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#52 Jan 13 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know, we start locking, nuking, moving threads, then we're not letting you guys express your opinions. We let conversations take their course and we aren't doing enough. You realize that if someone isn't going sub-default, that means enough people are rating them up to counter act the rate downs. Not that that matters a great deal, I highly suspect most of you have the forums configured to show sub-default as well and therefore would see the posts anyway.

I've posted this thread in the admin IRC channel to get other opinions, but personally, if I were you, less moderation would be better. However, if enough want it we can start wielding the nuke stick and see what happens.
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#53 Jan 13 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Yeah I was in the beta test this past weekend. I have a screen shot of their version of a murloc if you'd like to see it.


I was in the beta this past weekend as well and I had fun. A lot of fun, actually. See, I don't get my knickers in a knot because I see things that are similar to other games. I didn't flame SE up and down for copying race models from one title to the next, I didn't start an "ignore FFXI posters" thread when everyone was jumping up and down demanding xp loss for death and group-onry and all that. I don't necessarily like to see SE borrowing from a game I grew to despise but my criticisms of FFXIV are more to do with how the game plays and the fact that there seems like so little to do that has any significant entertainment value. See the difference? I played in the Rift beta and saw a lot of neat things that have a lot of polish backed by a company that regularly communicates with its players. I was satisfied. I played in the FFXIV open beta and bought the game and all I ever really saw was a pretty world and potential. And I learned from it. I won't buy any more MMOs based solely on potential like I did with FFXIV, but now that I've got the game I check around from time to time to see what (if anything) SE has done with it. So far, nothing since the December updates which were features that we were told about last October.
#54 Jan 13 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Thank you for your response, Wint. I wont link the thread that this one spawned from as I've already reported the obviously offending posts. But I do think that it should be included in your discussion of this issue.

Edit: There are instances now in this thread as well, obviously meant as flame bait.

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 2:29pm by taliph
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#55 Jan 13 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:

It seems to me that civil discussion would include acceptance of points of view that are formed in part from experiences in other games.

That's all well and good, the trouble is there are way too **** many posts on here about WoW machanics, or which WoW expansion is better for example, that make no relation what-so-ever to FFXIV.


Wait a second, here. FFXIV is broken. It's incomplete. It lacks a great many things and of those things it does have, many of them are poorly done. And you think that people are in the wrong for referencing successful mechanics from other games? No.

That's not even close to what I said actually. If the comment is relating a mechanic in wow to a mechanic in FFXIV and how FFXIV can be improved, I really have no problem with it. But I don't give a rat's *** about which WoW expansion is best, if Rift is a WoW clone or not, or what could and could not be done in the vanilla version of WoW. Those discussions do not belong here.

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 4:32pm by Jefro420
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#56 Jan 13 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wint wrote:
You know, we start locking, nuking, moving threads, then we're not letting you guys express your opinions. We let conversations take their course and we aren't doing enough. You realize that if someone isn't going sub-default, that means enough people are rating them up to counter act the rate downs. Not that that matters a great deal, I highly suspect most of you have the forums configured to show sub-default as well and therefore would see the posts anyway.

I've posted this thread in the admin IRC channel to get other opinions, but personally, if I were you, less moderation would be better. However, if enough want it we can start wielding the nuke stick and see what happens.


The part in bold is highly misleading. Even with filters on, sub-default posts are visible. In fact, the filter changes the color of sub-default posts, making them eye-catching. This is the definition of "highlighting". So, I respectfully disagree that sub-defaulting threads is an effective means of moderation. Add that to the mentality that some people actually TRY to get themselves sub-default as well as the fact that people will rate up sub-default threads in spite further shows how the karma system is an in-adequate form of moderation.

So while we can debate how much moderation there should be, the karma system is a joke of a moderation system.
#57 Jan 13 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Without regard to Rift, because I haven't played it and therefore have no opinion beyond "I think the UI looks too much like WoW for my liking", I do agree that he has a point in the latter part of his post.

In regards to the thread derails... to be fair, I didn't start any of the WoW content derails (although I did participate in the first one). As for my single player RPG derail... perhaps it wasn't intentional, but I'm pleased with where it took the thread, derail or not.


But you'll note that in this thread, it's apparently about derails, of which "WoW posters" are apparently the worst offenders, yet the most egregious derailment on the front page right now is the one in the MMO Mentality thread. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the OP is singling out one group to be put on ignore for doing what happens all throughout the boards over any number of topics. I'm not complaining about derails. The OP is...but only if it's about WoW. Or something. I dunno. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know, either.
#58 Jan 13 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
Wint wrote:
You know, we start locking, nuking, moving threads, then we're not letting you guys express your opinions. We let conversations take their course and we aren't doing enough. You realize that if someone isn't going sub-default, that means enough people are rating them up to counter act the rate downs. Not that that matters a great deal, I highly suspect most of you have the forums configured to show sub-default as well and therefore would see the posts anyway.

I've posted this thread in the admin IRC channel to get other opinions, but personally, if I were you, less moderation would be better. However, if enough want it we can start wielding the nuke stick and see what happens.


The part in bold is highly misleading. Even with filters on, sub-default posts are visible. In fact, the filter changes the color of sub-default posts, making them eye-catching. This is the definition of "highlighting". So, I respectfully disagree that sub-defaulting threads is an effective means of moderation. Add that to the mentality that some people actually TRY to get themselves sub-default as well as the fact that people will rate up sub-default threads in spite further shows how the karma system is an in-adequate form of moderation.

So while we can debate how much moderation there should be, the karma system is a joke of a moderation system.


I'll check with the devs, I thought they were supposed to be made invisible.

I know the thread taliph, if it's the one that was reported like 10 times earlier Smiley: smile
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#59 Jan 13 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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The UI was WoW with UI addons, the questgivers all had ! over their heads, they held your hand the entire way. The rifts became repetitive, three talent trees, badge gear from the get go, reputation gears. Although the collections was an EQ thing. Then the last straw came, when I went to the beach and saw their interpretation of a murloc, not to mention one of the rift rewards changed me into one. Mounts at 20. It was polished alright, but Blizzard did the polishing for them.

The graphics were only a step up from where WoWs begins. I did my job reported the bugs, and ended the weekend feeling there was no inovation whatsoever. WoW clone is an understatement.
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#60 Jan 13 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Default
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Jefro420 wrote:
[That's not even close to what I said actually. If the comment is relating a mechanic in wow to a mechanic in FFXIV and how FFXIV can be improved, I really have no problem with it. But I don't give a rat's *** about which WoW expansion is best, if Rift is a WoW clone or not, or what could and could not be done in the vanilla version of WoW. Those discussions do not belong here.


********* You started a thread specifically singling out one group of people to be put on ignore saying they're the "worst" offenders and you don't care because it doesn't belong in the XIV forums but you make no goddam mention of the other derails at all until I call you on it. You could have edited your OP and/or your thread title when it was pointed out to you that you're singling out one group for a problem that goes far beyond that group but you're still on your little crusade. I could just as successfully argue that whether Xenogears was better than FFVI doesn't belong here but you don't see me making threads singling out the "console posters", do you?

You're a hypocrite and your intolerance makes me sick. It's people like YOU who need to have their posts nuked/moved and their threads locked...not the people trying to carry on "civil discussions" around tangentially related topics.
#61 Jan 13 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
But you'll note that in this thread, it's apparently about derails, of which "WoW posters" are apparently the worst offenders, yet the most egregious derailment on the front page right now is the one in the MMO Mentality thread. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the OP is singling out one group to be put on ignore for doing what happens all throughout the boards over any number of topics. I'm not complaining about derails. The OP is...but only if it's about WoW. Or something. I dunno. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know, either.

Since your reading comprehension skills are clearly sub par, let me put this on a level you will hopefully understand. This is not solely about WoW. It's about those posts which only purpose is to derail a thread, or add nothing constructive to the discussions at hand. More times than not it seems these are the very same people who constantly complain, or who turn perfectly valid discussions about the mechanics of FFXIV into a flame war.

Yes I used WoW as an example, sorry I that offended your Blizzard Fanboy sensibilities.

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 4:43pm by Jefro420
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#62 Jan 13 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Without regard to Rift, because I haven't played it and therefore have no opinion beyond "I think the UI looks too much like WoW for my liking", I do agree that he has a point in the latter part of his post.

In regards to the thread derails... to be fair, I didn't start any of the WoW content derails (although I did participate in the first one). As for my single player RPG derail... perhaps it wasn't intentional, but I'm pleased with where it took the thread, derail or not.


But you'll note that in this thread, it's apparently about derails, of which "WoW posters" are apparently the worst offenders, yet the most egregious derailment on the front page right now is the one in the MMO Mentality thread. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the OP is singling out one group to be put on ignore for doing what happens all throughout the boards over any number of topics. I'm not complaining about derails. The OP is...but only if it's about WoW. Or something. I dunno. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know, either.


As I understand it, and obviously I'm not the OP so I could be wrong, his points are thus:

There's nothing wrong with comparing FFXIV to another game (be it WoW or Rift or FFXI or whatever) but it's another matter to turn it into an entire discussion of another game that isn't FFXIV, wherein the discussion no longer has anything to do about FFXIV anymore.

As for the single player MMORPG derail in the MMO Mentality thread, perhaps I could be biased because it was at least partially my fault, but a derail is a derail.

I think the OP specifically singled out WoW because there are more WoW related derails than anything else. I believe I've seen WoW derails in at least four threads in the last two days, compared to the frequency of derails that are not WoW related. I think the OP had good intentions but perhaps went about it poorly.

As for the idea of nuking... IMO leave it alone. Here's what I said in IRC:

(4:32:08 PM) Mikhalia_Work: it's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" things
(4:32:27 PM) Mikhalia_Work: ultimately what it boils down to is that people just want "Posts I don't want to read" nuked so that NO ONE can read them
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#63 Jan 13 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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There's a difference between derailment and the natural evolution of a discussion.

Let's take cheese for example.

Derail: People for no apparent reason start discussing their favorite kind of cheese in a thread about what gear is best for a Thaumaturge.

Natural progression: Someone starts a thread about in-game cuisine. Four pages deep someone mentions they prefer using a specific food item because it contains munster and that's their favorite cheese in real life. People then begin talking about recipes in-game with their favorite kind of cheese and eventually the thread, two pages later, is about o ly real world cheese.

I'd liken the recent few WoW-heavy threads to a natural progression of a lengthy discussion rather than a derailment. We're a social species and want to convey our ideas, naturally when so many people participate, it's going to change directions.

At least it stays in a thread a few pages deep and isn't it's own post.

Once SE gives us something to talk about, WoW expansion debates will go back to being troll fodder. What else ARE we supposed to talk about in the general forums? How awesome leves are?
#64 Jan 13 2011 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm actually looking at something more like a warning, then a temp ban, then a full ban...

no sense in mucking up the database any worse then the derailments are already.
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#65 Jan 13 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

(4:32:08 PM) Mikhalia_Work: it's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" things
(4:32:27 PM) Mikhalia_Work: ultimately what it boils down to is that people just want "Posts I don't want to read" nuked so that NO ONE can read them


If ignore and sub-default filters worked properly, this wouldn't be an issue. As I've stated before however, filtering only serves to highlight the "filtered" threads/posts. If they were truly invisible we wouldn't be having these debates.
#66 Jan 13 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Default
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Sephrick wrote:
There's a difference between derailment and the natural evolution of a discussion.

Let's take cheese for example.

Derail: People for no apparent reason start discussing their favorite kind of cheese in a thread about what gear is best for a Thaumaturge.

Natural progression: Someone starts a thread about in-game cuisine. Four pages deep someone mentions they prefer using a specific food item because it contains munster and that's their favorite cheese in real life. People then begin talking about recipes in-game with their favorite kind of cheese and eventually the thread, two pages later, is about o ly real world cheese.

I'd liken the recent few WoW-heavy threads to a natural progression of a lengthy discussion rather than a derailment. We're a social species and want to convey our ideas, naturally when so many people participate, it's going to change directions.

At least it stays in a thread a few pages deep and isn't it's own post.

Once SE gives us something to talk about, WoW expansion debates will go back to being troll fodder. What else ARE we supposed to talk about in the general forums? How awesome leves are?

Leves are pretty fun, the best are when you disconnect randomly from them
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#67 Jan 13 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Default
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Spyrit178 wrote:
The UI was WoW with UI addons, the questgivers all had ! over their heads, they held your hand the entire way. The rifts became repetitive, three talent trees, badge gear from the get go, reputation gears. Although the collections was an EQ thing. Then the last straw came, when I went to the beach and saw their interpretation of a murloc, not to mention one of the rift rewards changed me into one. Mounts at 20. It was polished alright, but Blizzard did the polishing for them.

The graphics were only a step up from where WoWs begins. I did my job reported the bugs, and ended the weekend feeling there was no inovation whatsoever. WoW clone is an understatement.


Ya, but it's going to have more paying subs the first month after launch than XIV does, so obviously they're doing something right. And in doing so they set an example that developers whose games are failing could learn from in some way or another.
#68 Jan 13 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not sure how discussing another games mechanics in terms of another game (such as Rift for example) that's not FFXIV does anything to add to a discussion about FFXIV. This is the FFXIV general discussion forum.

If you want a truly general discussion forum, here it is:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=28
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#69 Jan 13 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Jefro420 wrote:
I'm not sure how discussing another games mechanics in terms of another game (such as Rift for example) that's not FFXIV does anything to add to a discussion about FFXIV. This is the FFXIV general discussion forum.

If you want a truly general discussion forum, here it is:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=28


So, basically, you want to discuss FFXIV in the same vacuum in which SE designed it? We all saw how well that turned out.
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#70Aurelius, Posted: Jan 13 2011 at 3:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Then maybe leverage your superior literacy skills to state your point properly instead of just being a douche, how about that?
#71 Jan 13 2011 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

As I understand it, and obviously I'm not the OP so I could be wrong, his points are thus:

There's nothing wrong with comparing FFXIV to another game (be it WoW or Rift or FFXI or whatever) but it's another matter to turn it into an entire discussion of another game that isn't FFXIV, wherein the discussion no longer has anything to do about FFXIV anymore.

As for the single player MMORPG derail in the MMO Mentality thread, perhaps I could be biased because it was at least partially my fault, but a derail is a derail.

I think the OP specifically singled out WoW because there are more WoW related derails than anything else. I believe I've seen WoW derails in at least four threads in the last two days, compared to the frequency of derails that are not WoW related. I think the OP had good intentions but perhaps went about it poorly.

As for the idea of nuking... IMO leave it alone. Here's what I said in IRC:

(4:32:08 PM) Mikhalia_Work: it's one of those "damned if you do, damned if you don't" things
(4:32:27 PM) Mikhalia_Work: ultimately what it boils down to is that people just want "Posts I don't want to read" nuked so that NO ONE can read them


What the OP said in his first post and what he now apparently means are two entirely different things. His first post is calling for people who derail with mention of WoW to be ignored. Now he's backpeddling and crying that that's not what he meant because blah blah blah blah
#72 Jan 13 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
But you'll note that in this thread, it's apparently about derails, of which "WoW posters" are apparently the worst offenders, yet the most egregious derailment on the front page right now is the one in the MMO Mentality thread. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the OP is singling out one group to be put on ignore for doing what happens all throughout the boards over any number of topics. I'm not complaining about derails. The OP is...but only if it's about WoW. Or something. I dunno. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know, either.


Since your reading comprehension skills are clearly sub par, let me put this on a level you will hopefully understand. This is not solely about WoW.


The thread title would seem to suggest otherwise.


Jesus f-ing Christ man, use you brain. WoW is used as an example in the topic title.
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#73 Jan 13 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Jefro420 wrote:
I'm not sure how discussing another games mechanics in terms of another game (such as Rift for example) that's not FFXIV does anything to add to a discussion about FFXIV. This is the FFXIV general discussion forum.

If you want a truly general discussion forum, here it is:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=28


Here's what I don't like in FFXIV: blah blah blah

Here's an example of something I did like from another game: blah blah blah

That's how it works. Still having a hard time figuring it out?
#74 Jan 13 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
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Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
But you'll note that in this thread, it's apparently about derails, of which "WoW posters" are apparently the worst offenders, yet the most egregious derailment on the front page right now is the one in the MMO Mentality thread. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the OP is singling out one group to be put on ignore for doing what happens all throughout the boards over any number of topics. I'm not complaining about derails. The OP is...but only if it's about WoW. Or something. I dunno. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know, either.


Since your reading comprehension skills are clearly sub par, let me put this on a level you will hopefully understand. This is not solely about WoW.


The thread title would seem to suggest otherwise.


Jesus f-ing Christ man, use you brain. WoW is used as an example in the topic title.


As an example? You're making an explicit call to ignore WoW posters. That's not an example. Change your ******* thread title if it's not what you meant to say.
#75 Jan 13 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Default
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I hate wow,it screwed up the whole genre,now everything is made for casuals.

F#%"% facebook games like wow,rift,gw,etc.

If you are a real mmo player,there is no way you could say wow is better than FFXIV.
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#76 Jan 13 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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dont kid yourself, Aurelius, even if he did change the title, even if he totally re-wrote his entire OP, you would still stick yet another strawman out there. Sticking words in people's mouths does not make them wrong.
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#77Aurelius, Posted: Jan 13 2011 at 4:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I haven't put words in anyone's mouth. When you're done being ludicrous, let me know.
#78 Jan 13 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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TheonVenethiel wrote:
I hate wow,it screwed up the whole genre,now everything is made for casuals.

F#%"% facebook games like wow,rift,gw,etc.

If you are a real mmo player,there is no way you could say wow is better than FFXIV.


You're actually serious, aren't you? Yikes.
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#79 Jan 13 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
But you'll note that in this thread, it's apparently about derails, of which "WoW posters" are apparently the worst offenders, yet the most egregious derailment on the front page right now is the one in the MMO Mentality thread. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the OP is singling out one group to be put on ignore for doing what happens all throughout the boards over any number of topics. I'm not complaining about derails. The OP is...but only if it's about WoW. Or something. I dunno. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know, either.


Since your reading comprehension skills are clearly sub par, let me put this on a level you will hopefully understand. This is not solely about WoW.


The thread title would seem to suggest otherwise.


Jesus f-ing Christ man, use you brain. WoW is used as an example in the topic title.


yikes...the anger...

Kids read these forums...it maybe time for you to have a "time-out".

The White Knights of FFXIV are getting down right mean.
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#80 Jan 13 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
But you'll note that in this thread, it's apparently about derails, of which "WoW posters" are apparently the worst offenders, yet the most egregious derailment on the front page right now is the one in the MMO Mentality thread. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy that the OP is singling out one group to be put on ignore for doing what happens all throughout the boards over any number of topics. I'm not complaining about derails. The OP is...but only if it's about WoW. Or something. I dunno. I'm pretty sure he doesn't know, either.


Since your reading comprehension skills are clearly sub par, let me put this on a level you will hopefully understand. This is not solely about WoW.


The thread title would seem to suggest otherwise.


Jesus f-ing Christ man, use you brain. WoW is used as an example in the topic title.


I'm not trying to argue the point about thread derailment in general, even if I am at least partially responsible for them, but notice that your OP specifically lists WoW and only WoW as the offender. It doesn't list Rift or DDO or FFXI. It doesn't call me out for the "Best SE game" derail; it only mentions WoW players. Specifically, and I'm quoting: "add the WoW posters to your ignore list"

To be fair, I don't disagree with the original point you were trying to make (regarding not wanting to see threads derail into discussions about something that has nothing to do with the OP), but the wording of your sig would imply that you -are- explicitly calling out any post that discusses WoW.

Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever, with "Take your WoW discussions elsewhere, nobody here cares."

I agree that you have a point if your point is against -any- derails but your OP and thread title and your sig mention WoW and only WoW and nothing else but WoW. If you claim that isn't what you meant, surely you can understand how people could see it that way?
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#81 Jan 13 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
Jefro420 wrote:
I'm not sure how discussing another games mechanics in terms of another game (such as Rift for example) that's not FFXIV does anything to add to a discussion about FFXIV. This is the FFXIV general discussion forum.

If you want a truly general discussion forum, here it is:

http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?forum=28


Here's what I don't like in FFXIV: blah blah blah

Here's an example of something I did like from another game: blah blah blah

That's how it works. Still having a hard time figuring it out?

And I don't have a problem if the posts were like that, trouble is, they are not.
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#82 Jan 13 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever
It is abrasive, I meant it that way. I'm in a ****** mood today, if I haven't made that abundantly clear. lol
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#83 Jan 13 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Rift will turn out to hold the attention of bored WoW kiddies, until Blizzard makes it's next MMO. But as someone who is fed up with WoW, I will not give them my money on something extremely simular to something I am already sick of playing. If I want to play WoW I will play WoW, not a carbon copy.
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#84Ostia, Posted: Jan 13 2011 at 4:10 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So since we cant talk about World of warcraft, what do you oh HOLY! JEFRO! Want us lowly mortals to talk about, how much fun and HUGE SUCCESS this game is ?
#85 Jan 13 2011 at 4:10 PM Rating: Default
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Jefro420 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever
It is abrasive, I meant it that way. I'm in a ****** mood today, if I haven't made that abundantly clear. lol


SO in other words, you're just trolling. Thanks for clearing that up.
#86 Jan 13 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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taliph wrote:
dont kid yourself, Aurelius, even if he did change the title, even if he totally re-wrote his entire OP, you would still stick yet another strawman out there. Sticking words in people's mouths does not make them wrong.


I've argued with Aurelius in the past and I've called him out on a lot of what I felt were strawman arguments. In this case, I don't think he's totally off-base though.

Even if the OP is being honest when he says this isn't "only about WoW posters", he really makes it seem like it is.

Of course the challenge to this, if you really want to see it, is to address it directly. Let's see the OP modify their thread title and OP and sig to convey their point without mentioning WoW specifically and let's see if Aurelius keeps arguing about it.

That would certainly prove pretty definitively whether he would "still stick yet another strawman out there" wouldn't it? And if the OP's gripe is in fact with thread derails and not with WoW specifically, why is there the hesitation to go back and edit to clarify what was actually meant? I mean, if I say "I hate chocolate milk" and Aurelius says "What the **** do you have against milk?" when I was really talking about the chocolate, I have no problem going back and editing it to "I hate when milk is chocolate flavored" and then proceed to explain that "I never said I hated milk; I said I hated chocolate milk. It's not my fault you assumed I meant all milk".

I really don't get the big real about editing something that could easily be misunderstood while simultaneously arguing that your point was missed. I'm not saying don't argue that someone is missing the point; just that you should clarify your point at the same time.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#87 Jan 13 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
So, basically, you want to discuss FFXIV in the same vacuum in which SE designed it? We all saw how well that turned out.


I ******* lol'd.

@OP - Most of the people posting about WoW at all are only doing so as a frame of reference to some feature or another; derails don't start until some tightass prick such as yourself comes in, sees that WoW--or any feature that's present in WoW, good or bad--was mentioned, takes the whole discussion out of context, and tells the poster(s) to go back to WoW and that it has no place on an FFXIV forum, even though discussions of ways to improve FFXIV are perfectly valid. Then some other ******* chimes in about how WoW is ezmode since (whatever expansion they stopped playing at). Then someone tries to correct him. Then a bigger ******* comes in and calls everyone scrubs because WoW's always been ezmode and he should know because he's in the top 5% of players (and seriously, while they may be good at the game, they're out of touch with the majority of players, because the only thing that matters to them is performance; girls and getting along with your guildmates are distant 2nds and 3rds, respectively) who killed VanCleef pre-nerf and that heroic instances that awarded blue gear couldn't be done in blue gear, and then things just go to **** from there.

You know how to avoid this kind of thing in the future? Stop telling people who want to see this game get better to go and play another game. If I really felt like playing WoW forever, I would not be here on these forums at all.

Can't you see? We're not trying to make a WoW clone; we're plotting our escape.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#88 Jan 13 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever, with "Take your WoW discussions elsewhere, nobody here cares."

I agree that you have a point if your point is against -any- derails but your OP and thread title and your sig mention WoW and only WoW and nothing else but WoW. If you claim that isn't what you meant, surely you can understand how people could see it that way?


Maybe some of us don't care about WoW and would actually be happy to never see another mention of it in these forums - derail or not. I personally am sick of it. Yes, I am sure some people think the features are great w/e - but why does every game have to do the same **** thing? I don't care what WoW has. I care about what FFXIV has.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#89 Jan 13 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever
It is abrasive, I meant it that way. I'm in a ****** mood today, if I haven't made that abundantly clear. lol


Nothing wrong with being in a ***** mood every now and again, but you aren't going to win many supporters that way. Like I said; I think you have a valid point in the point that you claim you were trying to make, but it's pretty obvious by the replies that not everyone understood what you said to mean what you say you meant. And unlike sandpaper, abrasiveness doesn't do anything to smooth the situation over.

Just a suggestion.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#90Ostia, Posted: Jan 13 2011 at 4:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) OMFG Why does every single MMO has a grind in it :O OMG! Every single MMO i have played EVAH does the same thing, how dare they :(
#91 Jan 13 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Jefro420 wrote:
not mad, seriously annoyed.


U annoyed?

But seriously, I've lost at least one threat to WoW derailing myself. :\
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#92 Jan 13 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm just curious, if the OP doesn't want a flame war about other games vs. FFXIV, why start a topic on it?
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#93 Jan 13 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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Ostia wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever, with "Take your WoW discussions elsewhere, nobody here cares."

I agree that you have a point if your point is against -any- derails but your OP and thread title and your sig mention WoW and only WoW and nothing else but WoW. If you claim that isn't what you meant, surely you can understand how people could see it that way?


Maybe some of us don't care about WoW and would actually be happy to never see another mention of it in these forums - derail or not. I personally am sick of it. Yes, I am sure some people think the features are great w/e - but why does every game have to do the same **** thing? I don't care what WoW has. I care about what FFXIV has.


OMFG Why does every single MMO has a grind in it :O OMG! Every single MMO i have played EVAH does the same thing, how dare they :(


Why do all cars have wheels? Don't automotive engineers have ANY creativity?
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#94 Jan 13 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever, with "Take your WoW discussions elsewhere, nobody here cares."

I agree that you have a point if your point is against -any- derails but your OP and thread title and your sig mention WoW and only WoW and nothing else but WoW. If you claim that isn't what you meant, surely you can understand how people could see it that way?


Maybe some of us don't care about WoW and would actually be happy to never see another mention of it in these forums - derail or not. I personally am sick of it. Yes, I am sure some people think the features are great w/e - but why does every game have to do the same **** thing? I don't care what WoW has. I care about what FFXIV has.


I agree that FFXIV needs to not just carbon copy everything from WoW, package it, and slap a bow on it and call it done. Many other games have tried that. I would like FFXIV to be different than WoW because if I wanted to play WoW, I would play it instead.

However, it's naive to just ignore everything about every other game on the market and do things completely differently just for the sake of being different.

Yes, I care about what FFXIV has and I want to see FFXIV improve. Part of that improvement process should involve seeing what other games (no, not JUST WoW) are doing successfully and critically asking "Is this something that FFXIV could implement and do well, and would our players be happy with it?" Sometimes the answer is yes, sometimes the answer is no.

Consider that technology as a whole... cell phones, computers, MP3 players... wouldn't be where it is today if companies didn't look at their competitor and ask two simple questions:

1) What are they doing that makes them so successful?
2) How can I do it better?

You need to be able to objectively compare yourself to your competition and ask what you can learn from them. If you're good enough at it, eventually YOU'LL be the competitor. In an ideal world for some, this could lead to other games saying "What is it about FFXIV that makes it so successful? What features does FFXIV have that we can implement into our game to make it as successful as FFXIV?"

A successful model is frequently a model to be critiqued. Don't just copy it outright, but take account of the concepts it uses and ask yourself how you can implement them EVEN BETTER.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#95 Jan 13 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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TLDR: (for those who want to skim through this thread and don't feel like reading the rest)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNTxr2NJHa0

Edited, Jan 13th 2011 5:25pm by ThePacster
#96 Jan 13 2011 at 4:21 PM Rating: Default
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2,202 posts
Quanta wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever, with "Take your WoW discussions elsewhere, nobody here cares."

I agree that you have a point if your point is against -any- derails but your OP and thread title and your sig mention WoW and only WoW and nothing else but WoW. If you claim that isn't what you meant, surely you can understand how people could see it that way?


Maybe some of us don't care about WoW and would actually be happy to never see another mention of it in these forums - derail or not. I personally am sick of it. Yes, I am sure some people think the features are great w/e - but why does every game have to do the same **** thing? I don't care what WoW has. I care about what FFXIV has.


OMFG Why does every single MMO has a grind in it :O OMG! Every single MMO i have played EVAH does the same thing, how dare they :(


Why do all cars have wheels? Don't automotive engineers have ANY creativity?


Quick! Grab the horse's and lets tell people how good the old time's where, and how driving car's is ezmode XD!
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#97 Jan 13 2011 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Spyrit178 wrote:
Rift will turn out to hold the attention of bored WoW kiddies, until Blizzard makes it's next MMO. But as someone who is fed up with WoW, I will not give them my money on something extremely simular to something I am already sick of playing. If I want to play WoW I will play WoW, not a carbon copy.


Who you talking to?...there's like 2 or 3 of us who have mentioned playing the beta. No one cares if you like it or not. I'm not even sure why you keep bringing it up since no one is trying to convince anyone to play it. I've already stated before that most FF players would not like it.

So...please drop your mini anti Rift crusade since its pointless.
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#98 Jan 13 2011 at 4:30 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever, with "Take your WoW discussions elsewhere, nobody here cares."

I agree that you have a point if your point is against -any- derails but your OP and thread title and your sig mention WoW and only WoW and nothing else but WoW. If you claim that isn't what you meant, surely you can understand how people could see it that way?


Maybe some of us don't care about WoW and would actually be happy to never see another mention of it in these forums - derail or not. I personally am sick of it. Yes, I am sure some people think the features are great w/e - but why does every game have to do the same **** thing? I don't care what WoW has. I care about what FFXIV has.


And when FFXIV is falling short? Like it or not, no matter what SE does with FFXIV, I guarantee you I would be able to go through a list of patch notes for any of the major updates and say, "Blizzard did something very similar to that in WoW" more than once. And when we're three or so months without any new announcements for planned changes, people are going to run out of FFXIV related things to talk about.

If all anyone talked about here was related to XIV and only XIV with no duplicate threads, there would be maybe a dozen threads on the front page and everything after them would be months old. There may be a handful of threads moved to their respective subforums here, and that would be that. What are people going to do to keep the forums lively? Start a new thread for every levequest?
#99TheonVenethiel, Posted: Jan 13 2011 at 4:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Of course,wow is EZ mode made for wow kiddies and 5 year olds,just like Rift.
#100 Jan 13 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Default
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TheonVenethiel wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Ostia wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


Your sig is extremely abrasive and is not directed at WoW derails, but any discussion of WoW whatsoever, with "Take your WoW discussions elsewhere, nobody here cares."

I agree that you have a point if your point is against -any- derails but your OP and thread title and your sig mention WoW and only WoW and nothing else but WoW. If you claim that isn't what you meant, surely you can understand how people could see it that way?


Maybe some of us don't care about WoW and would actually be happy to never see another mention of it in these forums - derail or not. I personally am sick of it. Yes, I am sure some people think the features are great w/e - but why does every game have to do the same **** thing? I don't care what WoW has. I care about what FFXIV has.


OMFG Why does every single MMO has a grind in it :O OMG! Every single MMO i have played EVAH does the same thing, how dare they :(


Why do all cars have wheels? Don't automotive engineers have ANY creativity?


Quick! Grab the horse's and lets tell people how good the old time's where, and how driving car's is ezmode XD!

Of course,wow is EZ mode made for wow kiddies and 5 year olds,just like Rift.

Yeah,go quest grind,we,the real mmo players,will never player that crap.


Indeed no MMO has quests or Grinds! You go tell them :@

Oh wait, FFIXV has quest & Grind......

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#101 Jan 13 2011 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know I just don't buy that you can't talk about features without specifically mentioning WoW (or any other game for that matter). It is pure mental laziness and nothing else. If a feature is outstanding - you should be able to describe it - what it does, and what makes it outstanding without referencing any game. Bonus points if you can describe how you see that feature fitting into the world of FFXIV.

In fact - when people, out of obstinacy or laziness resort to blabbering about features by blabbering about WoW/Rift/LoTRO/whatever - I actually learn less about what the person is proposing than I would if they actually described the feature in question - especially if they are referencing WoW since my eyes just glaze over the instant I see it mentioned.

If people were truly interested in making this game better they would work harder to actually communicate what it is they actually want without advocating for the wholesale cut-and-paste of another game (which I don't even like) into FFXIV (which I do like).

DESCRIBE what it is that you are suggesting would make FFXIV better by talking about FFXIV - not by talking about some other game.

Sucky Example: Rift is great cause there is dynamic content!

Good Example: FFXIV could benefit from adding some dynamic content - for instance it would be great if there were periodic raids of empire forces in different zones across Eorzea. All the Aethrytes could offer R20+ players a free teleport to the battlefield so they could join in the battle to repel empire forces. Each player could sign up with battle npcs who would then auto-party them with rank appropriate players. Targets that were in the rank range of a party would be marked for players in parties of that rank... (and so on, you get my point)


Edited, Jan 13th 2011 2:36pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


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