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Being a white knight for the game doesn't help it!Follow

#1 Jan 10 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Decent
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I've seen a few users on this forum trying to be a white knight and defend this game as the best game ever and greatest creation since sliced bread.

I just wanted to point out that doing this in the games own forums is horrible and 100% of the time leads to a ****** game. It makes devs think your content with broken systems, like the SP system (come on 100 sp a kill for 100,000 tnl??)

I'll cite some examples:
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - at first it was all trolling with the state of the game. Then, the trolls went away to find something better. The white knights remained, in a state of denial and now nobody gives a **** about the game and its <1000 players (it only has one server now!)

Tabula Rasa - Trolls went away due to lack of content and dev feedback, flamed the game to everyone who didn't play it, white knights posted on forums how much they loved it, game didn't change, and is now shut down.

Age of Conan - The trolls never went away, and a year later it became a fun and enjoyable game.

Final Fantasy XI - The FF brand kept players of all kinds and eventually became the best MMO of all time. STFU if you disagree :D (yes UO was great but come on!)


Some forum users (and you know who you are) who defend every aspect of the game as it is always leads to developers being content with things and only making minor changes. Devs see a major difference between "Oh the game is fantastic, little buggy in places but overall amazing keep up the good work!" and "This game is horrendous, I want to like it but I can't enter the market wards without crashing, I feel like theres nothing to do when not grinding and the whole game feels like an empty void that I don't want to pay for".

Just a thought >.>
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#2 Jan 10 2011 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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The list of criticizers far outweigh the defenders. I don't think you have anything to worry about.
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#3 Jan 10 2011 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Pulseczar wrote:
The list of criticizers far outweigh the defenders. I don't think you have anything to worry about.


Thats why your posts are both at default already ^^

I find myself defending the game more often than not but I repeatedly say, stuff like ... early stages... we know the faults... released too early... and yes if it was brilliant it wouldn't be free. It has been acknowledged in the right way that it is not good enough.

I remain positive, patches have moved us forward in the right way and like the OP said about XI it became the best MMO of all time and I agree :D

Likewise this game has the potential to be an all time great, perhaps not as good as XI but still a great. Theres a reason why I have 14 FF titles lined up on my shelves.

I'll just say what I've been saying all along. I like the game and am enjoying it more than any other at this equivalent stage.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 10:54am by Metin
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#4 Jan 10 2011 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Pulseczar wrote:
The list of criticizers far outweigh the defenders. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

On the other hand more people will be quick to complain because they are ranting compared to those who enjoy the game.

If you got 200 people and 100 hates XIV and 100 loved it, I can promise you now there will be probably 50 posts complaining about the game and about 5 giving credit.

Work out the rest your self. Even on XI I saw more complaint threads for years against the "I love this game".
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#5 Jan 10 2011 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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People also like to confuse someone who is genuinely enjoying certain things with defending it. Not everything is a defense, if someone hates it that's them. I love fatty tuna but I know many dislike sushi but wouldn't consider me defending it because I explain why I like it. I've only ever seen the term 'white knight' and 'defending' applied to SE and XI/XIV because of how jaded people get about the games and I've played tons of MUDs and MMOs lol.
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#6 Jan 10 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have yet to see anyone claim FFXIV as the best anything. I see a lot of people praising the things it does well and the potential it has.


side note* Tabula Rasa was awesome and I hated to see it shut down.
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#7 Jan 10 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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Fanboys have as much right to speak their mind as panning critics. I highly doubt rallying a bunch of forum-goers to take off their rose-colored glasses will make this game great. It is SE's responsibility to differentiate between constructive criticism and fawning worship.
#8 Jan 10 2011 at 9:34 AM Rating: Good
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Pulseczar wrote:
The list of criticizers far outweigh the defenders. I don't think you have anything to worry about.


I believe, my friend, that a more accurate statement would be, "The criticizers are far more militantly vocal than the defenders." The defenders have been thoroughly beat into submission, largely due to rants like the OP, and we don't dare poke our heads out of the hole for fear of being hammered back down again.

The game has flaws, to be sure. Some of them are quite glaring. While there are many things I hope to see changed, there is much about the game I find enjoyable. I just choose to focus on enjoying that which I can and submit feedback through the proper channels (read "through the feedback mechanism SE has set up, not raging on the forums"), rather than being a negative nancy and ruining both my good time and the good times of those around me.

Yes, it is possible to both enjoy the game currently and still hope for and work towards positive changes. If that makes me this "white knight" which everyone loves to throw under the bus, then so be it...
#9 Jan 10 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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This pretty much sounds like a "Cheap Shot" against Doctor Mog. Since we're all on the same server I can see the "competition" ;)

But still, as most people already said...the negative feedback for FFXIV far outweighs the positive.
And not to jump on Mogs bandwagon, but at least hes trying to give people directions on how this game "can be fun", if you like some of the stuff hes doing or showing etc.

I personally don't need the "advice", I do have fun and I know how to have fun by myself, or rather with people I like playing with^^
#10 Jan 10 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
[quote]Elswick78:
I believe, my friend, that a more accurate statement would be, "The criticizers are far more militantly vocal than the defenders." The defenders have been thoroughly beat into submission, largely due to rants like the OP, and we don't dare poke our heads out of the hole for fear of being hammered back down again.

The game has flaws, to be sure. Some of them are quite glaring. While there are many things I hope to see changed, there is much about the game I find enjoyable. I just choose to focus on enjoying that which I can and submit feedback through the proper channels (read "through the feedback mechanism SE has set up, not raging on the forums"), rather than being a negative nancy and ruining both my good time and the good times of those around me.

Yes, it is possible to both enjoy the game currently and still hope for and work towards positive changes. If that makes me this "white knight" which everyone loves to throw under the bus, then so be it...




Well spoken.
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#11 Jan 10 2011 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's lovely that people get labeled something for liking the game. :)

I agree with all of you guys that the game would not be improving at all if it wasn't being criticized by its playerbase. And a healthy debate is good and entertaining, however what irks me is that

1.) Some people feel entitled to certain things.
2.) People who say that they will never ever play again still linger on here for no reason but to **** me off.
3.) When people ban together and say "YEAH WE GOT THEM!" whenever something happens as if they were directly responsible for something.

I don't work at SE, so i do not know if they actually browse the ffxiv community forums, but I'm pretty sure that this isn't the place that they get the bulk of feedback. I'm pretty sure there's a good number of people that do not actually know how to fill out an official feedback form.

All this white Knight Vs. Trolls stuff makes everyone else have a boring forum to visit.
#12 Jan 10 2011 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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I enjoy the game but I realize at this point in its development, it's basically my job to point out its flaws and bugs that need fixing.

Seriously, why are we playing for free if not to help SE fix up the game?
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#13 Jan 10 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Seriously, why are we playing for free if not to help SE fix up the game?


Eh, to be honest. They have enough feedback to last for 2 years already.

All we could do is test the post-patch changes. Other than that there really is no reason to play if you don't actually like the game as-is.
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#14 Jan 10 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't really blame white knights for anything. I don't doubt that there are some people who are completely happy with this game. What I do feel though and I think people need to realize, that without change, this game simply does not have enough of a base to continue much longer.
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#15 Jan 10 2011 at 11:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Shezard wrote:
This pretty much sounds like a "Cheap Shot" against Doctor Mog. Since we're all on the same server I can see the "competition" ;)

But still, as most people already said...the negative feedback for FFXIV far outweighs the positive.
And not to jump on Mogs bandwagon, but at least hes trying to give people directions on how this game "can be fun", if you like some of the stuff hes doing or showing etc.

I personally don't need the "advice", I do have fun and I know how to have fun by myself, or rather with people I like playing with^^

At what point did I reference mog, or another player on our server?
I said forums not server lol.

I said I saw a few people defending things 99% of the people absolutely -hate- the way it is now, and trying to rally people around something that is hated can lead to developers thinking its not a big deal.

Again, this kind of stuff killed Vanguard. Remember that was backed by Sony and had the same kind of launch as 14. They did the same thing at this stage too, they fired all the development team and brought in new people, the new people looked at the forums, and changed the game based on the priorities it saw, and it died because they chose the wrong ones.
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#16 Jan 10 2011 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Being an obnoxious troll who does nothing but badmouth the game all day does nothing for the game either.
#17 Jan 10 2011 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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What would be most helpful is if SE had a moderated forum for FFXIV. Where suggestions and bug issues would go into appropriate places. We can all agree its SE's move and we are waiting for the next update. I also like when they have developers blogs, or any insight they can give us. Wishful thinking I know.
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#18 Jan 10 2011 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Nah, its cool.

Some good points in this thread. I never intended to white knight the game as people think, more just offer the counter opinion in a lot of cases rather than let the negative one be the one opinion expressed on the forum because nobody else would stand up.

Hmm, guess that is white knighting, but that wasn't my intent! haaha.
#19 Jan 10 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've never seen Mog "white knight" the game as the best thing since sliced bread; I've just seen Mog offer constructive and positive ideas on how to SP efficiently within the confines of the games current systems. I personally appreciate that level of positivity, and I look forward to his posts. Keep up the good work ^^

I understand what the OP is trying to say, and it is a cause for concern when people champion such a flawed and broken game. I always qq here at ZAM about the grind and I still say that the game is too grindy for casual players to enjoy the game.

Unfortunately, SE might command enough brand loyalty that no matter how bad their product is, people will buy it, play it, and pay for it some more. This game also has a very hardcore, dedicated, and fanatical contingent of it's player base that logs 8+ hours per day.

Crackheads will complain about the quality of the crack rock they are buying, but at the end of the day, they still buy it because they are crackheads.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 2:16pm by thejones
#20 Jan 10 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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Eadieni wrote:

Again, this kind of stuff killed Vanguard. Remember that was backed by Sony and had the same kind of launch as 14. They did the same thing at this stage too, they fired all the development team and brought in new people, the new people looked at the forums, and changed the game based on the priorities it saw, and it died because they chose the wrong ones.


Sadly, in my opinion Vanguard was more fun to play in beta than FFXIV is in its current state. I was in the beta for over a year and spent plenty of time butting heads with people on the forums. Originally the game was backed by Microsoft though and they pulled funding when the developers refused to compromise their vision (from what I undestand). I quit when Sony took over because I hated what they were doing to all their MMOs at the time. I think it was already in trouble by that point as most of the core players were ex-EQ fanatics that had a deep hatred of everything SOE.
#21 Jan 10 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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I played VG: SoH for about six (6) months just prior to the release of FFXIV.

It's the most amazing game that nobody ever played, and it is a travishamockery what became of it.
#22 Jan 10 2011 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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The opinion of gamers is highly subjective. What works for one person isn't going to work for everyone else. I think where things fall apart and the debates get started is when people argue points with no substance behind their opinion. If we all lived in a one MMO bubble we could look at any aspect in FFXIV like it's its own particular brand of awesome but that's not the world we live in. People who post their criticism here in ZAM's FFXIV General Discussion Forum aren't helping the game...they're in the wrong forum for that. But they're also not simply trolling because they're being critical. Lots of people here have absolutely no idea what trolling means. If you're inclined to label someone a troll simply because they're being critical, you're ignorant. Here, let me help you.

I think the bottom line is that if SE can turn XIV around and offer a successful game by current standards (ie. ~500k active subs), they're going to have to pull an awfully rare rabbit out of their hat. You can't botch a launch like this and expect an easy recovery. There are too many other MMOs coming into the market this year for SE to reasonably expect to bring back a lot of the folks who left. There is too much on the horizon to bring in a lot of the folks who never bought FFXIV and opted to hold off until they heard some positive press about what SE has done with the game itself, not what SE has done with the dev team or what SE plans to do with the game. That's just fact. That has nothing to do with whether or not you think the SP tuning is fine or you've found enough about the game to remain entertained while SE works on this or that. And along with that fact is the reality that the longer SE takes to implement the changes that might attract enough players to make the game viable from a business standpoint, the closer they get to that tragic threshold where it's better to just pull the plug and cut their losses than it is to keep pouring more money into it to try and salvage it.

Outside of FFXIV fan sites, nobody is talking about FFXIV in a positive way. If it comes up at all, mention of FFXIV is met with sighs and shaking heads. General MMO sites and podcasts aren't talking about what the new dev team is doing...they're talking about Rift and SWTOR and DCUO and Guild Wars 2. FFXIV is old news. It had its chance and it did what it did and if/when the devs do something substantial to the game it'll probably get a second look but until then, FFXIV falls into the same category as APB for the most part.
#23 Jan 10 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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thejones wrote:
I played VG: SoH for about six (6) months just prior to the release of FFXIV.

It's the most amazing game that nobody ever played, and it is a travishamockery what became of it.

MMeh I did like the game lol. It had good intentions and a good design document just ... poor use of funding, bad management, a case of WoW-clone-itus, and really high computer specs to play the game smoothly.


similar situation to ff14 except for the wow clone part.

point is i don't want to see FFXIV become a single server mmo because it only has 4000 players :D

turning a blind eye to problems with the game and living in a state of denial to other people who play doesn't keep updates coming :D
Fortunately SE will turn this around lol.


As I said I wasn't really referencing mog and i gave no indication of my server in my post (except my sig) for that reason. I ignore mog since he trolled and flamed our linkshell recruitment post on the Istory server :P So it's kind of unnecessary to defend someone that wasn't being attacked isn't it?

I don't know so I'll try - Guys lay off George Bush he did the best he could! Y'all are too mean to him!

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 2:53pm by Eadieni
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#24 Jan 10 2011 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
If you're inclined to label someone a troll simply because they're being critical, you're ignorant. Here, let me help you.

What's the difference between a defender of the game calling a hater a troll, and a hater of the game calling a defender a fanboy?

Nothing. Just two sides of the same coin.
#25 Jan 10 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
If you're inclined to label someone a troll simply because they're being critical, you're ignorant. Here, let me help you.

What's the difference between a defender of the game calling a hater a troll, and a hater of the game calling a defender a fanboy?

Nothing. Just two sides of the same coin.


A fanboi calls a critic a troll. A troll calls someone who enjoys the game a fanboi. Everyone else gets stuck in between.
#26 Jan 10 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
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OP is one of those idiots who'd rather kill the blue con critter ad nauseam for sake of ease then go find a yellow or orange con to level up on. If you are getting 100 sp a critter its you who are doing something wrong. Stop blaming the game for your own laziness.
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#27 Jan 10 2011 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
If you're inclined to label someone a troll simply because they're being critical, you're ignorant. Here, let me help you.

What's the difference between a defender of the game calling a hater a troll, and a hater of the game calling a defender a fanboy?

Nothing. Just two sides of the same coin.


A fanboi calls a critic a troll. A troll calls someone who enjoys the game a fanboi. Everyone else gets stuck in between.


and both add nothing to either side of any debate either, we still have a ton of trolls who come in and are obvious, you know the ones who post "lol this game fails" and so on.....nothing else

then you got those who sit there and call people trolls and nothing else...



i think the problem is anyone who debates now is either a troll if they are against the game or a white knight if they are for a game, it doesnt matter if they are what it actualy defines anymore


neither of the true definitions of these add any feedback anyone canuse to better the game, the people who actualy post suggestions,a nd talk about the state of things, and what can be done, wether they like them or not are the ones being helpful
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#28 Jan 10 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Seriously, why are we playing for free if not to help SE fix up the game?


Eh, to be honest. They have enough feedback to last for 2 years already.

All we could do is test the post-patch changes. Other than that there really is no reason to play if you don't actually like the game as-is.


New feedback is needed after every update, though.

And I enjoy the game, but it can always be made better.
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#29 Jan 10 2011 at 2:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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thehellfire wrote:
OP is one of those idiots who'd rather kill the blue con critter ad nauseam for sake of ease then go find a yellow or orange con to level up on. If you are getting 100 sp a critter its you who are doing something wrong. Stop blaming the game for your own laziness.


The only difference in terms of challenge between a blue mob and a yellow/orange mob is...well, there's really not much difference. It just takes longer to kill higher ranked mobs. Why spend 200% of the time for 140% of the SP? It doesn't take long for SP gain over time from facerolling blue con mobs to oustrip the SP gain over time from facerolling yellow/orange mobs. It has nothing to do with challenge or effort. Challenge would be grinding on mobs 6-9 ranks above you, and the SP gains for doing so would be sub-par. I think that's the heart of the criticism right now is that you're not rewarded for investing the "effort" (aka time) to up the risk.
#30 Jan 10 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vedis wrote:
and both add nothing to either side of any debate either, we still have a ton of trolls who come in and are obvious, you know the ones who post "lol this game fails" and so on.....nothing else

then you got those who sit there and call people trolls and nothing else...



i think the problem is anyone who debates now is either a troll if they are against the game or a white knight if they are for a game, it doesnt matter if they are what it actualy defines anymore


neither of the true definitions of these add any feedback anyone canuse to better the game, the people who actualy post suggestions,a nd talk about the state of things, and what can be done, wether they like them or not are the ones being helpful


It's not even really about the game. It's about forums in general. There's always an abundance of people in a forum who can't help but try and force people into opposing camps. You can't single out one aspect of the game for praise/criticism without some dork coming along and taking that as a commentary on the entire game. If someone starts a thread about gladiator combat mechanics and I post in that thread about how I enjoy those mechanics, it's almost guaranteed that someone is going to come along and get their shorts all wedged in their *** crack and cry about everything else that is wrong with the game. And I'd probably agree with a lot of their criticisms of a lot of other things about the game but it has no place in a thread about gladiator combat mechanics. And they aren't reflecting well on their general intelligence for being unable to tell the difference between a discussion on an isolated system and the game as a whole, but that's par for the course.
#31 Jan 10 2011 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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As some one who has never been a white knight for FFXIV, I agree that being a white knight does not help.

However, complaining endlessly over the same few topics also does not help. Any one who hates the game so much that they can only say negative things about it should simply take the step of not playing it. If you know of ways the game can be improved, then make an argument for those improvements that goes beyond "S-E is the suxxorz!" so that other people can read your post and maybe learn some thing or be drawn into a stimulating conversation instead of a "My opinion is right, your opinion is wrong" flame fest. Believe it or not, some people do enjoy playing the game, so their positive comments are not merely contrarian spin.

I'm not accusing the OP of doing this, I'm just saying, there's plenty of room to be dissatisfied on the forum without being a burden to those who come here for enjoyment.

It's possible to come to the forums every day or every other day, read what people have to say, and not even necessarily post a response or a criticism all of the time.

As a great man once said, "Follow your dreams. You can achieve your goals. I am living proof. Beefcake. BEEFCAKE!"

Edit:

I'd say the problem is that there are people who are so emotional over the game that they will rate some one down just for making a balanced post appealing for a moderate and measured discussion. I don't really care that much about my karma, because I barely post here any more, and it would take hundreds of badly rated posts to drop down to scholar any way (and probably just as many "excellent" to hit Guru), but it's illustrative of the general approach that some people take. It's difficult to even try to stake out some middle ground without offending some one enough that they seek "punishment."

My hat is off to those who continue having real discussions here without taking it all personally.



Edited, Jan 10th 2011 3:23pm by KarlHungis

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 3:25pm by KarlHungis
#32 Jan 10 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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KarlHungis wrote:
As some one who has never been a white knight for FFXIV, I agree that being a white knight does not help.

However, complaining endlessly over the same few topics also does not help. Any one who hates the game so much that they can only say negative things about it should simply take the step of not playing it. If you know of ways the game can be improved, then make an argument for those improvements that goes beyond "S-E is the suxxorz!" so that other people can read your post and maybe learn some thing or be drawn into a stimulating conversation instead of a "My opinion is right, your opinion is wrong" flame fest.

I'm not accusing the OP of doing this, I'm just saying, there's plenty of room to be dissatisfied on the forum without being a burden to those who come here for enjoyment.


I agree, but I'd also say that there's only so much room in these particular forums to offer suggestions for improvement. Again back to people being unable to distinguish between specific, isolated concepts and entire games, the vast majority of concepts that are brought up to add/improve the game are pulled directly from FFXI in one way or another or they're flamed for being from WoW. For me personally, I wouldn't want to see SE focusing on adding FFXI style quests because it would take too long. It would take too much development time and money to do cutesy little cutscenes and dialogue and all that for what is ultimately a quest line comprised of two hours of running and maybe a fight or two. That's how I felt about a lot of the class quests. I didn't mind them so much for the cutscenes because that's what you'd expect from an FF title but not every quest has to have them. And SE is not in a position to be sacrificing volume of content for fluff. I don't need a two minute cutscene for a quest that is going to ask me to run to a tree and run back. That's not content. That's fluff. If I could experience the quest on youtube for all the interaction it requires from the player, it's not the kind of content SE needs to be focusing on.

SE needs to be focusing on things that require people to play the game and not just run around watching cutscenes. They need to be focusing on "on-demand" content that people can be getting involved in whenever they want, not events that require you to be in a certain place at a certain time. There has to be some basic underpinning system in the game that serves as the bread and butter that eliminates the need for generic grinding and can serve as entertaining filler between events, and the levequest system is not it. The whole levequest system in general turned out to be such a tragic disappointment on so many levels for so many people that my hope is that SE will gradually move away from it to the point where levequests themselves become the event that you from time to time because you want to, not because that's all there really is to do.
#33AuryanofAsura, Posted: Jan 10 2011 at 2:41 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) this game sucks. they can barely get people to play for free
#34 Jan 10 2011 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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AuryanofAsura wrote:
this game sucks. they can barely get people to play for free



thanks for an example of the type of person who really doesnt help anything here and just looks stupid in the process :)

This is what I was talking about by unhelpful hating trolls
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#35 Jan 10 2011 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.

Edited, Jan 10th 2011 4:05pm by RufuSwho
#36 Jan 10 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I defend the aspects of the game that deserve to be defended, SE's valiant effort at making the market wards a suitable replacement for an AH, for starters. It's almost there, but they've still gt work to do.
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#37 Jan 10 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Jefro420 wrote:
I defend the aspects of the game that deserve to be defended, SE's valiant effort at making the market wards a suitable replacement for an AH, for starters. It's almost there, but they've still gt work to do.

My topic was on things that don't need to be defended.

I agree, market ward updates good thing.
What it needs to be complete is to give us a way to find items placed in the wrong wards. It tells us they are for sale but show 0 in stock >.>
They fix that, I don't need an AH.


Complaints more like people who valiantly defend the new SP system. 100 SP a kill to 200 for 100,000 SP = 1000 kills for one level. Lets look at this another way - You hit fatigue at about 80,000 SP, which means SE thinks it should take you more than 8 hours to gain 1 level because they expect casual players should not generally hit fatigue. Two hours a day, 4 days a week for one level makes people leave the game if played at the pace SE wants.

That's just a time sink to get them more time to prep content, it's not good gameplay. The 100-200 exp a kill worked in FFXI because it only took 44,000 to level at level 75, we take 100,000 to level at 49 only getting 200 exp a kill in a group post level 31 is near impossible.

SE has done some good updates, but teh things that get fixed first are the things people complained about. People hated the random SP system, it got fixed with this new system, only they ended up turning the game into Final Doblyn 14. White knighting things that don't need to be defended get them put lower on the priority list. Make sense?
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#38 Jan 10 2011 at 4:25 PM Rating: Decent
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845 posts
Good news once SE starts charging to play the game the 500 english speaking people who are willing to pay to play it can enjoy the game and forums troll free. Well maybe there may be a few people who still complain about the game and pay for it and then there may be the few that occasionally stop by to see if the game has become fun. Then when they find out the game still doesnt qualify as fun to them they will make a post or 2 and it will get sub defaulted really fast and they can go away for a few months and then rinse and repeat. The number of people coming to this forum is leveling off at around 200-400 recent visitors a day(down from over 1k around release). So the actual amount of people not happy with the game who come to this forum is at an all time low! This is great news for people who like positive posts.
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#39 Jan 10 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eadieni wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
I defend the aspects of the game that deserve to be defended, SE's valiant effort at making the market wards a suitable replacement for an AH, for starters. It's almost there, but they've still gt work to do.

My topic was on things that don't need to be defended.

I agree, market ward updates good thing.
What it needs to be complete is to give us a way to find items placed in the wrong wards. It tells us they are for sale but show 0 in stock >.>
They fix that, I don't need an AH.


Complaints more like people who valiantly defend the new SP system. 100 SP a kill to 200 for 100,000 SP = 1000 kills for one level. Lets look at this another way - You hit fatigue at about 80,000 SP, which means SE thinks it should take you more than 8 hours to gain 1 level because they expect casual players should not generally hit fatigue. Two hours a day, 4 days a week for one level makes people leave the game if played at the pace SE wants.

That's just a time sink to get them more time to prep content, it's not good gameplay. The 100-200 exp a kill worked in FFXI because it only took 44,000 to level at level 75, we take 100,000 to level at 49 only getting 200 exp a kill in a group post level 31 is near impossible.

SE has done some good updates, but teh things that get fixed first are the things people complained about. People hated the random SP system, it got fixed with this new system, only they ended up turning the game into Final Doblyn 14. White knighting things that don't need to be defended get them put lower on the priority list. Make sense?


Any halfway decent company isn't going to base it's priorities on any of the vocal minorities. We can assume SE is halfway decent (although recent Final Fantasy releases may put that into question). Therefore it's pretty obvious these "White Knights" have little if any impact on SE's priorities with FFXIV. You can rest assured that the SP system, and other low-points, will be worked on regardless if some random dude on an unofficial fansite thinks it's perfect as is.
#40 Jan 10 2011 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
45 posts
Eadieni wrote:
I've seen a few users on this forum trying to be a white knight and defend this game as the best game ever and greatest creation since sliced bread.

I just wanted to point out that doing this in the games own forums is horrible and 100% of the time leads to a sh*tty game. It makes devs think your content with broken systems, like the SP system (come on 100 sp a kill for 100,000 tnl??)

I'll cite some examples:
Vanguard: Saga of Heroes - at first it was all trolling with the state of the game. Then, the trolls went away to find something better. The white knights remained, in a state of denial and now nobody gives a sh*t about the game and its <1000 players (it only has one server now!)

Tabula Rasa - Trolls went away due to lack of content and dev feedback, flamed the game to everyone who didn't play it, white knights posted on forums how much they loved it, game didn't change, and is now shut down.

Age of Conan - The trolls never went away, and a year later it became a fun and enjoyable game.

Final Fantasy XI - The FF brand kept players of all kinds and eventually became the best MMO of all time. STFU if you disagree :D (yes UO was great but come on!)


Some forum users (and you know who you are) who defend every aspect of the game as it is always leads to developers being content with things and only making minor changes. Devs see a major difference between "Oh the game is fantastic, little buggy in places but overall amazing keep up the good work!" and "This game is horrendous, I want to like it but I can't enter the market wards without crashing, I feel like theres nothing to do when not grinding and the whole game feels like an empty void that I don't want to pay for".

Just a thought >.>


Yes it's true white knighting does not help this game, nor will it ever help this game in the long run. If everyone blindly accepted the game when it came out like a bunch of retarded fanboys would, Squeenix would not be asking the changes they're making now. People would be paying $12.99+ a month for garbage. Criticism is what is getting the developers to get off their lazy bums and turn this half-finished game into a real mmorpg. Of course, stupid troll posts like FFXIV SUX and FF14 STANDS FOR F***ING FAIL 14 won't help matters one bit either. Somewhere in between these two groups of idiots is a group of real critics who want FF14 to get better and become a repsectable mmorpg.
#41 Jan 10 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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So tired of the phrase "white knighting"... starting to wish that editorial had used some different phrasing. It's beginning to burn my ears more than "trolls" and "carebears".
#42 Jan 10 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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763 posts
Apparently FFXIV forums are the only place to freely come and express your disgust or enthusiasm for the game. So I'll come here! XD

I'll just add to the misery to these forums. "Oh no, FFXIV is gonna die!" "FFXIV is awesome! ::jump up and down with gigglies and lollipops!::

Why don't we all here on the forums, either

1) Get lost if you don't play the game. You're a waste of database space.

2) If you do play the game, quit complaining if you can't find anything good to say about the game, or just simply QUIT THE GAME. Or

3) If you do play the game and enjoy it, provide feedback to what your ideas of improving the game even more, would be.

Just sayin. ::shrug::
#43 Jan 10 2011 at 6:32 PM Rating: Good
45 posts
Sir mokatu wrote:
Apparently FFXIV forums are the only place to freely come and express your disgust or enthusiasm for the game. So I'll come here! XD

I'll just add to the misery to these forums. "Oh no, FFXIV is gonna die!" "FFXIV is awesome! ::jump up and down with gigglies and lollipops!::

Why don't we all here on the forums, either

1) Get lost if you don't play the game. You're a waste of database space.

2) If you do play the game, quit complaining if you can't find anything good to say about the game, or just simply QUIT THE GAME. Or

3) If you do play the game and enjoy it, provide feedback to what your ideas of improving the game even more, would be.

Just sayin. ::shrug::


So basically, only provide feedback if you enjoy the game...

Right? lol
#44 Jan 10 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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395 posts
SasukeYuchiha wrote:
Sir mokatu wrote:
Apparently FFXIV forums are the only place to freely come and express your disgust or enthusiasm for the game. So I'll come here! XD

I'll just add to the misery to these forums. "Oh no, FFXIV is gonna die!" "FFXIV is awesome! ::jump up and down with gigglies and lollipops!::

Why don't we all here on the forums, either

1) Get lost if you don't play the game. You're a waste of database space.

2) If you do play the game, quit complaining if you can't find anything good to say about the game, or just simply QUIT THE GAME. Or

3) If you do play the game and enjoy it, provide feedback to what your ideas of improving the game even more, would be.

Just sayin. ::shrug::


So basically, only provide feedback if you enjoy the game...

Right? lol

Apparently they want everyone who don't enjoy the game to quit.

That will leave it with what ... 20 players?

We complain because we want it fixed not cuz we want to go back to wow.
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#45 Jan 10 2011 at 7:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I agree with you somewhat but in the end everyones entitled to their own opinions. IMO if they dont add something to really catch my attention before they start charging im probably going to quit. Im not jumping to play another MMO or anything, im just sincerely losing interest in a game that I thought would bring me back into gaming.
#46 Jan 10 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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435 posts
Aurelius wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
OP is one of those idiots who'd rather kill the blue con critter ad nauseam for sake of ease then go find a yellow or orange con to level up on. If you are getting 100 sp a critter its you who are doing something wrong. Stop blaming the game for your own laziness.


The only difference in terms of challenge between a blue mob and a yellow/orange mob is...well, there's really not much difference. It just takes longer to kill higher ranked mobs. Why spend 200% of the time for 140% of the SP? It doesn't take long for SP gain over time from facerolling blue con mobs to oustrip the SP gain over time from facerolling yellow/orange mobs. It has nothing to do with challenge or effort. Challenge would be grinding on mobs 6-9 ranks above you, and the SP gains for doing so would be sub-par. I think that's the heart of the criticism right now is that you're not rewarded for investing the "effort" (aka time) to up the risk.


I think you stand a better chance of dying when fighting yellow-orange mobs because their TP attacks typically pack enough of a punch to put you in danger if you're not fast on the heal button.

For that reason, I just wish they were worth more SP because I prefer challenging fights to steamrolls...

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#47 Jan 10 2011 at 8:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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TheRealDestian wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
thehellfire wrote:
OP is one of those idiots who'd rather kill the blue con critter ad nauseam for sake of ease then go find a yellow or orange con to level up on. If you are getting 100 sp a critter its you who are doing something wrong. Stop blaming the game for your own laziness.


The only difference in terms of challenge between a blue mob and a yellow/orange mob is...well, there's really not much difference. It just takes longer to kill higher ranked mobs. Why spend 200% of the time for 140% of the SP? It doesn't take long for SP gain over time from facerolling blue con mobs to oustrip the SP gain over time from facerolling yellow/orange mobs. It has nothing to do with challenge or effort. Challenge would be grinding on mobs 6-9 ranks above you, and the SP gains for doing so would be sub-par. I think that's the heart of the criticism right now is that you're not rewarded for investing the "effort" (aka time) to up the risk.


I think you stand a better chance of dying when fighting yellow-orange mobs because their TP attacks typically pack enough of a punch to put you in danger if you're not fast on the heal button.

For that reason, I just wish they were worth more SP because I prefer challenging fights to steamrolls...



Nothing about yellow/orange mobs comes down to heavy duty high risk decision making. You smack it/nuke it or you heal yourself. Saying that they're challenging only applies in a relativistic context. Yellow/orange mobs are more challenging than blue mobs. Blue mobs represent a trivial challenge, so a slightly more than trivial challenge is still more challenging than blue mobs. With yellow/orange mobs, you tend to heal yourself more than you would a blue mob, but the risk associated with being extremely sloppy doesn't define the challenge. Having to pay reasonable attention (yellow/orange mobs) instead of watching TV while triggering your abilities in pseudo-random fashion (blue mobs) doesn't mean yellow/orange mobs are challenging. It means blue mobs are easy to the point of being trivial.

I'm splitting hairs here when I really agree with you, but not from the point of view that yellow/orange mobs are particularly challenging but because blue mobs are dull. When the most thought inducing process of fighting blue mobs is turning your attention back to the screen between fights so you can scope out your next target, it's not even entertaining. If it was entertaining, I'd be paying attention. Yellow/orange mobs require that I keep an eye on things. Fighting blue mobs almost feels like botting for the amount of attention it requires, but actually playing the game in a way that I find entertaining enough to keep an eye on it is less rewarding?

If I'm watching TV or a movie while I'm playing the game, the game isn't entertaining me. And if the game isn't entertaining me, how much of a game is it, really?
#48 Jan 10 2011 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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I agree that, in addition to XP chains, the lack of better SP for killing harder mobs is a put off. I too would rather have a long fight with chance of death if you ***** up and a good reward of xp/sp than killing blues fast like I do now (since its way more efficient).
#49 Jan 10 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir mokatu wrote:
Apparently FFXIV forums are the only place to freely come and express your disgust or enthusiasm for the game. So I'll come here! XD

I'll just add to the misery to these forums. "Oh no, FFXIV is gonna die!" "FFXIV is awesome! ::jump up and down with gigglies and lollipops!::

Why don't we all here on the forums, either

1) Get lost if you don't play the game. You're a waste of database space.

2) If you do play the game, quit complaining if you can't find anything good to say about the game, or just simply QUIT THE GAME. Or

3) If you do play the game and enjoy it, provide feedback to what your ideas of improving the game even more, would be.

Just sayin. ::shrug::


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/constructive+criticism

Just sayin. ::shrug::
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#50 Jan 10 2011 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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763 posts
I think people NOT coming here to *****, whine, and complain USEFUL information. Waiting for FFXIV to become its best? GEEZUZ! Do you realize how long this is gonna take to clean up the mess? It's getting towards the middle of January with pratically no word or update to the game. Everything has been put to halt, and the new devs are obviously clueless as to what to do to fix it. Asking us what will make the game better.

Perhaps I sympathize with the dev's side of things. Perhaps they ARE working behind the scenes on a plan that they will implement, and **** it, it better be GOOD. We don't need another update to come that will leave even more unfinished business. I just fear this is what is going to happen when they try to improve FFXIV. Fix many things, break other things.... then have the audacity to threaten to ban us for using the ability or item "until we resolve the issue" which was BS since it was SE's fault and not ours. I site: Ninja Ability YONIN in FFXI. The way they handled that was REALLY REALLY bad. and I'm not even a Ninja!

I just don't know where I stand with this game, and until I do, I just won't play. I'll make the decision to play when SE makes their next chess move to improve their game first. SE: You're on notice, and it's YOUR move.
#51 Jan 11 2011 at 12:18 AM Rating: Good
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They are not white knights, or defenders, they are hypocrite's.

Remember from release date up to before SE came out and said "Sorry our bad, this game sucks!" Anybody that dared to question this game was faced with "Oh go back to wow, you dont know what a good game is, this is the greatest game developed ever, this game is not for scrubs that like to faceroll, or have their hands held and my personal favorite "This game will turn into the greatest MMO ever created it has the POTENTIAL XD!" Remember the reviews ? and all the theories the fanboy's came up with ? Lmao! my personal favorite "Oh they dont know wtf they are talking about they only played up to lvl 10-15, every body knows the game is fun at lvl 45+"

Then once SE came out and admitted to what everybody else had said was true, the fanboy's gave little ground, the game was still the greatest thing to hit the market, to them it was GROUND BREAKING!

Now SE came out and said hey "What if we go NGE?" and now they are all for it XD!



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