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#202 Jan 11 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
darkstrX wrote:
So yes once again: Did we expect more? Absolutely. Out of SE we always expect the best. (Save FFX-2)


I love how most of the people who gripe about FF X-2 are too young to remember Mystic Quest. Smiley: laugh

Go get your hands on Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for SNES and play it. I defy you to tell me that FFX-2 was a worse game.

Granted, I liked MQ and I liked X-2, but I'm not normal.


i actualy liked mystic quest lol(but i can see why people didnt)
and i liked x-2 alot more then 12 or 13
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#203 Jan 11 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Vedis wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
darkstrX wrote:
So yes once again: Did we expect more? Absolutely. Out of SE we always expect the best. (Save FFX-2)


I love how most of the people who gripe about FF X-2 are too young to remember Mystic Quest. Smiley: laugh

Go get your hands on Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for SNES and play it. I defy you to tell me that FFX-2 was a worse game.

Granted, I liked MQ and I liked X-2, but I'm not normal.


i actualy liked mystic quest lol(but i can see why people didnt)
and i liked x-2 alot more then 12 or 13


I liked MQ but a lot of people felt it was too weak in terms of the story and the gameplay; that it was designed as an RPG for "people who aren't good at RPGs". It's different than the rest of the series, and I don't think it really feels like a FF game, but I think it was fun in its own right. I also liked Quest 64 and Spirits Within, so I accept that not everyone likes what I like :)

I liked X-2 more than 13, but 12 managed to dethrone 4 and 6 in terms of my "favorite Final Fantasy". 6 and 4 held the top two spots for years (in that order), but I love XII's battle system, world, and leveling system. The only think I didn't like about XII was how it felt that Basch and Ashe were the primary characters, Fran and Balthier were secondary characters, and Vaan and Penelo felt like they were ancillary characters who had very little to do with the story or world other than the fact that they lived in it. I can't think of another FF game where you could just as easily have taken the main character out, given their lines to someone else, and no one would be the wiser.

Aside from that, I liked 12.

Don't get me started on 13. I'll rant for like five pages again about how much I hated it.
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#204 Jan 11 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I love how most of the people who gripe about FF X-2 are too young to remember Mystic Quest. Smiley: laugh

Go get your hands on Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for SNES and play it. I defy you to tell me that FFX-2 was a worse game.

Granted, I liked MQ and I liked X-2, but I'm not normal.

I still have yet to have anyone provide a good argument as to why they think FF7 could ever be better than FF6 aside from the graphics. Nothing new. :P
#205 Jan 11 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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Now that we're sufficiently off topic, SE should make a polygonal version of FFVI with Crystal Tools.

The things I would do for a 3D Celes.
#206 Jan 11 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kierk wrote:
Now that we're sufficiently off topic, SE should make a polygonal version of FFVI with Crystal Tools.

The things I would do for a 3D Celes.


FF6 Tech Demo for N64. Enjoy :)
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#207 Jan 11 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Vedis wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
darkstrX wrote:
So yes once again: Did we expect more? Absolutely. Out of SE we always expect the best. (Save FFX-2)


I love how most of the people who gripe about FF X-2 are too young to remember Mystic Quest. Smiley: laugh

Go get your hands on Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for SNES and play it. I defy you to tell me that FFX-2 was a worse game.

Granted, I liked MQ and I liked X-2, but I'm not normal.


i actualy liked mystic quest lol(but i can see why people didnt)
and i liked x-2 alot more then 12 or 13


I liked MQ but a lot of people felt it was too weak in terms of the story and the gameplay; that it was designed as an RPG for "people who aren't good at RPGs". It's different than the rest of the series, and I don't think it really feels like a FF game, but I think it was fun in its own right. I also liked Quest 64 and Spirits Within, so I accept that not everyone likes what I like :)

I liked X-2 more than 13, but 12 managed to dethrone 4 and 6 in terms of my "favorite Final Fantasy". 6 and 4 held the top two spots for years (in that order), but I love XII's battle system, world, and leveling system. The only think I didn't like about XII was how it felt that Basch and Ashe were the primary characters, Fran and Balthier were secondary characters, and Vaan and Penelo felt like they were ancillary characters who had very little to do with the story or world other than the fact that they lived in it. I can't think of another FF game where you could just as easily have taken the main character out, given their lines to someone else, and no one would be the wiser.

Aside from that, I liked 12.

Don't get me started on 13. I'll rant for like five pages again about how much I hated it.


Basch was supposed to be the main character of that, until they backtracked into having yet another teenage guy as the main character. Vaan was pushed to the forefront at that point.
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#208 Jan 11 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Once again my words taken out of context. I didn't say FFX-2 was the worst game ever. There are plenty of bad FF games. Bad design quality, poor battle systems, etc. I loved MQ. It was one of the many games that I grew up on.
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#209 Jan 11 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
darkstrX wrote:
So yes once again: Did we expect more? Absolutely. Out of SE we always expect the best. (Save FFX-2)


I love how most of the people who gripe about FF X-2 are too young to remember Mystic Quest. Smiley: laugh

Go get your hands on Final Fantasy Mystic Quest for SNES and play it. I defy you to tell me that FFX-2 was a worse game.

Granted, I liked MQ and I liked X-2, but I'm not normal.


Hey! Dont you dare mess with MQ!!

That game was developed and targeted to introduce RPG'S to people that dint had an idea WTF they where, <.< FFX-2 on the other hand.....

BTW! I always expected a sequel to MQ giving the ending XD!
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#210 Jan 11 2011 at 10:16 PM Rating: Good
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How can people say X-2 was a bad game?

Story was not up to par, but everything else was quite top notch. Especially the turn based combat.
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#211 Jan 12 2011 at 1:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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People say X-2 was a bad game because they felt it was too girly, didn't like the way Yuna's personality changed, etc.-- I've never heard an actual strong, articulated argument against X-2. It was a good game if you could get over yourself long enough to enjoy it.

Quote:

I still have yet to have anyone provide a good argument as to why they think FF7 could ever be better than FF6 aside from the graphics. Nothing new. :P


The characters and world were generally better fleshed out. That's one of the things that just kind of goes with better graphics and technical capability-- they could do more with 4 CDs than with 1 cartridge, and they did. It wasn't just graphics.

6 and 7 were both amazing imo, though. I weep for people who don't see the greatness of both games.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#212 Jan 12 2011 at 4:50 AM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
People say X-2 was a bad game because they felt it was too girly, didn't like the way Yuna's personality changed, etc.-- I've never heard an actual strong, articulated argument against X-2. It was a good game if you could get over yourself long enough to enjoy it.

Quote:

I still have yet to have anyone provide a good argument as to why they think FF7 could ever be better than FF6 aside from the graphics. Nothing new. :P


The characters and world were generally better fleshed out. That's one of the things that just kind of goes with better graphics and technical capability-- they could do more with 4 CDs than with 1 cartridge, and they did. It wasn't just graphics.

6 and 7 were both amazing imo, though. I weep for people who don't see the greatness of both games.


The world ? Yes, the characters ? No just no.
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#213 Jan 12 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Back in the day when MQ just came out, it was still one of the best RPGs to get, despite the fact it had many flaws, but what else was there to play RPG-wise?

People saying MQ is a bad game, just didn't play it when it came out(or ignore how the situation was back then), cause at that time, there were not many RPGs that were way better.

About FFVII and VI...both were great FFs.

About FFX-2...the game wasn't bad because it was "too girly"...actually the game was pretty good gameplay-wise...the thing that made it bad...was the completely ignored potential behind several characters(almost all characters weren't given their potential, almost like all antagonists in FFXIII) and the fact that it is merely a poor Add-On with no substance to it. The **** story isn't even adding anything to the FFX experience.

But for me...FFX itself was pretty average compared to other RPGs...sure...it wasn't a terrible RPG or a terrible FF...but it was not as good as most of the FFs before that(except for 1-4)
#214 Jan 12 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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Let's just jump ahead to the inevitable. I'll go first with my personal preference, listing only titles I have personally played. Disclaimer: Just because a game is near the middle or end does not mean I'm saying I disliked it; just that I liked the ones above it more.

Loved
12 > 6 > 4 > 11 > Tactics > 9
Liked a lot
5 > TA2 > 10-2 > 7
Kinda liked
Adventure > 1 > MQ > 8 > 10 > Legend > 14 > 3 > 2
Disliked
13

Feel free to disagree or post your own.
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#215 Jan 12 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Let's just jump ahead to the inevitable. I'll go first with my personal preference, listing only titles I have personally played. Disclaimer: Just because a game is near the middle or end does not mean I'm saying I disliked it; just that I liked the ones above it more.

Loved
12 > 6 > 4 > 11 > Tactics > 9
Liked a lot
5 > TA2 > 10-2 > 7
Kinda liked
Adventure > 1 > MQ > 8 > 10 > Legend > 14 > 3 > 2
Disliked
13

Feel free to disagree or post your own.


Chrono TriggerSmiley: grin
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#216 Jan 12 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Let's just jump ahead to the inevitable. I'll go first with my personal preference, listing only titles I have personally played. Disclaimer: Just because a game is near the middle or end does not mean I'm saying I disliked it; just that I liked the ones above it more.

Loved
12 > 6 > 4 > 11 > Tactics > 9
Liked a lot
5 > TA2 > 10-2 > 7
Kinda liked
Adventure > 1 > MQ > 8 > 10 > Legend > 14 > 3 > 2
Disliked
13

Feel free to disagree or post your own.


Chrono TriggerSmiley: grin


Is not a FF title or I would have included Trigger and Cross on that list, among many other Squaresoft titles :)
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#217 Jan 12 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Let's just jump ahead to the inevitable. I'll go first with my personal preference, listing only titles I have personally played. Disclaimer: Just because a game is near the middle or end does not mean I'm saying I disliked it; just that I liked the ones above it more.

Loved
12 > 6 > 4 > 11 > Tactics > 9
Liked a lot
5 > TA2 > 10-2 > 7
Kinda liked
Adventure > 1 > MQ > 8 > 10 > Legend > 14 > 3 > 2
Disliked
13

Feel free to disagree or post your own.


Another person that really loved FF12 how rare XD!
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#218 Jan 12 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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My preference clearly would be...

1. VI, VII, XI, XII, Tactics(in no particular order)
2. IV, VIII, IX
3. X, XIII
4. X-2

I don't really count 1-4, cause in their original form they are mostly unplayable anymore.
And the Gameboy Tactics are not considered by me as well, cause after FFT for PSX...they suck ***. Couldn't have been more disappointed in Advance and Advance 2...
#219 Jan 12 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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10 > Dissidia > Tactics > 9 > 11 > Crisis Core > 12 > 13 > 7 > 4 > 8 = 6 > 5 > 1

First FF is the best FF. I now realize 10's shortcomings but I can't just erase my feelings from when I was a kid. It impressed me the most at the time.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 6:11pm by Hyanmen
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#220 Jan 12 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
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My FF list

V1-Tactics-XII-V-IV-VIII-VII-IX-X.

My Square list

Xenogears-CT-CC-S3-S2-Behamot lagoon.

P.S: Xenogears >>>> All :)
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#221 Jan 12 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
10 > Dissidia > Tactics > 9 > 11 > Crisis Core > 12 > 13 > 7 > 4 > 8 = 6 > 5 > 1

First FF is the best FF. I now realize 10's shortcomings but I can't just erase my feelings from when I was a kid. It impressed me the most at the time.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 6:11pm by Hyanmen


I've found that in nearly all cases, a person's first FF ranks in their top three. Usually their first is their favorite. There's just an inherent bias that the first one gives you that the others have a hard time living up to, it seems.
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#222 Jan 12 2011 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I've found that in nearly all cases, a person's first FF ranks in their top three. Usually their first is their favorite. There's just an inherent bias that the first one gives you that the others have a hard time living up to, it seems.


Well, we are talking about a part of the experience industry here. Which usually means the "first" of anything, as long as it's done well enough, is the greatest experience for the person in question.

Sadly this usually means we start thinking that as long as the next experience is precisely similar with our "first", it will be just as good. They leave no thought for causality.
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#223 Jan 12 2011 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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(*I reserve the right to change this list at any time*)

From a purely FF point of view (not including other Square games Chrono Trigger, Xenogears, or Tactics, *cough*) 6 and 7 were my favorite followed by 5 then 10 and 12. 11 was good just not single player good; I didn't see most of the content. 9 I'd have to play over again, 8 I just didn't like, the earlier ones 1-4 I'd have to play over again, and 13 I don't want to talk about.

I liked 12 because of the writing. It was the best written FF that I've ever played barring XI and FFXIV.

I liked 10 because of the characters, but primarily the fanboy inside me just loved Auron.

5 is almost purely nostalgic.

6 and 7 were just very good.

#224 Jan 12 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I've found that in nearly all cases, a person's first FF ranks in their top three. Usually their first is their favorite. There's just an inherent bias that the first one gives you that the others have a hard time living up to, it seems.


Well, we are talking about a part of the experience industry here. Which usually means the "first" of anything, as long as it's done well enough, is the greatest experience for the person in question.

Sadly this usually means we start thinking that as long as the next experience is precisely similar with our "first", it will be just as good. They leave no thought for causality.


For me it's the middle time period that was the best. A lot of that is the quality of the games, but also stuff we've talked about in other threads(us older people gettin' jaded). I was younger back then and the games grabbed a hold of me more than they did after that. For a while there I also moved on to other things then came back when I learned of XI and the idea of FF Online caught my attention.

So FF6(equal to CT) > 7 > 8.

The original gets overlooked in my top 3 despite being the 1st one I played on the NES way back when. There's a "this is where it all started" nostalgia to it that shouldn't be forgotten, but that middle period is what I'll always remember as the best era(quite stubbornly at timesSmiley: laugh)

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 11:36am by TwistedOwl
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#225 Jan 12 2011 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I've found that in nearly all cases, a person's first FF ranks in their top three. Usually their first is their favorite. There's just an inherent bias that the first one gives you that the others have a hard time living up to, it seems.


Well, we are talking about a part of the experience industry here. Which usually means the "first" of anything, as long as it's done well enough, is the greatest experience for the person in question.

Sadly this usually means we start thinking that as long as the next experience is precisely similar with our "first", it will be just as good. They leave no thought for causality.


Yeah, most people (and I do not exempt myself from this; I am guilty as well) tend to judge sequels based on their predecessors. This applies not just to video games, but to movies as well. Why do you think there's such a prominence of "The sequel wasn't as good as the original" in movie land? It seems like, in nearly all cases, once someone has decided that they like X, from that point on, all other games/movies are compared to X. X becomes the measuring stick for which all future iterations are based off of. Where this stretches into the realm of totally unfair is where it starts crossing franchises and systems. People don't like Halo because Call of Duty was better. People don't like Final Fantasy XIV because WoW was better. People don't like Fallout because Mass Effect was better. The list goes on. People just start comparing games left and right and are unable to critique a game on its own merits without comparing it to something else they liked better, and the end is nearly always the same; the final verdict is that when you compare "New Game A" to "Older Game I liked", "Older Game I liked" will nearly always win because "New Game A" didn't have Feature 1, Feature 2, and Feature 3 (All of which OGIL had, of course).

Disclaimer 1: I am not advocating or arguing any of those X is better than Y comparisons; I was citing examples. Don't quote me on that part and assume I feel that way.

Disclaimer 2: I've already admitted I do the very thing I'm accusing others of. I point the finger at myself here as well for frequently being unable to objectively evaluate a game or movie without comparing it to another one.

In theory, I think we'd enjoy games a lot more if we'd stop comparing them to each other. In practice, I think that the human mind tends to want to compare things and label things too readily for theory to be reality.
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#226 Jan 12 2011 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
P.S: Xenogears >>>> All :)


While I love me some Xenogears, the fact that it was rushed out the door in such an unfinished state ultimately condemns it. It probably would have been amazing with just a few more months of dev time.

edit:
While we're on the subject of "Which FF game was better?", I have a question for you all:

Which FF had the best magic/ability system?

My vote's for FF7 on that front. I find the materia system to be one of the best designed and most flexible systems they've ever come up with, and I really wish they had just stuck with it and made it a series' staple, rather than dump it and implement the Junction system in FFVIII.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:02pm by Quanta
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#227 Jan 12 2011 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

In theory, I think we'd enjoy games a lot more if we'd stop comparing them to each other.


I think, and this is just my theory, that we simply need to understand ourselves better.

We need to ask ourselves "why exactly was game X so good? How can I achieve the same kind of feeling I had when playing that game, or at least come close to it?"

I hate analogies as they often fail to fully comprehend the situation properly, but let's try: You are in a hot room. All you can think of is getting someplace cooler, it's all you want right now. Suddenly you are given the permission to switch to a cold room instead.

Now everyone can think for themselves how good that feels. From hot to cold (or opposite), it's a great feeling because it is a bipolar experience for you. But let's stay in that cold room for a bit longer. At some point, you stop feeling that sensation you had. You may feel alright for a while, then you start actually getting cold. At that point, you start thinking about going somewhere warm instead. It's all you can think of.

Then you are given the permission to change rooms once again. Ah, how warm! Once again, a great feeling.

Our experiences with RPG's could be labeled as roughly similar experiences. You're not exactly hot nor cold and in fact you aren't even aware that you could experience a great feeling like in the above example. But then you start playing your first Final Fantasy.

14 Final Fantasies later, you have been accustomed to this "warm" feeling. It may even bore you. You want something cold, you want something bipolar. But unlike in the analogy, we can not think of anything that would be the opposite of "warm". We think that because "warm" felt good the first time, it will feel good in the future as well.

Meh, could have been explained better I guess.
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#228 Jan 12 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Where this stretches into the realm of totally unfair is where it starts crossing franchises and systems. People don't like Halo because Call of Duty was better. People don't like Final Fantasy XIV because WoW was better. People don't like Fallout because Mass Effect was better.


People who bought Mass Effect expecting somethin' more like Halo: WTF IS THIS?!?!
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#229 Jan 12 2011 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


In theory, I think we'd enjoy games a lot more if we'd stop comparing them to each other. In practice, I think that the human mind tends to want to compare things and label things too readily for theory to be reality.



I guess with that same theory (short term memory loss) we'd find everything new and awesome. :)

I also agree with the 'in practice' part, that it sucks when we like something like music for example, but we listen to so many songs that it gets harder and harder to find (at least for me) something good to listen to.

That's how niches are formed. We dig and dig and dig until unfortunately we forget why we're listening in the first place. We become snobs and hate filled little trolls when 'nothing's good anymore.' (at least I do sometimes)

So it's good to eschew those conventions of snobbery sometimes and just enjoy yourself; That 1972 re-issue of Tago Mago by Can, will never compare to My Humps by the Black Eyed Peas, nor should it have to.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:12pm by Kierk
#230 Jan 12 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quanta wrote:
Ostia wrote:
P.S: Xenogears >>>> All :)


While I love me some Xenogears, the fact that it was rushed out the door in such an unfinished state ultimately condemns it. It probably would have been amazing with just a few more months of dev time.

edit:
While we're on the subject of "Which FF game was better?", I have a question for you all:

Which FF had the best magic/ability system?

My vote's for FF7 on that front. I find the materia system to be one of the best designed and most flexible systems they've ever come up with, and I really wish they had just stuck with it and made it a series' staple, rather than dump it and implement the Junction system in FFVIII.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:02pm by Quanta


The classic RPGer in me liked FFIV, where characters learned their own individual, unique abilities as they progressed, but I have to say that I don't think that was the best.

I agree that I didn't like the Junction system at all; it seems counterintuitive that I should have to pick between casting my best spells or boosting my stats. It also seemed counterproductive to sit in some fights for 20-30 minutes because this boss is the only thing I can draw a certain spell from for a long time, so I want to get 300 of them, and one of my characters is only drawing one at a time because Zell is terrible and I hate you and wish you would cut that the **** out, I mean really, I just want to finish drawing Zombie and Double and why does this have to take me over an hour when one phoenix down kills you and... tangent. Sorry.

The materia system was a pretty solid one. I'd have to say that I liked the materia system more than I liked the story or the characters in FF7.

I was a huge fan of the learned ability system in FF6 and FF9. Those were probably some of my favorites, albeit a bit tedious because you had to keep shuffling gear around.

FF10 and FF 13 were probably two of my least favorite systems. Conversely, FF12's was one of my favorites. I didn't like having to spend LP for gear; that seemed silly, but I did like that I could buy abilities and spells and augments with LP while I leveled, and that I had pretty much free control of the direction I wanted to take my characters. If I wanted one character to be a katana wielding black mage and another to be a gun toting healer then dammit, I could!

After much deliberation though, FF5/Tactics/X-2/XI's job system is my favorite. Especially in 5/T where you could mix and match abilities; subjobs were nice but didn't quite measure up. That's also why I'm a huge fan of XIV's armory system as well.

So first place is the job system. Second place goes to the license grid. Third goes to materia. A close fourth to FF6/9's equipped abilities. Fifth to 10/13's sphere grid/crystarium. And tenth goes to the draw system. There is no sixth through ninth. I just hate the draw system that much.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#231 Jan 12 2011 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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415 posts
Ostia wrote:
My FF list

V1-Tactics-XII-V-IV-VIII-VII-IX-X.

My Square list

Xenogears-CT-CC-S3-S2-Behamot lagoon.

P.S: Xenogears >>>> All :)

I think you copied my FF list..

I loved Xenogears, but I liked Star Ocean better.
#232 Jan 12 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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597 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I agree that I didn't like the Junction system at all; it seems counterintuitive that I should have to pick between casting my best spells or boosting my stats. It also seemed counterproductive to sit in some fights for 20-30 minutes because this boss is the only thing I can draw a certain spell from for a long time, so I want to get 300 of them, and one of my characters is only drawing one at a time because Zell is terrible and I hate you and wish you would cut that the @#%^ out, I mean really, I just want to finish drawing Zombie and Double and why does this have to take me over an hour when one phoenix down kills you and... tangent. Sorry.


I think the only thing that would have helped the Junction system was if equipping the various GFs set your stats to pre-determined numbers (eg. equipping Ifrit gave you melee-centric stats, equipping Shiva gave you caster-centric stats, etc.), and then have spells there that you can either cast on a target, or "feed" to the GF to give you a temporary stat boost (eg. feeding Fire spells to Ifrit gives you a boost to attack power for a bit).

Quote:
The materia system was a pretty solid one. I'd have to say that I liked the materia system more than I liked the story or the characters in FF7.


IMO, the only characters that are really ****** in FF7 are Sephiroth, and the whole Shinra Corporation. They really needed to be fleshed out more so that they didn't come off nearly as cartoonish as they did.

Quote:
I was a huge fan of the learned ability system in FF6 and FF9. Those were probably some of my favorites, albeit a bit tedious because you had to keep shuffling gear around.

FF10 and FF 13 were probably two of my least favorite systems. Conversely, FF12's was one of my favorites. I didn't like having to spend LP for gear; that seemed silly, but I did like that I could buy abilities and spells and augments with LP while I leveled, and that I had pretty much free control of the direction I wanted to take my characters. If I wanted one character to be a katana wielding black mage and another to be a gun toting healer then dammit, I could!


My only gripe with FF6's system was that you could learn every spell in the game on every character. The license grid in FF12 has the exact same problem, only it also extends to equipment and special skills.

Quote:
After much deliberation though, FF5/Tactics/X-2/XI's job system is my favorite. Especially in 5/T where you could mix and match abilities; subjobs were nice but didn't quite measure up. That's also why I'm a huge fan of XIV's armory system as well.


What's great about the job system in FF5 is that I could, for example, put White magic on my Black Mage character and they would still be reasonably effective in healing the other party members if the extra healing was needed. FFXI's implementation was a colossal disappointment, since the subjob was little more than a stat boost with maybe one or two useful abilities that carried over; trying to offheal with BLM was a waste of MP as a result, because they only had access to the weakest heals.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#233 Jan 12 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
My FF list

V1-Tactics-XII-V-IV-VIII-VII-IX-X.

My Square list

Xenogears-CT-CC-S3-S2-Behamot lagoon.

P.S: Xenogears >>>> All :)

I think you copied my FF list..

I loved Xenogears, but I liked Star Ocean better.


I loved SO:TTEOT. Haven't played the 360 SO yet.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#234 Jan 12 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
41 posts
Never seen so many people actually declare that they liked FFXII. I like you guys. Really.
Despite it's shortcomings with the story, it was still enjoyable and I absolutely loved the combat in the game. So much freedom and for the nay-sayers, the ability to play it like a normal FF as well. I was actually hoping that SE's next MMO would take place in Ivalice. The amount of history that Ivalice has could be milked for years, not to mention it has plenty of races already.
#235 Jan 12 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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9,526 posts
Hyena wrote:
The amount of history that Ivalice has could be milked for years, not to mention it has plenty of races already.
Yeah I would love playable moogles... and viera and bangaa and nou-mou

; ;

I was one of the people who was sad XIV went with XI's races... and nothing else. If they had even added a couple it would have been cool.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#236 Jan 12 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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180 posts
Hyena wrote:
Never seen so many people actually declare that they liked FFXII. I like you guys. Really.
Despite it's shortcomings with the story, it was still enjoyable and I absolutely loved the combat in the game. So much freedom and for the nay-sayers, the ability to play it like a normal FF as well. I was actually hoping that SE's next MMO would take place in Ivalice. The amount of history that Ivalice has could be milked for years, not to mention it has plenty of races already.


I don't get the love for XII either. Between the leveling and gambit systems I had a party of nearly identical characters all on autopilot. Not to mention that I can't even remember what the story was about. Balthier and Fran were great characters though and I do love the world of Ivalice. Maybe with the FFXIV debacle we'll see a "Final Fantasy: Ivalice Online" sometime in the future. They'd be wise to skip the numbering system if they ever make another FF online game.

(Dang, 'Ivalice Online' is catchy. It's not even real and that makes me want to play it)

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 7:15pm by Calispel
#237 Jan 12 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Hyena wrote:
Never seen so many people actually declare that they liked FFXII. I like you guys. Really.
Despite it's shortcomings with the story, it was still enjoyable and I absolutely loved the combat in the game. So much freedom and for the nay-sayers, the ability to play it like a normal FF as well. I was actually hoping that SE's next MMO would take place in Ivalice. The amount of history that Ivalice has could be milked for years, not to mention it has plenty of races already.


I loved 12 but hated 13. Honestly, I didn't know many people hated 12 until after 13 came out.
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#238 Jan 13 2011 at 1:15 AM Rating: Decent
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9,997 posts
Quote:
The world ? Yes, the characters ? No just no.


Having seen many a character analysis, most of the characters in FF6 were very shallow (there were twice as many of them afterall), and even among leads like Terra, Locke, and Celes, the amount of actual character development was roughly equivalent to characters like Barrett, Tifa, and Aeris(/th) in FF7. Even as a silent protagonist, Cloud is at worst as developed a character as Terra. Later games have even further developed him.

In either game, people will use their imaginations to shape the characters, and minor characters will primarily be personality templates. Characters in the SNES days were generally not very fleshed out and didn't actually have many developing lines.

---

That aside, I'll try to do a tier list of sorts, but not necessarily in order of favorite to least.

High:
FFT, FF6, FF7, FF9, Dissidia, Crisis Core (also Xenogears, Super Mario RPG, ChronoTrigger)

Medium:
FF10, FFX-2, FF5, FF4, FF13, FF11

Low:
FF1, FF3, FF8, FFTA, Dirge of Cerberus

Bottom:
FF12, FF2, FFTA2 (also ChronoCross)

Sadly I have yet to get around to titles like Star Ocean and Vagrant Story, among others.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#239 Jan 13 2011 at 5:07 AM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Quanta wrote:
Ostia wrote:
P.S: Xenogears >>>> All :)


While I love me some Xenogears, the fact that it was rushed out the door in such an unfinished state ultimately condemns it. It probably would have been amazing with just a few more months of dev time.

edit:
While we're on the subject of "Which FF game was better?", I have a question for you all:

Which FF had the best magic/ability system?

My vote's for FF7 on that front. I find the materia system to be one of the best designed and most flexible systems they've ever come up with, and I really wish they had just stuck with it and made it a series' staple, rather than dump it and implement the Junction system in FFVIII.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:02pm by Quanta


It was not rushed, they cut resources from the game, to help finish FFVII <.<

Either way, is not like the second CD was 80% of the game, it was 10-15% Max.

As for your question, you mean the esper system from FFVI ?
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MUTED
#240 Jan 13 2011 at 5:08 AM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
My FF list

V1-Tactics-XII-V-IV-VIII-VII-IX-X.

My Square list

Xenogears-CT-CC-S3-S2-Behamot lagoon.

P.S: Xenogears >>>> All :)

I think you copied my FF list..

I loved Xenogears, but I liked Star Ocean better.


o.O you never posted one <.<

And by SO wich one ? the only one that i can even consider to be on the same league is SO2
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MUTED
#241 Jan 13 2011 at 5:27 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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597 posts
Ostia wrote:
It was not rushed, they cut resources from the game, to help finish FFVII <.<


Wasn't FFVII done before XG even began development?

Quote:
Either way, is not like the second CD was 80% of the game, it was 10-15% Max.


Sure, but certain problems permeate the entire game. Magic attacks, as I recall, were largely useless; it was almost always optimal to slug it out with combo attacks. The only character with even remotely useful magic was Elly, and I think you needed a specific setup to get your full mileage out of it.

The combo system also had problems. As I recall, you were basically capable of grinding out all but the top-tier combos as soon as you were able to leave Lahan; there were no level caps to anything. If not for the plot device keeping you from them, you'd have access to all of the most powerful attacks in the game from the very start.

Quote:
As for your question, you mean the esper system from FFVI ?


The problem with the esper system I addressed above; by the end of the game, every character knew every spell, so there was really no thought required in determining a character's build, other than which espers you equip and when for the stat bonuses on level up. Everyone was essentially a mage with their own special class ability, some which were more powerful than others (eg. Sabin, Cyan, Gogo, Setzer if you cheated).
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#242 Jan 13 2011 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
***
2,202 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
The world ? Yes, the characters ? No just no.


Having seen many a character analysis, most of the characters in FF6 were very shallow (there were twice as many of them afterall), and even among leads like Terra, Locke, and Celes, the amount of actual character development was roughly equivalent to characters like Barrett, Tifa, and Aeris(/th) in FF7. Even as a silent protagonist, Cloud is at worst as developed a character as Terra. Later games have even further developed him.

In either game, people will use their imaginations to shape the characters, and minor characters will primarily be personality templates. Characters in the SNES days were generally not very fleshed out and didn't actually have many developing lines.

---

That aside, I'll try to do a tier list of sorts, but not necessarily in order of favorite to least.

High:
FFT, FF6, FF7, FF9, Dissidia, Crisis Core (also Xenogears, Super Mario RPG, ChronoTrigger)

Medium:
FF10, FFX-2, FF5, FF4, FF13, FF11

Low:
FF1, FF3, FF8, FFTA, Dirge of Cerberus

Bottom:
FF12, FF2, FFTA2 (also ChronoCross)

Sadly I have yet to get around to titles like Star Ocean and Vagrant Story, among others.


Oh i agree i mean, the character development tifa, yuffie, cath sith, vicent, cid had on FFVII was Magnificent! I mean is not like you could miss 2 of those characters and nothing changed right ? Oh wait...

Shadow has more development than half the cast of FFVII <.< and lets not talk about cloud <.<
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MUTED
#243 Jan 13 2011 at 5:35 AM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Quanta wrote:
Ostia wrote:
It was not rushed, they cut resources from the game, to help finish FFVII <.<


Wasn't FFVII done before XG even began development?

Quote:
Either way, is not like the second CD was 80% of the game, it was 10-15% Max.


Sure, but certain problems permeate the entire game. Magic attacks, as I recall, were largely useless; it was almost always optimal to slug it out with combo attacks. The only character with even remotely useful magic was Elly, and I think you needed a specific setup to get your full mileage out of it.

The combo system also had problems. As I recall, you were basically capable of grinding out all but the top-tier combos as soon as you were able to leave Lahan; there were no level caps to anything. If not for the plot device keeping you from them, you'd have access to all of the most powerful attacks in the game from the very start.

Quote:
As for your question, you mean the esper system from FFVI ?


The problem with the esper system I addressed above; by the end of the game, every character knew every spell, so there was really no thought required in determining a character's build, other than which espers you equip and when for the stat bonuses on level up. Everyone was essentially a mage with their own special class ability, some which were more powerful than others (eg. Sabin, Cyan, Gogo, Setzer if you cheated).


No, FFVII came out in 97, XG came out in 98

Yes magic was useless, except for healing, and i could say the same for limit brake's, all you needed was to use them to unlock the stongest one's except the last ones <.<

and is the same in FFVI wtf you talking about ?

____________________________
MUTED
#244 Jan 13 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Quanta wrote:
Quote:
As for your question, you mean the esper system from FFVI ?


The problem with the esper system I addressed above; by the end of the game, every character knew every spell, so there was really no thought required in determining a character's build, other than which espers you equip and when for the stat bonuses on level up. Everyone was essentially a mage with their own special class ability, some which were more powerful than others (eg. Sabin, Cyan, Gogo, Setzer if you cheated).


The same could be said for the materia system as well. And the license grid. And the Job system. And pretty much every other system in every other game except 4, 9, and 13.

Honestly, if you really put enough time and effort into it, 4 is the only game that doesn't allow you have characters that are virtual clones of one another.

(EDIT: I love how a thread about MMORPGs has turned into a thread about single player RPGs. Derail successful.)

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 11:52am by Mikhalia
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#245 Jan 13 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Default
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415 posts
Kachi wrote:
Having seen many a character analysis, most of the characters in FF6 were very shallow (there were twice as many of them afterall), and even among leads like Terra, Locke, and Celes, the amount of actual character development was roughly equivalent to characters like Barrett, Tifa, and Aeris(/th) in FF7. Even as a silent protagonist, Cloud is at worst as developed a character as Terra. Later games have even further developed him.

Shallow? Sephiroth didn't even have a real motive. His reasoning was, "Oh the bad man touched me in the wrong place. Boo hoo." Cloud? Typical amnesia/depressed/conflicted protagonist. Tifa? Completely forgettable role outside of her large *******. Aerith? Personally, I never understood the hype. I actually personally know a guy who literally cried when she died. I only ask why, because she was a pretty boring character to begin with.

Ostia wrote:
o.O you never posted one <.<

And by SO wich one ? the only one that i can even consider to be on the same league is SO2

My mental list of Final Fantasies is nearly identical to yours.

As for Star Ocean, I thought both the Second Story and Till The End Of Time were great games, in story, characters, and gameplay (though I'd give the gameplay nod to Xenogears).
#246 Jan 13 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
SoumaKyou wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Having seen many a character analysis, most of the characters in FF6 were very shallow (there were twice as many of them afterall), and even among leads like Terra, Locke, and Celes, the amount of actual character development was roughly equivalent to characters like Barrett, Tifa, and Aeris(/th) in FF7. Even as a silent protagonist, Cloud is at worst as developed a character as Terra. Later games have even further developed him.

Shallow? Sephiroth didn't even have a real motive. His reasoning was, "Oh the bad man touched me in the wrong place. Boo hoo." Cloud? Typical amnesia/depressed/conflicted protagonist. Tifa? Completely forgettable role outside of her large *******. Aerith? Personally, I never understood the hype. I actually personally know a guy who literally cried when she died. I only ask why, because she was a pretty boring character to begin with.

Ostia wrote:
o.O you never posted one <.<

And by SO wich one ? the only one that i can even consider to be on the same league is SO2

My mental list of Final Fantasies is nearly identical to yours.

As for Star Ocean, I thought both the Second Story and Till The End Of Time were great games, in story, characters, and gameplay (though I'd give the gameplay nod to Xenogears).


I liked SO2 more than 3, but 3 was still a solid game, unlike 4 <.<

Either way if you liked SO3, try Infinite Space for the DS, they are a lot alike storywise
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MUTED
#247 Jan 13 2011 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,566 posts
The thing about VI is that it was a story featuring an ensemble cast. The charaters may appear shallow but it's actually the nature of that story telling device. For a recent example, look at the film Crash. Do we know any more about the characters in that film, which won several awards, than we do the characters in VI?

The point of using an ensemble cast, which is commonly used in plays, is to tell a larger narrative about the world these characters live in as opposed to one character's transformation.

VII's narrative was more character-based. Though Cloud could be likened to a daytime Soap Opera character being that he's an amnesiac, brooding type whose extensive vocabulary seems to top out at "whatever" and "...".
#248 Jan 15 2011 at 12:43 AM Rating: Decent
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9,997 posts
Quote:
Oh i agree i mean, the character development tifa, yuffie, cath sith, vicent, cid had on FFVII was Magnificent! I mean is not like you could miss 2 of those characters and nothing changed right ? Oh wait...

Shadow has more development than half the cast of FFVII <.< and lets not talk about cloud <.<


Vincent was the only completely optional character iirc, and he did have development within the world if you looked for it (much like how all of Shadow's character development was entirely optional). Yuffie was not optional-- you just had the option to get her much earlier (IIRC). Yuffie herself does change things, at least far more than any of the optional characters in IV (and even some of the required ones).

Cloud wasn't just some brooding amnesiac-- he was used as a guinea pig, left to watch his friend die, and subsequently traumatized. He was really the first genuinely dark lead protagonist-- even making characters like Cecil and Kain look chipper by comparison.

The characters in VII were not developed as explicitly as in earlier games, partly because they didn't need to be. You were expected to empathize with their circumstances, rather than learn everything about them through inner monologues and dramatic speeches.

Btw, if we're still talking about my earlier statement that the world and character's are better fleshed out, the world and characters in VII have been substantially further fleshed out by the other titles in the series.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 10:45pm by Kachi
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#249 Jan 15 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
***
2,202 posts
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Oh i agree i mean, the character development tifa, yuffie, cath sith, vicent, cid had on FFVII was Magnificent! I mean is not like you could miss 2 of those characters and nothing changed right ? Oh wait...

Shadow has more development than half the cast of FFVII <.< and lets not talk about cloud <.<


Vincent was the only completely optional character iirc, and he did have development within the world if you looked for it (much like how all of Shadow's character development was entirely optional). Yuffie was not optional-- you just had the option to get her much earlier (IIRC). Yuffie herself does change things, at least far more than any of the optional characters in IV (and even some of the required ones).

Cloud wasn't just some brooding amnesiac-- he was used as a guinea pig, left to watch his friend die, and subsequently traumatized. He was really the first genuinely dark lead protagonist-- even making characters like Cecil and Kain look chipper by comparison.

The characters in VII were not developed as explicitly as in earlier games, partly because they didn't need to be. You were expected to empathize with their circumstances, rather than learn everything about them through inner monologues and dramatic speeches.

Btw, if we're still talking about my earlier statement that the world and character's are better fleshed out, the world and characters in VII have been substantially further fleshed out by the other titles in the series.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 10:45pm by Kachi


Yuffie is an optional character.... and serves as a comic relief, nothing more, nothing else, you can finish the game from start to finish with out her and nothing changes.

As for cloud, #1 he dint witness the assasination of Zack, if you belive otherwise go play crisis core, cecil on the other hand saw tellah sacrifice himself to even attempt to harm Golbez, the twins sacrificed themself to allow him to escape baron, cid blowing himself up to allow him escape the red wings, and finally he had to find out that the being he hated the most was his brother. So yeah cloud is the first ever dark lead protagonist huh ? Lmao
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#250 Jan 15 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Crisis Core was better than 7.

So tragic.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#251 Jan 15 2011 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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597 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The same could be said for the materia system as well. And the license grid. And the Job system. And pretty much every other system in every other game except 4, 9, and 13.


The only catch with both the materia and job systems was you actually had to equip the characters with all of the same materia, or assign them the same job/abilities in order to effectively clone them. VI didn't require you to leave magicite on a character in order to access spells; once you learned them, they were yours. Forever. The license grid was far worse though, because you could learn everything on every character, giving you a command card with 30 different commands on it.

Quote:
Honestly, if you really put enough time and effort into it, 4 is the only game that doesn't allow you have characters that are virtual clones of one another.


True, but it's also the most restrictive at the same time. Everything is set in stone, so you might as well just play.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
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