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#52 Jan 06 2011 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
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SumoBear wrote:
Wow 40 plus replies in approx 2 days that's impressive. I started this subject. I'm pretty new to posting on forums but I can't believe how many personal attacks I already got. Do people actually talk like this to others in real life.


That's the internet for you. :)
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#53 Jan 06 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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I have this feeling that little changes will be made as time goes on, effectively pushing the retainer wards closer and closer to an actual auction house, until it actually IS an auction house, and the market wards areas will be obsolete. At that point, we are looking at just summonable NPC's that we can access from the adventurer's guild, with which we can "list goods on the AH", store and retrieve items, and get gil and items as delivery from both the AH and other players.

That's my prediction, because it keeps the development costs to minimum without overhauling and throwing out everything that has already been done.
#54 Jan 06 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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SumoBear wrote:
Wow 40 plus replies in approx 2 days that's impressive. I started this subject. I'm pretty new to posting on forums but I can't believe how many personal attacks I already got. Do people actually talk like this to others in real life.
I didn't say I was technically minded so straight away I don't have a brain and a few people would rate me on this.
Thank you for all the genuine replies.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 10:56am by SumoBear


It's nothing personal but if you just starting out in forums be advised that search funtion is your friend.

This is a post which has been much debated and although with strongly oposing sides, with the improvents on the game, it has been achieved a compromise and most people are now happy with it and ficusing on other issues.
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#55 Jan 06 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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tylerbee wrote:
Leave the SP system (buff it for parties, I actually wish they'd stayed with the random but fixed it).

You strip out all the uniqueness they are trying to add, you have another clone of what is popular on the market. And we all know if you try to clone the WoW model, you're going to lose.


Yeah! Predictable experience gains are for WOW CLONES! Rarrr!
Just like the Auction House system that FFXI pioneered! *foams at mouth*
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#56 Jan 06 2011 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Leave the SP system (buff it for parties, I actually wish they'd stayed with the random but fixed it).

You strip out all the uniqueness they are trying to add, you have another clone of what is popular on the market. And we all know if you try to clone the WoW model, you're going to lose.


Yeah! Predictable experience gains are for WOW CLONES! Rarrr!
Just like the Auction House system that FFXI pioneered! *foams at mouth*


I have to agree here; if there's one thing that skillup parties, crafting, and drop rates in XI have taught us is that "random" is only fun until it starts shafting you.
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#57 Jan 06 2011 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:
Wloire wrote:
Players are completely capable of selling and buying goods with the current system. They don't have enough stuff to do otherwise.


Players are completely capable of selling and buying goods with no Market Ward system at all, it's called shout and trade...doesn't mean people want to. Basically your saying to ignore the fact that Crafting is a main job just like DoW/M and give more stuff for them to do and in the mean time the crafting community can continue to suffer. I'm sure lots of crafters out there are frustrated with trying to track down ingredients that just don't get sold due to the type of system in place. If there was an AH a lot of items you'd normally NPC, would start hitting the AH, just because an AH promotes a MUCH higher turnover rate for goods sold. When you reduce the time it takes a buyer to find what he wants, you reduce the time it takes to sell an item, allowing "less worthwhile" products to become "worthwhile" even if only for the reason of 'I have nothing else to list...might as well put up this item...'


Again this market is very crafter oriented. The reason you can't find the mats you want is probably because there aren't enough people out there picking up the mats you need at your level, otherwise I don't know what your talking about. There is constantly Mole Sinew/Cotton Bolls/Marmot Pelts plaguing the market. As a carpenter/fletcher, I have yet to have trouble finding the wood/arrowheads/feathers that I needed without having to travel to another city.

An AH wouldn't promote the sale of ingredients any better. The only advantage to the AH is the ability to mix and match what you sell so that you can put 1 Marmot Pelt, 9 fire crystals, 1 brass cesti. Either way if that marmot pelt only sells for 200 gil, then he or she isn't going to waste their time selling it on the AH. Have you actually tried selling a useful item? I've yet to not have my arrow/wood sell within 3-4 hours. What about the menders ward? Thats not something done quite as easily with an AH but the system is excellent. I leave all my gear their overnight with 3-5k rewards and come back to fully repaired gear in the morning. The market wards are in excellent shape currently.

Grand Master Alchemist StateAlchemist2 wrote:

But nothing says we have to choose between the two...
the simplest solution imo would be throw the AH on with some content at the same time and make everyone happy.


You're really not listening. I hate to be rude but it just isn't "simple". There are only so many resources to go around. SE only has so many developers working on the project. Otherwise they would have released the UI improvement patch on week 2 after release, market ward search on week 3 after release and the next expansion would already be on it's way to stores. If they take time to add an Auction House then they won't have time for anything but the simplest content. If you take time for one project then you are taking time from another.


#58 Jan 06 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Default
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KaneKitty wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Leave the SP system (buff it for parties, I actually wish they'd stayed with the random but fixed it).

You strip out all the uniqueness they are trying to add, you have another clone of what is popular on the market. And we all know if you try to clone the WoW model, you're going to lose.


Yeah! Predictable experience gains are for WOW CLONES! Rarrr!
Just like the Auction House system that FFXI pioneered! *foams at mouth*


FFXI was innovative when it came out, now it is not. The AH back then was something new and exciting, now it is not.

FFXIV's features are innovative and new, but apparently innovative and different isn't something MMO players enjoy anymore, well I shouldn't say MMO players, I should say WoW babies.
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#59 Jan 06 2011 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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tylerbee wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Leave the SP system (buff it for parties, I actually wish they'd stayed with the random but fixed it).

You strip out all the uniqueness they are trying to add, you have another clone of what is popular on the market. And we all know if you try to clone the WoW model, you're going to lose.


Yeah! Predictable experience gains are for WOW CLONES! Rarrr!
Just like the Auction House system that FFXI pioneered! *foams at mouth*


FFXI was innovative when it came out, now it is not. The AH back then was something new and exciting, now it is not.

FFXIV's features are innovative and new, but apparently innovative and different isn't something MMO players enjoy anymore, well I shouldn't say MMO players, I should say WoW babies.


That's not really an accurate statement, since there are many people who don't want to play WoW who dislike FFXIV.
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#60 Jan 06 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
FFXI was innovative when it came out, now it is not. The AH back then was something new and exciting, now it is not.

FFXIV's features are innovative and new, but apparently innovative and different isn't something MMO players enjoy anymore, well I shouldn't say MMO players, I should say WoW babies.


Calling half-assed and tedious game mechanics "innovative" doesn't make them any less half-assed or tedious.

Just because something is "new and exciting" doesn't make it good. I don't care how much you hate WoW, the AH system works, plain and simple. It's accesible, it's easy to use, and it's effecient.

Maybe the Market Ward system works for you, however I do not enjoy running around and warping for hours searching for materials to for one of the many crafts I'm trying to level, or wasting anima to check other cities only to be disappointed and not find anything I'm looking for. There is no excuse for these kinds of unnecessary time sinks. When I do find materials, it is usually only a few stacks and I either get lucky that no one saw them before me or they are ridiculously overpriced. Plenty of crafters I talk to feel this way.

They traded in functionality to curb RMT, and it is back firing. RMT is still existent, and it always will be. The only thing they accomplished was annoying their player base.

P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.
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#61 Jan 06 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Invalice wrote:
P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.

Correction: WoW WAS a well made game that did a lot of things right.
#62 Jan 06 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Invalice wrote:
P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.

Correction: WoW WAS a well made game that did a lot of things right.


Wait, wait, I need to get my popcorn first.
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#63 Jan 06 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Invalice wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
FFXI was innovative when it came out, now it is not. The AH back then was something new and exciting, now it is not.

FFXIV's features are innovative and new, but apparently innovative and different isn't something MMO players enjoy anymore, well I shouldn't say MMO players, I should say WoW babies.


Calling half-assed and tedious game mechanics "innovative" doesn't make them any less half-assed or tedious.

Just because something is "new and exciting" doesn't make it good. I don't care how much you hate WoW, the AH system works, plain and simple. It's accesible, it's easy to use, and it's effecient.

Maybe the Market Ward system works for you, however I do not enjoy running around and warping for hours searching for materials to for one of the many crafts I'm trying to level, or wasting anima to check other cities only to be disappointed and not find anything I'm looking for. There is no excuse for these kinds of unnecessary time sinks. When I do find materials, it is usually only a few stacks and I either get lucky that no one saw them before me or they are ridiculously overpriced. Plenty of crafters I talk to feel this way.

They traded in functionality to curb RMT, and it is back firing. RMT is still existent, and it always will be. The only thing they accomplished was annoying their player base.

P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.


So an AH works better because its "accessible, easy to use and efficient"... interesting opinion.

So you would agree that WoW's questing is "accessible, easy to do and efficient" also? Which means FFXIV should have WoW's questing system implemented because "it works"?

Or am I missing something here?

PS: I am not insulting WoW in any way shape or form, i'm just saying there are MMO players who've been in the game for a long time and WoW babies - people who think they are MMO players when WoW is the only MMO they've touched, this type of person then comes to message boards for X mmo and ***** all over it because they haven't experienced much in the genre.
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#64 Jan 06 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
KaneKitty wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Leave the SP system (buff it for parties, I actually wish they'd stayed with the random but fixed it).

You strip out all the uniqueness they are trying to add, you have another clone of what is popular on the market. And we all know if you try to clone the WoW model, you're going to lose.


Yeah! Predictable experience gains are for WOW CLONES! Rarrr!
Just like the Auction House system that FFXI pioneered! *foams at mouth*


FFXI was innovative when it came out, now it is not. The AH back then was something new and exciting, now it is not.

FFXIV's features are innovative and new, but apparently innovative and different isn't something MMO players enjoy anymore, well I shouldn't say MMO players, I should say WoW babies.


That's not really an accurate statement, since there are many people who don't want to play WoW who dislike FFXIV.


I was making the implication that WoW players should stick to WoW, because they won't appreciate or enjoy "real MMOs" real meaning new, innovative and exciting, where are cornerstones of the genre. If they don't appreciate changes to the way things are done in this genre, then they're not going to find anything they like.

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#65 Jan 06 2011 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Invalice wrote:
P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.

Correction: WoW WAS a well made game that did a lot of things right.


Heh, the things that made it great are still there, they are just like 7 years old at this point. its plateaued off and people have got pretty good at it now.
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#66 Jan 06 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Invalice wrote:
P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.

Correction: WoW WAS a well made game that did a lot of things right.


Heh, the things that made it great are still there, they are just like 7 years old at this point. its plateaued off and people have got pretty good at it now.


Its going back to how it used to be. Once they ditch the badge/justice point system then I won't have a thing in the world to complain about.

However, bad players gotta get dere epix cuz dey pay subz tew! So I thoroughly doubt it will ever get "fixed".
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#67 Jan 06 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Invalice wrote:
P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.

Correction: WoW WAS a well made game that did a lot of things right.


Heh, the things that made it great are still there, they are just like 7 years old at this point. its plateaued off and people have got pretty good at it now.

Not really. They ruined world PVP, they ruined PVP in general, and PVE is a joke. Every terrible player can get epics. The only fun part of WoW now is questing, but even that's gone because questing's useless now when you can LFD and get better exp/gear.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Wait, wait, I need to get my popcorn first.

I'll gladly argue WoW's faults since I've played its endgame from release to the end of WotLK, and I was there for every *****-up Blizz has ever made just to cater to the masses.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 4:05pm by SoumaKyou
#68 Jan 06 2011 at 3:06 PM Rating: Default
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Thats where the money is

The worlds most popular MMO catering to the masses

Who woulda thunk it?
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#69 Jan 06 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Thats where the money is

The worlds most popular MMO catering to the masses

Who woulda thunk it?

I hear catering to the masses makes it good, amirite?

That's like saying clothes from Wal-Mart are better quality than clothes from Gucci because everyone can afford it (no, I'm not saying XIV is Gucci).
#70 Jan 06 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Thats where the money is

The worlds most popular MMO catering to the masses

Who woulda thunk it?

I hear catering to the masses makes it good, amirite?

That's like saying clothes from Wal-Mart are better quality than clothes from Gucci because everyone can afford it (no, I'm not saying XIV is Gucci).


Oh, I absolutely hate it because I am not "the masses"

I just respect what is logical in this selfish, greedy corporate world

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#71 Jan 06 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
So an AH works better because its "accessible, easy to use and efficient"... interesting opinion.

So you would agree that WoW's questing is "accessible, easy to do and efficient" also? Which means FFXIV should have WoW's questing system implemented because "it works"?

Or am I missing something here?


So a Market Ward system is better because it's tedious, time consuming, and inefficient? Interesting opinion.

Yes, it does make it better. What exactly does the Market Ward system do BETTER than an AH, and if it does do anything better does it outweigh everything that it does worse? I have yet to find any redeeming qualities about this system, and I am someone who primarily enjoys crafting and dabbling in the economy when it comes to MMOs.

I never said anything about quests, so I'm not even going to bother responding to your analogy. The leve system has it's own issues to be address on their own merits. It has nothing to do with the AH.
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#72 Jan 06 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I buy my clothes from Ebay ^^
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#73 Jan 06 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
Oh, I absolutely hate it because I am not "the masses"

I just respect what is logical in this selfish, greedy corporate world

I respect it too. ****, I understand it completely.

What irks me is people claiming games should be like WoW because it has the most subscriptions and is therefore the best quality.
#74 Jan 06 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Oh, I absolutely hate it because I am not "the masses"

I just respect what is logical in this selfish, greedy corporate world

I respect it too. ****, I understand it completely.

What irks me is people claiming games should be like WoW because it has the most subscriptions and is therefore the best quality.


Indeed. Unless someone is prepared to argue that Justin Bieber's music is the best, Budweiser produces the best alcohol, McDonalds produces the highest quality food in the world, Titanic was one of the best movies ever, etc... I was already beaten to the Walmart part of the analogy.

Most popular means most profitable, but it doesn't inherently imply "highest quality". I'm not saying that nobody likes the "most popular" product; obviously a lot of people like it or it wouldn't be popular; I'm saying that there -are- higher quality, less popular alternatives to the "most popular" thing, be it a movie, a place to eat, a place to shop, or a video game.

I'm also not saying that most popular automatically implies a low quality either; just that a company sometimes need to decide: Do I want the most PROFITABLE product, or do I want the highest QUALITY product?
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#75 Jan 06 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Most popular means most profitable, but it doesn't inherently imply "highest quality". I'm not saying that nobody likes the "most popular" product; obviously a lot of people like it or it wouldn't be popular; I'm saying that there -are- higher quality, less popular alternatives to the "most popular" thing, be it a movie, a place to eat, a place to shop, or a video game.

I'm also not saying that most popular automatically implies a low quality either; just that a company sometimes need to decide: Do I want the most PROFITABLE product, or do I want the highest QUALITY product?

I agree completely. WoW was definitely a game with a great balance of both profit and quality. It was tough watching its quality go down the drain in favor of profit over the years. I know I'm not the only one who thinks so, since by playing for so long, I hardly know anyone on any server who's been there for all three expansions.
#77 Jan 06 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Most popular means most profitable, but it doesn't inherently imply "highest quality". I'm not saying that nobody likes the "most popular" product; obviously a lot of people like it or it wouldn't be popular; I'm saying that there -are- higher quality, less popular alternatives to the "most popular" thing, be it a movie, a place to eat, a place to shop, or a video game.

I'm also not saying that most popular automatically implies a low quality either; just that a company sometimes need to decide: Do I want the most PROFITABLE product, or do I want the highest QUALITY product?

I agree completely. WoW was definitely a game with a great balance of both profit and quality. It was tough watching its quality go down the drain in favor of profit over the years. I know I'm not the only one who thinks so, since by playing for so long, I hardly know anyone on any server who's been there for all three expansions.


I've been there for all three expansions, WOTLK was a stab in the heart and I left after Ulduar. They are trying to rectify it with Cataclysm but ultimately the motivations are going to be keeping the noobs and casuals happy, for obvious reasons.

The only reason I stick around is because my partner is so obsessed with it. Better we play an MMO together than no MMO together.
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#78 Jan 06 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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tylerbee wrote:
They are trying to rectify it with Cataclysm but ultimately the motivations are going to be keeping the noobs and casuals happy, for obvious reasons.

I love hearing stories about WotLK babies failing hard at CC in the new dungeons. Also Pallies 2-shotting people and Mages perma-freeze + Shatter circle of death.
#79 Jan 06 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
They are trying to rectify it with Cataclysm but ultimately the motivations are going to be keeping the noobs and casuals happy, for obvious reasons.

I love hearing stories about WotLK babies failing hard at CC in the new dungeons. Also Pallies 2-shotting people and Mages perma-freeze + Shatter circle of death.


My favorite is when people whine about content being so hard when its laughably easy comparative to pre-wrath, then threatening to stop their subscriptions.

Noone cares mouthbreather, lol.
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#80 Jan 06 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Default
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tylerbee wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
They are trying to rectify it with Cataclysm but ultimately the motivations are going to be keeping the noobs and casuals happy, for obvious reasons.

I love hearing stories about WotLK babies failing hard at CC in the new dungeons. Also Pallies 2-shotting people and Mages perma-freeze + Shatter circle of death.


My favorite is when people whine about content being so hard when its laughably easy comparative to pre-wrath, then threatening to stop their subscriptions.

Noone cares mouthbreather, lol.

It's exactly this mentality that causes these same people to look at other games and complain that it's not ezmode press-button-to-win and claim it sucks.

Actually, it doesn't surprise me one bit that people who complain about FFXI and XIV's leveling systems are the ones who also compare it to WoW and its carbon copies (Runes of Magic, Aion). I mean, I can't count the number of idiots in WoW who couldn't even properly get their rotation/priority down. It's like, really? How hard is it to press a sequence of buttons that you could customize to 1, 2, and 3?

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 5:16pm by SoumaKyou
#81 Jan 06 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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You know the Golden Bazaar in Thanlan looks an awful like an AH. Just sayin.
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#83 Jan 06 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Invalice wrote:
P.S. I really wish people would stop throwing around WoW insults like they hold any ground. WoW is a well made game that does a lot of things right, I'm sorry you don't like it, get over it.

Correction: WoW WAS a well made game that did a lot of things right.


Wait, wait, I need to get my popcorn first.


May I steal some? This is getting good.
#85 Jan 06 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Invalice wrote:
An AH is something used to establish, operate, and maintain an in game economy; the Market Wards do a relatively bad job of this.

In your opinion. The majority of people still playing XIV have no troubles using the market wards, and the economy is starting to build. In this case, you are the minority and shouldn't speak for most players.

The whole "needing an AH to establish an economy" argument is a fallacy -- a straw man argument if you will -- as evidenced by the numerous games that strictly use the bazaar system (even ones without search functions) and have a fully functional economy. The evidence of less people wanting less of an AH and more of content is also seen, both in this thread as well as the simulated poll thread that you can find if you search.

The market wards are fine, at least until Square gives us content, since many people prefer content over an AH.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 5:56pm by SoumaKyou
#87 Jan 06 2011 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Invalice wrote:
An AH is something used to establish, operate, and maintain an in game economy; the Market Wards do a relatively bad job of this.

In your opinion. The majority of people still playing XIV have no troubles using the market wards, and the economy is starting to build. In this case, you are the minority and shouldn't speak for most players.

The whole "needing an AH to establish an economy" argument is a fallacy -- a straw man argument if you will -- as evidenced by the numerous games that strictly use the bazaar system (even ones without search functions) and have a fully functional economy. The evidence of less people wanting less of an AH and more of content is also seen, both in this thread as well as the simulated poll thread that you can find if you search.

The market wards are fine, at least until Square gives us content, since many people prefer content over an AH.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 5:56pm by SoumaKyou


Did I say you NEED an AH? No. Did I say the market wards couldn't be used to establish an economy? No.

I said that is what an AH is USED for, not that it is NEEDED, and that compared to an AH the market wards do a bad job. If you can show me differently I would love to see it. If FFXIV has a good economy than I suppose comparable MMOs that use an AH system or something similar have super economies? Because I see nothing similar here to other games I've played. This is the ONLY game I've been forced to farm because sometimes it's the only way I'm going to be able to obtain materials without playing a huge waiting game. It's also the only game I've found it necessary to NPC items because I don't have a efficient way to sell them without overflowing my inventory.

Misrepresenting what someone says is closer to a straw man argument.
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#88 Jan 06 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Default
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Invalice wrote:
tylerbee wrote:
Invalice wrote:
Quote:
Hmmm. Since you lack the mental capacity to understand the relevance of my questing analogy in relation to your comments about an auction house "being better" and also how ironic it makes the situation goes over your head, I guess we're done here


Yeah, that's a good strategy, usually when people have no argument they ignore the subject and stick to ad hominem. Definitely showing the maturity of the FF community.

Your analogy is irrelevant whether you want to think so or not. Quests are story driven content and not comparable to an AH. There are other factors that may be more important to consider than ease of use. A comparable analogy would be a delivery system (mailbox) or the UI. An AH is something used to establish, operate, and maintain an in game economy; the Market Wards do a relatively bad job of this.

My apologies that you feel the need to insult me because I didn't feel the need to explain something that should be self-evident.


Your response again shows your lack of understanding in regards to my original comment.

Please continue to respond if it makes you feel relevant, but as I said before, we are done here.


Give me a break. Drop your attitude and stop acting like you said something that went above anyones head.

sh*tty analogy is sh*tty. Own up to it and stop making yourself look worse. If you actually said anything meaningful you would address it and just not deflect my comments and questions. You're being painfully obvious.


Since you're getting upset about it, i'll try to explain to you in simple terms what I meant in my original post.

You claim an auction house is better because it is easy to use, accessible and efficient.

If these are the three defining characteristics that we must adhere to in game design then I believe other aspects of the game will be need to be looked at extensively too, including but not limited to:

- Leves
- Crafting
- Gathering
- Repairs
- Travel

The major fundamentals of this game are inefficient, time consuming and laborius. Why would the economy or market system be any different? If we're to remove the Market Wards for an AH then we shouldn't stop there. Lets scrap leves for a "on rails" questing system to make it more efficient. How about removing the material need for crafting, because that isn't accessible.

However, in being these things it has also inherited other traits such as innovative, different, interesting and new. Just like when FFXI was released and pioneered an "AH" which was new and exciting, the same thing is happening here with the market wards and many other game features (repairs etc).

Just because you or many others believe the economy should operate on a different set of rules than the rest of the game, it doesn't mean you're right. (Tip: You're not)

Better does not equal more efficient, accessible or easy to use, for argument's sake.



Edited, Jan 6th 2011 6:17pm by tylerbee
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#89 Jan 06 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Cleaned up the thread a bit. Let's keep things civil, folks.
#90 Jan 06 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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And btw, using a "majority" argument is also a fallacy. Ironically it's a fallacy that you just got done dismissing when talking about WoW, yet you think it should hold water now?

What the majority thinks doesn't make the system any less inferior.
____________________________
Cooking Mule - 97.0 + 1 + Raw Fish Handling
Leather - 99.0 + 2 + Leather Purification + Leather Ensorcellment + Tanning
Alchemy - 60.0 + Trituration
Clothcraft - 60.0 + Spinning
Woodworking - 60.0 + Lumberjack
Smithing - 60.0 + Sheeting
Boneworking - 60.0

Invalice - Bahamut
PLD - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?116392
PLD WS - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?172123
#91 Jan 06 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Invalice wrote:
Did I say you NEED an AH? No. Did I say the market wards couldn't be used to establish an economy? No.

Invalice wrote:
This is the ONLY game I've been forced to farm because sometimes it's the only way I'm going to be able to obtain materials without playing a huge waiting game. It's also the only game I've found it necessary to NPC items because I don't have a efficient way to sell them without overflowing my inventory.

You've spent this entire thread implying that an economy can't be properly established in this game with the market wards, and that only an AH could alleviate that problem, as shown in these two quotes. Implying is just as bad as actually saying it.

Invalice wrote:
compared to an AH the market wards do a bad job. If you can show me differently I would love to see it.

The fact that most people say the market wards are good enough to hold out for an AH until AFTER content says enough. You're the one choosing not to see that, and that's your own fault.

Invalice wrote:
If FFXIV has a good economy than I suppose comparable MMOs that use an AH system or something similar have super economies? Because I see nothing similar here to other games I've played.

I'm willing to bet that the only "other games" you've played were FFXI and WoW. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such asinine comments like this.

Invalice wrote:
Misrepresenting what someone says is closer to a straw man argument.

Exaggerating details, stating things as fact when they're far from it, just to try to prove your point? You're the one building the straw man.
#92 Jan 06 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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415 posts
Invalice wrote:
And btw, using a "majority" argument is also a fallacy. Ironically it's a fallacy that you just got done dismissing when talking about WoW, yet you think it should hold water now?

What the majority thinks doesn't make the system any less inferior.

The straw men... they're practically flowing from you.

You're confusing the context at which "majority" is being used. Both situations are at opposite sides of the spectrum. One is catering to THE majority for profit, while one's trying to appease A majority to save its ***.

If you've ever read about Wal-Mart, you'd know it's exactly like this. Wal-Mart (WoW) lowering prices so low that the majority have no choice but to buy from them, while the local markets (FFXIV) can't lower their prices even more so they have to try to come up with something to keep their customers. In Wal-Mart's case, they can lower their quality all they want because the "majority" only sees that they have the lowest prices. The local markets have to cater to the "majority" of their existing customers and give them something worth coming back to.

Edited, Jan 6th 2011 7:01pm by SoumaKyou
#93 Jan 06 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
You've spent this entire thread implying that an economy can't be properly established in this game with the market wards, and that only an AH could alleviate that problem, as shown in these two quotes. Implying is just as bad as actually saying it.


No, I haven't spent the entire thread implying any such thing. I've barely posted in this thread, and the only thing I've been "implying" is that the Market Wards are inferior to an AH.

SoumaKyou wrote:
The fact that most people say the market wards are good enough to hold out for an AH until AFTER content says enough. You're the one choosing not to see that, and that's your own fault.


What does this have to do with the Market Wards being relatively bad compared to an AH? Of course people are dealing with it. I'm one of those people, but that has nothing to do with what I've said in EVERY single post on this thread. The Market Wards are an INFERIOR SYSTEM. The whole reason I responded to this thread was because someone said the Market Wards were a good thing because they were "new" and "innovative." I responded because thinking something is new and innovative has nothing to do with how useful it is, especially when it is arguably a step backward from FFXI, and since then I have been arguing that the Market Wards are inferior to an AH. Or if you want me to use the same terms I used earlier, the Market Wards do a "relatively bad job compared to an AH."

I'm not sure how people willing to put up with the market wards until more content says otherwise. In fact it still shows an AH is wanted, just not right now, which doesn't contradict anything I've said.


SoumaKyou wrote:
I'm willing to bet that the only "other games" you've played were FFXI and WoW. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such asinine comments like this.


I've also played DDO. I hardly see how this makes a difference. It was simply easier to buy and sell in all three games. I'd be fine without an AH specifically, but they need a more centralized system that has good search functionality. Even if there is no price history.


SoumaKyou wrote:
Exaggerating details, stating things as fact when they're far from it, just to try to prove your point? You're the one building the straw man.


You can misrepresent what I've said and claim to know what I'm implying all you want. It doesn't make it true.

But what have I exaggerated and stated as fact? That an AH is a better system than the Market Wards? What's the point of a Market System? To buy an sell in game commodities. Are you really willing to say the Market Wards do this better than an AH? That's essentially all I've said, along with talking about how much time I spend searching for items, which is hardly an exaggeration. I probably spend more time obtaining materials than I actually spend crafting.
____________________________
Cooking Mule - 97.0 + 1 + Raw Fish Handling
Leather - 99.0 + 2 + Leather Purification + Leather Ensorcellment + Tanning
Alchemy - 60.0 + Trituration
Clothcraft - 60.0 + Spinning
Woodworking - 60.0 + Lumberjack
Smithing - 60.0 + Sheeting
Boneworking - 60.0

Invalice - Bahamut
PLD - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?116392
PLD WS - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?172123
#94 Jan 06 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
Quote:
The major fundamentals of this game are inefficient, time consuming and laborius. Why would the economy or market system be any different? If we're to remove the Market Wards for an AH then we shouldn't stop there. Lets scrap leves for a "on rails" questing system to make it more efficient. How about removing the material need for crafting, because that isn't accessible.


Leves are just as much, if not more on rails than wow/GW/LOTRO quests. You walk to a spot, they spawn mobs for you in one of a few possible spots, you go over there and kill them. There isn't even any real interaction with the game world.
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#95 Jan 06 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:
The major fundamentals of this game are inefficient, time consuming and laborius. Why would the economy or market system be any different? If we're to remove the Market Wards for an AH then we shouldn't stop there. Lets scrap leves for a "on rails" questing system to make it more efficient. How about removing the material need for crafting, because that isn't accessible.


Leves are just as much, if not more on rails than wow/GW/LOTRO quests. You walk to a spot, they spawn mobs for you in one of a few possible spots, you go over there and kill them. There isn't even any real interaction with the game world.


On rails to me means a nice flow as well, which FFXIV is missing. There is no natural progression and i'm yet to decide whether that is because it takes so long to level from doing purely leves or because it takes so long to travel to each different hub just to travel back to a main city every reset.

Regardless, it isn't half as user friendly as it could be which was my main point. The game just isn't efficient or convenient at its core so I don't understand why people would think the economy would be any different.
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#96 Jan 06 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Invalice wrote:
No, I haven't spent the entire thread implying any such thing. I've barely posted in this thread, and the only thing I've been "implying" is that the Market Wards are inferior to an AH.

I never disputed that fact, so I wonder what exactly you're arguing against.

Invalice wrote:
What does this have to do with the Market Wards being relatively bad compared to an AH? Of course people are dealing with it. I'm one of those people, but that has nothing to do with what I've said in EVERY single post on this thread. The Market Wards are an INFERIOR SYSTEM. The whole reason I responded to this thread was because someone said the Market Wards were a good thing because they were "new" and "innovative." I responded because thinking something is new and innovative has nothing to do with how useful it is, especially when it is arguably a step backward from FFXI, and since then I have been arguing that the Market Wards are inferior to an AH. Or if you want me to use the same terms I used earlier, the Market Wards do a "relatively bad job compared to an AH."

I'm not sure how people willing to put up with the market wards until more content says otherwise. In fact it still shows an AH is wanted, just not right now, which doesn't contradict anything I've said.

Again, I never disputed the fact that an AH would be superior to the wards. I've been arguing that the market wards are good enough to tide us over until we get more content, because content is more important than an AH at this point. You're trying to disprove an argument that doesn't exist.

Invalice wrote:
I've also played DDO. I hardly see how this makes a difference. It was simply easier to buy and sell in all three games. I'd be fine without an AH specifically, but they need a more centralized system that has good search functionality. Even if there is no price history.

The difference is that you haven't really been exposed to the markets of the vast majority of games out there. There are plenty of successful bazaar-based games that are doing quite successfully, and the in-game economies in these games are flourishing without an AH. I agree with you that the game needs a centralized system, but again, content is much more important at this stage.


Invalice wrote:
You can misrepresent what I've said and claim to know what I'm implying all you want. It doesn't make it true.

But what have I exaggerated and stated as fact? That an AH is a better system than the Market Wards? What's the point of a Market System? To buy an sell in game commodities. Are you really willing to say the Market Wards do this better than an AH? That's essentially all I've said, along with talking about how much time I spend searching for items, which is hardly an exaggeration. I probably spend more time obtaining materials than I actually spend crafting.

Again, you're arguing moot points. The market wards work for what they are, and so an AH is not needed in the immediate future. Your own personal experience does not dictate the experience others are having.
#97 Jan 06 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Invalice wrote:
No, I haven't spent the entire thread implying any such thing. I've barely posted in this thread, and the only thing I've been "implying" is that the Market Wards are inferior to an AH.

I never disputed that fact, so I wonder what exactly you're arguing against.

Invalice wrote:
What does this have to do with the Market Wards being relatively bad compared to an AH? Of course people are dealing with it. I'm one of those people, but that has nothing to do with what I've said in EVERY single post on this thread. The Market Wards are an INFERIOR SYSTEM. The whole reason I responded to this thread was because someone said the Market Wards were a good thing because they were "new" and "innovative." I responded because thinking something is new and innovative has nothing to do with how useful it is, especially when it is arguably a step backward from FFXI, and since then I have been arguing that the Market Wards are inferior to an AH. Or if you want me to use the same terms I used earlier, the Market Wards do a "relatively bad job compared to an AH."

I'm not sure how people willing to put up with the market wards until more content says otherwise. In fact it still shows an AH is wanted, just not right now, which doesn't contradict anything I've said.

Again, I never disputed the fact that an AH would be superior to the wards. I've been arguing that the market wards are good enough to tide us over until we get more content, because content is more important than an AH at this point. You're trying to disprove an argument that doesn't exist.

Invalice wrote:
I've also played DDO. I hardly see how this makes a difference. It was simply easier to buy and sell in all three games. I'd be fine without an AH specifically, but they need a more centralized system that has good search functionality. Even if there is no price history.

The difference is that you haven't really been exposed to the markets of the vast majority of games out there. There are plenty of successful bazaar-based games that are doing quite successfully, and the in-game economies in these games are flourishing without an AH. I agree with you that the game needs a centralized system, but again, content is much more important at this stage.


Invalice wrote:
You can misrepresent what I've said and claim to know what I'm implying all you want. It doesn't make it true.

But what have I exaggerated and stated as fact? That an AH is a better system than the Market Wards? What's the point of a Market System? To buy an sell in game commodities. Are you really willing to say the Market Wards do this better than an AH? That's essentially all I've said, along with talking about how much time I spend searching for items, which is hardly an exaggeration. I probably spend more time obtaining materials than I actually spend crafting.

Again, you're arguing moot points. The market wards work for what they are, and so an AH is not needed in the immediate future. Your own personal experience does not dictate the experience others are having.


The argument does exist because the person I initially replied to made it. I wasn't really arguing with you lol. You engaged me. I merely replied. So like you said, I'm not sure why we're arguing.

Perhaps you didn't read my previous posts in the thread before the one you quoted and replied to?
____________________________
Cooking Mule - 97.0 + 1 + Raw Fish Handling
Leather - 99.0 + 2 + Leather Purification + Leather Ensorcellment + Tanning
Alchemy - 60.0 + Trituration
Clothcraft - 60.0 + Spinning
Woodworking - 60.0 + Lumberjack
Smithing - 60.0 + Sheeting
Boneworking - 60.0

Invalice - Bahamut
PLD - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?116392
PLD WS - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?172123
#98 Jan 06 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Invalice wrote:
The argument does exist because the person I initially replied to made it. I wasn't really arguing with you lol. You engaged me. I merely replied. So like you said, I'm not sure why we're arguing.

Invalice wrote:
Perhaps you didn't read my previous posts in the thread before the one you quoted and replied to?

^ This. :P
#99 Jan 06 2011 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
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*snickers*
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#100 Jan 07 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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At this point, I'm not even sure if some of the people arguing are even sure what they're arguing about anymore, except to argue.

Smiley: laugh

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 1:19pm by Mikhalia
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