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#152 Jan 06 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Where has this thread gone!

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 3:49pm by DoctorMog
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#153 Jan 06 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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LOL @ WoW being "perfect". Probably coming from someone who never experienced end-game and how pointless it was, expansion after expansion. Or just a fanboy trying to say he's not.

I enjoyed WoW. Played it for 6 years. It sure as **** wasn't perfect. Actually, the closest it came to "perfect" was around patch 1.7 and 1.8. The quality of the game just steadily declines after that.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 3:54pm by SoumaKyou
#154 Jan 06 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
You're absolutely correct Shezard.

As soon as the industry begun to hit the mainstream it has sucked more and more.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is detrimental for almost anything.

How about this?

Think about how smart the average person is. Now realize 50% of the world are stupider than the average person.

Now you can cry.


After having worked retail for two years and computer telephone support for another two, I'd wager that 90% of the world are dumber than the average person.


I've worked retail three years and call centre four years so I totally understand your pain. It is actually horribly demotivating working in those places because of the bottom feeding trash you have to deal with.

Anyway, after doing so you can understand how much it opens your eyes to just how pathetic most of the human race really is.
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#155 Jan 06 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
The biggest and IMO only problem is...the whole industry, not just videogames, is not developing or doing anything to cater towards a certain group of people(which they should), but to cater ALL and EVERYONE that breaths.

The whole @#%^ing industry got big, because of these so called "special groups of people" who made it big...for example I'm one of them...I play videogames for 21 years now...I started with the Atari 2600(or was it 2800?)
I can't even remember how many sh*tty games I bought, because there was no way to distinctively know which game is good and which isn't...I was going by the package...or my mother just bought me something back in the day...BUT no matter how bad a game was...I was always playing it...I never threw it in a backcorner and let it rot(cause back in the day I was happy about every **** game I got, cause it might be the only for 2-3 months)...I played every @#%^ing game I ever got/owned, it didn't matter how sh*tty the game was...to me it only mattered that I like to play videogames, so I did.

The only thing a person can do is deal with it...cause thats just how the world is...I lost my sense of "hope for the world" a long time ago. Times change, so do the people. Nowadays it's all about profit. Earning the most possible amount of money with the least amount of effort/production costs. The entertainment industry wasn't about catering each and every **** person on the planet, it was about catering that certain group of people, that enjoy the things they develop. But you can earn a lot more money, if you get 2-3 times the amount of people to buy your sh*t, so what do you do? Make your stuff more appealing to a broader audience, which usually ends up in disappointing the "core group" but satisfieing the masses.

I on my end think that FFXIV got released way too soon...I actually never thought it would really come out in September 2010...but it did...and we all know what happened. BUT...and thats a BIG BUT! I rather see the game being sh*tty at start and develop into something great and good over time that caters towards a special group of people, rather then having a mediocre game at start and staying mediocre cause all it does is cater towards everyone that plays it, which will satisfy most, but not really make it special or unique at all.

I have mixed feelings about all the people that left for good...cause all the people that left FFXIV and never intend to come back, are that kind of people that want to be satisfied by mediocrity and those are the people I want to avoid anyway. Those people who are not satisfied but are willing to give the game another chance at a later date, are completely welcomed by me. I'm still playing cause I know this game WILL be a **** good game in the future. I still got people to play with and they share my opinion and that's all I need right now to have fun in FFXIV.
IF the game will never really develop to something that I would say is "enough for me" to play it, I will quit as well...but I'm willing to wait til that moment comes. But I'm more than certain, that once the game is well rounded, the content is there, the world and lore is more involving you as a character, the game will be a blast for me.

Tirion Crey
(Istory)


Lmao! So by leaving a mediocre game, with a mediocre release and in a mediocre state they proved to you they are the type of people that would be satisfied with mediocrity ?

What do you call the people that stayed ?
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#156 Jan 06 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Content? XD
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#157 Jan 06 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
Content? XD


I had to read this post like five times before I realized it was content as in "happy" and not content as in "things to do". It didn't make sense at all the first way.
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#158 Jan 06 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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lol
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#159 Jan 06 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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You defiantly were not the only one.

People are screaming so much for content that the idea that someone could be content with the game isn't the first thing to come to mind when the spelling of both meanings is used.
#160 Jan 06 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Content? XD


I had to read this post like five times before I realized it was content as in "happy" and not content as in "things to do". It didn't make sense at all the first way.


Same <.< i was thinking for a minute about what content he was referring to but then i remembered, there is none so it has to be the other content LOL!

BTW: How are the ones that leave MEDIOCRE and the ones that stay just content ...... specially when 98% of those that stayed state their reason is "The game will hopefully be fun eventually <.<
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#161 Jan 06 2011 at 6:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Tankue wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
You're absolutely correct Shezard.

As soon as the industry begun to hit the mainstream it has sucked more and more.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is detrimental for almost anything.

How about this?

Think about how smart the average person is. Now realize 50% of the world are stupider than the average person.

Now you can cry.


After having worked retail for two years and computer telephone support for another two, I'd wager that 90% of the world are dumber than the average person.


/facepalm


Spoiler: It was a joke. Sarcasm.


Having worked in a mall book store, from high school til a year ago, part and full time for 8.5 years, I'll go with the 90 percent.
Seriously.
It was scary some days.
#162 Jan 06 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vorkosigan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Tankue wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
You're absolutely correct Shezard.

As soon as the industry begun to hit the mainstream it has sucked more and more.

Catering to the lowest common denominator is detrimental for almost anything.

How about this?

Think about how smart the average person is. Now realize 50% of the world are stupider than the average person.

Now you can cry.


After having worked retail for two years and computer telephone support for another two, I'd wager that 90% of the world are dumber than the average person.


/facepalm


Spoiler: It was a joke. Sarcasm.


Having worked in a mall book store, from high school til a year ago, part and full time for 8.5 years, I'll go with the 90 percent.
Seriously.
It was scary some days.


You get this a lot in service industries.. Smart people don't need your help
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#163 Jan 07 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Shezard wrote:
The biggest and IMO only problem is...the whole industry, not just videogames, is not developing or doing anything to cater towards a certain group of people(which they should), but to cater ALL and EVERYONE that breaths.

The whole @#%^ing industry got big, because of these so called "special groups of people" who made it big...for example I'm one of them...I play videogames for 21 years now...I started with the Atari 2600(or was it 2800?)
I can't even remember how many sh*tty games I bought, because there was no way to distinctively know which game is good and which isn't...I was going by the package...or my mother just bought me something back in the day...BUT no matter how bad a game was...I was always playing it...I never threw it in a backcorner and let it rot(cause back in the day I was happy about every **** game I got, cause it might be the only for 2-3 months)...I played every @#%^ing game I ever got/owned, it didn't matter how sh*tty the game was...to me it only mattered that I like to play videogames, so I did.

The only thing a person can do is deal with it...cause thats just how the world is...I lost my sense of "hope for the world" a long time ago. Times change, so do the people. Nowadays it's all about profit. Earning the most possible amount of money with the least amount of effort/production costs. The entertainment industry wasn't about catering each and every **** person on the planet, it was about catering that certain group of people, that enjoy the things they develop. But you can earn a lot more money, if you get 2-3 times the amount of people to buy your sh*t, so what do you do? Make your stuff more appealing to a broader audience, which usually ends up in disappointing the "core group" but satisfieing the masses.

I on my end think that FFXIV got released way too soon...I actually never thought it would really come out in September 2010...but it did...and we all know what happened. BUT...and thats a BIG BUT! !!!!!I rather see the game being sh*tty at start and develop into something great and good!!!!!! over time that caters towards a special group of people, !!!!!rather then having a mediocre game at start and staying mediocre!!!!! cause all it does is cater towards everyone that plays it, which will satisfy most, but not really make it special or unique at all.

I have mixed feelings about all the people that left for good...cause all the people that left FFXIV and !!!!!!!never intend to come back!!!!!!, are that kind of people that want to be satisfied by mediocrity and those are the people I want to avoid anyway. Those people who are not satisfied but are willing to give the game another chance at a later date, are completely welcomed by me. I'm still playing cause I know this game WILL be a **** good game in the future. I still got people to play with and they share my opinion and that's all I need right now to have fun in FFXIV.
IF the game will never really develop to something that I would say is "enough for me" to play it, I will quit as well...but I'm willing to wait til that moment comes. But I'm more than certain, that once the game is well rounded, the content is there, the world and lore is more involving you as a character, the game will be a blast for me.

Tirion Crey
(Istory)


Lmao! So by leaving a mediocre game, with a mediocre release and in a mediocre state they proved to you they are the type of people that would be satisfied with mediocrity ?

What do you call the people that stayed ?


I love how people just skip the important parts...I marked it for you, so you might understand where I'm coming from.
FFXIV isn't in a mediocre state...its in a terrible state to speak overall...but the @#%^ing potential is **** huge.
People rather have a mediocre game that works but never becomes "great or special", than have a game that has its flaws but has the potential to become something really great and special. And as I said...if FFXIV never makes use of that potential, I'm gonna quit as well, but right now, I'm still having fun, I still have people to play with and I'm willing to wait for the game to use its potential.

PS: I'm willing to join in on the 90% thing...


Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:15am by Shezard

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:17am by Shezard
#164 Jan 07 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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Most people rate themselves as above average, though as we know, that can't be the case.

Just something to think about!
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#165 Jan 07 2011 at 1:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Shezard wrote:
The biggest and IMO only problem is...the whole industry, not just videogames, is not developing or doing anything to cater towards a certain group of people(which they should), but to cater ALL and EVERYONE that breaths.

The whole @#%^ing industry got big, because of these so called "special groups of people" who made it big...for example I'm one of them...I play videogames for 21 years now...I started with the Atari 2600(or was it 2800?)
I can't even remember how many sh*tty games I bought, because there was no way to distinctively know which game is good and which isn't...I was going by the package...or my mother just bought me something back in the day...BUT no matter how bad a game was...I was always playing it...I never threw it in a backcorner and let it rot(cause back in the day I was happy about every **** game I got, cause it might be the only for 2-3 months)...I played every @#%^ing game I ever got/owned, it didn't matter how sh*tty the game was...to me it only mattered that I like to play videogames, so I did.

The only thing a person can do is deal with it...cause thats just how the world is...I lost my sense of "hope for the world" a long time ago. Times change, so do the people. Nowadays it's all about profit. Earning the most possible amount of money with the least amount of effort/production costs. The entertainment industry wasn't about catering each and every **** person on the planet, it was about catering that certain group of people, that enjoy the things they develop. But you can earn a lot more money, if you get 2-3 times the amount of people to buy your sh*t, so what do you do? Make your stuff more appealing to a broader audience, which usually ends up in disappointing the "core group" but satisfieing the masses.

I on my end think that FFXIV got released way too soon...I actually never thought it would really come out in September 2010...but it did...and we all know what happened. BUT...and thats a BIG BUT! !!!!!I rather see the game being sh*tty at start and develop into something great and good!!!!!! over time that caters towards a special group of people, !!!!!rather then having a mediocre game at start and staying mediocre!!!!! cause all it does is cater towards everyone that plays it, which will satisfy most, but not really make it special or unique at all.

I have mixed feelings about all the people that left for good...cause all the people that left FFXIV and !!!!!!!never intend to come back!!!!!!, are that kind of people that want to be satisfied by mediocrity and those are the people I want to avoid anyway. Those people who are not satisfied but are willing to give the game another chance at a later date, are completely welcomed by me. I'm still playing cause I know this game WILL be a **** good game in the future. I still got people to play with and they share my opinion and that's all I need right now to have fun in FFXIV.
IF the game will never really develop to something that I would say is "enough for me" to play it, I will quit as well...but I'm willing to wait til that moment comes. But I'm more than certain, that once the game is well rounded, the content is there, the world and lore is more involving you as a character, the game will be a blast for me.

Tirion Crey
(Istory)


Lmao! So by leaving a mediocre game, with a mediocre release and in a mediocre state they proved to you they are the type of people that would be satisfied with mediocrity ?

What do you call the people that stayed ?


I love how people just skip the important parts...I marked it for you, so you might understand where I'm coming from.
FFXIV isn't in a mediocre state...its in a terrible state to speak overall...but the @#%^ing potential is **** huge.
People rather have a mediocre game that works but never becomes "great or special", than have a game that has its flaws but has the potential to become something really great and special. And as I said...if FFXIV never makes use of that potential, I'm gonna quit as well, but right now, I'm still having fun, I still have people to play with and I'm willing to wait for the game to use its potential.

PS: I'm willing to join in on the 90% thing...


Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:15am by Shezard

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:17am by Shezard


Ah the potential excuse ....
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#166 Jan 07 2011 at 1:51 AM Rating: Good
DoctorMog wrote:
Where has this thread gone!


You created a monster! Now you have to live with the consequences...
#167 Jan 07 2011 at 6:32 AM Rating: Decent
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"Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned / Nor **** a fury like a (woman/gamer) scorned." In other words with some people you just won't get another chance. So don't even try to fix it. Nope that's it....I'm outta here...no don't beg me....nothing you do or say will ever matter....you had your chance and you blew it. So until SE sticks a fork in FF XIV themselves,I'm willing to hang around for a while to see what results.
#168 Jan 07 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
Shezard wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Shezard wrote:
The biggest and IMO only problem is...the whole industry, not just videogames, is not developing or doing anything to cater towards a certain group of people(which they should), but to cater ALL and EVERYONE that breaths.

The whole @#%^ing industry got big, because of these so called "special groups of people" who made it big...for example I'm one of them...I play videogames for 21 years now...I started with the Atari 2600(or was it 2800?)
I can't even remember how many sh*tty games I bought, because there was no way to distinctively know which game is good and which isn't...I was going by the package...or my mother just bought me something back in the day...BUT no matter how bad a game was...I was always playing it...I never threw it in a backcorner and let it rot(cause back in the day I was happy about every **** game I got, cause it might be the only for 2-3 months)...I played every @#%^ing game I ever got/owned, it didn't matter how sh*tty the game was...to me it only mattered that I like to play videogames, so I did.

The only thing a person can do is deal with it...cause thats just how the world is...I lost my sense of "hope for the world" a long time ago. Times change, so do the people. Nowadays it's all about profit. Earning the most possible amount of money with the least amount of effort/production costs. The entertainment industry wasn't about catering each and every **** person on the planet, it was about catering that certain group of people, that enjoy the things they develop. But you can earn a lot more money, if you get 2-3 times the amount of people to buy your sh*t, so what do you do? Make your stuff more appealing to a broader audience, which usually ends up in disappointing the "core group" but satisfieing the masses.

I on my end think that FFXIV got released way too soon...I actually never thought it would really come out in September 2010...but it did...and we all know what happened. BUT...and thats a BIG BUT! !!!!!I rather see the game being sh*tty at start and develop into something great and good!!!!!! over time that caters towards a special group of people, !!!!!rather then having a mediocre game at start and staying mediocre!!!!! cause all it does is cater towards everyone that plays it, which will satisfy most, but not really make it special or unique at all.

I have mixed feelings about all the people that left for good...cause all the people that left FFXIV and !!!!!!!never intend to come back!!!!!!, are that kind of people that want to be satisfied by mediocrity and those are the people I want to avoid anyway. Those people who are not satisfied but are willing to give the game another chance at a later date, are completely welcomed by me. I'm still playing cause I know this game WILL be a **** good game in the future. I still got people to play with and they share my opinion and that's all I need right now to have fun in FFXIV.
IF the game will never really develop to something that I would say is "enough for me" to play it, I will quit as well...but I'm willing to wait til that moment comes. But I'm more than certain, that once the game is well rounded, the content is there, the world and lore is more involving you as a character, the game will be a blast for me.

Tirion Crey
(Istory)


Lmao! So by leaving a mediocre game, with a mediocre release and in a mediocre state they proved to you they are the type of people that would be satisfied with mediocrity ?

What do you call the people that stayed ?


I love how people just skip the important parts...I marked it for you, so you might understand where I'm coming from.
FFXIV isn't in a mediocre state...its in a terrible state to speak overall...but the @#%^ing potential is **** huge.
People rather have a mediocre game that works but never becomes "great or special", than have a game that has its flaws but has the potential to become something really great and special. And as I said...if FFXIV never makes use of that potential, I'm gonna quit as well, but right now, I'm still having fun, I still have people to play with and I'm willing to wait for the game to use its potential.

PS: I'm willing to join in on the 90% thing...


Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:15am by Shezard

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:17am by Shezard


Ah the potential excuse ....


Excuse for your inability to read my post and comment on it in a proper way?
#169 Jan 07 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Most people rate themselves as above average, though as we know, that can't be the case.

Just something to think about!


Exactly. It really urks me when people start claiming they're superior in some way to the majority of others.

I always think of this video when I see this type of behavior.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y
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#170 Jan 07 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Invalice wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Most people rate themselves as above average, though as we know, that can't be the case.

Just something to think about!


Exactly. It really urks me when people start claiming they're superior in some way to the majority of others.

I always think of this video when I see this type of behaviour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y


What a brilliant video!

I now have something to refer to when people cause me to /facepalm... (which like a lot of you I expect is several times a day - especially in the workplace).

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 10:24am by boshed
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#171 Jan 07 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y

Amazing video. Thank you for sharing.
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#172 Jan 07 2011 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y

Amazing video. Thank you for sharing.


You're most welcome. It's always a pleasure to share often overlooked internet gems with others.

I know this is further off topic, and I apologize, but if you enjoy those types of videos you should also check out this youtuber

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup

They make similar videos and collaborate sometimes. They don't upload videos too often, but their work is high quality and very informative.
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Cooking Mule - 97.0 + 1 + Raw Fish Handling
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Clothcraft - 60.0 + Spinning
Woodworking - 60.0 + Lumberjack
Smithing - 60.0 + Sheeting
Boneworking - 60.0

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#173 Jan 07 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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The ironic part of that video is that the meaning of it is lost on the people who need to watch it.
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#174 Jan 07 2011 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
I am a bit scared for the future of MMO's because if the standard isn't met (which takes thousands of man hours just to accomplish) the game will be an instant flop. There will be a minimum *cost* just to get the basics, and companies without the funds wont even attempt it.


I don't think this will be an issue because there are always small companies and small MMOs starting up that are testing out new ideas.

Something doesn't have to be the "standard" to be accepted. It merely has to accomplish certain goals within the game while at the same time being fun.

And I definitely think there's still room for improvement. WoW basically nailed the "leveling treadmill" concept, but there's plenty of territory left to explore.

For example, there are very few games that have ever established a TRUE "living, breathing fantasy world". WoW doesn't meet this requirement in my mind because it's a stale, static, unchanging world where monsters simply stand around waiting for someone to kill them like fruit waiting to be plucked from a tree. How "real" of a fantasy world can it be if there's no actual danger or intrigue? The world should feel like it's out to GET you, and since it doesn't, it just winds up feeling like an e-Disney ride.

There's also nothing to do in WoW except move toward personal progress. If it doesn't involve you acquiring better gear or leveling a tradeskill, why do it?

Like I was saying, an MMO can succeed with non-standard methods, just so long as it's fun and not frustrating. A lot of aspects of FFXIV are still more frustrating than fun.
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#175 Jan 07 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
For example, there are very few games that have ever established a TRUE "living, breathing fantasy world". WoW doesn't meet this requirement in my mind because it's a stale, static, unchanging world where monsters simply stand around waiting for someone to kill them like fruit waiting to be plucked from a tree. How "real" of a fantasy world can it be if there's no actual danger or intrigue? The world should feel like it's out to GET you, and since it doesn't, it just winds up feeling like an e-Disney ride.


Some of the WotLK questlines do make the world feel more alive. If you've played WoW and haven't done so yet, I suggest doing the entire Wrathgate questline from beginning to end, as well as the Storm Peaks and Icecrown quest achievements (keep going and do ALL the quests; don't just stop at the achievement). They shouldn't be too challenging at 85, but they do lend a lot of feel to the world actually moving and changing.

Of course the downside is that the way they use phasing to accomplish this leads to a lot of people who can't see each other on the map, but it's one way to do it.

I agree with your assertion that the problem a lot of games have is that the world itself feels static; people never move, buildings never change, etc. The problem with changing the world just for you is one that WoW uncovered; when you change the world for one person and not for everyone, now you can't see any other players except the ones who are on the same phase of the map as you. It's hard to group up to save a hamlet when your friends aren't far enough in the story to know it's being attacked (or have already saved it and moved on).

If they can address that, then I'd love it.
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#176 Jan 07 2011 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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the only game that ive seen with a "true living breathing world" is sadly Champions Online

NPCs are literaly walking around the city, cars driving the streets, the people talk to each other with random conversations, and to you based on your achievments as you pass by them. Its truely is an amazing world.

Please note I am not talking about popularity of games with this, I know CO didnt start off well, and it is going f2p(which has nothing to do with how well its doing, but its model will profit more from f2p so i dont blame them)
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#177 Jan 07 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I always think of this video when I see this type of behaviour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y


Ah, thanks. I almost launched into an explanation of the Dunning-Kruger effect, but didn't really have the time. Rather than waste it, you shared a time-saver for the future. Appreciated.

Quote:
I know this is further off topic, and I apologize, but if you enjoy those types of videos you should also check out this youtuber

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup


Oh, I've seen a couple of those already, but didn't think to check the user for their other videos. Don't recall how compelling they actually were, but they held my interest for the duration at least.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 11:57am by Kachi
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#178 Jan 07 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Default
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415 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Some of the WotLK questlines do make the world feel more alive. If you've played WoW and haven't done so yet, I suggest doing the entire Wrathgate questline from beginning to end, as well as the Storm Peaks and Icecrown quest achievements (keep going and do ALL the quests; don't just stop at the achievement). They shouldn't be too challenging at 85, but they do lend a lot of feel to the world actually moving and changing.

The Wrathgate event didn't make the world feel alive. It was entertaining, but it still fit into the whole Disney feel of WoW. The Storm Peaks and Icecrown quests were just something to do to open up dailies so you could get money faster. I understand if you're new to WoW and think those were awe-inspiring events, but really... it's just more of the same.
#179 Jan 07 2011 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The ironic part of that video is that the meaning of it is lost on the people who need to watch it.


LMAO. This is so true. I was thinking the exact same thing to myself as I was watching it...
#180 Jan 07 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Some of the WotLK questlines do make the world feel more alive. If you've played WoW and haven't done so yet, I suggest doing the entire Wrathgate questline from beginning to end, as well as the Storm Peaks and Icecrown quest achievements (keep going and do ALL the quests; don't just stop at the achievement). They shouldn't be too challenging at 85, but they do lend a lot of feel to the world actually moving and changing.

The Wrathgate event didn't make the world feel alive. It was entertaining, but it still fit into the whole Disney feel of WoW. The Storm Peaks and Icecrown quests were just something to do to open up dailies so you could get money faster. I understand if you're new to WoW and think those were awe-inspiring events, but really... it's just more of the same.


The "Disney feel" comes from the cartoonish graphics, which certainly weren't going to be changed just for one expansion. I'm not a fan of them, but those quests were the closest you'll get to "alive" in a world in terms of seeing the world actively changing, unless you have a better MMORPG example where the world physically changes in appearance as part of a quest or mission?

I am not "new to WoW" and I never said they were awe inspiring, so I'm not sure where you got either of those comments from; and if you personally only ever looked at the quests in terms of "only doing them to open up dailies" and didn't actually pay attention to what the NPCs were saying and how the physical environment around you was being altered as you progressed, then I can see why you might not understand what I'm getting at; it's hard to understand when I'm pointing out the landmarks on the side of the road when your rebuttal is "I was just looking ahead of me the whole time". I wasn't trying to claim they were epic tales of heroism and bravery, the likes of which Beowulf or Dante's Divine Comedy should inspire to one day be like; I was simply pointing out that these quest chains are the biggest examples I'm personally aware of where an MMORPG world physically changes while you're doing quests. If you have a better example of where an MMORPG developer has designed a world that physically changes in appearance than the phasing examples I provided, then let's hear it.
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#181 Jan 07 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
For example, there are very few games that have ever established a TRUE "living, breathing fantasy world". WoW doesn't meet this requirement in my mind because it's a stale, static, unchanging world where monsters simply stand around waiting for someone to kill them like fruit waiting to be plucked from a tree. How "real" of a fantasy world can it be if there's no actual danger or intrigue? The world should feel like it's out to GET you, and since it doesn't, it just winds up feeling like an e-Disney ride.


Some of the WotLK questlines do make the world feel more alive. If you've played WoW and haven't done so yet, I suggest doing the entire Wrathgate questline from beginning to end, as well as the Storm Peaks and Icecrown quest achievements (keep going and do ALL the quests; don't just stop at the achievement). They shouldn't be too challenging at 85, but they do lend a lot of feel to the world actually moving and changing.

Of course the downside is that the way they use phasing to accomplish this leads to a lot of people who can't see each other on the map, but it's one way to do it.

I agree with your assertion that the problem a lot of games have is that the world itself feels static; people never move, buildings never change, etc. The problem with changing the world just for you is one that WoW uncovered; when you change the world for one person and not for everyone, now you can't see any other players except the ones who are on the same phase of the map as you. It's hard to group up to save a hamlet when your friends aren't far enough in the story to know it's being attacked (or have already saved it and moved on).

If they can address that, then I'd love it.


90% of cataclysm is like the wrathgate event, tho they still have the same problem with phasing, but atleast they are doing something different lol
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#182 Jan 07 2011 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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While phasing is definitely unique, and Blizz did an awesome job at implementing it, I feel it just doesn't have the same kind of immersion that the game once had. WoW before felt a lot more immersive because players made it feel immersive. Every single map used to be crowded with people. Now (or at least TBC and WotLK) you'd be lucky to find anyone outside of central cross-faction cities like Dalaran. With recent additions, people no longer have to step out into the world when they can access everything from town, including PVP and dungeons.

And I said IF you're new to it.
#183 Jan 07 2011 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:
While phasing is definitely unique, and Blizz did an awesome job at implementing it, I feel it just doesn't have the same kind of immersion that the game once had. WoW before felt a lot more immersive because players made it feel immersive. Every single map used to be crowded with people. Now (or at least TBC and WotLK) you'd be lucky to find anyone outside of central cross-faction cities like Dalaran. With recent additions, people no longer have to step out into the world when they can access everything from town, including PVP and dungeons.

And I said IF you're new to it.


And i agree with you :) One of the things i hate/love about wow is exactly that, but i dont belive is Wow's fault per say, i think is the community's fault, for example World pvp is doable, but people dont wanna do it, they rather sit in dalaran/oggrimar/stormwind and que in for battlegrounds as oposed to the good old days of world pvp.
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#184 Jan 07 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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415 posts
Ostia wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
While phasing is definitely unique, and Blizz did an awesome job at implementing it, I feel it just doesn't have the same kind of immersion that the game once had. WoW before felt a lot more immersive because players made it feel immersive. Every single map used to be crowded with people. Now (or at least TBC and WotLK) you'd be lucky to find anyone outside of central cross-faction cities like Dalaran. With recent additions, people no longer have to step out into the world when they can access everything from town, including PVP and dungeons.

And I said IF you're new to it.


And i agree with you :) One of the things i hate/love about wow is exactly that, but i dont belive is Wow's fault per say, i think is the community's fault, for example World pvp is doable, but people dont wanna do it, they rather sit in dalaran/oggrimar/stormwind and que in for battlegrounds as oposed to the good old days of world pvp.

It's both, really. Blizz wanted to cater to the masses, and it did just that. But it alienated those that loved what made it feel like an actual world, and now it feels like some glorified version of Guild Wars.
#185 Jan 07 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
While phasing is definitely unique, and Blizz did an awesome job at implementing it, I feel it just doesn't have the same kind of immersion that the game once had. WoW before felt a lot more immersive because players made it feel immersive. Every single map used to be crowded with people. Now (or at least TBC and WotLK) you'd be lucky to find anyone outside of central cross-faction cities like Dalaran. With recent additions, people no longer have to step out into the world when they can access everything from town, including PVP and dungeons.

And I said IF you're new to it.


And i agree with you :) One of the things i hate/love about wow is exactly that, but i dont belive is Wow's fault per say, i think is the community's fault, for example World pvp is doable, but people dont wanna do it, they rather sit in dalaran/oggrimar/stormwind and que in for battlegrounds as oposed to the good old days of world pvp.

It's both, really. Blizz wanted to cater to the masses, and it did just that. But it alienated those that loved what made it feel like an actual world, and now it feels like some glorified version of Guild Wars.


Yes, but what most people forget, is that world pvp is still doable as are all other forms of immersing yourself in the game as back in vanilla, people just chose not to, i dont think is blizzards duty to enforce a certain way of doing things, i'll give them credit that they have atleast in the last 2 expansions try to revive world pvp, by adding zones where you could do it, adding quest hubs in said areas, and pvp specific objectives, people just dint went for it.
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#186 Jan 07 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
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415 posts
Ostia wrote:
Yes, but what most people forget, is that world pvp is still doable as are all other forms of immersing yourself in the game as back in vanilla, people just chose not to, i dont think is blizzards duty to enforce a certain way of doing things, i'll give them credit that they have atleast in the last 2 expansions try to revive world pvp, by adding zones where you could do it, adding quest hubs in said areas, and pvp specific objectives, people just dint went for it.

That's because it's too little, too late. People hop into Battlegrounds and Arena because that's where the big rewards are. There are no major rewards for world PVP, so there's no real reason to do it. Blizzard killed PVP the moment they added Dishonorable Kills and Battlegrounds, and further beat the dead horse with Arena. There's nothing they can do to fix it without removing both.
#187 Jan 07 2011 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:
While phasing is definitely unique, and Blizz did an awesome job at implementing it, I feel it just doesn't have the same kind of immersion that the game once had. WoW before felt a lot more immersive because players made it feel immersive. Every single map used to be crowded with people. Now (or at least TBC and WotLK) you'd be lucky to find anyone outside of central cross-faction cities like Dalaran. With recent additions, people no longer have to step out into the world when they can access everything from town, including PVP and dungeons.

And I said IF you're new to it.


Fair enough. I think we see eye to eye here then.

TL;DR: for a game with "12 million players" it certainly doesn't FEEL like it has 12 million players. For my money, FFXI's inglorious little "500k" always seemed to feel more populated to me, but that could be perception bias.

SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Yes, but what most people forget, is that world pvp is still doable as are all other forms of immersing yourself in the game as back in vanilla, people just chose not to, i dont think is blizzards duty to enforce a certain way of doing things, i'll give them credit that they have atleast in the last 2 expansions try to revive world pvp, by adding zones where you could do it, adding quest hubs in said areas, and pvp specific objectives, people just dint went for it.

That's because it's too little, too late. People hop into Battlegrounds and Arena because that's where the big rewards are. There are no major rewards for world PVP, so there's no real reason to do it. Blizzard killed PVP the moment they added Dishonorable Kills and Battlegrounds, and further beat the dead horse with Arena. There's nothing they can do to fix it without removing both.


I loathe PvP, but from a PvP standpoint, I can see where you're coming from. Were I so inclined to do world PvP, I would certainly have a tough time when everyone is holed up in the cities.
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#188 Jan 08 2011 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
While phasing is definitely unique, and Blizz did an awesome job at implementing it, I feel it just doesn't have the same kind of immersion that the game once had. WoW before felt a lot more immersive because players made it feel immersive. Every single map used to be crowded with people. Now (or at least TBC and WotLK) you'd be lucky to find anyone outside of central cross-faction cities like Dalaran. With recent additions, people no longer have to step out into the world when they can access everything from town, including PVP and dungeons.

And I said IF you're new to it.


Fair enough. I think we see eye to eye here then.

TL;DR: for a game with "12 million players" it certainly doesn't FEEL like it has 12 million players. For my money, FFXI's inglorious little "500k" always seemed to feel more populated to me, but that could be perception bias.

SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Yes, but what most people forget, is that world pvp is still doable as are all other forms of immersing yourself in the game as back in vanilla, people just chose not to, i dont think is blizzards duty to enforce a certain way of doing things, i'll give them credit that they have atleast in the last 2 expansions try to revive world pvp, by adding zones where you could do it, adding quest hubs in said areas, and pvp specific objectives, people just dint went for it.

That's because it's too little, too late. People hop into Battlegrounds and Arena because that's where the big rewards are. There are no major rewards for world PVP, so there's no real reason to do it. Blizzard killed PVP the moment they added Dishonorable Kills and Battlegrounds, and further beat the dead horse with Arena. There's nothing they can do to fix it without removing both.


I loathe PvP, but from a PvP standpoint, I can see where you're coming from. Were I so inclined to do world PvP, I would certainly have a tough time when everyone is holed up in the cities.


well for one, wow's number is based on accounts, and I know from their recruit a friend program, a % of people bought second accounts purely to level classes to 60 in a timely fashion. I won't say millions, but a number did.

the other thing I would say regarding WOW's numbers, was that they had like 25x the number of servers (some were near dead, I get that, but still).

As far as world pvp goes. I never cared for it. For every one time you had an awesome dual with someone in the world, you likely bullied 10 people into have a crappy time. I get that arena and battlegrounds put a point value to everything, which kinda ruined the 'purity' of the whole thing, but at least that was fair.
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#189 Jan 09 2011 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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My questions are these, and they are mostly rhetorical, something to ponder before you respond angrily or rashly.

Who sets the standards? Which player is correct?

We keep throwing around the word "standard" and "expectations" and "not satisfied." And I 100% understand the frustration. I really do. I can see the incomplete feeling that you all get when you ran out into the world and noticed the only thing truly available was the grind and a mission every five levels or so.

But lets define standard.
Standard - something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.

Now while the general majority says, "Not good enough!" They all have different reasons for the game not being their "standard" so-to-speak.

We yell about the grind. It's FF, it's always a grind. That one you're going to have to let go. From FF1 to now. You have grinded every single game. Is it long? Yes. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it repetitive? Yes. It's Final Fantasy. If you did not grasp that it was going to be that way, you have never played an FF game in your life.

We all set personal standards. We ALL had personal hopes for this game. But personal is personal. We are all different kinds of consumers. As stated previously: hardcores, casuals, crafters, parents, working people. We all wanted something different. And a lot of them were not delivered on. And why pay for a product that does not work? As I recall, the only money we spent was on the game itself. And we have not paid a single monthly charge, because Square-enix knows they botched up. They've changed leadership, added new content, ACTUALLY listened to player concerns. To expect a snap of the finger fix is absolutely absurd.

Did they release earlier than they should have? Yes, BUT we all know if they had pushed the release date, these forums would have buzzed with screams and yells about how we want the game now.

We as gamers, are spoiled. 100% spoiled. We demand and demand. We want something new, fresh, exciting. Pick up an action/adventure PS3 game. I promise you, in some way it is God of War. The most recent PS3 action/adventure PS3 game that blew me away was Demon Soul's. It was hard, challenging, complicated and I wanted to break my controller. I loved it.

Changing gears:
WoW. I've been playing WoW for a long time. Beta. The game has become stale. I went from 80-85 in about 2 days. The encounters are the same. The bosses are slightly tweeked. PvP is unbalanced, as always. And the players say, "Their demands aren't met." Just like here. Every game has it's consistent flaws. WoW has lost a HUGE player base. But they constantly patch and add things. Just like FFXIV is doing. Here's the difference, the way I see it. WoW is a glass that is full. All the changes, are minor tweeks. Little changes. Dump some liquid out, add some in. Change the size of the glass. This is easy as **** for developers. FFXIV is a brand new glass they just started filling with liquid. Takes a bit more effort. But there is so much room for improvement, new content, new directions that they can take the game. This takes much more effort. New code, new designs. It's like designing a game again. (Which is what they are having to do.)

I guess in closing:
We are spoiled gamers who expect the world in an instant handed to us. (Figuratively speaking.) We set deadlines, expectations, even personal standards, and the game companies MUST satisfy our every individual, personal need. And that is not too much to ask, but we as consumers also need to realize that they are doing something. If they were sitting and just watching us as we spent 15 dollars a month. Yes, then there would be issues. But we haven't paid a dime. We bought the game. We paid for the glass. Let's give them some time to fill it.

Darkstrx
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#190 Jan 09 2011 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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All i know is, i realized i want fun enjoyable, enthralling gameplay. Not addictive, "when can i get the next shiny" gameplay.

And now XIV is fun again. Still needs lots of love from the devs. Desperately needs more content, and the battle system isn't quite there yet imo, but its **** close.

IF those two issues alone are addressed spectacularly, i will play this game for a long time, because i finally realized what kind of gamer i am. I prefer to enjoy the journey rather than make myself crazy going after the next carrot.

And thats why even though i am enjoying the rift beta, i still will probably not buy the game.

Its also why i now have this horrible feeling that SE really is gonna wipe the slate and rebuild the whole thing from the ground up. my brain tells me this is ridiculous and i mostly believe it.

edit:

oh, also, a word on game development and how it happens. Most companies these days, when they want to make a new game, start off by picking a genre or a game that they want to emulate. Rarely do big game companies start from scratch with a new idea. Its all, "what can we cannibalize/improve that's already on the market?"

And so we get slews of derivative games, derivatives of the derivatives, this horrible mountain of inbred crap. Hey Yoshida, lets see something new!



Edited, Jan 9th 2011 2:59am by Llester
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#191 Jan 09 2011 at 2:07 AM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
darkstrX wrote:
My questions are these, and they are mostly rhetorical, something to ponder before you respond angrily or rashly.

Who sets the standards? Which player is correct?

We keep throwing around the word "standard" and "expectations" and "not satisfied." And I 100% understand the frustration. I really do. I can see the incomplete feeling that you all get when you ran out into the world and noticed the only thing truly available was the grind and a mission every five levels or so.

But lets define standard.
Standard - something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.

Now while the general majority says, "Not good enough!" They all have different reasons for the game not being their "standard" so-to-speak.

We yell about the grind. It's FF, it's always a grind. That one you're going to have to let go. From FF1 to now. You have grinded every single game. Is it long? Yes. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it repetitive? Yes. It's Final Fantasy. If you did not grasp that it was going to be that way, you have never played an FF game in your life.

We all set personal standards. We ALL had personal hopes for this game. But personal is personal. We are all different kinds of consumers. As stated previously: hardcores, casuals, crafters, parents, working people. We all wanted something different. And a lot of them were not delivered on. And why pay for a product that does not work? As I recall, the only money we spent was on the game itself. And we have not paid a single monthly charge, because Square-enix knows they botched up. They've changed leadership, added new content, ACTUALLY listened to player concerns. To expect a snap of the finger fix is absolutely absurd.

Did they release earlier than they should have? Yes, BUT we all know if they had pushed the release date, these forums would have buzzed with screams and yells about how we want the game now.

We as gamers, are spoiled. 100% spoiled. We demand and demand. We want something new, fresh, exciting. Pick up an action/adventure PS3 game. I promise you, in some way it is God of War. The most recent PS3 action/adventure PS3 game that blew me away was Demon Soul's. It was hard, challenging, complicated and I wanted to break my controller. I loved it.

Changing gears:
WoW. I've been playing WoW for a long time. Beta. The game has become stale. I went from 80-85 in about 2 days. The encounters are the same. The bosses are slightly tweeked. PvP is unbalanced, as always. And the players say, "Their demands aren't met." Just like here. Every game has it's consistent flaws. WoW has lost a HUGE player base. But they constantly patch and add things. Just like FFXIV is doing. Here's the difference, the way I see it. WoW is a glass that is full. All the changes, are minor tweeks. Little changes. Dump some liquid out, add some in. Change the size of the glass. This is easy as **** for developers. FFXIV is a brand new glass they just started filling with liquid. Takes a bit more effort. But there is so much room for improvement, new content, new directions that they can take the game. This takes much more effort. New code, new designs. It's like designing a game again. (Which is what they are having to do.)

I guess in closing:
We are spoiled gamers who expect the world in an instant handed to us. (Figuratively speaking.) We set deadlines, expectations, even personal standards, and the game companies MUST satisfy our every individual, personal need. And that is not too much to ask, but we as consumers also need to realize that they are doing something. If they were sitting and just watching us as we spent 15 dollars a month. Yes, then there would be issues. But we haven't paid a dime. We bought the game. We paid for the glass. Let's give them some time to fill it.

Darkstrx


You started so nice, i was agreeing left and right, till you had to go to wow, then i was like ok, let's see, then "WOW has lost a HUGE player base" and i was like o.O ORLY? then the "I leveled up 5 levels in 2 day's" Erm! Because leveling up in wow is where is at right ? LOL!

Now i'm curious as to this Huge player base wow lost <.<
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#192 Jan 09 2011 at 2:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not to detract from the rest of your post, which was good, but...

darkstrX wrote:
If they were sitting and just watching us as we spent 15 dollars a month. Yes, then there would be issues. But we haven't paid a dime.


I don't know about you, but I spent about 1,500 dimes on two copies of the collector's edition.

Seriously, you make a lot of good points, but just because there's no monthly fee doesn't mean that a lot of long time Final Fantasy fans spent $75 on a Collector's Edition of a product and ended up with disappointment.

I'm hopeful and confident that the game -will- improve with time, but to say that "we haven't paid a dime" is terribly inaccurate. I paid $75 for a bottle of wine and ended up with half a glass of vinegar.
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#193 Jan 09 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
35 posts
Be careful when you argue for your limitations, you might just get to keep them!
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#194 Jan 09 2011 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,566 posts
darkstrX wrote:
We yell about the grind. It's FF, it's always a grind. That one you're going to have to let go. From FF1 to now. You have grinded every single game. Is it long? Yes. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it repetitive? Yes. It's Final Fantasy. If you did not grasp that it was going to be that way, you have never played an FF game in your life.


I don't think anyone has a problem with the grind, per se. It's just that it's a pointless grind. They gave us this unique method of designing our own characters, and a game that only requires you to use one or two main attacks and a weapon skill. If there were a reason to kill anything higher than green and blue mobs, then players could begin to define their own rolls in the party tactics and battle regimen usage.

Also, the story content is thin and the missions brief up to at least Rank 26. People get frustrated with how long it takes to rank up because it seems like the meat of the story is just around the corner, but it takes so long to get there.

If they'd just give us some other things with which to occupy ourselves, it wouldn't seem so bad.

And a final point on this one: people have realized that the grind doesn't end at Rank 50. For some players it may end when they have three or four classes at 50. For the general population, maybe one at 50, another at 40 and a few at 30. No matter how you look at it, though, that 1.7 million SP to get to Rank 50, dolled out at about 80-150 at a time, is just the beginning. A beginning that to some, is like climbing Mount Everest.

darkstrX wrote:
They've changed leadership, added new content, ACTUALLY listened to player concerns. To expect a snap of the finger fix is absolutely absurd.


No one is expecting an over night change. But a lot of what folks are frustrated with is that most of what they don't like about the retail version of the game is layered on top of issues SE was informed about vehemently since May 2010 and throughout the entire Beta process. Since they haven't been able to charge us money for this, yes, they've made some drastic improvements. But it's not like SE was caught unaware. They initially tried to stay the course, and it blew up on them.

darkstrX wrote:
Did they release earlier than they should have? Yes, BUT we all know if they had pushed the release date, these forums would have buzzed with screams and yells about how we want the game now.


In the early days of these boards, I think most people were hoping for a Dec. 2010 release and that was considered "too soon" by some conservative folks. So, yes, the September release came as a shock. I doubt anyone who played beta though, which was a large part of this board's population at the time, would have complained about a push back after what they had seen.

darkstrX wrote:
We are spoiled gamers who expect the world in an instant handed to us. (Figuratively speaking.) We set deadlines, expectations, even personal standards, and the game companies MUST satisfy our every individual, personal need. And that is not too much to ask, but we as consumers also need to realize that they are doing something. If they were sitting and just watching us as we spent 15 dollars a month. Yes, then there would be issues. But we haven't paid a dime. We bought the game. We paid for the glass. Let's give them some time to fill it.


I really disagree with the notion that gamers are "spoiled." We're consumers. Perhaps it can be argued that all consumers in the first world are spoiled, but that's not exclusive to gamers.

The thing is, as with movies, books, music; there's a standard. Each genre, each franchise, has a mark that it needs to shoot for if it wants to be considered "good." Granted you made the point that the finer details of standard are subject to personal perception, but there still is an overall agreeable bar that games need to meet if they want to be what SE was trying to make XIV be.

This doesn't necessarily mean that it has to innovate in any way. Look at the success of the recent side scrolling Mega Man games that were released on the Playstation Network. Capcom took the game to its roots and it worked. But players didn't have to pay for the game then wait for them to add the robots. If Capcom had done what SE did, players would have fought their way through levels just to get to an empty room at the end. Would it make those gamers "spoiled" to be upset if they were told "We'll be adding the boss robots in about three months"?

Fact is $50-75 is a lot of money these days. And Square-Enix has its own bar that it created through its own hard work. That is what got gamers, even those who were a little put off by the beta experience, to buy this game. The "It's an MMO, we need to wait" line is no excuse. Square Enix knew they were releasing a game into a saturated market. XIV doesn't need to be like XI, WoW or any other game. But it should have been designed to compete. Not released then fixed to possibly compete a year down the line. There is plenty of evidence that this model does not work and will send a game to an early grave.

I've said it in a few other posts and I'll echo it here. There are more game developers making more quality titles chipping away at the disposable income of a market with less and less time to dedicate to games. For anyone to think that a traditional MMO release can survive today's market is ludicrous. And to lambaste those who see enough potential that they stick around but remain vocal about the inadequacies is just a sign of fanboyism. We criticize because we care.

The age of hardcore is dead. If a developer is going to pour the kind of man hours and financial resources SE did into making XIV, MMO or not, it better be a Thoroughbred triple crown winner out of the gate. Gaming isn't a niche market anymore. Developers need to pull in new clientele.

darkstrX wrote:
The most recent PS3 action/adventure PS3 game that blew me away was Demon Soul's Demon's Souls. It was hard, challenging, complicated and I wanted to break my controller. I loved it.


Just wanted to point out that this speaks volumes about what kind of gamer you are. This game required folks to inch and crawl to become a better character. Each "level" was a single stat point. Then you had to go back and repeat everything you just did. Kill the same exact mobs in the same exact fashion to progress further. It should be noted that, in the almost two years since its release, this game has sold only about 500,000 units. This is an old school, hardcore game. The difference is it was billed as such, and was designed to make a profit off poor sales. Altus was surprised by its "success."

It's no surprise to me that someone who enjoyed Demon's Souls would be pleased with XIV in its current state. And content to wait for their glass to be filled.

As I've also said numerous times. There's nothing wrong with making a hardcore or classic game. Those making it just need to have it in their business plan that it's not going to sell like a Modern Warefare that caters to its players' every whim. Believe it or not, most people don't regard controller-destroying rage as "quality entertainment." Most people just want a good story and some interaction with other people.

#195 Jan 09 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If there were a reason to kill anything higher than green and blue mobs, then players could begin to define their own rolls in the party tactics and battle regimen usage.

The age of hardcore is dead.


This is contradictory. The whole point of casual is to make the game accessible, which is the opposite of what you're saying in the first sentence. With harder encounters comes more strict party+class tactics and set-ups, and less accessibility. It also clashes with this statement:

Quote:
Most people just want a good story and some interaction with other people.


The less accessible the content is, the less interaction with other people there will be for casuals. It also touches your point about controller-destroying rage, but sadly unlike with Demon's Souls, this time you have something/someone else to blame than just yourself.

It's not so simple.

Lastly, we are not spoiled- we are just lost. Less so than the developers, though, but we affect their decisions with our actions. It is too bad these projects are so expensive.
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Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#196 Jan 09 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
If there were a reason to kill anything higher than green and blue mobs, then players could begin to define their own rolls in the party tactics and battle regimen usage.

The age of hardcore is dead.


This is contradictory. The whole point of casual is to make the game accessible, which is the opposite of what you're saying in the first sentence. With harder encounters comes more strict party+class tactics and set-ups, and less accessibility. It also clashes with this statement:

Quote:
Most people just want a good story and some interaction with other people.


The less accessible the content is, the less interaction with other people there will be for casuals. It also touches your point about controller-destroying rage, but sadly unlike with Demon's Souls, this time you have something/someone else to blame than just yourself.

It's not so simple.

Lastly, we are not spoiled- we are just lost. Less so than the developers, though, but we affect their decisions with our actions. It is too bad these projects are so expensive.



There's nothing contradictory about what I said. You're just overextending my point.

I'd hate to self-promote more, but there was my idea about instanced behest that I posted in the feedback forums. Giving this something as simple as the star system used in Guildleves would allow the hardcore regimented minmaxers a separate experience from the casual "play-as-you-want" crowd under the same roof.

It is that simple.

With systems like that in place, players can experience fun, interactive gameplay with like-minded individuals and the "you must play this way" crowd can save it for Rank 50.
#197 Jan 09 2011 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
I'd hate to self-promote more, but there was my idea about instanced behest that I posted in the feedback forums. Giving this something as simple as the star system used in Guildleves would allow the hardcore regimented minmaxers a separate experience from the casual "play-as-you-want" crowd under the same roof.

It is that simple.


I don't really see how that addresses anything I said, or how it would differently over what we already have in place.

Secondly there are few reasons why I don't agree with your idea, but they don't belong in this thread.. I'll just post in that thread later.

FFXI had casuals and hardcore alike, but everything was min-maxed regardless. 2-3 person parties could get exp, you didn't always need 6 people, but who honestly did that? Everyone waited for those glorious 6 man parties because they gave the best exp. Nobody killed Qutrubs and detested Trolls because Colibri and Mamool Ja were better.

People want to play efficiently. This will ultimately ruin your plans that sound oh so good in concept. It is inferior content, nothing else. Especially when the grind is still suited for the high-end SP/Hour, meaning the hardcore experience.
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Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#198 Jan 09 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
[quote=DoctorMog]Imagine a child that only was ever given things they enjoy.
...
If you know you don't like 99.9%+ of country music, why would you ever turn the radio to a country music station? It just doesn't make sense, even if there are some country songs that you would like if you heard them.

We're talking about things that are meant to be enjoyed. Yes, there are other things you can get out of a video game/song/movie/books/etc, but at the end of the day, they're meant to be enjoyable. If you don't enjoy them, then you're missing the point of the entertainment industry.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:21am by ThePsychoticOne


On the other hand I didn't like classical music and didn't want to listen to it. One day I decided to force myself to keep listening to it because I figured there must be something to it if people still enjoy it after a hundred plus years. After a while I started to actually enjoy it and have built up quite a library of classical music. It requires some focus and knowledge to appreciate it but I'm certainly glad that I didn't just pass on it because I didn't like it at first.
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#199 Jan 09 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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TacoTaru wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
[quote=DoctorMog]Imagine a child that only was ever given things they enjoy.
...
If you know you don't like 99.9%+ of country music, why would you ever turn the radio to a country music station? It just doesn't make sense, even if there are some country songs that you would like if you heard them.

We're talking about things that are meant to be enjoyed. Yes, there are other things you can get out of a video game/song/movie/books/etc, but at the end of the day, they're meant to be enjoyable. If you don't enjoy them, then you're missing the point of the entertainment industry.

Edited, Jan 3rd 2011 2:21am by ThePsychoticOne


On the other hand I didn't like classical music and didn't want to listen to it. One day I decided to force myself to keep listening to it because I figured there must be something to it if people still enjoy it after a hundred plus years. After a while I started to actually enjoy it and have built up quite a library of classical music. It requires some focus and knowledge to appreciate it but I'm certainly glad that I didn't just pass on it because I didn't like it at first.


Yeah, but you didn't pay $75 for a Metallica CD and end up with Miley Cyrus. That's the problem; it's not that it's impossible to enjoy XIV; many people are. The issue is that it was billed to a certain crowd as a certain type of game and that group of people, SE's target audience, a group of people who have told SE over and over that it wasn't what they wanted, SE ignored those players, and now SE has been slowly losing those players since even -before- release.
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#200 Jan 11 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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I do enjoy reading the responses and I believe a lot of it is constructive and legitimate concerns and points. The only issue with forums is it is not like a conversation where you can go back and re-detail what you said before 8-9 people take it a different way than you intended.

The thing about casual and hardcore. FFXIV does allow for difficulty selection. Friends and I do 5 star levequests because they are **** near impossible. The SP/hr is not better, but it's more challenging, more fun to try to get that last second heal off. While lacking content, 50% is SE the other 50% is up to you to create your experience that you have with the game. Make it hard, make it easy, make a class that casts fire, then provokes, only to stab the mob with a lance.

As I've said, I don't have the "it's an mmo give it time" attitude. I have the "no matter what we as gamers would have been ************* But then again, I'm still waiting for Duke Nukem Forever. /endjoke.

For those of you who were excited about the initial announcement of Half Life 2. Do you remember how ****** you were every time it got pushed back. It was pushed for years. But we did end up getting a great innovative game. But in my honest opinion, I don't think the quality of that game outweighed the frustration of the gamers every time we heard "push back." So what I'm saying is Square-enix messed up. But at the same time they met a deadline, we still bought the game.

Not necessarily to combat or make your claims seem any less important. You chose to spend the 75 dollars on the collectors edition. All you got was a week head start and a silly hat. You could have spent the 50 and been fine. It still had the same (lack of) content. But Square did not have to allow us to play for free. For over 3 months now. 15 x 3 = 45. And I'm sure this is going to last a bit longer. Your game will be paid for and then some by lack of service fees. But I am not saying this cuts SE a break AT ALL. I'm saying that if you buy a game, any game. And it's trash, you cannot return it. Once a disc based game is open. The only thing you can get is a replacement CD or DVD that is the exact same thing.

So yes once again: Did we expect more? Absolutely. Out of SE we always expect the best. (Save FFX-2) And we still can. I'm telling you right now that I would bet my life on SE taking this game to a totally different unbelievable heights. FFXI and WoW were incomplete games on release. Lack of content and quests. Maybe not to this degree. But it was still hard on gamers.

I'm not attacking anyone just stating, what I feel are, valid concerns. And most of this is just food for thought. If you see something wrong with it address it. I'm not jumping on anyone or being a tool. My tone is very calm and wanting to talk. So I really don't want a "RABBLE RABBLE" response. I know a lot of things in text can be taken the wrong way.
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#201 Jan 11 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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darkstrX wrote:
So yes once again: Did we expect more? Absolutely. Out of SE we always expect the best. (Save FFX-2)


I love how most of the people who gripe about FF X-2 are too young to remember Mystic Quest. Smiley: laugh

Go get your hands on Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for SNES and play it. I defy you to tell me that FFX-2 was a worse game.

Granted, I liked MQ and I liked X-2, but I'm not normal.
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