Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Getting the Most out of CraftingFollow

#1 Jan 13 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
72 posts
There seems to be alot of people that are having trouble with crafting/getting their recipes to succeed. One thing I notice on the Beta Version as well as this version is that the timer bar does actually effect the synth. At first i thought that it was just meant so that you need to used your command before it runs out (prob also meant to prevent botting). I starting doing some testing on different synths and I had better success letting the timer run down to about 1/5th left on some. On some other crafts I had better success only letting it run to 1/5th. Some crafts I had to hit the command right away so none of the bar was used up. Not saying that you can't complete a craft without properly setting the timer but it helps to figure out the optimal timer setting for your craft especially if you plan to do a craft that is a higher rank. Some other difficult crafts required this timer have a certain pattern as well for example 1/5, 4/5, 1/2.... A good sign that you don't have the optimal timer setting for your craft is that the element will become unstable really fast and then you'll have a really tough time. Alot of people are complaining that the crafting is completely random, but they just haven't taken this aspect into account. Just think how you would craft something for real, how much stress you would put on a sword if you didn't heat it long enough, or too long for that matter. What about if you were making lumber and only sawed half way through. How bout grinding a rock to find a jem. Or even making a shirt when you only spent the time to put 2 stiches in it. It works the other way too. You might grind the rock and jem to dust if you hold it too long. Or you saw the log into saw dust. You can make a shirt with 1000 stitches but you'll run out of thread.

I hope this helps people to discover their optimal time settings for crafting and to take the frustrating "randomeness" at succeeding in a synth.
____________________________






#2 Jan 13 2011 at 10:26 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
437 posts
I have noticed this. I never hit it straight away constantly anymore and having more success letting the timer run down more.
____________________________

Metin - Phoenix - BLM75 WHM48 Retired

http://cojenova.enjin.com/ff14forum

#3 Jan 13 2011 at 10:33 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
77 posts
I have noticed this as well on recipes close to my rank or a few higher. I usually wait until about 1/2 way down on the timer before I start the synth. It seems to have been working well on my CRP and ARM. My girlfriend thinks it doesn't matter. She starts the synth as soon as humanly possible and seems to have trouble with her weaver with recipes 5 levels lower than her rank with master guild support. But she does the same for GLD and has no problems. I will have to test her weaving sometime to see how I fare on her character using my method.
____________________________
FFXIV Sterling Cooper - Besaid

FFXI Cheebone - Unicorn
#4LyleVertigo, Posted: Jan 13 2011 at 10:43 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This makes sense considering the game doesn't care if you don't wear any craftsmanship gear or don't eat any food.
#5 Jan 13 2011 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
LyleVertigo wrote:
This makes sense considering the game doesn't care if you don't wear any craftsmanship gear or don't eat any food.

Only thing that matters is your rank and moon phase.


You're saying that someone with just the Tool, no more control, Craft or Mag Craft can still do synths 5 levels above then (30+)?
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#6 Jan 13 2011 at 10:58 AM Rating: Default
***
1,608 posts
Hugus wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
This makes sense considering the game doesn't care if you don't wear any craftsmanship gear or don't eat any food.

Only thing that matters is your rank and moon phase.


You're saying that someone with just the Tool, no more control, Craft or Mag Craft can still do synths 5 levels above then (30+)?



It doesn't matter what the level of the synth is. The difficulty between the difference of your rank vs. the item remains the same.
____________________________

#7 Jan 13 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,449 posts
My point is that from your statment you give to understand that stats received by gear have no influence on synths.

That leads to Control, Magic Craftmanship and Craftmanship having no influence in success rates which has been stated by SE.

Quote:
Q. What do the crafter-related attributes Craftsmanship, Magic Craftsmanhip, and Control each do?
A. Among recipes in the game, there are those for which the rate of progress and chance of success are increased by higher Craftsmanship, and those for which they are determined by Magic Craftsmanship. Control helps to reduce the occurrence of aetherial sparking (see below), and exerts its influence over both types of recipes just mentioned.

All recipes, however, have set attribute requirements. Attempting a recipe with attributes below those required will result in lessened progress and quality, even for successful actions.
____________________________


My FFXIV Blog



#8 Jan 13 2011 at 11:12 AM Rating: Default
***
1,608 posts
Hugus wrote:
My point is that from your statment you give to understand that stats received by gear have no influence on synths.

That leads to Control, Magic Craftmanship and Craftmanship having no influence in success rates which has been stated by SE.

Quote:
Q. What do the crafter-related attributes Craftsmanship, Magic Craftsmanhip, and Control each do?
A. Among recipes in the game, there are those for which the rate of progress and chance of success are increased by higher Craftsmanship, and those for which they are determined by Magic Craftsmanship. Control helps to reduce the occurrence of aetherial sparking (see below), and exerts its influence over both types of recipes just mentioned.

All recipes, however, have set attribute requirements. Attempting a recipe with attributes below those required will result in lessened progress and quality, even for successful actions.



Either they are lying, the system is broken or my character is broken. I don't wear any + control nor any + craftsmanship save for a tiny bit of + mag. craft on my R47 body. I've had very few botches which they were "critical fails".

Fact is, similar to what the op describing, the rate of success is crated by a random % generator before the next session begins. No idea how else to describe it, but it is the reason how it is possible to bust on something much lower than your rank, despite your efforts. The abilities you select and use can nudge the "fates" into your favor to some degree than if you wasn't using them but at times even those won't save you.
____________________________

#9 Jan 13 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
*
80 posts
LyleVertigo wrote:
Hugus wrote:
My point is that from your statment you give to understand that stats received by gear have no influence on synths.

That leads to Control, Magic Craftmanship and Craftmanship having no influence in success rates which has been stated by SE.

Quote:
Q. What do the crafter-related attributes Craftsmanship, Magic Craftsmanhip, and Control each do?
A. Among recipes in the game, there are those for which the rate of progress and chance of success are increased by higher Craftsmanship, and those for which they are determined by Magic Craftsmanship. Control helps to reduce the occurrence of aetherial sparking (see below), and exerts its influence over both types of recipes just mentioned.

All recipes, however, have set attribute requirements. Attempting a recipe with attributes below those required will result in lessened progress and quality, even for successful actions.



Either they are lying, the system is broken or my character is broken. I don't wear any + control nor any + craftsmanship save for a tiny bit of + mag. craft on my R47 body. I've had very few botches which they were "critical fails".

Fact is, similar to what the op describing, the rate of success is crated by a random % generator before the next session begins. No idea how else to describe it, but it is the reason how it is possible to bust on something much lower than your rank, despite your efforts. The abilities you select and use can nudge the "fates" into your favor to some degree than if you wasn't using them but at times even those won't save you.


this applies to battle/mage classes as well...far too much emphasis is placed on rank as opposed to stats...which is very backwards.

and "i've noticed..." doesn't mean anything...give me numbers...if you try and standard on only white you'll succeed 90% of the time if the synth isn't well out range of your rank.
#10 Jan 14 2011 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
72 posts
For an understanding of gear I believe the increased Control, Mag Craft and Rank does exactly what it says on lodestone. But think about a skilled craftsman (higher rank/gear). If they don't have the correct timings they have the knowledge to make slight corrections in their work to have something succeed. Not saying that as long as you know the timings you will be able to synth R50 gear at R1 etc. Because it works the other way too. If a poor crafter with the correct timings attempts a difficult craft they will prob still ***** it up. I.E. they will heat the metal enough but they can't hammer the sword hard enough to forge it.

Using this theory and some trial and error I've had amazing success with crafting. As for your GF Cheebone with Goldsmith, (which I mostly do) Hitting Standard immediately works well even for most synths I do above my rank, it seems that the metal likes to stay very warm without any down time. Though she may notice that the Progress will go up fast but the Quality will barely ever move. Once you get close to the rank you can start to slow down the synth to try and get some HQ out of it. I haven't noticed this working with any other DoH.

Alchemist has the Strangest Synths so far. I find that on some you have to let the timer almost Run out on the first attempt, then Right away on second attempt, like you have to shock the recipe to get it going for potions and stuff. All the Alc recipes seem to follow a different patter (where as GLD seem to be all similar (aside from using grinding wheel)). All the examples are for Standard by the way as I am sure the results are different for Rapid and Bold.
____________________________






#11 Jan 14 2011 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
**
618 posts
SlayerXero wrote:
There seems to be alot of people that are having trouble with crafting/getting their recipes to succeed. One thing I notice on the Beta Version as well as this version is that the timer bar does actually effect the synth. At first i thought that it was just meant so that you need to used your command before it runs out (prob also meant to prevent botting). I starting doing some testing on different synths and I had better success letting the timer run down to about 1/5th left on some. On some other crafts I had better success only letting it run to 1/5th. Some crafts I had to hit the command right away so none of the bar was used up. Not saying that you can't complete a craft without properly setting the timer but it helps to figure out the optimal timer setting for your craft especially if you plan to do a craft that is a higher rank. Some other difficult crafts required this timer have a certain pattern as well for example 1/5, 4/5, 1/2.... A good sign that you don't have the optimal timer setting for your craft is that the element will become unstable really fast and then you'll have a really tough time. Alot of people are complaining that the crafting is completely random, but they just haven't taken this aspect into account. Just think how you would craft something for real, how much stress you would put on a sword if you didn't heat it long enough, or too long for that matter. What about if you were making lumber and only sawed half way through. How bout grinding a rock to find a jem. Or even making a shirt when you only spent the time to put 2 stiches in it. It works the other way too. You might grind the rock and jem to dust if you hold it too long. Or you saw the log into saw dust. You can make a shirt with 1000 stitches but you'll run out of thread.

I hope this helps people to discover their optimal time settings for crafting and to take the frustrating "randomeness" at succeeding in a synth.


Interesting theory but for your testing a few synths, how many did you try. Just by doing lets say 10 isn't enough data to make the claim. Would be interested in seeing a much in depth results over a long period of time. It just might be coincidence that you fail less. For now, I'm gonna go with yes crafting is based on the RNG and is totally random until someone can show with hard proof otherwise.

By all means I'm not trying to kill your idea about the timer, it might have something to do with it.... but can't judge a few synths to make it so. Thats like I'm facing west during raining weather in the desert on what would be a full moon but its raining and i fail less.
____________________________
FFXIV Gilgamesh: Nghthawk Evenfall
FFXIV Gilgamesh: Nytehawk Evenfall


Time is but a window,
Death is but a doorway,
I'll Be Back
#12 Jan 14 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
Crafting outcomes are not "random". I am really baffled by that continued line of criticism on crafting given how much info has been made available to us by both SE and the player community.

I too have thought about the effects of the "crafting time bar", but I write these off as merely perceived and not real. I'm not personally attacking anyone here - but it's just in your head. There has been nothing stated that indicates that the time on the bar (whether per craft, or repeating a synth at the same time each time) should effect the outcome, and I for one can't accept that this is a factor short of a rigorous statistical analysis. Granted, I'm not willing to conduct one, but I've also not had trouble successfully completing crafts, consistently at that, which are 3-5 ranks above me. No, I'm not exaggerating. Here's the methodology I follow:

First thing to do: wear optimal gear per rank. This includes the Main/Off Hand tools, and clothing. It does in fact make a difference. Wearing Velveteen or Canvas at R10 is not effective. You're probably better off wearing Weathered gear at that point. Each slot should be equipped if it helps the craft (+Control, +Craftmanship, +Magic Craftmanship). While it's not clear which recipes require which attribute thresholds (see one of the posts above for SE's explanation), it doesn't hurt at this point to stack as much of these attribute values as possible. I try to keep each of the "big 3" craft values as close to equal as possible. One thing worth noting: it is definitely worth wearing jewelry with primary attributes (STR, DEX, INT, etc.) - see below for which attributes favor which jobs. I'm not sure about secondary attributes (Accuracy, Magic Defense, Evasion) but I wouldn't be surprised if those are beneficial, as well.

From Lodestone - http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=e02f5d9eae1e258e99da3e2b5def23d049a087af:
Quote:
Q.
What happens if I equip a piece of gear, but am not the favored class or rank listed in the item details?

A.
Equipping a piece of gear as anything other than the favored class or optimal rank effectively lowers the item's stats. The larger the gap between an item's optimal rank and the player's current rank, the greater this reduction will be. There are instances, therefore, when equipping a high-rank item will grant lower stats than a low-rank item that is closer to the player's rank.


Second: Have your attribute points allocated properly. SE has stated that the effect is "limited", but helps specifically for trying to HQ an item. At the risk of sounding hypocritical in my advise for writing off the synth timing, I've found that attributes make a large difference in attempting synths 3-5 ranks above your job level. No, I did not do a statistical analysis =P.

From Lodestone - http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=92e2a2ee13f174b5a6f5f658135e1bf4ab725f29
Quote:
Discipline of the Hand
The effect of attributes on synthesis is limited. When attempting to craft a high-quality item, however, the likelihood of success increases as the attribute most closely associated with the tool being used rises. As the attributes associated with the main and off hand tools of each class are different, players may wish to give careful consideration to the class on which they wish to focus. A list showing the attributes related with the main and off hand tools of each class can be found below.

Class/Main/Off
Carpenter/VIT/DEX
Blacksmith/STR/MND
Armorer/VIT/STR
Goldsmith/DEX/INT
Leatherworker/VIT/INT
Weaver/DEX/MND
Alchemist/INT/PIE
Culinarian/MND/PIE


We've been told that, generally, main hand synths are effective for High Quantity "god send" yields (i.e. 16 instead of 12) and off hand for High Quality (+1,+2,+3). According to this information, if you want to level weaver using a needle (main hand tool), you should have a relatively high amount of Dexterity.

Of course, reallocating attribute points is not feasible at the frequency that players switch jobs. That's why several DoW/M classes have mark-purchasable traits that allow you to perform a virtual swap. For example, the Lancer trait "Mind over Matter" allows you to virtually swap DEX into MND while the trait is active. These are particularly useful in crafting.

I acknowledge that I have the luxury of being almost Physical 50 (and thus have more points to allocate) and have leveled up multiple jobs, but at the same time, there are stat caps per rank that limit this advantage. (see the same lodestone link above, or the thread on this forum).

Third: do not spam standard. Let me repeat - DO NOT SPAM STANDARD! Make sure you have useful R10 abilities equipped - my personal favorite are ALC's 'Preserve' and TAN's 'Fulfillment'. I've been basically ridiculed on these forums for asserting the crafting system is "intricate", but it really is. Element Stability, Aetherial color, and Aetherial sparking, in addition to the player's element affinities, all affect crafting progress and outcome. Learning how to use these intricacies at your advantage is key to being a good crafter.

Quote:
Synthesis
Q. What happens exactly when the harnessed element of a synthesis attempt becomes unstable?
A. When an element of a synthesis becomes unstable, the following effects take place respectively:
Lightning: Progress greatly reduced
Wind: Durability consumption greatly increased
Fire: Quality greatly reduced
Ice: Progress reduced, chance of aetherial sparks reduced
Earth: Durability consumption increased, chance of aetherial sparks increased
Water: Quality reduced, chance of aetherial sparks increased


Choosing 'Wait' and using your abilities at the right times is essential. There is no formula to follow - only through experience will you build the intuition to be successful. It's an MMO - it takes time and effort to climb the ranks.

Hopefully others find this advice useful.

Useful links:
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=f3481ce5f7787bea23c4677452f271d7a0a84d5f
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=92e2a2ee13f174b5a6f5f658135e1bf4ab725f29
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#13 Jan 14 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
225 posts
I just spam standard on synths that outrank me, oh I bought mark books too. Knowing when to take risks, and not too is all crafting takes. I have smelting, inlaying, and bonecrafting on Gold, and tailoring on weaving. All synths not only have a rank but a level of difficulty as well. Good idea to pick up leve quest oriented books first. (What kind of synths you see mostly at higher rank leves you do)



Edited, Jan 14th 2011 10:41am by Spyrit178
____________________________


#14 Jan 14 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
*
80 posts
volta1 wrote:
Third: do not spam standard. Let me repeat - DO NOT SPAM STANDARD! Make sure you have useful R10 abilities equipped - my personal favorite are ALC's 'Preserve' and TAN's 'Fulfillment'. I've been basically ridiculed on these forums for asserting the crafting system is "intricate", but it really is. Element Stability, Aetherial color, and Aetherial sparking, in addition to the player's element affinities, all affect crafting progress and outcome. Learning how to use these intricacies at your advantage is key to being a good crafter.


depends on what you are doing...if you are grinding for sp...find a synth that gives 200-250sp and spam standard...it really isn't worth spending more than 60-90s on a craft if you are grinding.

sure you may get 350 but you are doubling your time per synth and are more likely to fail.

this also works a lot better if you have the required training.

grinding to 50 is easy...figuring out how to hq is another story i don't think has been successfully figured out.

my theory atm is that you want craftsmanship depending on what stat the tool you are using favors...for example, weaving main hand favors dex so if you use it you'd want higher craftsmanship over m. craftsmanship...if you use off-hand it favors mnd so you'd want m. craftsmanship over craftsmanship. don't quote me on this...just a theory that i don't have time to provide data for.
#15 Jan 14 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
stripesonfire wrote:


depends on what you are doing...



I noted that this was my methodology for doing synths 3-5 ranks above the rank of your current job.

I forgot to mention:
- Having recommended training
- Having Master facilities buffs (no reason not to at 1-2K per hour)
- Eating the right foods (there's a detailed post on this, somewhere in the forum)

Spamming standard with no Wait/abilities works for certain things. If you're grinding for SP, I'm inclined to spend an extra 30 seconds for the extra 50+ SP, but hey, to each his own.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#16 Jan 14 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
194 posts
Brilliant post Volt! You quote a couple of Lodestone posts that I have bookmarked >< It's really nice to see someone in ZAM community take the time to consolidate that information in one centralized location. Some really invaluable information in your posts.

I can't tell you how many times I see someone in a ZAM reference a Lodestone thread and fail to provide a linky or an actual quote. Instead they just say something like "OMG you have no clue what you are talking about, SE clearly stated how it actually works at Lodestone". Invariably, I go to Lodestone to find the post they are referencing and have to search through other Lodestone guides like "How To Hook Up A Mouse And Keyboard to your computer" and "How To Breath". Don't get me wrong, there's great info at Lodestone, but there's also a lot of FFXIV for dummies type info too.

#17 Jan 14 2011 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
thejones wrote:
Brilliant post Volt! You quote a couple of Lodestone posts that I have bookmarked >< It's really nice to see someone in ZAM community take the time to consolidate that information in one centralized location. Some really invaluable information in your posts.

I can't tell you how many times I see someone in a ZAM reference a Lodestone thread and fail to provide a linky or an actual quote. Instead they just say something like "OMG you have no clue what you are talking about, SE clearly stated how it actually works at Lodestone". Invariably, I go to Lodestone to find the post they are referencing and have to search through other Lodestone guides like "How To Hook Up A Mouse And Keyboard to your computer" and "How To Breath". Don't get me wrong, there's great info at Lodestone, but there's also a lot of FFXIV for dummies type info too.



Thanks for the props, Jones. Yes, I know what you mean (I'm guilty of it too, at times), so I'm glad the 35 minutes I spent writing the post was worth it.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#18 Jan 14 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
The "optimal time" to trigger an action at any point during a synthesis attempt is approximately the same time as you decide which action to take...plus or minus a second or two. The timer bar has absolutely zero influence on the outcome, and there's absolutely no way to test and confirm that it does. I mean, odd hypotheses aside, the OP couldn't be more ambiguous. For some crafts it's this and others it's that but sometimes it changes and...what?

No. Just no. OP is not helping by stating this nonsense as fact. The timer bar exists for one reason and one reason only and that's to keep you moving along with the synth.

Crafting is heavily influenced by random outcomes and circumstances beyond the crafter's control and there are things a crafter can do beyond simply spamming Standard Synthesis to increase their chances of success, but none of those things have anything to do with poorly conceived and poorly tested theories.

"Crafting with a female lalafel within 10 yalms of you can increase your chances of success with certain synths" is about as relevant and reliable a statement as suggesting that when you trigger an action relative to the timer bar influences outcomes.
#19 Jan 14 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
Aurelius, I mostly agree with what you said except:
Quote:
Crafting is heavily influenced by random outcomes and circumstances beyond the crafter's control


I'm not trying to troll you or solicit one of your infamously elaborate response, but please tell me what could be possibly 'random' about crafting, beyond the basic probability of a synthesis action being successful (with its already stated factors of Control, Craftsmanship, Magic Craftsmanship, class attribute affinities, and recipe element affinities)?

My argument, of course, is that since these factors are known and governed by a set of probabilistic rules, the outcomes are not 'random' in the true sense of the word.

Maybe we agree, maybe not... but it is fact that many many posters continue to site the "RNG" nature of the craft system in a disparaging way, and those claims are baseless.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#20 Jan 14 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
72 posts
Lol... No I did not come to this conclusion over 10 synths (well I did :-), but I've completed many more synths since then with this in mind). I had most crafting classes to 20's in the beta version and I do lots of crafting now when I have the time. I must say that this isn't a post saying to not have optimum gear for crafting or to spam Standard Synth. Of course everyone can craft the way they want if they are having success. I am very good at picking up on patterns, and over Hundreds (prob thousands by now) of synths I came across this pattern. Is it a coincedence that different classes/recipes have better results when you utilize the Timer, for sure it could be. But I know when I do Botany, if I kept swinging in the spot where it said "You feel nothing promising" I'd for sure have difficulty getting results. I imagine it's plausible that the Timer could effect the success of a synth. If people don't want to try this method that is okay. I only posted my findings to assist people that were having difficulty. Cheers.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 4:38pm by SlayerXero
____________________________






#21 Jan 14 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
12 posts
The existance of an optimal time is testable.

pick one synthesis and keep rank, direction facing, weather effects, and gear the same (including damage %):

control: hit standard at the top of the wait bar over the course of 1 moon cycle
experiment: hit standard at xx% of the bar over the course of 1 moon cycle

record the conditions (durability left, progress, unstability if any, sparks, if any) and result of each standard hit (remember to note type of success/failure, and values of progress/durability gained/lost)

note: there are probably more variables to control, you must exhaust all of these and control them. figuring out what those variables are and how to control them is probably the hardest part of designing an experiment.

do test for xx = (0,100)

Compare everything you think would affect success rate between the control hits and the experiment hits. (e.g. the success rate at 100% timer bar while under earth unstability was 90% vs. the success rate at 90% timer bar while under earth unstability was 91%.

If you find a difference between control and experiment groups that is above some margin of error, you've gone and proven that an optimal time does exist!


Personally, I think SE's RNG is a failure. I think they reuse the seed or something for a few hundred generations or a few seconds. I've noticed that on very easy synths, I'll often fail multiple times in a row. I've also noticed that when I miss in combat, I'll often miss several in a row. As a result, waiting for the progress bar to drop will increase your chances at a different seed for your RNG. For synths that have a > 50% chance of success (most of the ones you attempt), this would give the "feeling" of better success rates.
#22 Jan 14 2011 at 5:15 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius, I mostly agree with what you said except:
Quote:
Crafting is heavily influenced by random outcomes and circumstances beyond the crafter's control


I'm not trying to troll you or solicit one of your infamously elaborate response, but please tell me what could be possibly 'random' about crafting, beyond the basic probability of a synthesis action being successful (with its already stated factors of Control, Craftsmanship, Magic Craftsmanship, class attribute affinities, and recipe element affinities)?

My argument, of course, is that since these factors are known and governed by a set of probabilistic rules, the outcomes are not 'random' in the true sense of the word.

Maybe we agree, maybe not... but it is fact that many many posters continue to site the "RNG" nature of the craft system in a disparaging way, and those claims are baseless.


Every single action is a weighted coin toss, hence random. Statistically speaking, if you flip a coin you've got a 50% chance of it landing heads up, and a 50% chance of it landing heads down. With the FFXIV crafting system, maybe instead of a 50/50 chance of succeeding you've got a 70/30 chance of succeeding based on all the different influences, but it's still random. You may not mind it, you may enjoy the **** out of it and I won't try to change your mind, but to try to downplay the random influence is ludicrous. It's always present and it factors into every action you take (excluding activating most abilities).
#23 Jan 14 2011 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,910 posts
volta1 wrote:
Spamming standard with no Wait/abilities works for certain things. If you're grinding for SP, I'm inclined to spend an extra 30 seconds for the extra 50+ SP, but hey, to each his own.

I call the proverbial "BS" here. I have put in the effort to try to maximize SP and I have found no way of achieving assured, higher, SP for crafting. I have tried: 100% successful crafts, no failures; very high quality items; slow crafting; fast crafting; high remaining durability; low remaining durability; Leves with high quality; Leves with low quality; pretty much every scenario that can be handled with the data we're given. I have gotten the most SP from crafts from Standard Spam and gotten the lowest SP from HQ results.

The best route is to cut down on time, find something you're 99% successful at and mash Standard. Mash it, like it was the only button in the game, as fast as you can; the more successful synths per hour the better off you are.
____________________________
Ultros: Brinna Vahn
#24 Jan 14 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,539 posts
Here's all you need to know:

Screenshot
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#25 Jan 14 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
volta1 wrote:
Aurelius, I mostly agree with what you said except:
Quote:
Crafting is heavily influenced by random outcomes and circumstances beyond the crafter's control


I'm not trying to troll you or solicit one of your infamously elaborate response, but please tell me what could be possibly 'random' about crafting, beyond the basic probability of a synthesis action being successful (with its already stated factors of Control, Craftsmanship, Magic Craftsmanship, class attribute affinities, and recipe element affinities)?

My argument, of course, is that since these factors are known and governed by a set of probabilistic rules, the outcomes are not 'random' in the true sense of the word.

Maybe we agree, maybe not... but it is fact that many many posters continue to site the "RNG" nature of the craft system in a disparaging way, and those claims are baseless.


Every single action is a weighted coin toss, hence random. Statistically speaking, if you flip a coin you've got a 50% chance of it landing heads up, and a 50% chance of it landing heads down. With the FFXIV crafting system, maybe instead of a 50/50 chance of succeeding you've got a 70/30 chance of succeeding based on all the different influences, but it's still random. You may not mind it, you may enjoy the **** out of it and I won't try to change your mind, but to try to downplay the random influence is ludicrous. It's always present and it factors into every action you take (excluding activating most abilities).


I don't want to gett into a debate on the philosophy of randomness, although I'm sure you'd be willing to engage me in it. So I'll give you that a coin flip, or in this case, an individual synthesis action is 'random' in that the outcome of that particular action cannot be known with certainty upfront.

However, it's important to make the distinction between 'randomess' in the synth actions and random outcome in the craft. When you and others talk about RNG, it connotes images of "oh, I'm R10 and Iron Hauby is a R30 craft, so I have a 1% chance of making it." This is not how it works.

The difference, of course, is that the crafter DOES in fact have a lot of control over the overall outcome of a craft attempt, both through intrinsic values (physical attribute allocation, elemental attribute allocation, control, craftsmanship, magic craftsmanship) and tactical ones (guild training, facilities buffs, food buffs, and synthing appropriately, including using 'Wait' and/or abilities when necessary).

It's not like a craft attempt is completely at the whims of the Twelve. There is a certain amount everyone can do to ensure the best chance for success. The 70/30 split, I've found, is probably close to the probability when attempting crafts whose required ranks are 3-5 above your job level. If you are properly equipped and employ the right tactics at a craft at or below your rank, the probability is much closer to 95/5.

Writing off this crafting system as a random number generator is, quite simply, FUD. You're entitled to your own opinion of not liking it, but others are trying to figure out how to best approach it.

Krycis wrote:
I call the proverbial "BS" here. I have put in the effort to try to maximize SP and I have found no way of achieving assured, higher, SP for crafting....

To be fair, my advice of "don't spam standard" continues to be in reference to crafts 3-5 ranks above your job. I can see how I was unclear about standard synth for SP grinding. Just want to make a couple of comments on that. First, I prefer to SP on readily available, stackable mats. I tend to start these when my rank is 3-5 below what's recommended for the craft. I enjoy the challenge, as harder crafts do have nominally higher SP gains than easier ones, and I find it's worth the extra time to do a hard craft for 300SP than an easy one for 200SP. But you're right, you can spam standard with less time/effort, for less SP. To each his own.

On 'assured' SP, though, it appears that the median SP gain for a synth is correlated to the quality of the synth. I will admit that this spectrum of SP gain is seemingly random (impactfully so, though, I would argue not). You will get higher SP for higher quality synths. This leads to the issue (which I forgot to mention earlier) that GEAR DAMAGE is also important in 'getting the most out of crafting.' Gear damage lowers the stats yielded by your equipment, and thus affects crafting by lowering the "big 3" crafting attributes. Lower attributes makes crafting harder, inherently reducing quality, and thus indirectly mitigating SP gain. In other words, GEAR DAMAGE does not affect the baseline SP for a successful craft, but does reduce the quality you'll finish the craft with, all else equal, and thus reduces any SP bonus you'd receive from the quality value.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 7:42pm by volta1
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#26 Jan 14 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
uh yeah in beta i thought maybe the timer bar had some affect on synths, but at this point im 90% sure that it doesn't. sorry but this thread just reminds me of the old FFXI "if you run around the goblin he'll miss you with bomb toss" posts. (funny that now in xiv there ARE mob TP moves you can physically avoid. which is awesome. but it would be awesomer with more content)
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#27 Jan 14 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Default
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:

On 'assured' SP, though, it appears that the median SP gain for a synth is correlated to the quality of the synth. I will admit that this spectrum of SP gain is seemingly random (impactfully so, though, I would argue not). You will get higher SP for higher quality synths. This leads to the issue (which I forgot to mention earlier) that GEAR DAMAGE is also important in 'getting the most out of crafting.' Gear damage lowers the stats yielded by your equipment, and thus affects crafting by lowering the "big 3" crafting attributes. Lower attributes makes crafting harder, inherently reducing quality, and thus indirectly mitigating SP gain. In other words, GEAR DAMAGE does not affect the baseline SP for a successful craft, but does reduce the quality you'll finish the craft with, all else equal, and thus reduces any SP bonus you'd receive from the quality value.


There's too much speculative nonsense around crafting right now. And right there is another example of it. At one point I thought maybe finished quality impacted SP. After many, many more synths it became apparent that it does not. At all. You know how you can tell? By getting to know the range of potential SP gains based on the rank of the synth and then simply observing. By the time you've done 2-300 synths of the same item at the same rank you'll easily start to get a feel for what the synth can earn you and then you realize that there's nothing about finished quality that influences the SP gained.

And just between you and me, I don't mind people tossing out speculation and hypothesis as long as it's clearly labeled as such. When it's stated as fact with no proof or even relevant testing, I point it out as such.

Timer bar has no influence on success.

Finished quality has no influence on SP gained.

I'm not interested in arguing. I'm not interested in negotiating. If you want to further the issue, post statistically relevant test results. That's all there is to it. Otherwise, your theory is not fact and you don't do anyone any favors by stating it as such.
#28 Jan 14 2011 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
I thought that 'appears' with regard to quality -> median SP indicated that was an observation. The other stuff about attributes/gear/affinity is fact, and it 'appears' that the community agrees with me.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#29 Jan 14 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
225 posts
1+ dura insures success. When doing 3+ higher than my rank, I use fullfillment, preserve, and maker's muse, and just hit standard spam, why standard spam, it eats the least amount of durability when it fails, plain and simple.

It's durability that dictates your next move, so say if I'm at 60 dura and 90% progress, I'll try a bold for a better score on a higher ranked synth. Learning when you can take risks, come from watching how much durability you can afford to loose.
____________________________


#30 Jan 14 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Default
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
I thought that 'appears' with regard to quality -> median SP indicated that was an observation. The other stuff about attributes/gear/affinity is fact, and it 'appears' that the community agrees with me.


When you follow up "appears" with

Quote:
You will get higher SP for higher quality synths. This leads to the issue (which I forgot to mention earlier) that GEAR DAMAGE is also important in 'getting the most out of crafting.' Gear damage lowers the stats yielded by your equipment, and thus affects crafting by lowering the "big 3" crafting attributes. Lower attributes makes crafting harder, inherently reducing quality, and thus indirectly mitigating SP gain. In other words, GEAR DAMAGE does not affect the baseline SP for a successful craft, but does reduce the quality you'll finish the craft with, all else equal, and thus reduces any SP bonus you'd receive from the quality value.


Too much stated as fact. Too eager to assert theory as fact. Too misleading to people who haven't the time/inclination to figure this stuff out on their own and who will thus spend months/years facing a certain direction when crafting with certain crystals or trying to shoulder check goblins to abort bomb tosses because they read somewhere that it was true. I could start a thread explaining that Lalafel make better tanks for large mobs than Roegadyn because they have a hidden bonus to evasion and I guarantee you at least one person would come along and post that they've noticed the same thing. It's not hard to make the sheep believe. They're easily baffled by *********
#31 Jan 14 2011 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
I'm going to have to agree with Aurelius on this one.

I've done thousands of synths trying different techniques to become more efficient at grinding.

I don't think the 70/30 is as random as you make it out to be. There are many things about this game that we see exist, we just don't know their purpose quite yet. Examples: Risk in crafting; moon phases; elemental days; elemental hours; moon polarity... all of these are current unknowns about the crafting system so for you to come out with this new 'wait' test makes it all seem like a total joke.

Without more information about the game we cannot make such theories.

The effort and thoughts are appreciated but blindly stating theories as facts is not.
____________________________

#32 Jan 14 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
Aurelius wrote:
volta1 wrote:
I thought that 'appears' with regard to quality -> median SP indicated that was an observation. The other stuff about attributes/gear/affinity is fact, and it 'appears' that the community agrees with me.


When you follow up "appears" with

Quote:
You will get higher SP for higher quality synths. This leads to the issue (which I forgot to mention earlier) that GEAR DAMAGE is also important in 'getting the most out of crafting.' Gear damage lowers the stats yielded by your equipment, and thus affects crafting by lowering the "big 3" crafting attributes. Lower attributes makes crafting harder, inherently reducing quality, and thus indirectly mitigating SP gain. In other words, GEAR DAMAGE does not affect the baseline SP for a successful craft, but does reduce the quality you'll finish the craft with, all else equal, and thus reduces any SP bonus you'd receive from the quality value.


Too much stated as fact. Too eager to assert theory as fact. Too misleading to people who haven't the time/inclination to figure this stuff out on their own and who will thus spend months/years facing a certain direction when crafting with certain crystals or trying to shoulder check goblins to abort bomb tosses because they read somewhere that it was true. I could start a thread explaining that Lalafel make better tanks for large mobs than Roegadyn because they have a hidden bonus to evasion and I guarantee you at least one person would come along and post that they've noticed the same thing. It's not hard to make the sheep believe. They're easily baffled by bullsh*t.


It's particularly sad that your experiences in XI (which I never played) have jaded you thusly. But you must acknowledge you are picking apart the semantics of only a very small part of the entirety of what I've posted. It apparently has confused people as several have posted non-sequitur or replies, or some that "take your side" but yet ascribe things I said to you, or vice-versa. Pretty discouraging.

In any event I'll probably end up consolidating all of what is indeed fact (the proof is in the pudding, after all) when it comes to what affects crafting - based upon things SE has said and what I've found works into a wiki page. Then there is no irrelevant banter surrounding it.

I do appreciate your back-and-forth though (really) because it helps me be more clear in what is fact (attribute/gear/element effects on syntheses) and what is theory (quality correlation to SP medians, etc). None of this face SW nonsense.

I'm trying to remain civil, but I do have to say this: FFXIV players/ZAM posters are sheep? Really? Get real, dude.
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#33 Jan 14 2011 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
volta1 wrote:
It's particularly sad that your experiences in XI (which I never played) have jaded you thusly. But you must acknowledge you are picking apart the semantics of only a very small part of the entirety of what I've posted. It apparently has confused people as several have posted non-sequitur or replies, or some that "take your side" but yet ascribe things I said to you, or vice-versa. Pretty discouraging.

In any event I'll probably end up consolidating all of what is indeed fact (the proof is in the pudding, after all) when it comes to what affects crafting - based upon things SE has said and what I've found works into a wiki page. Then there is no irrelevant banter surrounding it.

I do appreciate your back-and-forth though (really) because it helps me be more clear in what is fact (attribute/gear/element effects on syntheses) and what is theory (quality correlation to SP medians, etc). None of this face SW nonsense.

I'm trying to remain civil, but I do have to say this: FFXIV players/ZAM posters are sheep? Really? Get real, dude.


Oddly enough, it's only the XI and now XIV crowd I see trying so hard to find hidden little juicy influences and tricks in straightforward systems. Which is okay I guess. It's not my thing but I'm not going to jump down the throat of someone over an outlandish theory just because they have an outlandish theory. My main thing is preserving the veracity of the information and if that's your interest and a little critical back and forth helps, awesome. Win-win.

As far as the sheep bit goes, anyone who reads something and takes it at face value to the point where they'll argue in favor it it just because they think it makes sense...sheep. That's the textbook definition of the term in this context is people who don't think for themselves and are easily herded and/or led astray.

I remember I had one LS mate right riled up with me because I was minding my own business while he was explaining to a new player the basics of the crafting system and then went on to state as fact that facing a certain direction based on the type of shard/crystal you're using affects outcomes. Because if you open your attributes pane it "shows you" which direction to face with the way the elements are laid out. And because his superficial anecdotal evidence told him it made a difference. Which is all well and good if it's meaningful to him and he's willing to sit down and try to sort out wtf direction he's supposed to face when he's doing a synth with equal numbers of wind and fire or wind and earth shards...but what bothers me is the disregard for the impact it has on a new player who has just been told as fact that this is what they need to take into account if they want to get the most out of their crafting experience. Of course, me being me as soon as he started explaining his little crafter-as-compass theory I stopped minding my own business. And me being me, I wouldn't back down on it. I think he's still mad.

Or telling people that facility support for recipes that don't call for it helps. There's still absolutely no evidence that this is true, but one guy doesn't mind heading off to the guild or the repair NPC or a camp and spending gil they don't need to be spending so now they teach everyone else to do the same. It starts to cross the line into misleading, and that's just not very nice. There's what SE has told us, and then there's speculation. And outside of what SE has told us, speculation is never fact until proven. And when it's communicated as fact without having been proven, it's not helpful. And when it comes down to teaching new people that it's worth their while to run off on these fool's errands and waste gil and time on something that offers no confirmed benefit, one has to ask whether we're passing along that information to be helpful or whether we're just doing it to demonstrate our towering intellect and vast understanding of something. And then of course we see what happens when egos get involved and someone wants so badly to be believed when the submit these hypotheses as fact that they argue and fight tooth and nail to defend what can't be defended.

People will do what they do and they'll have their little rituals and superstitions and that's fine. I just wish they'd be more careful about how they communicate those things.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 9:00pm by Aurelius
#34 Jan 14 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
Fair enough, Aurelius. I think we can actually agree that the time on the SP bar is bogus. You may not agree with quality being correlated to SP, and obviously don't like my suggestion for seeking facilities buffs when available. Fair enough. I still think it's worth the gil, and hope that players are smart enough not to go on "fool's errands" and schedule their tasks efficiently. But we can only hope.

I still think the info I laid out is useful, as it sure has been to me, moreso than 'meh, crafting is RNG, there's no hope.' I'm willing to consolidate the 'facts' and openly opine on theories in a wiki page. At least in that, there's something to throw the darts at and hopefully the community is able to reverse-engineer how the system actually works.

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 12:09am by volta1
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#35 Jan 14 2011 at 11:12 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,426 posts
Quote:
Or telling people that facility support for recipes that don't call for it helps. There's still absolutely no evidence that this is true


I'm not disputing this at all but it has always raised this question for me: why does the repair npc give you support when you tell him you want to repair your own stuff? does support factor in to repairs? i assume it must. but actually i don't because you can't assume anything in this game and unfortunately i don't mean that in a good way in this case.
____________________________
monk
dragoon

#36 Jan 14 2011 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
447 posts
Llester wrote:
Quote:
Or telling people that facility support for recipes that don't call for it helps. There's still absolutely no evidence that this is true


I'm not disputing this at all but it has always raised this question for me: why does the repair npc give you support when you tell him you want to repair your own stuff? does support factor in to repairs? i assume it must. but actually i don't because you can't assume anything in this game and unfortunately i don't mean that in a good way in this case.


In my experience, it has, yes. And it's not a huge conclusion to jump to based upon based upon the text of the NPC (you know, the 'content' in the game).

But unless a PhD statistician analyzes log parser dat files, or SE spoonfeeds us information explicitly, there will always be those who are reluctant to do a little theorycrafting on their own.

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 12:17am by volta1
____________________________
Djigga, please. Highland Hyurs can't jump.

#37 Jan 14 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
25 posts
volta1 wrote:

Third: do not spam standard. Let me repeat - DO NOT SPAM STANDARD! Make sure you have useful R10 abilities equipped - my personal favorite are ALC's 'Preserve' and TAN's 'Fulfillment'. I've been basically ridiculed on these forums for asserting the crafting system is "intricate", but it really is. Element Stability, Aetherial color, and Aetherial sparking, in addition to the player's element affinities, all affect crafting progress and outcome. Learning how to use these intricacies at your advantage is key to being a good crafter.

I also noticed that with game music off the crystal thing "hums" at different frequencies, changing at the start of a turn. I haven't been able to pin it to a color as I've heard different frequencies for the same color so maybe it has something to do with possible success rate?



I also noticed that with game music off the crystal thing "hums" at different frequencies, changing at the start of a turn. I haven't been able to pin it to a color as I've heard different frequencies for the same color so maybe it has something to do with possible success rate?
[/quote]


Edited, Jan 15th 2011 12:28am by BullMagnus
____________________________
[link=
#38 Jan 15 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
Llester wrote:
Quote:
Or telling people that facility support for recipes that don't call for it helps. There's still absolutely no evidence that this is true


I'm not disputing this at all but it has always raised this question for me: why does the repair npc give you support when you tell him you want to repair your own stuff? does support factor in to repairs? i assume it must. but actually i don't because you can't assume anything in this game and unfortunately i don't mean that in a good way in this case.


There's no reliable way to test whether it helps or not. And by that I mean that to do a proper test would be impractical without an inordinate amount of time. That's the trouble with convoluted systems...they're extremely difficult to test.

volta1 wrote:
In my experience, it has, yes. And it's not a huge conclusion to jump to based upon based upon the text of the NPC (you know, the 'content' in the game).

But unless a PhD statistician analyzes log parser dat files, or SE spoonfeeds us information explicitly, there will always be those who are reluctant to do a little theorycrafting on their own.


Sounds to me like you're starting to get a little defensive. The text of the NPC in the game says nothing whatsoever about access to facilities helping with repair outcomes. We could just as easily say based solely on what the repair NPC text tells you that you can't repair gear at all without the facility support buff he offers. But if that were the hypothesis...that you need the common facility support buff from the NPC to repair at all...we could easily disprove it by pointing to the thousands of repairs that DoH classes carry out on a daily basis with no support buff whatsoever. It's not so easy to prove that it helps. There are other reasons why SE might allow access to common facility support from the repair NPC, but SE being who they are, the odds of them coming out and announcing whether it helps or not are highly unlikely unless Yoshida takes an entirely different approach to things than Tanaka ever did. So based on your experience, it helps. And that's fine. Based on my experience, it doesn't. And since you're not saying in absolute terms that it does help, it's a non-issue. Had you stated it in absolute terms, it would be a different discussion.
#39 Jan 15 2011 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
225 posts
It's amazing how something as minor as adding tooltips to each of the stats, would take alot of randomness out of crafting. Then theorycrafting would actually be legitament. Also, removing "optimal" rank from synthing would help, exact rank is more precise. It's not like battling classes have optimal cons on mobs.



Edited, Jan 15th 2011 8:07am by Spyrit178
____________________________


#40 Jan 15 2011 at 12:01 PM Rating: Default
***
1,608 posts
Kidding aside, these are the finding I have discovered from personal experience.

Your Rank vs. Synth's Rank
*Closer you are and higher than synth's rank...
**Increases Chance of Success
**Increases Chance of Perfect (no durability loss)
**Decreases Chance of Unstable


Craftsmanship / Mag. Craftsmanship
*Increases your success rate
*Increases your progress % (cap is 20, 30, 10)
*Increases your durability loss on successes and marginals a small degree (cap is 10)


Control
*Decreases Durability loss on fail (~3+-1 control for 1 durability)
*Decreases chance of unstable and shortens duration of unstable


Favored Stats
*Increases Success Rate
*Increases Chance for Perfect
*The two favored stats for each class is averaged. (Stat1:40, Stat2:60 = Stat1:50, Stat2: 50)


Moon Phase
*Moon Phase is broken down into 5 phases that effect crafting.
**Full Moon - +2 Rank Support, -10% High Quality
**3/4 Moon - +1 Rank Support, -5% High Quality
**Half Moon - No Effect
**1/4 Moon - -1 Rank Support, +5% High Quality
**New Moon - -2 Rank Support, +10% High Quality
____________________________

#42 Jan 15 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
AkumaOokami wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Llester wrote:
Quote:
Or telling people that facility support for recipes that don't call for it helps. There's still absolutely no evidence that this is true


I'm not disputing this at all but it has always raised this question for me: why does the repair npc give you support when you tell him you want to repair your own stuff? does support factor in to repairs? i assume it must. but actually i don't because you can't assume anything in this game and unfortunately i don't mean that in a good way in this case.


There's no reliable way to test whether it helps or not. And by that I mean that to do a proper test would be impractical without an inordinate amount of time. That's the trouble with convoluted systems...they're extremely difficult to test.

volta1 wrote:
In my experience, it has, yes. And it's not a huge conclusion to jump to based upon based upon the text of the NPC (you know, the 'content' in the game).

But unless a PhD statistician analyzes log parser dat files, or SE spoonfeeds us information explicitly, there will always be those who are reluctant to do a little theorycrafting on their own.


Sounds to me like you're starting to get a little defensive. The text of the NPC in the game says nothing whatsoever about access to facilities helping with repair outcomes. We could just as easily say based solely on what the repair NPC text tells you that you can't repair gear at all without the facility support buff he offers. But if that were the hypothesis...that you need the common facility support buff from the NPC to repair at all...we could easily disprove it by pointing to the thousands of repairs that DoH classes carry out on a daily basis with no support buff whatsoever. It's not so easy to prove that it helps. There are other reasons why SE might allow access to common facility support from the repair NPC, but SE being who they are, the odds of them coming out and announcing whether it helps or not are highly unlikely unless Yoshida takes an entirely different approach to things than Tanaka ever did. So based on your experience, it helps. And that's fine. Based on my experience, it doesn't. And since you're not saying in absolute terms that it does help, it's a non-issue. Had you stated it in absolute terms, it would be a different discussion.


I'm going to go ahead and agree with Volt, too lazy to type, but I've saw what he has said factor out into crafting many times. Not 100% percent of the time, but many times.

And if Guild support doesn't help you, then why is it called Guild SUPPORT? Why not Guild Randomness/You Don't Really Need This/This Pointless. Because it helps.


Common, Guild, and Masters level support, do not appear to affect any synthesis that they are not required for. Albeit I have only a sample size of about 500/500 Oak Half Masks and 100/100 Yew Half Masks over about 6 levels of CRP. I alternated between sets for several levels to see if it did have any affect on synths it wasn't required for, and the results lead me to beleive they do not. I have 4 abilities set for all the attempts Preserve, Fulfillment, Maker's Muse and Epiphany. The results were that progress gains per group (Success, Fail, Crit Fail, and Crit Success) were relatively similar (+/- .2 on average over the sets, highest outlier of .6), occurence of each outcome (Success, Fail, Crit Fail, and Crit Success) was relatively similar on each group (+/- 3 occurences on average with no strong correlation to either having or not having support). Durability loss on fails was roughly +/-.4 on average. Each time I gained a level I started a new data pool, each time any peice of gear was damaged I had it repaired, if damage occurred mid synth I omitted the results of the synth entirely. All tests occured with the same gear and all with Main Hand Bas-Relief Iron Saw +1.

Edit: All tests either used no support or master's level support.

Edited, Jan 15th 2011 1:11pm by Manosuke
____________________________
[quote]Capitalism Ho, ******************************************************************************** in /K/ where /K/lik is the new spam.[/url][/b]
Try out Eve free for a few weeks :D
#43 Jan 15 2011 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
AkumaOokami wrote:

I'm going to go ahead and agree with Volt, too lazy to type, but I've saw what he has said factor out into crafting many times. Not 100% percent of the time, but many times.


See, there's the difficulty. The tendency that I see manifest over and over again is that someone will come up with a theory based on results that they've observed. And then they'll set out to "test" that theory but they don't do enough testing. And what's worse is that every time they see results that serve to further prove their theory they take it as proof, and every time they see results that would serve to disprove their theory, they discard those results. "Unlucky," they'll say. "That was totally random so that doesn't count," they'll say. And you can't do that. In order to prove the theory, you have to be able to produce consistent results and you have to be able to concretely explain outliers, otherwise your findings are useless.

Let's take the theory that finished quality impacts SP gained as example. If you do one synth for relatively high quality and get a relatively high SP gain from it, you would look at that as proof that quality impacts SP. But then if you do another synth with high quality and your SP gain is relatively low, that's not something you cast aside as, "Well, that one doesn't prove it so lets do another one and see..." No, you just experienced an indicator that SP gain does not impact quality. And when you do that enough times over the course of enough synths, all of a sudden you start to observe other things. Like how SP gain has a median value and the actual gain on a synth by synth basis can be +/- 60-70 SP. If you're doing a rank 20 recipe at rank 20 the median value might be ~250 and you may see SP gains anywhere between 180 and 320. But if you have a theory that you believe is accurate and you see 312 SP from a higher finished quality and your next synth is lower quality and you get 280 SP, have you proven anything? No. Because there's another equally valid explanation for what you just saw. And that equally valid explanation also explains how you can finish one synth with > 300 quality for a below-median SP gain and do another synth for < 20 finished quality for above-median SP.

That's why, when it comes to asserting theory as fact, anecdotal evidence doesn't cut it. How do you explain finishing a synth with a finished quality of 12 and getting 300+ SP and then finishing one with a finished quality of > 200 and getting 220? Does that mean we start making things even more convoluted while we cling to our original theory or does that mean we've uncovered proof that our theory may not be as accurate as we had hoped?

If you can't explain the exceptions to the rule defined by your theory, you can't prove your theory.

Quote:
And if Guild support doesn't help you, then why is it called Guild SUPPORT? Why not Guild Randomness/You Don't Really Need This/This Pointless. Because it helps.


It helps you when the recipe calls for it, just like training books help you when the recipe calls for it. Nobody has ever put forward any meaningful testing that indicates facility support helps when the recipe doesn't call for it, but you can see the penalty applied to synthesis outcomes when a recipe calls for support and you don't get it. See the difference? You have no proof that it helps but here you are saying that it does because that's how you interpret the name? Really? I'm sorry, but your rationale is unacceptable. You've offered no proof, you haven't even offered anecdotal evidence. Using your rationale, we could say that facility support only helps when you get it from the guild because...well...do you SEE any facilities around the repair NPC or at any of the camps?
#45 Jan 15 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
AkumaOokami wrote:
Your theory of randomness goes both ways, because you get less SP doesn't in fact mean that higher quality synths don't yeild more SP as opposed to lesser quality synths.


If higher quality resulted in higher SP, it would be readily observable. It is not, however, except for people who are more than willing to discount those outcomes that disprove their theory in favor of those outcomes that prove it. That's the point. There's a difference between putting forward a theory as theory and putting forward a theory as fact. It's not fact until it's proven, and the methods people use to test are usually unacceptable.

Quote:
I think what Volt is trying to say is that, absolutely, one hundred and ten percent, there are beneficial ways to crafting whether you think it's random or not. However, whether you succeed or not HAS a random factor to it. You can have near perfect attributes and still fail. It's a low chance to fail, but you still can because, like YOU said, it's a flip of a coin. a 95 to 5% flip of a coin, but a flip of a coin none the less.


I never said there weren't "beneficial ways to crafting". What I said was that Volt was downplaying the random influence, when in fact the random influence is present in every action you take. There is no 100% guaranteed way to succeed at any given action because of the random influence, and as such there is no 100% guaranteed way to finish any given synthesis. As I said...weighted coin toss, but still heavily influenced by random systems. And when you throw in the destabilized elements into those random outcomes, it just makes the whole process worse. I'm not talking about chances to succeed, I'm talking about playability. I'm talking about the irritation factor that comes from having all of this random **** go wrong and all you're trying to do is grind some SP. And the control you might want to think you have is illusory, because you never truly have control over the outcome.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 24 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (24)