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Should stat points be done away with entirely?Follow

#152 Jan 08 2011 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
And yes, that video comment was a shot directly at the people who are too stupid to take 5 seconds and figure something out on their own instead of having to be told what to do.

Think for yourselves people.


StrijderVechter wrote:
QuickShadoww wrote:
Shamans and Paladins in WoW were always able to do end games in all 3 roles (enhance, elemental and resto / ret, tank and holy) since WoW came out. It was just harder to perform well and to get the appropriate gear (an enhance shammy used to be top dps in vanilla wow raids like BWL and AQ40). Flexibility = harder to be optimal in every role. Flexibility /= easy mode faceroll wins.


Incorrect.

Not only are you brown nosing Doctor"I'mNeverWrongYou'reJustTooStupidTooSeeMyBrilliance"Mog, but you're trying to put out false information about WoW. Hint: If you were "top DPS" in the vanilla raids as a hybrid, your other players frankly were utterly terrible. You may as well be trying to lie and say "My 2004 RDM did more damage than any RNG or BLM back then!"

Fact: Hybrids in WoW weren't actually viable damage dealers until Wrath of the Lich King. Enhancement/Elemental Shamans were given just enough raid buffs to make those two spots viable on the buffs alone (plus blood lust/heroism), and Shadow Priests were given low DPS and high mana regen for the groups they were in (Ret Paladins were just... no). It wasn't until they abandoned that moronic mindset in the 2nd expansion that all hybrids had all of their roles almost equal to the 'pure' classes.

The fact that you really don't understand what flexibility is sad. Go look up the definition.

Strike 3.

DoctorMog wrote:
Its interesting that everyone can be a jerk to me, but as soon as I turn it around, its flaunted like Im the only one doing it.

It seems you missed quoting the person who said the exact same "protip" line to me 2 post earlier.


From what I see, you're the one slinging the mud first, and that just screams of childishness. All you've posted is rampant defense of a stat allocation system that allows you to be sub-optimal in any role you choose. People stated that such a system is moronic (which it is), and you started to call people stupid.

You're the one insulting people in your posts and in videos. So yes, you do deserve to be treated like a jerk as you're the one presenting himself as such.

DoctorMog wrote:
Actually, my distaste is only directed at the people who look at my evidence for something, and then continue to refute my evidence with half cocked theories on how they think the game could be better.


What evidence? You've posted NOTHING even resembling evidence aside from ranting on the forums about how people don't see your vision of how the game is supposed to be played and some random videos illustrating someone that's fine with loading up his class with non-useful/non-pertinent stats and calling it "flexible" and "the way it should be done but people are too stupid to figure it out".

DoctorMog wrote:
People need to work out the best way to use the system, offer CONSTRUCTIVE feedback in the correct forum, and to stop driving the people who are looking for information AWAY from these forums.


Lapping at the developer's balls isn't constructive.

Pointing out that such a restricted stat allocation system combined with an on-the-fly class change feature is counter-productive? That's constructive. They didn't rant; they didn't curse out SE; they merely pointed out what common sense tells them.

DoctorMog wrote:
Who's opinion of better though?

Yours?

Put it in the correct forum, leave your bashing out of the forums people read looking for INFORMATION. Not opinions.


Pot. Kettle.

You've posted nothing but an opinion. So why didn't you post this in the correct forum, according to your own statement?

You've stated nothing but opinions after opinions. Here's something factual for you to chew on:

Omena wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
What really needs to happen to this game is that people need to stop bashing it. The #1 issue with this game is the 10% who are unhappy with the game and feel the need to voice their opinion so loudly on the forums that they give the illusion that they are the majority, when in fact they are not.

The company itself says the game sucks. That's why it's free. That's why my LS of probably ~100 members is completely dead most of the time. It's time to wake up to reality: people don't like the game.


Argue all you want DoctorMog about how the people need to stop bashing it and just accept it. Ultimately, they're right and you're WRONG because the company's public statement sides with THEM and not YOU.




multi quote own
#153 Jan 08 2011 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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Stats are just part of the picture, so is affinity, gear, the class itself, traits, food, pots. Try your sub spells after you hit 100% affinity with your subs class. Too many in this thread haven't gotten far enough in the game to make factual statements about the system as a whole. You need to experince the big picture first, then make descisions, based on fact.

Doctor Mog has alot of experince in the game, and anyone in a simular state is agreeing with him, what does this tell you?

Edited, Jan 8th 2011 9:35pm by Spyrit178
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#154 Jan 08 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Stats are just part of the picture, so is affinity, gear, the class itself, traits, food, pots. Try your sub spells after you hit 100% affinity with your subs class. Too many in this thread haven't gotten far enough in the game to make factual statements about the system as a whole. You need to experince the big picture first, then make descisions, based on fact.

Doctor Mog has alot of experince in the game, and anyone in a simular state is agreeing with him, what does this tell you?]


Mog argued that the system is fine. People disagreed and explained that, even in his video, he was forced to build a sub-optimal character and that doing so defeats the purpose of a system where we're freely allowed to change classes at any time.

Mog then proceeded to call everyone morons for not agreeing with him.

Besides, you don't want to use the experiences of someone who powerleveled as the basis of whether or not the system works. Clearly, it works for him (or he claims it does). The question is, who is it NOT working for and why?

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 12:05am by TheRealDestian
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#155 Jan 08 2011 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Your highest rank is 22, have you collected all the stat books? Have you gotten any affinity for your subs? It's just common sense if you plan on ranking up more than just 2 classes, it is probably wise to keep your stats balanced. All classes battling, gathering, and crafting have different stats. It is much easier to boost from balanced baseline, than an unbalanced one.

This is DEFINATELY, not a game to put all your eggs in one basket.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 12:41am by Spyrit178
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#156 Jan 09 2011 at 12:02 AM Rating: Good
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Your highest rank is 22, have you collected all the stat books? Have you gotten any affinity for your subs? It's just common sense if you plan on ranking up more than just 2 classes, it is probably wise to keep your stats balanced. All classes battling, gathering, and crafting have different stats. It is much easier to boost from balanced baseline, than an unbalanced one.

This is DEFINATELY, not a game to put all your eggs in one basket.


I'm an r37 glad (50 phys) and although I might not be RANK 50 yet, I can tell you from my experiences that stat allocation is just awful. As a tank, I want to have max VIT so that I am maxing out my HP and survivability. I'd also like to have very high DEX and STR so that I'm able to do damage, hold hate, and also absorb more damage w/ my shield. I also like to have some MND so that in a pinch I can heal myself and do so for a decent amount while not running out of MP. I have absolutely ZERO use for INT or PIE. Unfortunately, I also a play an R35 CON, where both INT and PIE to at least a mediocre level are very important to me, since I solo a lot and need them to land my spells successfully.

Therefore, because of the current system, I'm basically required to have a sub-optimal GLAD build because I have stats allocated in INT and PIE, and also have a VERY mediocre CON build (at best) because I need to keep my stats high for when I swap back to glad (my main).

I will also let you know that I have all my stat books available (+5's and +10's), and I also have several affinity traits. I understand what you are trying to say, in that because of these traits I can become closer to optimal, but it is still not optimal. Currently I can cap my VIT, but don't even come CLOSE on DEX or STR, and I'm r37. Imagine how far off I'll be at 50. With those extra 100+ points from INT and PIE, I could be a heck of a lot closer to those caps. Stats may not be as important as they are in some games, but they do make a difference, and being pigeonholed by bad design really stinks imo.

I'm all for a change to the system. All I want is to be able to "save" builds for each class. I really don't think that is too much to ask. I am also posting this into the feedback forum thread in hopes that it will be seen.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 1:03am by BartelX
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#157 Jan 09 2011 at 12:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Your highest rank is 22, have you collected all the stat books? Have you gotten any affinity for your subs? It's just common sense if you plan on ranking up more than just 2 classes, it is probably wise to keep your stats balanced. All classes battling, gathering, and crafting have different stats. It is much easier to boost from balanced baseline, than an unbalanced one.

This is DEFINATELY, not a game to put all your eggs in one basket.


It's not just about eggs in baskets. It's about how hideously inconvenient the system is all around.

Imagine the following hypothetical scenario:

I've just specced for CON because my LS needs a good healer when they suddenly change plans and the party falls apart. Minutes later, another LS mate needs a piece of armor built and I'm the highest armorer in the LS. However, my stats for armorer are completely screwed up because I'm specced to be a conjurer.

In order to swing my stats back, I have to sit there and wait a half hour, but since my LS mate would like me to HQ the item, I'd need to swing more than just 10% of my stats back if I want to be an effective enough armorer to have a good chance of HQing.

After swinging 10% and trying it anyway (and failing to HQ it), a friend logs on and wants to go grinding, except that I'm now no longer specced to be a good conjurer so I need to wait at least another half hour again.

Do you see how this system could use some improvement? All we really need is a stat setup for each class.

I hear what you're saying: "Why level armorer and conjurer when their stats don't line up?" Because maybe I like casting spells AND building armor. Why should that be a huge roadblock to my ability to enjoy the game?

If the armory system is going to exist in this game, it should offer the freedom that it promises, not make it so changing classes is almost meaningless unless you also spend the possible 6 hours of changing your stats so you can be effective as that class.

It's a horribly inconvenient and unnecessary system that only serves to hinder the devs' intentions of giving players the freedom to change classes on the fly.
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#158 Jan 09 2011 at 1:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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BartelX wrote:
Llester wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
You don't think 5-10 points PER hit is good?

Seems like 10 points on hits that do 100 lets say is a 10% increase in damage.

Seems important to me.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:07pm by DoctorMog

Except it takes 30+ stat points, and the difference is so small that one would need to make logs of the min/max damage per hit over a period of, say, 1000 hits before and after stat allocation, to even be able to determine that increase.

DEX doesn't noticeably increase accuracy. You mean to tell me the 70 points I have in it isn't supposed to be noticeable against having the base 17 points? That's working as intended? FFXI's accuracy stat at least had noticeable results. WoW has a noticeable hit rating that caps at 8%. RO's was very noticeable as well against high flee targets.

How is XIV's stat system better? The only noticeable gain when it comes to stats in this game are with VIT and MND increasing HP and MP. Hurrah?

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 4:15pm by SoumaKyou



I hate to break this to you, but that's how stats work in MMOs. They aren't supposed to be that noticeable to the naked eye. In FFXI, it took roughly 20 points of STR to raise your base damage by 5.

Think about that in relation to your past couple of posts.


Did you even PLAY ffxi? 20 points in str would increase WS damage by several hundred points depending on class and the modifiers involved. 2 dex = 1 acc (or 1:1 w/ a 2H weapon). Even SLIGHT upgrades in stats made a pretty noticeable difference in ffxi. If that is really your argument here, you might want to go back and actually PLAY ffxi some more before trying to make any kind of comparison about it, because as it stands, you clearly have no clue how that game worked.

Edited, Jan 8th 2011 1:26pm by BartelX


Sorry wrong answer.
While it is true that several weaponskills had some hefty STR modifiers, you are missing two important points.

1. 20STR in no way shape or form would increase WS damage by "several hundred points". That's ludicrous. And you're accusing me of being ill-informed? Think before you type. You obviously haven't read up on damage equations. While its true SAM's YGK weaponskills have a 75% STR modifier, that doesn't change the fact that 20 points of STR will never, ever equal "several hundred points of damage". You're just plain wrong there.

2. And this is the really important point. We were discussing base damage, not weaponskill damage, so you failed there too.

As for your final point, that slight stat upgrades made a "pretty noticeable difference", well you're wrong once more. More than wrong, really. I honestly don't see how you can rationally accuse me of not playing FFXI and then make that statement without being horribly deluded. Try looking again, with your real eyes, not your crazy eyes.

There are very few pieces of gear in FFXI that have a noticeable (to the naked eye) impact on melee performance, and most of the pieces that do have a noticeable impact do so by way of secondary stats such as acc, attack or haste. Byakko's Haidate, for instance, is one of those pieces that makes a noticeable difference in performance, but even that is more due to the 5% haste than the 15DEX.

Think about it this way. 4 STR raises base damage by one in FFXI. If you have a 100 damage weapon, and add 20 STR, that is essentially (i'm simplifying this a lot. I'm quite familiar with the damage formulas but not familiar enough to go into detail here)raising the base damage of your weapon to 105.

Now you're going to tell me that a 105 damage weapon is going to do several hundred more points of damage than a 100 damage weapon? Ok ok i know, you were talking about weaponskills (even though no one else was. and very few of them have significant modifiers btw. YGK are the only ones that go over 50% to my knowledge so you don't even have much to stand on there) but even so. You might be able to eyeball the extra 5-10 points of actual damage per swing from that 5 points of base damage but more probably you're just seeing what you want to see. Its a good damage increase, i'm not arguing that. But you're going to be hard pressed to see it without a hefty placebo effect or a parser.

tl;dr you are mistaken on all counts, and i forgot wth this thread was about




Edited, Jan 9th 2011 2:28am by Llester

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 2:31am by Llester
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#159Rankin657, Posted: Jan 09 2011 at 1:44 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Also don't forget that the game has fell in price from $50 to $30 in like 3 months pretty evident that there's a problem selling it
#160 Jan 09 2011 at 1:44 AM Rating: Good
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okay, i've skimmed through this thread. giant tl;dr. mostly ppl just complaining AS USUAL that it doesn't suit their needs to a t while if it did, they'd prolly complain it was too easy. you make it so anyone can change jobs and attributes at any time and you are looking at complete lack of drawback and challenge.

i see no reason for this entire thread. you can complain about what stats actually do or how unfair it is you can't be leet stats all the time but basic fact comes down to they made a system where you can change jobs at any time (which is vital to repairing gear or crafting while waiting but is helpful in getting mark rewards from leves etc etc, or just kinda fun to be able switch it up on the fly) and you can change your attributes to suit the job. the challenge is having a high phys level, planning for what you want to do, and adapting to it. and you want to take that away?

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 2:45am by TempLoop
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#161 Jan 09 2011 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Wrong.


There are 2 roads you can take in this system (actually 3)

#1. Prime allocation.

Allocate your stat points perfectly for the class you play the most. Forget the others, thats the only class you play. Any other class you play you will play with the pre determined best stats for that 1 class you enjoy.

#2. General allocation

You allocate your stats as an average. You allocate your points to best encompass all the classes you plan on playing. You use the stat point allocation skills to aid in swinging your stats toward the class you are currently playing and you minimize the number of reallocations to get yourself back to "baseline"

#3. You have no idea what you plan on doing. You have maxed stats you think are good for a class you are on, but you go too far (or too little) with those stats, and subsequently reallocating to another class takes more reallocations and wasted time.



This isn't to fuel debate, but I feel strongly about what I posted in the first page. I think that if anyone has any other versions of stat allocations that aren't here in this list of 3 I posted, they should be brought up.

This is what I was referring to in many of my posts about "evidence" and if my logic serves me correctly, there are no other ways to do stat allocation that fall outside the 3 that I listed.

If all builds fall into one of these 3 categories (as far as I can see from my point of view) then my logic stands that "general allocation" is the most "effective" stat allocation method for leveling more than 1 class.

I assume players are leveling more than 1 class, and as such I also made the assumption that less stat reallocations is a more effective use of time than the time taken to move such a massive amount of points from one "prime allocation" situation to another "prime allocation" situation. Ex: Thaum to Glad, just to level "faster"

Overall I can not say which is the best system for anyone, but in my situation where I am leveling many classes, waiting to level another class because my stats are not "optimally allocated" is a waste of my time. I would rather take a hit in stats than sit in town waiting for the reallocation timer.

Hope this clears up my thoughts.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 3:41am by DoctorMog
#162 Jan 09 2011 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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To the 37 GLD, you do realise SE nerfed the VIT to HP conversion, because tank dps was too high right? GLD was doing as much damage as DD. I dunno tell DDs to wait until you got threat maybe? If you planned on using spells on your tank you do know magic acc is important to have too right, as well as resistances, things PIE cover. You don't balance, you gimp yourself, plain and simple.

+HP, +MP, +Magic Damage, +Magic acc, +Attack, ect. are much better stats, than +INT,+ MND, +VIT, anyways. It was like that in FFXI too.

STATS are a baseline, that you build your classes on, that you build your gear on. It's not something you try and gain a means to an end with.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 8:13am by Spyrit178
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#163 Jan 09 2011 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
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TempLoop wrote:

i see no reason for this entire thread. you can complain about what stats actually do or how unfair it is you can't be leet stats all the time but basic fact comes down to they made a system where you can change jobs at any time (which is vital to repairing gear or crafting while waiting but is helpful in getting mark rewards from leves etc etc, or just kinda fun to be able switch it up on the fly) and you can change your attributes to suit the job. the challenge is having a high phys level, planning for what you want to do, and adapting to it. and you want to take that away?

You know what else is a challenge? Having your left leg tied up behind your back! The challenge is having a strong right leg to hop around with, planning for what you want to do, and adapting to to it. And people want to take that away? Everyone, go tie up your left legs, NOW! You have no idea what you're missing here!

Spyrit178 wrote:
To the 37 GLD, you do realise SE nerfed the VIT to HP conversion, because tank dps was too high right? GLD was doing as much damage as DD. I dunno tell DDs to wait until you got threat maybe? If you planned on using spells on your tank you do know magic acc is important to have too right, as well as resistances, things PIE cover. You don't balance, you gimp yourself, plain and simple.

Oh, so SE nerfed VIT because tanks were doing too much damage? That's news to me considering SE never said such a thing and VIT has nothing to do with damage output. Way to present utterly wild speculation as commonly accepted fact. It's like you're one of those pseudoscientists preaching about energy fields and psi.

Magic acc is almost useless for a tank. If you want to use offensive spells to build threat, you won't need to actually stick them to achieve that. You're better off leavig this job to the actual casters. Small amounts of PIE also won't let you resist debuffs from mobs above your level pretty much ever.

Quote:

STATS are a baseline, that you build your classes on, that you build your gear on. It's not something you try and gain a means to an end with.

What? I have no idea what you just said here.


Edited, Jan 9th 2011 9:04am by Omena
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#164 Jan 09 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Omena wrote:
TempLoop wrote:

i see no reason for this entire thread. you can complain about what stats actually do or how unfair it is you can't be leet stats all the time but basic fact comes down to they made a system where you can change jobs at any time (which is vital to repairing gear or crafting while waiting but is helpful in getting mark rewards from leves etc etc, or just kinda fun to be able switch it up on the fly) and you can change your attributes to suit the job. the challenge is having a high phys level, planning for what you want to do, and adapting to it. and you want to take that away?

You know what else is a challenge? Having your left leg tied up behind your back! The challenge is having a strong right leg to hop around with, planning for what you want to do, and adapting to to it. And people want to take that away? Everyone, go tie up your left legs, NOW! You have no idea what you're missing here!


so what you are saying is that you want easy mode? play wow. this game has already taken out too many usual mmo challenges. its on the brink of being gaiaonline

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 10:04am by TempLoop
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#165 Jan 09 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Default
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TempLoop wrote:

so what you are saying is that you want easy mode? play wow. this game has already taken out too many usual mmo challenges. its on the brink of being gaiaonline

No, I'm saying bad design doesn't add challenge, it adds annoyances. Besides, this game has no challenging content ATM. Those coblyns die just fine with me spamming the 1-key and every story/class quest so far has contained mobs that die in 3 hits max and obviously don't require a group. So much for challenge, huh?

If you think handicapping the players for no reason adds an interesting challenge, you're free to do it yourself in various ways. There is no need to annoy the rest of us.
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#166 Jan 09 2011 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Llester wrote:
...a whole bunch of misinformation about ffxi.


You can think whatever you want about stats in ffxi. I was in one of the top endgame shells on Carbuncle, had sam, thf, war, drg, rng, and brd to 75, and know all the damage calculation formulas as well as anyone. STR played an ENORMOUS role in most WS, even those NOT modified by it. For instance, a 75 thf has not ONE useful WS that was modified by STR (other than mercy stroke, but how many thfs had a mandau?), yet every thf knows that gear w/ added str will make a HUGE difference for your damage, just based on the fSTR tier that you can reach. Who cares about base damage? Anyone in ffxi who was using str to increase their base damage doesn't have a clue how the game works. Your comment about that is so insignificant, that's why I glossed over it. If you are honestly trying to make a comparison about ffxi and using the argument of STR not effecting base damage, I will reiterate the fact that you have no clue about how ffxi worked.

In general, stats were EXTREMELY important in that game. Why the heck do you think any moderately good player had different gear sets for for tp gain/WS/spells/etc? Certainly other attributes were important, such as your attack rating to get a higher pdif vs. the monster, or your macc/matt for spells. But to say base stats were so trivial is just a bold-faced lie.

Oh, and fyi, I don't still have the data, but I actually tested the effects of STR gear on WS on different classes. On average, +20 STR on a NON-str modified WS added roughly 10-20% damage to said WS. If a WS WAS modified by STR, the effect was exponential. So yes, it DID add several hundred damage to some WS. That's the reason that any good DD capped on STR gear before other gear for their WS, even if they weren't STR modified. ****, even rng knew that a STR build could be insanely OP, which is why after they were nerfed you saw people using the HQ fire staff (forgot the name) to maximize their WS damage.

Regardless, I'm not going to talk ffxi anymore because... well, I don't play that game anymore and really don't give 2 sh*ts about it.

Spyrit178 wrote:

To the 37 GLD, you do realise SE nerfed the VIT to HP conversion, because tank dps was too high right? GLD was doing as much damage as DD. I dunno tell DDs to wait until you got threat maybe? If you planned on using spells on your tank you do know magic acc is important to have too right, as well as resistances, things PIE cover. You don't balance, you gimp yourself, plain and simple.

+HP, +MP, +Magic Damage, +Magic acc, +Attack, ect. are much better stats, than +INT,+ MND, +VIT, anyways. It was like that in FFXI too.

STATS are a baseline, that you build your classes on, that you build your gear on. It's not something you try and gain a means to an end with.


Explain to me how VIT has ANY bearing on DPS. And what the heck are you talking about? I never said I had issues with threat, and I also never said I planned on using spells on my tank other than cure spells, to which macc has absolutely NO noticeable effect. Why would I waste my stamina on other spells?

Also, do you have ANY proof about your middle line (+HP, +MP, etc)? As far as I've noticed, going from about 80 str to 120 str has made an enormous difference in my overall damage. This isn't something I eyeballed, it's something I tested on the same doblyns I fought at the same level. I re-allocated to a much higher str build, and immediately noticed my attacks doing a fair amount more damage, my WS being more powerful, and my blocks mitigating a little bit more damage. Certainly +hp/+mp etc stats are important for gear, mainly because VIT/MND on gear DOES NOT increase your HP/MP pool. That's just common sense. Also, fyi, the trait books that convert +5/-5, +10/-10 do not add to your base HP/MP pool either.

As a tank, capping VIT is essential. They may have nerfed the VIT -> HP a bit, but it still gives a decent amount. At 100 VIT I cap out at just over 1600 HP, at 126 (current cap for me) I hit just under 1800. I'd say that's pretty significant. So please, before you go spewing your ideas about what you THINK are "much better stats", post some actual proof to that. I'm not going to say definitively that base stats are more important because I really can't back that up, but from what I've seen personally, they are certainly important.

As to your last sentence, stats are a way to maximize your potential. I shouldn't be forced to play a mediocre mage simply because it isn't my main job. That is what I am forced to do currently.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 12:08pm by BartelX
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#167 Jan 09 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
Wrong.


There are 2 roads you can take in this system (actually 3)

#1. Prime allocation.

Allocate your stat points perfectly for the class you play the most. Forget the others, thats the only class you play. Any other class you play you will play with the pre determined best stats for that 1 class you enjoy.

#2. General allocation

You allocate your stats as an average. You allocate your points to best encompass all the classes you plan on playing. You use the stat point allocation skills to aid in swinging your stats toward the class you are currently playing and you minimize the number of reallocations to get yourself back to "baseline"

#3. You have no idea what you plan on doing. You have maxed stats you think are good for a class you are on, but you go too far (or too little) with those stats, and subsequently reallocating to another class takes more reallocations and wasted time.



This isn't to fuel debate, but I feel strongly about what I posted in the first page. I think that if anyone has any other versions of stat allocations that aren't here in this list of 3 I posted, they should be brought up.

This is what I was referring to in many of my posts about "evidence" and if my logic serves me correctly, there are no other ways to do stat allocation that fall outside the 3 that I listed.

If all builds fall into one of these 3 categories (as far as I can see from my point of view) then my logic stands that "general allocation" is the most "effective" stat allocation method for leveling more than 1 class.

I assume players are leveling more than 1 class, and as such I also made the assumption that less stat reallocations is a more effective use of time than the time taken to move such a massive amount of points from one "prime allocation" situation to another "prime allocation" situation. Ex: Thaum to Glad, just to level "faster"

Overall I can not say which is the best system for anyone, but in my situation where I am leveling many classes, waiting to level another class because my stats are not "optimally allocated" is a waste of my time. I would rather take a hit in stats than sit in town waiting for the reallocation timer.

Hope this clears up my thoughts.



I applaud the fact that you posted this without flaming more people and calling them morons. However, do you not see how your own "theories" basically encourage people to be mediocre? Hey, maybe that's fine for you. For me, that's not really what I want. I want to be able to play gladiator AND conjurer the best I can. This system does not allow me to do that. It forces me to either be extreme for 1 class and ignore others or to balance my stats and play a bunch of mediocre classes (I'm not arguing with your 2 paths there, they are dead on).

I just fail to see why I should be limited like this. SE said we are supposed to be able to play any class we want, whenever we want, and have it be fully customizable. That is not how it works currently. I can play any class, but I am limited in my customization, and should I choose to play a DoW and a DoM concurrently, I will be penalized by a system that does not let me place my stats the way I want to. It's a flawed system in my opinion, you can disagree and that's fine. It certainly doesn't validate your opinion over anyone elses, and I think that's the reason a lot of people got fed up with you. Just because you have an r50 class and make videos on stuff does not make you the authority on what is right and how things should be done in game. It's made you come off as an arrogant jackass to me. I'm not trying to start a fight here, I'm just giving you my honest opinion (which, btw, is one of the things that forums ARE for... opinions).
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#168 Jan 09 2011 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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TempLoop wrote:
i see no reason for this entire thread. you can complain about what stats actually do or how unfair it is you can't be leet stats all the time but basic fact comes down to they made a system where you can change jobs at any time (which is vital to repairing gear or crafting while waiting but is helpful in getting mark rewards from leves etc etc, or just kinda fun to be able switch it up on the fly) and you can change your attributes to suit the job. the challenge is having a high phys level, planning for what you want to do, and adapting to it. and you want to take that away?


Emphasis added is mine.

This is an MMO. In an MMO, there is only ever so much "planning" you can do on any particular front. Remember the hypothetical story I quoted earlier? I'll post it again...

I wrote:
I've just specced for CON because my LS needs a good healer when they suddenly change plans and the party falls apart. Minutes later, another LS mate needs a piece of armor built and I'm the highest armorer in the LS. However, my stats for armorer are completely screwed up because I'm specced to be a conjurer.

In order to swing my stats back, I have to sit there and wait a half hour, but since my LS mate would like me to HQ the item, I'd need to swing more than just 10% of my stats back if I want to be an effective enough armorer to have a good chance of HQing.

After swinging 10% and trying it anyway (and failing to HQ it), a friend logs on and wants to go grinding, except that I'm now no longer specced to be a good conjurer so I need to wait at least another half hour again


What if you have 5 friends who play the game and you're leveling a different class alongside each of them because they have widely varying schedules? I've done this in past MMOs with multiple characters, but I don't want to pay for additional characters, especially when the armory system was intended to negate the NEED for multiple characters.

What if you're leveling a craft as well (which most people are) and a gathering skill?

There are two ways out of this discussion:

1. Admit that the stat point system is horrendously inconvenient for any player who has in-game obligations to perform as different classes that they've leveled (this will get worse when we deal with endgame challenges where having a suboptimal build for your class can and WILL prevent you from succeeding).

2. Admit that stats don't do enough to warrant being concerned about them, which raises the question of why they're even in the game to start with.

You can't "plan" in an MMO. You just can't. You can say "I'm going to level conjurer to 50 without any interruptions" but unless you want to completely forsake any form of social interaction, you're going to get sidetracked into doing other things with other players, and nine times out of ten, that includes playing a different class.

Again, the armory system is a fantastic idea, but the stat point system basically undoes most of the freedom it was intended to grant by only allowing you to play a horribly gimped version of a class, despite the fact that you EARNED the ranks for that class. Reallocating is a bandaid on a bullet wound that just doesn't work in a game where you should be playing with other players at any given time and expectations can likewise change at any given time.

Beyond that, spending 6 hours to completely retool your class into an ideal setup is a terrible game mechanic.
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#169 Jan 09 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
This isn't to fuel debate, but I feel strongly about what I posted in the first page. I think that if anyone has any other versions of stat allocations that aren't here in this list of 3 I posted, they should be brought up.

This is what I was referring to in many of my posts about "evidence" and if my logic serves me correctly, there are no other ways to do stat allocation that fall outside the 3 that I listed.

If all builds fall into one of these 3 categories (as far as I can see from my point of view) then my logic stands that "general allocation" is the most "effective" stat allocation method for leveling more than 1 class.

I assume players are leveling more than 1 class, and as such I also made the assumption that less stat reallocations is a more effective use of time than the time taken to move such a massive amount of points from one "prime allocation" situation to another "prime allocation" situation. Ex: Thaum to Glad, just to level "faster"

Overall I can not say which is the best system for anyone, but in my situation where I am leveling many classes, waiting to level another class because my stats are not "optimally allocated" is a waste of my time. I would rather take a hit in stats than sit in town waiting for the reallocation timer.

Hope this clears up my thoughts.


Nothing wrong with fueling a little debate. :)

I agree that those three scenarios are basically it, but that's not my primary concern for the stat allocation system.

My issue with it is that, in an MMO where you're going to spend most of your time interacting with other players, leveling different classes with different friends and being called upon by your LS to perform different roles, the stat system and it's time-prohibitive reallocation mechanic are exactly what players DON'T need to be dealing with.

If we took the time to level a class, why should we be forced to play as a gimped version of that class, especially when we never know when we'll need to play as that class?

The whole point of the armory system was to grant freedom to the players, right? Lose a healer? The DD can become the healer! Lose a tank? The healer can become the tank! (not mid-fight, obviously). The armory system aimed to solve one of the biggest problems in MMO history and FFXIV would be all the better for it if it TRULY did just that.

So like we agreed: every class should have its own stat configuration. Then, you can do WHATEVER you want with each class while not gimping other classes as a result. You can play as a debuffing lancer, the healing tank, or the melee mage (kinda).

I think another issue here is that we've never dealt with mobs that are hard enough that a sub-optimal build is truly crippling. Like we've established, grinding coblyns is still the most efficient means to level. We don't have any incredibly dangerous dungeons where a party needs to all be working at peak efficiency to conquer. I think once we start to see REAL challenges like that (and I hope we do soon), we'll see even more of the flaws of the stat point system.
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#170 Jan 09 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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#171 Jan 09 2011 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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I...don't think so?

I don't see any rage going on. Maybe earlier, but that's long over with.
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#172 Jan 09 2011 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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You have no idea what a baseline stat is? The stats you begin with without gear or anything else. And yes the VIT HP conversion was nerfed, the second patch, were you even there for it? Gladiators were doing too much damage, tank shouldn't do as much damage as a DD ever. Keep in mind the first 3 patches were slated for class balance, so that aspect isn't even finished yet.

The trouble with this game isn't the system, it's players who cannot comprehend the game. Now it does need some fixes and tweaks here and there, I don't dispute that. I wondered what would happened if SE gave out every detail explaining the game, how many feel like they screwed up.

Now if you plan on playing more than 1 class for your entire FFXIV game time, you're going to want to keep your stats balanced, just common sense.
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#173 Jan 09 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
You have no idea what a baseline stat is? The stats you begin with without gear or anything else. And yes the VIT HP conversion was nerfed, the second patch, were you even there for it? Gladiators were doing too much damage, tank shouldn't do as much damage as a DD ever. Keep in mind the first 3 patches were slated for class balance, so that aspect isn't even finished yet.

The trouble with this game isn't the system, it's players who cannot comprehend the game. Now it does need some fixes and tweaks here and there, I don't dispute that. I wondered what would happened if SE gave out every detail explaining the game, how many feel like they screwed up.

Now if you plan on playing more than 1 class for your entire FFXIV game time, you're going to want to keep your stats balanced, just common sense.


You still have not explained how VIT has ANY effect on the amount of damage you do. The reason for that is because it DOES NOT have any effect on your damage output. And yes, as I even pointed out in my post, I realize they nerfed VIT -> HP:

BartelX wrote:
They may have nerfed the VIT -> HP a bit, but it still gives a decent amount.


It might have been nerfed somewhat, but it is still important and still does have a significant impact on your HP pool. I also love how you are commenting on gladiators doing too much damage when you are r18 yourself. I can only assume what you are talking about is conjecture and here-say based on the fact that you haven't even experienced it yourself. Perhaps you've talked to others about it, but that is hardly more than opinion. Oh also, just to completely destroy your argument about tanks not being meant to deal damage like a DD... tell that to my prot pally in WoW that would be top 5ish DD in almost any raid we did, and would ALWAYS be top 1-2 in heroics. The idea of a DD tank is really what drew me to glad in this game, so please don't try and tell me what I'm supposed to be able to do and not do.

The trouble with this game in YOUR OPINION is that people cannot comprehend the game. I comprehend it just fine. I realize that if I want to play more than 1 class I have to become less than optimal for both with the current system, or else just focus on 1 and completely ignore the rest. You still haven't explained WHY players should have to play less than optimal in this system. Why am I penalized for wanting to play both a tank class and a mage class? Why is it that if I try to keep my stats balanced for both classes, I end up with mediocre builds for both? Why must I spend my time re-allocating all the time just so that I can play each class?

The trouble with this game IN MY OPINION is that people refuse to see a poor game mechanic for what it is. It limits the customization of a game that absolutely does not need it. There is no harm in allowing different builds for different classes. All that does is allow players to actually play the class they want at its full potential. I really don't understand why people are supportive of a system that limits your freedom in a game...

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 4:58pm by BartelX
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#174 Jan 09 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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TempLoop wrote:
so what you are saying is that you want easy mode? play wow. this game has already taken out too many usual mmo challenges. its on the brink of being gaiaonline


Ahh yes... I wondered who would be the first poster to post the moronic meme "LOL GO PLAY WOW DIS NOT EZMOAD!"

Yes, because horribly designed systems are truly indicative of "difficulty".

BartelX wrote:
The trouble with this game IN MY OPINION is that people refuse to see a poor game mechanic for what it is. It limits the customization of a game that absolutely does not need it. There is no harm in allowing different builds for different classes. All that does is allow players to actually play the class they want at its full potential. I really don't understand why people are supportive of a system that limits your freedom in a game...


Because then that would mean that the system inherently made *sense* and most of the supporters are still stuck with the "battered wife" syndrome from FFXI.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 5:06pm by StrijderVechter
#175 Jan 09 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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They nerfed VIT, forcing you to choose between threat (STR) and Health (VIT). Has nothing to do with VIT increasing damage do you understand now. You want to DD, then be a DD, you want to be a tank, you have to prioritize survivalbilty, then threat, not the other way around. There's nothing wrong with the system, other than some balancing that has yet to be done.

For a tank, why didn't you put PIE as a priority? You do realize that's what effects resistances right? That's where balance comes into play. So now you're just a mana sink.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 5:08pm by Spyrit178
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#176 Jan 09 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
They nerfed VIT, forcing you to choose between threat (STR) and Health (VIT). Has nothing to do with VIT increasing damage do you understand now.


No, you're just trying to draw a foolish conclusion all on your own. I fail to see how you can logically conclude that reducing the amount of health gained from VIT "forces" you to focus on STR.

"hay guyz SE nerfed hp gain so I got to go get some str now okthxbai!!!11!!"

All you're doing is posting nonsense and trying to defend it.
#177 Jan 09 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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God are you people really that ignorant? If you have to put more into VIT you will have less to put into STR GET IT!
You'll have to pick survival over threat. Go back to WoW seriously. Tired of drawing pictures, for the intellectually challenged.


Edited, Jan 9th 2011 5:12pm by Spyrit178
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#178 Jan 09 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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You don't get stat points for ranking up a class. You don't deserve and you are not entitled to having those stats optimized for whatever class you are playing at any given moment. You get stats for gaining physical levels that are not tied in any way to your class of the day. IF you want those stats to be optimized for a class you have to set them that way. IF you decide to switch classes you have the option to change your stats. It just takes time. A time sink.... in an mmo... who would have seen that coming.
#179 Jan 09 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Spyrit178 wrote:
They nerfed VIT, forcing you to choose between threat (STR) and Health (VIT). Has nothing to do with VIT increasing damage do you understand now. You want to DD, then be a DD, you want to be a tank, you have to prioritize survivalbilty, then threat, not the other way around. There's nothing wrong with the system, other than some balancing that has yet to be done.

For a tank, why didn't you put PIE as a priority? You do realize that's what effects resistances right? That's where balance comes into play. So now you're just a mana sink.


Um, pre-nerf I focused on VIT for the HP. Post-nerf I focus on VIT for the HP. Your point is completely assinine.

And lol, if you are a glad and are honestly focusing ANY points on PIE, I feel really sorry for you. First off, MND is FAR more important for the magic defense/MP increase. Second, unless you have a PIE rating of over 100, you will see next to NO improvements in your resist rate. I know this because I play with a CON who has capped PIE for his level (130) and he resists just about as often as I do on anything that IS resistable. Not to mention, I'd rather take less damage from a spell ALL THE TIME than hope to get lucky with a slightly improved resist rate.

I also like how you conveniently leave INT out of the discussion, which is extremely important for any CON that solos or isn't just a cure-bot mage. What exactly am I going to do with INT on my glad?

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 5:25pm by BartelX
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#180 Jan 09 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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doppimus wrote:
You don't get stat points for ranking up a class. You don't deserve and you are not entitled to having those stats optimized for whatever class you are playing at any given moment. You get stats for gaining physical levels that are not tied in any way to your class of the day. IF you want those stats to be optimized for a class you have to set them that way. IF you decide to switch classes you have the option to change your stats. It just takes time. A time sink.... in an mmo... who would have seen that coming.


Yet you spent the time sink leveling those classes. YOU leveled them, so why don't you get to use them effectively?

Like I've explained many times, the "time sink" for selecting stats ruins your ability to use the class you want when you want, and considering that you DON'T know which class you're going to be using at any given time, this IS a huge hinderance to your ability to play and enjoy the game.

Look at my earlier example of being asked to heal, then being asked to make armor, then being asked to do something else.

If you've leveled these classes, you still can't effectively use them. HOW does that make any sense when the whole POINT of the armory system was to grant players the freedom to change on the fly as needed?
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#181 Jan 09 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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If you plan on doing more than one class, balance your stats, all these idle unnecessary arguements are frivolous attempts to troll. This is how the system is done currently, play it the way it was ment to. Class balance still needs to be addressed. Now you will not loose much but having things balanced, but you will have some difficulty (as you're currently experincing, by keeping them unbalanced)

If you have only 1 class, you hit surplus, if you don't balance your stats, classes suffer with the inadequecies,(like you are currently experincing) if you want more room for tweaking sit on your stats, dont add any for a couple levels.

Endgame doesn't even exist and you are trying to min/max on grinding. I've had NO problems with balanced stats on ANY of my classes, none. I have found 0 reason to tweak them at this point in the grind.

The balancing of classes is still going on, as well as endgame on it's way, as well as new gear, so on and so forth.

Everyone keeps pointing out they are gimped if they balance, if you strip down to your skivies thats what your stats are at, at the base of it all, each weapon or tool equipped builds the number up, every piece of stat gear also builds that number up, food builds that number up, abilities, buffs, traits builds that number up.

You take any class, in any game, and look at their stats at level 20,30, 40 and so on, with no gear or any other buffs. It isn't much, nor does it have that huge of an impact. Much too much of playing at endgame level at a game with no endgame is plain silly. You have a problem with the damage you do as a conj, eat some chocolate, find gear with magic damage, there are plenty of ways to get your damage up. And what happens when they do add buffing classes?

When stats do count, when there is an endgame, I am quite sure SE will balance point allotment to it. For now you are grinding, balance is for the grind. Maybe they will add a quest to unlock all our points whose to say, we gotta wait see.


Edited, Jan 9th 2011 7:17pm by Spyrit178
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#182 Jan 09 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm speechless.
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#183 Jan 09 2011 at 6:49 PM Rating: Good
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Spyrit178 wrote:
If you plan on doing more than one class, balance your stats, all these idle unnecessary arguements are frivolous attempts to troll. This is how the system is done currently, play it the way it was ment to. Class balance still needs to be addressed. Now you will not loose much but having things balanced, but you will have some difficulty (as you're currently experincing, by keeping them unbalanced)

If you have only 1 class, you hit surplus, if you don't balance your stats, classes suffer with the inadequecies,(like you are currently experincing) if you want more room for tweaking sit on your stats, dont add any for a couple levels.

Endgame doesn't even exist and you are trying to min/max on grinding. I've had NO problems with balanced stats on ANY of my classes, none. I have found 0 reason to tweak them at this point in the grind.

The balancing of classes is still going on, as well as endgame on it's way, as well as new gear, so on and so forth.

Everyone keeps pointing out they are gimped if they balance, if you strip down to your skivies thats what your stats are at, at the base of it all, each weapon or tool equipped builds the number up, every piece of stat gear also builds that number up, food builds that number up, abilities, buffs, traits builds that number up.

You take any class, in any game, and look at their stats at level 20,30, 40 and so on, with no gear or any other buffs. It isn't much, nor does it have that huge of an impact. Much too much of playing at endgame level at a game with no endgame is plain silly. You have a problem with the damage you do as a conj, eat some chocolate, find gear with magic damage, there are plenty of ways to get your damage up. And what happens when they do add buffing classes?

When stats do count, when there is an endgame, I am quite sure SE will balance point allotment to it. For now you are grinding, balance is for the grind. Maybe they will add a quest to unlock all our points whose to say, we gotta wait see.


I appreciate your well thought out feelings on this, I just happen to completely disagree with you. Whereas you are content with things the way they are, I look at it as a game mechanic that just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry, but there are a LOT of things in this game that just aren't quite right. ****, the developer's themselves ADMIT that the game is flawed to the point that it is still FREE, and have given no timeline on when it will be pay-to-play as of yet.

To me, this is just one of those flaws. And rather than sit back and say, "Hey, everything's fine! This is just the way it's meant to be!", I'm going to ask for something better. Something that allows me to be the best that I can, because that's what I want in a game. It might seem just like min/maxing to you, but it's something that I enjoy. I enjoy being the best and pushing myself as far as I possibly can, and right now this game does not allow me to do that, or if I do it hinders my ability to play other classes as efficiently.

Lastly, instead of just saying "When stats do count, when there is an endgame, I am quite sure SE will balance point allotment to it.", I'd rather address the issue now, and get it taken care of. If everyone just takes your approach of "wait and see", nothing in this game will ever get fixed. I'm not demanding a change immediately. I'm not some impatient, teenage kid who needs everything immediately. I just want it brought to their attention so that they can address the issue. I personally feel it would only be a positive change, and I really have a hard time understanding how anyone could think any different.

Edited, Jan 9th 2011 7:54pm by BartelX
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#184 Jan 09 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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BartelX wrote:
I appreciate your well thought out feelings on this, I just happen to completely disagree with you. Whereas you are content with things the way they are, I look at it as a game mechanic that just doesn't make sense. I'm sorry, but there are a LOT of things in this game that just aren't quite right. ****, the developer's themselves ADMIT that the game is flawed to the point that it is still FREE, and have given no timeline on when it will be pay-to-play as of yet.

To me, this is just one of those flaws. And rather than sit back and say, "Hey, everything's fine! This is just the way it's meant to be!", I'm going to ask for something better. Something that allows me to be the best that I can, because that's what I want in a game. It might seem just like min/maxing to you, but it's something that I enjoy. I enjoy being the best and pushing myself as far as I possibly can, and right now this game does not allow me to do that, or if I do it hinders my ability to play other classes as efficiently.

Lastly, instead of just saying "When stats do count, when there is an endgame, I am quite sure SE will balance point allotment to it.", I'd rather address the issue now, and get it taken care of. If everyone just takes your approach of "wait and see", nothing in this game will ever get fixed. I'm not demanding a change immediately. I'm not some impatient, teenage kid who needs everything immediately. I just want it brought to their attention so that they can address the issue. I personally feel it would only be a positive change, and I really have a hard time understanding how anyone could think any different.


Here's another perspective on the issue...

Imagine you have two characters on the same account: one is a level 50 gladiator and one is a level 50 conjurer (assume both are also max physical level). Both characters have their stats setup to be the very best they can at their respective classes.

What is the difference between having 2 characters, each of max rank in two classes, and one character of max rank in the same two classes?

You've spent the SAME amount of time leveling, you've paid for two sets of gear (assuming you get a caster set for the single character with glad/con leveled). You have both classes on command at any time (it's not that hard to travel/teleport to a destination, really).

The only differences between the two is that, in the case of the two characters, you will have paid SE an extra $3 per month for having a 2nd character on your account and the two characters will always be DRAMATICALLY SUPERIOR to a single character who has both classes leveled.

Conclusion: the armory system fails. It fails hard because the stat system completely nullifies the freedom you are otherwise provided by the armory system and you're STILL better off leveling two separate characters than you are leveling contrary classes on the same character.
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#185 Jan 09 2011 at 11:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: banghead
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#186 Jan 09 2011 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Smiley: banghead


Most reasonable post in this thread.
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#187 Jan 09 2011 at 11:15 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

When stats do count, when there is an endgame, I am quite sure SE will balance point allotment to it. For now you are grinding, balance is for the grind. Maybe they will add a quest to unlock all our points whose to say, we gotta wait see.


I can appreciate the optimism, however I think in cases like this, unless there is any official indication that there will be a change, we should judge the system on how it is now.

I would much rather people start thinking about ways to improve the system now, rather than wait assuming that SE knows the current system has a huge flaw and therefore has a plan for it.


Personally, I'd rather just have a full reset every 6 hours, rather than doing 6+ small ones during the day.
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#188 Jan 09 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Smiley: banghead


Yeah, starting to feel this way, myself...
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#189 Jan 10 2011 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:

I wrote:
I've just specced for CON because my LS needs a good healer when they suddenly change plans and the party falls apart. Minutes later, another LS mate needs a piece of armor built and I'm the highest armorer in the LS. However, my stats for armorer are completely screwed up because I'm specced to be a conjurer.

In order to swing my stats back, I have to sit there and wait a half hour, but since my LS mate would like me to HQ the item, I'd need to swing more than just 10% of my stats back if I want to be an effective enough armorer to have a good chance of HQing.

After swinging 10% and trying it anyway (and failing to HQ it), a friend logs on and wants to go grinding, except that I'm now no longer specced to be a good conjurer so I need to wait at least another half hour again


What if you have 5 friends who play the game and you're leveling a different class alongside each of them because they have widely varying schedules? I've done this in past MMOs with multiple characters, but I don't want to pay for additional characters, especially when the armory system was intended to negate the NEED for multiple characters.

What if you're leveling a craft as well (which most people are) and a gathering skill?

There are two ways out of this discussion:

1. Admit that the stat point system is horrendously inconvenient for any player who has in-game obligations to perform as different classes that they've leveled (this will get worse when we deal with endgame challenges where having a suboptimal build for your class can and WILL prevent you from succeeding).

2. Admit that stats don't do enough to warrant being concerned about them, which raises the question of why they're even in the game to start with.

You can't "plan" in an MMO. You just can't. You can say "I'm going to level conjurer to 50 without any interruptions" but unless you want to completely forsake any form of social interaction, you're going to get sidetracked into doing other things with other players, and nine times out of ten, that includes playing a different class.

Again, the armory system is a fantastic idea, but the stat point system basically undoes most of the freedom it was intended to grant by only allowing you to play a horribly gimped version of a class, despite the fact that you EARNED the ranks for that class. Reallocating is a bandaid on a bullet wound that just doesn't work in a game where you should be playing with other players at any given time and expectations can likewise change at any given time.

Beyond that, spending 6 hours to completely retool your class into an ideal setup is a terrible game mechanic.


so you are complaining that you all of a sudden want to be ideal setup for something completely different on the fly just so you can hq something on command. hq is suppose to be something special not something you can just suddenly choose to do. look, if you are going to do so many multiple things, than stop specializing your stats; even them out and reassign once in a while when you need to specialize stats and use proper gear/traits. being able to change your stats at will undermines anyone that does specialize in it.
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#190 Jan 10 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
so you are complaining that you all of a sudden want to be ideal setup for something completely different on the fly just so you can hq something on command. hq is suppose to be something special not something you can just suddenly choose to do. look, if you are going to do so many multiple things, than stop specializing your stats; even them out and reassign once in a while when you need to specialize stats and use proper gear/traits. being able to change your stats at will undermines anyone that does specialize in it.


Read the thread.
#191 Jan 10 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
[quote=QuickShadoww]Shamans and Paladins in WoW were always able to do end games in all 3 roles (enhance, elemental and resto / ret, tank and holy) since WoW came out. It was just harder to perform well and to get the appropriate gear (an enhance shammy used to be top dps in vanilla wow raids like BWL and AQ40). Flexibility = harder to be optimal in every role. Flexibility /= easy mode faceroll wins.
Incorrect.

Not only are you brown nosing Doctor"I'mNeverWrongYou'reJustTooStupidTooSeeMyBrilliance"Mog, but you're trying to put out false information about WoW. Hint: If you were "top DPS" in the vanilla raids as a hybrid, your other players frankly were utterly terrible. You may as well be trying to lie and say "My 2004 RDM did more damage than any RNG or BLM back then!"

Fact: Hybrids in WoW weren't actually viable damage dealers until Wrath of the Lich King. Enhancement/Elemental Shamans were given just enough raid buffs to make those two spots viable on the buffs alone (plus blood lust/heroism), and Shadow Priests were given low DPS and high mana regen for the groups they were in (Ret Paladins were just... no). It wasn't until they abandoned that moronic mindset in the 2nd expansion that all hybrids had all of their roles almost equal to the 'pure' classes.


Yeah right. I got High warlord on my rogue. I was in second best horde guild on my server. When BWL came out, we cleared it. When AQ40 came out, we cleared it. Guess what we had an elemental shaman and an enhancement shaman that were beast dps. They would be 1st dps depending on the fights. Why? Because they had the CORRECT gear and they knew their pve rotation.

Don't think because you don't have experienced something yourself it isn't true. I played WoW a lot during Vanilla and I know what I'm talking about. I was friend of the best alliance guild on the server and they had a nasty ret paladin too.

And for the brown nosing... agreeing with someone makes u a brown nose?

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 10:16am by QuickShadoww
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#192 Jan 10 2011 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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TempLoop wrote:
so you are complaining that you all of a sudden want to be ideal setup for something completely different on the fly just so you can hq something on command. hq is suppose to be something special not something you can just suddenly choose to do. look, if you are going to do so many multiple things, than stop specializing your stats; even them out and reassign once in a while when you need to specialize stats and use proper gear/traits. being able to change your stats at will undermines anyone that does specialize in it.


I don't specialize my stats: they're distributed completely evenly.

But here's a crazy notion: what would be so wrong with every player being able to have the ideal class if they wanted to?

Frequently heard replies to the aforementioned question:

R: "But then everyone would be cookie cutters!!!"
A: That's where gear, traits and abilities on the action bar come into play. Right now, most players are cookie cutters anyway as I assume most players have their stats distributed completely evenly like I do.

R: "That would be COMPLETELY OVERPOWERED!!!"
A: Overpowered how? Because you might grind coblyns a bit faster? Even if you were in a situation where you'd actually be faced with a challenge, you could always have two separate ideal characters that you can swap from if need be, and last I checked, the armory system was supposed to prevent the need for that kind of thing (since we have to PAY for additional character slots, I'm assuming additional characters are intended for playing across multiple servers, not for bypassing the armory system and the freedom it was supposed to grant).

What exactly are people so afraid of, here? People seem to feel that the playerbase needs to be "punished" for choosing to level multiple classes in a game that encourages you to level multiple classes. If SE's goal was to allow one character to do all jobs, they've failed because you're still infinitely better off leveling multiple characters.
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#193 Jan 10 2011 at 10:11 AM Rating: Default
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Ugh, nonsense continues in this thread.

Quote:
If SE's goal was to allow one character to do all jobs, they've failed because you're still infinitely better off leveling multiple characters.


How does that help when you're inside an instance with no way to take your alt there? How does that help when you have a time limit of 30 minutes and need to swap classes within 10 seconds?

If they don't develop content like this then they have failed. But I don't think they are that stupid.
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SE:
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We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#194 Jan 10 2011 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRealDestian wrote:

But here's a crazy notion: what would be so wrong with every player being able to have the ideal class if they wanted to?


because it would make me feel as if there were no point to that class. i have most of my points alotted to magical class and vitality because i do mage classes and i mine. being able to equip gear doesn't really have any special meaning to it. a person with phys level 50 and a pug 50 also has a r25 thm so decides that he will rank thm will have a huge advantage over me if there are no reprucssions and im sure he can afford better gear than me but if i have been focusing on mage classes for a long time, i might have an advantage over some guy that just thought it would be fun to randomly be a mage for a day.
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#195 Jan 10 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:
But here's a crazy notion: what would be so wrong with every player being able to have the ideal class if they wanted to?

Then there would be no point to classes, and everyone would end up being the Squire class from FFT.
#196 Jan 10 2011 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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TempLoop wrote:
because it would make me feel as if there were no point to that class. i have most of my points alotted to magical class and vitality because i do mage classes and i mine. being able to equip gear doesn't really have any special meaning to it. a person with phys level 50 and a pug 50 also has a r25 thm so decides that he will rank thm will have a huge advantage over me if there are no reprucssions and im sure he can afford better gear than me but if i have been focusing on mage classes for a long time, i might have an advantage over some guy that just thought it would be fun to randomly be a mage for a day.


...

So you're saying that a person who worked to level a mage class should have that effort invalidated because they also leveled a warrior class and that would make you feel bad about choosing to only level a mage class.

SoumaKyou wrote:
Then there would be no point to classes, and everyone would end up being the Squire class from FFT.


Classes define the weapon you'll be using, the effectiveness of stats for the class, the class-specific skills and traits and the type of gear that you will get the most value from.

Beyond that, SE has done much to blur the lines between classes. We can use any gear we want (even suboptimal gear), we can use any stats we want (depending upon how we want to shift the effectiveness of the class) and we can use any SKILLS we want from any other class that don't require a specific weapon to use.

All I'm suggesting is that each class have its own stat sheet (and saved action bar) so we can mix, match and experiment without needing to worry about A) gimping the class we play most and B) enduring up to a 6 hour reallocation period when most people only have a few hours to play the game every night.
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#197 Jan 10 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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TheRealDestian wrote:

All I'm suggesting is that each class have its own stat sheet (and saved action bar) so we can mix, match and experiment without needing to worry about A) gimping the class we play most and B) enduring up to a 6 hour reallocation period when most people only have a few hours to play the game every night.


how do you experiment when the class has its own stat sheet?
maybe i missed something, but you are all talking about ridding the point of physical level because point allotment doesn't suit your needs (btw i anima cost doesn't suit me, i vote we get rid of that); which is essentially the backbone to the armory system and ff without the armory system is what?
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#198 Jan 10 2011 at 5:39 PM Rating: Good
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TempLoop wrote:
how do you experiment when the class has its own stat sheet?


A valid question...

When I say "experiment", I mean that you'd be able to mess around with each class as you so desired with the same number of stat points as your physical level allows to allocate for each class instead of just having one set of points that you need to make due with across all classes.

This would give you the freedom to experiment with some classes while not gimping every class, meaning that you'll be so much more likely to experiment because you can ALWAYS have your "main" as a fallback if you need to play with other players.

With the cross-class skill system, I'm sure there are some potent hybrid classes waiting to be found, and with the ability to have a different stat point configuration for EACH class, we give players the freedom to experiment as they see fit without having to worry about hours of respeccing for their main class later.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 6:40pm by TheRealDestian
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