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This game will fail.Follow

#1 Jan 07 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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This game will fail for one major reason:

The forum community.

The forum community is far too engrossed in putting everything down that they don't understand, don't like, or simply because others already doing it. People that like a system on these forums are promptly defaulted by the players who troll the forums. Anyone who stands up is Karma camped until their voice is drown by the angry people who have been hurt by the game. This leaves very little room for the supporters of the game to put a voice in edgewise.

The new player.

The new player joins the game, not knowing what to expect in FFXIV. So, they seek out information on where to start. The player rolls along to the forum and all they can see is opinions of why things suck. Why the SP system is "broken" why stat point allocation is "broken" and all of their half cocked answers on fixing the systems. None of which were put into the appropriate feedback forum. There are almost no posts on the front page of questions and helpful answers, there are no useful guides without posts on why someone thinks something is broken, and there are no people that want to help anymore because they know it will just become a disagreement thread.

The solution:

People need to start sending their feedback to SE, it is located here:
http://support.na.square-enix.com/about.php?la=1&id=902

People need to stop Karma camping people with a positive opinion of things.

Forum admins need to start looking at these things and warning players that are out of line. Some threads on here have become ridiculous.

And lastly, if you don't like the game, stop playing. Take a break, and stop ruining it for the people that DO enjoy it.

If you want to see the game get fixed, start submitting your suggestions to SE directly instead of making things look like a ******** to the new players who visit the forums.



That's my rant, I understand already that it will become sub-defaulted immediately again proving my point. But this is what needs to happen for the game to succeed. They can fix the game all they want, but as long as the forums continue to be a cesspool of foul opinions and broken answers, this game will fail.



Edited, Jan 7th 2011 11:20pm by Osarion Lock Thread: Flamefest
#2 Jan 07 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Decent
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"I'm right, and I'm tired of people who disagree with me. The fact that I will be sub-defaulted just proves I'm right."

Yeah, that's a productive post...
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#3 Jan 07 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not going to argue with you, but you just proved my point.
#4 Jan 07 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you think you're being unfairly karma camped on posts that don't warrant it, report it to an admin and they will usually look into it.

Note that if you're taking a strong opinion in a topic that has strong opinions on both sides, karma camping is likely to occur. It's not the way the system is -supposed to- work, but it's usually the way it ends up working.

While I agree that your post brings up valid points, the sad truth is that most of the people on the forums are people who WANT to play the game but CAN'T, and they are using the forum as an outlet to express their frustration about this fact. Most of the people who are enjoying the game in spite of its many flaws are playing the game instead.

It's also true that there are far more people who want to play the game and can't because of their feelings than there are actually enjoying it. While I don't disagree that many of the critical posts have little constructive value to them, there are also many critical posts that -are- constructive and well thought out.

At this point, the state of the game is "in repair" and so it does stand to reason that that's the perfect target for players who are unhappy (most of them) to voice concern about what they think should be repaired, and how.

I applaud the intent of your post, but I think the thread title is unnecessarily inflammatory, and will likely lead to this thread derailing quickly.
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#5 Jan 07 2011 at 4:35 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
I'm not going to argue with you, but you just proved my point.


...Your point being that you're right because people disagree with you?

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#6 Jan 07 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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This wasn't necessary. Your posts in the thread you are upset over were rated down because you took a generally condescending tone to everyone who had reasonable suggestions, and you didn't even have facts (read: math) to back up your claims. I don't have anything against you personally, but you seem to have done just as much "Karma Camping" as anyone else in that thread.

I thought it was a pretty healthy debate to be honest, and a lot of good suggestions and discussion came out of it. That's what the forums are for - and if talking about XIV is REALLY what you think is going to kill XIV, I suggest you play Devil's Advocate for a while as it might help you to see things from the other side's point of view.
#7 Jan 07 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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And yet, those players are not ridiculed for taking only the negative side to the debate? I come along with a positive outlook on an in game mechanic and get MANY ratedowns, rebuttals and hostility. But those with the negative outlook are rated up, and followed in fear of ratedowns.

The same could be said for a large portion of the forum community here.


And yes, yes I strongly believe that the community makes or breaks a game. If the forums are full of negativity, new players will never pick up the game.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:44pm by DoctorMog
#8 Jan 07 2011 at 4:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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But what was your positive outlook?

"It's good that we are kept from truly customizing our characters so that we may enjoy the entire spectrum of strategy that XIV has to offer. Puts hair on our chests! You just need to stop being such morons and see it my way."

Honestly, that's how it read to me and I'm guessing a lot of other people. This isn't a case of having a genuinely positive spin on something - it's trying to spin something negative as being "good for us" despite the fact that it serves no purpose but to frustrate and confuse. There's nothing positive about that.
#9 Jan 07 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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The tone is no longer positive, that's the truth.

I lost the positive "tone" when all i got was ratedowns.

My videos and posts defend the systems of how the game currently works as not being "broken" I suppose was my point.
#10 Jan 07 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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A positive outlook with a condescending tone though. You came into a thread made by someone who clearly did not agree with your outlook, insulted people, insinuated that everyone but yourself was wrong for not having the same opinion as you, accused everyone else of being the reason for why the game is in bad shape, and then opened a new thread to complain about it when people disagreed with you.

Why would people rate you up for that?

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:50pm by SickleSageKiroh
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#11 Jan 07 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I was insulted first.

I directed it right back at the person who began the insulting.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:49pm by DoctorMog
#12 Jan 07 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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Nobody said it was "broken".

Tedious, cumbersome, unnecessary, yes. No one said it was broken - at least that I saw. That was the point I was trying to make, anyway - when we are all doing end game and trying to put together alliances this will be the bane of the Linkshell leader's existence.

I wouldn't worry much about one thread, though. You have a lot of good things to contribute and that one thread isn't a reflection of how people feel about you on these forums.
#13 Jan 07 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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But it is a problem with the community of the game.

My point is that I originally came here with a positive tone, videos explaining how to make the best of the SP system and other things, and was STILL rated down.

The community here needs a fresh look at this game, right now, its just a bandwagon of rate downs for supporters.

Rate downs because they don't agree with opinions rather than the tone of a post. And since many people that frequent the forums here are people that ARE dissatisfied with the game, there is little room for supporters of the current in game systems.

Everyone wants to change the game it seems, but few want to try to make it work.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:53pm by DoctorMog
#14 Jan 07 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
I was insulted first.

I directed it right back at the person who began the insulting.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:49pm by DoctorMog


Two wrongs don't make a right, as my grandparents used to say. Or better, an eye for an eye leaves the world blind. When someone insults you, rise above it, don't sink to their level. When someone disagrees with you, debate it, don't get angry about it.
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#15 Jan 07 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
And yet, those players are not ridiculed for taking only the negative side to the debate? I come along with a positive outlook on an in game mechanic and get MANY ratedowns, rebuttals and hostility. But those with the negative outlook are rated up, and followed in fear of ratedowns.

The same could be said for a large portion of the forum community here.


And yes, yes I strongly believe that the community makes or breaks a game. If the forums are full of negativity, new players will never pick up the game.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:44pm by DoctorMog


WTF are you talking about man? lool, its not like this is the illuminati and we better tag along "or else!!!"...seriously man, you've been worried about getting rated down and you voice it in every topic I've seen you post in as if you're life depended on it...chill out, who the **** cares about ratings, you're opinion will still be heard.

And for the record, the game will fail for a million other reasons first before it fails because someone is rating you down on a community forum. The game will fail because its not even ****** Final Fantasy aside than its name, it'll fail because it had a horrible launch, it'll fail because it has no content and even if all this is fixed it'll fail because its name has already been tainted. I hope it doesn't fail but these would be the reasons as to why...it *wont* fail because DoctorMog got rated down on ZAM...if it was that easy then SE would hire forumers to come on here and give you a few thumbs up for each post, problem solved.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:57pm by SolidMack
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#16 Jan 07 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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General rule of thumb I've picked up on:

If you stumble in to a thread where you think that you aren't going to change anyone's mind, sometimes it's best to not try. All you end up with in the end is 2-5 pages of arguing, frustration, and annoyance, and nothing to show for it but +1s and rate downs.

Unless of course you don't mind the rate downs to get the +1s, in which case, post away.
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#17 Jan 07 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
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I suppose I take it to personally.

I should just stop posting here for my own good. =/
#18 Jan 07 2011 at 4:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Two things:

First of all, you listed more than just one reason that the game will fail.

Second, it amazes me that people use the argument "He insulted me first, so I'm justified."

And last- This post is made just about every week.... I think the major reason this game will fail is the repetition of the SAME THING!!
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#19 Jan 07 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
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Well, take care guys. I'm sure a few will be glad to see me go.

How do I delete an account?
#20 Jan 07 2011 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
But it is a problem with the community of the game.

My point is that I originally came here with a positive tone, videos explaining how to make the best of the SP system and other things, and was STILL rated down.

The community here needs a fresh look at this game, right now, its just a bandwagon of rate downs for supporters.

Rate downs because they don't agree with opinions rather than the tone of a post. And since many people that frequent the forums here are people that ARE dissatisfied with the game, there is little room for supporters of the current in game systems.

Everyone wants to change the game it seems, but few want to try to make it work.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:53pm by DoctorMog

Just do what I do and don't worry about rate ups/downs. Just post what your thoughts are. If you are well-thought out and don't incite flame wars karma should take care of itself.
#21 Jan 07 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
I was insulted first.

I directed it right back at the person who began the insulting.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:49pm by DoctorMog


Really? A 'He started it'?

Look, I get your annoyance at the negativity, but I think you either seriously underestimate the resiliency of the community or simply don't understand how discussions tend to flesh out online. . . Typically, someone has an opinion, everyone else pipes in their ideas on the matter, fighting often ensues because no one ever really agrees on anything.

Does this mean the dark forces of naysayers will place so much doubt and depression on the fanbase of ffxiv that it will surely die? Probably not. What's ruining the game right now is all the bad press due to the game being released a little earlier than it should. SE is back-pedaling, our subscriptions are perma-free for the time being, and there is a survey out on how to best move forward. We don't need to pretend the game is in a good state right now, SE realizes the majority of people are displeased, and even those who are still playing more than likely have things they would like changed (myself included).

Simply NOT talking about those things, ignoring the negative things or ideas on change . . what does that do? Create a happy little community with nothing interesting to DISCUSS. Honestly, I think you should relax a bit, stop thinking the sky is falling because people are unhappy, and just enjoy the forums as a place to discuss and banter back and forth about things.
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#22 Jan 07 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I suppose so.
#23 Jan 07 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog, you're just as bad as the people who badmouth this game. You keep claiming that everything you say about the game is "proof" and "evidence". What I've learned from being one of the top contributing theorycrafters for WoW Hunters is that you can't "prove" anything without mathematical evidence.

Now, I'll defend this game all day from people who do nothing but badmouth it with nothing constructive to add. What I will not do is agree with someone who obviously has a God complex.

P.S. Who cares about karma? If you feel strongly enough about what you have to say, then say it.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:07pm by SoumaKyou
#24 Jan 07 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Well, take care guys. I'm sure a few will be glad to see me go.

How do I delete an account?


Wow you're such a drama queen lol.
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#25 Jan 07 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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The video I made about the new sp system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2twiceQ1dpE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_u1tm35az0

Does include mathematical evidence.

Killing mobs at 60SP per kill at a set rate = 10k SP an hour,
just as before killing Efts at 500 SP per kill at a much slower rate was the same 10k sp per hour.

I made those 2 videos to refute the system being "broken" to which the general opinion changed to "worse than the old system" which was also covered in the videos I made.

#26 Jan 07 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Default
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SolidMack wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
Well, take care guys. I'm sure a few will be glad to see me go.

How do I delete an account?


Wow you're such a drama queen lol.



Not going to get into it, but thats the sh*t im talking about.

I didn't start anything with you. Wtf.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:12pm by DoctorMog
#27 Jan 07 2011 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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To you're main point, I would suggest that its more likely a symptom of a bad game that's causing this particular problem. All these people didn't play beta, follow news, buy the game, hate it all with the intent of ******* on somebody else's parade. There are always a few trolls, but I think in this case, there's legit cause for a lot of it.

As for your rate downs, All I can say is that I never recognized your name until the thread you posted your SP videos in. You began that thread by being insulting (in my opinion), and often holier than thou, until you were down rated, then came back rather helpful, but still often insulting. I'm guessing you made some enemies along the way. But like someone said, if you feel you're being camped, report it. If its only a few people it'll be fixed.
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#28 Jan 07 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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How about just post your informative information if you want like you did about the NMs a little while back. Those contributed some good details about them. This thread is just drawing attention to things that don't need to be discussed.
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#29 Jan 07 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
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Its too late now to report it anyway.

Thank though.
#30 Jan 07 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
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lol, why you have so much hate foe each other??? you guys/girls get upset sooo easy!!


is just a game lol!!!
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#32 Jan 07 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, **** my karma, you are pretty much a douchebag yourself sir.
#33 Jan 07 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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Drama Queen sums it up nicely actually...

A lot of times people think the world revolves around them.. this is one of the scenarios...

LOOK AT ME!! LOOK AT ME!!!! Oh you don't agree with me? Well then I'm leaving!!!

::Looks back longingly...::

oh ya, Inb4 thread locked!!!

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:20pm by MaverickBG
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#34 Jan 07 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Well, take care guys. I'm sure a few will be glad to see me go.

How do I delete an account?


Lol, you should go post a few things in the Asylum. I'm sorry I cannot help but wanting to see a train wreck.
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#35 Jan 07 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
The video I made about the new sp system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2twiceQ1dpE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_u1tm35az0

Does include mathematical evidence.

Killing mobs at 60SP per kill at a set rate = 10k SP an hour,
just as before killing Efts at 500 SP per kill at a much slower rate was the same 10k sp per hour.

I made those 2 videos to refute the system being "broken" to which the general opinion changed to "worse than the old system" which was also covered in the videos I made.

I'm talking about that stat allocation system. I'm not disputing your SP system.

Honestly, I enjoy your informative posts about the SP system and the NM's.

I don't enjoy your claims about knowing this and that, and dismissing others' input because "they just don't understand it," claiming everything you say is fact while others' are opinions.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:24pm by SoumaKyou
#36 Jan 07 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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I'm on your side DoctorMog on community and positivity, but i have to disagree, that wont make the game fail.

If everyone here is negative then I'll take my positivity somewhere else. The haters will leave the game and if they continue to flame then it will be this forum that dies not the game. Those of us that want to get on with it will do so away from all the haters.
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#37 Jan 07 2011 at 5:27 PM Rating: Decent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Ok, @#%^ my karma, you are pretty much a douchebag yourself sir.


I'll go tell mommy! Smiley: cry
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#38 Jan 07 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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MrStyles wrote:
How about just post your informative information if you want like you did about the NMs a little while back. Those contributed some good details about them. This thread is just drawing attention to things that don't need to be discussed.


I haven't posted all that often outside of 11's forums. While Mog is drawing some unwanted attention (and some successful attempts to provoke), I have seen more unjust rate ups and downs on these than 11's had. Could be just that I've mellowed out over the years and my opinions have become less extreme.

I have seen people rated up for off-topic posts (such as just being like "Hi person posting from my linkshell, I see you!") to people being rated down for posting relevant information (updated recipes, for example). It has come up before in my linkshell, and I know of a few members who just quit posting on these forums because of the community.

Regardless of karma, someone here is having a bad day and people continue to antagonize instead of just moving along.
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#39 Jan 07 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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People need to calm down...

Mog is a true Paladin of FFXIV. All he tries to do is point out to people a different perspective to look at the game...its not his fault if people are so blind.

To be honest, if he leaves these hellish forums I dont blame him. The commuinity will be worse without people that try to be positive.

Poor FFXIV...its getting worse.
#40 Jan 07 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
General rule of thumb I've picked up on:

If you stumble in to a thread where you think that you aren't going to change anyone's mind, sometimes it's best to not try. All you end up with in the end is 2-5 pages of arguing, frustration, and annoyance, and nothing to show for it but +1s and rate downs.


I thought it was...

"If you stumble on a thread where you don't think you'll have an impact, make your own thread with a poll"... ^.~
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#41 Jan 07 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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PerrinofSylph, ****** Superhero wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
General rule of thumb I've picked up on:

If you stumble in to a thread where you think that you aren't going to change anyone's mind, sometimes it's best to not try. All you end up with in the end is 2-5 pages of arguing, frustration, and annoyance, and nothing to show for it but +1s and rate downs.


I thought it was...

"If you stumble on a thread where you don't think you'll have an impact, make your own thread with a poll"... ^.~



First haha that was a funny comment. Second I think we need another poll soon because I responded to Mikhalia's last one and am lost without another one to vote on.
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#42 Jan 07 2011 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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OP: You take this game far too seriously and what people say about it to heart

Get out more bro



PS: SP isn't broken, you're absolutely correct. Party play however, is.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 6:37pm by tylerbee
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#43 Jan 07 2011 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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DoctorMog wrote:
Well, take care guys. I'm sure a few will be glad to see me go.

How do I delete an account?


I don't know if you'll read this, but if you're anything like me you will probably read each response posted on this thread.

Don't leave the forums. I'm certain I'm not the only one who appreciates the time and effort you put into making not only the most incredibly helpful videos on XIV there are to date, but also your insightful forum posts.

That said, grow a thicker skin. It's the frickin' internet. Especially on gaming sites, 85% of people are trolls. Who gives a flying **** what they say or think?

All you can do is post your contributions, and hope the community sorts things out. If they don't, then it's the mods/admins turn.

If they can't do that, it's the forum that has failed, not the game.

This post is way too melodramatic, but that's my $.02.
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#44 Jan 07 2011 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think that the forums are an honest reflection of the current state of the game.

And that current state is fixing problematic in-game elements.

If you can't handle that (Karma wise) then move on.

On the flip side most of your posts have been rated up; you're currently a SAGE. It took me over 6 years to be one.

Do I care about karma, yeah I'd be lying if I didn't. However I try not to make that many troll-y posts, or posts regarding things like the karma system because usually they are auto-rate down. And even though karma is sometimes abused, for the most part it works well; people can usually tell whether you're being genuine and fair, or a pretentious pompous prick.

In the end I want this game to go well. I think the majority of fans DO want the game to succeed. I personally wouldn't be here if I didn't.

#45 Jan 07 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is exactly why I am walking away from FFXIV for the time being. I'm gonna wait until the fix the game, come back, and nevermind all the "game still sux" threads and play to my heart's content. Why not do that now? Quite simple. I agree with the majority. The game needs a lot of work, but I don't like seeing everyone post nasty, negative things trying to shove it down SE's throat here on the ZAM forums. It makes no viable sense, other than make one feel better about themselves. These forums are like a virtual band of mobs with pitchforks and torches. That alone doesn't help or fix anything.

"You're not playing because of this? You're crazy!" <--- in before the ****** who says this.

ZAM is suppose to be a site to get information. Right now its a task to look for stuff such as recipes and other things. To have to open 5 or six pages to learn where half of the sh*t to make the items is grossely annoying. And with all the negativity in the forums, it doesn't help. Maybe this will change later. So, I'll be back later.

#46 Jan 07 2011 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
My videos and posts defend the systems of how the game currently works as not being "broken" I suppose was my point.



I bought a bottle of aspirin. Turns out the bottle functioned. It wasn't fun, but it worked. Then again, the bottle of aspirin wasn't advertised as a game. My point being; just because it works, that doesn't mean it's a fun way to spend my time.
#47 Jan 07 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Sephrick wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
My videos and posts defend the systems of how the game currently works as not being "broken" I suppose was my point.



I bought a bottle of aspirin. Turns out the bottle functioned. It wasn't fun, but it worked. Then again, the bottle of aspirin wasn't advertised as a game. My point being; just because it works, that doesn't mean it's a fun way to spend my time.


And just because you don't find any fun in something doesn't mean others don't.
#48 Jan 07 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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DoctorMog wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
My videos and posts defend the systems of how the game currently works as not being "broken" I suppose was my point.



I bought a bottle of aspirin. Turns out the bottle functioned. It wasn't fun, but it worked. Then again, the bottle of aspirin wasn't advertised as a game. My point being; just because it works, that doesn't mean it's a fun way to spend my time.


And just because you don't find any fun in something doesn't mean others don't.


Weren't you deleting your account?

I must say to see your constant complaints about being rated down and "karma camped" it's pretty obvious you have people (friends, forum "buddies" and LS members) who rate up your posts regardless of their merit or validity.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 7:02pm by Sasorex
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#49 Jan 07 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
And lastly, if you don't like the game, stop playing. Take a break, and stop ruining it for the people that DO enjoy it.


I agree with the whole, "send feedback directly to SE" thing, but not this. I bought the game and my opinion of the game is just as valid as yours. If I am unhappy with what I paid for, I'm going to make it known, especially since I won't be getting a refund.
#50 Jan 07 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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2,202 posts
DoctorMog wrote:
And yet, those players are not ridiculed for taking only the negative side to the debate? I come along with a positive outlook on an in game mechanic and get MANY ratedowns, rebuttals and hostility. But those with the negative outlook are rated up, and followed in fear of ratedowns.

The same could be said for a large portion of the forum community here.


And yes, yes I strongly believe that the community makes or breaks a game. If the forums are full of negativity, new players will never pick up the game.

Edited, Jan 7th 2011 5:44pm by DoctorMog


To be honest, i flame this game probably every chance you people give(With reason) and get rated down all the time, even if what i'm saying at times is right, its the same at both ends of the spectrum :)
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MUTED
#51 Jan 07 2011 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,566 posts
Wolfums wrote:
DoctorMog wrote:
And lastly, if you don't like the game, stop playing. Take a break, and stop ruining it for the people that DO enjoy it.


I agree with the whole, "send feedback directly to SE" thing, but not this. I bought the game and my opinion of the game is just as valid as yours. If I am unhappy with what I paid for, I'm going to make it known, especially since I won't be getting a refund.


^This.

I've been increasingly vocal lately about the shortcomings of this game. I spent $70 on a shell. OP seems to think it's we the community who will make this game fail rather than the company that released an empty product.

To bring back my earlier analogy which, I'll admit, was a tad snarky. If I buy a bottle of aspirin, and there's no aspirin in it, I'm not going to just say "Oh, well, I'm sure someone would be happy with just a bottle." I want what I paid for, and what I paid for is what was advertised.

Internet arguments aside, SE's response has proven they agree with the side that this game was poorly released and that it needs to be corrected. The day they announce upcoming changes you'll see the community begin to slowly drift from one side of the spectrum to the other. The support for this game will come when SE gives people other than those who enjoy climbing to 50 and standing ontop of the mountain something to do.

And you know what? What SE adds will detract nothing from what it is people already like about this game. All there is for folks to do is a grind. Even if they radically redesign. It's an MMO. There will be a grind.
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