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All this game needs is time.Follow

#1 Jan 12 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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Does everyone want a WoW clone? When I read these forums that's what it sounds like.

When this game was released it was not horrible but needed fixing. Most issues have been addressed and taken care of. Now most complaints are for some very stupid things.


- There are no quest in the game.
What do you call all the Leves you can do? Those are quest.

- Sp is broke / slow leveling.
Have any of you played FFXI? FFXIV is ten times faster to level. Is everyone so use to WoW feeding them levels? Sorry you can’t reach 50 in a month.

- No content.
Content? Hmm, like advanced job quest, more than one story line, chocobo license, airship pass, special items. I take it not to many people have been at the START of a new mmo. These things will come. Why start a game with these things when 95% of people still do not have a class high enough to do any of these. If you must have Everything, well wait a year or two and come back.

- Copy paste.
Come on… Have you seen how big theses maps are? Every mmo does copy paste. It's fact. I have taken programming classes on the road to my IT degree and from what I seen it would take years or many many teams of programs, designers, and developers to make everything different on these maps.

 
Now some things that could be addressed but still should not be getting Slammed.
 

- Combat speed.
From my experience most things are fine, except spell casting. Sometime I find spell casting time is inconstant or sluggish. For the pace of the whole battle, I find it fine.
 
- End game.
I am only at rank40 so have not experienced any "end game" yet, so this is just my observation and opinion. Yes it would be nice to see more things for rank50 people to do But there are not that many people at rank50 (Not even rank30...). I'm sure there will be more to do once more people get to rank50.

- Auction house
I Hated not having a auction house, but now I'm a little more open minded to it. I am able to find things I need but still would like one.
 

I have no point to this post beside I have insomnia and I'm sick of some the junk posted on here. Let's see some more post on great accomplishments, having fun, information sharing and Constructive criticism.


These are my opinions of course and I have one request before the flaming starts. Please please be at least rank 30 or above before Debating your points. You are not helping anyone by posting when you have not played enough to experience some these things.
#2 Jan 12 2011 at 10:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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pinktacoman wrote:


- There are no quest in the game.
What do you call all the Leves you can do? Those are quest.

- End game.
I am only at rank40 so have not experienced any "end game" yet, so this is just my observation and opinion. Yes it would be nice to see more things for rank50 people to do But there are not that many people at rank50 (Not even rank30...). I'm sure there will be more to do once more people get to rank50.


Rather than flame on I gotta ask, how can you possibly be rank 40 and still consider leves a quest? Even the people who staunchly defend SE and this game and feel that it will grow into a mega powerhouse of an MMO concede that doing the same 8 or 10 leves over and over for 400k+ (level 23 to 33 for instance) is redundant and boring.

-Teeg
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#3 Jan 12 2011 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know why I bother, but I'll hit the easy ones:

pinktacoman wrote:
- There are no quest in the game.
What do you call all the Leves you can do? Those are quest.


You have a very loose definition of quest. Leves are quests like urine is a drink. Quests usually imply something story based.

pinktacoman wrote:
- No content.
Content? Hmm, like advanced job quest, more than one story line, chocobo license, airship pass, special items. I take it not to many people have been at the START of a new mmo. These things will come. Why start a game with these things when 95% of people still do not have a class high enough to do any of these. If you must have Everything, well wait a year or two and come back.


No content means there's nothing fun to do in the game. The only thing the game offers right now is grind, leves, gathering, and crafting. If you don't like gathering or crafting, that just leaves grinding and leves, which get really old, really fast. Furthermore, advanced job quests and chocobos in XI were low level content, as were the first couple of rank missions, so your argument that "95% of people still do not have a class high enough" is bogus.

pinktacoman wrote:
- Copy paste.
Come on… Have you seen how big theses maps are? Every mmo does copy paste. It's fact. I have taken programming classes on the road to my IT degree and from what I seen it would take years or many many teams of programs, designers, and developers to make everything different on these maps.


For one, there's a difference between copying and pasting the same rock versus copying and pasting entire caves and entire sections of map. If you are really taking programming and you think this amount of copy and paste is acceptable, please pick a new major.

But you do have a point, we could probably expect more if not for the fact that this game was only a year's worth of design. I mean, it's not like they were working on it for four or five years, right? Oh wait...

They DID have many years -and- many many teams of programmers, designers, and developers. They were just lazy.
 
pinktacoman wrote:
- End game.
I am only at rank40 so have not experienced any "end game" yet, so this is just my observation and opinion. Yes it would be nice to see more things for rank50 people to do But there are not that many people at rank50 (Not even rank30...). I'm sure there will be more to do once more people get to rank50.


Nope. There -are- people at rank 50 already. I'll let one of them tell you themselves.

pinktacoman wrote:
These are my opinions of course and I have one request before the flaming starts. Please please be at least rank 30 or above before Debating your points. You are not helping anyone by posting when you have not played enough to experience some these things.


Sorry, I don't have to be rank 30 to know that the game isn't fun. If anything, the game was somewhat fun when I started and has gotten progressively less and less fun the more I play. At least at 15 I stepped away in time to still see the positive aspects of it. If you really want, I can get another 15 levels. I'll probably REALLY hate the game by then and have absolutely nothing positive to say whatsoever.

Edited, Jan 12th 2011 11:08pm by Mikhalia
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#4 Jan 12 2011 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Leve's are the most **** poor excuse for quests ive seen, this should have been a side thing added later on for some daily exp boosts, not the prime way to level. Also they are stupidly repetitive.

SP is broken, its not scaled properly. Also its actually a lot faster to lvl in FFXI. heres a quick example: in both games a good average is about 10k per hour, in FFXI to get from 26-27 it takes 5,300exp....in FFXIV 18,000 ....do you see what i mean?

content....in this day in gae, you have to have WAY more then that....a prime example are games like DCUO or Rift, one just launched with more crap to do and the other is still in beta and has more to do. Just dont cut it now.

Copy paste in this game was overused...many because the zones ARE so big, you spend so much time having to run on foot through it the repeats become way too obvious.

combat is...ok, needs some adjustments for sure, more-son on the class side. I also dont care to much for the mash the 1 button style, id rather have delays on weapons and an auto attack then do this.

end game- again this goes back to content, there needed to be more then..well NOTHING (when it launched). They know people like to get there fast and after 4 months when all you can do is grind and do story (which makes you grind to do it) i would expect much more then just 5 NMs and thats it (part to blame is they spent all that time fixing and adding BASIC FEATURES)

AH- adding an AH would just be handy, i dont think anyone wants to do away with the retainers, but the AH works for a reason, its fast and effective. The people for an AH are clearly way bigger then against.


I know this is some "white knight" post to most people so expect a lot of back lash guy with 1 post.
#5 Jan 12 2011 at 10:31 PM Rating: Good
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Hi to you white knight.

Look, there are some positives to the game. There are group dynamics and Leves are a good way to organize a shell every night to rank up. Leves are a nice way to level a crafting job from 1-20. Leves are about the only way to rank up post 30. If you solo grid for 8-10k an hour to rank up only you are crazy. Leves are ok to obtain similar gear that is crafted and now well under 200k on most servers.

That;s about it I'm afraid. All of that is "OK." The game lacks a story line. Yes there are main story line quests but come on, they are a CS here then there. Not really any fighting(see: DoL, DoH). It's nothing like the nation quests in XI. It's not even close......It's worse than ToAu, and at least in that mission line eventually I had to fight a mob that could wipe a full PT of 75 players in the middle of the mission line. The mission line is garbage, this being 2010 and all and with, uhhhh I don't know every game now a days, with spoken dialog reading NPC chat logs really really feels outdated.

The fact that I can kill a blue mob in 20 sec and get 80 SP than turn around and fight a mob that cons red and takes me like 3 min to kill and yields only 140 SP is ******* broken....I know beating a dead horse here but come on. The fact that in this game outside of leves I'm happy to pull down 10k an hour SP'n on cobies. In XI i logged off when I was getting 10k an hour, now granted that was post ToAu, but even before then at crab camps when we were ~level 50+ we would pull 10k an hour....nad the TNL was not ******* 70k or even worse once you start hitting 45+....


This game has no history, has no enemy, has no life, and has no hope of surviving. I played this game for about as long as I can. I got a craft to 30 and a DD to almost 40, I ranked up when it was 15 man Pt's on efts, and I've ranked up when it has been 15 man leve linking and solo cobies all day long. I can honestly say that the way the game is now is broke and unfinished. Now I know someone will come in and say "Not broke working as intended...." working as intended would mean we would have healthy server populations and this game wouldn't be "the worst game, or worst let down, or worst what ever of 2010."

tonight I decided that I was done with this game, After spedning all this time trying to rank up as fast as I can so I could fight some NMs that really don't matter and fighting fatigue, I thought....why? And I honestly couldn't come up with an answer. A lot of people are playing hoping for a better future....With it being almost a month since the new dev team took over and we still have nothing in terms of the direction of the game......not gaining anymore trust.

I wish this game the best of luck, and those of you who still play. I'm moving on to greener pastures. I still have to finish ME2, I keep hearing good things about new Vegas, and DE2 is coming out in a month and a half. I told myself this game had until DA2, but I don't even think it'll make it that far. I mean DC universe just was released today, and while not likely a killer of this game....it looks like the reviews will be better than this game.
#6 Jan 12 2011 at 10:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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zanfire wrote:


content....in this day in gae, you have to have WAY more then that....a prime example are games like DCUO or Rift, one just launched with more crap to do and the other is still in beta and has more to do. Just dont cut it now.


The jury is a little out for yet on the way you progress from zone to zone. I do kind of like having a home city (or a base as I hang in Ul Dah and its not my home). But it sure is refreshing to cover 15 levels in a weekend and never do the same quest twice. Repetition is a necessary evil in an MMO. (kill 10 of these, get me 5 of those) but at least it has some feeling behind it the way Rift handles it - rather than "Here's my 8k in quests for the next 36 hours"

-Teeg
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#7Hyanmen, Posted: Jan 12 2011 at 11:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well, uhh, depends on your definition of "based".
#8 Jan 12 2011 at 11:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
pinktacoman wrote:
- Copy paste.
Come on… Have you seen how big theses maps are? Every mmo does copy paste. It's fact. I have taken programming classes on the road to my IT degree and from what I seen it would take years or many many teams of programs, designers, and developers to make everything different on these maps.


For one, there's a difference between copying and pasting the same rock versus copying and pasting entire caves and entire sections of map. If you are really taking programming and you think this amount of copy and paste is acceptable, please pick a new major.


It's also worth mentioning that there are right and wrong ways to use copy-paste.

For example, copy-pasted terrain, like we see in FFXIV, doesn't work so well, because it runs counter to our personal experience with natural landforms, whereas copy-pasted buildings work much better, because their status as man-made objects makes it easier to mentally justify why they look identical. Especially when you factor in additional set-dressing - we are quite familiar with man-made structures, like houses, that are totally identical except for the color of the paint and the location of the furniture, while very few of us have encountered something like a pair of natural ponds that are completely identical but have different arrangements of plants growing on their banks.

Similarly, copy-pasted people don't work very well, but copy-pasted animals and trees do; we're acutely aware of the differences between people, but not between individual members of nun-human species - to a first approximation, all wolves, say, or orangutans or magnolia trees look alike to us. That's why a lot of people notice that the "crowds" in Guitar Hero consist of three people copied all over the screen, while very few call attention to the fact that every tunnel worm in Gustaberg is identical.

(That said, there are tools that generate trees procedurally, resulting in unique models that follow the same basic plan, and similar techniques could be used to generate unique skins for animal models as well. Such tools allow potentially infinite variety at very low cost, since all you need to do to create a new model is select new seed data, instead of making a new model or texture by hand.)
#9 Jan 12 2011 at 11:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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pinktacoman wrote:

- There are no quest in the game.
What do you call all the Leves you can do? Those are quest.


Absolutely agree: leves are quest -- quest, in the singular, because they're all the same **** thing.

What you fail to recognize is the players seem to want quests.
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#10 Jan 12 2011 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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A) Make the zones smaller
or
B) Learn to use your game engine more effectively.

Either way as time passes the team will become better at using their tools as well.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#11 Jan 12 2011 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Quests usually imply something story based.


Well, uhh, depends on your definition of "based".


If you split that hair anymore, you're going to ignite an atom.
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#12 Jan 13 2011 at 12:07 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
If you split that hair anymore, you're going to ignite an atom.


Well, in my opinion there are quests designed primarily with gameplay in mind and quests designed with story in mind. Usually they are mixed up and a single quest focuses on one of them. It's still a quest nonetheless.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#13 Jan 13 2011 at 12:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
If you split that hair anymore, you're going to ignite an atom.


Well, in my opinion there are quests designed primarily with gameplay in mind and quests designed with story in mind. Usually they are mixed up and a single quest focuses on one of them. It's still a quest nonetheless.
Opinions aside, call them anyway you want the fact it's that levels get dull real fast.

When people come and say "The game has no content" it's just an elegant way to say FFXIV is not fun to play, that's true, at least for them and guess what happens when a lot of people thing that your game is not fun?... well you can ask Tanaka about it.

Ken

edit: typo

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 6:33am by kenage
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#14 Jan 13 2011 at 12:37 AM Rating: Default
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Well, in that case the problem is hardly "there are no quests" but "there is not enough quest variety" instead.

It's indeed legitimate issue, but sadly I don't think it is going to receive many votes in the poll. One would think if the main way of progression is dull it would be one of the most important things to fix, but I guess not.
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SE:
Quote:
We really want to compete against World of Warcraft and for example the new Star Wars MMO.

#15 Jan 13 2011 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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pinktacoman wrote:
Does everyone want a WoW clone? When I read these forums that's what it sounds like.

When this game was released it was not horrible but needed fixing. Most issues have been addressed and taken care of. Now most complaints are for some very stupid things.

These are my opinions of course and I have one request before the flaming starts. Please please be at least rank 30 or above before Debating your points. You are not helping anyone by posting when you have not played enough to experience some these things.


Took a bunch out because it wasn't really worth commenting on.

First thing, No, just because someone doesn't like FFXIV does not mean they want a wow clone. I would have liked a non-wow game that was good. FFXIV wasn't it. I can think of a few non-wow clones that are very good, but I won't mention them because people hate when other games get plugged on this board.

Second, things got fixed, but it was in no way most things. I remember the game coming out and people saying that if the UI was better, game would be great. If the random skill ups were standardized, it would be great. I thought those people were short sighted then, and I think people who feel that those being addressed makes the game feel "fixed" are wrong. Maybe its the term fixed thats causing problems though. The game isn't broke, it works fine and you can play it. But people don't like it. Enough people canceled, quit, complained, don't log in, etc. that SE has considered drastic changes be made. That in no way implies that most of the problems are gone.

Lastly, You can review most of this game at level 1. another huge chunk after your first round of leve quests. If someone's spouting off about boss mechanics when they are rank 20, sure ignore them. But aside from the new NMs, and specific leves, and story "missions", I can't think of anything in the game that I have yet to do. There is no curtain that low-mid level characters can't see past.
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#16 Jan 13 2011 at 3:45 AM Rating: Decent
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this game is boring!
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#17 Jan 13 2011 at 3:55 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Quests usually imply something story based.


Well, uhh, depends on your definition of "based".


Depends on your definition of definition? had to do it for fun
#18 Jan 13 2011 at 4:10 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
copying and pasting entire caves


You mean like WOW has done up until its most recent expansion? Or maybe like every single other MMORPG has ever done? Even FFXI uses block-based construction models for areas such as Gustav and Kuftal tunnel. If you look really closely, even WOW has copy-pasted 90% of their forests and has a 100% reuse of buildings with the minor addition of an internal or external fixture.

Not going to argue for leves, though. Only faction leves and behests seem like real quests, the rest are just..well, they are trash, filler content. At least if I watch filler content in an anime series its witty and humorous. Leves are..well..as you said, they're not satisfying at all.

In my personal experience of playing around 50 different MMORPGS for at least 20 hours each, I can say this one thing about area design:

It is not about having each area unique, but making people forget or not notice that they just went through the same cave/building/bridge/plains for the 100th time by presenting them with an immediate distraction.

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 4:15am by Uryuu
#19 Jan 13 2011 at 4:59 AM Rating: Good
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pinktacoman wrote:
Does everyone want a WoW clone? When I read these forums that's what it sounds like.


Not really. I would say what I'm really looking for is a successor to WoW; a game that will do what WoW did in driving the genre forward. The only way that's going to happen is if its core features are emulated and supported by new additions, which is exactly what WoW did when it overtook EQ.

Right now, WoW is essentially carrying the genre with every expansion it releases, and while Blizzard is keeping the game fun, it seems obvious to me that it's running out of steam. MMOs are going to be in trouble if Blizzard stumbles at this point because there's no other games available that can support the massive number of players that they've brought in. SWTOR is coming, sure, but if the EA Louse blog is anything to go by, SWTOR's voice acting isn't the new savior of the genre.

Quote:
- There are no quest in the game.
What do you call all the Leves you can do? Those are quest.


In WoW, we call leves "daily quests". However, the daily quests present in WoW are still far more varied and interesting than FFXIV's guildleves, which are essentially the most bland and generic kill and fetch quests. Even WoW's early dailies had you doing things like escorts and bombing runs in addition to generic kill and fetch quests, and one of them was a "Simon Says" game. It was awesome, and it's only gotten better as time goes on.

Quote:
- No content.
Content? Hmm, like advanced job quest, more than one story line, chocobo license, airship pass, special items. I take it not to many people have been at the START of a new mmo. These things will come. Why start a game with these things when 95% of people still do not have a class high enough to do any of these. If you must have Everything, well wait a year or two and come back.


Wait a year or two? With the way FFXIV is hemorrhaging subscribers--not to mention that they're making ZERO dollars per sub atm--they don't have time to wait; they barely have time to bleed as it is. The new dev team Christmas gift that Square gave us is going to be on perpetual crunch time for quite some time if they want to save their product.

Anyways, when WoW came out, it had two full continents with about 15 zones each at release, along with 20 or so instances, 3 of which qualified as end-game raids; within months, two new 5-mans and the 2nd tier of raids had come out, along with a new zone that paved the way for the mid-point between the 2nd and 3rd tiers of raiding. RO released with about 6 towns, dozens of field maps to level on, and several dungeons spread throughout, along with MVPs for high-level players to hunt; the game only got bigger from there, adding even more towns, field maps, and classes within a year. No comment on FFXI's JP launch, though judging by the state of the game at NA launch (which was about a year later), I'm guessing it had enough content to get people to the level cap and squaring off against Shadow Lord, or maybe to Fei'yin. I dunno.

Quote:
- Copy paste.
Come on… Have you seen how big theses maps are? Every mmo does copy paste. It's fact. I have taken programming classes on the road to my IT degree and from what I seen it would take years or many many teams of programs, designers, and developers to make everything different on these maps.


Every game uses copy-paste for various things, though judging from complaints, FFXIV's copy-paste extends to entire terrain features and not just prefab objects like the aetherites or tents or whatever. I personally didn't notice anything severe, though I never really got away from the early parts of Limsa Lominsa to take notice. The city itself did tend to blend together, which made navigating it a pain in the ***. Regardless, it sounds like they didn't sketch/block/plan their zones out too much.

Quote:
- Combat speed.
From my experience most things are fine, except spell casting. Sometime I find spell casting time is inconstant or sluggish. For the pace of the whole battle, I find it fine.


When I played beta, I found the combat pace to be okay, though casters arguably had it far worse, especially since MP didn't regenerate like health did out of combat. I'm not sure what it's like now.

The only thing I disliked about ranged combat was that kiting seemed to be a lost cause, which is kind of important if you're solo-leveling a ranged class and don't want to get your **** caved in by angry birds.

Quote:
- End game.
I am only at rank40 so have not experienced any "end game" yet, so this is just my observation and opinion. Yes it would be nice to see more things for rank50 people to do But there are not that many people at rank50 (Not even rank30...). I'm sure there will be more to do once more people get to rank50.


Judging from complaints, "end game" is currently hunting NMs out in the wild, which is funny when you consider that they could easily have instanced dungeons with epic storylines and ginormous bosses for players to fight; you know, make it feel like a Final Fantasy game. It's sad when a goofy-*** game like WoW has more cinematic flare than a game made by a company that prides itself on cinematic flare.

Then again, this IS the same company that made The Spirits Within; take that for what you will.

Quote:
- Auction house
I Hated not having a auction house, but now I'm a little more open minded to it. I am able to find things I need but still would like one.


Yeah, an AH would be nice for the trading of everyday goods and you don't really care about bartering; the market wards should be the place to go when you want to barter, similar to the dynamic between the AH and trade chat in WoW.
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Don't play that game anymore. :P
#20 Jan 13 2011 at 5:00 AM Rating: Default
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The wow hate, wont turn this game around lol
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#21 Jan 13 2011 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Ostia wrote:
The wow hate, wont turn this game around lol



Actually, we were using WOW as an example of a successful MMO with very little effort put forth. In fact, the 2nd most wildly successful one, one step behind Perfect World in China.

Pretty sure that if it wasn't for international conversion rates being as they are, that Perfect World Entertainment would have a higher profit than Blizzard Entertainment ever did prior to their forced merger with Activision.

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 5:14am by Uryuu
#22 Jan 13 2011 at 5:37 AM Rating: Default
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as opposed to the MAJOR! Effort SE put into this game right ?
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#23 Jan 13 2011 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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Uryuu wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
copying and pasting entire caves


You mean like WOW has done up until its most recent expansion? Or maybe like every single other MMORPG has ever done? Even FFXI uses block-based construction models for areas such as Gustav and Kuftal tunnel. If you look really closely, even WOW has copy-pasted 90% of their forests and has a 100% reuse of buildings with the minor addition of an internal or external fixture.

Not going to argue for leves, though. Only faction leves and behests seem like real quests, the rest are just..well, they are trash, filler content. At least if I watch filler content in an anime series its witty and humorous. Leves are..well..as you said, they're not satisfying at all.

In my personal experience of playing around 50 different MMORPGS for at least 20 hours each, I can say this one thing about area design:

It is not about having each area unique, but making people forget or not notice that they just went through the same cave/building/bridge/plains for the 100th time by presenting them with an immediate distraction.

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 4:15am by Uryuu


Copy pasted as in, they took 1 small cave and fully copyed it over, not just re-using textures. Like the few area-like caves we have, those work because they are big and expansive...even though they copy and paste a lot they work fine. Those small ones of the main area maps are jokes.

And i feel bad for ARC...and everyone else. They had this big deal about placement and giving abilitys to move around or kite, yet they for some stupid reason gave every mob some form of ranged attack...defeating the whole purpose. ANd these arent just some weak rock throw attacks....they are just as powerful as a full hit. Just plain old poor design.
#24 Jan 13 2011 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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The leveling is SLOWER than FFXI.

Just purely on numbers:
EP-DC mobs in FFXIV: About 70 sp.
EP-DC in FFXI: 50

But the TNLs in FFXIV go up by about 2000 after level 20.
In FFXI they went up by 500 to 1000 until level 50. The TNLS are MUCH larger than FFXI but the SP gains per fight are less.

That, combined with no clear party structure and no way to flag for an invite, its much slower.

And it feels even slower without any carrots. Nothing to level for. I can wear level 50 gear if I wanted and theres no quests to do. If there were some awesome activities or quests that I needed to level for, I would be interested but all it is is some cutscenes to watch.
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#25 Jan 13 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
pinktacoman wrote:
Does everyone want a WoW clone? When I read these forums that's what it sounds like.
I'd rather have a FFXI clone than a WoW clone because at least I enjoyed FFXI.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
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