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#252 Jan 15 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The same could be said for the materia system as well. And the license grid. And the Job system. And pretty much every other system in every other game except 4, 9, and 13.


The only catch with both the materia and job systems was you actually had to equip the characters with all of the same materia, or assign them the same job/abilities in order to effectively clone them. VI didn't require you to leave magicite on a character in order to access spells; once you learned them, they were yours. Forever. The license grid was far worse though, because you could learn everything on every character, giving you a command card with 30 different commands on it.

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Honestly, if you really put enough time and effort into it, 4 is the only game that doesn't allow you have characters that are virtual clones of one another.


True, but it's also the most restrictive at the same time. Everything is set in stone, so you might as well just play.


The purist in me says that games that are restrictive in that they limit each character to their own personal progression (SO, Lunar, FF4, Chrono Trigger) are better games; they -usually- (not always) have stronger stories and character development since the characters are who they are.

But I admit that the gamer in me finds the clone systems (FF12, FF5, FFX-2, FF9, FF7) more fun because unlike MMORPGs, I actually -do- enjoy the grind in a single player RPG. Once I find a niche with some enemies that don't have annoyingly debilitating traits (super high defense, double or triple attack, aoe poison, crap like that), I'm very likely to grind out 2-5 levels. Doubly so if I know I'm about to get a new party member soon. Triply so if I'm trying to save up for gear upgrades in the near future.

I'm kinda backwards in that regard... in an MMORPG, I want to get together and grind out levels with other people, but I want to have fun and experience the story. In a single player RPG, I still want to experience the story, but I don't mind pausing the story to grind for a couple hours when I feel in the mood to do it; usually I'll just turn on my other TV, put something good on, and grind away.

There's definitely a huge difference between open systems that allow your character to become a tree versus focused systems that force your character to their end point. Both have their benefits and preference is a matter of opinion.
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#253 Jan 15 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The same could be said for the materia system as well. And the license grid. And the Job system. And pretty much every other system in every other game except 4, 9, and 13.


The only catch with both the materia and job systems was you actually had to equip the characters with all of the same materia, or assign them the same job/abilities in order to effectively clone them. VI didn't require you to leave magicite on a character in order to access spells; once you learned them, they were yours. Forever. The license grid was far worse though, because you could learn everything on every character, giving you a command card with 30 different commands on it.

Quote:
Honestly, if you really put enough time and effort into it, 4 is the only game that doesn't allow you have characters that are virtual clones of one another.


True, but it's also the most restrictive at the same time. Everything is set in stone, so you might as well just play.


The purist in me says that games that are restrictive in that they limit each character to their own personal progression (SO, Lunar, FF4, Chrono Trigger) are better games; they -usually- (not always) have stronger stories and character development since the characters are who they are.

But I admit that the gamer in me finds the clone systems (FF12, FF5, FFX-2, FF9, FF7) more fun because unlike MMORPGs, I actually -do- enjoy the grind in a single player RPG. Once I find a niche with some enemies that don't have annoyingly debilitating traits (super high defense, double or triple attack, aoe poison, crap like that), I'm very likely to grind out 2-5 levels. Doubly so if I know I'm about to get a new party member soon. Triply so if I'm trying to save up for gear upgrades in the near future.

I'm kinda backwards in that regard... in an MMORPG, I want to get together and grind out levels with other people, but I want to have fun and experience the story. In a single player RPG, I still want to experience the story, but I don't mind pausing the story to grind for a couple hours when I feel in the mood to do it; usually I'll just turn on my other TV, put something good on, and grind away.

There's definitely a huge difference between open systems that allow your character to become a tree versus focused systems that force your character to their end point. Both have their benefits and preference is a matter of opinion.


I wouldnt really call FF9 a clone system, all you equipped was traits.

I usually prefer the unique class games. FF9 and FF6 (job abilities were unique at lest) are my top 2. I think it rewards the player more for fleshing out every character. What I found the most fun though, was the versatile combat ones, X, X-2, and even 13. Something about being able to switch classes/roles mid combat felt like there was more to do that just use powerful attacks everytime. I know I put more needless grinding into X-2 just to get odd combos like singer/singer/gun mage or something like that to lock down opponents, than I had in any other game.
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#254 Jan 15 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Yuffie is an optional character.... and serves as a comic relief, nothing more, nothing else, you can finish the game from start to finish with out her and nothing changes.


Ah, she is totally optional. I thought you had to get her in Wutai, but Wutai itself is optional. Still, it's not that there is no development for her, just that development is optional.

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As for cloud, #1 he dint witness the assasination of Zack, if you belive otherwise go play crisis core, cecil on the other hand saw tellah sacrifice himself to even attempt to harm Golbez, the twins sacrificed themself to allow him to escape baron, cid blowing himself up to allow him escape the red wings, and finally he had to find out that the being he hated the most was his brother. So yeah cloud is the first ever dark lead protagonist huh ? Lmao


No, Cloud didn't witness his death. Let's not be pedantic here. He learns what happened.

Cecil was too noble and optimistic to truly be a dark character. That's what defines a dark character, not the circumstances surrounding them. Cloud lived in a dark and depressing world, endured traumatic events, and as a result became a dark protagonist. Cecil was definitely darker than other protagonists at the time FFIV released (who were mostly grinning, chipper, and ceaselessly cheerful), but he's still sort of a pansy compared to an actual dark character.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#255 Jan 15 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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FF8 never gets any love :(
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#256 Jan 15 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I know some people who loved FF8. Personally I thought it would have been a much better game without the tedious magic "Drawing". Otherwise I loved the depth of the battle design. Also, the card game which was so intertwined with the rest of the game was a little infuriating at times.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#257 Jan 15 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Yuffie is an optional character.... and serves as a comic relief, nothing more, nothing else, you can finish the game from start to finish with out her and nothing changes.


Ah, she is totally optional. I thought you had to get her in Wutai, but Wutai itself is optional. Still, it's not that there is no development for her, just that development is optional.

Quote:
As for cloud, #1 he dint witness the assasination of Zack, if you belive otherwise go play crisis core, cecil on the other hand saw tellah sacrifice himself to even attempt to harm Golbez, the twins sacrificed themself to allow him to escape baron, cid blowing himself up to allow him escape the red wings, and finally he had to find out that the being he hated the most was his brother. So yeah cloud is the first ever dark lead protagonist huh ? Lmao


No, Cloud didn't witness his death. Let's not be pedantic here. He learns what happened.

Cecil was too noble and optimistic to truly be a dark character. That's what defines a dark character, not the circumstances surrounding them. Cloud lived in a dark and depressing world, endured traumatic events, and as a result became a dark protagonist. Cecil was definitely darker than other protagonists at the time FFIV released (who were mostly grinning, chipper, and ceaselessly cheerful), but he's still sort of a pansy compared to an actual dark character.


Meh! Neither cecil nor cloud are dark protagonist, tho cecil was cooler :P
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#258 Jan 15 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
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I know I'm jumping in late again.

I'm surprised at how much defense X-2 got. I personally think X-2 was the best (single player) Final Fantasy game we got in the last 10 years. The story was terrible and I agree that if I play X-2 directly after playing X (which I did; 3rd play of X) Yuna is completely ridiculous and hard to believe...

...but character/story flaws aside the game is incredibly fun and the turn based battle is arguably one of the best Square Enix ever produced. I had so much fun turning those 3 girls into formidable powerhouses. Still irritated to this day about the International with extra dress spheres and more battles. Battle was the best part of that game.

Also how I feel about XII (12) but again the character/story ruin that game for me. I expected the X-2 story to be ridiculous (and it was) so with just game play to go on, I enjoyed it. I expected the 12 story/characters to be good, though, so even though the game play is outstanding (and I played through 12 twice now, tempted a 3rd time if my PS2 wasn't decommissioned) I don't have a lot of respect for it because of Vaan/Panelo and the Star Wars impersonating story.

I'd have loved to play the game they intended with Basch if that's actually true. I also wouldn't have minded if Vaan/Panelo and their goals to be pirates or really anything about them had any relevance to the story. Even Vaan's brother gets basically shunted into limbo as having no lasting value on the plot. That's too bad. I kept waiting for it to be very important.
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#259 Jan 15 2011 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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Also - the bit about Sephiroth not having motivation stuck in my head.

Sephiroth is to Jenova as bird flu is to (common) flu.
or the intended symbolism of Jesus to Jehova.

He found out how he was conceived and new his destiny as an extension of his genes. Does this make him a "strong" villain? No, but I'm only saying I understand his motivation. He was born/bred to become Jenova incarnate and to carry out Jenova's will on the Planet.

He makes this clear in Advent Children but it's also alluded to in FFVII.

It's really not that far of a stone's throw from the magitek experiments being performed on a certain villains brain driving him insane with a lust for power and destruction. Sephiroth is Kefka 2.0 - they took the same idea a step farther. Kefka was infused with demi-god powers and Sephiroth with god-like power.

The whole Kef/Seph argument seems trite to me when you look at lowest common denominators.
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#260 Jan 15 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:
Also - the bit about Sephiroth not having motivation stuck in my head.

Sephiroth is to Jenova as bird flu is to (common) flu.
or the intended symbolism of Jesus to Jehova.

He found out how he was conceived and new his destiny as an extension of his genes. Does this make him a "strong" villain? No, but I'm only saying I understand his motivation. He was born/bred to become Jenova incarnate and to carry out Jenova's will on the Planet.

He makes this clear in Advent Children but it's also alluded to in FFVII.

It's really not that far of a stone's throw from the magitek experiments being performed on a certain villains brain driving him insane with a lust for power and destruction. Sephiroth is Kefka 2.0 - they took the same idea a step farther. Kefka was infused with demi-god powers and Sephiroth with god-like power.

The whole Kef/Seph argument seems trite to me when you look at lowest common denominators.


The reason Kefka will always be a better villain in my opinion, is that Kefka was human.
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#261 Jan 16 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Good
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@Kefka/Sephiroth; I like both villains, but Sephiroth is especially interesting as a character in Crisis Core. As far as I'm concerned, he was a perfectly good villain in FFVII, but if you didn't play Crisis Core, you have no place to question his motivations. What was conveyed subtly in the original was spelled out relatively plainly in the prequel.

Quote:
Also how I feel about XII (12) but again the character/story ruin that game for me. I expected the X-2 story to be ridiculous (and it was) so with just game play to go on, I enjoyed it. I expected the 12 story/characters to be good, though, so even though the game play is outstanding (and I played through 12 twice now, tempted a 3rd time if my PS2 wasn't decommissioned) I don't have a lot of respect for it because of Vaan/Panelo and the Star Wars impersonating story.


I agree with your assessment of the story/character-- sadly, I didn't care for the gameplay either. I found most of the areas to be uninteresting, the gameplay in general was tired (based too heavily on FFXI), and combat was relatively boring, partly due to a lack of useful abilities. IMHO, it was one of the worst FF's, but that is admittedly due most likely to the similarities it held to a game I was burned out on.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#262 Jan 16 2011 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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291 posts
Quote:
I agree with your assessment of the story/character-- sadly, I didn't care for the gameplay either. I found most of the areas to be uninteresting, the gameplay in general was tired (based too heavily on FFXI), and combat was relatively boring, partly due to a lack of useful abilities. IMHO, it was one of the worst FF's, but that is admittedly due most likely to the similarities it held to a game I was burned out on.


Actually I agree with you in all except "battle."
As far as AI characters (and setting their AI) goes, I would take 12 system over any other I have ever seen (except - Tales? - where I can actually have my wife play my characters so they aren't retarded). Speaking of that concept I don't mind that 99% of RPG are single player, but why haven't more RPG fed off of this idea? It seems so intuitive compared to the retarded characters in FFXIII (13). I had to play healer half the game simply because they don't prioritize the death of the 1 character that equals "Game Over."

Anyway I enjoyed the battle in 12 for active battle but I prefer turn based RPG in general. Enjoying the battle of 12 made the Hunt sub-game about the best part of the game since I found the plot and characters to be so terribly developed (by my standards for a #'d FF).

Edit: This is just personal preference (obviously the whole post is) but I prefer the subtle underlying tones of VII to having it spelled out plainly and obviously in Crisis Core (or any other medium). Considering how many of my friends needed to have certain events of FF7 (Nibelheim Incident) explained to them, though, I guess SE didn't do a good job of making it as clear (regardless of subtlety) as they needed. Anyway, I prefer that FF7 made me think and discover plot elements rather than having them spelled out blatantly - and on top of that even if you don't bother to sift through the vague plot-lines it doesn't really make the game any less interesting or fun (for its time).

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 4:20am by Kirutaru
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Battle Mage Kiru
#263 Jan 16 2011 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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I played ffxi for a while. I was a casual whm/blm and I made it to lvl 50 ish. I enjoyed the crap outta that game. After playing WOW for a bit and being introduced to pvp, I never thought I'd be interested in a pve game again.

I found my way to Aion which my wife and I currently play. I am casual and always play healer, but the pvp content adds a bit of excitement when you least expect it, as enemy players can just rift into your territory and flat line you when you least expect it.

Still one has only to read the global chat channel for a few minutes to get an idea of the player base. Aion has been the worst I have seen for constant pained "qq" There seems to be no pleasing the Aion community at all. NC-Soft has radically, and aggressively changed the game so much and so often... It's becoming harder and harder to keep up.

FF-14 has the feel of some of the earlier "ff" series console games. I don't like the interface much, and I believe a universal auction house should be added. However, for the most part I KNOW I would eventually get used to it. Just like we did back in the "Atari days"

FF-14 as it is now, is a challenge to play in an mmo world where they basically play the game for you. (ok I stretch the truth a bit yes?) What I guess I am trying to say, is that it's the same game for everyone. Some will find little tricks and develop strategies that make things a bit easier. Eventually these things get shared within their linkshell, and the whole community catches on.

THAT is what makes a game great. It's community of those who have perservered and made progress though sharing information. Hopefully the changes made to ff-14 wont be as extreme as the ones made elsewhere. With all the pvp games I have been owned in, It might be nice to get owned in a pve setting.

Long live "Asteroids"
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#264 Jan 16 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Kirutaru wrote:
Also - the bit about Sephiroth not having motivation stuck in my head.

Sephiroth is to Jenova as bird flu is to (common) flu.
or the intended symbolism of Jesus to Jehova.

He found out how he was conceived and new his destiny as an extension of his genes. Does this make him a "strong" villain? No, but I'm only saying I understand his motivation. He was born/bred to become Jenova incarnate and to carry out Jenova's will on the Planet.

He makes this clear in Advent Children but it's also alluded to in FFVII.

It's really not that far of a stone's throw from the magitek experiments being performed on a certain villains brain driving him insane with a lust for power and destruction. Sephiroth is Kefka 2.0 - they took the same idea a step farther. Kefka was infused with demi-god powers and Sephiroth with god-like power.

The whole Kef/Seph argument seems trite to me when you look at lowest common denominators.


This is the thing, we are comparing a villain from one game, where he came, he saw, he conquered, and then he got beat, to a villain that was practically a carbon copy of the previous villain, and he came he saw and got beat, then he came again, and got beat :)

Btw his motivation was lame, he was a perfectly fine soldier, up to the point where he found out that he was genetically altered, then he snaped and went to the nibelhelm lab to read about it, wich by the way stated that jenova was a cetra, not an alien specimen( we find that out later), so why would he go to the mako reactor and claim to jenovah he was gonna take the planet back from the humans that stole it from her? Cetras where the guardians of the planet <.< now lest say he found out when he was in the lifestream of who jenova really was, and the she was the calamity from the sky, that killed the cetra and tried to destroy the planet, he just went from a fine soldier, to "I will claim this planet back from the humans mother, for we are the righfull owners" to oh well my mother is an alien and she wanted to destroy the planet/use it as a vessel to travel the cosmos(Very wild arms like might i add) Cool i'm game <.<

Thats sephiroth right there XD!

Oh and BTW: The three statues of magi, where the gods of the FFVI World, and kefka stole their powers completely, asides from the power he already had from all the espers he drained, for all intended purposes he was a GOD in FFVI
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MUTED
#265 Jan 16 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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I would say probably 7 out of 10 of us that left are still watching and waiting for this game to go one way or the either.

We are here






we are waiting








and we are hoping they will get it right.
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This is all just a fanboy civil war. Some are hurt that SE gave them such a crap game, the others are hurt that anyone would call it crap.
#266 Jan 16 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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If Sephiroth needed two games and a movie to flesh out to the point that Kefka was already fleshed out in FF6 alone, then doesn't that say something about character development right there?

I mean, that's like arguing that Anakin Skywalker was a more thoroughly fleshed out character than Gandalf. Of course they're more fleshed out when they have more time to be.

FF7 as a standalone game did not fully flesh out the characters, hence the need for Crisis Core and Advent Children to try to fill in the massive character gaps and plotholes that the game left. Without regard to the overall story across multiple projects, when you compare FF7 to other RPGs on a basis of "how in-depth were the characters?", it leaves it a bit lacking.

Yes, it's more fleshed out than some games like FF1 or Dragon Warrior 1 where there was little to no character development, but one of the problems with FF7 is that the characters as they stood through FF7 as a standalone product are incomplete.

Pick any game in the FF series and tack on a second game and a movie and of course the characters will have more elaborate backstories.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#267 Jan 16 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
If Sephiroth needed two games and a movie to flesh out to the point that Kefka was already fleshed out in FF6 alone, then doesn't that say something about character development right there?

I mean, that's like arguing that Anakin Skywalker was a more thoroughly fleshed out character than Gandalf. Of course they're more fleshed out when they have more time to be.

FF7 as a standalone game did not fully flesh out the characters, hence the need for Crisis Core and Advent Children to try to fill in the massive character gaps and plotholes that the game left. Without regard to the overall story across multiple projects, when you compare FF7 to other RPGs on a basis of "how in-depth were the characters?", it leaves it a bit lacking.

Yes, it's more fleshed out than some games like FF1 or Dragon Warrior 1 where there was little to no character development, but one of the problems with FF7 is that the characters as they stood through FF7 as a standalone product are incomplete.

Pick any game in the FF series and tack on a second game and a movie and of course the characters will have more elaborate backstories.


I made that very same point a while ago on a discussion about FFVII Storyline, as compared to Xenogears and FFVI.

FFVII was a good game, but not this masterpiece that people tend to make it out to be, specially in the storyline department <.<
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MUTED
#268 Jan 16 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Default
I played all FF games till 11 and then 14. Loved them all besides FF9. FF6,7 AND 8 are my favorite of all series.
#269 Jan 16 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alright, but I'm not using other material to define Sephiroth.

And your use of the word "need" is kind of silly. You think they made more FF7 junk because they needed to define the original story (or any of the characters)? You must see how ridiculous that is because most of these add-on scenarios have nothing to do with anything. They are all blatant fan service to make money. I personally wish none of them existed. As I said at one point I actually prefer the subtlety of VII.

I realize Kefka became a god. I was merely contrasting their "origin" story. Being infused with magic snapped Kef and the knowledge of being infused with Jenova cells snapped Seph. What happened after that moment can be what you use to define who you like better but my point is they're both pretty similar.

Anyway - about Seph's motivation (again) I think you're assuming he made a conscious decision and I'm assuming Jenova's cells awoke in him and start influencing his thoughts and actions. I'm not sure if there is evidence to prove either in the game (it's been a decade at least since I played it) but it makes more sense to assume that Jenova is powerful enough to warp Seph to its will and use him as a reincarnation of itself - a more powerful one, possibly. I think this is implied but it's never definitively covered by any of the media (though the game itself is all I care about in defining characters and plot elements).

I'm not saying you have to like Seph more. I was simply explaining his motivation to destroy the Planet to people who think there was none. I prefer Seph's motivation to Kef's but I don't say Kef didn't have one.
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#270 Jan 16 2011 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Sephiroth

I've come into this thread too late; not even going to bother.

To OP: your children will never enjoy the classics, be they literature or gaming, without a contemporary adaptation, remake or reboot. These reboots will typically scrap everything you know about the source material except for some names and locations. You'll be disappointed.
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#271 Jan 16 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Default
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Yes I am totally sure Advent Children and Crisis Core we made to "flesh out the story" and not because they realized they were sitting on a potential cashcow with FF7 and how popular it was in consideration to the rest of the series

:rolleyes:

What really bothers me is that FF7 was most peoples first FF then they play the others and get the elitist FF fan attitude that "omgz ff7 suqz man, im so cool I like FF4 beta", Get off your high horse plox.
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#272 Jan 16 2011 at 5:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Clearly I need to clarify my last post for people who have never read any of my other posts.

Kirutaru wrote:
Alright, but I'm not using other material to define Sephiroth.

And your use of the word "need" is kind of silly. You think they made more FF7 junk because they needed to define the original story (or any of the characters)? You must see how ridiculous that is because most of these add-on scenarios have nothing to do with anything. They are all blatant fan service to make money. I personally wish none of them existed. As I said at one point I actually prefer the subtlety of VII.


I thought FFVII's story was average, the characters were average. Nothing spectacular. Go back a few pages and you'll note I put FF7 somewhere below the middle of my list; it was nowhere near my favorite. I thought the characters were one dimensional and their personality felt kind of empty; the character with the most background and history was shish-ke-bobbed and chucked in the nearest lake before the end of disk 1.

I liked the materia system, and the game was okay, but it is nowhere near my favorite. I'm also well aware that CC and AC were fanservice and an attempt to print money off of FF7 fanboys and fangirls.

I've posted these statistics before, but according to ALL of GameFAQs Character battles, Sephiroth and Cloud are the ONLY FF characters to ever appear in the top two, and only two characters from any other FF game other than Cloud and Sephiroth ever appeared in the top four, once each. Cloud and Sephiroth aren't even included in character battles anymore because people have such a ***** for them that they automatically win.

The only exception was Gamespot's best villain battle where 4chan brought the full force of /b/ and more proxies than you can shake a stick at to drive Raam to victory over Sephiroth in victory in round one for no reason other than to aggravate fanboys. Of course they also were responsible for driving Bub and Bob to victory over Sonic as well in the heroes battle. Good 'ol /b/.

At any rate, while I won't say FF7 was a -bad- game, it was overrated. And by "overrated", I mean exactly what overrated means: People think the game was way better than it actually was.

And now, I'm going to have to deal with someone who disregards the meaning of the word "overrated" and is going to start in on some long *** diatribe about how FF7 was some magical masterpiece of perfection, since you made me have to hash this all out.

tylerbee wrote:
Yes I am totally sure Advent Children and Crisis Core we made to "flesh out the story" and not because they realized they were sitting on a potential cashcow with FF7 and how popular it was in consideration to the rest of the series

:rolleyes:

What really bothers me is that FF7 was most peoples first FF then they play the others and get the elitist FF fan attitude that "omgz ff7 suqz man, im so cool I like FF4 beta", Get off your high horse plox.


First, what I said above.

Second, my first FF was FF4 and my favorites are 12, 6, and 4 in that order. I would actually say the opposite, that I can not think of anyone whose first FF was 7 who said that their favorite FF was any FF -other- than FF7. Everyone I've ever talked to whose first FF was 7 would defend to the death that FF7 was the greatest FF of all time, and some would go so far as to tout it as the greatest RPG ever made. I've never actually met anyone whose first FF was 7 or later who would say that they liked 1-6 better. Nearly all of the people I've known whose first FF game was Playstation 1 or later are nearly all unlikely to even TRY an NES/SNES era FF game because "omg the graphics are terrible".
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#273 Jan 16 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Second, my first FF was FF4 and my favorites are 12, 6, and 4 in that order. I would actually say the opposite, that I can not think of anyone whose first FF was 7 who said that their favorite FF was any FF -other- than FF7. Everyone I've ever talked to whose first FF was 7 would defend to the death that FF7 was the greatest FF of all time, and some would go so far as to tout it as the greatest RPG ever made. I've never actually met anyone whose first FF was 7 or later who would say that they liked 1-6 better. Nearly all of the people I've known whose first FF game was Playstation 1 or later are nearly all unlikely to even TRY an NES/SNES era FF game because "omg the graphics are terrible".

I think i make that exception. My first FF game was FF7, and in fact was one of the first rpgs I've ever played. But shortly after, i got my hands on 4,6, and 3, and i overwhelmingly loved number 4 the most. To this day, my favorite FFs of all time are 4,10 (I get a lot of crap for this one), and 7 in that order. But just because i like number 4 better, its not because im an "elitist FF fan", whatever the **** that means. I loved ff7 (and still do), its just that i liked 4 better.

Now, i can't speak for number 7 being overrated though, because at the time it did seem like the greatest creation of anything ever.


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 7:23pm by KingKon
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Aurelius wrote:
I too recall the days of my childhood when an empty cardboard box and a little imagination could be one of the most entertaining things in the world. Of course, as my experiences evolved so too did my interests and my tastes in entertainment and while I could probably still find limited entertainment value in a large enough empty cardboard box, I certainly wouldn't pay someone a monthly fee for the privilege of access to it.
#274 Jan 16 2011 at 7:31 PM Rating: Default
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@ Kirutaru

Did sephritoh had motive's ? Yes, where they GREAT motive's ? NOPE!

He was all over the place, first he was a YES SIR! soldier for shinra, and was a pretty decent man, then he found out the was an enhanced human with the cells of an ancient, and went ape **** lock himself down on some basement, came out to claim the world back to it's rightful owner's(The Ancient's) then he went got his *** whopped by some lvl 1 grunt, went into a little vacation in the lifestream, learned that he was actually enhanced with the cells of an alien that wanted to destroy/devour the world, and what does he does ? he changed his mind YET again, and now he wants to rule the world as it's god, he got beat, toke another vacation, and came back in AC and what is his plan now ? HE CHANGED HIS MIND AGAIN! Now he wants to use the planet as a vessel to travel the Cosmos!!!

The only thing i agree with you is that sephiroth is kefka 2.0 but full of fail, and not so epic, besides his looks and that big bad sword he got
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#275 Jan 16 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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KingKon wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Second, my first FF was FF4 and my favorites are 12, 6, and 4 in that order. I would actually say the opposite, that I can not think of anyone whose first FF was 7 who said that their favorite FF was any FF -other- than FF7. Everyone I've ever talked to whose first FF was 7 would defend to the death that FF7 was the greatest FF of all time, and some would go so far as to tout it as the greatest RPG ever made. I've never actually met anyone whose first FF was 7 or later who would say that they liked 1-6 better. Nearly all of the people I've known whose first FF game was Playstation 1 or later are nearly all unlikely to even TRY an NES/SNES era FF game because "omg the graphics are terrible".

I think i make that exception. My first FF game was FF7, and in fact was one of the first rpgs I've ever played. But shortly after, i got my hands on 4,6, and 3, and i overwhelmingly loved number 4 the most. To this day, my favorite FFs of all time are 4,10 (I get a lot of crap for this one), and 7 in that order. But just because i like number 4 better, its not because im an "elitist FF fan", whatever the **** that means. I loved ff7 (and still do), its just that i liked 4 better.

Now, i can't speak for number 7 being overrated though, because at the time it did seem like the greatest creation of anything ever.


Edited, Jan 16th 2011 7:23pm by KingKon


You're definitely the exception, and I'm sure you're not the only one, which is why I didn't describe that in absolutes such as "nobody" or "everybody", because for every rule there's an exception.

FF7 was a good game, on its own merits. It was enjoyable and I'd definitely play it again, which is more than I can say for some games.

Good game? Definitely. Great game? Maybe. Best game ever? Hardly. Many would argue that point to the ends of the Earth though.

I'll freely admit that I wouldn't mind playing a remake of FF7, but if the CEO of SE came to -me- and said "We can remake three Final Fantasy titles in current gen graphics and graphically reddone this that and the other" and it was my -personal- decision... FF7 would have to take a back seat to FF6 and FF4. I'd put FF7 as #3 on that list I suppose.
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#276 Jan 16 2011 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, they did remake #4 for the ds. Imagine a complete redo of all the past FF games, to look like FFXIII? I would buy them.

Also, did you guys hear about the new upcoming FF game? I read somewhere that a dev let loose that there is a FFXIII-2 in progress. Hopefully they redesign the fighting system as well.
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Aurelius wrote:
I too recall the days of my childhood when an empty cardboard box and a little imagination could be one of the most entertaining things in the world. Of course, as my experiences evolved so too did my interests and my tastes in entertainment and while I could probably still find limited entertainment value in a large enough empty cardboard box, I certainly wouldn't pay someone a monthly fee for the privilege of access to it.
#277 Jan 16 2011 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If Sephiroth needed two games and a movie to flesh out to the point that Kefka was already fleshed out in FF6 alone, then doesn't that say something about character development right there?


I see this fallacy a lot. These sequels/prequels were not NEEDED to flesh out anything in FF7. Players wanted them, so SE made them. Players desperately wanted a sequel to FF6, too (remember the hype following that tech demo for the N64?). Players generally want sequels to games they love. It has nothing to do with need. Why SE chose to do so many for 7, but not 6? I don't know, probably due to popularity (and money).

I see now that this was already addressed by others, but I already wrote it :x

Quote:
FF7 as a standalone game did not fully flesh out the characters, hence the need for Crisis Core and Advent Children to try to fill in the massive character gaps and plotholes that the game left. Without regard to the overall story across multiple projects, when you compare FF7 to other RPGs on a basis of "how in-depth were the characters?", it leaves it a bit lacking.


At the very least, it did just as good a job of it that the games before its time had.

Quote:
Pick any game in the FF series and tack on a second game and a movie and of course the characters will have more elaborate backstories.


That's true, but they didn't. And that's why FF7 has a more fleshed out world and characters than others. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, but that is the reason why I think it would be a better remake than others.

Granted much of FF7's appeal was a contextual, temporary appeal that came with a technological revolution (sprites to 3D), most games of the past are really only great masterpieces with respect to the time of their release. FF7's graphics were unfortunately not as timeless as some earlier games, either. All that aside, I really think that FF7 is just as good a game as FF6.

I could argue that FF7 was the greatest game/RPG ever. I won't, because I don't think it is, but I think it's close enough that I could do so in good conscious. Even immediately after playing it, both my brother and I struggled for a long time to decide whether we liked 6 or 7 better.
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#278 Jan 16 2011 at 11:18 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Quote:
If Sephiroth needed two games and a movie to flesh out to the point that Kefka was already fleshed out in FF6 alone, then doesn't that say something about character development right there?


I see this fallacy a lot. These sequels/prequels were not NEEDED to flesh out anything in FF7. Players wanted them, so SE made them. Players desperately wanted a sequel to FF6, too (remember the hype following that tech demo for the N64?). Players generally want sequels to games they love. It has nothing to do with need. Why SE chose to do so many for 7, but not 6? I don't know, probably due to popularity (and money).

I see now that this was already addressed by others, but I already wrote it :x


When I said "needed" I didn't mean "needed" in the sense that "the world would have exploded had it not happened", I meant it in the sense of "this is what they ended up doing", as in "I needed to go to the store to get milk". I didn't -NEED- milk, but I wanted milk and so I went to the store and got it.

Perhaps I'm confusing the situation further. I knew what I meant but perhaps had a poor choice of verbage on my end. Since multiple people misunderstood me, I should have been more clear in the first place.

Kachi wrote:
Quote:
FF7 as a standalone game did not fully flesh out the characters, hence the need for Crisis Core and Advent Children to try to fill in the massive character gaps and plotholes that the game left. Without regard to the overall story across multiple projects, when you compare FF7 to other RPGs on a basis of "how in-depth were the characters?", it leaves it a bit lacking.


At the very least, it did just as good a job of it that the games before its time had.


Eh... Okay, yeah, I'll give you that. I concede one could just as easily pick apart character flaws in any game or movie if one really wanted to. It's not like the characters lacked any sense of emotion or motive, but they weren't exactly the perfect flawless models of character development and backstory that some particularly rabid fans tend to imply they are.

I'm not lumping you in on that; you seem to be the biggest FF7 fan in most threads that mention FF7 and I knew I would end up talking with you at some point. Fortunately, you're the type to make reasonable points and not get all crazy. :)

Kachi wrote:
Quote:
Pick any game in the FF series and tack on a second game and a movie and of course the characters will have more elaborate backstories.


That's true, but they didn't. And that's why FF7 has a more fleshed out world and characters than others. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, but that is the reason why I think it would be a better remake than others.

Granted much of FF7's appeal was a contextual, temporary appeal that came with a technological revolution (sprites to 3D), most games of the past are really only great masterpieces with respect to the time of their release. FF7's graphics were unfortunately not as timeless as some earlier games, either. All that aside, I really think that FF7 is just as good a game as FF6.

I could argue that FF7 was the greatest game/RPG ever. I won't, because I don't think it is, but I think it's close enough that I could do so in good conscious. Even immediately after playing it, both my brother and I struggled for a long time to decide whether we liked 6 or 7 better.


For one, it's pretty obvious that FF7 is the most popular FF title. Second place is probably 10. So from a money making standpoint, FF7 sequels and movies are going to make more money than remakes or sequels of other titles. Perfect example: Why do you think that Crisis Core got released as a proper game for a regular console and FF4 After Years was on WiiWare? Because Square is well aware that FF7 will sell like hot cakes. Kinda goes back to my usual WoW argument that this doesn't prove or disprove that the game is good or bad, all it proves is that the game is extremely popular.

6 and 7 are different games, mostly due to the generational gap between their graphics. They both had good stories in their own right. I don't mind accepting the opinion that FF7 was a good game when it's coming from someone for whom 7 was not their first, because then they're not blinded by nostalgia, nor are they biased against the precursors because of the graphics.

Don't get me wrong, if someone played FFX and said that was their favorite without giving any PS1 or earlier titles a try, I'd have to shrug off their opinion as well. But this all goes back to the fact that I think people overrate graphics when it comes to a game's quality of late and I'm getting sick of the newer generations of gamers who are unwilling to give older games a fair shake.

On an unrelated note, I asked my fiancee what her first FF was and what her favorites were. She said her first was 8 and that her favorites were 4, 8, 10, and 12 in that order. She said she got bored of 7 around the beginning of disk 2 Smiley: lol Actually, now I feel like I should make her play 7 because it isn't that bad of a game. But I digress; I wasn't really trying to make any point or prove anything with that bit.
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#279 Jan 16 2011 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if you're implying or assuming FF7 is my first FF.

I'm at an odd place because I feel like I'm being argued with when no one is arguing with me at the same time. Ostia just saying random junk as always that has no relevance.

Someone said Seph had no motive. I explained how he did have a motive.

Ostia you're still saying Sephiroth had free will and chose has actions.
I'm saying he didn't.

I'm saying once he made contact with Jenova, Jenova was at the helm.

Same thing happened in Advent Children, though trying to explain anything in Advent Children is a dangerous slope to attempt. The whole movie is a bizarre sequence of flashy action scenes loosely strung together by someone who got a D- in plot writing class.

FF7 is not my favorite FF, nor was it my first. I also never implied Seph was better than Kef (though in my personal opinion, he is but simply because he has long hair and Masamune which is pretty superficial; I'm not big on insanity or clowns, unless they're Heath Ledger's Joker). I never implied FF7 was anything. Simply explaining Sephiroth's motive to anyone out there who doesn't understand.

I didn't understand Kefka's motive for a long time. Then it all fell into place one day. I still prefer Sephiroth, though, because I like the allusion to him being Christ/Anti-Christ of the Planet. I think it's an interesting symbolic tie-in.

Edit: To reiterate I'm not trying to convince anyone that Seph is in any way better than any other villain, but I am just expressing what I think about him. You can feel free to argue (like you always do) but I'm not trying to change opinions or start arguments - and you're certainly not going to change my mind. ^^ Unless you can spin Kefka in a way where he's not an insane clown which is what I don't like about him. Haha. GL with that, though.

Edit #2: FF4 is also my favorite. FF7/6/10 have varying struggles for 2nd place depending on lunar cycles and whether the sun is passing through Ophiuchus and such. FF4 (however) was not my first FF either. That would be FF1.

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 12:47am by Kirutaru

Edited, Jan 17th 2011 12:52am by Kirutaru
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#280 Jan 17 2011 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Eh... Okay, yeah, I'll give you that. I concede one could just as easily pick apart character flaws in any game or movie if one really wanted to. It's not like the characters lacked any sense of emotion or motive, but they weren't exactly the perfect flawless models of character development and backstory that some particularly rabid fans tend to imply they are.


Oh, definitely not. I'll be the first to admit that a few of the characters really just lacked any notable development or even a strong justification for their role in the plot. However, that was standard in RPGs (and really, still is), and frankly, is relatively realistic in light of all that goes on in an RPG. I'm not one to hold FF7 way above other games-- I would say that having to choose my favorite, it's a contender, along with every other game at the top of my list, as well as a few others (like Earthbound).

In that sense, I can agree that some people overrate FF7, just like people overrate many things, whether anime (Naruto, Inuyasha, Pokemon, etc.), literature (Twilight), and really any other form of media. There are always fanatics. However, FF7 is still hugely popular even outside of those people, and I don't think that it's generally overrated.

I agree that people have a hard time backpedaling on graphics. Sometimes it's easier when the graphics are "retro" like they are in the case of NES/SNES graphics. I think in that sense, FF7 and FF8 are in a tough spot because they will never enjoy that privilege-- the graphics were impressive for only a fleeting moment, and the technology developed too quickly after the advent of 3D play to allow players to acquire a sense of nostalgia about them. I think that also makes them better candidates for remakes, personally, because graphically I think they stand the most to gain. A game like FF4, while it would be cool to see what they could do with it graphically, is already well-suited to sprites. Though it would also probably be my fourth choice for a remake (after 7, 8, and 6).

____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#281 Jan 17 2011 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I will agree that the first wave of 3D graphic games on the PS1 and N64 suffer from being stuck in that little pit where they look too bad to be good and too good to be bad. They fall uncomfortably between the "retro" graphics and the "modern" graphics. 7 and 8 share this flaw; 9 still looks comparatively good, considering.

I'd love to see a full 3D remake of 4, 5, or 6, using the same level of graphics that 11/12 or 13/14 are used. Actually, I might even have to say I'd like to see 5 remade just because it hasn't been remade yet.
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#282 Jan 17 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Default
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