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Should stat points be done away with entirely?Follow

#102 Jan 07 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Yes, I post videos and comments refuting peoples claims at "broken" and "this should be this way" and I post WHY. So yes, I post evidence of WHY things are the way they are. I also post how to work around it and use it as effective as possible.

People DO like this game. Stop pulling random opinions into posts as if they were fact.

Your "evidence" and "proof" is nothing but your opinions, with no spreadsheets or actual data to back it up. You know... because without mathematical evidence of your claims, your "proof" is as good as ours.
#103 Jan 07 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
If anyone wants to come to a forum where people are enjoying this game, and are working to improve the knowledge of the game and community;

you are welcome to come to my LS site:

daevaofwar.com

People who think they know how to make the game better can just sit out. Otherwise you would be working for a game company already, wouldn't you?


Uh, you do realize SQUARE is asking people who DON'T work for game companies for advice on how to make the game better, right?

https://secure.square-enix.com/enqt/e/FF14NPLAYERENQ01/html
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#104 Jan 07 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah, and feedback goes here:
http://support.na.square-enix.com/about.php?la=1&id=902
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#105 Jan 07 2011 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
You don't think 5-10 points PER hit is good?

Seems like 10 points on hits that do 100 lets say is a 10% increase in damage.

Seems important to me.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:07pm by DoctorMog

Except it takes 30+ stat points, and the difference is so small that one would need to make logs of the min/max damage per hit over a period of, say, 1000 hits before and after stat allocation, to even be able to determine that increase.

DEX doesn't noticeably increase accuracy. You mean to tell me the 70 points I have in it isn't supposed to be noticeable against having the base 17 points? That's working as intended? FFXI's accuracy stat at least had noticeable results. WoW has a noticeable hit rating that caps at 8%. RO's was very noticeable as well against high flee targets.

How is XIV's stat system better? The only noticeable gain when it comes to stats in this game are with VIT and MND increasing HP and MP. Hurrah?

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:15pm by SoumaKyou



I hate to break this to you, but that's how stats work in MMOs. They aren't supposed to be that noticeable to the naked eye. In FFXI, it took roughly 20 points of STR to raise your base damage by 5.

Think about that in relation to your past couple of posts.
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#106 Jan 07 2011 at 4:27 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
The armory system aims to allow you the ease of changing your class with a mere weapon swap while the stat point system does the exact opposite by locking you into a particular build and only allowing you to change very slowly over time. Considering that you might need to swap classes at any time, it's extremely counter intuitive to give us a stat point system that prevents us from doing so effectively.


That is completely correct, and I have often (far too often, given that I have stopped playing until things are updated) lamented the fact that I am stuck playing either 2 mages or 5 melees, and never both. As I have said to my wife (who is also taken a break until updates), I enjoy Thaumaturge and I enjoy Pugulist, but I cannot play either effectively if I wish to be able to move from one to the other.

It is ironic that FFXIV's "complete control over character customization" grants far less freedom than FFXI's "job change" system, especially given that SE touted FFXIV's system as so open and comparatively desirable.

In short, I have in the past (in other threads weeks old), and still to this day, completely advocate the removal of Physical Level from the game. It serves no purpose other than to greatly hinder one's ability to change classes -- no purpose other than to restrict the very system FFXIV is supposedly built upon.
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#107 Jan 07 2011 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
If anyone wants to come to a forum where people are enjoying this game, and are working to improve the knowledge of the game and community;

you are welcome to come to my LS site:

daevaofwar.com

People who think they know how to make the game better can just sit out. Otherwise you would be working for a game company already, wouldn't you?


You can LIKE the game and still think of ways it can be made better. In fact, you're doing MUCH more to help SE by telling them what can be made better.

Seriously? This is how you're going to "bow out" of this thread? By storming off in a huff?

****, and I was looking forward to some good debates with you. Ah well... :(
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#108 Jan 07 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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SE: Try out the armory system! It lets you change classes at ANY time, any PLACE!...Except for the fact that the class you switch to will be gimped and poorly-built, but don't worry! You can change SOME of your stat points once every 30 minutes, so you'll be a slightly-less crap version of that class!


i quoted that because i really do hope SE sees it lol.
anyway, im currently trying to build a DRK style class combining R14 LNC and R28 THM (mostly) however, since i cant reallocate all my points i tried playing using my THM stats on my LNC and noticed all of my THM abilities were massively useless. sacrifice II heals for significantly less than Cure I and its regen only lasts i think for about 5 seconds, none of my absorb spells work almost ever, basicly i cant play as a DRK even though my stats in pie, mind, and int are all almost in their 50s.
i understand there is a rank stat cap, but it kinda goes with the "whats the point of the stats if..." argument.
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#109 Jan 07 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:


The FFXIV dev team have said that they also look at ZAM for feedback, and I intend to give it to them.

I have faith that this game can be better and I've stated how I feel that is. On this SAME forum, I suggested that people with repairs should display a special icon next to their name. Come next update, they did. I don't know for certain that it was my suggestion that prompted this, but I believe this was done due to SE listening to their playerbase, which is exactly what they're trying to do with the poll.
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#110 Jan 07 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:

It is ironic that FFXIV's "complete control over character customization" grants far less freedom than FFXI's "job change" system, especially given that SE touted FFXIV's system as so open and comparatively desirable.


I can totally see being against the large time delay, but what this system does grant that FFXI doesnt is the ability to have different base stats, customized by your own personal play for a job... any elvaan DD leveling through the 30s would have salivated at the prospect of tweaking their base dex up a bit at the expense of some of their mnd.

I dont think the system is great, and I think the implementation right now sucks, but its certainly not a case where theres just zero upside period.... I mean judging from most peoples comments simply eliminating any time delay on redistribution and saving the classes "last stat distribution" would change this from a system they seem to hate to one they'd be happy with, and that just one pretty small change requiring no real in depth thought on the matter... Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
#111 Jan 07 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
I hate to break this to you, but that's how stats work in MMOs. They aren't supposed to be that noticeable to the naked eye. In FFXI, it took roughly 20 points of STR to raise your base damage by 5.

Think about that in relation to your past couple of posts.

I hate to break it to you, but your idea of MMO's is all wrong.

There are two types of MMO's.

Class-based and Stat/Skill-based.

Class-based systems like WoW and FFXI give you stats automatically. They put more emphasis on your class and its specific abilities rather than individual stats and skills. Thus, character progression is highly affected by class-specific gear rather than individual character stats.

Stat/Skill-based systems like FFXIV, RO, GW, etc. let you add your stats/skills manually. The purpose here is to allow you to customize your role and specialize in something. Thus, character progression is highly affected by stat/skill allocation, and should be noticeable to give that sense of progression.

Think about that in relation to whatever the **** it is you think MMO's are.
#112 Jan 07 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I can totally see being against the large time delay, but what this system does grant that FFXI doesnt is the ability to have different base stats, customized by your own personal play for a job... any elvaan DD leveling through the 30s would have salivated at the prospect of tweaking their base dex up a bit at the expense of some of their mnd.


this is totally true, but i think alot of people wish the stats in FFXIV had a larger significance in effectiveness giving a better reason to effectively use the system. just my thoughts.
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#113 Jan 07 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Let's try to steer this thread back to the subject, and disband the little cliques that have formed that are arguing relentlessly with a blind eye to each other's remarks. I'll start...

First of all let's try to dispel some rumors. I've read at physical level 50 it takes 6 hours to fully reset your points, I cannot confirm this since I'm only level 42, and have not tested it. So let's get this idea of it taking DAYS to change from a mage to a melee out of our heads. Of course 6 hours is a long time, if you need to change spontaneously, etc etc. That being said, maybe I missed it, but no one has seemed to mention soft and hard caps. Of course as you gain a higher and higher physical rank you are awarded more points to allocate.

The cost increase for raising Attributes or Elemental Attributes is based on the current level of those attributes.

1 through 39 = 1 point per attribute increase.
40 through 80 = 2 points per attribute increase.
81 through 127 = 3 points per attribute increase.
128 and above = 4 points per attribute increase.

So let's say you're rank 50 Gladiator, and you reset one time you will receive 30 pts. Now you want to focus those points into Conjurer which is rank 15. 30 pts is going to go a long way at rank 15. So the system is not entirely burdensome until you get multiple HL jobs. Changing from 50 mage to 50 melee is going to be a PITA.

Now there are other options that have been mentioned already which are the traits that are earned by purchasing with guild marks.

Mage bought traits
Complete Control: Converts an attribute point allocation of Mind +5 into Dexterity +5.
Driven By Faith: Converts an attribute point allocation of Piety +5 into Vitality +5.
Will of Power: Converts an attribute point allocation of Intelligence +5 into Strength +5.

Melee bought traits
Mind over Matter: Converts an attribute point allocation of Dexterity +5 into Mind +5.
Asceticism: Converts an attribute point allocation of Vitality +5 into Piety +5.
Muscle Memory: Converts an attribute point allocation of Strength +5 into Intelligence +5.

Each of these also have a "II" which does the conversion of 10 points. When both traits applied giving a 15 point swap.

Guild marks come pretty easily, and by the time you get into middle ranks you'll be swimming in guild marks. The argument that you aren't getting enough marks to buy these traits is a moot point, because if you're worrying about getting an optimal set up out of a class then you better at least be talking rank 25+ since the soft caps of a lower rank class are not going to impede your ability to optimize said class. If you have multiple classes above 30 then you have had plenty of chances to get the marks you need to get these bonuses.

Lastly, gear will play an important role in all of this as well, obviously. Until more testing it done, and the soft and hard caps are better known, you may be able to use certain +attribute rings to cap out your attributes, thus giving you the ability to allocate points to more mage attributes on your melee build without losing complete optimization on a class.


My opinion that system works if you know how to manage it efficiently, sure it's somewhat bothersome, but I enjoy the option to specialize my class, and welcome the diversity it promotes in a class. It requires more thinking, planning, and tinkering which are things I enjoy doing.
#114 Jan 07 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
The roadblock you speak of is to prevent abusive situations down the road when going INTO a fight as a pre determined set of players, you can not all at once switch classes and become something different mid fight.

Imagine a FFXI fight, lets say Suzaku.

Balanced group of players begins the fight.

Tank dies.

With your proposed situation of letting players reallocate completely all at once, ANY player with a tank at 50 could then just reallocate immediately, toss on gear and tank MID fight.

Situation 2:

All players enter a fight as Conjurer.

All players nuke said boss at beginning of fight.

All players then change to main classes and fight as normal, however boss begins at 80% health due to abusing mechanics.


By not allowing players to move ALL their stats, THIS can happen:

Tank dies. Marauder vokes, enters passive mode, puts on sword and shield, vokes again, reallocates SOME points from DEX into VIT. This MRD can not change gear without the "uncomfortable" debuff, so is stuck tanking in DD gear.

Less effective as allowing a full reallocation, but feasible enough to work.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 2:15pm by DoctorMog


I don't think it lets you do that while your party is engaged with an enemy. If you're assuming people would just drop party to do that, I've done that once, and unless they changed it, the game still counted me as engaged with the enemy.
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#115 Jan 07 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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ExasperatedDenial wrote:
sure it's somewhat bothersome, but I enjoy the option to specialize my class, and welcome the diversity it promotes in a class. It requires more thinking, planning, and tinkering


I keep hearing this, but I don't ever see any of these idealized, hybridized classes that proponents of the system talk about.

Most of the time, the only cross-class abilities I see being used from classes of the opposing school are support or healing spells -- things that are just used for "back-up" or not significantly affected by stat distribution anyway, like Protect and Shell.

As it stands now, I certainly hear lots of talk about the "spell slinging tank" and what-have-you, but I have yet to actually see, say, a Pugulist effectively punch and nuke, or a Marauder stick a significant amount of enfeeblement upon a monster and brutally lunge in for the kill.

It always seems most effective just to stick with what your class is supposed to be good at, occasionally dipping into other classes' abilities (like Second Wind or Bloodbath) the same way one would use a subjob in FFXI, but never specializing an entire build around some sort of Conjuring-Lancer.

So, until someone can find an effective build in which a Diciple of War uses mostly Mind, Intelligence, and/or Piety, the stat-distribution system may as well not exist, because we're just putting points where they are supposed to go, anyway.
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#116 Jan 07 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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I also think the stat system works fine but people are trying to "overspecialize" for diminishing returns. Once I got high enough in stats that they started costing more points I figured it was better to start spreading my points around since you get a lot more "mileage". SE has detailed what stats do for combat classes but it was on a topic post a while back.

STR: Physical Attack, Reduces damage taken when Guarding with a shield
VIT: Physical Defense and raises Max HP
DEX: Physical Accuracy, Evasion, and Crit Rate
INT: Magic Attack
MND: Magic Defense and influences healing potency
PIE: Magic Accuracy and Resist rate

Most of the stats are beneficial to all classes defensively at the very least. Right now I have my stats set at around 90 int, 85 dex and pie, 80 mnd, and 75 vit. My classes of choice are Conjurer and Archer, and I really have no issue in any classes at all, especially with the stat conversion traits.

I'd encourage people to not pigeonhole themselves so much and spread out the points a little more because at least defensively it makes a difference. I know for a fact that since I sacrificed like 10 points of int to get dex up 30 points originally I started dodging a lot more and especially now I evade quite a bit of attacks even on Conjurer. I still nuke on CON and DD on ARC extremely well even with more balanced stats. I'm pretty sure your rank vs. target rank is easily the most significant factor in combat.

Edit: I've also been able to main heal on Archer pretty well except for the cases where stuff was set way too difficult in leves. Siphon MP makes a big difference but it didn't matter too much until higher ranks.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:24pm by FDEstellios
#117 Jan 07 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Llester wrote:
I hate to break this to you, but that's how stats work in MMOs. They aren't supposed to be that noticeable to the naked eye. In FFXI, it took roughly 20 points of STR to raise your base damage by 5.

Think about that in relation to your past couple of posts.

I hate to break it to you, but your idea of MMO's is all wrong.

There are two types of MMO's.

Class-based and Stat/Skill-based.

Class-based systems like WoW and FFXI give you stats automatically. They put more emphasis on your class and its specific abilities rather than individual stats and skills. Thus, character progression is highly affected by class-specific gear rather than individual character stats.

Stat/Skill-based systems like FFXIV, RO, GW, etc. let you add your stats/skills manually. The purpose here is to allow you to customize your role and specialize in something. Thus, character progression is highly affected by stat/skill allocation, and should be noticeable to give that sense of progression.

Think about that in relation to whatever the **** it is you think MMO's are.


Allocating future points is something that can be done in both a class-based system or a skill-based system, just like you can have a game where gear plays a huge part or tiny part in defining your character regardless of what system the game uses for progression.

Stats can also be of great significance or little significance, we would still have the same problem of using too small a sample size to test regardless of if you give your character 10 extra dex by allocating it from "magic stat points" or by swapping out gear to gain it. Its good to start tracking statistically what stats do what, its going to take a LOT of information and it will probably change as SE changes stuff, regardless of what kind of pigeon holes either of you want to use for the types of MMOs you think exist...
#118 Jan 07 2011 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So, until someone can find an effective build in which a Diciple of War uses mostly Mind, Intelligence, and/or Piety, the stat-distribution system may as well not exist, because we're just putting points where they are supposed to go, anyway.


I concur with the majority of things you said. The game is not evolved enough to warrant the need for such diversity. When content is added, I could see there being many circumstances where certain builds will be effective. Will there ever be a need for a nuking Marauder? Probably not for obvious reasons. When you have set classes with set abilities that reap more benefits from a certain attributes they will always be the best at that one or two things. That's the point of classes.

I was speaking more of situational attribute swaps. For instance, maybe there will be a NM that is highly resistant to enfeebles, and immune to Magic attacks. Being able to lose some INT for some PIE would be ideal, and having the capability to do this is nice. Or stealing an idea from XI, how nice would it be if you knew you're LS would be camping Tiamat that night, and you were able to reallocate your elemental points into Fire as you tank on gladiator? There will be many oppportunities for such things.

Lastly, who's to say if SE did fix attributes according to class, that that stat point allocation would benefit you the majority of the time? Many different people, many different play styles, many different focuses with each player. The system now allows for such customization. Of course someday people will hammer out the exact points needed for the optimal results in curing, nuking, certain weapon skills, etc, but there are a plethora areas of the game for every class.
#119 Jan 07 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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phoenixcws wrote:
Allocating future points is something that can be done in both a class-based system or a skill-based system, just like you can have a game where gear plays a huge part or tiny part in defining your character regardless of what system the game uses for progression.

Stats can also be of great significance or little significance, we would still have the same problem of using too small a sample size to test regardless of if you give your character 10 extra dex by allocating it from "magic stat points" or by swapping out gear to gain it. Its good to start tracking statistically what stats do what, its going to take a LOT of information and it will probably change as SE changes stuff, regardless of what kind of pigeon holes either of you want to use for the types of MMOs you think exist...

I'm well aware of this. RO did this successfully. Square's problem is that they seem have confused themselves on how to implement the Stat/skill system alongside the Class system. So now we have both largely meaningless stat point allocation, as well as largely meaningless gear. Really, the biggest determining factor in your character's success against mobs is your rank, which is a dumb way to have a system work. Either give us stats that do something, or give us armor that does something. One of the two, or even both, but neither? That's not working out too well.
#120 Jan 07 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Spread your points out a bit more, reallocate when you switch jobs, and use a few of the stat reallocation abilitys to put yourself where you want to be.
Sadly, those stat relocation abilities are widespread across a range of different classes. In order to be able to pull this off you'd need to be a multi-classer already to not only earn the ranks to get the item, but the guild marks to buy it. I hear what you're saying about trying to stay flexible, but there's simply no way to place stats without either favouring one class over another or trying to remain 'balanced'.

Quote:
Guild marks come pretty easily, and by the time you get into middle ranks you'll be swimming in guild marks. The argument that you aren't getting enough marks to buy these traits is a moot point, because if you're worrying about getting an optimal set up out of a class then you better at least be talking rank 25+
Except in order to get the INT->STR traits you need to level a mage and to get a STR->INT trait you need to level a warrior. Those classes rely on opposing statistics, meaning you'll have gotten thus far with either a 'balanced' build or with one which is more heavily geared towards either melee or magic. Furthermore, the lower tier ones only re-allocate up to 5 points and the higher tier ones (+10) are only available once you reach level 30 (40?) and complete a class quest. That's a long way to go while still juggling stats from one to the other.

Quote:
It is ironic that FFXIV's "complete control over character customization" grants far less freedom than FFXI's "job change" system, especially given that SE touted FFXIV's system as so open and comparatively desirable.
A thousand times this. I really love this game, but the stat distribution thing just doesn't make any sense to me. It also seems as though they intentionally dumbed down the effectiveness of stat points in order to counter this glaring oversight. I'd love to see stats based on the class you switch to rather than having to re-allocate them every time. Or at very least, let us do a single complete reset at any aetheryte so we don't have to spend doing several smaller resets over 6 hours.
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#121 Jan 07 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Default
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ExasperatedDenial wrote:
My opinion that system works if you know how to manage it efficiently, sure it's somewhat bothersome, but I enjoy the option to specialize my class, and welcome the diversity it promotes in a class. It requires more thinking, planning, and tinkering which are things I enjoy doing.


Good post, and I agree with this, but this is why I think we should have a stat set for each class. That would allow for infinitely more playing around with stat points and allow for more experimentation, though I maintain that the system could stand some streamlining.

I see the cooldown and the fact that you're forced to choose stats for one class that are sub-optimal for another class as having LESS freedom. It reminds me of how WoW's talent tree would basically force you to choose between PvP and PvE, and it sucked.
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#122 Jan 07 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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eh, I'd like to see it gone. I really only think its there to justify physical level. If people want to put stat points in unconventional setups for a class, and feel that gear isn't enough to do that, then fine, keep it. But please let me reallocate with job switches.
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#123 Jan 07 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
ExasperatedDenial wrote:
My opinion that system works if you know how to manage it efficiently, sure it's somewhat bothersome, but I enjoy the option to specialize my class, and welcome the diversity it promotes in a class. It requires more thinking, planning, and tinkering which are things I enjoy doing.


Good post, and I agree with this, but this is why I think we should have a stat set for each class. That would allow for infinitely more playing around with stat points and allow for more experimentation, though I maintain that the system could stand some streamlining.

I see the cooldown and the fact that you're forced to choose stats for one class that are sub-optimal for another class as having LESS freedom. It reminds me of how WoW's talent tree would basically force you to choose between PvP and PvE, and it sucked.

The biggest problem I see with this is that it would only add to the class alienation that we're experiencing now. Mages don't feel like Mages, Archers don't feel like Archers, Pugilists don't feel like Pugilists, etc. All the classes feel so generic, and removing any sort of limit would only bolster that generic feeling.

Like I said, making stat points have a bigger effect per point would do well to help solve this problem.
#124 Jan 07 2011 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
ExasperatedDenial wrote:
sure it's somewhat bothersome, but I enjoy the option to specialize my class, and welcome the diversity it promotes in a class. It requires more thinking, planning, and tinkering


I keep hearing this, but I don't ever see any of these idealized, hybridized classes that proponents of the system talk about.

Most of the time, the only cross-class abilities I see being used from classes of the opposing school are support or healing spells -- things that are just used for "back-up" or not significantly affected by stat distribution anyway, like Protect and Shell.

As it stands now, I certainly hear lots of talk about the "spell slinging tank" and what-have-you, but I have yet to actually see, say, a Pugulist effectively punch and nuke, or a Marauder stick a significant amount of enfeeblement upon a monster and brutally lunge in for the kill.

It always seems most effective just to stick with what your class is supposed to be good at, occasionally dipping into other classes' abilities (like Second Wind or Bloodbath) the same way one would use a subjob in FFXI, but never specializing an entire build around some sort of Conjuring-Lancer.

So, until someone can find an effective build in which a Diciple of War uses mostly Mind, Intelligence, and/or Piety, the stat-distribution system may as well not exist, because we're just putting points where they are supposed to go, anyway.


Excellent post.

And I believe that a cross-class ability receives a sizable nerf in effectiveness just for attempting to use it with another class. From my experience, I've found that using conjurer abilities while a pugilist results in far less effective heals and buffs overall, despite IDENTICAL stat point allocation.

I think SE wanted to give us more freedom, but I think it ultimately only winds up as a hinderance that goes against the primary goal of the armory system which was to give us the freedom to choose classes on the fly.

Like I keep saying, we already have this issue with gear and would need to carry full sets of warrior, mage and crafting gear at all times to maximize effectiveness (my fiancee and I already have macros for battle and crafting gear setups). I just don't think we ALSO need to deal with the same need to allocate points when simply switching classes.

Spending 6 hours reallocating is WAY too long. By that time, the party I wanted to join will have been long gone and their need for an effective caster or melee class will have been filled by someone else.
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#125 Jan 07 2011 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
ExasperatedDenial wrote:
My opinion that system works if you know how to manage it efficiently, sure it's somewhat bothersome, but I enjoy the option to specialize my class, and welcome the diversity it promotes in a class. It requires more thinking, planning, and tinkering which are things I enjoy doing.


Good post, and I agree with this, but this is why I think we should have a stat set for each class. That would allow for infinitely more playing around with stat points and allow for more experimentation, though I maintain that the system could stand some streamlining.

I see the cooldown and the fact that you're forced to choose stats for one class that are sub-optimal for another class as having LESS freedom. It reminds me of how WoW's talent tree would basically force you to choose between PvP and PvE, and it sucked.

The biggest problem I see with this is that it would only add to the class alienation that we're experiencing now. Mages don't feel like Mages, Archers don't feel like Archers, Pugilists don't feel like Pugilists, etc. All the classes feel so generic, and removing any sort of limit would only bolster that generic feeling.

Like I said, making stat points have a bigger effect per point would do well to help solve this problem.


That's another gripe I have but for a whole different thread: all of the classes seem too generic at this point as it is with an overarching lack of class definition. I think pretty much EVERYONE has leveled CON/THUM to level FOUR to get one or both heals (I have both).

I think a stat set for EACH class would do wonders for this, as it would allow players to better specify each class instead of having one large pile of stats that they have to shovel this way or that depending upon the class they want to play.
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#126 Jan 07 2011 at 6:45 PM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
That's another gripe I have but for a whole different thread: all of the classes seem too generic at this point as it is with an overarching lack of class definition. I think pretty much EVERYONE has leveled CON/THUM to level FOUR to get one or both heals (I have both).

I think a stat set for EACH class would do wonders for this, as it would allow players to better specify each class instead of having one large pile of stats that they have to shovel this way or that depending upon the class they want to play.

I think it should be something that utilizes both the stat system as well as gear, to truly define the classes.

Stats should have a large influence on each class.

STR should noticeably increase Melee damage and some physical defense (so tanks can stack STR and VIT instead of just spamming one stat).
DEX would noticeably increase Archer damage, and Archer/Melee accuracy and evasion.
VIT should keep increasing HP the way it already does, as well as increasing physical defense.
INT should noticeably increase magic damage, healing, and accuracy.
MND should keep increasing MP, as well as increasing magic defense.
PIE should noticeably increase crafting success rate and physical/magical critical chance.

Class-specific armor with distinct looks should also be added. The current armor system should be revamped where only the classes listed on the item can wear it.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 7:46pm by SoumaKyou
#127 Jan 07 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Except in order to get the INT->STR traits you need to level a mage and to get a STR->INT trait you need to level a warrior. Those classes rely on opposing statistics, meaning you'll have gotten thus far with either a 'balanced' build or with one which is more heavily geared towards either melee or magic. Furthermore, the lower tier ones only re-allocate up to 5 points and the higher tier ones (+10) are only available once you reach level 30 (40?) and complete a class quest. That's a long way to go while still juggling stats from one to the other.


I suppose this would be a problem if you were leveling a mage and melee from the ground up, and keeping them the same rank while progressing? This gives me nightmares of thinking about managing inventory, then you get into the whole crafts to repair weapons, or make your own gear. You'd be juggling four classes if you wanted to even be somewhat self-sufficient.

It's hard to say how much stats even affect certain things outside of VIT/HP and MND/MP. My guess is once you reach the upper echelon on most stats the diminishing returns will be something to consider, and maybe allow for a "balanced" build as far as stats go. That's purely speculation, though
#128 Jan 07 2011 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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its kinda a principle thing too. They are saying they want us to level all classes, be able to switch on the fly etc, then making it harder to do so.
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#129 Jan 07 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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155 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
People already can't grasp most of the systems in this game and you think they can handle changing classes with stat reallocation mid fight?

Half of the people can't even allocate correctly in the first place.



that
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#130 Jan 07 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
TheRealDestian wrote:
That's another gripe I have but for a whole different thread: all of the classes seem too generic at this point as it is with an overarching lack of class definition. I think pretty much EVERYONE has leveled CON/THUM to level FOUR to get one or both heals (I have both).

I think a stat set for EACH class would do wonders for this, as it would allow players to better specify each class instead of having one large pile of stats that they have to shovel this way or that depending upon the class they want to play.

I think it should be something that utilizes both the stat system as well as gear, to truly define the classes.

Stats should have a large influence on each class.

STR should noticeably increase Melee damage and some physical defense (so tanks can stack STR and VIT instead of just spamming one stat).
DEX would noticeably increase Archer damage, and Archer/Melee accuracy and evasion.
VIT should keep increasing HP the way it already does, as well as increasing physical defense.
INT should noticeably increase magic damage, healing, and accuracy.
MND should keep increasing MP, as well as increasing magic defense.
PIE should noticeably increase crafting success rate and physical/magical critical chance.

Class-specific armor with distinct looks should also be added. The current armor system should be revamped where only the classes listed on the item can wear it.


I would like this very much.

I could see it working out rather well, and frankly, I expect to get class-specific full armor sets in the endgame at some point anyway.
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#131 Jan 07 2011 at 8:01 PM Rating: Decent
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If find the Physical level seperate from your rank to be a very stupid concept. Your stats should level in sync to each class (and be different for each class, emphasis on that classes strengths/weaknesses). I capped phy way back and it feels like such a waste seeing all that exp still showing as gained but disapearing into nowhere.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 8:01pm by LyleVertigo
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#132 Jan 07 2011 at 9:11 PM Rating: Default
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TheRealDestian wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
I think it should be something that utilizes both the stat system as well as gear, to truly define the classes.

Stats should have a large influence on each class.

STR should noticeably increase Melee damage and some physical defense (so tanks can stack STR and VIT instead of just spamming one stat).
DEX would noticeably increase Archer damage, and Archer/Melee accuracy and evasion.
VIT should keep increasing HP the way it already does, as well as increasing physical defense.
INT should noticeably increase magic damage, healing, and accuracy.
MND should keep increasing MP, as well as increasing magic defense.
PIE should noticeably increase crafting success rate and physical/magical critical chance.

Class-specific armor with distinct looks should also be added. The current armor system should be revamped where only the classes listed on the item can wear it.


I would like this very much.

I could see it working out rather well, and frankly, I expect to get class-specific full armor sets in the endgame at some point anyway.

Class-specific armor would also allow enough of a requirement (having to carry around multiple sets of armor) for Square to remove the time limit on stat reset, and also remove the reset limit, allowing you to do a full reset without it being overpowered, while also not further losing class distinction.
#133 Jan 07 2011 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
If find the Physical level seperate from your rank to be a very stupid concept. Your stats should level in sync to each class (and be different for each class, emphasis on that classes strengths/weaknesses). I capped phy way back and it feels like such a waste seeing all that exp still showing as gained but disapearing into nowhere.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 8:01pm by LyleVertigo


I think we have a physical level separate from class rank as an artificial marker specifically so we can reallocate points faster than simply performing tasks which would raise the root physical attribute. Its a faster way of getting base stats where you want them for a particular role/class than having to rework them up or down everytime you want to retool your character for a different role (as nearly every other skill based game does) while still keeping some attributes customizable and independent of job/class.

The popular alternatives are just not having it, or setting attributes to raise or lower around a cap as you perform skills that require that attribute... This is a middle ground, in my opinion good in concept, bad in current implementation/execution.
#134 Jan 07 2011 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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435 posts
phoenixcws wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
If find the Physical level seperate from your rank to be a very stupid concept. Your stats should level in sync to each class (and be different for each class, emphasis on that classes strengths/weaknesses). I capped phy way back and it feels like such a waste seeing all that exp still showing as gained but disapearing into nowhere.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 8:01pm by LyleVertigo


I think we have a physical level separate from class rank as an artificial marker specifically so we can reallocate points faster than simply performing tasks which would raise the root physical attribute. Its a faster way of getting base stats where you want them for a particular role/class than having to rework them up or down everytime you want to retool your character for a different role (as nearly every other skill based game does) while still keeping some attributes customizable and independent of job/class.

The popular alternatives are just not having it, or setting attributes to raise or lower around a cap as you perform skills that require that attribute... This is a middle ground, in my opinion good in concept, bad in current implementation/execution.


I don't have any problem with the physical level, myself. I think it's a good gauge of where you are and helps you level other jobs faster once you've leveled one job a great deal.

My issue is with how switching classes is actually actively discouraged due to how the current system works. I think the idea of each class having its own set of stat points would be preferable, since then you can experiment with each class individually without needing to worry about your stat settings carrying over from one class to the next and gimping it.
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#135 Jan 08 2011 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
phoenixcws wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
If find the Physical level seperate from your rank to be a very stupid concept. Your stats should level in sync to each class (and be different for each class, emphasis on that classes strengths/weaknesses). I capped phy way back and it feels like such a waste seeing all that exp still showing as gained but disapearing into nowhere.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 8:01pm by LyleVertigo


I think we have a physical level separate from class rank as an artificial marker specifically so we can reallocate points faster than simply performing tasks which would raise the root physical attribute. Its a faster way of getting base stats where you want them for a particular role/class than having to rework them up or down everytime you want to retool your character for a different role (as nearly every other skill based game does) while still keeping some attributes customizable and independent of job/class.

The popular alternatives are just not having it, or setting attributes to raise or lower around a cap as you perform skills that require that attribute... This is a middle ground, in my opinion good in concept, bad in current implementation/execution.


I don't have any problem with the physical level, myself. I think it's a good gauge of where you are and helps you level other jobs faster once you've leveled one job a great deal.

My issue is with how switching classes is actually actively discouraged due to how the current system works. I think the idea of each class having its own set of stat points would be preferable, since then you can experiment with each class individually without needing to worry about your stat settings carrying over from one class to the next and gimping it.



It sounds like tweaking the current system to give back all the stat points upon redistribution it what most of the opponents of the current system would like, and usability-wise allow for some user specified "stat templates" to be defined and allow for them to be automatically switched to when weapon/class/job is switched if desired...

Since it sounds like this would be acceptable, my question would be, what if there was a time delay, instead of instantly automatically switching all stats, what if switching from template to template was done 1 stat ever 10 seconds, or 1 every minute, or... and so on?

The system would still provide the flexibility to play all the classes optimally on just one character, but the time delay would be SE's means of discouraging constant flip-flopping, in turn encouraging specialization to whatever degree they want by adjusting the switch time.

I personally think:
instant switch time makes sense,
switch time between 30 seconds and 8 hours is next to worthless (long enough to be a serious PITA, but short enough that it could just be set to happen overnight, so no real encouragement/discouragement, just frustration achieved)
switch time 8 hours to a day gets the point across (even with proper planning there is still a penalty longer than sleep time)
a day or two would get specialization stints lasting a week (longer for hardcore players, shorter for those that dont mind missing a day of play in their schedule), allowing the crafter specs to reap rewards in the market due to their specialization, and DoW/DoM to reap rewards in battles not available to their crafter counterparts.
much over 2 days is in my personal opinion too much time spent in limbo...

your thoughts ?
#136 Jan 08 2011 at 12:44 AM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
People already can't grasp most of the systems in this game and you think they can handle changing classes with stat reallocation mid fight?

Half of the people can't even allocate correctly in the first place.


I'm pretty sure this was the attitude people were talking about in those misc.threads, Doc. No offense intended.

Edited, Jan 8th 2011 1:44am by hexaemeron
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#137 Jan 08 2011 at 1:16 AM Rating: Default
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phoenixcws wrote:
It sounds like tweaking the current system to give back all the stat points upon redistribution it what most of the opponents of the current system would like, and usability-wise allow for some user specified "stat templates" to be defined and allow for them to be automatically switched to when weapon/class/job is switched if desired...

Since it sounds like this would be acceptable, my question would be, what if there was a time delay, instead of instantly automatically switching all stats, what if switching from template to template was done 1 stat ever 10 seconds, or 1 every minute, or... and so on?

The system would still provide the flexibility to play all the classes optimally on just one character, but the time delay would be SE's means of discouraging constant flip-flopping, in turn encouraging specialization to whatever degree they want by adjusting the switch time.

I personally think:
instant switch time makes sense,
switch time between 30 seconds and 8 hours is next to worthless (long enough to be a serious PITA, but short enough that it could just be set to happen overnight, so no real encouragement/discouragement, just frustration achieved)
switch time 8 hours to a day gets the point across (even with proper planning there is still a penalty longer than sleep time)
a day or two would get specialization stints lasting a week (longer for hardcore players, shorter for those that dont mind missing a day of play in their schedule), allowing the crafter specs to reap rewards in the market due to their specialization, and DoW/DoM to reap rewards in battles not available to their crafter counterparts.
much over 2 days is in my personal opinion too much time spent in limbo...

your thoughts ?


You just gave me another idea...

What about, instead of switching over time, you had "bonus stat points" that accumulated if you spent a long enough time as the same class? I think all of your base points should move over immediately, but the longer you spent as that class, the more bonus points you'd get (with a cap, obviously) that would make you stronger over time.

Maybe you'd have to get the points through combat or crafting, but the idea would be that your character is "warming up" as these extra points accumulate.

I dunno. Is that too weird?
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#138 Jan 08 2011 at 1:55 AM Rating: Good
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This thread should be in the feedback forum.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#139 Jan 08 2011 at 2:42 AM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:

I hate to break it to you, but your idea of MMO's is all wrong.

There are two types of MMO's.

Class-based and Stat/Skill-based.

Class-based systems like WoW and FFXI give you stats automatically. They put more emphasis on your class and its specific abilities rather than individual stats and skills. Thus, character progression is highly affected by class-specific gear rather than individual character stats.

Stat/Skill-based systems like FFXIV, RO, GW, etc. let you add your stats/skills manually. The purpose here is to allow you to customize your role and specialize in something. Thus, character progression is highly affected by stat/skill allocation, and should be noticeable to give that sense of progression.

Think about that in relation to whatever the **** it is you think MMO's are.


aside from the fact that you just decided to pick one small part of an MMO (stats) and use it as a basis for categorizing all MMOs, you also completely missed the context of what i was saying about stats in relation to damage. congratulations, you're incompetent.
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#140 Jan 08 2011 at 5:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Llester wrote:
aside from the fact that you just decided to pick one small part of an MMO (stats) and use it as a basis for categorizing all MMOs, you also completely missed the context of what i was saying about stats in relation to damage. congratulations, you're incompetent.

You're more than welcome to dispute my claim. Sad part is that you can't.
#141 Jan 08 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
This thread should be in the feedback forum.


It started as just an opinion thread and gradually made its way to being a suggestion thread.
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#142 Jan 08 2011 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
phoenixcws wrote:
It sounds like tweaking the current system to give back all the stat points upon redistribution it what most of the opponents of the current system would like, and usability-wise allow for some user specified "stat templates" to be defined and allow for them to be automatically switched to when weapon/class/job is switched if desired...

Since it sounds like this would be acceptable, my question would be, what if there was a time delay, instead of instantly automatically switching all stats, what if switching from template to template was done 1 stat ever 10 seconds, or 1 every minute, or... and so on?

The system would still provide the flexibility to play all the classes optimally on just one character, but the time delay would be SE's means of discouraging constant flip-flopping, in turn encouraging specialization to whatever degree they want by adjusting the switch time.

I personally think:
instant switch time makes sense,
switch time between 30 seconds and 8 hours is next to worthless (long enough to be a serious PITA, but short enough that it could just be set to happen overnight, so no real encouragement/discouragement, just frustration achieved)
switch time 8 hours to a day gets the point across (even with proper planning there is still a penalty longer than sleep time)
a day or two would get specialization stints lasting a week (longer for hardcore players, shorter for those that dont mind missing a day of play in their schedule), allowing the crafter specs to reap rewards in the market due to their specialization, and DoW/DoM to reap rewards in battles not available to their crafter counterparts.
much over 2 days is in my personal opinion too much time spent in limbo...

your thoughts ?


You just gave me another idea...

What about, instead of switching over time, you had "bonus stat points" that accumulated if you spent a long enough time as the same class? I think all of your base points should move over immediately, but the longer you spent as that class, the more bonus points you'd get (with a cap, obviously) that would make you stronger over time.

Maybe you'd have to get the points through combat or crafting, but the idea would be that your character is "warming up" as these extra points accumulate.

I dunno. Is that too weird?



Not too weird at all. I'd like it, it would keep the same ability to personalize your stats within a job and provide some benefit to specializing in a particular job while keeping the flexibility of being able to change specializations.

If I had to look into my crystal ball (and be a bit of a devil's advocate), I'd say that we'd get similar arguments only along the lines of either having to stay in a class long enough to cap out on bonus points before I'm effective, or the bonus stat points would be so ineffective/negligible that we have some wanting it just removed...

But yeah I'd like it, and my opinion is starting to solidify around definitely keeping stat points, keeping the ability to customize your base stats in a job, but finding the right benefit to specializing in one job that doesnt remove the ability for one character to become optimal at any job.
#143 Jan 08 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
As some one whose crafts don't align with their DoW I truley wish there was some other use for Physical Level... maybe have it auto boost whatever class/job you're on. It could still be a good boost, maybe instead of stat points, every few levels you could put a point into a focus ala D&D... I hit level 5 I can boost 1 skill or affinity by x amount and leave the elemental affinities on there as well, but let your class and equipment determine your stats.

What I'm saying is I could put 1 point into perception or craftsmanship or I could put it towards critical hits or accuracy... maybe more like merit points in XI. That way there wouldn't be any gimping of classes, but you COULD focus on certain areas as a bonus? I wish I could convery what's in my head better but this is the best I can get it to come out as.
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#144 Jan 08 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
As some one whose crafts don't align with their DoW I truley wish there was some other use for Physical Level... maybe have it auto boost whatever class/job you're on. It could still be a good boost, maybe instead of stat points, every few levels you could put a point into a focus ala D&D... I hit level 5 I can boost 1 skill or affinity by x amount and leave the elemental affinities on there as well, but let your class and equipment determine your stats.

What I'm saying is I could put 1 point into perception or craftsmanship or I could put it towards critical hits or accuracy... maybe more like merit points in XI. That way there wouldn't be any gimping of classes, but you COULD focus on certain areas as a bonus? I wish I could convery what's in my head better but this is the best I can get it to come out as.


I think what you mean is that you'd simply like to specialize each class without gimping other classes as a result and instead let gear decide which class gets the boost.

Is that right?
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#145 Jan 08 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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After our discussions here, I made a proper suggestion thread in the feedback forum:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=173&mid=1294506158285767001&page=1#m1294506158285767001

I think I'll probably do this in the future: start a thread here, get some (hopefully more civil) discussion going, get some ideas and then put it where the devs are more likely to see it.
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#146 Jan 08 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
You don't think 5-10 points PER hit is good?

Seems like 10 points on hits that do 100 lets say is a 10% increase in damage.

Seems important to me.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:07pm by DoctorMog

Except it takes 30+ stat points, and the difference is so small that one would need to make logs of the min/max damage per hit over a period of, say, 1000 hits before and after stat allocation, to even be able to determine that increase.

DEX doesn't noticeably increase accuracy. You mean to tell me the 70 points I have in it isn't supposed to be noticeable against having the base 17 points? That's working as intended? FFXI's accuracy stat at least had noticeable results. WoW has a noticeable hit rating that caps at 8%. RO's was very noticeable as well against high flee targets.

How is XIV's stat system better? The only noticeable gain when it comes to stats in this game are with VIT and MND increasing HP and MP. Hurrah?

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:15pm by SoumaKyou



I hate to break this to you, but that's how stats work in MMOs. They aren't supposed to be that noticeable to the naked eye. In FFXI, it took roughly 20 points of STR to raise your base damage by 5.

Think about that in relation to your past couple of posts.


Did you even PLAY ffxi? 20 points in str would increase WS damage by several hundred points depending on class and the modifiers involved. 2 dex = 1 acc (or 1:1 w/ a 2H weapon). Even SLIGHT upgrades in stats made a pretty noticeable difference in ffxi. If that is really your argument here, you might want to go back and actually PLAY ffxi some more before trying to make any kind of comparison about it, because as it stands, you clearly have no clue how that game worked.

Edited, Jan 8th 2011 1:26pm by BartelX
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#147 Jan 08 2011 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
TheRealDestian wrote:
Is that right?


Nah I'd still like something Merit-ish where you could even further give bonus effects to your character, but not physical stats. So like I said maybe special WS or bonus effects to current WS or ACC or EVA or craftmanship... anything but stats that affect everything by their number.
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#148 Jan 08 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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I would really like for them to go ahead and take the limit off of stat reallocation. I understand the argument against it, the points that were made do make sense. I just feel that you you say we have freedom and that we can freely reallocate stats, then we really should be able to do that. I am not going to plan out how the when I'm going to play what jobs all of the time. I simply refuse to, I need to live in the moment from time to time. Sometimes I'll be crafting and then ls buddies need my lancer skills. I want my stats to be exactly right (in my eyes) so I can be on my A game for my ls buddies. I can't do that with the system the way it is. Yes, sometime ADD kicks in and I just have to follow that butterfly into Mor Dhona. But, that is besides the point.

If you're going to give us freedom, then really do so. Don't be hesitant and not really give us the freedom that you say we have. You might as well give us static stats like on FFXI. Which is actually what I assumed that FFXIV was going to be like that, one of the reasons I chose Mi'qote. I really didn't mind the fact that you couldn't change the stats of your character in FFXI. Made you really think about the race you chose. You could do every job, not going to argue with anyone on this point. The thing was, if you actually wanted to be good at certain jobs you have to think outside the box. I got tired of my Elvaan missing all the time as a warrior. So, I started a Mithra and have been loving that agile race ever since. I can be warrior or paladin, I just play differently than I would on my Elvaan. I really liked seeing people trying new things and pushing the envelope.

I kind of would like to have some of that in FFXIV, even if you can still allocate some points. I just like knowing that my Miqo'te is naturally more agile than an Elezen or w/e. I kind of don't like the whole "Every race can do any job exactly the same way. We are all equal, no race excels in any area" thing. I mean, we might as well just have races with all the same body type imho. But, I can roll with how you can allocate points. If I couldn't, I wouldn't be playing the game, was just saying.

I know I'm talking way too much, but I'm almost finished. I don't think that it would be hard for them to not allow you to be able to change jobs and stats in the middle of a battle. It would be a huge oversight if they didn't even think about the possibility that they could add that restriction.
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#149 Jan 08 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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QuickShadoww wrote:
Shamans and Paladins in WoW were always able to do end games in all 3 roles (enhance, elemental and resto / ret, tank and holy) since WoW came out. It was just harder to perform well and to get the appropriate gear (an enhance shammy used to be top dps in vanilla wow raids like BWL and AQ40). Flexibility = harder to be optimal in every role. Flexibility /= easy mode faceroll wins.


Incorrect.

Not only are you brown nosing Doctor"I'mNeverWrongYou'reJustTooStupidTooSeeMyBrilliance"Mog, but you're trying to put out false information about WoW. Hint: If you were "top DPS" in the vanilla raids as a hybrid, your other players frankly were utterly terrible. You may as well be trying to lie and say "My 2004 RDM did more damage than any RNG or BLM back then!"

Fact: Hybrids in WoW weren't actually viable damage dealers until Wrath of the Lich King. Enhancement/Elemental Shamans were given just enough raid buffs to make those two spots viable on the buffs alone (plus blood lust/heroism), and Shadow Priests were given low DPS and high mana regen for the groups they were in (Ret Paladins were just... no). It wasn't until they abandoned that moronic mindset in the 2nd expansion that all hybrids had all of their roles almost equal to the 'pure' classes.

The fact that you really don't understand what flexibility is sad. Go look up the definition.

Strike 3.

DoctorMog wrote:
Its interesting that everyone can be a jerk to me, but as soon as I turn it around, its flaunted like Im the only one doing it.

It seems you missed quoting the person who said the exact same "protip" line to me 2 post earlier.


From what I see, you're the one slinging the mud first, and that just screams of childishness. All you've posted is rampant defense of a stat allocation system that allows you to be sub-optimal in any role you choose. People stated that such a system is moronic (which it is), and you started to call people stupid.

You're the one insulting people in your posts and in videos. So yes, you do deserve to be treated like a jerk as you're the one presenting himself as such.

DoctorMog wrote:
Actually, my distaste is only directed at the people who look at my evidence for something, and then continue to refute my evidence with half cocked theories on how they think the game could be better.


What evidence? You've posted NOTHING even resembling evidence aside from ranting on the forums about how people don't see your vision of how the game is supposed to be played and some random videos illustrating someone that's fine with loading up his class with non-useful/non-pertinent stats and calling it "flexible" and "the way it should be done but people are too stupid to figure it out".

DoctorMog wrote:
People need to work out the best way to use the system, offer CONSTRUCTIVE feedback in the correct forum, and to stop driving the people who are looking for information AWAY from these forums.


Lapping at the developer's balls isn't constructive.

Pointing out that such a restricted stat allocation system combined with an on-the-fly class change feature is counter-productive? That's constructive. They didn't rant; they didn't curse out SE; they merely pointed out what common sense tells them.

DoctorMog wrote:
Who's opinion of better though?

Yours?

Put it in the correct forum, leave your bashing out of the forums people read looking for INFORMATION. Not opinions.


Pot. Kettle.

You've posted nothing but an opinion. So why didn't you post this in the correct forum, according to your own statement?

You've stated nothing but opinions after opinions. Here's something factual for you to chew on:

Omena wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
What really needs to happen to this game is that people need to stop bashing it. The #1 issue with this game is the 10% who are unhappy with the game and feel the need to voice their opinion so loudly on the forums that they give the illusion that they are the majority, when in fact they are not.

The company itself says the game sucks. That's why it's free. That's why my LS of probably ~100 members is completely dead most of the time. It's time to wake up to reality: people don't like the game.


Argue all you want DoctorMog about how the people need to stop bashing it and just accept it. Ultimately, they're right and you're WRONG because the company's public statement sides with THEM and not YOU.
#150 Jan 08 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Keeping baseline stats balanced, hmm what a concept, of course there is the addition of class, gear, and food, as well.

Without even using allocating, I gain +10 respective stats to the class I'm on (just class and gear, and balanced stats from the get go). Something simple as that, can yield alot. Cannot believe some people will never get it. Earn your guild marks, spend them on stats, keep your points balanced, and tweak when you need to, not hard.

I see alot have not reached rank 50 on a class, guess what YOU ARE CAPPED! If your physical level is level 50, but your Con is rank 20, you will only have the stats of a rank 20 conj, adding more will do nothing. SE was one MMO company that always prioritized balance, it's not going to change with FFXIV.





Edited, Jan 8th 2011 7:26pm by Spyrit178
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#151 Jan 08 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
Did you even PLAY ffxi? 20 points in str would increase WS damage by several hundred points depending on class and the modifiers involved. 2 dex = 1 acc (or 1:1 w/ a 2H weapon). Even SLIGHT upgrades in stats made a pretty noticeable difference in ffxi.
This could be partially attributed to FFXI working with much smaller stat values. We're talking about a game where +6 in any stat at lv75 meant said piece of gear coming with minus stats, some ridiculously rare HQ crafted gear or a drop from some HNM that required an alliance to kill with a 2% drop rate, and even then it would still be highly valued.

That being said, it'd be difficult to have flexibility if you do away with the stat allocation system. It'd be nice and obviously more streamlined if it went away, though. Additionally, we should consider that hybridization would require boosts to affinity with certain skills belonging to other classes. If, say, Fencer is ever actually released and I wanted to remake my taru RDM from FFXI with some actual melee focus, but cures, nukes and enfeebles take notable hits to effect/potency due to FNC being a DoW class, what I'd have is a melee DD with some gimpy spells. The short of it would be that those arguing for hybridization should remember that it takes more than stats for that to properly work.
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