Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Is the combat system hindering socialization?Follow

#1 Jan 08 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
*
82 posts
These forums are littered with "Why isn't anyone talking?" threads. Even those of us with active linkshells can still make an argument that the socialization level in this game isn't nearly what it was in FFXI. While acknowledging all the other other factors such as lack of incentive to party, different generation of players, etc, etc, I believe there is one other factor which hasn't been discussed to date, at least as far as I'm aware. In my opinion the combat system is hamstringing social interaction to a great extent. Even more specifically, the lack of auto-attack. In FFXI we could initiate the attack and then were free to do as we pleased until our TP had built and it was time for us to hit our weaponskill or skillchain macro. Then we would rinse and repeat as necessary. This left ample time for players to interact with each other and their linkshells. I enjoyed the talks that resulted from this opportunity. it gave me a chance to break up the monotony of long exp parties and allowed me to make forge new friendships with those players in my party.

By forcing us to interact with the combat system on such a continual and frequent basis, it is my opinion that SE has effectively eliminated this type of opportunity for social interaction. When you expand this to include the assumption that a majority of people spend a great deal of their in-game time in combat, I believe this provides a valid explaination for, at least in part, why socialization is suffering. Do others have this impression as well, or am I way out in left field?
#2 Jan 08 2011 at 11:09 AM Rating: Good
**
845 posts
Yes it is, crafting system too to some extent.
____________________________

#3 Jan 08 2011 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
*
82 posts
UncleRuckusForLife wrote:
Yes it is, crafting system too to some extent.


I agree. I left it out because I don't think it's quite as bad (there's more time in between standard-spams than "1" spams), and I also don't think quite as many people engage in crafting. But overall I agree. The combat system is an easy fix. Give us auto attack. A solution for the crafting system isn't quite as glaring though, I don't think. Not without dumbing it down to the "hit button make item" level, which I'm not in favor of at all.
#4 Jan 08 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
***
2,120 posts
It's been discussed at great lengths on here, but haven't seen it come up in some time. I definitely think it explains part of the communication issues. The forever scrolling chatlog both with fighting & crafting fits there as well. And as a controller user I hate grabbing the mouse to scroll up to see what I missedSmiley: grin.

I think to some extent that's part of why I enjoy crafting & gathering over fighting. Aside from the excessive scrolling, I can chat fine while crafting and definitely while gathering. But if I'm in a fight, you're probably not going to get a response. Even worse in a leve with a series of fights. That also hurts some of the benefits of grouping for me too. There's very little time for chit chat so even doing leves in a group of LS friends is pretty quiet.

Edit-
Some ideas brought up in past discussions were an auto-attack toggle that can be used if/when you want and changing the action bar to where you can stack multiple actions in a queue ahead of time.

Edited, Jan 8th 2011 12:31pm by TwistedOwl
____________________________

#5 Jan 08 2011 at 11:21 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
They should make the combat completely uninvolving like in XI. I agree.

not.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#6 Jan 08 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
*****
12,709 posts
Hmm, it's possible, though I have no trouble talking since I fight at a moderate pace so I don't wear out my stamina in seconds.
____________________________

#7 Jan 08 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
*
230 posts
Its not so much just the battle system as anything non chat related. The fact that as soon as you click anywhere else outside the chat box the text you were typing gets cleared. This alone makes it very tedious to do anything while chatting because the second you click another skill or move your camera or anything your sentence is gone and you have to start over. The only time i can actually type more then a few words is when im on auto run or idling.
____________________________

#8 Jan 08 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
**
602 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
They should make the combat completely uninvolving like in XI. I agree.

not.


Oh like XIV's is involving. The only difference between XI and XIV is that it matters were you're standing and that you have to press the same button over and over like a dumbass because there is no autoattack.

I'd actually like of two:

Either a strategic somewhat uninvolved system like XI's

or

Something a lot more action packed like demon's souls'. You know, where skill takes a bigger seat.
And demon's souls' also had stats and abilities, so if you think about it, its totally doable. You just need to figure out how to fit all the abilities into it.
____________________________
FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#9 Jan 08 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
The only difference between XI and XIV is that it matters were you're standing and that you have to press the same button over and over like a dumbass because there is no autoattack.


Oh yes, because you don't get TP a lot faster here, nor do you fight a larger set of monsters simultaneously.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#10 Jan 08 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
IMO of all the changes, the crafting system consistantly gets overlooked... There really needs to be a pause command for crafting. It doesn't affect anyone by implimenting one, but by not doing so it limits chat to less than what the old chat system allowed with its text limit.

As to combat, I have a few things macro'd... but I really dislike using up macro slots for communication purposes.
____________________________
FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#11 Jan 08 2011 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,530 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:
Even worse in a leve with a series of fights. That also hurts some of the benefits of grouping for me too. There's very little time for chit chat so even doing leves in a group of LS friends is pretty quiet.


Yes, definately this. The few times I've actually joined a party with someone it was just "kill, kill, run, run, kill, kill, (| Nice to meet you. |), (| Take care. |)."

I tried to talk, I tried to make a joke here and there, but nobody responded, probably because the combat is constantly rushing you and probably because they never even noticed I said anything. I miss FFXI.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#12 Jan 08 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
71 posts
Yes. The two hour partys that kept you in one camp fighting one thing at a time provided ample time for chat. I actually liked it when the fights were mechanical and boring because if you made one little mistake (like thundaga when a cavebery happened to be a little to close to the target) could result in more fun that a person should have.
____________________________
We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful what we pretend to be.
Kurt Vonnegut
#13 Jan 08 2011 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
3,599 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
They should make the combat completely uninvolving like in XI. I agree.

not.


Did you actually play ffxi?

My puppetmaster doesn't have 1 second to chat between depolying, using maneuvers, engaging, ws's and making sure my puppets 2k Water V doesn't get it killed.

**** you making me miss FFXI...
____________________________


#14 Jan 09 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
Did you play anything other than PUP or BST?


Cause I could have easily bot-Cured most of my tanks on WHM...

...and I seen more AFK melee players who engage then walk off to make sandwiches or something than you could possibly shake a tree's worth of sticks at.
____________________________
Battle Mage Kiru
#15 Jan 15 2011 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
5 posts
I agree with the OP here. In the beginning I really liked the current system. I felt more involved in battle I guess you could say. Now I think it does hinder our communication abilities. Unless your stamina is gassed out, you'll be losing DPS with every chat attempt. It also hinders tactical aspects of the game. Imagine leading end game type runs when they are implemented. (ie. FFXI HNMS) You'll be pretty much sitting there not doing anything as a leader just so you may command the battlefield. Just a small example of many problems that could arise.
____________________________

#16 Jan 15 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*
235 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
They should make the combat completely uninvolving like in XI. I agree.

not.


I see lots of people say this, or that the FFXI battle system was boring because it had auto attack.

I don't get it. Auto attack was only for normal attacks, you still had to manage everything else... and there was about 10 times more things to be organized about and manage in a party in FFXI then there is in FFXIV. Taking away auto attack doesn't magically make the game more involving or more strategic. Now, you just have to spam 1 or A on your controller just to perform normal attacks inbetween using abilities. In XI it was nice to have auto attack because you had to know what others in the party where doing and when they were doing it. in XIV its just a free-for-all for everyone. Partying in FFXIV is almost like a group of people soloing together.

Anyways, I rather have an auto attack for normal hits and yes, I believe it makes communicating so much easier. I still try to talk during parties in XIV, but no one EVER answers.
____________________________


#17 Jan 15 2011 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
**
265 posts
i still love the "DDs in FFXI could click on it and go get a sandwich" bit, its halarious, they clearly did not play...or play very far in general. Have you played in in endgame party...or even a mid level one? When the mobs moving a lot or your killing at such speeds there is not time to go afk...heck you barely had time to talk at that point. People act like all you did was auto attack and thats it...wich is a giant load. It may have been pretty simple early on when you did have much to do, but it dont stay that way.


This BS is probably coming from the same group that keeps saying "FFXI wasnt hard, it was just a time sink". They clearly didnt get far or do anything aside from level.
#18 Jan 15 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
597 posts
SevenNajelith wrote:
Imagine leading end game type runs when they are implemented. (ie. FFXI HNMS) You'll be pretty much sitting there not doing anything as a leader just so you may command the battlefield. Just a small example of many problems that could arise.


My first question to the raid leader would be "Why aren't you relaying this over Vent? I mean, we're all on and listening."

Scape13 wrote:
Hyanmen wrote:
They should make the combat completely uninvolving like in XI. I agree.

not.


I see lots of people say this, or that the FFXI battle system was boring because it had auto attack.

I don't get it. Auto attack was only for normal attacks, you still had to manage everything else... and there was about 10 times more things to be organized about and manage in a party in FFXI then there is in FFXIV. Taking away auto attack doesn't magically make the game more involving or more strategic. Now, you just have to spam 1 or A on your controller just to perform normal attacks inbetween using abilities. In XI it was nice to have auto attack because you had to know what others in the party where doing and when they were doing it. in XIV its just a free-for-all for everyone. Partying in FFXIV is almost like a group of people soloing together.


The problem with FFXI wasn't that it had auto-attack; the problem was that there weren't that many abilities for players to keep track of. Most attacks--especially melee--had either TP requirements or long cooldowns that you had to wait out before they could be used. This lull in combat at all levels gave ample time to type out lengthy conversations with other players; conversations that only existed to stave off the boredom of watching your character auto-hit things until one of his cooldowns was up.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#19 Jan 15 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
Quote:
I don't get it. Auto attack was only for normal attacks, you still had to manage everything else..


Oh yeah, boost before WS'ing every few mins. And using Focus, that always caught me off guard!

If they only took out the auto-attack this game would be as good as dead. Are you honestly oblivious to the fact that we are using abilities slightly more often than we ever did in XI? And that is without taking into account fighting more than one mob at time or whatever direction based skills there are.

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 7:40pm by Hyanmen
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#20 Jan 15 2011 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
**
265 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
I don't get it. Auto attack was only for normal attacks, you still had to manage everything else..


Oh yeah, boost before WS'ing every few mins. And using Focus, that always caught me off guard!

If they only took out the auto-attack this game would be as good as dead. Are you honestly oblivious to the fact that we are using abilities slightly more often than we ever did in XI? And that is without taking into account fighting more than one mob at time or whatever direction based skills there are.

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 7:40pm by Hyanmen


I still find this halarious considering FFXI is doing better subs after 8 years and its overall score is 8~ compared to FFXIV which is failing miserably and has a score of 4.0~. The fact that even in the replica poll that combat changes where by far one of the bigger picks and that its even a question on the poll means that its not good.

but yah OMG 1,1,1,1,2,1,1 maybe a 3 in there every few mins for an attack boost ability...soooo much different then FFXI XD its the same thing except you have to keep hitting the basic attack button and you WS more often...whoopie! You can make anything sound simple and dumb sir.

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 1:35pm by zanfire

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 1:36pm by zanfire
#21 Jan 15 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
***
3,416 posts
8 year old game with 8 year old expectations. The only 'halarious' thing here is your implication that it would make XI somehow a better game because it has an excuse to be bad.
____________________________
SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#22 Jan 15 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
**
265 posts
Hyanmen wrote:
8 year old game with 8 year old expectations. The only 'halarious' thing here is your implication that it would make XI somehow a better game because it has an excuse to be bad.


Lol and your excuses dont make FFXIV look any better. And yes FFXI is the better game, subs, the amount of years its been around (and still going) and overall scores makes it better game in my eyes and clearly many others. FFXIV right now is crap to most people....hence the state its in. You can keep taking swings at FFXI, but its already been sucsessful, FFXIV has been nothing but a giant money pit for them.
#23 Jan 15 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Lol at people using monk as an example. Anybody worth their **** was doing stuff constantly on a majority of jobs. Sure you could do nothing and keep peopled healed as whm, but that's called being a crappy whm. There's was much to do at lower levels, granted, but there never is. FFXI combat was as fast paced as WoW combat by the time you were at mid to high level.

Back to ffxiv; Auto-attack needs to be there, at least a little bit.
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#24 Jan 15 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
The solution for the difficulty with chatting while crafting is to remove the ridiculous design component that aborts your text entry every time you finish an action. That's all there is to it. People don't talk much while crafting because they've got a 10 second timer ticking down between actions and they've got 5-6 seconds while an action animation is underway to type out their message before it gets canceled.
#25 Jan 15 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
I suggested an attack queuing system in the beta to help alleviate this problem.

No sign of movement on that yet, but hopefully they'll listen.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#26 Jan 16 2011 at 3:12 AM Rating: Default
**
395 posts
Because good linkshells use Teamspeak 3. Lame ones use Ventrilo. Bad ones don't voice chat :D

The whole game hinders socialization when theres still a lot of actions that erase your chat bar. Like stuff during crafting.

It does kind of suck that to type something in game means you can't hit the mob. Apparently adventurers never hold of multi tasking.
____________________________

http://www.prismaticllama.com/
http://www.sologensystems.com
The Prismatic Llama - Peru's llamas got nothing on us.
#27 Jan 16 2011 at 3:20 AM Rating: Good
***
1,004 posts
Without a proper voice implementation (like many online games including some popular MMOs already have) - it's going to be hard to expect 'chat' like we used to do in FFXI. I watched FFXI text based chatting dwindle over the years, and it's to the point that even in that game the only text we see is /shouts for group activities or 'pull/assist-macro' spam. Things leaning towards voice isn't a terrible thing, I personally love Ventrilo and talk daily with people I met in FFXI many years ago - and chat is still an option for the quiet types. The problem is that if a game doesn't implement some good party-segmenting chat tools (I.E. - individual chat rooms with built in voice communication capability) a current-day MMO will likely have a hard time succeeding if by no limitations except those walls blocking communication with one another.
____________________________
Posting from just above the generator.
#28 Jan 18 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Deadgye wrote:
Lol at people using monk as an example. Anybody worth their sh*t was doing stuff constantly on a majority of jobs. Sure you could do nothing and keep peopled healed as whm, but that's called being a crappy whm. There's was much to do at lower levels, granted, but there never is. FFXI combat was as fast paced as WoW combat by the time you were at mid to high level.

Back to ffxiv; Auto-attack needs to be there, at least a little bit.



Wow DG, thought you dropped off the face o' the Earth!
#29 Jan 19 2011 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
*
213 posts
Aurelius wrote:
The solution for the difficulty with chatting while crafting is to remove the ridiculous design component that aborts your text entry every time you finish an action. That's all there is to it. People don't talk much while crafting because they've got a 10 second timer ticking down between actions and they've got 5-6 seconds while an action animation is underway to type out their message before it gets canceled.


They actually already fixed this 1. The chatlog will stay open during your entire synth, but when you are done, it still closes.

Just my 2cents; although auto attack was nice, I really really really hated sandwich melee =\(people going afk while fighting to make food or w/e). It happened so often it was painful. I really don't want to see anything like this happen again...
____________________________


#30 Jan 20 2011 at 4:24 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Quote:
Wow DG, thought you dropped off the face o' the Earth!

With school, anime, and TF2 I barely have any free time left! :3 Probably not going to consider starting xiv back up unless they fix a good deal of the problems. First and foremost is the combat system, and second is the communication system.

Quote:
I really really really hated sandwich melee =\(people going afk while fighting to make food or w/e). It happened so often it was painful. I really don't want to see anything like this happen again...

I took a shower once when leveling dancer. This was mostly due to me using ffxi to test something.. which involved inputting text commands whenever key phrases appeared in the chat log.. <.<; >.>;

Edited, Jan 20th 2011 5:27am by Deadgye
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#31 Jan 20 2011 at 5:10 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,608 posts
Sandwich melee? HA! First thing that came to mind was a monster sandwiched between two melee. That or a melee sandwiched between two other melees.

I gotta find a way to use this...
____________________________

#32 Jan 20 2011 at 5:18 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
LyleVertigo wrote:
Sandwich melee? HA! First thing that came to mind was a monster sandwiched between two melee. That or a melee sandwiched between two other melees.

I gotta find a way to use this...


I originally pictured two tf2 heavies punching each other like men. :p
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
#33 Jan 20 2011 at 5:31 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,608 posts
Deadgye wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
Sandwich melee? HA! First thing that came to mind was a monster sandwiched between two melee. That or a melee sandwiched between two other melees.

I gotta find a way to use this...


I originally pictured two tf2 heavies punching each other like men. :p


lol, I knew what heavieswere but I didn't know the game they came from XD

One of my favorites
____________________________

#34 Jan 20 2011 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
It's Just a Flesh Wound
******
22,699 posts
Vastly superior favorite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1G6_3dTg0Q

Voice casting in TF2 rivals animation quality in xiv.

Edited, Jan 20th 2011 7:13am by Deadgye
____________________________
Dear people I don't like: 凸(●´―`●)凸
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 22 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (22)