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Partying: It doesn't have to be a clusterf#*kFollow

#1 Jan 11 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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This post is not about the best way to earn SP. It is about effectively partying. Although once the concepts are grasped you will find that you can SP just as easy, if not faster, on other mobs besides cobs and dobs in a group party.

Introduction

I keep finding my self fighting in parties that have absolutly no strategy or concept of hate control. Every party just turns into a clusterf@*k with melee chasing the mobs back and forth all over the place or the mages and dps dying within the first ten second of a decent fight. It seems players have forgotten partying basics from FFXI or RPGs in general. So in anguish, and disgust, I wrote this hopefully helpful guide.

Since day one SE has stated that their main goal is character customization. But that does not mean the classes do not have their pre-defined roles. Because without pre-defined roles parties would be even more of a mess. With this in mind they have given most classes the ability to play multiple roles. Unfortunately poor understanding of game dynamics, party dynamics, class roles and class abilities has lead to many players trying to fill multiple roles at one time.

This has lead to many players being ineffective in multiple roles as opposed to being effective at one. So throughout this guide keep in mind customization and more importantly Specialization. So lets look at a few things, before even starting to build a party, and try to understand what SE has given us to work with.



*I will continue to add to and modify this guide based on player contribution and change or discovery of new in-game mechanics


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 2:50pm by hungerforce

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Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:58pm by hungerforce
#2 Jan 11 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I) Classes: Knowing and Understanding Your Role



A) The defined classes and their roles
  • Gladiator: Obviously meant as a tank role since it is the only melee capable of using a shield, but with the right build can be an off-dps.
  • Pugalist: DPS or support tank, but can easily be converted to an off-tank with the right build.
  • Marauder: DPS or support tank, but can easily be converted to an off-tank with the right build. Marauder is extremely versatile and also important in hate control, especially in group mob fights. This is why they have the ablity to wear +STR, +VIT or +DEX gear.
  • Lancer: DPS.
  • Archer: DPS and PULLER.
  • Thaumaturge: Enfeeble, debuff and support healer, but with the right build can be an off-healer if need be but not recommended.
  • Conjurer: Nuke or healer.


* Choosing a class and deciding to play one of these roles in a party requires you to understand B and C.


B) Positioning in Battle
  • Positioning, specifically distance, plays a huge part in effectively fulfilling your role in a party. Fortunately SE has provided us with {an image} outlining player positioning and distance. Your position in battle will help determine your accuracy, damage output, hate management and overall flow of the battle.




C)Hate Management


Hate Management goes hand in hand along with Positioning. Hate Management is the ability to keep the mob attacking who you want it to attack(ie. the tank). It is all too often I come across a ARC or CON going damage happping at the very start of the fight with no regard towards hate management and 9/10 times they die within the first 30 seconds of battle. Pace yourself. Allow the tank and melee to build and maintain hate and keep the mob(s) in a centralized location.


Note: healers and buffers: take care when casting buffs and AoE cures. An AoE buff during battle will get you killed guaranteed. Try to only use AoE cures only in emergencies or after a battle. An AoE cure will gain more hate than a single cure. The reason being the more point you return to a dmaged player the more hate a healer will recieve.



For example lets say we have this damaged player setup:
  • GLD - 500/1200HP
  • PUG - 800/1200HP
  • ARC - 900/1000HP


If you were to perform an AoE cure that is 500HP worth of unessesary hate you have just cured. Where as if you had just cured the GLD, PUG could have then healed himself with Second Wind(helping maintain hate on melee) and ARC wouldnt have to worry if he/she was positioned correctly. Remember other classes have their own healing abilities! Let them use those abilities first to gain hate.

The use of use unessesary AoE also applies to damage dealers, especially when fighting single mobs. If fighting only one mob there should be no need to use an AoE (at least one with massive range) on the target. If it does become necessary make sure you are not in danger of any adds and if you are pull the mob away from potential adds at the beginning of the fight.



D)Stamina Management


Stamina Management goes hand in hand along with Hate Management is the ability to keep attacking the mob at a continuous pace. Having no stamina means you're spending time doing nothing in battle. Pace you're self. Use your skills at a rate that allows you to be an effective and constant contributor to the fight.

Yes its nice to be able to exhaust your stamina and do a huge burst of damage but then that leaves you standing there for a few seconds picking your nose and not contributing. If you find yourself continuously running out of Stamina then more than likely you are also constantly pulling hate away from the tank because you're blowing through your abilities and doing more damage or curing more than you should before melee have established hate.

PACE YOURSELF and you'll be a much more effective member of your party.


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 2:53pm by hungerforce

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 2:55pm by hungerforce

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Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:18pm by hungerforce
#3 Jan 11 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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II) Building: Customization and Specialization

Now that you know how to assume your role lets learn how to build a character based on that role.
When I refer to build, or building, I am referring to point allotment and skill choices. This is where players choose thier class role or specialization.



A) Stat point allotment


Right now the average and/or new player's first reaction to point allotment is to put all of their points into the stat that their class is most dependent on. This makes for a thousand Marauders and Lancers with 100 STR, 100 DEX and only 20 VIT and 20 MND or Gladiators with no STR or Mage classes with no VIT.

Every player should first {read this wiki article} on stat points. Everyon shold understand what they do and their caps. YES, stat points have caps but it is based on rank. Many players fail to realize this and continue to pump points into stats that can no longer help them out at their rank.

It hard to be an effective DPS, NUKE or HEAL if you're dead because you got hate and died within one hit because you have no points in and defense increasing stats. At that point you're useless to the party.

It is also hard to be an effective tank if you can't do enough damage to increase your enmity/hate along side your enmity/hate increasing abilities.

So the key to being an efective player is balance. Starting out with a balanced point allotment allows a player to effectively choose their desired class and play that classes role(s) to its fullest potential.

DoctorMog explains the balanced point alllotment concept very well in his replies to {this topic} and in {this video} he made.

If done properly in combination with the guild bought stat swapping traits, choosing to play a balanced build will allow players to swap classes and class roles with minimal effort and very few point reassignments.

Trust me when I say that starting with a balanced base build is the best way to go.



B) Elemental point Allotment


Build your characters elemental point allotment around the mobs you'll be fighting for the next few hours. If you'll be fighting a lot of Ice Elementals then EVERYONE in party should have their points leaning towards ICE for resistance and FIRE for damage. {See this image to better understand elemetal weakness and resistance}. Every monster has an elemental affinity.

If you've built your character based on a balanced build this should only take one or two point allotments.



C) Ability/Skill Choice


Obviously pick and choose abilities/skills/traits from the pool that will help you play your role effectively. A GLD does not need to be able to cast blizzard.


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:03pm by hungerforce

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:04pm by hungerforce

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:08pm by hungerforce
#4 Jan 11 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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III) Gear: What to wear, and most importantly, what not to wear


Wear gear at or below your current rank and in support of your class and role. Period. Going above your rank only hinders the party as far as your effectiveness and not to mention yourself financially.

You're not as effective if you have impaired stats or have to stop and get your gear repaired every 45min. I fyou want to wear r50 gear at r30 while soloing go ahead but please dont punish others during party play by doing so.



IV) Partying: The Well Oiled Machine


The basic party setup should contain 5 roles.

TANK, DPS, SUPPORT DPS AND/OR TANK,HEAL,NUKE

Partying is best done with players within a 5 level cap radius. (ie if you're level 30 only party with people 25-35, but if you have a level 35 in the party don't invite anyone below 30)

Before the party starts fighting please be sure to communicate with your party as to figure out what you will be fighting, any battle regimens you will be doing and to determine if any role swinging (changing of point allotment) may need to be done.



A) Grind Party Dynamics:


Most effective with only around 5ish members, as grind parties usually only fight one mob at a time. Anything more would be over kill. CAREFUL WITH AoE DAMAGE as you're only fighting one mob and dont want adds.



B) Levequest Party Dynamics


Most effective with 15 members and levequest difficulty pumped up to 5. Levequest mobs often come in groups but usually no more than 3. If you build your party based on the above setup but times it by 3(ie 3 tanks, 3 healers, 3 dps) then you will have absolutely no problem as each sub party can take a mob during the fight.

This is why SE has given us the ability to mark multiple mobs with multiple symbols. To easily establish who fights what.

Often times I see 15 man parties all attack one mob while the other 2+ mobs just wreak havoc on the healers and other squishies. By seperating into "sub parties" you're ensuring hate is well managed and everyone stays alive.

AVOID AOE CURES and DAMAGE at the beginning of fights as you do not want 3 mobs starting to attack you.

Also if you have the propper set up avoid AoE hate control abilities unless all **** has broken loose and you need to regain control and fast.

A very good tactic for this type of party setup and fight is to circle the mobs. With tanks/melee surrounding the mobs in a circle in an effort to contain hate. Then the slightly ranged melee surrounding the tanks in an outer circle, followed by mages and then followed by archers. This circle within a circle technique gives the mob a second line of defence to pass through before altering its target (ie PUG taunting before the mob can reach the mages during a hate struggle). This also allows for containment of AoE damage as well. For if any mob enters the mages circle you know not to use AoE.


Now I know there are times when there are more than 3 mobs but those require specialized tactics.



C) Behest Party Dynamics


This is and always will be a clusterf@*k battle until SE starts upping the difficly of behest forcing players to adhere to their roles.




D) Notorious Monster Party Dynamics


I wont get into NM parties as each individual NM requires specialized tactics.



Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:07pm by hungerforce
#5 Jan 11 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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V)Battle: Make it Flow
There should be a certain flow or structure to each battle to maximize efficiency.

  • Mages buff pre fight.
  • A melee with ranged attack or an ARC should pull mobs to a safe location for fighting.
  • Once the mob is withing range the tank should provoke and start gaining hate.
  • Melee can start engaging as well.
  • Try starting with TP slowing battle regimen. You dont want an Imp one shotting your party before the damage burst can kill it.
  • Tank should perform the first necessary heal on himself.
  • Enfeebles can start being cast after melee have engaged.
  • Healer should only be performing single cures as needed.
  • Once mob is 1/4 of the way down start enfeebling battle regimens.
  • once regimens have landed and mob is at 50% go all out with massive damage regimens that end with spell damage. (it acts almost like a magic burst from ffxi)
  • If done correctly with a 15 man party, enfeebles and finishing damage can be executed within 2 regimens.
  • This should finish off the mob.


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:14pm by hungerforce

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:15pm by hungerforce
#6 Jan 11 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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VI) Misc. Tips

  • Use stunning abilities/effects to stop mob spells and TP attacksQ
  • dont return if you die mid battle! you can still recieve SP while dead, you're useless while weakened so might as well lay there and recieve the SP you'll miss for returning.
  • Pace yourself! Remember to stay within your stamina limits!
  • Care with AoE! Don't get yourself unesseceraly killed!
  • Macros! Learn to use them they will make you a better, faster and more efficient player and make your playing experience much better. Lodestone actually provides a good macro guide.
  • Battle regimens! Learn to use these as well as they can result in massive damage, reduce magic and physical defence of a mob and delay a mobs one shot attacks. I've seen damage get up into the thousands on a battle regimen. Lodestone provides a good battle regimen guide as well. Its not broken, players just dont understand them.
  • Battle Regimens can only be stacked/performed with normal attacks(heavy swing), magic attacks(phantom dart), weapon skills and magic spells. if you're unable to get your chosen skill to show up in the regimen list then you are picking a skill that can not stack.
  • A battle regimen will be delayed until all participating members have the required stamina to perform the chosen actions. SO PACE YOURSELF TO ENSURE YOU HAVE STAMINA.
  • Abandoning a leve on purpose will allow you to redo it next reset... keep this in mind with leves that give great sp.
  • Joining a behest with a job far above the behests level will result in more mobs when the behest starts. Just dont change your job until after the behest starts. More mobs = more sp. Try this on a lvl 1-10 camp solo.
  • Only attack mobs with red names! attacking adds with white names will not give SP
  • DO NOT USE a weapon skill on Djiggas, it will cause them to use their AoE
  • Most of the heavy hitting TP moves and spells that mobs have can be countered, stopped or even avoided! just look at your skills and spells!
  • Get an ACTIVE linkshell!! I cannot stress this enough. The game because a completely different experience! Gear and mats become easier to get and levequesting and grinding parties take off like crazy! we grind leves, behest and single mobs every night for anywhere between 20-40k sp! depends how long we can go.


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:15pm by hungerforce

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#7 Jan 11 2011 at 2:27 PM Rating: Default
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That's nice and all but none of it matters.

Let's go through the scenarios where group tactics are required:

1) A deep red mob far above the level of anyone in the group. Nobody kills these because it's a waste of time.

2) A deep red mob in a guildleve. These will come grouped and hit extremely hard relative to their HP. You have no crowd control, so you will die in short order regardless of what you do. The only solution is to reduce leve difficulty, which together with the relatively low HP of leve mobs means everything will die in less than 10 seconds and, once again, none of this matters.

3) You're in an end game LS killing NMs, in which case you won't need guides like this.


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:28pm by Omena
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#8 Jan 11 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know about you but my LS is always doing Leves on 5 stars and we often grind on mobs. If done with the proper builds and done with some strategy it doesn't take long for these fights to finish. But even if mobs are just red this should be a good strategy to use because fights will go much fast then just everyone running around chasing the mob and then having to wait for weakened players after they've died



Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:33pm by hungerforce
#9 Jan 11 2011 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
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Don't need this kind of dynamism for cobsndobs, I'm afraid.

Teamwork works well for NMs, though.
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#10 Jan 11 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Did you guys even read this? I'm not just discussing grind parties. I'm discussing leve and NM parties as well. Its a GENERAL party guide.

By the way you do not have to be limited to cobs and dobs. I don't know about you but that gets boring, I like the fun dynamic challenge from real parties fighting real mobs. I've grinded on plenty of other mobs with 5 man parties getting the same, sometimes better, sp then cobs and dobs.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:53pm by hungerforce
#11 Jan 11 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
That's nice and all but none of it matters.

Let's go through the scenarios where group tactics are required:

1) A deep red mob far above the level of anyone in the group. Nobody kills these because it's a waste of time.

2) A deep red mob in a guildleve. These will come grouped and hit extremely hard relative to their HP. You have no crowd control, so you will die in short order regardless of what you do. The only solution is to reduce leve difficulty, which together with the relatively low HP of leve mobs means everything will die in less than 10 seconds and, once again, none of this matters.

3) You're in an end game LS killing NMs, in which case you won't need guides like this.


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:28pm by Omena

Wow! srsly? I can't believe that the first reply to this post was so virulently negative. What the **** happened to you Charlie Brown? Did someone put a rock in your Trick or Treat bag? You might think that there is no real need for party mechanics but that doesn't take away from the validity of the OP. There will soon be a need for these mechanics, especially in light of the fact that the FFXI team is now handling the Battle System, therefore this is a very useful and well thought out guide. I am personally getting to the point where I am going to be fighting NM's soon. To your point, I already am well aware of the party mechanics outilned in the guide, but taht doesn't mean that other people are. I just don't understand why someone would react so viscerally to a guide that is only meant to help other people.
P.S. to the OP, it is a great guide and hopefully it will better prepare people for the future of this game.
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#12 Jan 11 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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My LS and I use these mechanics NOW. Theres is no need to not use them. There is no need to lower difficulty on leves. We fight red-darkreds all the time. The mechanics are there to fight harder things than cobs and dobs with GREAT ease. Players just don't understand those mechanics.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:03pm by hungerforce
#13 Jan 11 2011 at 2:59 PM Rating: Good
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It is a good guide, especially for when SE does expand more when tactics will be played out, also keep in mind they're planning to further separate the classes so they're more unique outside of the crossclass skilling.

moemoe wrote:

Wow! srsly? I can't believe that the first reply to this post was so virulently negative.


It's FFXIV, people are negative about it out of impulse.
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#14 Jan 11 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Fighting moles and mongrels on 5-stars is such a great idea. /sarcasm

Its cool to fight things on 5-stars but the SP gain really does not outweigh the increased time and risk it takes to kill mobs.

That being said. You've done a great job organizing this info. I'm sure you'll find as you level up that much of this info is slightly off. Thanks for putting time into this.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:08pm by Sigmakan
#15 Jan 11 2011 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
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Thumbs up!

I like the stamina part... WAY WAY WAAAY too many people spam, spam, spam...taking the hate right off the chests of GLADS.

PEOPLE...ease off the crack...lol jk

But really though, keep your cool and slow down, MOBs aren't in short supply.

I play a tank to ...well tank not to have some pug taunt off me or to have some MRD spamming fool take the hate and die. Or, to have a THM or CON take the hate from having his/her own nuke fest and end up dieing.


LET THE GLADs heal first few times!!! Have we forgotten FFXI!?!

It seems we REALLY need guides like this. It seems partying has gone right back into the stone ages from FFXI. It's all the same concept, just greedy, impatient, and snob kiddies.

Chow

Oh yea, and most time I'm partying I pray I can atleast get a couple Phalanx's off before some fool tries to steal hate. That way I know nothing can take the mob off me.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:17pm by SplatterPattern
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#16 Jan 11 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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hungerforce wrote:
My LS and I use these mechanics NOW. Theres is no need to not use them. There is no need to lower difficulty on leves. We fight red-darkreds all the time. The mechanics are there to fight harder things than cobs and dobs with GREAT ease. Players just don't understand those mechanics.

Correction:

You fight dark red groups (this is why the group con system is misleading and useless). If each and every mob in the leve were 15-20 ranks above the average level of the group, they would literally 1-3 shot everyone, even the tanks. That means you need a separate tank for each mob (along with plenty of healers) or the tank dies in one attack round. This is the nature of levemobs: inflated attack power, low HP. The change from durable mobs with reasonable attack power to fragile glass cannons happened some time during beta and I can still only scratch my head at the decision to do so.

Fighting deep red non-leve mobs is not worth it because the SP does not scale up enough to compensate for the increased time to kill, let alone risk of death. Rank determines your power relative to a target too heavily in this game, so a mob 10 ranks above you will automatically take something like 70% less damage than its defensive stats would normally allow, which is absurd. The same goes for attack power as well. You know how those goobbues and whatnot used to one shot you for 2.5k+ damage? Yeah, they don't actually hit that hard. It's the rank advantage that multiplies their damage to the stratosphere.





Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:22pm by Omena
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#17 Jan 11 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Fighting moles and mongrels on 5-stars is such a great idea. /sarcasm

Its cool to fight things on 5-stars but the SP gain really does not outweigh the increased time and risk it takes to kill mobs.

That being said. You've done a great job organizing this info. I'm sure you'll find as you level up that much of this info is slightly off. Thanks for putting time into this.


5 starring and leve linking with a well orgnized party, my ls is able to hit 400+ SP on mobs no problem. and the fights DO NOT take a long time.

Also if something is off please contribute and I will change it.
#18 Jan 11 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
my ls is able to hit 400+ SP on mobs no problem.


I'd really love to get some data of this, screenshots or something similar.

It's not that I don't believe you, but it's the internet, if you know what I mean.

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#19 Jan 11 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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hungerforce wrote:

5 starring and leve linking with a well orgnized party, my ls is able to hit 400+ SP on mobs no problem. and the fights DO NOT take a long time.

Also if something is off please contribute and I will change it.


We get 400+ as well and do only 2/3 star and the fights are much quicker and zero-risk. These are R40 elves by the way.

The reason I bring up mongrels and hedgemoles is that they can be very very cheap. A 5-stars, hedgemoles are death-machines and will likely one shot all your mages. %-star mongrel fights will last forever as they will continue to heal themselves for large chunks of health.

I was trying to avoid the whole "you're only rank30" argument in my previous post, but . . . you're only rank30. I think you'll find overtime that doing leves at a lower star level is actually much better SP/hr.

I realize your post was not entirely about getting the best SP/hr, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

Also, provoke/taunt dont seem to work as one would think. They dont appear to really generate much hate, instead it seems they temporarily grab the mobs attention. As such, its important to do abilities that actually generate enmity such as heavy stab, healing, etc. Tossing in vokes and taunts throughout the fight is a great way to keep the monster on you, however.
#20 Jan 11 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Sigmakan wrote:

Also, provoke/taunt dont seem to work as one would think. They dont appear to really generate much hate, instead it seems they temporarily grab the mobs attention. As such, its important to do abilities that actually generate enmity such as heavy stab, healing, etc. Tossing in vokes and taunts throughout the fight is a great way to keep the monster on you, however.

Are you sure this isn't simply an issue of using Taunt /Provoke to open the fight? The first move never generates any hate, only places you on the hate list. I think it's terrible (and, surprise, not how it worked in FFXI) but that's how it is.
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#21 Jan 11 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Have to ask - why do people say THM is not a good healer? Their conal AOE has a way better range than CON. Please excuse my ignorance but I seem to heal about as much on THM as CON (not a huge/noticeable difference) and I find it easier to get everyone while staying out of AOE range too.

Can someone explain to me why THM is not considered a good main heal?

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 1:41pm by Olorinus
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#22 Jan 11 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Sigmakan wrote:

Also, provoke/taunt dont seem to work as one would think. They dont appear to really generate much hate, instead it seems they temporarily grab the mobs attention. As such, its important to do abilities that actually generate enmity such as heavy stab, healing, etc. Tossing in vokes and taunts throughout the fight is a great way to keep the monster on you, however.

Are you sure this isn't simply an issue of using Taunt /Provoke to open the fight? The first move never generates any hate, only places you on the hate list. I think it's terrible (and, surprise, not how it worked in FFXI) but that's how it is.


Yep, you have to be on the list THEN use taunt and/or provoke.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Have to ask - why do people say THM is not a good healer? Their conal AOE has a way better range than CON. Please excuse my ignorance but I seem to heal about as much on THM as CON (not a huge/noticeable difference) and I find it easier to get everyone while staying out of AOE range too.

Can someone explain to me why THM is not considered a good main heal?

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 1:41pm by Olorinus


Laziness maybe? Ignorance to the fact THM is conal and not AoE so they see their cure wasn't hitting everyone and gave up on it? Also isn't Sacrifice halved or toned down kinda as a conjurer? It's a lot better HP restored overtime than Curing.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 1:43pm by Theonehio
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#23 Jan 11 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Omena wrote:
Sigmakan wrote:

Also, provoke/taunt dont seem to work as one would think. They dont appear to really generate much hate, instead it seems they temporarily grab the mobs attention. As such, its important to do abilities that actually generate enmity such as heavy stab, healing, etc. Tossing in vokes and taunts throughout the fight is a great way to keep the monster on you, however.

Are you sure this isn't simply an issue of using Taunt /Provoke to open the fight? The first move never generates any hate, only places you on the hate list. I think it's terrible (and, surprise, not how it worked in FFXI) but that's how it is.


Theres that issue as well. But I have noticed others being able to steal hate away from voke/taunt almost immediately with moves/abilities that arent THAT hate-crazy. I've also seen many instances where one of members will be far away and I'll voke an unclaimed mob and it will run away after that distant person.


#24 Jan 11 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Correction:

You fight dark red groups (this is why the group con system is misleading and useless). If each and every mob in the leve were 15-20 ranks above the average level of the group, they would literally 1-3 shot everyone, even the tanks. That means you need a separate tank for each mob (along with plenty of healers) or the tank dies in one attack round. This is the nature of levemobs: inflated attack power, low HP. The change from durable mobs with reasonable attack power to fragile glass cannons happened some time during beta and I can still only scratch my head at the decision to do so.

Fighting deep red non-leve mobs is not worth it because the SP does not scale up enough to compensate for the increased time to kill, let alone risk of death. Rank determines your power relative to a target too heavily in this game, so a mob 10 ranks above you will automatically take something like 70% less damage than its defensive stats would normally allow, which is absurd. The same goes for attack power as well. You know how those goobbues and whatnot used to one shot you for 2.5k+ damage? Yeah, they don't actually hit that hard. It's the rank advantage that multiplies their damage to the stratosphere.


If you read my post I recommend a separate tank for each mob.

And a big point of my post is that things don't have to take as long to kill if done correctly. Leves, yes we will fight dark red groups. But singles we can and do handle reds no problem. Without fights taking forever. I don't recommend over 5 people grinding on singles.
#25 Jan 11 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Can someone explain to me why THM is not considered a good main heal?


I don't really understand why so many classes get labeled under "support X" role either. From what I've heard MAR is a good if not best AoE tank for example.
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#26 Jan 11 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Can someone explain to me why THM is not considered a good main heal?


I don't really understand why so many classes get labeled under "support X" role either. From what I've heard MAR is a good if not best AoE tank for example.


They are probably best AoE DD, but not AoE tank. War Drum (shield AoE voke) has a much shorter cooldown than Warmongerer (Axe AoE voke)


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:46pm by Sigmakan
#27 Jan 11 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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-deleted

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 4:47pm by hungerforce
#28 Jan 11 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'd really love to get some data of this, screenshots or something similar.

It's not that I don't believe you, but it's the internet, if you know what I mean.


will do as soon as we do another run
#29 Jan 11 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
They are probably best AoE DD, but not AoE tank. War Drum (shield AoE voke) has a much shorter cooldown than Warmongerer (Axe AoE voke)


From what I've seen, those are not the only AoE/Conal skills MAR can use to get the mobs attention? Quite many skills have "cone + increased enmity" characteristic to them?
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#30 Jan 11 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
my ls is able to hit 400+ SP on mobs no problem.


I'd really love to get some data of this, screenshots or something similar.

It's not that I don't believe you, but it's the internet, if you know what I mean.




Multiple linking with guardian can get you 400-500+ sp/mob on some leves, even on 1-3 starts. I did this on a couple r30 and r40 leves. This will vary depending on group size too. You can get big numbers, but that doesn't mean it's the absoulte BEST sp/hr.
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#31 Jan 11 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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We get 400+ as well and do only 2/3 star and the fights are much quicker and zero-risk. These are R40 elves by the way.

The reason I bring up mongrels and hedgemoles is that they can be very very cheap. A 5-stars, hedgemoles are death-machines and will likely one shot all your mages. %-star mongrel fights will last forever as they will continue to heal themselves for large chunks of health.

I was trying to avoid the whole "you're only rank30" argument in my previous post, but . . . you're only rank30. I think you'll find overtime that doing leves at a lower star level is actually much better SP/hr.


your mages wont get one shotted if you use some strategy and keep hate away from them

And dont be fooled by my rank, it's not my only account/char
#32 Jan 11 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also, provoke/taunt dont seem to work as one would think. They dont appear to really generate much hate, instead it seems they temporarily grab the mobs attention. As such, its important to do abilities that actually generate enmity such as heavy stab, healing, etc. Tossing in vokes and taunts throughout the fight is a great way to keep the monster on you, however.


In my experience they work as intended a quick way to get the mobs attention while you do other things to build hate. If the rest of your party works as intended and paces themselves you'll have no problem with hate control. Please read the whole post. I cover most these replies within my posts.
#33 Jan 11 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also this thread is not about getting the best way to get SP, its about effectively partying
#34 Jan 11 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Good job - There does seem to be an issue, however. Mob selection. I have two questions:

- What mobs do we really need to do this on?
- Do those mobs give good SP/hour once all is said and done?

I would love nothing more than to be able to do a proper party grind in this game. Take a dangerous run to a sweet camp. Get the party organized (BRs, Debuffs, Food, etc...). Pull. Kill. Repeat.

They should really introduce some party zones/mobs. The introduction of Goblins and Flans was a perfect opportunity for this, but it didn't happen. Hopefully with a (not too far into the) future update we will see this style of gameplay supported better.

-Kash

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 5:07pm by Kashius
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#35 Jan 11 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
hungerforce wrote:
III) Gear: What to wear, and most importantly, what not to wear


Wear gear at or below your current rank and in support of your class and role. Period. Going above your rank only hinders the party as far as your effectiveness and not to mention yourself financially.

You're not as effective if you have impaired stats or have to stop and get your gear repaired every 45min. I fyou want to wear r50 gear at r30 while soloing go ahead but please dont punish others during party play by doing so.


While I do advocate wearing gear close to your level, if you switch somewhere in the middle of your gear tiers you get more stats on slightly over levelled gear, IE: on my Lancer at 33 my Iron Haubergeon gave more DEF, EVA, STR and DEX than my Bronze Haubergeon, and I was still four levels under ranked for it. My personal suggestion is to have both your current and next tier of gear and check every level or two which gives more stats this is easily checked just by swapping the peice in and out with something else in the gear panel and comparing the stats in the stat window. In doing so you can effectively find the best stat curve on your gear while levelling. Also level seems to have no affect on actual gear damage although I only have samples of about 200 before they took out the ability to see an actual durability number but each piece of armour took a seemingly static amount of durability loss per action on my tests although that number appears to be based on resilience.





Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:03pm by Manosuke
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#36 Jan 11 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They are probably best AoE DD, but not AoE tank. War Drum (shield AoE voke) has a much shorter cooldown than Warmongerer (Axe AoE voke)


From what I've seen, those are not the only AoE/Conal skills MAR can use to get the mobs attention? Quite many skills have "cone + increased enmity" characteristic to them?


Full Swing(conical normal attack) generates enmity but its also costs a lot of stamina and the dmg is quite low. Also, some mobs like to move around a lot even if they are targetting the same person, which makes it tricky sometimes to keep them all in conical range.

Storm's Path is a WS thats AoE and generates enmity. Other than that, there are no other AoE+Enmity moves that MRD has. They have disorient which generates enmity, but thats single target. Defender generates enmity if you remain in Steadfast, but that is harder than you think, sometimes just attacking takes you out of Steadfast because your character moves a bit.

They are good multi-mob tanks, but not sure if they are the best. 'best' is a dangerous word!
#37 Jan 11 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
They are probably best AoE DD, but not AoE tank. War Drum (shield AoE voke) has a much shorter cooldown than Warmongerer (Axe AoE voke)


From what I've seen, those are not the only AoE/Conal skills MAR can use to get the mobs attention? Quite many skills have "cone + increased enmity" characteristic to them?


...in a way...yes..but not really in general. Warmonger is an AoE taunt on a long cd. There is also Disorient which is an evasion debuff + enmity. At optimal rank 40, MRD gains Full Swing which is an frontal ae attack that has buffed enmity. Lastly to the point, MRD does get Defender, which if you stand still long enough to gain Steadfast will increase enmity on all your actions provided you don't move.*




*unless you use Enduring March first.
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#38 Jan 11 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
While I do advocate wearing gear close to your level, if you switch somewhere in the middle of your gear tiers you get more stats on slightly over levelled gear, IE: on my Lancer at 33 my Iron Haubergeon gave more DEF, EVA, STR and DEX than my Bronze Haubergeon, and I was still four levels under ranked for it. My personal suggestion is to have both your current and next tier of gear and check every level or two which gives more stats this is easily checked just by swapping the peice in and out with something else in the gear panel and comparing the stats in the stat window. In doing so you can effectively find the best stat curve on your gear while levelling.


I didn't list stat loss as the only reason to not wear gear above your level
#39 Jan 11 2011 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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hungerforce wrote:
DPS
I really wish this would stop catching on as a term for anything but a rate.

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#40 Jan 11 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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hungerforce wrote:
Quote:
We get 400+ as well and do only 2/3 star and the fights are much quicker and zero-risk. These are R40 elves by the way.

The reason I bring up mongrels and hedgemoles is that they can be very very cheap. A 5-stars, hedgemoles are death-machines and will likely one shot all your mages. %-star mongrel fights will last forever as they will continue to heal themselves for large chunks of health.

I was trying to avoid the whole "you're only rank30" argument in my previous post, but . . . you're only rank30. I think you'll find overtime that doing leves at a lower star level is actually much better SP/hr.


your mages wont get one shotted if you use some strategy and keep hate away from them



As you are aware, they do that AoE move when they come up from the ground. Sometimes they come up in random spots, but you can control that for the most part by keeping hate on the tank. This will usually give the mages enough time to run away. However, the moles occasionally glitch and do that ability as they are going into the ground. Makes things very messy! If you melees arent at full health they will probably be one-shotted as well.

Its nice to see we have a good discussion about partying mechanics. We need more of these type of topics. Obviously none of us grasp a complete picture of the 'best' way to SP/Party/Leve, but hopefully we can share some ideas/theories.


Edited, Jan 11th 2011 5:07pm by Sigmakan
#41 Jan 11 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Fighting moles and mongrels on 5-stars is such a great idea. /sarcasm


Mole aoe is avoidable if you're positioned correctly as a mage and lack the hate....and there's a way to stop the mongrel regen....

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 5:08pm by hungerforce
#42 Jan 11 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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hungerforce wrote:
Quote:
Fighting moles and mongrels on 5-stars is such a great idea. /sarcasm


There's a way to stop the mongrel regen....


You can avoid TP moves of enemies too, but sadly people still seem to not know.
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#43 Jan 11 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
hungerforce wrote:
Quote:
While I do advocate wearing gear close to your level, if you switch somewhere in the middle of your gear tiers you get more stats on slightly over levelled gear, IE: on my Lancer at 33 my Iron Haubergeon gave more DEF, EVA, STR and DEX than my Bronze Haubergeon, and I was still four levels under ranked for it. My personal suggestion is to have both your current and next tier of gear and check every level or two which gives more stats this is easily checked just by swapping the peice in and out with something else in the gear panel and comparing the stats in the stat window. In doing so you can effectively find the best stat curve on your gear while levelling.


I didn't list stat loss as the only reason to not wear gear above your level


I edited my post a bit late but I did add something addressing durability loss as well despite the small sample sizes I found I lost exactly the same durability per action on my Bronze hauby despite 20 levels difference when I was testing it. (Tested two sets of 200 at each level: crafting, repairs for single actions, and throwing javelins and daggers at crabs and running). both had exactly the same number per action every action despite 20 levels difference. This number varied between each piece of gear mind you but for that individual peice of gear it remained the same. It is also worth noting that throwing weapon use doesn't reduce the durability of your main hand weapon or shield, just armour.
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#44 Jan 11 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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hungerforce wrote:
Quote:
Fighting moles and mongrels on 5-stars is such a great idea. /sarcasm


Mole aoe is avoidable if you're positioned correctly as a mage and lack the hate....and there's a way to stop the mongrel regen....

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 5:08pm by hungerforce


And here I thought we were going to have an open and constructive discussion!
#45 Jan 11 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
my ls is able to hit 400+ SP on mobs no problem.


I'd really love to get some data of this, screenshots or something similar.

It's not that I don't believe you, but it's the internet, if you know what I mean.



With a full link, proper rank range and GA you can get 700+ per kill on leves.

If you know how to do certain ones, you can easily get 10-15k a leve.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 5:15pm by Lukky
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#46 Jan 11 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I edited my post a bit late but I did add something addressing durability loss as well despite the small sample sizes I found I lost exactly the same durability per action on my Bronze hauby despite 20 levels difference when I was testing it. (Tested two sets of 200 at each level: crafting, repairs for single actions, and throwing javelins and daggers at crabs and running). both had exactly the same number per action every action despite 20 levels difference. This number varied between each piece of gear mind you but for that individual peice of gear it remained the same. It is also worth noting that throwing weapon use doesn't reduce the durability of your main hand weapon or shield, just armour.

Thank you for your notes on durability, I will admit increased durability loss is more prevalent on over level weapons than armor. Not absent on armor just not as fast as with weapons. Also what job were you playing when testing haub durability? if you were a job that doesnt take as many hits as a full tank then i would retest.
#47 Jan 11 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Also thanks OP for the post - I think you made some good/important points - and as someone who would rather scrape out my eyes with a rusty spoon than cob/dob grind - it is good to know others out there are interested in good strategic parties
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#48 Jan 11 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
With a full link, proper rank range and GA you can get 700+ per kill on leves.

If you know how to do certain ones, you can easily get 10-15k a leve.

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 5:15pm by Lukky


Yes it is possible. There are many leves that we fail on purpose so we can redo it the next reset

There are also many that we do for 5-7k sp without linking or aspect. Sometimes its better SP to do them all individually than linking
#49 Jan 11 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
hungerforce wrote:
Quote:
I edited my post a bit late but I did add something addressing durability loss as well despite the small sample sizes I found I lost exactly the same durability per action on my Bronze hauby despite 20 levels difference when I was testing it. (Tested two sets of 200 at each level: crafting, repairs for single actions, and throwing javelins and daggers at crabs and running). both had exactly the same number per action every action despite 20 levels difference. This number varied between each piece of gear mind you but for that individual peice of gear it remained the same. It is also worth noting that throwing weapon use doesn't reduce the durability of your main hand weapon or shield, just armour.

Thank you for your notes on durability, I will admit increased durability loss is more prevalent on over level weapons than armor. Not absent on armor just not as fast as with weapons. Also what job were you playing when testing haub durability? if you were a job that doesnt take as many hits as a full tank then i would retest.

I will admit that I haven't fully tested it, as I haven't tested it against taking hits. It was too difficult to accurately test as it is difficult to take exactly one hit and lose agro or kill something. So it may work differently for incoming damage. I did the testing on the Bronze Hauby at 30 LNC and GLA 10 with the NPC bought ranged weapons, throwing a dagger/spear then running checking durability and repeating omitting any tests where I got hit. It appears to be the same for melee hits although my samples one shotting marmots are small they appear to have the exact same number as throwing a ranged weapon. For the Crafting tests I used CRP and TAN with a 10 level difference, repairing two pairs of shoes that I used on the last test to damage, I forget which shoes exactly but they were the lowest level clogs and Sheepskin Workboots I believe. I was still testing it when they changed the duarbility window to a percentage, as such I can no longer complete the testing due to the lack of accuracy, atleast not in the same manner.
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#50 Jan 11 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I think it is an excellent guide, and gameplay would improve if more of the players in game would read it. But then the people reading this thread are probably not the ones who need to read the guide. Thumbs up to hungerforce for writing it.

One thing I would add, and this is really basic, is that if aggroing multiple mob groubs, for people to attack only the mobs whose names are in red. The number of times I have been in a random behest, and all the mobs go down quick, but we have only got about a third of the SP, as so many mobs died without giving SP.
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#51 Jan 11 2011 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I have been waiting for more people to realize this. Hopefully we can reach a point where pickup parties are not just non-stop zerg-fests.
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