Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Yeah, and so long as you still have to waste time doing that, the system is unnecessarily cumbersome. That's my whole point; they're making the market wards more and more like an AH, the only difference is that until they finally add an AH, the Market Wards will always be more cumbersome and time consuming than they need to be.
Just because some systems use some of the same features. Doesn't mean that the systems are trying to or should be be the same. I liked Auto Attack in XI. Does that mean it should be used in every rpg from now until the end of time? No. I never said I was against some form of an AH either. I just think for both to co-exist, the AH shouldn't list prices either. With a shared purchase history. The choice would be in the players hands. The people who ignore the Markets Wards pay an blind median price. But for the players who really want to dive into the depth of the markets. They can seek out the best deals.
I still don't get why you're adamantly in favor of making things more difficult and convoluted than they need to be (not showing prices and saying that people who don't want to spend time trying to find an item should blindly pay a price without knowing what it is), for no good reason.
People play most MMORPGs because they want to fight, because they want to craft, because they want to explore. The thing is, in FFXIV, you shouldn't have to craft if you don't want to. You shouldn't have to fight if you don't want to. With teleporting, you don't even have to explore if you don't want to.
The basic concept of buying and selling goods is something that, in any MMORPG, most players do on a daily basis. I'm having an extremely difficult time understanding exactly what you believe are positive aspects of making what should be a simple transaction, a tedious, time consuming, arduous process when it could be far more simpler.
Selling should be as simple as open the transaction window, search to see what is in stock and how much it is selling for, pick the item I want to sell, decide how much I want to sell it for. Done.
Buying should be as simple as open the transaction window, search for what I want to buy, figure out how many are in stock and what it's worth, buy it, have it. Done.
There is no benefit to complicating either of these beyond this.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
No, but no one is suggesting that hot air balloons, hang gliders, hovercrafts, etc become the ONLY means of travel for EVERYONE.
I'm fine if they want to have an AH -and- Market Wards, but it's not right to make EVERYONE use hot air ballons because "I don't like cars; criminals use cars to commit crimes and cars go too fast!"
Im fine with both systems too but only if one doesn't overshadow the other. However you are still assuming that the current system can absolutely never approach the time consumption process efficiency. Which you can't say for sure, things evolve and streamline over time.
Okay, humor me then. I made the point that the current system can end in one of three ways: Either it's not as efficient as an AH (in which case an AH is better), it's equally efficient as an AH (in which case they're wasting resources reinventing the wheel) or it's more efficient than an AH (in which case, yes, it's better).
You counter by saying that you believe I am assuming the current system can never approach the time efficiency of an AH. Firstly, I'll say that yes, I am assuming that, but let's set that aside and give you the benefit of the doubt:
If it were totally up to you, how would you change the system in such a way that it was MORE EFFICIENT and overall better in every way shape or form than an AH? If you, personally, could modify it in any way you wished, what could be done to the current system to make it so much better than an AH that no one could possibly want to use an AH instead?
If your argument is that the current system theoretically could be more efficient and less time consuming than an AH, without actually turning the system into an AH, then tell me what would need to happen for that to take place.
Your goal is to design a system where:
1) A person can locate an item, determine how many are for sale and the price of the item, purchase the item, and possess the item.
2) A person can determine the value of the item they possess and how many are currently available, then list the item at a price comparable to the market value.
And both of these actions can be performed in under 60 seconds from beginning to end.
If you can do all of that in a system that is not an AH, then your system is comparable. If you have additional benefits on top of thes, then your system is better.
If you cannot do either or both of these functions in the alloted time frame, then your proposed system is worse than an AH.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The story should be immersive. The world should be immersive. The characters and monsters should be immersive. The system of buying and selling goods need not be immersive unless this is explicitly being packaged as an economy sim. Even Recettear (great game, by the way), a game that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to be a game where literally half of the game is buying and selling goods, where finding low prices and selling items for a profit is the SOLE PURPOSE of the game, is less cumbersome and time consuming than the Market Wards.
I am not trying to imply the game should be an economy sim. The game list the Disciples of Hand and Land as ACTUAL CLASSES. Not hobbies, not filler to the battle classes, not a side thing that you have to do. So let me ask you. If SE told you that you would no longer actually fight battles on your Disciple of War. That you would simulate the process thru a menu because it wasn't time efficient. What would your answer be? Should the economy be immersive in every rpg? No, but most games don't advertise their crafting or gathering as CLASSES. Should the economy be streamlined to cut time sink down? **** yes. But the only solution isn't ditch the current system for an AH.
Your argument would be a good one, if and only if the DoH and DoL classes were the only ones who had to deal with the market wards and the DoW/DoM players got an AH.
You're arguing that it's okay if the system is intentionally obtuse for the purposes of DoL and DoH playing an economy sim, not realizing that no part of the description of Gladiator, Marauder, Pugilist, etc is "Kill baddies and level up, and also explore the market wards whenever you want new gear".
Side note, you made the following argument: "If SE told you that you would no longer actually fight battles on your Disciple of War. That you would simulate the process thru a menu because it wasn't time efficient. [...] most games don't advertise their crafting or gathering as CLASSES" implying that because DoH and DoL are classes, -EVERYONE- should have to suffer through an obtuse buying and selling scheme.
I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that I'd have no problem with the market wards if buying gear was as simple as mashing 1111111.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
"Some people can power level crafts" is just a strawman. You're arguing to inconvenience EVERYONE with the system because SOME PEOPLE might use the system in a way that you don't like. Even with an AH, players won't be totally self sufficient. They still have to make the goods, they still have to buy from other people. Many players don't even want to craft, so the ability to powerlevel something they don't want to do is not going to result in them leveling all their crafts to 50 in a week.
So some crafters will level a little faster, and perhaps some people who don't want to take up crafting due to the difficulty of finding mats might actually give crafting a try now. I don't see the problem here.
I saw a guy get 100 Goldsmithing in XI in mere days days with gil. Not just a little faster, I mean he bypassed the whole process. If you don't enjoy crafting, why do it? There is alternative means to making gil such as guildleves, NM, farming.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. People can powerlevel crafts. Okay, fine. Never said they couldn't. They can also powerlevel combat classes too. What's the point you're trying to make here? That you want the system to be as convoluted as possible so as to waste everyone's time all because you don't like the idea that some people might level a little faster than you? Why does it matter to you how fast other people level? I don't get what the big deal is about someone who might level his crafts faster if he could actually find the stuff he needed in a reasonable timeframe.
Why not argue that Home Depot should be shut down because by having a wide selection of goods and organizing and clearly pricing them, they make it too easy for people to build things compared to chopping down trees the way you're -supposed- to do it... or something.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I've done several polls on the matter; tolerable is the majority opinion. Most players are pretty much in agreement that they would rather SE focus on content for the time being, but that they would eventually like an AH. The "We don't want an AH ever" opinion is held by a minority. A very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless.
Well it don't matter if we ran 1000 polls on this subject on these forums. These forums or any games unofficial forums are a small group.
I guess when SE publishes the results of their player's poll, we might see how many people wanted an AH, but again... most of the people in the AH camp are of the "Focus on content, but we still want an AH later" persuasion. And aforementioned polls had a couple hundred replies, which is a pretty decent size for a fan site.
You can question the polling methods or the sample size all you like, but the fact is, you still haven't provided any tangible benefit that makes the market wards better than an AH in such a significant way to outweigh all of the benefits that an AH would provide. Yes, the market wards do have SOME benefits an AH doesn't, like the ability to browse one vendor's goods for example. But that doesn't outweigh everything the system lacks.
Look at ebay, for example. For any given item, you can browse the seller's store and look at what other deals they are offering. But if I want to buy any given item, from a television to a video game to a coat, all I have to do is type in what I want, search, browse what's for sale and the price, pick the item I want, and buy. This is an efficient process. eBay does not say "Well, we have that item in stock. Now you have to navigate a virtual mall to find the store that it would be in, and then locate an NPC sales associate with a star over their head, and they will tell you how much THEY are selling it for".
Again, as mentioned, if you have any suggestions for how the system could be more efficient than an AH then I'm all ears. For the time being, all you're doing is trying to defend a bad system, and you're grasping at reasons.