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Should stat points be done away with entirely?Follow

#1 Jan 07 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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It feels like the armory system and stat point distribution systems run directly counter to each other. The armory system aims to allow you the ease of changing your class with a mere weapon swap while the stat point system does the exact opposite by locking you into a particular build and only allowing you to change very slowly over time. Considering that you might need to swap classes at any time, it's extremely counter intuitive to give us a stat point system that prevents us from doing so effectively.

For example, the stat points for pugilist and conjurer couldn't possibly be any more different, yet I might want to use one or the other at any given time. Basically, my only real option is to evenly distribute my stat points, but that leaves me as both a gimped pugilist AND conjurer.

What do folks think? Have you grappled with this issue as well? Would you be upset to see the stat point system removed entirely in favor of a different system or a system that automatically chooses points when you switch classes?

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 1:32pm by TheRealDestian
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#2 Jan 07 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh, you mean Stat point allotment?

My only wish is that they'd let me Reassign all, or a huge chunk of my points all at once, with a longer cooldown.
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#3 Jan 07 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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Kirby, Star Breaker wrote:
Oh, you mean Stat point allotment?

My only wish is that they'd let me Reassign all, or a huge chunk of my points all at once, with a longer cooldown.


Yes, and I fixed it.

I honestly don't know if being able to reassign all at once would solve it, since I frequently need to move between melee and magic classes.

Not to mention the fact that it's a huge PITA to keep reassigning points. :\
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#4 Jan 07 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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I am a fan of changing jobs, but this system is too complicated. It doesn't encourage changing jobs at all. Yes, it *sounds* nice that you have complete control over how points are allocated, but without an easy way to not only have the game *remember* your last build, but also quickly apply your new one, the novelty wears off really fast. Besides that, it opens up too much room for error and some of it flat out doesn't make sense. Why am I allocating thunder points? I happen to like lightning - that's really the only reason. It probably does nothing whatsoever to enhance my warrior marauder, but it was there so I picked it. The game sure as **** didn't give me any clues as to what element I should be interested in as a warrior marauder.

Besides that, I don't agree with the weapon swap tying to the job change either. One of the best things about FFXI was the ability to use multiple types of weapons for different effects - I just feel like we lost more than we gained with this system overall. They could have just as easily given us a list in the field of jobs we have available to select from and give the weapons more flexibility.
#5 Jan 07 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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You can re-assign your attribute points. Granted not all at once, but it's enough that you can instantly go from "decent" pugalist to "decent" conjurer, and over time can almost completely re-assign your attributes. I'm ok with the current system as it gives an advantage to people who specialize in one class or one type of class rather than someone who wants to be the jack of all classes (and master of none). Being able to instantly swap from ideal pugilist to ideal conjurer is a bit too lax in my opinion. Bedsides, nothing besides the new rank 50 NMs really require ideal stats anyhow. And if you're in a LS capable of taking down the big NMs, you probably won't need to change classes on the spot.
#6 Jan 07 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Decent
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I like it because it makes you actually plan out what you want to do with your character, since with full reallocation there's no purpose of having classes, just a "freelancer" that learns every ability. Since the stats don't have a huge impact like they did in XI for example so I think it's more for the gathering (elemental stats) and crafting/hp/mp boosting.

I tend to keep all of my stats even with more emphasis on what affects my goldsmithing and hp/mp, since realistically jumping between two wildly different classes knowing the stat limitations is just imposing a handicap on yourself, which is why I wished they just brought the XI/TT job system back.

The only time I struggled with stat allocation is if I jumped between Gladiator to Conjurer to Archer and back on a character.
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#7 Jan 07 2011 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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Combine the ability of stat reallocation with the purchased skills that adjust stat points (dex 5 into mnd 5 for example) and you have some very good flexibility when you decide to level another class.

Problem is, because people are "maxing" for their main job, they need to swing their stat points even further to level something else.

Your character should NOT look like this:

STR 110
DEX 40
VIT 90
INT 15
MND 20
PIE 14

Spread your points out a bit more, reallocate when you switch jobs, and use a few of the stat reallocation abilitys to put yourself where you want to be.

Yet again, people are not using the system as intended. Nobody was supposed to put 175 points into STR and 40 into VIT.

Your balanced character should look like this:

STR 50
DEX 50
VIT 50
INT 50
MND 50
PIE 50

And when you go out to level PUG it should be swung away from "balanced" toward the mele set of points.

STR 80
DEX 80
VIT 80
INT 25
MND 25
PIE 25

Then with the stat reallocation skills, move 15 more from MND to VIT, 15 from PIE to DEX and 15 from INT to STR.
The outcome looks like this:

95 STR
95 DEX
95 VIT
5 INT
5 MND
5 PIE

When you are done leveling Pug, reallocate back to your "balanced" set of skills, remove all your stat reallocation skills, and you are ready to swing back into another direction at any point.

Notice how from your "balanced" point allocation, you can quickly move to any setup with 1 reallocation and some skills, and then back to balanced with 1 more reallocation.

Start picking up your reallocation skills everyone ^.^

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:00pm by DoctorMog
#8 Jan 07 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

You can re-assign your attribute points. Granted not all at once, but it's enough that you can instantly go from "decent" pugalist to "decent" conjurer, and over time can almost completely re-assign your attributes. I'm ok with the current system as it gives an advantage to people who specialize in one class or one type of class rather than someone who wants to be the jack of all classes (and master of none).


That's the point though - have I not earned the right to play the job by grinding the levels, learning the class and gearing appropriately? What is this extra "wait" in there for before I can get my character to where it should be for the level? The end result is that folks who do want to play all classes are in and out of submenus for their entire gaming session, and how is that immersive and *fun*?

This is kind of SE talking about both sides of their faces - tease us with this illusion that you can do all things on one character, but the reality is that there are roadblocks against doing that even when you have earned the right to play the job.

The *advantage* or *edge* that you speak of is largely imaginary. When we are looking at end game situations or NM hunting, I for one am not going to be thrilled with the only online LS mate who has Gladiator leveled high enough to tank for us when Joe Blow spots SuperAwesomeNMThatDropsEpicLoot running around unclaimed, being sub-par because he was leveling Conjurer and can't allocate all his stats back right away.

We don't see it now because it's not affecting group play (there isn't much), but once the content starts rolling out and people need to swap jobs around for events, it will really cause an undue burden on the players.
#9 Jan 07 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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The roadblock you speak of is to prevent abusive situations down the road when going INTO a fight as a pre determined set of players, you can not all at once switch classes and become something different mid fight.

Imagine a FFXI fight, lets say Suzaku.

Balanced group of players begins the fight.

Tank dies.

With your proposed situation of letting players reallocate completely all at once, ANY player with a tank at 50 could then just reallocate immediately, toss on gear and tank MID fight.

Situation 2:

All players enter a fight as Conjurer.

All players nuke said boss at beginning of fight.

All players then change to main classes and fight as normal, however boss begins at 80% health due to abusing mechanics.


By not allowing players to move ALL their stats, THIS can happen:

Tank dies. Marauder vokes, enters passive mode, puts on sword and shield, vokes again, reallocates SOME points from DEX into VIT. This MRD can not change gear without the "uncomfortable" debuff, so is stuck tanking in DD gear.

Less effective as allowing a full reallocation, but feasible enough to work.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:15pm by DoctorMog
#10 Jan 07 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Yet again, people are not using the system as intended. Nobody was supposed to put 175 points into STR and 40 into VIT.


While I agree, one of the issues I have with this is that the game is completely silent on what these stat points do for you and which points you're going to want as which class.

And that begs the question: if each class has a "best" set of points anyway, why have points at all? Do points give us players a true choice of playstyle or is it just rope to hang ourselves with?

Quote:
When you are done leveling Pug, reallocate back to your "balanced" set of skills, remove all your stat reallocation skills, and you are ready to swing back into another direction at any point.

Notice how from your "balanced" point allocation, you can quickly move to any setup with 1 reallocation and some skills, and then back to balanced with 1 more reallocation.

Start picking up your reallocation skills everyone ^.^


I don't have any stat reallocation skills because the game insists upon offering me conjurer's marks even though con is half of my pug ranks right now, but even if I did, this seems like too many hoops to jump through with the same non-existent benefit to players.

Again, if the game allows us to quickly swap classes and each class has its own ideal set of stat points, then why have stat point allocation done by the player at all? Why put a great system that allows easy class changes in the game if we're only going to be punished for changing classes?
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#11 Jan 07 2011 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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The reason is because as an individual, if I want to play a DD gladiator, I can.

If I want to play a MP heavy healer with no nuking capabilities, I can.

I want to play a heavy Hitting DD with low Crit rate, but high survivability, I can.

It allows players to do what they want with their character.

No 2 characters will be alike, and is exactly the reason why my linkshell runs NM's with 4 gladiators sometimes.

2 are Tanking, 2 are DD. And if they really wanted to, they could throw a bunch of points into MND and offheal. (they dont, but they COULD!) lol

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:20pm by DoctorMog
#12 Jan 07 2011 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
The roadblock you speak of is to prevent abusive situations down the road when going INTO a fight as a pre determined set of players, you can not all at once switch classes and become something different mid fight.


They could either A) ensure that players cannot change classes so long as a mob has any aggro on them or B) give us fights that encourage us to change classes mid-fight to succeed.

I mean, that'd be some CRAZY mid-fight strategy right there. Think of the possibilities...
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#13 Jan 07 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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People already can't grasp most of the systems in this game and you think they can handle changing classes with stat reallocation mid fight?

Half of the people can't even allocate correctly in the first place.
#14 Jan 07 2011 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
The reason is because as an individual, if I want to play a DD gladiator, I can.

If I want to play a MP heavy healer with no nuking capabilities, I can.

I want to play a heavy Hitting DD with low Crit rate, but high survivability, I can.

It allows players to do what they want with their character.

No 2 characters will be alike, and is exactly the reason why my linkshell runs NM's with 4 gladiators sometimes.

2 are Tanking, 2 are DD. And if they really wanted to, they could throw a bunch of points into MND and offheal. (they dont, but they COULD!) lol

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:20pm by DoctorMog


I'm torn on this subject because, on one hand, I agree that it'd be nice if players truly could choose a build they want to go with and use it.

On the other hand, I suspect that SE is going to make endgame content in such a way that players are "funneled" into only playing as classes that are truly optimized. The difficulty that arises from encompassing this many playstyles is going to be plainly obvious in no time, I'd think.


DoctorMog wrote:
People already can't grasp most of the systems in this game and you think they can handle changing classes with stat reallocation mid fight?

Half of the people can't even allocate correctly in the first place.


I'm thinking they will in the endgame.

And I hardly blame people for not allocating "properly" when the game does nothing to suggest what they should allocate into in the first place, let alone for what they should allocate into when playing different classes.

I might also add that reallocating points is a tedious PITA. Clicking on an bunch of arrows 50 times each sure ain't my idea of a good time. :\

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:31pm by TheRealDestian
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#15 Jan 07 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Agree with the OP -- this system didn't make sense to me from the start. There are two conflicting design philosophies happening at the same time.

The really weird part is that they aren't fully committed to locking in the stat builds. You can change them, it's just a pain in the ***.

This comes up all the time in games. They put in a restriction that they realize is too harsh, but they aren't willing to abandon the idea. So they compromise with a workaround. They think, "As long as it's really annoying to do, people will still feel restricted!"

It never works. Either restrict it fully or leave it open.
#16 Jan 07 2011 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
With your proposed situation of letting players reallocate completely all at once, ANY player with a tank at 50 could then just reallocate immediately, toss on gear and tank MID fight.


My argument for that is that they should have left job-switching to be only in towns. By allowing switching in the field, it almost seems they were trying to encourage this exact behavior.

Now, I would agree that when your party or alliance has engaged a monster you are set in those jobs for the duration of that specific fight - but suppose it doesn't go too well and as you rethink strategy you find that another player who has Gladiator leveled happens to have a better set of equipment? Shouldn't you be able to switch people around for the next attempt at the fight? You'd be able to in XI by going back to town - but that was considered a time sink that SE wanted to remove - no?

This is what I mean - the whole system is mixed signals. If that's really everyone's fear and the reason stats should be slow in reallocation, take it out of the equation and lock it back to a fixed location in a town (aka, Mog House).

Personally I think it was meant to just add another level of complication to an already complicated system, masquerading as "choice and freedom".
#17 Jan 07 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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So you want to let players completely reallocate, but only in town?

Reminds me of another FF game. Odd.
#18 Jan 07 2011 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
Personally I think it was meant to just add another level of complication to an already complicated system, masquerading as "choice and freedom".


I think that, no matter what they intended, this is the end result: confusion and complication with unclear results.

The stats already do different things for different classes. For example, when I switch from PUG to CON, my HP and MP change drastically, indicating that different classes get different mileage out of different stats.

If that's the case, why have them if switching from one class to another is only going to guarantee a suboptimal build? If they want to punish players for diversifying, there are far easier and less-convoluted means of doing so.
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#19 Jan 07 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

So you want to let players completely reallocate, but only in town?

Reminds me of another FF game. Odd.


Is that what I said? No, I said that if the fear is that people might have an edge by *exploiting* the in-game mechanic of swapping jobs in the field, just go back to the old system. I mean - do you not see how silly it sounds?

SE clearly wanted us to be able to swap in the field to make it fast and easy to experience all the jobs. Why add this arbitrary limitation of slow stat reallocation, and why defend such a tedious and unnecessary process?
#20 Jan 07 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
So you want to let players completely reallocate, but only in town?


I personally think it should be ripped out and replaced with something else.

I strongly suspect that, come REAL endgame content, players are going to get funneled anyway. We'll hear complaints of "Why can marauders heal in endgame encounters?" and SE will only be able to reply with "Because marauders weren't meant to heal..."

I know for a FACT that using abilities of some classes as other classes nerfs them horribly, despite no stat point changes.

For example, using Radiance as a pugilist only returns 2-3 mana and does less damage. Players WILL be forced to optimize at some point, otherwise endgame content would be ridiculously easy for groups with optimized points in order for it to be a real battle for players with sub-optimal builds.

And when that argument crops up, toss out "builds" and give us some other means of customization.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:43pm by TheRealDestian
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#21 Jan 07 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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How the **** is this so hard to grasp?

If you guys were allocating your stats correctly in the first place, when you switch jobs you wouldn't have the issues you are all complaining of.

I'm calling this thread out.
The idea of removing the FLEXIBILITY of the system is a stupid, and very ill informed idea.

So, lets expand on this a bit instead of me just calling you all morons.

Imagine the game with no stat reallocation.

You now have FFXI.

Congrats.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:42pm by DoctorMog
#22 Jan 07 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you guys were allocating your stats correctly in the first place, when you switch jobs you wouldn't have the issues you are all complaining of.


Correctly? I thought the point of allocating ourselves was to make our own optimal build, according to our tastes, i.e. DD Gladiator.

So now unless we use a specific sort of build, it's incorrect? I disagree. My Marauder build is perfect - it's a mix of strength and accuracy and I would be very effective in a battle, as a marauder.

I also have Conjurer leveled, which I may need to use. Now why is it that I cannot have a separate build for it? Why can't the game remember my choices for Marauder, and then when I am playing a different class lock my choices for Marauder away so that I can make different choices for a new class?

THAT, would be true freedom. This is a masquerade.
#23 Jan 07 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
How the **** is this so hard to grasp?

If you guys were allocating your stats correctly in the first place, when you switch jobs you wouldn't have the issues you are all complaining of.

I'm calling this thread out.
The idea of removing the FLEXIBILITY of the system is a stupid, and very ill informed idea.

So, lets expand on this a bit instead of me just calling you all morons.

Imagine the game with no stat reallocation.

You now have FFXI.

Congrats.


If a convoluted, poorly-designed mess of a stat allocation system is all that truly separates this game from FFXI, then FFXIV is in more trouble than we ever thought possible (unless you loved XI, I mean).


Torrence wrote:
Correctly? I thought the point of allocating ourselves was to make our own optimal build, according to our tastes, i.e. DD Gladiator.

So now unless we use a specific sort of build, it's incorrect? I disagree. My Marauder build is perfect - it's a mix of strength and accuracy and I would be very effective in a battle, as a marauder.

I also have Conjurer leveled, which I may need to use. Now why is it that I cannot have a separate build for it? Why can't the game remember my choices for Marauder, and then when I am playing a different class lock my choices for Marauder away so that I can make different choices for a new class?

THAT, would be true freedom. This is a masquerade.


Well-said.

What happened to "freedom" if we're apparently doing it wrong?

And I could see leaving the system in if it allowed us to choose our stat build for EACH class, as well as offering some better in-game explanation for what stats actually do and which classes get the most benefit out of them.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:49pm by TheRealDestian
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#24 Jan 07 2011 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
How the **** is this so hard to grasp?

If you guys were allocating your stats correctly in the first place, when you switch jobs you wouldn't have the issues you are all complaining of.

I'm calling this thread out.
The idea of removing the FLEXIBILITY of the system is a stupid, and very ill informed idea.

So, lets expand on this a bit instead of me just calling you all morons.

Imagine the game with no stat reallocation.

You now have FFXI.

Congrats.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:42pm by DoctorMog


There's a phrase for people that pick middle of the road stats across the board, and it's applied to all MMOs. It's called "I have no idea how to optimize my character, so I'll just put some points into everything and that should work right?"

Stop trying to defend a terrible system. Find me one RPG where every character had a balanced set of stats and your stance will hold water. However, since you can NOT (even within the FF series) stop trying to be a White Knight. "Balanced" characters are boring, weak, and never get the lime-light.

And no, before you mention *Red Mage* I explicitly stated stats, not "gathering all pieces of gear and a soloing subjob so I can micro-manage every single ability".
#25 Jan 07 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Wrong.


There are 2 roads you can take in this system (actually 3)

#1. Prime allocation.

Allocate your stat points perfectly for the class you play the most. Forget the others, thats the only class you play. Any other class you play you will play with the pre determined best stats for that 1 class you enjoy.

#2. General allocation

You allocate your stats as an average. You allocate your points to best encompass all the classes you plan on playing. You use the stat point allocation skills to aid in swinging your stats toward the class you are currently playing and you minimize the number of reallocations to get yourself back to "baseline"

#3. You have no idea what you plan on doing. You have maxed stats you think are good for a class you are on, but you go too far (or too little) with those stats, and subsequently reallocating to another class takes more reallocations and wasted time.
#26 Jan 07 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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How can u be in favor of a system that reduces the diversity of the "types" of each different discipline?

First of all, being able to alocate stats where you want is great. You can choose to be a pugilist with more HP and less damage (more VIT less STR) is just one example. I won't list all the possibilities because they are endless.

The stat point reallocation system is fine. It allows you to switch a decent amount of stats every 30 minutes (not sure on cooldown) so you can switch discipline to better fit the people you are playing with. (i.e.: you're soloing leves as pugilist and another pugilist friend logs on and party with you, so you switch to something else, let's say conjurer, reallocate some stats and do a decent job without losing any time beside clicking the arrows to reallocate stats).

Diversity ftw.

If I wanted to play a "set type" of class/job/discipline, I'd go back to WoW or FFXI and play the exact same pve build everyone is playing with the exact same skills everyone use in the same rotation and in the exact same gear. I'd be like: look i'm doing more damage than this other rogue, i'm so leet!

Sure in FFXIV endgame content, some builds will be optimal. But this system allows us to lvl and play different styles of each discipline and I think that's great. Oh and not knowing everything about a game is so much better than knowing everything and having everything planned out from A to Z.
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#27 Jan 07 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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Two parts:

1) The system for stat point re-allocation is there to allow you to customize what particular stats you want for a particular job.

Could it benefit from you saving a template or desired set of stats for each class you have leveled? Absolutely

Could it automatically allocate the stat points into your predetermined optimum set for that particular job? Yeah, I'd be fine with that

Is requiring us to click on a button over and over to allocate stat points one at a time not allowing us to fix a mistake without scrapping the whole process absurd? Definitely



2) The time delay in the system is there for no other reason than to put an artificial delay in being able to switch your base stats drastically quickly. You can have this stat system without the time delay and you can have a time delay in another class switching system, if we keep that in mind for the discussions this whole thing might make more sense imo...

Its a simple preference, should there be an artificial penalty placed on those that want to frequently alternate their character between greatly different physical builds?

If you're switching to a crafter just to repair something for you main you don't need to be reallocating stat points, but if you want to do some serious heavy lifting on a craft job (expensive mats, going for HQ or cranking through levels) it would be worth it...


My personal opinion, they need to streamline part one drastically (even to the point of having your stat points automatically switch over the time delay if they still wanna keep that)

EDIT: I'm all for them keeping the concept of you allocating your own stats for whatever role you want to take, conceptually I think its far better than a class having one set of stats you cant manipulate, especially in a game where they allow players to mix and match aspects of each class together.


But I believe I have the unpopular idea of being alright with a transition time period being required to switch from an optimal tank hybrid type to an optimal ranger caster type to do some hardcore DD or an optimal smith to go for high level HQs...

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 3:22pm by phoenixcws
#28 Jan 07 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think they should be done away with. Instead, I think they should mean more in terms of character development.

This would somewhat deal with the problem of a lack of character distinction, since you can basically do any class you want with any stats you want (I'm currently lvling CON with no points in INT or MND and still hitting almost as hard as a CON with capped INT). Add class-specific end-game armors (like AF) and maybe classes wouldn't feel so empty while playing them.
#29 Jan 07 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Diversity ftw.
If I wanted to play a "set type" of class/job/discipline, I'd go back to WoW or FFXI and play the exact same pve build everyone is playing with the exact same skills everyone use in the same rotation and in the exact same gear. I'd be like: look i'm doing more damage than this other rogue, i'm so leet!


I don't understand how this system encourages the diversity you speak of any more than the system I described where I build my Marauder the way I want it, and then my Conjurer the way I want it. I'm not talking about less choice, I'm talking about a more intelligent implementation of choice as opposed to this system that forces your stats to periodically undergo a period of *limbo* with no real explanation as to *why*.

Interesting how my one comment arguing against the "swapping jobs in the field can be an exploit so we can't let people immediately reallocate their stats" just got blown all out of proportion.

#30 Jan 07 2011 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Doesn't it seems logic to you that someone who changes discipline from a DoW to a DoM shouldn't be able to be optimal right away? To me, it totally makes sense. It means people will have to prepare adequatly for end game content.

With 1 reallocation of stats, you can perform well enough to have an "easy leveling" of any discipline.

I like this system. I also like the repair system. They both make things more realistic and logic. I understand people who don't like them. But I'd like to add, if you don't like anything about the game, why not stop playing it?
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#31 Jan 07 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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I think each time you switch classes your allocations should change
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#32 Jan 07 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Wrong.


There are 2 roads you can take in this system (actually 3)

#1. Prime allocation.

Allocate your stat points perfectly for the class you play the most. Forget the others, thats the only class you play. Any other class you play you will play with the pre determined best stats for that 1 class you enjoy.

#2. General allocation

You allocate your stats as an average. You allocate your points to best encompass all the classes you plan on playing. You use the stat point allocation skills to aid in swinging your stats toward the class you are currently playing and you minimize the number of reallocations to get yourself back to "baseline"

#3. You have no idea what you plan on doing. You have maxed stats you think are good for a class you are on, but you go too far (or too little) with those stats, and subsequently reallocating to another class takes more reallocations and wasted time.


Where is the benefit of giving players the ability to switch classes on the fly, then hampering them by saying "But you can't do it effectively because your stats aren't built for it!".

Like Torrence said, didn't you earn those conjurer levels as well? What logic is there in having a system for point reallocation in a game where you're encouraged to play as multiple classes that each handle stat points differently?

Now, if EACH job had its OWN set of stat points, I'd be fine with that. Then, you COULD choose to be a DD Gladiator, a healing Maurader or a nuking Archer, but those stats would be confined to that specific class, not hampering you on a global scale when you tried to play as any other class or do some crafting.

And no, reallocating to "swing" a particular stat back the other way temporarily is a terrible game mechanic. Who's the ********* who enjoys sitting there and clicking arrows up and down for 5 minutes while they "reoptimize" their build EVERY time they change classes?
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#33 Jan 07 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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This topic encouraged me to make another video explaining myself, and my "general allocation" method.
My video is an example of how to "generalize" your stats and "swing" them with minimal reallocations and traits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGNlv1cO8m4


This is a good baseline for most players until they know what class they plan on taking to 50. In which case they can move to a "prime allocation" setup for the 1 class they want to play. I will make a video explaining that in the future.



#34 Jan 07 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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I really like that you can allocate your stat points. This provides higher customization and flexibilty on building your character. If you ask me it goes hand in hand with the armory system.

I do however feel there should be an automatic mode for them to be allocated for casual players who aren't sure whats best for them.

And yeah, I think that reallocating the points only by bits its a bit dumb. Its like I can't play my melee at its max potential if I want to level my mage for a while. Its less noticeable now, but once we reach rank 50+ it'll start being a huge pain.
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FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#35 Jan 07 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
This topic encouraged me to make another video explaining myself, and my "general allocation" method.
My video is an example of how to "generalize" your stats and "swing" them with minimal reallocations and traits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGNlv1cO8m4


This is a good baseline for most players until they know what class they plan on taking to 50. In which case they can move to a "prime allocation" setup for the 1 class they want to play. I will make a video explaining that in the future.

That's the problem with this system. The stats are TOO general, in that they barely do ANYTHING.

Honestly, a stat system like Ragnarok Online's would've been perfectly fine while keeping the 1 hour partial resets. Stats in that game were practically perfect. It was strict enough where your class NEEDED certain stats to actually be viable, yet flexible enough where there were several different possible builds per class. Putting points into DEX actually noticeably improved my accuracy. Putting points into LUK actually noticeably improved my crit chance. Right now, it's TOO flexible and there really is no true distinction. It makes classes feel generic.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:02pm by SoumaKyou
#36 Jan 07 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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Can you back up your claim that they don't do anything? Because last time I checked they SIGNIFICANTLY change how much HP, MP an damage you do.
#37 Jan 07 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This is a good baseline for most players until they know what class they plan on taking to 50. In which case they can move to a "prime allocation" setup for the 1 class they want to play. I will make a video explaining that in the future.


But doesn't the system encourage us to play more than one class? I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't it been the biggest selling point on this game (and to some extent XI) - One Character - All Jobs?

What you are saying basically is that you should really only focus on one job regardless of the fact that there are numerous others, because it's an exploit to be versatile. I respectfully disagree, as someone who leveled and maintained numerous jobs in XI in order to be able to perform any job role at the drop of a hat.

This stats allocation seems to me like they took what was good about Merits and just applied it to EVERYTHING in the game. Similar to Market Wards with Rolanmart, the system is nice in theory but in practice it's just too tedious and it doesn't make sense.

Let me ask you this - was it overpowered in XI that we could switch jobs and stats swapped around appropriately? If it wasn't, then there is no reason that we shouldn't have some sort of job template system where if we MUST allocate everything ourselves, at least my choices on one are isolated from the others.

Otherwise, what's the point of One Character All Jobs? Might as well just give us ten slots like WoW and let us create a character to specialize in all the classes we want, because locking it like this essentially accomplishes the same thing.

You guys will see what I mean when big linkshells start forming for End Game and you are constantly asked to switch jobs around because you are the only Thaumaturge or whatever and they have 9999999 other Lancers.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:04pm by Torrence
#38 Jan 07 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:

Where is the benefit of giving players the ability to switch classes on the fly, then hampering them by saying "But you can't do it effectively because your stats aren't built for it!".


It allows me to be specialized in tanking with stats that are optimized for it, quickly switch to armorer to repair something, quickly switch to miner or fisher in my downtime and at the same time give me a benefit in my chosen specialty of the week that someone specced to be an endgame caster or a master smith wont have.

The concept is a solid one, not everyone might agree with it, but if you're looking for a reason, thats it.


(not to say the current implementation isnt cludgy beyond belief, like most of the unpolished aspects)
#39 Jan 07 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Imagine the game with no stat reallocation.

You now have FFXI.

Congrats.


Quote:
And when you go out to level PUG it should be swung away from "balanced" toward the mele set of points.

STR 80
DEX 80
VIT 80
INT 25
MND 25
PIE 25


More or less the same thing.

What is the point if you know what your job is going to build like anyways? You could just drop the system entirely let them auto disperse based off the job, clean up the menu by dropping the option, and just move along to more important issues.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:03pm by MippsCat
#40 Jan 07 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Can you back up your claim that they don't do anything? Because last time I checked they SIGNIFICANTLY change how much HP, MP an damage you do.

Signicantly? HP and MP, sure. But when dropping 30 points into STR barely increases your max damage 5-10 points above the previous, it's not significant at all.

Tell me, what does DEX do? What does PIE do? Is it noticeable? Prove it.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:05pm by SoumaKyou
#41 Jan 07 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
This topic encouraged me to make another video explaining myself, and my "general allocation" method.
My video is an example of how to "generalize" your stats and "swing" them with minimal reallocations and traits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGNlv1cO8m4


This is a good baseline for most players until they know what class they plan on taking to 50. In which case they can move to a "prime allocation" setup for the 1 class they want to play. I will make a video explaining that in the future.


First, is it possible for you to make a video in which you DONT condescend all those "ignorant" players who don't have your "vast" knowledge of FFXIV (and also thankfully don't have your uncanny desire to defend suboptimal game mechanics)?

Second, this video is a perfect example of what's wrong with the system: too much complexity with zero reward for usability for the player. Protip: if the system is so convoluted that powergamer needs to explain it in a video after reaching 50, IT'S A TERRIBLE SYSTEM!

Here's an idea: if a stat is going to increase my magical damage, why not simply let me put points into MAGICAL DAMAGE? Or HP? Or MP? Or critical chance? Why obfuscate it behind 6 dated stat point types when we could instead give players twice the number of stat points, 12 different stat types and then players could REALLY choose what kind of class they want to build WITHOUT having to guess what each stat means?

With the reallocation cooldown, the system is basically asking players to make the choice between spending a period of time as an inferior version of a class or not playing that class. If I want to switch my stats to CON, I better not then have a LS mate ask me to build something for them as an armorer because I'll be stuck with inferior stat points while I do so or I log in later and change my stats.

This isn't giving players more choices: this is DENYING players more choices. This is touting the armory system as a new, wonderful concept, then taking all of the wind out of it in practice because, if you need to reallocate stats if you want to be as effective as possible, then you actually DON'T have the freedom to change classes on a whim.

This could be easily fixed if each class simply had its own stat allocations. We'd get the best of ALL worlds then: build your Marauder however you want without ******** up your Gladiator, AND you don't have to sit there and click on buttons for 5 minutes every time you change classes and want to not be gimped.

And might I add something else? We already have GEAR to be an issue for deciding what to choose to level. Why do we need stat points on top of that?
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#42 Jan 07 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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You don't think 5-10 points PER hit is good?

Seems like 10 points on hits that do 100 lets say is a 10% increase in damage.

Seems important to me.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:07pm by DoctorMog
#43 Jan 07 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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MippsCat wrote:
Quote:
Imagine the game with no stat reallocation.

You now have FFXI.

Congrats.


Quote:
And when you go out to level PUG it should be swung away from "balanced" toward the mele set of points.

STR 80
DEX 80
VIT 80
INT 25
MND 25
PIE 25


More or less the same thing.

What is the point if you know what your job is going to build like anyways? You could just drop the system entirely let them auto disperse based off the job, clean up the menu by dropping the option, and just move along to more important issues.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:03pm by MippsCat


Difference is, I COULD do this:

STR 90
DEX 60
VIT 80
INT 15
MND 45
PIE 25

and actually have Mp to backup heal.

You guys are so dense...


Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:11pm by DoctorMog
#44 Jan 07 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
You don't think 5-10 points PER hit is good?

Seems like 10 points on hits that do 100 lets say is a 10% increase in damage.

Seems important to me.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:07pm by DoctorMog

Except it takes 30+ stat points, and the difference is so small that one would need to make logs of the min/max damage per hit over a period of, say, 1000 hits before and after stat allocation, to even be able to determine that increase.

DEX doesn't noticeably increase accuracy. You mean to tell me the 70 points I have in it isn't supposed to be noticeable against having the base 17 points? That's working as intended? FFXI's accuracy stat at least had noticeable results. WoW has a noticeable hit rating that caps at 8%. RO's was very noticeable as well against high flee targets.

How is XIV's stat system better? The only noticeable gain when it comes to stats in this game are with VIT and MND increasing HP and MP. Hurrah?

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:15pm by SoumaKyou
#45 Jan 07 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Reading this thread really make me think:

Oh boy I hope SE doesn't listen too much to the players, because some of them are f.. dumb.

This game is designed so you have to test stuff by yourself before knowing everything about it (until guides are written about every little thing in the game).

Knowing EXACLTY what stats give? Read what they do on the web and test it out to see how much 1 str gives dmg, 1 vit gives hp, etc.

But to do this I have to put some effort in!!!!

Wait this isn't easy mode WoW?

I want a copy of WoW!
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#46 Jan 07 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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And yes, that video comment was a shot directly at the people who are too stupid to take 5 seconds and figure something out on their own instead of having to be told what to do.

Think for yourselves people.
#47 Jan 07 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
You don't think 5-10 points PER hit is good?

Seems like 10 points on hits that do 100 lets say is a 10% increase in damage.

Seems important to me.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:07pm by DoctorMog

Except it takes 30+ stat points, and the difference is so small that one would need to make logs of the min/max damage per hit over a period of, say, 1000 hits before and after stat allocation, to even be able to determine that increase.

DEX doesn't noticeably increase accuracy. You mean to tell me the 70 points I have in it isn't supposed to be noticeable against having the base 17 points? That's working as intended? FFXI's accuracy stat at least had noticeable results. WoW has a noticeable hit rating that caps at 8%. RO's was very noticeable as well against high flee targets.

So, how is XIV's stat system better?


At rank 40 you get almost 30 points when you level. So why again is 30 points alot? I get over 140 points when I reallocate at 50.

30 isn't squat.
#48 Jan 07 2011 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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415 posts
QuickShadoww wrote:
Reading this thread really make me think:

Oh boy I hope SE doesn't listen too much to the players, because some of them are f.. dumb.

This game is designed so you have to test stuff by yourself before knowing everything about it (until guides are written about every little thing in the game).

Thanks for stating the obvious.

The problem isn't that we don't know what stats do. It's that they seem no to do anything at all. Stop being dumb.
#49 Jan 07 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
At rank 40 you get almost 30 points when you level. So why again is 30 points alot? I get over 140 points when I reallocate at 50.

30 isn't squat.

So that's your excuse for the poor stat system? Because we get more points at higher levels?

Way to cop out.
#50 Jan 07 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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@Doctor Mog

Don't try to make them change their mind. It's useless. They are part of the "i'm never happy category" because they thought FFXIV would be their "ideal personnal view of a MMO".

BTW, great videos and posts about the NMs, crafting gear and all. People may call you a white knight but I think you are just enjoying the game and sharing your knowledge and enjoyment with others. Keep going. I enjoy the game and like your work.
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#51 Jan 07 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
QuickShadoww wrote:
Reading this thread really make me think:

Oh boy I hope SE doesn't listen too much to the players, because some of them are f.. dumb.

This game is designed so you have to test stuff by yourself before knowing everything about it (until guides are written about every little thing in the game).

Thanks for stating the obvious.

The problem isn't that we don't know what stats do. It's that they seem no to do anything at all. Stop being dumb.



Really? Go to an aetheryte and READ what it says sometime.

STR = physical attack
VIT = physical defense
DEX = physical accuracy
INT = magical attack
MND = magical defense
PIE = magical accuracy

The GAME ITSELF tells you what the stats do.


"Stop being Dumb" Thanks

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:20pm by DoctorMog
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