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#102 Jan 04 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Vedis wrote:
No matter how you guys look at it, ALL OF YOU, its the same **** thing

all these games are essentialy the same

yes you grind in wow, sure you dont do it the same, but a grind, is a grind, is a grind. you can disguise a grind all you want, but guess what, its still a grind.

and you just can not compare games out for 5+ years to games not even out 5 months, theres no comparison for any of them. so stop trying.

And to those who are preaching wow, seriously, if you guys arent even playing ffxiv anymore go away. go play your wow. from what i can tell you dont even play here anymore cuz your so in love with wow and its mechanics.....some of us here are enjoying 14, and trying to have a decent conversation about it, and all we do is get attacked by you guys spouting off about how great wow is compared to everything else and what it has that we dont



Its true about the grind, you pick the grind you want with mmos. Some people like short objectives (quests), some people love dungeons (instances), and some people love standing in a circle killing the same thing over and over again. Just not enough to support a pay to play game it seems.
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#104 Jan 04 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
I think some of the reason for the shift is the cost of the games. I may be wrong on that. I don't remember the games when I was a kid being cheap, but they didn't seem quite as much of a stretch as now. Also, I think the simple addition of MMO's, versus non-online games from when many of us were kids, changed things. A regular RPG game is something you intend to beat. Period. An MMO is something you plan to enjoy for hopefully years. So, it's a different mindset you automatically bring to the game. Plus, an MMO is something that can be changed after you buy it. That's not true of regular games.

I definitely agree that the standards some people have are excessive and just ridiculous. It is funny to see that video made about WoW. I saw the same mentality from some people while in FFXI. It was the end-game gotta-beat-everyone-else-to-the-cool-gear mentality that I hoped would be absent, at least in the beginning, of FFXIV.

While there are obviously legitimate concerns about the way FFXIV began, the OP is right. The diversity of the audience makes it impossible to please all of us. That's common sense. The problem is that people don't seem to be dropping games they're disappointed in as the OP suggested. I actually wish that were true. Instead, they're whining on forums about trivial things, making it difficult for legitimate concerns to be heard over the noise. I'm glad that these boards have at least mostly calmed down now to more legitimate discussions versus what they were a couple of months ago.
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#105 Jan 04 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
FF13 and FF14 are just proof that SE is content to sell a product that LOOKS GOOD... and that's about it.
I disagree here, 13 had it's finer points, the battle system was good if you rearranged the menu so that auto battle was no longer the first option constantly tempting you to button mash for easy mode. The maps left A LOT to be desired though. Having played that game in it's entirety, I can say it wasn't as bad as people make it sound.

I think the same can be said about 14 the battle system is great, leves and behests (especially r40s) can be a ton of fun. There are some solid core gameplay mechanics that need some tweeks. at the risk of sounding elitist, rank 15 is not enough to make an overarching comment about gameplay mechanics sir, as you simply have not experienced enough of them to form an well-informed opinion.


Edited, Jan 4th 2011 1:28pm by Jefro420
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#106 Jan 04 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
FF13 and FF14 are just proof that SE is content to sell a product that LOOKS GOOD... and that's about it.
I disagree here, 13 had it's finer points, the battle system was good if you rearranged the menu so that auto battle was no longer the first option constantly tempting you to button mash for easy mode. The maps left A LOT to be desired though. Having played that game in it's entirety, I can say it wasn't as bad as people make it sound.

I think the same can be said about 14 the battle system is great, leves and behests (especially r40s) can be a ton of fun. There are some solid core gameplay mechanics that need some tweeks. at the risk of sounding elitist, rank 15 is not enough to make an overarching comment about gameplay mechanics sir, as you simply have not experienced enough of them to form an well-informed opinion.


Edited, Jan 4th 2011 1:28pm by Jefro420


Two problems that you have brought up:

In terms of FF13, most people who got past the first 15-20 hours of tunnel echo the same thing: "Eventually, it gets better".

In terms of FF14, you just said that you don't think I've gotten far enough to form a well-informed opinion; that the rank 40 content is fun.

Even in terms of FF11, the first part of the game is rather slow and most of the meat and potatoes of what the game is about doesn't pick up until 30-50 or later. Even I have criticized reviewers for only playing FF11 till level 10-15 and writing it off as empty and bland.

That's the whole problem right there: Most people don't want to have to slog through boring content to get to the fun content. The game should be fun right out of the box. A good MMORPG is one that you are enjoying beginning with the VERY FIRST KILL, not later. If I can't make an accurate comment on how fun the game is by level 15 because I "have not experienced enough" then I counter by saying that the game needs to give me something WORTH experiencing prior to level 15.

Because like I pointed out earlier: Many people decide whether or not they're going to like an MMORPG in the first hour. Most decide in the first 15 minutes. Not AFTER the first 15 levels.

Maybe back in 2004 when I played FFXI, I was willing to slog through the boring part to get to the good part. I'm not willing to do so any more. For $75 and an eventual monthly fee, I want to pay to have fun NOW, not pay to maybe have fun eventually.

The days of games that start out slow and pick up speed are numbered, because with all the other game options out there, if a game doesn't draw you in -immediately-, the vast majority of players will put it down and move on to a game that will.

So the question is: What do you want to do to fix FFXIV in such a way that it will convince a brand new player, within 30 minutes or less, that this is a game worth playing? I don't want to hear about the linkshells they should join, or the fun they can have when they're a higher level; the game needs to have SOMETHING that a brand new player can do right out of the box that will keep them logging on, and more importantly: keep them WANTING to log on.

Because if there's nothing to make people want to log on other than "If I level up, it might get better", most people won't. That's exactly why I'm only level 15; there's nothing in FFXIV right now for me at my level that makes me WANT to log on. The only reasons I log on are for the glorified chat room with my LS, and the thought that I might maybe have more fun at a higher level. And that really isn't enough to convince most people to play the game. That's why so few people are playing it.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 1:43pm by Mikhalia
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#107 Jan 04 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
It might have been horrible for you, but millions of people did it. I can't say looking back that it wasn't an enjoyable experience. Sure, it was a lot of time I wasted, but it was fun overall and I don't for a minute regret playing those games.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:47am by DoctorMog


Where do you get millions from? Last I checked, neither EQ NOR FFXI ever reached even a single million much less multiple.

Secondly, I understand what you're trying to say, but you are essentially looking down upon people that didn't like something and chose not to stick with it. If your game has to labeled as an "aquired taste" then it's not really that much of a success. If you're having to force yourself to continue to play it in hopes of finding that gem (or that they'll someday fix the problems) then you aren't someone I'd ever want to ask for entertainment options.
#108 Jan 04 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

So the question is: What do you want to do to fix FFXIV in such a way that it will convince a brand new player, within 30 minutes or less, that this is a game worth playing? I don't want to hear about the linkshells they should join, or the fun they can have when they're a higher level; the game needs to have SOMETHING that a brand new player can do right out of the box that will keep them logging on, and more importantly: keep them WANTING to log on.


Sorry to say..but I think this may depend on how many clicked "Yes" on the last question of the survey. Will SE be willing to lose some current players who like the current state of the game and create a "new" game to tempt those left and attract those who who never played based on the wave of poor reviews.
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#109 Jan 04 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
It might have been horrible for you, but millions of people did it. I can't say looking back that it wasn't an enjoyable experience. Sure, it was a lot of time I wasted, but it was fun overall and I don't for a minute regret playing those games.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:47am by DoctorMog


Where do you get millions from? Last I checked, neither EQ NOR FFXI ever reached even a single million much less multiple.

Secondly, I understand what you're trying to say, but you are essentially looking down upon people that didn't like something and chose not to stick with it. If your game has to labeled as an "aquired taste" then it's not really that much of a success. If you're having to force yourself to continue to play it in hopes of finding that gem (or that they'll someday fix the problems) then you aren't someone I'd ever want to ask for entertainment options.


Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed FFXI, and even after I swore I was done with it, I ended up creating a brand new character and I'm having fun with it.

But I have to admit that a lot of the fun I'm currently having in XI is bolstered by past knowledge; knowing where to go to get subjob items, knowing when to get new gear and what gear to get and where to buy it etc...

If I didn't have all of the XI knowledge I had and I picked up XI as a brand new game right now, I'd probably have quit already.

The trip can be fun when you recognize the landmarks or when it's new and exciting, but after a while you don't want to chase the carrot any more unless you KNOW the carrot tastes good.
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#110 Jan 04 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Simool wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

So the question is: What do you want to do to fix FFXIV in such a way that it will convince a brand new player, within 30 minutes or less, that this is a game worth playing? I don't want to hear about the linkshells they should join, or the fun they can have when they're a higher level; the game needs to have SOMETHING that a brand new player can do right out of the box that will keep them logging on, and more importantly: keep them WANTING to log on.


Sorry to say..but I think this may depend on how many clicked "Yes" on the last question of the survey. Will SE be willing to lose some current players who like the current state of the game and create a "new" game to tempt those left and attract those who who never played based on the wave of poor reviews.


Depending on what they do, I don't think that making the early levels more fun and making playing the game more enticing will hurt people at later levels. It depends on how drastic the changes are.
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#111 Jan 04 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
In terms of FF13, most people who got past the first 15-20 hours of tunnel echo the same thing: "Eventually, it gets better".


Ironically, we both don't like the game for the same reason but whereas I believe you stopped playing it I forced myself to slog through it as I did pay the retail price and I was at least going to do everything before returning it for trade-in. (go go achievements?)

People that stated it "got better" and "opened up" are full of ****. Seriously. ONE area in the game hands you 64 kill quests for "post game content" isn't opening up, especially considering that one zone just branches off into other zones that are the same linear progression as the rest of the game. It started linear and it ended linear. The Archylette Steppe being this massive zone only gave off the illusion of "freedom" and a lot of people stupidly bought into that hype hook, line, and sinker.

****, for me, the only worthwhile part of the game was seeing Snow with his coat off.

(I also find it weird that FFXIV has more man-eye candy than the females, in terms of character creation.)
#112 Jan 04 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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The biggest thing I enjoy about FFXIV, my rough and tough, hide under the bed from his mother, Gladiator npc. He is hysterical.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 2:44pm by Spyrit178
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#113 Jan 04 2011 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Two problems that you have brought up:

In terms of FF13, most people who got past the first 15-20 hours of tunnel echo the same thing: "Eventually, it gets better".

In terms of FF14, you just said that you don't think I've gotten far enough to form a well-informed opinion; that the rank 40 content is fun.

Even in terms of FF11, the first part of the game is rather slow and most of the meat and potatoes of what the game is about doesn't pick up until 30-50 or later. Even I have criticized reviewers for only playing FF11 till level 10-15 and writing it off as empty and bland.

That's the whole problem right there: Most people don't want to have to slog through boring content to get to the fun content. The game should be fun right out of the box. A good MMORPG is one that you are enjoying beginning with the VERY FIRST KILL, not later. If I can't make an accurate comment on how fun the game is by level 15 because I "have not experienced enough" then I counter by saying that the game needs to give me something WORTH experiencing prior to level 15.

Because like I pointed out earlier: Many people decide whether or not they're going to like an MMORPG in the first hour. Most decide in the first 15 minutes. Not AFTER the first 15 levels.

Maybe back in 2004 when I played FFXI, I was willing to slog through the boring part to get to the good part. I'm not willing to do so any more. For $75 and an eventual monthly fee, I want to pay to have fun NOW, not pay to maybe have fun eventually.

The days of games that start out slow and pick up speed are numbered, because with all the other game options out there, if a game doesn't draw you in -immediately-, the vast majority of players will put it down and move on to a game that will.

So the question is: What do you want to do to fix FFXIV in such a way that it will convince a brand new player, within 30 minutes or less, that this is a game worth playing? I don't want to hear about the linkshells they should join, or the fun they can have when they're a higher level; the game needs to have SOMETHING that a brand new player can do right out of the box that will keep them logging on, and more importantly: keep them WANTING to log on.

Because if there's nothing to make people want to log on other than "If I level up, it might get better", most people won't. That's exactly why I'm only level 15; there's nothing in FFXIV right now for me at my level that makes me WANT to log on. The only reasons I log on are for the glorified chat room with my LS, and the thought that I might maybe have more fun at a higher level. And that really isn't enough to convince most people to play the game. That's why so few people are playing it.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 1:43pm by Mikhalia

It sounds to me like your wanting to experience all the game has to offer within the first 30 minutes of playing. I've got news for ya, it ain't gonna happen. This is an RPG, RPGs take time. All RPGs start you off with rather uninteresting battles at the beginning and ramp up. Given that SE has said that they want the first 20 ranks in this game to be like a tutorial, and the fact that there are several walkthoughs that describe how to achieve r20 in a day, you'd be simply making an uninformed decision if you were to decide to quit due to lack of content at this stage in your FFXIV career. In essence you haven't even completed the tutorial yet.

If you can't put in the work to get through the tutorial and get to the good stuff (ie NMs and r40 leves) then maybe this isn't the game for you. The fact of the matter remains you can't experience the best parts of an MMO in a single day, anyone could have gained the ranks you have in a single day. That being the case, maybe an FPS would be more up your alley.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 3:56pm by Jefro420
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#114 Jan 04 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Two problems that you have brought up:

In terms of FF13, most people who got past the first 15-20 hours of tunnel echo the same thing: "Eventually, it gets better".

In terms of FF14, you just said that you don't think I've gotten far enough to form a well-informed opinion; that the rank 40 content is fun.

Even in terms of FF11, the first part of the game is rather slow and most of the meat and potatoes of what the game is about doesn't pick up until 30-50 or later. Even I have criticized reviewers for only playing FF11 till level 10-15 and writing it off as empty and bland.

That's the whole problem right there: Most people don't want to have to slog through boring content to get to the fun content. The game should be fun right out of the box. A good MMORPG is one that you are enjoying beginning with the VERY FIRST KILL, not later. If I can't make an accurate comment on how fun the game is by level 15 because I "have not experienced enough" then I counter by saying that the game needs to give me something WORTH experiencing prior to level 15.

Because like I pointed out earlier: Many people decide whether or not they're going to like an MMORPG in the first hour. Most decide in the first 15 minutes. Not AFTER the first 15 levels.

Maybe back in 2004 when I played FFXI, I was willing to slog through the boring part to get to the good part. I'm not willing to do so any more. For $75 and an eventual monthly fee, I want to pay to have fun NOW, not pay to maybe have fun eventually.

The days of games that start out slow and pick up speed are numbered, because with all the other game options out there, if a game doesn't draw you in -immediately-, the vast majority of players will put it down and move on to a game that will.

So the question is: What do you want to do to fix FFXIV in such a way that it will convince a brand new player, within 30 minutes or less, that this is a game worth playing? I don't want to hear about the linkshells they should join, or the fun they can have when they're a higher level; the game needs to have SOMETHING that a brand new player can do right out of the box that will keep them logging on, and more importantly: keep them WANTING to log on.

Because if there's nothing to make people want to log on other than "If I level up, it might get better", most people won't. That's exactly why I'm only level 15; there's nothing in FFXIV right now for me at my level that makes me WANT to log on. The only reasons I log on are for the glorified chat room with my LS, and the thought that I might maybe have more fun at a higher level. And that really isn't enough to convince most people to play the game. That's why so few people are playing it.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 1:43pm by Mikhalia

It sounds to me like your wanting to experience all the game has to offer within the first 30 minutes of playing. I've got news for ya, it ain't gonna happen. This is an RPG, RPGs take time. All RPGs start you off with rather uninteresting battles at the beginning and ramp up. Given that SE has said that they want the first 20 ranks in this game to be like a tutorial, and the fact that there are several walkthoughs that describe how to achieve r20 in a day, you'd be simply making an uninformed decision if you were to decide to quit due to lack of content at this stage in your FFXIV career. In essence you haven't even completed the tutorial yet.

If you can't put in the work to get through the tutorial and get to the good stuff (ie NMs and r40 leves) then maybe this isn't the game for you. The fact of the matter remains you can't experience the best parts of an MMO in a single day, anyone could have gained the ranks you have in a single day. That being the case, maybe an FPS would be more up your alley.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 3:56pm by Jefro420


Jefro...you have to understand that you are in the minority here. Theres nothing wrong with that...It's great that there are players out there having fun. If what you are saying is true about this game having suitable content...we wouldn't have a new dev staff, free monthly play, and polls asking us what needs to be fixed. SE is in trouble...and will be making some drastic changes. As you can see...I have tried pretty much every job. But I will not move on past 20-25 on anything for fear they are going to reboot...rebuild...meaning...things are going to change. When they do this...I will welcome it with open arms. Heck...take my 5 million gil, strip my levels...I don't care...I have no real use for it if they change the game into something I thought FFXIV was supposed to be. But you have to understand...today's gamer(those who stuck with it or have left or never tried it) are not going to want to invest 200+ hours of grinding to finally get to some content. SE cannot afford to have anyone re-review this game for the PS3 without making serious changes at all levels of the game.
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#115 Jan 04 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:

Jefro...you have to understand that you are in the minority here. Theres nothing wrong with that...It's great that there are players out there having fun. If what you are saying is true about this game having suitable content...we wouldn't have a new dev staff, free monthly play, and polls asking us what needs to be fixed. SE is in trouble...and will be making some drastic changes. As you can see...I have tried pretty much every job. But I will not move on past 20-25 on anything for fear they are going to reboot...rebuild...meaning...things are going to change. When they do this...I will welcome it with open arms. Heck...take my 5 million gil, strip my levels...I don't care...I have no real use for it if they change the game into something I thought FFXIV was supposed to be. But you have to understand...today's gamer(those who stuck with it or have left or never tried it) are not going to want to invest 200+ hours of grinding to finally get to some content. SE cannot afford to have anyone re-review this game for the PS3 without making serious changes at all levels of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I reside squarely in the "we need more camp" but I don't believe someone that has only put in a few hours worth of work is well enough informed to be complaining as much as Mikhalia does about a lack of content.

Mikhalia has nearly 10,000 posts, most of which I have come across he's complaining about this or that. In order to make a meaningful contribution to the discussions at hand, he/she needs to have more experience with the subject matter. That's all I'm saying.

Sorry Mikhalia, I've got to call you out where I feel it is justified.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 4:36pm by Jefro420
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#116 Jan 04 2011 at 3:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jefro420 wrote:
Simool wrote:

Jefro...you have to understand that you are in the minority here. Theres nothing wrong with that...It's great that there are players out there having fun. If what you are saying is true about this game having suitable content...we wouldn't have a new dev staff, free monthly play, and polls asking us what needs to be fixed. SE is in trouble...and will be making some drastic changes. As you can see...I have tried pretty much every job. But I will not move on past 20-25 on anything for fear they are going to reboot...rebuild...meaning...things are going to change. When they do this...I will welcome it with open arms. Heck...take my 5 million gil, strip my levels...I don't care...I have no real use for it if they change the game into something I thought FFXIV was supposed to be. But you have to understand...today's gamer(those who stuck with it or have left or never tried it) are not going to want to invest 200+ hours of grinding to finally get to some content. SE cannot afford to have anyone re-review this game for the PS3 without making serious changes at all levels of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I reside squarely in the "we need more camp" but I don't believe someone that has only put in a few hours worth of work is well enough informed to be complaining as much as Mikhalia does about a lack of content.

Mikhalia has nearly 10,000 posts, most of which I have come across he's complaining about this or that. In order to make a meaningful contribution to the discussions at hand, he/she needs to have more experience with the subject matter. That's all I'm saying.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 4:27pm by Jefro420



You will find that the loudest complainers are the ones who havent played in months, or never played at all.

Now if people are obviously still playing, and are complaining, they have ALOT more insight as to what is actualy happening and can probly be taken more for their word on what is going on.
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#117 Jan 04 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know...define complaining vs. constructive criticism. I would not really say Mik is complaining. Post count aside....there's a lot of MMO experience behind his posts. I think all of us want whats best for the game...and if we are civil about it...I think everyone should be able to voice their opinion.
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#118 Jan 04 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:
I don't know...define complaining vs. constructive criticism. I would not really say Mik is complaining. Post count aside....there's a lot of MMO experience behind his posts. I think all of us want whats best for the game...and if we are civil about it...I think everyone should be able to voice their opinion.


the problem is alot of these posters are still coming in here with comments such as how long it takes to find items in the markets
posters who are clueless as to whats going on in the game cuz they dont play it, or havent in months

how can you make an informed post about something you havent done or seen?
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#119 Jan 04 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Simool wrote:
I don't know...define complaining vs. constructive criticism. I would not really say Mik is complaining. Post count aside....there's a lot of MMO experience behind his posts. I think all of us want whats best for the game...and if we are civil about it...I think everyone should be able to voice their opinion.

But we're discussing FFXIV, and the fact of the matter remains that if you've only leveled up enough to experience the tutorial (what SE considers the tutorial anyway) you have no ground to stand on in terms of discussing content outside of said tutorial. That is the problem here. I'm not knocking Mikhalia's MMO experience, he/she probably has more of that experience than me. All I'm saying is that you can't make an informed argument about content you have not yet experienced.
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#120 Jan 04 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jefro420 wrote:
Simool wrote:
I don't know...define complaining vs. constructive criticism. I would not really say Mik is complaining. Post count aside....there's a lot of MMO experience behind his posts. I think all of us want whats best for the game...and if we are civil about it...I think everyone should be able to voice their opinion.

But we're discussing FFXIV, and the fact of the matter remains that if you've only leveled up enough to experience the tutorial (what SE considers the tutorial anyway) you have no ground to stand on in terms of discussing content outside of said tutorial. That is the problem here. I'm not knocking Mikhalia's MMO experience, he/she probably has more of that experience than me. All I'm saying is that you can't make an informed argument about content you have not yet experienced.


I hear ya...to me, it just comes down to what everyone values as content. For example of FFXIV content, its fairly obvious what the leve system entails, regardless of what level you do it. If your opinion is that the "leve system" is not as fun as a 'FFXI/WOW/EQ style quest system"...you should be able to say that without experiencing high level leves. I have done a TON of lvl 20 leves and a bunch of 20 faction leves...and know that 30 and 40 leves are supposed to be better....but I still do not like the leve system. It does not draw me into the world. Therefore...I feel SE failed to offer compelling content in that area....and hope they improve or change it.

Point is...I'm not really sure there is enough content yet to say those who have not leveled far into the game are not allowed have an opinion based on their past experiences in other MMO's.
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#121 Jan 04 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jefro420 wrote:

But we're discussing FFXIV, and the fact of the matter remains that if you've only leveled up enough to experience the tutorial (what SE considers the tutorial anyway) you have no ground to stand on in terms of discussing content outside of said tutorial. That is the problem here. I'm not knocking Mikhalia's MMO experience, he/she probably has more of that experience than me. All I'm saying is that you can't make an informed argument about content you have not yet experienced.


I don't think that was Mik's argument.

His argument was that the beginning wasn't fun enough for him to continue on. He may have implied that struggling through the beginning doesn't justify the later content no matter how great. Even so I don't think the later content (without experiencing it) sounds any different than the low level content. And I think a lot of people have expressed that.

In any case, people don't have to suffer through a boring tutorial, that's antiquated thinking.

You can learn the basics and still have fun, provided the content is substantial.

I've done the same leves 100's of times and if things continue and I level other classes I'll do them 100 more.

What am I learning?
#122 Jan 04 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
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Kierk wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:

But we're discussing FFXIV, and the fact of the matter remains that if you've only leveled up enough to experience the tutorial (what SE considers the tutorial anyway) you have no ground to stand on in terms of discussing content outside of said tutorial. That is the problem here. I'm not knocking Mikhalia's MMO experience, he/she probably has more of that experience than me. All I'm saying is that you can't make an informed argument about content you have not yet experienced.


I don't think that was Mik's argument.

His argument was that the beginning wasn't fun enough for him to continue on. He may have implied that struggling through the beginning doesn't justify the later content no matter how great. Even so I don't think the later content (without experiencing it) sounds any different than the low level content. And I think a lot of people have expressed that.

In any case, people don't have to suffer through a boring tutorial, that's antiquated thinking.

You can learn the basics and still have fun, provided the content is substantial.

I've done the same leves 100's of times and if things continue and I level other classes I'll do them 100 more.

What am I learning?


Exactly correct. I'm not going to try to make a claim about higher level content that I haven't tried out, because I'm not qualified to do so. I'm also not expecting the game to hand me everything in the first 30 minutes.

What I'm expecting is a game that I can play for 5-7 years or more, and that that game should be a fun, enjoyable experience from the moment I create my character to the moment the servers are shut off.

Am I expecting that I shouldn't have to work at it? No, I'm prepared to.

Am I expecting that I shouldn't have to deal with time sinks? No, I'm going to.

Am I expecting that the game should be easy and I should breeze through it without effort? Heaven forbid; I would hate that.

What I -am- expecting is that the game gives me a reason to want to play beyond "Eventually, you'll be able to have fun".

I'm not even saying that this game isn't fun for anyone; I am well aware that many people are having fun with the game. What I -am- saying is that as far as I'm concerned, a person's ability to enjoy a -game- should not hinge on "how long they have played it".

Not to state the obvious, but games should be enjoyable. I just assume that's a given. I don't mind working -at- a game, but if a game is going to -be- work; if it's going to be something where I'm putting effort in and don't enjoy it, then why am -I- paying -them-? I mean, I work 8 hours a day, I put in effort and work, and every two weeks, -they- pay -me-. So if FFXIV is going to be something I'm not going to enjoy, then why doesn't SE pay me by the hour to play it?

I mean, I pay for a movie because I expect to be entertained. I pay for a comedy show because I expect to be entertained. I pay for a concert because I expect to be entertained. If I pay for a game... I expect to be entertained. Seems like a reasonable request.

Now as far as my MMORPG experience, I'll give a couple polar examples:

- I'm told that EVE is a very fun game by many people who play it. However, when faced with the sheer amount of time that needs to go into training skills while doing gopher missions from planet to planet while trying to avoid being podded (unless you never leave 1.0 sec areas), it's boring.

- Ragnarok Online was fun as **** to start. I enjoyed the everliving **** out of that game, and even was fine with the rebirth (after maxing your level, your character restarts at level 1 again with boosted stats and your level cap is increased) but eventually got bored because while I was having fun, it was just the same thing over and over with no endgame content aside from MVPs (similar to HNM in FFXI).

- Final Fantasy XI was slow at first and very boring. It didn't really pick up until later levels and I really started having fun around midgame and started having a lot of fun around endgame. The destination was enjoyable, and the trip was enjoyable, but it's not a trip I really care to embark upon again.

- World of Warcraft was enjoyable and fun from the very start and it became very obvious very quickly why it has so many casual players; it's very action oriented and it makes you feel like you're actually accomplishing something. By the time you get to endgame you realize that endgame is just a hamster wheel of gear replacement and I eventually got bored of it and got off.

I've played others, but these are four good examples that get my point across.

So ultimately, what I'm looking for is something that is as fun from day one as WoW and RO were, and remains as fun in the end as FFXI and EVE.

A -game- that is -fun- the -entire- time you're playing it. It's a novel concept. I think it might work.
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#123 Jan 04 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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MMO mentality is that everyone talks a whole lot of nothing outside the game and nothing at all inside.
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#124 Jan 04 2011 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Just to echo what Mik said, and coming from someone in the camp of those who have "stuck with it," why should anyone have to play a game for 100 hours to be stimulated in any sense? The newness of this game wears off quickly when you hit your fourth or fifth leve cycle and realize that no matter what you do you're repeating the same actions till you hit the promised land some 500,000 SP later.

No one wants to install and see the Absolute Virtue of XIV under their character's feet. But a game that can hide the repetition would be nice. To sort of bring back the OP, there was a time when inching toward the good stuff was tolerable. Before mortgages and significant others and children and a myriad of other responsibilities.

Today's market is driven by share holders who want a return on their investment. To do that developers need to appeal to a wider audience with a shrinking amount of time and money to dedicate to gaming. The time the OP longs for faded when gaming left the comfort zone of being a niche market and became a multimillion dollar industry.

So why can't people trudge through 100 hours of repetitious actions to finally be rewarded with something reminiscent of "fun"? Because there's too many companies out there that understand how to grab a player from the start with each and every installment of a franchise. Each of these games takes a chunk out of that "disposable income" pie. SE knows that even MMOs are slave to this, which as why they have reacted the way they have.

If someone wants to make a hardcore MMO, they're within their rights. But they need to advertise it as such and plan their potential profits accordingly. Not by sinking 5 years and millions of dollars into it.

This game was intended for a broad audience, but has no content for the audience they desired. "The game begins at 100 hours" will not suffice. And that doesn't make those people feeble or undeserving. It makes them humans who just want to relax a little in their life. "This is not the game for them," is complete bull. This was designed for them, but what was shipped was a shell of the game that was envisioned.



Edited, Jan 4th 2011 9:17pm by Sephrick
#125 Jan 04 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A -game- that is -fun- the -entire- time you're playing it. It's a novel concept. I think it might work.


I'm no game developer, but I suspect that such a game doesn't exist because the development required far exceeds the profit it would gain. WoW is the only thing resembling such a game, and look how many people absolutely hate it. To develop the perfect MMO that the vast majority of players will enjoy every hour from day one is, in my opinion, impossible due to the sheer scale of such a project. You'd need everything from old school RPG style quests to grinding to dungeons to NM camping, several different methods of crafting, solo, small group, big group, epic group content, etc. etc. etc... all from day one.

It's when games try to become the perfect game that they generally fail. Look at how many crowds FFXIV tried to cater to and failed at almost every one. When a game finds a niche, then it succeeds. But by definition niche games don't please everyone.

FFXIV will grow, it will have more of the content you want. All MMOs grow. It's perfectly reasonable to dislike FFXIV right now, but the reasonable reaction would be to set it down and pick it up in 6-12 months after a few major content updates and perhaps the first expansion. I suspect many of the things you find un-fun will become fun in the future. We can rant and rave about what should have been done regarding FFXIV till the cows come home. But that wont make it fun, that only causes aneurisms.
#126 Jan 04 2011 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I agree with Kachi but I don't feel like I see through rose-colored glasses. Maybe I just don't understand that phrase, but I do agree that the problem with "games" today is that the expectations of consumers has changed due to the availability of games. It's true that they were once rare. It made them much more precious. You really got your money's worth and with only a few games that were absolutely gold (to you) it was easy to determine A+ games.


That phrase just refers to nostalgia bias. People remember things more fondly than they actually were. Perfectly normal thing that all humans do (to most things, no less).

I don't even necessarily mean that games were rarer-- video gaming was new and it exposed us to a lot of gaming concepts that were previously not possible.

But more importantly, I am referring to our youth. When we are younger, more things are new to us. The things we take for granted now, like the idea of killing monsters with an armed party, are relatively new ideas, full of imagination and possibility. When we are younger, even the most fundamental aspects of video gaming provide enjoyment that we lose as we grow older.

For many people, it's next to impossible to enjoy today's video games as much as they enjoyed the video games they played growing up, purely as a matter of normal human psychology.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#127 Jan 04 2011 at 6:07 PM Rating: Good
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A -game- that is -fun- the -entire- time you're playing it. It's a novel concept. I think it might work.


I'm no game developer, but I suspect that such a game doesn't exist because the development required far exceeds the profit it would gain. WoW is the only thing resembling such a game, and look how many people absolutely hate it. To develop the perfect MMO that the vast majority of players will enjoy every hour from day one is, in my opinion, impossible due to the sheer scale of such a project. You'd need everything from old school RPG style quests to grinding to dungeons to NM camping, several different methods of crafting, solo, small group, big group, epic group content, etc. etc. etc... all from day one.

It's when games try to become the perfect game that they generally fail. Look at how many crowds FFXIV tried to cater to and failed at almost every one. When a game finds a niche, then it succeeds. But by definition niche games don't please everyone.


I don't entirely disagree. I'm pretty confident that "The perfect MMORPG for everyone" is a pipe dream. As a matter of fact, I can come up with four reasons why right off the top of my head:

- Some people prefer to be all things in one character and others prefer multiple alts, each with defined roles. Given that you're going to have to group with other people at some point, combining these two is an impossibility.
- Some people prefer a game that heavily emphasizes all players forced to group up from the start and others prefer to not group at all until the end. Impossible to combine these two because the second excludes the first.
- Some people prefer world PvP where anyone can attack anyone else, anywhere, for any (or no) reason, with or without warning. Some people only prefer PvP in limited capacity on an opt-in basis, and some people want nothing to do with PvP at all anywhere at all. Any attempt to spark a balance is never going to be truly balanced for -everyone- in all situations.
- Some people want their gear to have staying power for a long time, where gear upgrades are something to look forward to, and others are content with gear being largely irrelevant in the scheme of things. You can't make gear permanent and also temporal.

I agree that no game can be all things to all people, because as you touched on, it will invariably fail in some, if not all respects. To put it simply: if you try to please everyone, you will please no one.

So while I concede the point that there is no perfect game and never will be, I still think that a game needs to set a goal for itself in its embryonic state: The developers need to decide whether they're going to say "This is our target audience, we're going to give them what they want and @#%^ anyone else" and stick to their guns, or they need to say "We want to please as many people as possible, and we need to accept that many of our hardcore fans and players will be unhappy and leave us".

In the end, if a company's goal is maximum profit, then they need to mimic the model of making a game fun from the start. Even if it -does- peter out at the end and players end up quitting, at least you kept them entertained until that point, and you can always try to add in more fun at the end later. If the game has all the fun in the back end of it, most of the people who try your game will never see it.

You wouldn't go for a restaurant and wait 50 hours for your food. You wouldn't go to a movie theater and sit through 50 hours of "Turn off your cell phone, @#%^" and "Tell your ****** spawn to shut the **** up" commercials before watching the movie. You wouldn't go to an amusement part and stand in line for 50 hours to ride a roller coaster (or haunted house or bumper cars or whatever). Why would you want to sit at your computer (or PS3) and wait 50 hours for your video game to start being fun? You shouldn't have to.

...and yes, I'm aware of the people who are crazy and camp outside of stores 2-3 days early awaiting some new release like a brand new console or Halo 3 or something. I admire their patience, but I wouldn't want to do it.

EDIT: More accurately, if -this- is the group of people you're counting on to make money off of and keep your game alive, you'll find yourself with a very small playerbase. Dedicated, yes. But very small.

Hydragyrum wrote:
FFXIV will grow, it will have more of the content you want. All MMOs grow. It's perfectly reasonable to dislike FFXIV right now, but the reasonable reaction would be to set it down and pick it up in 6-12 months after a few major content updates and perhaps the first expansion. I suspect many of the things you find un-fun will become fun in the future. We can rant and rave about what should have been done regarding FFXIV till the cows come home. But that wont make it fun, that only causes aneurisms.


That pretty much is my reaction. After each major patch, I check back and play the game a little more until I get bored of it again. I am noticing that with each patch, it is getting better. The market wards search, while not an AH, is a HUGE improvement. The chat limit increase is also a massive improvement that I'm thrilled to see. I -am- noticing the core mechanics of the game slowly being improved. I'm still not really having "fun" yet, but the game is getting there.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 7:15pm by Mikhalia
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#128 Jan 04 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A -game- that is -fun- the -entire- time you're playing it. It's a novel concept. I think it might work.


I'm no game developer, but I suspect that such a game doesn't exist because the development required far exceeds the profit it would gain. WoW is the only thing resembling such a game, and look how many people absolutely hate it. To develop the perfect MMO that the vast majority of players will enjoy every hour from day one is, in my opinion, impossible due to the sheer scale of such a project. You'd need everything from old school RPG style quests to grinding to dungeons to NM camping, several different methods of crafting, solo, small group, big group, epic group content, etc. etc. etc... all from day one.

It's when games try to become the perfect game that they generally fail. Look at how many crowds FFXIV tried to cater to and failed at almost every one. When a game finds a niche, then it succeeds. But by definition niche games don't please everyone.

FFXIV will grow, it will have more of the content you want. All MMOs grow. It's perfectly reasonable to dislike FFXIV right now, but the reasonable reaction would be to set it down and pick it up in 6-12 months after a few major content updates and perhaps the first expansion. I suspect many of the things you find un-fun will become fun in the future. We can rant and rave about what should have been done regarding FFXIV till the cows come home. But that wont make it fun, that only causes aneurisms.


About the same amount of people that hate WOW, hate this game <.< the difference is 12million subs X 14.99 = 180mil a month, thats 2.1 billions a year, just from vanilla wow(A must buy if you wanna play WOW) they made 480million dollars, add 3 expansions at $40 thats 480 million each time X 3 :) Blizzard can afford to release FFXIV fail mode 100 times and not worry about it finance's, SE DOES NOT HAS THAT LUXURY!

As far as the most perfect MMO goes, World of warcraft is that game :) Do i love WOW ? No, i take it for what it is, a game that caters to everybody, in wish you can accomplish something at times with low time requirements. Will it remain on top of the MMO food chain forever ? Hopefully not, but developers have not learned how to beat it :)

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#129 Jan 04 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
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Ostia wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A -game- that is -fun- the -entire- time you're playing it. It's a novel concept. I think it might work.


I'm no game developer, but I suspect that such a game doesn't exist because the development required far exceeds the profit it would gain. WoW is the only thing resembling such a game, and look how many people absolutely hate it. To develop the perfect MMO that the vast majority of players will enjoy every hour from day one is, in my opinion, impossible due to the sheer scale of such a project. You'd need everything from old school RPG style quests to grinding to dungeons to NM camping, several different methods of crafting, solo, small group, big group, epic group content, etc. etc. etc... all from day one.

It's when games try to become the perfect game that they generally fail. Look at how many crowds FFXIV tried to cater to and failed at almost every one. When a game finds a niche, then it succeeds. But by definition niche games don't please everyone.

FFXIV will grow, it will have more of the content you want. All MMOs grow. It's perfectly reasonable to dislike FFXIV right now, but the reasonable reaction would be to set it down and pick it up in 6-12 months after a few major content updates and perhaps the first expansion. I suspect many of the things you find un-fun will become fun in the future. We can rant and rave about what should have been done regarding FFXIV till the cows come home. But that wont make it fun, that only causes aneurisms.


About the same amount of people that hate WOW, hate this game <.< the difference is 12million subs X 14.99 = 180mil a month, thats 2.1 billions a year, just from vanilla wow(A must buy if you wanna play WOW) they made 480million dollars, add 3 expansions at $40 thats 480 million each time X 3 :) Blizzard can afford to release FFXIV fail mode 100 times and not worry about it finance's, SE DOES NOT HAS THAT LUXURY!

As far as the most perfect MMO goes, World of warcraft is that game :) Do i love WOW ? No, i take it for what it is, a game that caters to everybody, in wish you can accomplish something at times with low time requirements. Will it remain on top of the MMO food chain forever ? Hopefully not, but developers have not learned how to beat it :)


WoW isn't perfect, and it doesn't cater to everyone. WoW caters to -most- people, and that's what keeps it going. Actually, WoW's primary marketing strategy has relied on this. Nearly any other product on the market with a commercial talks about what it offers you. "0 Calories", "Slices and dices with ease", "Gets out stains in a breeze!", "Makes your clothes smell like new!", etc. WoW's primary marketing effort has been "This celebrity plays WoW. ___ million people play WoW. You should play WoW." You're never going to see a commercial of some pimply faced youth talking about how his +5 Sword of awesome increased his DPS against the Dragon King by 2%, or some 35 year old mom holding her son in one arm and saying "Killing 10 rats and delivering a package to an Elf is so ******* awesome!" It just doesn't happen, even though that's pretty much what the game -is-. The game draws you in by saying "We have more people playing our game than any other game".

It's not the only company to utilize this marketing tactic either. Many companies will happily tell you they were rated safest car in America or that they won an award for "Best Place to Eat" by some magazine you've never heard of. Cable/Satellite providers won't hesitate to mention that they have more subscribers than their competitor, and retailers won't think twice about letting you know that more people shop there than anywhere else, because they know that people have this twang in the back of their minds that makes you want to be like everyone else, and if -everyone- is doing X, surely you should at least CONSIDER doing X, right? I mean, it can't be bad, otherwise this many people wouldn't be doing it.

Did you know that over 2.5 MILLION AMERICANS are in Prison? Right now! Right this moment, they are in prison, getting free food, and a rent free room, with a great workout program every day! If I put a little more spin on that, I could probably turn that into a commercial to make you want to at least TRY prison. I mean, ****, 2.5 million people can't be wrong.

Now to clarify, I'm not comparing WoW to prison, simply pointing out that popularity does not imply greatness; it just implies popularity. Popularity usually means profitability, too, but how many people are really prepared to argue that Justin Bieber or Britney Spears are some of the best recording artists of all time, simply based on their popularity?

Do I think WoW can be "beaten"? Maybe. But it is unlikely to happen soon, unless Blizzard does something major to **** off a huge chunk of people. WoW is aimed primarily at a casual audience and it has managed to put a really good stranglehold on that slice of the pie in terms of available players. Most casual players are not going to play more than one MMORPG, so the only way to beat WoW is to simultaneously offer a BETTER casual experience than WoW, which is technically possible, while ALSO overcoming the obstacle of the "Everyone is playing it" argument.

I think that if some game can manage to wrest 2-4 million players away from WoW and keep them interested, then it has a good shot at dethroning WoW since these ex-WoW players will convince their friends to join them, and as WoW starts to decline, the "Everyone is playing it" boat sinks and all you're left with is the game itself.

The question is, how do you make a better burger than the best burger? How do you make a better soft drink than the best soft drink? How do you make a better pair of shoes than the best pair of shoes?

And more importantly, how do you convince people that it's worth trying when "everyone" is already using the "best" product?
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#130 Jan 04 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Hydragyrum wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
A -game- that is -fun- the -entire- time you're playing it. It's a novel concept. I think it might work.


I'm no game developer, but I suspect that such a game doesn't exist because the development required far exceeds the profit it would gain. WoW is the only thing resembling such a game, and look how many people absolutely hate it. To develop the perfect MMO that the vast majority of players will enjoy every hour from day one is, in my opinion, impossible due to the sheer scale of such a project. You'd need everything from old school RPG style quests to grinding to dungeons to NM camping, several different methods of crafting, solo, small group, big group, epic group content, etc. etc. etc... all from day one.

It's when games try to become the perfect game that they generally fail. Look at how many crowds FFXIV tried to cater to and failed at almost every one. When a game finds a niche, then it succeeds. But by definition niche games don't please everyone.

FFXIV will grow, it will have more of the content you want. All MMOs grow. It's perfectly reasonable to dislike FFXIV right now, but the reasonable reaction would be to set it down and pick it up in 6-12 months after a few major content updates and perhaps the first expansion. I suspect many of the things you find un-fun will become fun in the future. We can rant and rave about what should have been done regarding FFXIV till the cows come home. But that wont make it fun, that only causes aneurisms.


About the same amount of people that hate WOW, hate this game <.< the difference is 12million subs X 14.99 = 180mil a month, thats 2.1 billions a year, just from vanilla wow(A must buy if you wanna play WOW) they made 480million dollars, add 3 expansions at $40 thats 480 million each time X 3 :) Blizzard can afford to release FFXIV fail mode 100 times and not worry about it finance's, SE DOES NOT HAS THAT LUXURY!

As far as the most perfect MMO goes, World of warcraft is that game :) Do i love WOW ? No, i take it for what it is, a game that caters to everybody, in wish you can accomplish something at times with low time requirements. Will it remain on top of the MMO food chain forever ? Hopefully not, but developers have not learned how to beat it :)


WoW isn't perfect, and it doesn't cater to everyone. WoW caters to -most- people, and that's what keeps it going. Actually, WoW's primary marketing strategy has relied on this. Nearly any other product on the market with a commercial talks about what it offers you. "0 Calories", "Slices and dices with ease", "Gets out stains in a breeze!", "Makes your clothes smell like new!", etc. WoW's primary marketing effort has been "This celebrity plays WoW. ___ million people play WoW. You should play WoW." You're never going to see a commercial of some pimply faced youth talking about how his +5 Sword of awesome increased his DPS against the Dragon King by 2%, or some 35 year old mom holding her son in one arm and saying "Killing 10 rats and delivering a package to an Elf is so @#%^ing awesome!" It just doesn't happen, even though that's pretty much what the game -is-. The game draws you in by saying "We have more people playing our game than any other game".

It's not the only company to utilize this marketing tactic either. Many companies will happily tell you they were rated safest car in America or that they won an award for "Best Place to Eat" by some magazine you've never heard of. Cable/Satellite providers won't hesitate to mention that they have more subscribers than their competitor, and retailers won't think twice about letting you know that more people shop there than anywhere else, because they know that people have this twang in the back of their minds that makes you want to be like everyone else, and if -everyone- is doing X, surely you should at least CONSIDER doing X, right? I mean, it can't be bad, otherwise this many people wouldn't be doing it.

Did you know that over 2.5 MILLION AMERICANS are in Prison? Right now! Right this moment, they are in prison, getting free food, and a rent free room, with a great workout program every day! If I put a little more spin on that, I could probably turn that into a commercial to make you want to at least TRY prison. I mean, ****, 2.5 million people can't be wrong.

Now to clarify, I'm not comparing WoW to prison, simply pointing out that popularity does not imply greatness; it just implies popularity. Popularity usually means profitability, too, but how many people are really prepared to argue that Justin Bieber or Britney Spears are some of the best recording artists of all time, simply based on their popularity?

Do I think WoW can be "beaten"? Maybe. But it is unlikely to happen soon, unless Blizzard does something major to **** off a huge chunk of people. WoW is aimed primarily at a casual audience and it has managed to put a really good stranglehold on that slice of the pie in terms of available players. Most casual players are not going to play more than one MMORPG, so the only way to beat WoW is to simultaneously offer a BETTER casual experience than WoW, which is technically possible, while ALSO overcoming the obstacle of the "Everyone is playing it" argument.

I think that if some game can manage to wrest 2-4 million players away from WoW and keep them interested, then it has a good shot at dethroning WoW since these ex-WoW players will convince their friends to join them, and as WoW starts to decline, the "Everyone is playing it" boat sinks and all you're left with is the game itself.

The question is, how do you make a better burger than the best burger? How do you make a better soft drink than the best soft drink? How do you make a better pair of shoes than the best pair of shoes?

And more importantly, how do you convince people that it's worth trying when "everyone" is already using the "best" product?


I think that dismissing Wow's success by saying is just "Popular" is utter BS, the game has to be doing quite a few things right fundamentally in order to have become the giant it is Today. For example before WOW the only game that even reached 1mil subs was EQ, and WOW matched and increased that amount by 1000% It has the highest retention rate out of any MMO, now i agree they bank to much on it's popularity that i agree on, but the game is fun in many level's as opposed to most MMO's wich only cater to a certain crowd and if you are not in that demographic you are screwed.

As to how to beat the beast ? well how did WOW beat EQ ? They doubled everything that EQ did from the gate out :)
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#131 Jan 04 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Grinding is a neccessary part of any MMO, that's how they make money. You cannot get into endgame from day one (what total fail would that be). MMOs are time consuming, this is part of the genre of RPGs. Those who do have some time to devote to an MMO should be rewarded for their effort, and not feel cheated by an easy game.
No one is questioning whether grinding should be part of an MMO. I mentioned a long while ago, though, that there is a notable difference between having grinding and timesinks for the sake of having them and having grinding and timesinks that are reasonable and do not bore a normal person to tears.
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The game progression of WoW is a prime example. Compare vannilla and BC to Wrath and Cata, and it's the very reason why some people have quit WoW, too many free rides in that game. Anything with an ounce of challenge is nerfed, it makes me wonder how many players of WoW would QQ at a chess match, because they couldn't use a cheat or get it nerfed.
The bar in WoW has shifted too much, and blizzard has gone out of their way to make the game harder. That's what is driving people away from WoW. The working dads, the grandpas and technologically-impaired aunts that were able to raid Icecrown Citadel have found they don't have that luxury in Cata if they pick the "wrong classes" and "wrong specs". To some, development in cata took several steps backwards in both combat and class design (I'm on the fence on that one, but seeing where ret paladins are currently sitting...).

As far as "free rides", I don't know what you mean. The only thing I know of that would come close to one would be the faction buff in Icecrown Citadel (which I thought was a bit overboard). Ulduar hard modes were not a free ride. Hard mode TotC was not a free ride. ****, Black Temple and Sunwell Plateau in BC were not free rides. Funny, too, because the majority of the complaints on raid design during Lich King were all from the super elite raiders that in BC and Vanilla were the only ones seeing the story content tied to raids back then.
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How many current WoW players would QQ, if they had to Do CoP, Salvage, and dynamis?
You mean, the expansion with crappily designed zones that were created solely to be a pain in the *** to travel through (Uleguerand Range, Newton Movalpolos), an event where the "difficulty" was in that everything was locked up, and a zone that was more difficult due to congestion from the other 90 shells looking to get in.
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How many wow players would be able to carry out a stun rotation?
It is no more difficult than an interrupt rotation involving a rogue, shaman and fury warrior. Next.
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Put forth real team effort, I have played WoW for 4 years, and seen the progressive decline in player skill, because they got everything handed to them without an ounce of effort.
The "progressive decline" came about because you were seeing much less cream of the crop players in raids and more ordinary people. I've had my share of bad players in raids, but they are vastly different than the granpas, grandmas, aunts and other unlikely members of a raid that, while not cream of the crop, do try their **** hardest to contribute. A guildmate's mom was a perfect example. The lady could barely do things with a keyboard without having to focus, but she was a nice person and we could tell she was trying her hardest to make her mage as acceptable as she could when raiding. And believe me, I'd rather have her and her somewhat-lower DPS in a raid over the annoying achievement-***** mage that had the keyboard wired to his head.

Edited, Jan 4th 2011 9:21pm by Ruisu
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#132 Jan 05 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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As someone who has run them all pretty much. The new heroics were hard for like 2 days. Only because people are dumb.
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#133 Jan 05 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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GuardianFaith wrote:
As someone who has run them all pretty much. The new heroics were hard for like 2 days. Only because people are dumb DBM/BigWigs didn't tell them what to do.


Fixed.

Seriously, I'm not saying that all WoW players, or even most are dumb, just that addons are very good at disguising the dumb ones.

For as much as people whined about not wanting FFXI to have addons, "Windower is unfair", blah blah blah... I wonder how many people would be unable to function in WoW without raid/dungeon addons. I'm not even talking about stuff like Auctioneer and Cartographer and such, but specifically the raid addons that spell out every phase of the fight and what to do when. I question how many raiding guilds that -require- their members to have these addons would be as successful as they are if these addons did not exist.

Just a thought.
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#134 Jan 05 2011 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
GuardianFaith wrote:
As someone who has run them all pretty much. The new heroics were hard for like 2 days. Only because people are dumb DBM/BigWigs didn't tell them what to do.


Fixed.

Seriously, I'm not saying that all WoW players, or even most are dumb, just that addons are very good at disguising the dumb ones.

For as much as people whined about not wanting FFXI to have addons, "Windower is unfair", blah blah blah... I wonder how many people would be unable to function in WoW without raid/dungeon addons. I'm not even talking about stuff like Auctioneer and Cartographer and such, but specifically the raid addons that spell out every phase of the fight and what to do when. I question how many raiding guilds that -require- their members to have these addons would be as successful as they are if these addons did not exist.

Just a thought.


sad but true, and the current wow players here preaching it will totaly deny that its true
before i quit wow i was in the 2nd best guild on my server(very high pop one too) and even i can say that without those addons, we would be nothing
the players who forgot to download updated versions, ALWAYS the ones who would mess up on fights, the ones who wouldnt know when to move at what time, when to not stand in front of a mob cuz hes about to cough, when each phase would change based on a timer the program had down to a science based on when he does certain actions.

these are all things that people can not humanly do on their own nonstop without affecting their raid performance itself, sure you could dedicate someone to watching every little thing and calling it out, but that takes away from vent time when other things may need to be said, and since hes paying such close attention he is also not doing everything he can as fast as he can, and not to mention lag time in between the calls to when people here and respond.

in the end it adds up to the fact they are enhancers that 99% of the raiding population who tries to be the best can not do without
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#135 Jan 05 2011 at 11:11 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Fixed.

Seriously, I'm not saying that all WoW players, or even most are dumb, just that addons are very good at disguising the dumb ones.

For as much as people whined about not wanting FFXI to have addons, "Windower is unfair", blah blah blah... I wonder how many people would be unable to function in WoW without raid/dungeon addons. I'm not even talking about stuff like Auctioneer and Cartographer and such, but specifically the raid addons that spell out every phase of the fight and what to do when. I question how many raiding guilds that -require- their members to have these addons would be as successful as they are if these addons did not exist.

Just a thought.


Keep in mind that Blizzard designs most raid fights knowing that people will use DBM/BigWigs. There is much, much less tolerance for ***** ups in WOW's bosses than most of FFXI's bosses. It's hard to compare FFXI endgame to WOW endgame.
#136 Jan 05 2011 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Fixed.

Seriously, I'm not saying that all WoW players, or even most are dumb, just that addons are very good at disguising the dumb ones.

For as much as people whined about not wanting FFXI to have addons, "Windower is unfair", blah blah blah... I wonder how many people would be unable to function in WoW without raid/dungeon addons. I'm not even talking about stuff like Auctioneer and Cartographer and such, but specifically the raid addons that spell out every phase of the fight and what to do when. I question how many raiding guilds that -require- their members to have these addons would be as successful as they are if these addons did not exist.

Just a thought.


Keep in mind that Blizzard designs most raid fights knowing that people will use DBM/BigWigs. There is much, much less tolerance for ***** ups in WOW's bosses than most of FFXI's bosses. It's hard to compare FFXI endgame to WOW endgame.


And doesn't it seem like an obvious flaw in the system when the fights are designed under the knowledge that people will use addons to tell them what's about to happen? I mean, why not just skip the middle man and have the game warn you itself?

I mean, I know that Blizzard knows people use addons, and that they even go sso far as to encourage addon development, but thereare some addons like Auctioneer or AtlasLoot or Cartographer that Blizzard should just natively inorporate into the game like they did with QuestHelper; IMO I still liked the QuestHelper addon better than WoW's Quest Helper feature, but this is a good example of a developer saying "Hey, we like this idea that our players have come up with; let's use it." I wish SE would have done that with Windower.

But in the case of addons like DBM, it seems like there's soething wrong with fights that all but "require" you to have it. I mean, you can't tell me that the fights are IMPOSSIBLE without them, because SOMEONE had to figure out the timings and the tactics in order to write the addon in the first place. So logically, the fights CAN be beaten without those addons. But it just seems like a vicious cycle to say that Blizzard designs the fights knowing people will use the addons, and therefore people "have to".
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#137 Jan 05 2011 at 11:55 PM Rating: Good
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I don't like it either; nor did I like it when people relied on preapproved strats to tackle fights in XI. It's partially a problem of game design with respect to the battles themselves-- battles work similar to how they would in single-player/offline games, but don't take in to account the social pressures in MMOs that take away that individual choice to use a guide or not.

Ultimately, they're a result of the social pressures themselves, which are bred by the game's motivators. i.e., people pressure others to use them because victory helps them get closer to their goals while defeat moves them further away. Games that are more forgiving of defeat are less likely to make players rely on such tools. Not just with death penalties, but with the ability to repeat attempts, and with respect to the organizational problems (like needing 2hour abilities, or needing certain classes, which may make it difficult to repeat attempts with an actual chance for victory).
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#138 Jan 06 2011 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
And doesn't it seem like an obvious flaw in the system when the fights are designed under the knowledge that people will use addons to tell them what's about to happen? I mean, why not just skip the middle man and have the game warn you itself?


It does! There's tons of boss emotes, shouts, long cast/channel times, and build in raid warnings. They're not as plain or easy to understand as DBM, but they're accurate. It's a completely different system of boss fights. Bosses are made mostly predictable, but that doesn't necessarily make them easier. They're also doable without DBM.

p.s. I feel like we've had this discussion before.

Quote:
I mean, I know that Blizzard knows people use addons, and that they even go sso far as to encourage addon development, but thereare some addons like Auctioneer or AtlasLoot or Cartographer that Blizzard should just natively inorporate into the game like they did with QuestHelper; IMO I still liked the QuestHelper addon better than WoW's Quest Helper feature, but this is a good example of a developer saying "Hey, we like this idea that our players have come up with; let's use it." I wish SE would have done that with Windower.

But in the case of addons like DBM, it seems like there's soething wrong with fights that all but "require" you to have it. I mean, you can't tell me that the fights are IMPOSSIBLE without them, because SOMEONE had to figure out the timings and the tactics in order to write the addon in the first place. So logically, the fights CAN be beaten without those addons. But it just seems like a vicious cycle to say that Blizzard designs the fights knowing people will use the addons, and therefore people "have to".


They design the hard mode fights keeping DBM in mind, because they know that players will use it. Normal mode encounters are tuned for people that don't get DBM (or get DBM but don't pay attention anyways), and hard mode encounters are tuned for people who will be using DBM or are super hardcore, top of the line guilds who write the strategy guides for DBM. It's become almost de-facto that hardcore raiders will use DBM. I don't think it's a bad thing; I think it actually allows for a little more complexity in boss fights.

Of course DBM would be completely negated if bosses had random timers/moves, but then I think that would reduce complexity in a lot of bosses. I can't imagine a boss that requires well geared players, is complex, is random, and is killable (AV anyone?).

Whatever SE decides to do in terms of DBM style addons is fine with me. I like both apples and oranges.
#139 Jan 06 2011 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Something as simple as turning on the cast bar for mobs, can negate DBMs usefullness. But even with concise instructions and DBM, people just choose not to put any effort into it. The new to raiding experince should of been handed to a lower tier raid. Nothing in WoW teaches raid mechanics, but raiding.

The idea that some had to do raid progression, while others didn't made for poor game stradgedy. The difference being is the quality of pugs pre toc and those pugs post toc. Considering I pugged every 25 man in Wrath I saw the difference. You're very first raid ever in a game should not be the raid at endgame. If players had to finish ULD before hitting ICC, it would of been a difference experience, then what it turned out to be.

Here's the same ole excuse I have heard repeatedly, 'then don't pug", don't level any alts, pay to not play a game, that makes sense, I came up with a better one and just don't play at all any more.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 7:40am by Spyrit178
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#140 Jan 06 2011 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Mik, I'm not going to disagree and say the leve system is perfect. Let me be perfectly clear, I know that leves are about all this game has to offer right now to the non-crafter. Obviously the earlier leves could use some more variety. In fact there is absolutely no need for BRs until the r40 leves, you could easily push 1 to win all the way to r33. But to make an over-arching statement that the leve system is crap is going to far.

What SE needs to do to improve the system is make BRs and incapacitation essential on earlier leves. Rank 20 leves would probably be better. We need more faction leves, and easier access to them. Maybe more interactions with NPCs during leves, and leves with cut-scenes or instances would be great too. All of which is totally doable within the current system.

I don't think the leve system can be tossed out as inherently un-fun, but it's definitely incomplete.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 10:23am by Jefro420
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#141 Jan 06 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Wolfums wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
And doesn't it seem like an obvious flaw in the system when the fights are designed under the knowledge that people will use addons to tell them what's about to happen? I mean, why not just skip the middle man and have the game warn you itself?


It does! There's tons of boss emotes, shouts, long cast/channel times, and build in raid warnings. They're not as plain or easy to understand as DBM, but they're accurate. It's a completely different system of boss fights. Bosses are made mostly predictable, but that doesn't necessarily make them easier. They're also doable without DBM.

p.s. I feel like we've had this discussion before.


Maybe we have Smiley: lol

Spyrit178 wrote:
Something as simple as turning on the cast bar for mobs, can negate DBMs usefullness. But even with concise instructions and DBM, people just choose not to put any effort into it. The new to raiding experince should of been handed to a lower tier raid. Nothing in WoW teaches raid mechanics, but raiding.

The idea that some had to do raid progression, while others didn't made for poor game stradgedy. The difference being is the quality of pugs pre toc and those pugs post toc. Considering I pugged every 25 man in Wrath I saw the difference. You're very first raid ever in a game should not be the raid at endgame. If players had to finish ULD before hitting ICC, it would of been a difference experience, then what it turned out to be.

Here's the same ole excuse I have heard repeatedly, 'then don't pug", don't level any alts, pay to not play a game, that makes sense, I came up with a better one and just don't play at all any more.


I don't really disagree with you that it seems silly that a new player's first experience with raiding should be whatever the highest available tier of content is. I mean, you don't introduce a 9th grader to math by saying "This is Calculus; pay attention and keep up with the rest of the class or we're going to yell at you".

Of course the problem is that many people do not want to redo old raids when they're on current tier content, not unlike how in FFXI, you might find yourself doing Salvage and Nyzul, but ALSO sea and ALSO sky and ALSO Dynamis. Wherease the content and the gear has a short expiration date in WoW, it never had one in XI. Two totally different systems and it would make sense that anyone who prefers one of the systems might not like the other as much.

I personally feel like I would have liked WoW better if had kept raid progression going where a new alt goes from Heroics to Naxx > Uld > ToC > IC but I'd even have been fine with at least doing one or two steps prior before going from Heroics straight to the highest tier raid, potentially with no raiding experience whatsoever if we're talking about a new character and not an alt. That's the problem; if it's your third or fourth 80, you really don't want to redo Naxx, Uld, and ToC again to get to IC, but a new player could really benefit from at least doing Naxx or Uld before IC, just to get a feel for how not to be a total dumbass in a group larger than 5.

I'm sure people will disagree with me on this point, but that's just how -I- feel.

Jefro420 wrote:
Mik, I'm not going to disagree and say the leve system is perfect. Let me be perfectly clear, I know that leves are about all this game has to offer right now to the non-crafter. Obviously the earlier leves could use some more variety. In fact there is absolutely no need for BRs until the r40 leves, you could easily push 1 to win all the way to r33. But to make an over-arching statement that the leve system is crap is going to far.

What SE needs to do to improve the system is make BRs and incapacitation essential on earlier leves. Rank 20 leves would probably be better. We need more faction leves, and easier access to them. Maybe more interactions with NPCs during leves, and leves with cut-scenes or instances would be great too. All of which is totally doable within the current system.

I don't think the leve system can be tossed out as inherently un-fun, but it's definitely incomplete.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 10:23am by Jefro420


In some games, I think that the combat is boring and in other games I think that the combat is fun. I can't really put my finger on how or why. Like, I enjoy combat in WoW more than combat in XIV, but I enjoy combat in XI more than combat in WoW. I enjoy FFXIV's combat more than FF13, I enjoy combat in FF12 more than in 13, but I enjoy combat in .hack more than FF12, and Star Ocean TTEOT more than .hack.

I can't really come up with a reason for why I find some combat systems fun and others boring any more than I could explain why I like clams but not broccoli, fried chicken rather than grilled chicken, or pepsi rather than coke.

I'm not sure what it is, specifically about FFXIV that I find unfun, but for some reason, I just do. I've been looking forward to the game for so long and I really -want- to WANT to play FFXIV, but whenever I try to log on, between the time I launch the program and the time I select my character, I find myself already getting bored and wanting to play something else instead.
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#142 Jan 06 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In some games, I think that the combat is boring and in other games I think that the combat is fun. I can't really put my finger on how or why. Like, I enjoy combat in WoW more than combat in XIV, but I enjoy combat in XI more than combat in WoW. I enjoy FFXIV's combat more than FF13, I enjoy combat in FF12 more than in 13, but I enjoy combat in .hack more than FF12, and Star Ocean TTEOT more than .hack.

I can't really come up with a reason for why I find some combat systems fun and others boring any more than I could explain why I like clams but not broccoli, fried chicken rather than grilled chicken, or pepsi rather than coke.

I'm not sure what it is, specifically about FFXIV that I find unfun, but for some reason, I just do. I've been looking forward to the game for so long and I really -want- to WANT to play FFXIV, but whenever I try to log on, between the time I launch the program and the time I select my character, I find myself already getting bored and wanting to play something else instead.

I'm going to take a guess here and say that the combat is boring because you have all these skills from ranking up and no reason to use them. For most leves and all behests before r40, especially when set on too few stars, you just need to bash the mobs a few times with whatever skill until you win. Indeed, that's boring as ****. But when you need to use BRs and incapacitation it brings some skill and strategy into the fights. Strategic battles are inherently more fun than button mashing, you have to admit.
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#143 Jan 06 2011 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In some games, I think that the combat is boring and in other games I think that the combat is fun. I can't really put my finger on how or why. Like, I enjoy combat in WoW more than combat in XIV, but I enjoy combat in XI more than combat in WoW. I enjoy FFXIV's combat more than FF13, I enjoy combat in FF12 more than in 13, but I enjoy combat in .hack more than FF12, and Star Ocean TTEOT more than .hack.

I can't really come up with a reason for why I find some combat systems fun and others boring any more than I could explain why I like clams but not broccoli, fried chicken rather than grilled chicken, or pepsi rather than coke.

I'm not sure what it is, specifically about FFXIV that I find unfun, but for some reason, I just do. I've been looking forward to the game for so long and I really -want- to WANT to play FFXIV, but whenever I try to log on, between the time I launch the program and the time I select my character, I find myself already getting bored and wanting to play something else instead.

I'm going to take a guess here and say that the combat is boring because you have all these skills from ranking up and no reason to use them. For most leves and all behests before r40, especially when set on too few stars, you just need to bash the mobs a few times with whatever skill until you win. Indeed, that's boring as sh*t. But when you need to use BRs and incapacitation it brings some skill and strategy into the fights. Strategic battles are inherently more fun than button mashing, you have to admit.


This is true. I've tried Battle Regimens but never could figure out how they work, and the mob is usually dead too fast to get it to work.
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#144 Jan 06 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

This is true. I've tried Battle Regimens but never could figure out how they work, and the mob is usually dead too fast to get it to work.

I'm not sure when they changed it, but I think they snuck changes into one of the more recent updates. BRs are fairly simple now. The first person starts the BR and stacks an action, then a pink icon appears obove the mobs name and next to the persons name in the party list that started the BR along with anyone else who stacked an action. Once a few actions are stacked, the person who started the BR hits G, and boom, the chain starts. Previously, there was no way to tell when someone had started a BR except via the animation, which as we know don't always happen when they should.

I find BRs to be a vast improvement over skill chains from XI since timing is much less of an issue. For some mobs like wolves on r40 leves, you can't beat them (at least I haven't been able to at r34) unless you incapacitate them so they can't fully heal themselves. BRs increase the chances of incapacitating mobs via weapon skills.

It'd be much better if BRs, as a core mechanic of the battle system, were necessary earlier or could even be done early on as you have pointed out.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 1:06pm by Jefro420
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#145 Jan 06 2011 at 12:05 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

This is true. I've tried Battle Regimens but never could figure out how they work, and the mob is usually dead too fast to get it to work.

I'm not sure when they changed it, but I think they snuck changes into one of the more recent updates. BRs are fairly simple now. The first person starts the BR and stacks an action, then a pink icon appears obove the mobs name and next to the persons name in the party list that started the BR along with anyone else who stacked an action. Once a few actions are stacked, the person who started the BR hits G, and boom, the chain starts. Previously, there was no way to tell when someone had started a BR except via the animation, which as we know don't always happen when they should.


I'll have to try it again, I didn't know changes were made to regimens.
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#146 Jan 06 2011 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Battle regimen how-to video incoming by Mog in the next day or 2, keep an eye out ^^
#147 Jan 06 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest and IMO only problem is...the whole industry, not just videogames, is not developing or doing anything to cater towards a certain group of people(which they should), but to cater ALL and EVERYONE that breaths.

The whole ******* industry got big, because of these so called "special groups of people" who made it big...for example I'm one of them...I play videogames for 21 years now...I started with the Atari 2600(or was it 2800?)
I can't even remember how many ****** games I bought, because there was no way to distinctively know which game is good and which isn't...I was going by the package...or my mother just bought me something back in the day...BUT no matter how bad a game was...I was always playing it...I never threw it in a backcorner and let it rot(cause back in the day I was happy about every **** game I got, cause it might be the only for 2-3 months)...I played every ******* game I ever got/owned, it didn't matter how ****** the game was...to me it only mattered that I like to play videogames, so I did.

The only thing a person can do is deal with it...cause thats just how the world is...I lost my sense of "hope for the world" a long time ago. Times change, so do the people. Nowadays it's all about profit. Earning the most possible amount of money with the least amount of effort/production costs. The entertainment industry wasn't about catering each and every **** person on the planet, it was about catering that certain group of people, that enjoy the things they develop. But you can earn a lot more money, if you get 2-3 times the amount of people to buy your ****, so what do you do? Make your stuff more appealing to a broader audience, which usually ends up in disappointing the "core group" but satisfieing the masses.

I on my end think that FFXIV got released way too soon...I actually never thought it would really come out in September 2010...but it did...and we all know what happened. BUT...and thats a BIG BUT! I rather see the game being ****** at start and develop into something great and good over time that caters towards a special group of people, rather then having a mediocre game at start and staying mediocre cause all it does is cater towards everyone that plays it, which will satisfy most, but not really make it special or unique at all.

I have mixed feelings about all the people that left for good...cause all the people that left FFXIV and never intend to come back, are that kind of people that want to be satisfied by mediocrity and those are the people I want to avoid anyway. Those people who are not satisfied but are willing to give the game another chance at a later date, are completely welcomed by me. I'm still playing cause I know this game WILL be a **** good game in the future. I still got people to play with and they share my opinion and that's all I need right now to have fun in FFXIV.
IF the game will never really develop to something that I would say is "enough for me" to play it, I will quit as well...but I'm willing to wait til that moment comes. But I'm more than certain, that once the game is well rounded, the content is there, the world and lore is more involving you as a character, the game will be a blast for me.

Tirion Crey
(Istory)
#148 Jan 06 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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322 posts
You're absolutely correct Shezard.

As soon as the industry begun to hit the mainstream it has sucked more and more.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is detrimental for almost anything.

How about this?

Think about how smart the average person is. Now realize 50% of the world are stupider than the average person.

Now you can cry.
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#149 Jan 06 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
tylerbee wrote:
You're absolutely correct Shezard.

As soon as the industry begun to hit the mainstream it has sucked more and more.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is detrimental for almost anything.

How about this?

Think about how smart the average person is. Now realize 50% of the world are stupider than the average person.

Now you can cry.


After having worked retail for two years and computer telephone support for another two, I'd wager that 90% of the world are dumber than the average person.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#150 Jan 06 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
88 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
You're absolutely correct Shezard.

As soon as the industry begun to hit the mainstream it has sucked more and more.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is detrimental for almost anything.

How about this?

Think about how smart the average person is. Now realize 50% of the world are stupider than the average person.

Now you can cry.


After having worked retail for two years and computer telephone support for another two, I'd wager that 90% of the world are dumber than the average person.


/facepalm
____________________________


DaevaofWar.com
#151 Jan 06 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,539 posts
Tankue wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
You're absolutely correct Shezard.

As soon as the industry begun to hit the mainstream it has sucked more and more.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is detrimental for almost anything.

How about this?

Think about how smart the average person is. Now realize 50% of the world are stupider than the average person.

Now you can cry.


After having worked retail for two years and computer telephone support for another two, I'd wager that 90% of the world are dumber than the average person.


/facepalm


Spoiler: It was a joke. Sarcasm.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
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