking out and not up prooved to be difficult for some gamers minds to wrap around.

Granted, SE released FFXIV way too soon, it should still be in beta, which for the most part it is.

The unfortunate result may be alot of core mechanics being dropped, in favor of ease of use. The reality of graphic intensive games, is alot of compromise, either the devs tone down the graphics in favor of either a bigger audience and/or game progression, or leave the graphics have a smaller audience and less game progression. Rift will find itself in the same predictament, catering to the top end video cards will not get you a bigger audience.

Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.

The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.

RPGs are supposed to challenge your thinking, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, both gamers and devs have lost sight of this foundation. And those of us who are old school gamers feel cheated out of our genre, because of ******* cheating and profit. Nothing should be gained without an ounce of effort, it's a very poor game experince to say the least. It is all to clear when you have carried on your back an immense amount of players who had made very little effort into the game.

Being a casual player is not an excuse for being a bad player, as someone who does have a job a child a life, I still manage to put effort into the time I do have. I don't expect to get a free ride, I do expect to be challenged in the games I play, this is the very reason I play the MMO genre in the first place.

There is a question, that every old school gamer should ask themselves, should "casual" gaming being used as a crutch, to ruin my game experince and my expectations of the MMO genere I have been playing for years?

I can honestly say no, I don't enjoy what time I do have to game spent wasted "wiping it up", to these bad players who put no effort into the game.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:55pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:58pm by Spyrit178


Old school gamers for some reason, tend to mix time consuming with "Challenge" back in the day, there was nothing challenging in MMO'S, unless you count grinding, camping, and zerging (Tank and spank) bosses a challenge...

Also considering the most profitable MMO has made the grinding to cap level a walk in the park, and still brings in more money than all other MMO combined, seems to contradict that notion that the money is in the grind <.<


How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.

What would some of WoW players do when even certain normal mobs would make them cringe w/e they agroed them (Gobbie growl anyone?) or a normal mob that would make you think twice about fighting it. (Bad breath was a treat). That even the simple grind can turn exciting in a heartbeat. Those days, sad to say are slowly coming to an end, because children these days need to cheat their way through an MMO, how sad is that.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:39pm by Spyrit178


Funny you should mention a stun rotation, since i play a "Rogue" :) and well every class has atleast 1 or 2 forms of CC, so i dont see a problem stunning anything, what i do find funny is how you only mention the most "Casual" friendly expansion in WOW, that being WOTLK, how bout Vanilla or BC wich where hardcore catered, or Cataclysm, where a heroic dungeon takes you 2-3 hours to clear and CC is a MUST ? What about the fact that if you wanted a challenge in wotlk there where Hard mode's wich for example not even 3% of the entire pop downed ULD HM, or ICC HM when they where relevant, seems to me that somebody misses being a unique snowflake lol


The sense of accomplishment is what I missed playing WoW, that died when they released Wrath. It was the very reason why I quit. I am a casual gamer, I did raid in all bc and wrath raids, I did put forth effort of earning a repuation as a good player, can you say the same thing? Seems to me someone is **** bent in being stuck with only Mediocre, I hated being forced to play with players who made no effort in thier skill or thier game, and all they do is sit and whine and get purples they didnt put the effort into, they ruined my gaming experince, I don't consider wiping for 4 hours straight, because of these types of players an enjoyable gaming experince. I was just not getting my moneys worth.

The I don't have alot of time type whiners, are the very people that keep wasting what little time I have.



Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:34pm by Spyrit178
____________________________


#65 Jan 03 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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9,997 posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

As I said. Not a particularly well-written wiki, but it more or less explains the reason why players will always demand more.

The gist of it is that players want new experiences. New experiences are good. Games that continue to provide the same or similar experiences will continue to be outclassed by games that provide a wide variety of experiences. i.e., killing the same bunny the same way in the same place, versus killing different monsters in different ways in different places.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Jan 03 2011 at 2:42 PM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Spyrit178 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
The trouble with FFXIV, is people either expected a FFXI copy or a WoW copy. Not many expected the game to have it's own merits (Even today people want basic classes, rather then experincing a new approach to classes). The concept of ranking out and not up prooved to be difficult for some gamers minds to wrap around.

Granted, SE released FFXIV way too soon, it should still be in beta, which for the most part it is.

The unfortunate result may be alot of core mechanics being dropped, in favor of ease of use. The reality of graphic intensive games, is alot of compromise, either the devs tone down the graphics in favor of either a bigger audience and/or game progression, or leave the graphics have a smaller audience and less game progression. Rift will find itself in the same predictament, catering to the top end video cards will not get you a bigger audience.

Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.

The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.

RPGs are supposed to challenge your thinking, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, both gamers and devs have lost sight of this foundation. And those of us who are old school gamers feel cheated out of our genre, because of ******* cheating and profit. Nothing should be gained without an ounce of effort, it's a very poor game experince to say the least. It is all to clear when you have carried on your back an immense amount of players who had made very little effort into the game.

Being a casual player is not an excuse for being a bad player, as someone who does have a job a child a life, I still manage to put effort into the time I do have. I don't expect to get a free ride, I do expect to be challenged in the games I play, this is the very reason I play the MMO genre in the first place.

There is a question, that every old school gamer should ask themselves, should "casual" gaming being used as a crutch, to ruin my game experince and my expectations of the MMO genere I have been playing for years?

I can honestly say no, I don't enjoy what time I do have to game spent wasted "wiping it up", to these bad players who put no effort into the game.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:55pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:58pm by Spyrit178


Old school gamers for some reason, tend to mix time consuming with "Challenge" back in the day, there was nothing challenging in MMO'S, unless you count grinding, camping, and zerging (Tank and spank) bosses a challenge...

Also considering the most profitable MMO has made the grinding to cap level a walk in the park, and still brings in more money than all other MMO combined, seems to contradict that notion that the money is in the grind <.<


How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.

What would some of WoW players do when even certain normal mobs would make them cringe w/e they agroed them (Gobbie growl anyone?) or a normal mob that would make you think twice about fighting it. (Bad breath was a treat). That even the simple grind can turn exciting in a heartbeat. Those days, sad to say are slowly coming to an end, because children these days need to cheat their way through an MMO, how sad is that.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:39pm by Spyrit178


Funny you should mention a stun rotation, since i play a "Rogue" :) and well every class has atleast 1 or 2 forms of CC, so i dont see a problem stunning anything, what i do find funny is how you only mention the most "Casual" friendly expansion in WOW, that being WOTLK, how bout Vanilla or BC wich where hardcore catered, or Cataclysm, where a heroic dungeon takes you 2-3 hours to clear and CC is a MUST ? What about the fact that if you wanted a challenge in wotlk there where Hard mode's wich for example not even 3% of the entire pop downed ULD HM, or ICC HM when they where relevant, seems to me that somebody misses being a unique snowflake lol


The sense of accomplishment is what I missed playing WoW, that died when they released Wrath. It was the very reason why I quit. I am a casual gamer, I did raid in all bc and wrath raids, I did put forth effort of earning a repuation as a good player, can you say the same thing? Seems to me someone is **** bent in being stuck with only Mediocre, I hated being forced to play with players who made no effort in thier skill or thier game, and all they do is sit and whine and get purples they didnt put the effort into, they ruined my gaming experince, I don't consider wiping for 4 hours straight, because of these types of players an enjoyable gaming experince. I was just not getting my moneys worth.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:28pm by Spyrit178


I play wow since vanilla, so your high horse attitude is wasted on me :)

If you dont wanna be stuck with mediocre, then do raid content with a guild, nobody forced anybody to group with anybody, if you want to pugg, you better be prepared for 1 or 2 people who have never either done the content, or dont know their class, if you wanna have a flawless run, then group up with top guilds in your server, i mean you did say you had build a good player reputation right ? how come top guilds were not killing to have such a good player in their guild ?

Also you have this attitude that your purples should be worth more than those of random joe smock, why ? does it affect your gameplay what other people wear ? i dint know that joe smock wearing T10 affected my ability to play the game <.<

You see real hardcore players, dont care what other people do, they log in, clear content, get achivement's and farm the crap out of bosses, is only the semi hardcore wannabe crowd that is worried about being an unique snowflake and how other people having the same gear as them affects their ability to have fun in a game lol

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#67 Jan 03 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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1,910 posts
knarcotic wrote:
I'm with DoctorMog on this one. People say they want a challenge,
but they're actions say they don't. How many people actually play
games without guides--actually explore the world without being told
what to do? I'd say very few. Too many players want to get somewhere
yesterday. Leveling is too much of a time sink; they don't want to
do it. They want challenging mobs and endgame and yet they are too
impatient for that as well; they go into these battles expecting
success on the first try; they read about how the hardcore players
succeeded and ape them; they don't have the patience to fail and try
again to succeed on their own.

There is too much impatience and, in some cases, it can make people
less able to have fun. And no, this isn't meant to absolve SE from
rushing the game; chalk that up to the same impatience that some
players are plagued with. There's enough of it to go around and
does no one any good.

There is a difference between a challenge and a time sink. What is crafting but a time sink? There's nothing involved with crafting at all, other than the discovery of new items--most of which aren't ever crafted. Everything about this game is a time sink now, save for the new NMs--maybe. I'm sticking with it for now, but I'm getting increasingly fed up with the overall lack of challenge (how difficult is it to continually hit Standard Synth, or Heavy Swing?).

Am I impatient? Slightly. I really want this game to get off the ground because there's a lot of potential. I don't need to be rank 50 today, tomorrow or yesterday. I want to be rewarded for skill and commitment, not how many hours I can watch Netflix movies and mash buttons. Don't think for a second that this is a challenging game at the moment. It is nothing but an age old grind sync with an extremely pretty facade.

Edit: Misread.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:58pm by Krycis
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#68 Jan 03 2011 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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I was teasing, Rog.


Anyways, about the OP.

This isn't the MMO mentality I dislike, honestly. It's the fact that all MMOs are reduced simply to a math problem, with only one 'best solution' for pretty much everything. THAT's what leads into elitism, not the fact that it takes thought to accomplish something.

Personally, I want to see an MMO that punishes the "Max DPS" builds. I want to see a game that makes it so relying on 2-3 people (Your tank and your healer and your CC) to do all the brain-work for your group to win a fight means you're going to loose, guaranteed.

Right now MMOs don't force DPS players to fully participate, beyond spamming their max damage. Granted, there are exceptions, but on the whole people aren't forced to adapt on the fly, they're forced to conform to whatever is the 'best' spec for the particular run or gear tiers. That's the biggest turn off for me and MMOs right now, and that's why I'm watching FFXIV so closely as it develops.
#69 Jan 03 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
Hyrist wrote:
I was teasing, Rog.


Anyways, about the OP.

This isn't the MMO mentality I dislike, honestly. It's the fact that all MMOs are reduced simply to a math problem, with only one 'best solution' for pretty much everything. THAT's what leads into elitism, not the fact that it takes thought to accomplish something.

Personally, I want to see an MMO that punishes the "Max DPS" builds. I want to see a game that makes it so relying on 2-3 people (Your tank and your healer and your CC) to do all the brain-work for your group to win a fight means you're going to loose, guaranteed.

Right now MMOs don't force DPS players to fully participate, beyond spamming their max damage. Granted, there are exceptions, but on the whole people aren't forced to adapt on the fly, they're forced to conform to whatever is the 'best' spec for the particular run or gear tiers. That's the biggest turn off for me and MMOs right now, and that's why I'm watching FFXIV so closely as it develops.


I would love to see that, but I couldn't begin to fathom how a game could be designed in such a way to punish the best builds while allowing "less than optimal" (for lack of a better term) builds to thrive.

I would love to see some sort of hybrid where you're free to swing your sword and cast your spells, to tank sometimes and heal others, etc. But I'm not sure how it would work effectively.

Let's say you have three builds for a given class, and let's assume it's a damage dealing class to make our math easier. I'll use FFXI classes to simplify it further so that we all know what we're talking about.

Build A is WAR/SAM, decked out for damage with little utility beyond that.
Build B is WAR/WHM, wearing half damage gear and half MP gear. He deals damage (not as good as Build A) and can also backup heal (but not as good as an actual WHM)
Build C is WAR/RDM, wearing almost entirely MP, INT, MAB gear with a great axe. His melee damage is the worst of the three, he can backup heal and backup nuke (let's pretend for a moment that his nukes would actually not get resisted since his elemental skill is abysmal).

The question is: How do you design content where WAR/WHM and WAR/RDM can thrive, while also leaving a situation where WAR/SAM is at a -disadvantage-? The only way I could see it working is in fights where you would need EVERYONE to stun or where everyone needs to heal somehow (and even then I'd argue that WAR/DNC beats WAR/WHM).

An interesting fight that comes to mind is Thorim from Ulduar. It requires the raid group to split into two parts and for one group to be in the arena while the other part runs a gauntlet. Fights like this might be a good example because hybrid classes can thrive here. When you need to go from only having two healers for 10 people to needing one healer for each group of five (or however you want to split it), hybrid classes can step up and help out.

I guess that's the only way hybrid classes can really thrive is in environments where the fight forces you to change your tactics midfight. Tank and spank is fine and good, but the challenging content is situations where you force a group to work together as a team rather than to just button mash.

Even old Kirin fights used to have a certain amount of this, when you'd have one party kite Kirin while the rest downed the adds, then you all converge on Kirin. Now that you can just melee burn it and no strategy is involved, the best strategy is to deal as much damage as fast as possible. Dynamis Lord is much the same; it's less about teamwork and cooperation and more about stun locking him and killing him as quickly as you can before he kills you.

I'm not saying fights like this aren't fun in their own right, but if that's all there is, it gets boring. That was one point I difinitely need to give to WoW is that at least the fights, albeit easy, were more interesting than FFXI's. Even if the fight itself wasn't terribly difficult (unless you did it on hard mode), at least there was more to them. Of course the downside to this was that there was almost alway one way and only one way to do it. When a fight follows a specific scripting of "When boss does X, you do Y", there aren't really many alternative strategies. There's still "The right way to do it" and "The wrong way to do it" and while the fights may be more fun, they still pigeonholed you into "Do it correctly or fail" most times.

The question is: How do you design fight strategy in such a way where it specifically encourages hybrid builds and discourages "optimal" ones? How do you deign a fight where there are several equally acceptable strategies for it?
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#70 Jan 03 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

The question is: How do you design fight strategy in such a way where it specifically encourages hybrid builds and discourages "optimal" ones? How do you deign a fight where there are several equally acceptable strategies for it?


Easy.

1. Make a game that optimizes for combination attacks, not single player Damage Per Second pools. Making a person who can do a wide variety of team attacks more useful than a person who maximizes a single one.

2. Script fights that demand a wide variety of different kinds of attack combinations, while providing various monster types immune to all but certain certain (and differing) kinds of CC (some which are only accessible to otherwise DPS classes.) Making any one combination ineffectual because of the random AND Varied nature of your targets. Giving players enough survival abilities to off-tank when necessary will be good as well. It'll help cool

Right now FFXIV very much skirts the line of this with various limb breaking and the Battle Regimen system. If they evolve some of the elements in place then the depth of gameplay will skyrocket.
#71 Jan 03 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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322 posts
Spyrit178 wrote:


The sense of accomplishment is what I missed playing WoW, that died when they released Wrath. It was the very reason why I quit. I am a casual gamer, I did raid in all bc and wrath raids, I did put forth effort of earning a repuation as a good player, can you say the same thing? Seems to me someone is **** bent in being stuck with only Mediocre, I hated being forced to play with players who made no effort in thier skill or thier game, and all they do is sit and whine and get purples they didnt put the effort into, they ruined my gaming experince, I don't consider wiping for 4 hours straight, because of these types of players an enjoyable gaming experince. I was just not getting my moneys worth.

The I don't have alot of time type whiners, are the very people that keep wasting what little time I have.


Then you'll be pleased that Cataclysm is like BC in terms of difficulty. It def isn't easy compared to WOTLK. I actually quit halfway through WOTLK because it was too easy and everyone was getting rewarded for nothing. Well, the rewarded for nothing part is still there because of badge gear, but the difficulty of raids and heroics has definitely gone up a notch.
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#72 Jan 03 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
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Firstly, I want to thank you for sharing your knowledge and I appreciate and benefit from your youtube videos, Doctor Mog.

I also am enjoying myself in FFXIV and want this game to succeed. I'm nearly 30, and have played every single FF except 10 and 13, and have enjoyed many SE games across a variety of platforms. I, like you, am also generally more tolerant of flawed video games (my love of Koei strategy/historical simulation games comes to mind).

However, I also recognize that SE made a monumental mistake releasing this game in the manner that they did. That there was no sort function, that they didn't code the bazaars to disallow people putting items in the incorrect locations, that they released one of the worst UIs imaginable for keyboard/mouse (I laughed the minute I attempted to play using a mouse/keyboard, and promptly paid Best Buy a visit and bought a usb gamepad), that the game client had extreme lag issues at release (and still has an unacceptable amount of lag for crafting), and that they released the game with almost no content excepting repeatable grind hubs is completely inexcusable. SE treated their player base like absolute **** and they deserve to suffer for it. More importantly regarding this argument, SE admits their catastrophic blunder. If you had told me in June of this year that FFXIV would be so ****** that they would by the end of the year demote the lead producer and STILL not be charging a subscription fee, I would've mocked you or anyone else off the boards.

Even more baffling is the fact that even now, they're still dithering. It's mindblowing that even after the reorganization, SE still has not made a firm, concrete decision regarding their game. I was expecting them to pull out all the stops with their New Year's announcement, and was completely flummoxed that they simply released a dumbass poll. Talk about a missed opportunity.

Regardless, one CAN enjoy themselves in this game. I enjoy the complex crafting system. I enjoy doing leves and building faction points. I enjoy saving guildmarks. I enjoy behests. But in no conceivable way would I expect a casual gamer outside my generation to enjoy this game. By most objective standards, this game is a pile of **** (and SE admits as much by not charging a subscription fee, which again, would've been unimaginable in June or July of this year). It's simply my love of the FF series and the hope that it will improve in the future that keeps me playing.

See you around, folks.

Talfryn Marshall, Besaid

#73 Jan 03 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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225 posts
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Spyrit178 wrote:
The trouble with FFXIV, is people either expected a FFXI copy or a WoW copy. Not many expected the game to have it's own merits (Even today people want basic classes, rather then experincing a new approach to classes). The concept of ranking out and not up prooved to be difficult for some gamers minds to wrap around.

Granted, SE released FFXIV way too soon, it should still be in beta, which for the most part it is.

The unfortunate result may be alot of core mechanics being dropped, in favor of ease of use. The reality of graphic intensive games, is alot of compromise, either the devs tone down the graphics in favor of either a bigger audience and/or game progression, or leave the graphics have a smaller audience and less game progression. Rift will find itself in the same predictament, catering to the top end video cards will not get you a bigger audience.

Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.

The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.

RPGs are supposed to challenge your thinking, that's the nature of the beast. Unfortunately, both gamers and devs have lost sight of this foundation. And those of us who are old school gamers feel cheated out of our genre, because of ******* cheating and profit. Nothing should be gained without an ounce of effort, it's a very poor game experince to say the least. It is all to clear when you have carried on your back an immense amount of players who had made very little effort into the game.

Being a casual player is not an excuse for being a bad player, as someone who does have a job a child a life, I still manage to put effort into the time I do have. I don't expect to get a free ride, I do expect to be challenged in the games I play, this is the very reason I play the MMO genre in the first place.

There is a question, that every old school gamer should ask themselves, should "casual" gaming being used as a crutch, to ruin my game experince and my expectations of the MMO genere I have been playing for years?

I can honestly say no, I don't enjoy what time I do have to game spent wasted "wiping it up", to these bad players who put no effort into the game.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:55pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 1:58pm by Spyrit178


Old school gamers for some reason, tend to mix time consuming with "Challenge" back in the day, there was nothing challenging in MMO'S, unless you count grinding, camping, and zerging (Tank and spank) bosses a challenge...

Also considering the most profitable MMO has made the grinding to cap level a walk in the park, and still brings in more money than all other MMO combined, seems to contradict that notion that the money is in the grind <.<


How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis? How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation? Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.

I pugged every 25 man in wrath, by the end there were very few who raided ToC, Uld, or Naxx, from beginning to end, even when they outgeared, they brought no raid experince to ICC. I did NOT enjoy spending my time wiping to pure lack of effort. This is not fun, not in the least, it's laziness pure and simple. They couldn't take the time to put some effort into the game, because they are "casuals". Get over it RPG is supposed to be challenging, since the days of it's inception. If you can't put the effort into don't play the genre, players like you have completely ruined my gaming experince.

What would some of WoW players do when even certain normal mobs would make them cringe w/e they agroed them (Gobbie growl anyone?) or a normal mob that would make you think twice about fighting it. (Bad breath was a treat). That even the simple grind can turn exciting in a heartbeat. Those days, sad to say are slowly coming to an end, because children these days need to cheat their way through an MMO, how sad is that.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:39pm by Spyrit178


Funny you should mention a stun rotation, since i play a "Rogue" :) and well every class has atleast 1 or 2 forms of CC, so i dont see a problem stunning anything, what i do find funny is how you only mention the most "Casual" friendly expansion in WOW, that being WOTLK, how bout Vanilla or BC wich where hardcore catered, or Cataclysm, where a heroic dungeon takes you 2-3 hours to clear and CC is a MUST ? What about the fact that if you wanted a challenge in wotlk there where Hard mode's wich for example not even 3% of the entire pop downed ULD HM, or ICC HM when they where relevant, seems to me that somebody misses being a unique snowflake lol


The sense of accomplishment is what I missed playing WoW, that died when they released Wrath. It was the very reason why I quit. I am a casual gamer, I did raid in all bc and wrath raids, I did put forth effort of earning a repuation as a good player, can you say the same thing? Seems to me someone is **** bent in being stuck with only Mediocre, I hated being forced to play with players who made no effort in thier skill or thier game, and all they do is sit and whine and get purples they didnt put the effort into, they ruined my gaming experince, I don't consider wiping for 4 hours straight, because of these types of players an enjoyable gaming experince. I was just not getting my moneys worth.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 3:28pm by Spyrit178


I play wow since vanilla, so your high horse attitude is wasted on me :)

If you dont wanna be stuck with mediocre, then do raid content with a guild, nobody forced anybody to group with anybody, if you want to pugg, you better be prepared for 1 or 2 people who have never either done the content, or dont know their class, if you wanna have a flawless run, then group up with top guilds in your server, i mean you did say you had build a good player reputation right ? how come top guilds were not killing to have such a good player in their guild ?

Also you have this attitude that your purples should be worth more than those of random joe smock, why ? does it affect your gameplay what other people wear ? i dint know that joe smock wearing T10 affected my ability to play the game <.<

You see real hardcore players, dont care what other people do, they log in, clear content, get achivement's and farm the crap out of bosses, is only the semi hardcore wannabe crowd that is worried about being an unique snowflake and how other people having the same gear as them affects their ability to have fun in a game lol



Had Blizz made it so you had to at least raid 1 tier below, before you could get into endgame, that alone would of made the gaming experince better. Blizz made some put in the effort but not others. It was not fair, to have to get time wasted on people who won't bother putting in any effort. If you had a choice would you pick that had high gear score and no raid experinced, as opposed to the person who had extensive raid experince but was had a lower GS. Smart RL would pick experince over gear every time. Why? Because that person put in the effort to gain skill in raiding, and was less likely to waste the raids time. Even hardcore guilds won't take someone with very little to none raid experince, why should 90% of the game community be expected to?

Time sinks are only viewed as wasted time, when that time is not being made the most of. How much effort are you willing to put into it, and why subject people who do put in the effort, get thier time wasted by those that don't.

I've oftened wondered what would of happened if they put in a Maat type fight in wow, how many would of gotten to endgame.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 5:58pm by Spyrit178
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#74 Jan 03 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:

Had Blizz made it so you had to at least raid 1 tier below, before you could get into endgame, that alone would of made the gaming experince better. Blizz made some put in the effort but not others. It was not fair, to have to get time wasted on people who won't bother putting in any effort. If you had a choice would you pick that had high gear score and no raid experinced, as opposed to the person who had extensive raid experince but was had a lower GS. Smart RL would pick experince over gear every time. Why? Because that person put in the effort to gain skill in raiding, and was less likely to waste the raids time. Even hardcore guilds won't take someone with very little to none raid experince, why should 90% of the game community be expected to?

Time sinks are only viewed as wasted time, when that time is not being made the most of. How much effort are you willing to put into it, and why subject people who do put in the effort, get thier time wasted by those that don't.

I've oftened wondered what would of happened if they put in a Maat type fight in wow, how many would of gotten to endgame.


You worry too much about what other people are or aren't doing and you need to learn how to use the forum quote function so I don't have to scroll down a page and a half of well-o-quote in every one of your posts to get to the new stuff.

The GOOD guilds...as in, the ones that don't suck and actually get things done...aka the ones who don't stand for much by way of whiny ******** and excuses...welcome the opportunity for new players to get geared without having to drag them through content. They welcome the opportunity to gear their alts for current content without having to grind previous tiers of raids for weeks/months to get ready. Blizzard knew that some people who measure their e-peen by iLevel would get their nose out of joint over it but the uber-dork "all things must be earned the hard way" mentality went out of style a long time ago. Blizzard made a choice to remove barriers to accessibility because they want to offer a game that is about fun, not grinding.
#75 Jan 03 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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The trouble is I worry about what other people can do is when it effects my ability to have fun. I don't play to carry bad players, that's a waste of my time and the time of other people who do put in the effort. You can't solo a raid stop playing like they do. Maybe if people did consider other players a little more they wouldn't play so poorly.

And if you think for even a second a hardcore endgame guild would welcome any inexperinced raider into their core raiding group you're sadly mistaken. Alot don't even let new players roll on gear, until they have prooved themselves to be a good reliable player.

When people couldn't even down Naxx bosses in t10 gear, that says alot about the system of the game.


Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 7:54pm by Spyrit178

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 8:01pm by Spyrit178
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#76 Jan 03 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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Spyrit178 wrote:
The trouble is I worry about what other people can do is when it effects my ability to have fun. I don't play to carry bad players, that's a waste of my time and the time of other people who do put in the effort. You can't solo a raid stop playing like they do. Maybe if people did consider other players a little more they wouldn't play so poorly.

And if you think for even a second a hardcore endgame guild would welcome any inexperinced raider into their core raiding group you're sadly mistaken. Alot don't even let new players roll on gear, until they have prooved themselves to be a good reliable player.

When people couldn't even down Naxx bosses in t10 gear, that says alot about the system of the game.


It says nothing about the systems of the game and everything of the players. Developers aren't there to play daddy and protect you from all the baddies. Sounds to me like you put too much stock in PUGs. I raided with high end guilds, and while raiding experience was preferred, if you could demonstrate the right attitude and fill out an application like a reasonable human being there was a pretty good chance you'd at least get a trial. And because I was with guilds populated by people with a clue they could evaluate your performance in a raid based on what you did and not what you were wearing or what other raids you had cleared before.

Again with the narrow minded, "forget about the benefits; I can't look after myself and I'm tired of running with baddies so make it so the baddies can't be cool like me by gating content unnecessarily." Protip: I'd take someone with crap gear and a decent attitude over someone like you who looks to everyone else to preserve your e-peen and protect you from the scrubs. When you're as good as you seem to think you are, you can afford to carry people because you don't need a full group to get things done in most encounters. And if you're trying hard modes with PUGs, you're foolish. That's all there is to it. Gating content doesn't solve anything. It doesn't improve anything. It doesn't enhance the experience for anyone.
#77 Jan 03 2011 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good
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@ Spyrit

They had that progression model from vanilla till TBC, and only 2% or less of the population got to see end content, everybody else was stuck doing karazhan and magtheridon and that troll raid, why should the 98% of the population pay the bills for the other 2% to enjoy high end content ?

You know what's truly nice also ? There are different mode's, if you wanna be the hardcore player, there are hardmode's, if you wanna be a scrub and faceroll content that poses a mild or somethings a lot of challenge to the mass, there is normal mode, if you wanna roll with a small group there is 10 players, if you wanna go with tons of friends there is 25, you pick and chose, there is not constraint on what you can or cant do :) Options are good :)
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#78 Jan 03 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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Spyrit, they have a kick function for a reason.

And fyi, there were TONS of people at 75 (and everywhere below, for that matter) in FFXI that had no clue what they were doing.
#79 Jan 03 2011 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
Now i want you to stop thinking with your heart and log into FFXIV. What do you see? A plotless MMORPG? A questles MMORPG? Almost ZERO interaction with citizens in your cities? Soloing gameplay restricted to grinding mobs? Grouping experience as good as soloing? Crafts that require you to stay the whole day farming stuff for different crafts you don't like so you can do what you want?

Take a look at the bland maps. How good is the game music? When i remember of Final Fantasy Online South Gustaber music comes up ins a split of a second. Sandoria city music comes right after. I can remember FFXI FIRST trailer showing a guy soloing a mob and dying and a message saying "why play alone".

We all spent not only money on FFXIV but hopes of something better than 11 and everything else in the MMORPG market. But stop looking at the game as it was your born child. Stop looking at Square Enix as the company that did Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy 3/7. That company doesn't exist anymore. Their visions about games changed through the years.

To the worse. You know it. You don't want to accept but look whats inside FFXIV? Copied races from FFXI, a world filled with bland areas, there are no enemies to be hated. You dont fight Goblins, Yagudo and Orcs and their lack of mercy. You fight defensless squirrels, funny coblyns, elementals that were scary as they had no specific form in FFXI and now look like disney fairies.

And the battle system? Take all that from those kind feelings you have for Final Fantasy series and see what is FFXIV. See what SE gave you. They spit on you with that game. I understand anyone's feeling defending the game till their server shut down or the game totally becomes another Everquest 2 (full of empty areas without players life).

I stopped worshiping game companies since SEGA destroyed the Saturn and the Dreamcast because they didnt want to invest on their consoles, they just wanted the top technology specs.

I am also someone who had his first cideogame an Atari 2600. God, I can take Pitfall, Pacman, Enduro and River Raid nowadays and have fun though as limited as those games are. Why i'm striving to like Final Fantasy 14 if it was like i owned Square Enix a favor?

You don't have to. You don't have to be loyal to a company that releases such an incomplete game and i'm saying that in terms of MMORPG. Someone said about Everquest Online Adventures. That game was my first online MMORPG and to me still is one of the best i ever played. It was tough, it was a grind fest but the world had a meaning. The world was cruel, You got lost traveling during night you should find a safe place to stay or have a torch and walk slowly or you will die.

Fighting squirrels, Dormouses, cute bogys (Jesus, Bogy were such creepy in FFXI!) in a choboless world. What Tanaka and his friends were thinking??? They disrespected everyone with such pathethic lanch thinking that would be enough for the likes of us. Till gamespot decided to show them the true colors of their crap.

#80 Jan 03 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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The kick the raid leader function has gone completely missing. I would only run as a pug on my main on guild runs, my alts on the other hand didn't have that choice, I had 2 alts which I raided with, both dps, getting saved to bad raids was a constant.

Honestly they should of made it impossible to get to one tier of content unless you have cleared the previous. Raid progression is not something you should be just thrown into without any experince in it. There is more than 1 person's time to consider, the amount of time spent getting a raid togather, the amount of time going through the raid, is time wasted because of inexperience. Spending 4-6 hours of pure frustration is not fun, simply because people want to use being casual as a copout.
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#81 Jan 03 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
I wander these forums from time to time waiting sor news about the game having quests like ff11 even if reawards arent that good. Im coming here expecting to see that chocobos were released. I still have my guy there sitting at quartz doblyns when i decided to give up.

But i dont see any good news. Any word of whats coming up. But theres nothing. I think what happened to FFXIV was very good in terms of showing future MMORPG companies that they wont get away with bad games despite their name. Be it Bioware, Square or even Blizzard.
#82 Jan 03 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
The kick the raid leader function has gone completely missing. I would only run as a pug on my main on guild runs, my alts on the other hand didn't have that choice, I had 2 alts which I raided with, both dps, getting saved to bad raids was a constant.

Honestly they should of made it impossible to get to one tier of content unless you have cleared the previous. Raid progression is not something you should be just thrown into without any experince in it. There is more than 1 person's time to consider, the amount of time spent getting a raid togather, the amount of time going through the raid, is time wasted because of inexperience. Spending 4-6 hours of pure frustration is not fun, simply because people want to use being casual as a copout.


You don't know what you're talking about. Maybe MMO developers should just not let people like you play, right? I mean you, with your hair-brained schemes over how to fix your problems with baddies, are part of the problem and it's okay to suggest a developer gate content to protect you from them. So if it's okay to exclude them, it should be okay to exclude you.

If you want smooth, clean runs, you don't PUG raids. Period. You can cry all day long about what should be and what could be and it's everyone else's fault and blah blah blah but at the end of the day, if you're counting on PUGs, you take what you get and you like it, or you stop doing it. That's it. Complicate it all you want with lame ideas about what will solve your problems at the expense of everyone else. You have options to alter your experience in the game and for whatever reason you aren't availing yourself of those options. That doesn't make it the developer's fault for not gating content.
#83 Jan 03 2011 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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Hold on, not only do you PUG hard content, but you also let the bad PUG players be the raid leaders? And you don't leave or call a vote kick (they have those now)?

It sounds to me like you're trying to come up with as many excuses possible to distance yourself from the casual plebs with your glorious master professional raider race.
#84 Jan 03 2011 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I have left raids, but it does nothing to remove the bad raids you are saved to. When someone is calling out for a raid you don't know exactly what you are getting yourself into. The simple fact my second alt I stopped raiding because it was just that bad, so tell me where is the fun in that? Can't play because of bad players. I'm sorry there's just no getting around a bad system, too easy has no place in MMOs. You are the ones making excuses for it.

I knew and raided with many casual players who could raid, being casual isn't a copout for playing poorly and not wanting to put forth any effort.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 9:07pm by Spyrit178
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#85 Jan 03 2011 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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No, you're making excuses for your moronic elitist "I don't carry bads" attitude. WOW is like the only game that even offers the option of PUG hard content/raids. Instead of getting a guild or static group, like you would in virtually every other MMO, you go throw yourself into the PUG scene and then complain that "scrubs" are "ruining your gaming experience".

As far as the rest of us with more objective views are concerned, YOU are the scrub for not taking the necessary precautions to ensure that you had a good raid. You sound like the kind of guy who joins a group, doesn't say a **** thing to assess the capabilities of group until someone screws up; usually followed by a ragequit or "lol scrubs" comment. Your suggestions for "fixing" games and removing scrubs are asinine at best.

You know what all your failed raids had in common? YOU.
#86 Jan 03 2011 at 8:24 PM Rating: Decent
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You are absolutely wrong. First I belonged to a 10 man strict guild. With a limited amount of members. Next I would be one of those people to be one of the LAST people to leave the raid. To get any raid prgress on my alts I had to pug, I also had to pug 25 man for 25 man progress.

Now you are making excuses for people who want it all, but don't want to do any work for it. There was a guildie of mine who had a wife and kid full time job. He was at the chracter cap, had 8 toons on our server 7 of which was raid ready, each of which he played well. Now this whole but I'm a casual player is a copout for bad players who don't want to earn what they got. These are the type of players that waste my time. I don't care if a player has more greens than a golf course, if they can do their role and survive the raid, they are more of a raider than any carried, overgeared, ignorant players.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 9:29pm by Spyrit178
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#87 Jan 03 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Spyrit178 wrote:
I have left raids, but it does nothing to remove the bad raids you are saved to. When someone is calling out for a raid you don't know exactly what you are getting yourself into. The simple fact my second alt I stopped raiding because it was just that bad, so tell me where is the fun in that? Can't play because of bad players. I'm sorry there's just no getting around a bad system, too easy has no place in MMOs. You are the ones making excuses for it.

I knew and raided with many casual players who could raid, being casual isn't a copout for playing poorly and not wanting to put forth any effort.


Well, for starters, there's always this thing called the Armory that would allow you to see how many times the person putting together the raid has downed the bosses you're intending to go and fight. You can click on their name in chat to see what guild they're in and whether or not it's a reputable guild on your realm. There are ways to check out a potential raid leader even before you tell them you're interested in joining. They're not 100% effective but they're usually a good start.

I knew an awful lot of people in WoW who were just the nicest people you would ever meet and they were just terrible at the game. There's no reason to block them from the content because they weren't playing at my level. I chose not to run with them after a period of time because I didn't have fun with them, but you didn't see me running around crying about how they shouldn't be allowed to be in the content and blah blah blah.

You whine too much and you refuse to solve your own problems. People like you wouldn't last in the guilds I raided with. You'd be out on your *** for being a crybaby. And we had many a mirthful conversation about mediocre players thinking they were something they weren't and looking down their nose at all the baddies when we could have been looking down our nose at them but when you really are a decent raider, you don't need to look down your nose at anyone or cry about what they get to do that only you should be able to do because you're some kind of awesomesauce and they're not.

And maybe it's lucky for you that at least up to this point, SE is all about the gating. Of course, none of the gates in FFXIV require any substantial amount of skill to overcome...just an inordinate amount of time. So if gating is your thing, you're in the right place for now. Not exactly the same kind of criteria as you but hey...at least you've got a few months before it becomes something for you to cry about.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 7:08pm by Aurelius
#88 Jan 03 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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You completely miss my point, the people I am refering too are the people who don't want to make any effort into the game, and cry "casual" player, expect people to carry them through content they never last more than 1 minute in.

I wouldnt join any guild like that. I join RAIDING GUILDS, meaning I expect these guilds to be competent at raiding, not a bunch of lazy gamers, who only show up for farm mode, put little effort into progression and expect everything handed to them. Those are carried players, they don't take 2 minutes to learn their class, learn the raid, listen to raid leaders and carry out instructions. WoW is not hard, provided people are willing to put just a little effort into it.

If I wanted to join a social guild that raided once in a blue moon I'd join one, if I join a raiding guild I expect it to be filled with raiders. Now when someone is pugging is for hard modes, I do check their raid resume, but that resume doesn't tell me whether or not they were carried through those raids, know the raids well, and don't die in a fire. Those are the players that get repeatedly punted for being bad at raiding.

Trouble is if people had to put some sort of effort into the game to progress, it wouldn't of turned out as bad as it did. People completely missed out on alot of content, just to get epics, then they try and raid and expect to be carried. That's what makes MMOs mediocre.

Do you honestly think completely skipping over raid content, makes for a decent raider?

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 10:38pm by Spyrit178
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#89 Jan 03 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Good
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Spyrit178 wrote:
You completely miss my point, the people I am refering too are the people who don't want to make any effort into the game, and cry "casual" player, expect people to carry them through content they never last more than 1 minute in..


That's exactly like my friends who were great people and ****** players. They'd spend hours and hours oo-ing and ah-ing to one another reading each other stats from raid/badge gear but they wouldn't spend 5 minutes reading up about their class or stat priorities or rotations or anything of the sort and you know what? People like that aren't beholden to you or your standards. When you join a PUG, you take a risk. If you are not willing to take that risk, do not join PUGs for raiding. Period. It's not a negotiation. That's how it works.

Quote:
I wouldnt join any guild like that. I join RAIDING GUILDS, meaning I expect these guilds to be competent at raiding, not a bunch of lazy gamers, who only show up for farm mode, put little effort into progression and expect everything handed to them. Those are carried players, they don't take 2 minutes to learn their class, learn the raid, listen to raid leaders and carry out instructions. WoW is not hard, provided people are willing to put just a little effort into it.


I'm guessing that if I were to see the armory of your main character, I would find your WotLK progression to be nothing short of mediocre. But you talk all big and bad like there's this enormous discrepancy between you and the people you'd have shut out of the content because they don't meet your standards. I'll tell you what...if you're so **** hot, how come you're not a standard fill-in for better groups with your alts? How is it that someone of your impeccable qualifications hasn't been flagged as a go-to guy for a bigger guild than the one you call home for their 25-man squad? I knew tons of people like that. See, some people just shut the **** up and perform and they'll get invited back whether they're in the guild or not. Some people strut around and pretend to be something they're not and they get about what they deserve.

It's your call, man. It's your experience in the game. Make of it what you want, but just keep in mind that nobody who matters has much sympathy for people who run around whining about baddies and scrubs.
#90 Jan 03 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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You are just making excuses for skipping raid content plain and simple. Skipping raid content completely is a bad system. Not even so much with getting familar on how raid mechanics work, nothing in the game but raiding teaches that. They don't have to make it uberly hard, but it shouldn't have been taken to the other extreme, and allow players to completely miss content.

Wasn't very fair to the people that had to endure that content, for progression sake. They could of just as easily nerfed the content, rather than completely skipping it.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 10:45pm by Spyrit178
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#91 Jan 03 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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#92 Jan 03 2011 at 9:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
You are just making excuses for skipping raid content plain and simple. Skipping raid content completely is a bad system. Not even so much with getting familar on how raid mechanics work, nothing in the game but raiding teaches that. They don't have to make it uberly hard, but it shouldn't have been taken to the other extreme, and allow players to completely miss content.

Wasn't very fair to the people that had to endure that content, for progression sake. They could of just as easily nerfed the content, rather than completely skipping it.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 10:45pm by Spyrit178


Here's why this will likely never happen again, and is a crappy idea.

(I'll use the wotlk timeline for this example)

there's a guy in your guild, who a naxx pro, who takes a short break, ends up missing ulduar. He comes back and wants to raid again. But hes not attuned (or however your system would work), so worst case scenario, he doesn't get to play with you guys anymore. Best case the guild runs him through it to ungate the further content, which would completely negate the entire premise of "forcing" people to learn it.

I get what you're saying, it sucks carrying people. You're method of dealing with it hurts so many more legit players, just so you don't have to deal with crappy pugs outside you're own circle.

what you're saying is you only want to play with people who have passed a test that you've designed. Oh but its not just that, you don't want anyone to be able to do what you are doing, even without you.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 11:01pm by KujaKoF
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#93 Jan 03 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
You are just making excuses for skipping raid content plain and simple. Skipping raid content completely is a bad system. Not even so much with getting familar on how raid mechanics work, nothing in the game but raiding teaches that. They don't have to make it uberly hard, but it shouldn't have been taken to the other extreme, and allow players to completely miss content.

Wasn't very fair to the people that had to endure that content, for progression sake. They could of just as easily nerfed the content, rather than completely skipping it.


Doesn't matter if you learn raid mechanics in ICC or Onyxia's Lair. It really doesn't. There's not steady escalation of challenge from one raid to the next. Believe what you want to believe. Gating content doesn't solve the problems you're so concerned about and you have no proof that it does. You have only theories. But again, if you're looking for a company to share your views on how ruining a game is a great way to make people feel special, you're in the right place.
#94 Jan 03 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
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5 man heroics =/= raiding, and yes the playerbase as a whole would of been better at raiding if they actually raided a tier prior to endgame. Uld was a fantastically deisgned raid, it demonstrated many variations of raid mechanics, in which a raider could use as a basis of comparison, many players completely missed one of WoWs best raids, that's a shame. What is the purpose of designing contant many players will miss seeing shortly after it comes out?More people raided BT and Sunwell during wrath, then they did ULD (Content that was current was completely unseen)
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#95 Jan 03 2011 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
5 man heroics =/= raiding, and yes the playerbase as a whole would of been better at raiding if they actually raided a tier prior to endgame. Uld was a fantastically deisgned raid, it demonstrated many variations of raid mechanics, in which a raider could use as a basis of comparison, many players completely missed one of WoWs best raids, that's a shame. What is the purpose of designing contant many players will miss seeing shortly after it comes out?More people raided BT and Sunwell during wrath, then they did ULD (Content that was current was completely unseen)


I don't know that I see anyone here talking about 5-mans so I'm not sure what that comment was about, but whatever.

Hey...hey hey hey...

Hey...guess what?

Get over it.
#96 Jan 03 2011 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Seriously if you dont wanna run into scrubs/bad players, then just dont PUG, Puging is not mandatory, is an option, it's a nice option to have, is it the best means to get geared ? Probably Not! But the option is there :)

Besides gating content is a bad practice for a company, why would 90% of the player base pay the bill for the top 10% ?

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#97 Jan 04 2011 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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Wow. This is possibly the most stimulating thread on here in weeks.

Though about 55% of the way down the page someone bad mouthed WoW (I don't know who, I must have skimmed over it as unimportant) and then the rampant WoW defenders came leaping to its defense for the 10,000th time this year (and it's only day 4!). Honestly, guys, can't you just let one or two "wow sux" comments go? Some people think it sucks. I know 12 million don't (you tell us every time) but some people do. It' just the way life works.

Anyway............................ (cue WoW defenders telling me I'm wrong or insulting my intelligence) <- wrote that hoping to reverse psychology them into not doing it but I know they will. :D

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Seriously, though, there's a lot of good conversation about the way things are.

I also hail from "the good old days." I remember when I only got 2-3 games a year so I had to choose and choose wisely. I probably played FF1, 2(IV), 3(VI), Chrono Trigger, Super Metroid - must have played those games like 1000 times on the summers I got them. ****, FF1 was so hard for me when I was that young I had to beat it well after IV came out.

I agree with Kachi but I don't feel like I see through rose-colored glasses. Maybe I just don't understand that phrase, but I do agree that the problem with "games" today is that the expectations of consumers has changed due to the availability of games. It's true that they were once rare. It made them much more precious. You really got your money's worth and with only a few games that were absolutely gold (to you) it was easy to determine A+ games.

Nowadays we're literally spammed with games. 5-20 games come out a week on each system. Most of them quite terrible, I'm sure. There's just so many video games to wade through and I know there are some A+ games that come out but I don't even have time for them all. I have to pick from games I know I'll like and others get left to the wayside. Maybe I'll get them when they're marked down or maybe they'll just vanish into the sunset forever.

It makes for a much more competitive playing field when vying for my attention. Square Enix has now squandered all of my "customer loyalty." XIII was really the last straw. I was already resigned to play XIV long before XIII came out. I was actually in a hurry for XIII to come out already so they could justify naming/releasing a XIV. Well, we all know XIII (love it or hate it... if that's really an option) and now I like XIV but the state it was released in was unbearable. If I get XV (which I probably will, assuming SE turns sh-t around) it's going to be based on reviews of my friends, not sell out magazines.

I also mentioned in another thread that I think the argument "it isn't fair to compare XIV to XI as it is now" and to "compare XI at release is more fair" is partially inaccurate. I do agree it is "unfair" but the world is cruel and unfair. I think the future of MMO will continue like this for a long time - where games come out looking cool and flashy but within a month or so sputter and die out because they can't compete with what came before. Graphics aren't improving much anymore. I mean, PS3 > PS2 (obviously) but in terms of graphics FF10,11,12 don't really seem "all that bad" compared to 13,14. Compare 10 to 7. Compare 7 to 5. Graphics have jumped leaps and bounds but now they're just getting more ... HD. So I can count the hairs on Lightning's head if I want, but it doesn't really add that much more to the game (graphics).

I feel like XI and WoW were a huge leap forward in graphics and gameplay for MMO (as well as Lineage & Star Wars) compared to EQ and Ultima. They brought more to the table in looks and immersion. People felt closer to their characters and their world. Games that have come out Post-WoW have only been emulating what came before and without any serious JUMP in graphics. Nothing to catch you off guard.

I'm not even trying to suggest this is all about graphics, though I am proposing what drew people from the "olde" MMO to the "newer" was upgraded graphics and engines running the game.

XIV tries to be a "next gen" MMO but all it is is XI with flashier graphics, much, much crappier UI and some modified gameplay (for better or worse - I think better, but I'm often the minority). It doesn't have enough going for it to "hook" people into a whole new game; to dedicate 5-8 years of their life to.

It's too easy to compare it to XI or WoW and come to the conclusion that "for what it is" at launch it's just not good enough. Is that fair? No, not really, but it's just the way of it. MMO Launches are going to have to be much more impressive or have astounding new graphics or gameplay in order to ... reign in a new generation. I feel kind of dumb I didn't see it coming after so many promising (looking) MMO sputtered out.

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Edit: I meant to say XIII (and changed it where I accidentelly said XII) was the last straw so I don't get rampant XII defenders jumping my case. But in case you are a rampant XII defender and in need of a good derailing argument for no reason, I do hate XII, too. It was the straw before the last straw which (again) I meant to say is XIII.


Edited, Jan 4th 2011 9:33am by Kirutaru
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Battle Mage Kiru
#98Spyrit178, Posted: Jan 04 2011 at 10:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes I could just grind 5 man heroics until my eyes bleed and wait for endgame raiding and get everything handed to me like most players do. How fun. Pug or not level up once again a joy. I like raiding for the team play and the different mechanics, but blizz changed priorities to ZOMG I WANTZ MOAR EPICS, GIMME DEM NAO!, and completely threw out any legimate means to earn them. You dont need 16 hours a day 7 days a week to get them not in vannilla and certainly not in BC. If you want raid gear you should have to go through the raid progression to aquire them, like some people do.
#99 Jan 04 2011 at 10:31 AM Rating: Default
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No matter how you guys look at it, ALL OF YOU, its the same **** thing

all these games are essentialy the same

yes you grind in wow, sure you dont do it the same, but a grind, is a grind, is a grind. you can disguise a grind all you want, but guess what, its still a grind.

and you just can not compare games out for 5+ years to games not even out 5 months, theres no comparison for any of them. so stop trying.

And to those who are preaching wow, seriously, if you guys arent even playing ffxiv anymore go away. go play your wow. from what i can tell you dont even play here anymore cuz your so in love with wow and its mechanics.....some of us here are enjoying 14, and trying to have a decent conversation about it, and all we do is get attacked by you guys spouting off about how great wow is compared to everything else and what it has that we dont
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#100 Jan 04 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Everything Kirutaru said (aside from disliking 12; I liked 12) I 100% agree with.

Most poignantly:

Kirutaru wrote:
XIV tries to be a "next gen" MMO but all it is is XI with flashier graphics, much, much crappier UI and some modified gameplay (for better or worse - I think better, but I'm often the minority). It doesn't have enough going for it to "hook" people into a whole new game; to dedicate 5-8 years of their life to.


I've said before that my biggest gripe with gamers lately is that they look at flashy graphics and cutscenes first and look at gameplay and content second. Even if the food tastes like **** and is laden with E. coli, so long as it LOOKS GOOD, it will fly off the shelves.

FF13 and FF14 are just proof that SE is content to sell a product that LOOKS GOOD... and that's about it.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
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#101 Jan 04 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Decent
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SE released the game too early, devs weren't ready for stockholders demands. The trouble with flash is it doesn't hold players for long, catering to the top end hardware is not going to yield you much of a customer base. AOC graphics nerfed, FFXIV yep I forsee that one incoming, Rift another one that is going to eat it on the flash. There is only so much flash you can have before other things get compromised, player base being one of them, as well as mechanics, game play, storyline. Most players can't afford top end.
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