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So what were they doing for 6 years?Follow

#102 Jan 12 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quanta wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Not to mention most people's custom WoW UI's look something like this: http://capnbry.net/~bmayland/fi/wow/ui.jpg

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:42pm by SoumaKyou


I don't see damage meters. Clearly, this player is terrible. :P


They're on the second monitor (not pictured)
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#103 Jan 12 2011 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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I have to wonder what the heck they were thinking when they were developing FFXIV. There are so many aspects of the core design that sound bad even on paper, that I'm totally baffled how they ever made it into a finished game. FFXIV is missing fundamental MMO elements that have been around since before WoW, and it's also missing just about everything they got right with FFXI. The character models and animations are the best I've ever seen, but the rest of the game needs to be completely redone. I think it's safe to say that none of the developers were playing any other MMOs in the last 6 years....

As for the comment about all games having copy pasted content - I think FFXIV takes it to the extreme. Ever try walking through the forests of Gridania without a map? After you've hit that same river crossing in four different areas, or that exact same ramp up to the upper walkways a few times, you'd be hopelessly lost. I used to navigate zones in Everquest by landmarks and terrain alone because there were no in-game maps. I'm also pretty sure Vox and Nagafen were available as raids at launch in that game as well, but it took me until the first expansion to reach cap so I can't speak from experience. While no MMO launches completely finished, FFXIV is just lacking in every way. It's really a skeleton of an MMO-to-come with a pretty engine.

(edit: the Forests of Gridania remind of me a randomly generated .hack / dark cloud dungeon. It's the epitome of a copy pasted landscape)

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 1:02pm by Calispel
#104 Jan 12 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Most good players I know only use the mouse for looking around; nobody actually uses it to click on abilities or anything, unless those abilities are rarely used; everything else is bound to one of the keyboard keys.


This is true. Folks either use keybinds to activate abilities, or use advanced mice and bind to buttons to manage those things (I use a Razer Naga). I don't know a single person who actually uses the "clickables" for anything more than watching cooldowns.

Having said that - I agree with most about the look and feel of the general FFXI\XIV menu-driven jRPG system being superior, but the fact that WYSIWYG with FFXIV is a big put off. WoW might have a basic UI, but it's because once the players got hold of the dev kit and started modding it, Blizzard realized it was one less thing they had to worry about and they focused most of their efforts in content and job balancing, only looking at the UI to incorporate some of the better ideas the modders came up with.

Bash it all you want, but Blizzard got it right, and everyone wins. Everyone gets to have a UI that fits them perfectly, Blizzard doesn't have to spend precious development time trying to make everyone happy and comfortable with this mouse click versus that keybind, and that's the lesson that SE should take away from the whole thing.

One of their biggest mistakes was sending that Cease and Desist letter to the folks who started the Windower XIV project. I understand the reasoning behind *why* they did it, but that doesn't make their reasoning anything less than sheer paranoia. Nobody stopped playing WoW just because of a few mods, and nobody stopped playing XI because of Windower. Nobody took over WoW, and they have been sitting on the top spot for years now with no real competition in sight.

SE has to let go of a lot of their previous methods of operation to be viable in this market again.
#105 Jan 12 2011 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Not to mention most people's custom WoW UI's look something like this: http://capnbry.net/~bmayland/fi/wow/ui.jpg


rofl.
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#106 Jan 12 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Nobody stopped playing WoW just because of a few mods, and nobody stopped playing XI because of Windower. Nobody took over WoW, and they have been sitting on the top spot for years now with no real competition in sight.


Not that it's relevant to the original point, but two of the reasons I stopped playing WoW were Gearscore and "Link Achievement".

I don't disagree that a customizable, moddable UI is a -good- thing. I also think that the fact that WoW's UI is so easily moddable is a great thing, and there are a ton of mods I used with it on a regular basis. I just don't want to see FFXIV look like a copy of WoW right out of the box. If someone -else- wants every game to look exactly alike, then give them that option, but don't force me to do it.

Options are almost never a bad thing. Copying someone else and calling it done is.
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#107 Jan 12 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Not that it's relevant to the original point, but two of the reasons I stopped playing WoW were Gearscore and "Link Achievement".

Yes! This!! Exactly!

Plus the whole... people thinking they were good because they could grind the first 4 bosses of ICC for full Tier 10, and people thinking they were good at PVP because they got carried by a Mage+Rogue in 3's to 2200 for Glad gear within a month. Tier gear used to mean something. PVP used to mean something. WoW used to be good. Now it's a place for 13 year olds to get their easy loot and spam trade chat about how they're the best while they wait for LFD queue.
#108 Jan 12 2011 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with Mikhalia.

The major reason why I don't want to use user made add-ons is because they look ugly.
I really like the style XIV UI has it reminds me of IX.
Throw in one coder graphics widget and the cohesiveness is ruined.
And no offense but I'd rather play a game SE made. If I made a painting I wouldn't want a buyer to customize it with some ugly "corrections".
#109 Jan 12 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I don't disagree that a customizable, moddable UI is a -good- thing. I also think that the fact that WoW's UI is so easily moddable is a great thing, and there are a ton of mods I used with it on a regular basis. I just don't want to see FFXIV look like a copy of WoW right out of the box. If someone -else- wants every game to look exactly alike, then give them that option, but don't force me to do it.


As far as I can tell, the UI debate isn't a question of form--I mean, FFXIV has an action bar, it has a minimap, it has "unit frames", it has an in-game map...it has a lot of things you'd expect to find in any MMO.

What it lacks, last time I played, was similar functionality to these elements in other games, and this is what's important. There's no drag-and-drop functionality: not for the action bar, not for the inventory, not for the paperdoll, not for anything. There are no hotkeys for your action bar. Every sub-window has to be accessed from the main menu: inventory, paperdoll, abilities, stats, quests, and on and on. Basically, it's a console interface implemented on what is currently a PC game.
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#110 Jan 12 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Default
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Kierk wrote:
hexaemeron wrote:

All cars have four wheels because it's the most efficient design we've had for personal conveyance to date. Until someone makes a more efficient UI that WoW's... it's going to be used and probably should be.


I think the point was that not all cars should look like a Honda Accord. We all value it's long term reliability and resale value, but it's looks are out dated, bland and overused.

That's what turns me off from games like Rift too. The art style just doesn't interest me, and that includes the UI.

As far as the topic goes, I don't know what SE was doing other than what already been stated. Working on Crystal Tools and managing platforms.

I do like the effort in the graphics department and the 'weight' of my character though. If only that amount of polish went into everything else, we'd have a very awesome game on our hands.



Well put, but I think the point is there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. This argument is similar to the one I’ve been preaching since the release of FFXIV
“Other than an AH, how can players effectively trade goods at an MMO level?”
We’ve learned that the Markes are not the answer :)

#111 Jan 12 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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sideways wrote:



Well put, but I think the point is there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. This argument is similar to the one I’ve been preaching since the release of FFXIV
“Other than an AH, how can players effectively trade goods at an MMO level?”
We’ve learned that the Markes are not the answer :)



Well I agree, but the ends clearly justify the means; I don't want to stifle creativity. I don't mind reinvention when it works. Borrowing elements or even the basis of WoW's UI (being customizable) is fine, but do other games have to make it look exactly like it?

On the flip side I don't like the whole "reinvention of pretty much everything" that SE does because it's all or nothing and it's time consuming. With that time you can tweak things that are already in place; like a WoW-like UI or *cough* graphics engine.

However for FFXIV and the unique position it's in, (console and PC) for a controller/mouse set-up the UI in this case is coming along OK.

Though I think there are a lot of different factors here (like function, context of the game, control (think: Apple) and style) in the end I want good design, and I like innovation when it works and I want it to mesh well with the game.

My point is I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of familiarity for something new, especially if it is just as good or almost as good as it's rival.
#112 Jan 12 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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tmproff wrote:
Quote:
Yet, there are no breast physics! What's the point if they don't jiggle!


Seriously, if they jiggled...how much fighting/crafting would you actually do?


I'd probably create a new class called "Marathon Runner"

Edited, Jan 11th 2011 3:40pm by tmproff


LMAO!!!
#113 Jan 12 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:

I never understood how people could play with half their screens blocked by random "raiding" addons and 50 action bars. Silly clickers.


Didn't you know? Seeing the game you're playing is inefficient. Smiley: sly


I don't know how this thread turned in to an argument about UIs but..

Here is a UI I threw together for my mage alt in WoW.
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/jonathandcowden/WoWScrnShot_010211_205937.jpg
It could use a little cleaning up but it's functional.
- All the abilities you see, I use regularly. Sometimes 10+ in one encounter.
- The text on the side is built in to the default WoW UI to show my quests. You can turn it off with one click.
- The little brown square is a threat meter because I do a lot of damage and pull threat easily.
- The little square in the bottom left is a dps meter so I can make sure I'm contributing and keeping up with what I expect from other players.
- The Orbs for health and mana I mod'ed in because I like Diablo.

Here is something from when I played Aion.
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/jonathandcowden/Aion0008.jpg
- All default.
I think it looks great. It's also practical and responsive.

Neither of them are completely covering my screen. I also have different UIs for all my characters to fit their specific needs so I can be as efficient as possible. For example on my healer I have another addon that shows me everyone's health all the time. Do I have it running all day? No, just when we're in raid encounters and I don't want people to DIE.

I don't need these things to be a good player. I have them to make sure I'm always doing everything I can to be the best healer,dps,tank, or anything else that I play because that's more important to me than hiding a box on my screen. If that's not important to you, maybe you should go play a single player game.
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#114 Jan 12 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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Not that it's relevant to the original point, but two of the reasons I stopped playing WoW were Gearscore and "Link Achievement".


I don't know if I can get on board with you on this one Mik, and I generally agree with you on things. Both of those mods were created so that folks starting groups and end game guilds have a quick reference to measure whether a player has the necessary experience and gear to contribute. The mods in themselves aren't bad mods.

We have the Lodestone in FFXIV now which also shows all that stuff - you can look anyone up and see everything about them and whether they have certain things accomplished. Will you quit over that? It's not like checking things like that is exclusive to WoW.

At some point, we'll be doing end game in FFXIV and a certain minimum level of gear and possibly mission progress will also be required by some leaders. Leaders will be checking the Lodestone and expecting that folks are up to snuff, especially if pick up groups happen. It's the same in FFXI - I have seen folks get skipped over when someone is shouting for a Nyzul pickup or whatever because they were running around in AF. In FFXI you can tell at a glance that someone is wearing garbage - it is a little harder in WoW because of the sheer amount of gear. The Gearscore mod to measure your iLevel was born to give a gauge of what performance level the player is currently sitting at.

Now I'm not saying that gearscore isn't sometimes abused and leaders are a little unrealistic with what is a true *minimum* for success, but it's a good tool and good for measuring at a glance whether or not your tank is going to get one-shotted or will be able to handle some heat. I'd rather have the red flag thrown up sooner than later and save the group a wipe.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 4:52pm by Torrence
#115 Jan 12 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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SE did so much I don't understand that it hurts thinking about it.


This....

Between the elementary things they had already done right once (XI) and failed to reapply, to the new things that just didn't work at all, failure to understand is pretty much a given.

All I keep coming back to is laziness. I can find no other good reason so many basic things that they already knew how to not only do right, but well were redesigned sloppily, or just not designed at all.

I think this was the root of all the vitriol from XI immigrants. We saw how well they could design search functions, chat, optimization, ease of job changes, etc, and we got a next gen that was so "10 steps backwards" it seemed to be designed by the freshman class of a vo-tech school doing their first team project.
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#116 Jan 12 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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GuardianFaith wrote:
Here is a UI I threw together for my mage alt in WoW.
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/jonathandcowden/WoWScrnShot_010211_205937.jpg
It could use a little cleaning up but it's functional.
- All the abilities you see, I use regularly. Sometimes 10+ in one encounter.
- The text on the side is built in to the default WoW UI to show my quests. You can turn it off with one click.
- The little brown square is a threat meter because I do a lot of damage and pull threat easily.
- The little square in the bottom left is a dps meter so I can make sure I'm contributing and keeping up with what I expect from other players.
- The Orbs for health and mana I mod'ed in because I like Diablo.

Here is something from when I played Aion.
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz332/jonathandcowden/Aion0008.jpg
- All default.
I think it looks great. It's also practical and responsive.

Neither of them are completely covering my screen. I also have different UIs for all my characters to fit their specific needs so I can be as efficient as possible. For example on my healer I have another addon that shows me everyone's health all the time. Do I have it running all day? No, just when we're in raid encounters and I don't want people to DIE.

I don't need these things to be a good player. I have them to make sure I'm always doing everything I can to be the best healer,dps,tank, or anything else that I play because that's more important to me than hiding a box on my screen. If that's not important to you, maybe you should go play a single player game.

Still too cluttered for my tastes.

My UI on my Hunter looked something like this:
http://www.wowuigallery.com/bb-gallery/large/215_screenshot1.jpg

Some differences with mine and this one...

- 60+ keybinds, so no need for multiple bars.
- Buff/debuff timer bars instead of icons.
- No raid frames.
- Omen Threat Meter
- DPS Meter

I'll never understand why pure DPS classes even have raid frames.
#117 Jan 12 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I don't disagree that a customizable, moddable UI is a -good- thing. I also think that the fact that WoW's UI is so easily moddable is a great thing, and there are a ton of mods I used with it on a regular basis. I just don't want to see FFXIV look like a copy of WoW right out of the box. If someone -else- wants every game to look exactly alike, then give them that option, but don't force me to do it.


As far as I can tell, the UI debate isn't a question of form--I mean, FFXIV has an action bar, it has a minimap, it has "unit frames", it has an in-game map...it has a lot of things you'd expect to find in any MMO.

What it lacks, last time I played, was similar functionality to these elements in other games, and this is what's important. There's no drag-and-drop functionality: not for the action bar, not for the inventory, not for the paperdoll, not for anything. There are no hotkeys for your action bar. Every sub-window has to be accessed from the main menu: inventory, paperdoll, abilities, stats, quests, and on and on. Basically, it's a console interface implemented on what is currently a PC game.


To point: I fully support drag and drop (which they said they are adding) and even FFXI had hotkeys (albeit not customizable) where Ctrl+I was inventory, Ctrl+E was equipment, etc... FFXIV lacks this and DESPERATELY needs it.

My argument is not against these features in a UI, my argument is against copying the looks and placement of a UI, down to the very last detail of the chat box font and exactly the same amount of bags and the circular character portrait in the upper left with character level in the lower right of that and Health/mana bars to the right.

My argument is not that I want to navigate a menus; I support that it should be more customizable, should have drag and drop, etc... I just don't want it to -LOOK- like WoW's UI. That's all. My gripe is not with the performance and function, but with the appearance and layout.
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#118 Jan 12 2011 at 4:48 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Not that it's relevant to the original point, but two of the reasons I stopped playing WoW were Gearscore and "Link Achievement".


I don't know if I can get on board with you on this one Mik, and I generally agree with you on things. Both of those mods were created so that folks starting groups and end game guilds have a quick reference to measure whether a player has the necessary experience and gear to contribute. The mods in themselves aren't bad mods.

We have the Lodestone in FFXIV now which also shows all that stuff - you can look anyone up and see everything about them and whether they have certain things accomplished. Will you quit over that? It's not like checking things like that is exclusive to WoW.

At some point, we'll be doing end game in FFXIV and a certain minimum level of gear and possibly mission progress will also be required by some leaders. Leaders will be checking the Lodestone and expecting that folks are up to snuff, especially if pick up groups happen. It's the same in FFXI - I have seen folks get skipped over when someone is shouting for a Nyzul pickup or whatever because they were running around in AF. In FFXI you can tell at a glance that someone is wearing garbage - it is a little harder in WoW because of the sheer amount of gear. The Gearscore mod to measure your iLevel was born to give a gauge of what performance level the player is currently sitting at.

Now I'm not saying that gearscore isn't sometimes abused and leaders are a little unrealistic with what is a true *minimum* for success, but it's a good tool and good for measuring at a glance whether or not your tank is going to get one-shotted or will be able to handle some heat. I'd rather have the red flag thrown up sooner than later and save the group a wipe.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 4:52pm by Torrence


In theory, they were good ideas, but the reason I disliked what they became was the absurdity of it. Once groups started wanting 5k gearscores for heroics or expecting people to link achievement for IC when it had only been out for a week, that train lost me. I saw a pickup group for Naxx 10 once where the person starting the group was decked out in blues and greens, only two purples (from Kara, and they weren't even good ones) and he was asking for 4k gear score and for people to link Naxx completion achieves.

Gearscore and the achievement system had potential, and were nice tools when used properly. The problem was, more than half of the people I ran into were being ridiculous.
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#119 Jan 12 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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To the OP: Bureaucracy.

Granted, it may work differently in Japan, but bureaucracy is a fickle beast. She can take any good idea and **** it out with great energy.

The people that do the designing usually sit on the bottom. The people that do the deciding usually sit on top. The people that sit on the top don't have a lot of time for thinking—they have a lot of time for worrying and speculating. In fact, that's what they are paid to do. I imagine that President Wada probably gets 300+ emails a day, over 80% of which are in some way or another legitimate and need to be handled properly.

Developers, designers, and artist are workhorses. Even if they push out great work they still have directors, leads, and seniors who regularly sit closer to the heads and executive cabinet than they do. A great build can be tossed out at the behest (ho'hum!) of another. It's a mix between quality control to conflicting visions. The entire point of say, an art director, is to ensure quality, but they still answer to the person on top. Given these directives, it isn't surprising at all that something can go horribly wrong.

If a competent team of individuals was testing this game (and they were: see Beta and Alpha) you can only assume that your concerns were brought to the appropriate individuals. But who aggregates the comments? Who reads them? Who re-directs them? And how do these comments and feedback fit into the already packed schedules of those making the game? Business is a like a powerful waterfall: if you try to stick your hand in it, you may find that your hand gets ripped off!

There was also an article (in EGM?) years back about how "bad games were made." The short of it: big investments give little room for back peddling. I imagine that the esteemed Crystal Tools engine—which we can all agree is pretty awesome—was such a notch on SE's belt that it was hard to go back and criticize everything else. Add in social psychological maxims and the next think you know: everyone is completely certain that they have a great game because of one element, even though the 9999+ other elements are lacking.

#120 Jan 12 2011 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Nonagon wrote:
To the OP: Bureaucracy.

Granted, it may work differently in Japan, but bureaucracy is a fickle beast. She can take any good idea and sh*t it out with great energy.

The people that do the designing usually sit on the bottom. The people that do the deciding usually sit on top. The people that sit on the top don't have a lot of time for thinking—they have a lot of time for worrying and speculating. In fact, that's what they are paid to do. I imagine that President Wada probably gets 300+ emails a day, over 80% of which are in some way or another legitimate and need to be handled properly.

Developers, designers, and artist are workhorses. Even if they push out great work they still have directors, leads, and seniors who regularly sit closer to the heads and executive cabinet than they do. A great build can be tossed out at the behest (ho'hum!) of another. It's a mix between quality control to conflicting visions. The entire point of say, an art director, is to ensure quality, but they still answer to the person on top. Given these directives, it isn't surprising at all that something can go horribly wrong.

If a competent team of individuals was testing this game (and they were: see Beta and Alpha) you can only assume that your concerns were brought to the appropriate individuals. But who aggregates the comments? Who reads them? Who re-directs them? And how do these comments and feedback fit into the already packed schedules of those making the game? Business is a like a powerful waterfall: if you try to stick your hand in it, you may find that your hand gets ripped off!

There was also an article (in EGM?) years back about how "bad games were made." The short of it: big investments give little room for back peddling. I imagine that the esteemed Crystal Tools engine—which we can all agree is pretty awesome—was such a notch on SE's belt that it was hard to go back and criticize everything else. Add in social psychological maxims and the next think you know: everyone is completely certain that they have a great game because of one element, even though the 9999+ other elements are lacking.





Well thought out thanks. I scholar you now :)
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#121 Jan 12 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
KristoFurwalken wrote:
Nope.

One bar, that 90% of the people playing put in the exact default position the standard MMO UI does. No ability to drag and drop abilities into that one bar, instead you have to go through about a half a dozen steps to put an ability on that one bar.

Cant minimize and re-size, or move the map. The standard FFXIV UI doesn't beat anything by a mile.

The only thing FFXIV does right in the UI is the ability to move things to where you want them, which is something I was doing in DDO about 5 years ago.

The dev team isn't working on making an entirely new interface for sh*ts and gigs, they're doing it because no one likes it. Other than a fanboi of course.


Ostia wrote:
Lmao! FFXIV UI better than WOW's ? Say What ?

No MMORGP launches with end content on it's vanilla phase ? SAY WHAT ?

I love how you guys have trouble comprehending what I'm talking about.

The reason WoW's UI is good is because of how customizable it is. Its default UI is worse than FFXIV's. It's a cluttered mess of action bars, the unit frames are in a terrible position, and the multiple bags are a stupid feature that adds to the clutter. FFXIV's UI has minimalistic features that most UI modders strive for. Invisible when not in combat, centered unit frame, minimalist party frames, etc.

Is FFXIV's UI better than a properly modded WoW UI? No. But it's better than default.

Not to mention most people's custom WoW UI's look something like this: http://capnbry.net/~bmayland/fi/wow/ui.jpg

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 12:42pm by SoumaKyou


That is the default UI lol
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#122 Jan 12 2011 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Not that it's relevant to the original point, but two of the reasons I stopped playing WoW were Gearscore and "Link Achievement".


I don't know if I can get on board with you on this one Mik, and I generally agree with you on things. Both of those mods were created so that folks starting groups and end game guilds have a quick reference to measure whether a player has the necessary experience and gear to contribute. The mods in themselves aren't bad mods.

The problem is that there are certain gear combinations that provide better bonuses to certain classes than just higher iLevel gear, yet people were gearing for Gearscore and not for the optimal pieces. Here's an example...

Hunter T9 2pc set bonus = Allows Serpent Sting to crit. [ 350+ DPS ]

Hunter T10 2pc set bonus = 5% chance to increase damage by 15%. [ 400+ DPS ]

Hunter T10 4pc set bonus = 5% chance to gain 20% Attack Power. [ 200+ DPS ]

Ideally, the best combination was 2pc T9 + 2pc T10. This gave higher overall DPS than 4pc T10, because the ridiculous DPS from 2pc T9's set bonus greatly outweighed the extra stats of 4pc T10. However, a lot of noobs rushed the T10 4pc set bonus because it was a higher Gearscore, thus gimping their own damage. The only way 4pc T10 would out-DPS the 2pc/2pc combo would be if all 4 pieces of T10 were ilvl264, and even that was out-DPSed by ilvl258 T9 pieces, which would then require ilvl277 T10 to out-DPS it.

Now to the point. All the noobs were replacing their 2pc T9 too early, which resulted in considerably lower DPS output compared to a Hunter with a lower Gearscore but was geared properly. Yet the noobs would almost always get invited into raids first, because the idiot raid leader thought higher Gearscore meant higher skill. And so you have the 5.5-6k Gearscore raid failing hard on Marrowgar because it was full of Gearscore stacking players with terrible gear. ****, most scrubs actually ditch their ilvl251 T10 gear in favor of inferior ilvl264 offset pieces that would drop in ICC, for no other reason than because they thought Gearscore actually meant anything.
#123 Jan 12 2011 at 9:58 PM Rating: Decent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Not that it's relevant to the original point, but two of the reasons I stopped playing WoW were Gearscore and "Link Achievement".


I don't know if I can get on board with you on this one Mik, and I generally agree with you on things. Both of those mods were created so that folks starting groups and end game guilds have a quick reference to measure whether a player has the necessary experience and gear to contribute. The mods in themselves aren't bad mods.

The problem is that there are certain gear combinations that provide better bonuses to certain classes than just higher iLevel gear, yet people were gearing for Gearscore and not for the optimal pieces. Here's an example...

Hunter T9 2pc set bonus = Allows Serpent Sting to crit. [ 350+ DPS ]

Hunter T10 2pc set bonus = 5% chance to increase damage by 15%. [ 400+ DPS ]

Hunter T10 4pc set bonus = 5% chance to gain 20% Attack Power. [ 200+ DPS ]

Ideally, the best combination was 2pc T9 + 2pc T10. This gave higher overall DPS than 4pc T10, because the ridiculous DPS from 2pc T9's set bonus greatly outweighed the extra stats of 4pc T10. However, a lot of noobs rushed the T10 4pc set bonus because it was a higher Gearscore, thus gimping their own damage. The only way 4pc T10 would out-DPS the 2pc/2pc combo would be if all 4 pieces of T10 were ilvl264, and even that was out-DPSed by ilvl258 T9 pieces, which would then require ilvl277 T10 to out-DPS it.

Now to the point. All the noobs were replacing their 2pc T9 too early, which resulted in considerably lower DPS output compared to a Hunter with a lower Gearscore but was geared properly. Yet the noobs would almost always get invited into raids first, because the idiot raid leader thought higher Gearscore meant higher skill. And so you have the 5.5-6k Gearscore raid failing hard on Marrowgar because it was full of Gearscore stacking players with terrible gear. ****, most scrubs actually ditch their ilvl251 T10 gear in favor of inferior ilvl264 offset pieces that would drop in ICC, for no other reason than because they thought Gearscore actually meant anything.


I had forgotten all about that argument.

When my lock first hit 80, I had a friend drag me along to leech in VoA with no other locks there. I got lucky and got two pieces of PvP gear from Koralon and from that point on, I'd wear them whenever I was trying to get an invite to beef up my gear score. After getting to the raid, I'd switch to my regular gear.
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#124 Jan 12 2011 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I had forgotten all about that argument.

When my lock first hit 80, I had a friend drag me along to leech in VoA with no other locks there. I got lucky and got two pieces of PvP gear from Koralon and from that point on, I'd wear them whenever I was trying to get an invite to beef up my gear score. After getting to the raid, I'd switch to my regular gear.

Hah. I forgot about the PVP gear stacking GS.

I hate GS stacking. I hate people who think higher GS equals higher DPS. I hate people who think higher GS means higher skill. I hate how good players were forced to stack GS to get invited to raids and then switch back to their real gear after the invite. ****, I hate GS altogether. One of the many things that ruined WoW. I think it affected me a lot because I was a hardcore theorycrafter for the Hunter community, and watching other Hunters run around in sub-optimal gear just because it had a higher GS made me wanna club baby seals.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 11:07pm by SoumaKyou
#125 Jan 12 2011 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I had forgotten all about that argument.

When my lock first hit 80, I had a friend drag me along to leech in VoA with no other locks there. I got lucky and got two pieces of PvP gear from Koralon and from that point on, I'd wear them whenever I was trying to get an invite to beef up my gear score. After getting to the raid, I'd switch to my regular gear.

Hah. I forgot about the PVP gear stacking GS.

I hate GS stacking. I hate people who think higher GS equals higher DPS. I hate people who think higher GS means higher skill. I hate how good players were forced to stack GS to get invited to raids and then switch back to their real gear after the invite. ****, I hate GS altogether. One of the many things that ruined WoW. I think it affected me a lot because I was a hardcore theorycrafter for the Hunter community, and watching other Hunters run around in sub-optimal gear just because it had a higher GS made me wanna club baby seals.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 11:07pm by SoumaKyou


Also, I hate when FFXI players would XP in AF when lower level pieces of gear (e.g. Battle Gloves, Jaridah Peti) had better stats. Or worse, people who would XP in 5/5 AF2 (or close to it) with terrible stats. Yes, you have a bunch of AF2. It looks really cool. Walk around town with it all you want. Put it away now.
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#126 Jan 12 2011 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I had forgotten all about that argument.

When my lock first hit 80, I had a friend drag me along to leech in VoA with no other locks there. I got lucky and got two pieces of PvP gear from Koralon and from that point on, I'd wear them whenever I was trying to get an invite to beef up my gear score. After getting to the raid, I'd switch to my regular gear.

Hah. I forgot about the PVP gear stacking GS.

I hate GS stacking. I hate people who think higher GS equals higher DPS. I hate people who think higher GS means higher skill. I hate how good players were forced to stack GS to get invited to raids and then switch back to their real gear after the invite. ****, I hate GS altogether. One of the many things that ruined WoW. I think it affected me a lot because I was a hardcore theorycrafter for the Hunter community, and watching other Hunters run around in sub-optimal gear just because it had a higher GS made me wanna club baby seals.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 11:07pm by SoumaKyou


Also, I hate when FFXI players would XP in AF when lower level pieces of gear (e.g. Battle Gloves, Jaridah Peti) had better stats. Or worse, people who would XP in 5/5 AF2 (or close to it) with terrible stats. Yes, you have a bunch of AF2. It looks really cool. Walk around town with it all you want. Put it away now.


Heyheyhey...

Corsair AF was **** awesome to use till they eventually released better lol. Relic though, yeah I agree, AFv3 kinda brought us back to full time AF wearing for some xD
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#127 Jan 12 2011 at 10:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Theonehio wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I had forgotten all about that argument.

When my lock first hit 80, I had a friend drag me along to leech in VoA with no other locks there. I got lucky and got two pieces of PvP gear from Koralon and from that point on, I'd wear them whenever I was trying to get an invite to beef up my gear score. After getting to the raid, I'd switch to my regular gear.

Hah. I forgot about the PVP gear stacking GS.

I hate GS stacking. I hate people who think higher GS equals higher DPS. I hate people who think higher GS means higher skill. I hate how good players were forced to stack GS to get invited to raids and then switch back to their real gear after the invite. ****, I hate GS altogether. One of the many things that ruined WoW. I think it affected me a lot because I was a hardcore theorycrafter for the Hunter community, and watching other Hunters run around in sub-optimal gear just because it had a higher GS made me wanna club baby seals.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 11:07pm by SoumaKyou


Also, I hate when FFXI players would XP in AF when lower level pieces of gear (e.g. Battle Gloves, Jaridah Peti) had better stats. Or worse, people who would XP in 5/5 AF2 (or close to it) with terrible stats. Yes, you have a bunch of AF2. It looks really cool. Walk around town with it all you want. Put it away now.


Heyheyhey...

Corsair AF was **** awesome to use till they eventually released better lol. Relic though, yeah I agree, AFv3 kinda brought us back to full time AF wearing for some xD


Perhaps I need to clarify... there's a difference between using gear that is good (WAR feet, BRD hands) at least kinda makes sense (DRG hands, THF feet) and using gear that is just plain dumb (WAR body, SAM feet) in comparison to alternatives.

I'm not saying "No one should use AF or relic ever"; just that "The shinyness of a ****** piece of gear does not outweigh terrible stats when there's a better piece you could be using instead.
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#128 Jan 13 2011 at 1:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Gear score I never really liked, because it was cheatable with pvp gear, or by wearing sub par items that were higher in level.

The achievements things, I can understand people wanting to use it, but it got out of hand. People requiring the achievement for first 4 ICC bosses in order to get into a raid for just the first 4 bosses is dumb. People wanting some proof you've done say 9/12 for a group intending to go the whole way, I'm pretty much ok with that. Its a faster way of screening people rather than interviewing them, checking etc.

I guess I'm ok with trying to weed people out for learning or on the cusp content, but if its your Saturday afternoon ICC 4-6 boss run, don't bother with it.
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#129 Jan 13 2011 at 5:41 AM Rating: Default
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Not that it's relevant to the original point, but two of the reasons I stopped playing WoW were Gearscore and "Link Achievement".


I don't know if I can get on board with you on this one Mik, and I generally agree with you on things. Both of those mods were created so that folks starting groups and end game guilds have a quick reference to measure whether a player has the necessary experience and gear to contribute. The mods in themselves aren't bad mods.

The problem is that there are certain gear combinations that provide better bonuses to certain classes than just higher iLevel gear, yet people were gearing for Gearscore and not for the optimal pieces. Here's an example...

Hunter T9 2pc set bonus = Allows Serpent Sting to crit. [ 350+ DPS ]

Hunter T10 2pc set bonus = 5% chance to increase damage by 15%. [ 400+ DPS ]

Hunter T10 4pc set bonus = 5% chance to gain 20% Attack Power. [ 200+ DPS ]

Ideally, the best combination was 2pc T9 + 2pc T10. This gave higher overall DPS than 4pc T10, because the ridiculous DPS from 2pc T9's set bonus greatly outweighed the extra stats of 4pc T10. However, a lot of noobs rushed the T10 4pc set bonus because it was a higher Gearscore, thus gimping their own damage. The only way 4pc T10 would out-DPS the 2pc/2pc combo would be if all 4 pieces of T10 were ilvl264, and even that was out-DPSed by ilvl258 T9 pieces, which would then require ilvl277 T10 to out-DPS it.

Now to the point. All the noobs were replacing their 2pc T9 too early, which resulted in considerably lower DPS output compared to a Hunter with a lower Gearscore but was geared properly. Yet the noobs would almost always get invited into raids first, because the idiot raid leader thought higher Gearscore meant higher skill. And so you have the 5.5-6k Gearscore raid failing hard on Marrowgar because it was full of Gearscore stacking players with terrible gear. ****, most scrubs actually ditch their ilvl251 T10 gear in favor of inferior ilvl264 offset pieces that would drop in ICC, for no other reason than because they thought Gearscore actually meant anything.


If they where wiping on marrowgar, it was not becuase of GS, it was because they where scrubs.
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#130 Jan 13 2011 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
If they where wiping on marrowgar, it was not becuase of GS, it was because they where scrubs.


Pretty much. Some people would extend that to all of Wrath.
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#131 Jan 13 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
If they where wiping on marrowgar, it was not becuase of GS, it was because they where scrubs.

That's the point. I've met scrubs in full 264 T10 who'd cause wipes and I've met great players in 232 T9 that I'd rather take with me in my alt raids.
#132 Jan 13 2011 at 9:14 AM Rating: Default
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
If they where wiping on marrowgar, it was not becuase of GS, it was because they where scrubs.

That's the point. I've met scrubs in full 264 T10 who'd cause wipes and I've met great players in 232 T9 that I'd rather take with me in my alt raids.


Again you are missing the point, a scrub will be a scrub with or with out gear, GS is a tool that when used correctly is a good tool, it is not to determine SKILL, but to gauge as to what content said player is able to do, or what content he has done, it is all a draw in the hat really, do i take this guy in full tier 9 to TOC or do i take this guy on heroic gear ? i would lean towards the full T9 guy :) again are there scrubs with gear ? sure, are there horrible players with no gear ? yep :)
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#133 Jan 14 2011 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I think LOTRO has equal if not better graphics. But it was so quest heavy it was like EQ which I hated. But the graphics is nice, I had to buy a new graphics card to stop the lag and see some of the nice graphics. I played ffxi for at least 7 years and was highly addicted to it. The best part of it was partying was the normal above level 12 or so and not the exception. The worst part was the lack of user friendliness. I was impressed how intuitive WOW and later LOTRO was compared to it. But again partying was not quite as advanced as in ffxi where you camped, pulled, and killed. In WOW and LOTRO partying is like raiding huns without definitive roles as in ffxi. Sooo FFXIV has improved the user friendliness, but killed the party incentitive. Plus drops really suc, crafting is like working a second job, and I get bored killing solo with no one to scream at your lousy playing skills, or seeing a great party work with precision and racking up the experience points. Level up 4 levels in a couple of hours with a great party wasn't that unusual. So FFXIV find the balance and you will reach paradise of the MMO world.
#134 Jan 14 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ostia wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
If they where wiping on marrowgar, it was not becuase of GS, it was because they where scrubs.

That's the point. I've met scrubs in full 264 T10 who'd cause wipes and I've met great players in 232 T9 that I'd rather take with me in my alt raids.


Again you are missing the point, a scrub will be a scrub with or with out gear, GS is a tool that when used correctly is a good tool, it is not to determine SKILL, but to gauge as to what content said player is able to do, or what content he has done, it is all a draw in the hat really, do i take this guy in full tier 9 to TOC or do i take this guy on heroic gear ? i would lean towards the full T9 guy :) again are there scrubs with gear ? sure, are there horrible players with no gear ? yep :)


I once did Ony 25 on my Warlock with a gearscore of around 3800, still wearing two heirlooms and one green item, the rest mostly blue with only three purples. There was only one other Warlock in the group and the ilvl 245 Warlock head dropped. I rolled on it and won. The other warlock had a gear score around 4800 and was LIVID about it, berating me in raid chat until the raid leader asked him "Why are you at 3k dps and the the 3800 lock is at 5k?" Raid leader gave me the helm and congratulated me.
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#135 Jan 14 2011 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
SoumaKyou wrote:
Ostia wrote:
If they where wiping on marrowgar, it was not becuase of GS, it was because they where scrubs.

That's the point. I've met scrubs in full 264 T10 who'd cause wipes and I've met great players in 232 T9 that I'd rather take with me in my alt raids.


Again you are missing the point, a scrub will be a scrub with or with out gear, GS is a tool that when used correctly is a good tool, it is not to determine SKILL, but to gauge as to what content said player is able to do, or what content he has done, it is all a draw in the hat really, do i take this guy in full tier 9 to TOC or do i take this guy on heroic gear ? i would lean towards the full T9 guy :) again are there scrubs with gear ? sure, are there horrible players with no gear ? yep :)

The point is that it's not as simple as knowing what their GS is. That's exactly how GS is being used, and exactly why it's a stupid system. It's whether they're using the right combination of gear and not wearing PVP gear or offset pieces that remove their set bonuses, just to have a higher GS. It's a matter of that 5k GS doing 10k DPS vs the 5.8k GS doing 7k DPS.
#136 Jan 14 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Default
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Well, I can see this thing getting moved to cross site forums but anyway.

I agree with you guys that GS FUBAR'd the game. And I hope I never play an MMO with anything like it.

That said, I used it to a certain extent. If I was making a raid for hardmodes, and needed 3 or 4 pugs to fill it out, in general I would prefer someone with a 6500 GS over someone with a 4k GS. Without knowing someone, and neither had the achievement, that is really the only way I had to tell if that person was capable of doing what we needed. Now of course I ran into several 6k plus GS'rs that made me wonder how the **** they figured out how to turn on their computer. Those folks were put on the **** list and never invited again.

Also if I knew someone personally, or a raid/guildmember had a friend with a fairly low GS but could confirm this guy was a real player, I had no problem inviting that person.

In wrath things just got so faceroll that you could easily carry 4 or 5 people in a raid and get them to a 6500+ GS. So many scrubs would have a cousin, or a RL friend in a good guild that would carry them through everything it messed it all up.

#137 Jan 14 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
Well, I can see this thing getting moved to cross site forums but anyway.

I agree with you guys that GS FUBAR'd the game. And I hope I never play an MMO with anything like it.

That said, I used it to a certain extent. If I was making a raid for hardmodes, and needed 3 or 4 pugs to fill it out, in general I would prefer someone with a 6500 GS over someone with a 4k GS. Without knowing someone, and neither had the achievement, that is really the only way I had to tell if that person was capable of doing what we needed. Now of course I ran into several 6k plus GS'rs that made me wonder how the **** they figured out how to turn on their computer. Those folks were put on the sh*t list and never invited again.

Also if I knew someone personally, or a raid/guildmember had a friend with a fairly low GS but could confirm this guy was a real player, I had no problem inviting that person.

In wrath things just got so faceroll that you could easily carry 4 or 5 people in a raid and get them to a 6500+ GS. So many scrubs would have a cousin, or a RL friend in a good guild that would carry them through everything it messed it all up.



I actually read a story of a guild that full cleared Ulduar, including Yogg, (EDIT: Actually, I don't think they did Alg) in nothing but ilvl 200 blues that were available by crafting or from Heroics. No purples on anyone whatsoever.


It's the same argument people have made in FFXI for years, and this applies to FFXIV and in fact nearly every MMORPG everywhere: Skill > Gear.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 12:18pm by Mikhalia
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#138 Jan 14 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

I actually read a story of a guild that full cleared Ulduar, including Yogg, (EDIT: Actually, I don't think they did Alg) in nothing but ilvl 200 blues that were available by crafting or from Heroics. No purples on anyone whatsoever.


It's the same argument people have made in FFXI for years, and this applies to FFXIV and in fact nearly every MMORPG everywhere: Skill > Gear.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 12:18pm by Mikhalia


Ya don't get me wrong. Skill is > gear. Not disagreeing. If my guild wanted to try some hardmodes with greens on I would say lets rock. But if I am making a pug, I am not going to waste the other peoples time by goofing off trying to win a naked raid. Unless thats what we're all there for.

Without knowing a person, you have absolutely no way of knowing what his skill level is. The only thing you can see is his GS. That in no way guarantees that he isn't scrubsauce, but it's more than a promise from a guy with a bunch of questing gear on.
#139 Jan 14 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I actually read a story of a guild that full cleared Ulduar, including Yogg, (EDIT: Actually, I don't think they did Alg) in nothing but ilvl 200 blues that were available by crafting or from Heroics. No purples on anyone whatsoever.


It's the same argument people have made in FFXI for years, and this applies to FFXIV and in fact nearly every MMORPG everywhere: Skill > Gear.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 12:18pm by Mikhalia

Those self-made hardmodes are fun. My guild cleared ICC25 in 232's for fun. We got to H Sind in 245 T9, but had to switch to our regular gear for H LK. Took us a couple nights.

We even did fights with Aspect of the Pack on for some lulz. We got wrecked at H Putricide. Kiting blobs and passing disease is hard when you're dazed.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 12:28pm by SoumaKyou
#140 Jan 14 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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To switch this back to FFXIV related...

It will be interesting once FFXIV gets a little older, especially for endgame content. With so much gear available, how do you tell at a glance if someone is properly equipped to do an event?

Better yet, will there be a way to see another player's stats (since they're customizable; one could theoretically be a Rank 50 Gladiator with all their points in INT and MND) or what abilities they have equipped?
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#141 Jan 14 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To switch this back to FFXIV related...

It will be interesting once FFXIV gets a little older, especially for endgame content. With so much gear available, how do you tell at a glance if someone is properly equipped to do an event?

Better yet, will there be a way to see another player's stats (since they're customizable; one could theoretically be a Rank 50 Gladiator with all their points in INT and MND) or what abilities they have equipped?


Well in FFXI we kinda knew. We would just know about where everyone in our LS was gear wise. I guess you could say we mentally gear scored them before they even joined our LS. So pretty much, if you were in our Linkshell, you were geared enough for whatever the game had.

So I'm gonna say that's how FFXIV goes.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 12:39pm by KristoFurwalken
#142 Jan 14 2011 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
will there be a way to see another player's stats (since they're customizable; one could theoretically be a Rank 50 Gladiator with all their points in INT and MND) or what abilities they have equipped?

We'd use Lodestone for that. Well, stats at least. Abilities equipped, I have no clue.
#143 Jan 14 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
To switch this back to FFXIV related...

It will be interesting once FFXIV gets a little older, especially for endgame content. With so much gear available, how do you tell at a glance if someone is properly equipped to do an event?

Better yet, will there be a way to see another player's stats (since they're customizable; one could theoretically be a Rank 50 Gladiator with all their points in INT and MND) or what abilities they have equipped?


They really need to make the stats more cut & dry imo. The elemental resists/ stat Star ++ wtf system isn't doin it for me. What's wrong with str+20 dex+20 acc+10 ? Seems they're always trying to be weird. Did I hear somewhere that they brought back hidden stats too? Come on..
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#144 Jan 14 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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GuardianFaith wrote:
They really need to make the stats more cut & dry imo. The elemental resists/ stat Star ++ wtf system isn't doin it for me. What's wrong with str+20 dex+20 acc+10 ? Seems they're always trying to be weird. Did I hear somewhere that they brought back hidden stats too? Come on..


Didn't you hear? Keeping information from players is what all the cool kids want!
#145 Jan 14 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
GuardianFaith wrote:
They really need to make the stats more cut & dry imo. The elemental resists/ stat Star ++ wtf system isn't doin it for me. What's wrong with str+20 dex+20 acc+10 ? Seems they're always trying to be weird. Did I hear somewhere that they brought back hidden stats too? Come on..


Didn't you hear? Keeping information from players is what all the cool kids want!


Well, I'm really not supposed to tell you this, but SE is about to add [REDACTED]


Edited, Dec 21st 2011 11:59pm by Square-Enix
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#146 Jan 14 2011 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
StrijderVechter wrote:
GuardianFaith wrote:
They really need to make the stats more cut & dry imo. The elemental resists/ stat Star ++ wtf system isn't doin it for me. What's wrong with str+20 dex+20 acc+10 ? Seems they're always trying to be weird. Did I hear somewhere that they brought back hidden stats too? Come on..


Didn't you hear? Keeping information from players is what all the cool kids want!


Well, I'm really not supposed to tell you this, but SE is about to add [REDACTED]


Edited, Dec 21st 2011 11:59pm by Square-Enix


You forgot about [EXPUNGED], and [REDACTED], not to mention ______________.
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Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#147 Jan 14 2011 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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"Actually a HUGE amount of time on this game was spent making characters look more realistic."

If so, its an impressive failure. You do realize that Star Wars Galaxies.. an MMO that was out nearly a decade before FF14, had even more realistic looking characters and insanely more animations/emotes/etc?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcDiD4D2OIA

this was made by filming in-game animations that everyone had access to. You will notice the characters have facial expressions that are far better than FF14s and their animations and emotes are much more fluid and natural. Combat animations beat FF14's with a stick

Pikeman (equivalent to lancer)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mtyyevs10cU

Teras Kasi (equivalent to Pugilist)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP5gX09YgZk

Notice the realistic animation and fluidity of the movements. SWG did this 7 years before FF14 was released. Need I say more?

Also, SWG had emotes tied in to player chat so that if you say 'they went that way' the game recognized a direction was being given and had the character automatically POINT. You typed 'haha' or 'lol' and the character automatically performed a laugh animation. This was the same for almost all known emotes.

Of course, there is a gap in graphic quality as we're comparing a game released in 2010 to one released in 2003.

Personally I think this game wasn't worked on for more than a year or two and by a very small, incompetent design team.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 3:23pm by Skyfaller
#148 Jan 14 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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2,202 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
KristoFurwalken wrote:
Well, I can see this thing getting moved to cross site forums but anyway.

I agree with you guys that GS FUBAR'd the game. And I hope I never play an MMO with anything like it.

That said, I used it to a certain extent. If I was making a raid for hardmodes, and needed 3 or 4 pugs to fill it out, in general I would prefer someone with a 6500 GS over someone with a 4k GS. Without knowing someone, and neither had the achievement, that is really the only way I had to tell if that person was capable of doing what we needed. Now of course I ran into several 6k plus GS'rs that made me wonder how the **** they figured out how to turn on their computer. Those folks were put on the sh*t list and never invited again.

Also if I knew someone personally, or a raid/guildmember had a friend with a fairly low GS but could confirm this guy was a real player, I had no problem inviting that person.

In wrath things just got so faceroll that you could easily carry 4 or 5 people in a raid and get them to a 6500+ GS. So many scrubs would have a cousin, or a RL friend in a good guild that would carry them through everything it messed it all up.



I actually read a story of a guild that full cleared Ulduar, including Yogg, (EDIT: Actually, I don't think they did Alg) in nothing but ilvl 200 blues that were available by crafting or from Heroics. No purples on anyone whatsoever.


It's the same argument people have made in FFXI for years, and this applies to FFXIV and in fact nearly every MMORPG everywhere: Skill > Gear.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 12:18pm by Mikhalia


Actually they did, they give you an achivement for doing it with a certain amount of ILVL, the same concept was on TOC too. And i agree Skill> Gear
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#149 Jan 14 2011 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Skyfaller wrote:
"Actually a HUGE amount of time on this game was spent making characters look more realistic."

If so, its an impressive failure. You do realize that Star Wars Galaxies.. an MMO that was out nearly a decade before FF14, had even more realistic looking characters and insanely more animations/emotes/etc? [/sm][/i]


i'm not sure what relevance that fact has to anything, aside from your own nostalgia.

an impressive failure. that's a pretty foolish thing to say. I watched the SWG vids and sure, they have some great animations. So?

Are they better than ffxiv's? i guess. Who cares. Either way it looks like crap in practice. I watched a pvp jedi duel and it was the most boring thing ever. The two PCs weren't remotely close to one another. I didn't even know they were fighting at first. I thought they were both showing off moves for each other. Oh wait i guess they are fighting. that guy keeps falling down while that other guy spams the same move.

meh. Try comparing ffxiv's animations to a game that is actually successful and on the market.
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#150 Jan 14 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Llester wrote:
Skyfaller wrote:
"Actually a HUGE amount of time on this game was spent making characters look more realistic."

If so, its an impressive failure. You do realize that Star Wars Galaxies.. an MMO that was out nearly a decade before FF14, had even more realistic looking characters and insanely more animations/emotes/etc? [/sm][/i]


i'm not sure what relevance that fact has to anything, aside from your own nostalgia.

an impressive failure. that's a pretty foolish thing to say. I watched the SWG vids and sure, they have some great animations. So?

Are they better than ffxiv's? i guess. Who cares. Either way it looks like crap in practice. I watched a pvp jedi duel and it was the most boring thing ever. The two PCs weren't remotely close to one another. I didn't even know they were fighting at first. I thought they were both showing off moves for each other. Oh wait i guess they are fighting. that guy keeps falling down while that other guy spams the same move.

meh. Try comparing ffxiv's animations to a game that is actually successful and on the market.


If nothing else, it proves that a game that look good isn't safe from dying off if the game itself isn't worth playing to most people.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#151 Jan 14 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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2,426 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Llester wrote:
Skyfaller wrote:
"Actually a HUGE amount of time on this game was spent making characters look more realistic."

If so, its an impressive failure. You do realize that Star Wars Galaxies.. an MMO that was out nearly a decade before FF14, had even more realistic looking characters and insanely more animations/emotes/etc? [/sm][/i]


i'm not sure what relevance that fact has to anything, aside from your own nostalgia.

an impressive failure. that's a pretty foolish thing to say. I watched the SWG vids and sure, they have some great animations. So?

Are they better than ffxiv's? i guess. Who cares. Either way it looks like crap in practice. I watched a pvp jedi duel and it was the most boring thing ever. The two PCs weren't remotely close to one another. I didn't even know they were fighting at first. I thought they were both showing off moves for each other. Oh wait i guess they are fighting. that guy keeps falling down while that other guy spams the same move.

meh. Try comparing ffxiv's animations to a game that is actually successful and on the market.


If nothing else, it proves that a game that look good isn't safe from dying off if the game itself isn't worth playing to most people.


sure, which is kind of sad. because from what i hear of SWG, i probably would have been one of those people who loved it. it sounded like a great niche game. wish there were more of those. Not every game has to appeal to every gamer! Stop doing this! It makes your games worse in the long run!

in the case of xiv, its less sad. because the game i have gotten used to is nothing special really. if they ***** it up more while trying to fix it, so be it.
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