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#52 Jan 14 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
Sage
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534 posts
RMT is a non-subject as it relates to the real issues of FFXIV. Maybe someday...but not for a long time.
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#53 Jan 14 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
sandpark wrote:
Yes, SE put in an AH so crafters can start buying all their mats to powerlevel their crafts in one convienient menu.
And players and rmt alike can start monopolizing the system with one click.
Forget about the players who like roleplaying or immersion or see an economy as more a distraction.
We don't care if you envisioned DoL or DoH as more than a distraction from killing monsters with the other classes.
While your at it, just remove all your travel restrictions from the game too. Who cares if it makes your game world one big instance.
/sarcasm off

Most who support other options besides an AH are not saying the systems are more time efficient than an AH. They just enjoy what is given, but would still like to see even more streamlining. I wish to see original content as opposed to mainstream copycat. An economy is content to me, but the AH is not the only solution.


The problem with this theory is that everything you do to the current system to make it easier to use and faster to use is just adding features to it that an AH has.

In the end, you're saying that you're driving a car on wooden blocks. You have since made the wooden blocks round, replaced the wood in the wooden blocks with metal, and covered this metal with rubber, but it's still a wooden block because you don't want to use a wheel since everyone uses wheels.

I have a hard time envisioning what can be done to make the market wards -better- than an AH, hands down, that doesn't make it pretty much an AH. As it is now, only a certain group of people (people who have a lot of time to spend in the wards and people who enjoy spending time playing a shopping sim and who want to try to take advantage of sellers who don't know what their items are worth by buying mats as cheaply as possible and reselling them for as much as possible) actually benefit from the current system. Your average player who just wants to get in, list everything they have at the going rate, buy whatever they need, and get out in under 5 minutes would benefit far more from a traditional AH.

And right now, the market wards is drawing close to an AH system anyway; the current system is just an AH that makes you look around for the buyer rather than just giving you the item. It's basically one of those "Take this item to that NPC" fedex quests, but in reverse, every time you want to buy one item.

And if you just got a drop you've never seen before, how do you know what it's worth? I don't want to hear "Go look it up online" and I don't want to hear "Well just guess and hope that you aren't either selling too low and ******** yourself or selling too high and no one will buy it". If some mob drops some material or ore or something that I've never seen before, I should not have to manually walk around to multiple retainers and figure out what they're selling it for to figure out what it's worth. There should be an easier way.

Sites like YG have the right idea, but the question is: If the current system is so great, why do we need to leave the game and go to a website to tell us what an item is worth? It's one thing to say you should go online to research a fight strategy or a mission or a quest, but it's insane to suggest that every player should have to go online to research every purchase they make, and that the alternative is "just guess".

I mean, you really don't see any flaws with that at all? You claim that an AH hurts "roleplayers" but I'm confused as to how alt-tab and going online is "roleplaying". All of this "RMT" and "undercutters" stuff are just scapegoats.

You say something like "Yes, SE put in an AH so crafters can start buying all their mats to powerlevel their crafts in one convienient menu." not realizing the irony in your sarcasm, that you're stating that:

1) Being convenient is a bad thing
2) Actually being able to buy things within a reasonable timeframe is also a bad thing.

I mean, why not extend the argument to the battle system and say that players should have to have a dialogue with every monster they ever encounter before fighting them. After all, that's the point, right? To add an unnecessary task to make what should be a trivial action suddenly become a chore every time you have to do it?

As I've said before... FOR NOW, the market wards are TOLERABLE until more content is added, but at some point in this game's life it's going to hit a point where they either need to make the ability to buy and sell more accessible and more convenient or they're going to have to immediately write off a ton of people who will be unwilling to ever give the try, and a bunch more who will quit because they want to play Final Fantasy XIV, not an MMORPG version of Wall Street Kid.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#54 Jan 14 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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793 posts
Quote:
ElDoyen wrote:
I can almost smell the cho'bo dung..



I so did not need that visual...


I'm so desperate for our horse-bird hybrid friends, that I'd be willing to roll in their dung then proceed to rub it in every ******* I could reach if it meant we could straddle them once more.
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I might be an onion thief, but I'm still a thief.™





#55 Jan 14 2011 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
597 posts
Onionthiefx wrote:
Quote:
ElDoyen wrote:
I can almost smell the cho'bo dung..



I so did not need that visual...


I'm so desperate for our horse-bird hybrid friends, that I'd be willing to roll in their dung then proceed to rub it in every ******* I could reach if it meant we could straddle them once more.


Hey, hey! Keep your fetishes to yourself!
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#56 Jan 15 2011 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
5 posts
Content is definitely priority on my list. I think the new retainer system is "passable" for now. If there were more people on my server I could probably get a better idea of how it would work. Honestly though, at this point I'd like to just hear something definitive from the dev team. I'm trying to be patient as most of you are because I want the game to succeed, but I don't know how much longer I can play this game in the state it's in.
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#57 Jan 16 2011 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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970 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

The problem with this theory is that everything you do to the current system to make it easier to use and faster to use is just adding features to it that an AH has.


No matter how streamlined the Markets become. There is still a fundamental difference. In a traditional AH, you do not need to shop around or travel to compare prices.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
In the end, you're saying that you're driving a car on wooden blocks. You have since made the wooden blocks round, replaced the wood in the wooden blocks with metal, and covered this metal with rubber, but it's still a wooden block because you don't want to use a wheel since everyone uses wheels.

Eh, I don't like metaphors because they never correlate correctly. So because wheels are better, they should stop making hot air balloons, hangliders, hovercrafts, etc?
.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I have a hard time envisioning what can be done to make the market wards -better- than an AH, hands down, that doesn't make it pretty much an AH. As it is now, only a certain group of people (people who have a lot of time to spend in the wards and people who enjoy spending time playing a shopping sim and who want to try to take advantage of sellers who don't know what their items are worth by buying mats as cheaply as possible and reselling them for as much as possible) actually benefit from the current system. Your average player who just wants to get in, list everything they have at the going rate, buy whatever they need, and get out in under 5 minutes would benefit far more from a traditional AH.

I have a hard time envisioning things too, just like people couldn't envision some inventions years before their design. That's why I am not an artist or inventor.
The system doesn't have to be better than an AH. It can still be more immersive. A purchase history would alleviate the manipulation. I suppose if(benefit in a game) is more important than (immersion) an AH wins the Market hands down. But I think the Market could be streamlined enough to approach 5-6 minute time duration.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
And right now, the market wards is drawing close to an AH system anyway; the current system is just an AH that makes you look around for the buyer rather than just giving you the item. It's basically one of those "Take this item to that NPC" fedex quests, but in reverse, every time you want to buy one item.
It is rather similar in some way. But it still isn't an AH. You have to spend time to find deals from stores. Something that lazy players will not take the time to do. Would the real world be more beneficial, if you could buy and receive all goods without leaving your home? More accessible absolutely. But that would remove the adventure of taking in the sights, sounds, and smells and meeting new people.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Sites like YG have the right idea, but the question is: If the current system is so great, why do we need to leave the game and go to a website to tell us what an item is worth? It's one thing to say you should go online to research a fight strategy or a mission or a quest, but it's insane to suggest that every player should have to go online to research every purchase they make, and that the alternative is "just guess".

I mean, you really don't see any flaws with that at all? You claim that an AH hurts "roleplayers" but I'm confused as to how alt-tab and going online is "roleplaying". All of this "RMT" and "undercutters" stuff are just scapegoats.

You say something like "Yes, SE put in an AH so crafters can start buying all their mats to powerlevel their crafts in one convienient menu." not realizing the irony in your sarcasm, that you're stating that:

1) Being convenient is a bad thing
2) Actually being able to buy things within a reasonable timeframe is also a bad thing.
Again a purchase history would lessen the guesswork. Exiting the game to research anything be it fights or items hurts roleplaying and immersion. This reason is why I always try and win a mission my own way whenever possible. I see no irony in my statement. Convienience and buying a thing within a reasonable time frame is not a bad thing. The Markets can be streamlined to be within a reasonable time frame.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I mean, why not extend the argument to the battle system and say that players should have to have a dialogue with every monster they ever encounter before fighting them. After all, that's the point, right? To add an unnecessary task to make what should be a trivial action suddenly become a chore every time you have to do it?
Dialogue? No, and you can't compare the Markets to battle. PLayers are already complaining that the battle system is to simple, and doesn't require communication or teamwork. If the economy gets an AH and all players have the option to be self sufficient or power levels crafts. Guess what some players start saying?

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
As I've said before... FOR NOW, the market wards are TOLERABLE until more content is added, but at some point in this game's life it's going to hit a point where they either need to make the ability to buy and sell more accessible and more convenient or they're going to have to immediately write off a ton of people who will be unwilling to ever give the try, and a bunch more who will quit because they want to play Final Fantasy XIV, not an MMORPG version of Wall Street Kid.


Tolerable is your opinion.. But I do agree it should become more easier to buy and sell. Right they want to play XIV, not XI or some other mmo. And your analogy on Wall Street is off. Wall street would be closer to an AH where you watch a menu screen and make adjustments without traveling places. Wall Street is boring....
#58 Jan 16 2011 at 11:19 AM Rating: Excellent
41 posts
Personally I have not crafted much of anything in quite awhile because with the Market Ward system its hard to know what items are in demand. And call me lazy if you want but I find it to be incredibly tedious to have to check several other retainers and/or go to websites to find out what is a reasonable price to buy or sell ANYTHING in the game. I find buying or selling anything to be a pain. Yes the system has improved but not enough. For me having more of a "one stop shop" with sales history and not going to 10 different ward levels to have to find the stuff I am interested in would vastly improve my playing experience. I hate the fact that I can sink HOURS into the Market Wards and feel like I got absolutely nothing done.

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#59 Jan 16 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

The problem with this theory is that everything you do to the current system to make it easier to use and faster to use is just adding features to it that an AH has.


No matter how streamlined the Markets become. There is still a fundamental difference. In a traditional AH, you do not need to shop around or travel to compare prices.


Yeah, and so long as you still have to waste time doing that, the system is unnecessarily cumbersome. That's my whole point; they're making the market wards more and more like an AH, the only difference is that until they finally add an AH, the Market Wards will always be more cumbersome and time consuming than they need to be.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
In the end, you're saying that you're driving a car on wooden blocks. You have since made the wooden blocks round, replaced the wood in the wooden blocks with metal, and covered this metal with rubber, but it's still a wooden block because you don't want to use a wheel since everyone uses wheels.

Eh, I don't like metaphors because they never correlate correctly. So because wheels are better, they should stop making hot air balloons, hangliders, hovercrafts, etc?


No, but no one is suggesting that hot air balloons, hang gliders, hovercrafts, etc become the ONLY means of travel for EVERYONE.

I'm fine if they want to have an AH -and- Market Wards, but it's not right to make EVERYONE use hot air ballons because "I don't like cars; criminals use cars to commit crimes and cars go too fast!"

Expanding my analogy helps my point in this situation.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I have a hard time envisioning what can be done to make the market wards -better- than an AH, hands down, that doesn't make it pretty much an AH. As it is now, only a certain group of people (people who have a lot of time to spend in the wards and people who enjoy spending time playing a shopping sim and who want to try to take advantage of sellers who don't know what their items are worth by buying mats as cheaply as possible and reselling them for as much as possible) actually benefit from the current system. Your average player who just wants to get in, list everything they have at the going rate, buy whatever they need, and get out in under 5 minutes would benefit far more from a traditional AH.

I have a hard time envisioning things too, just like people couldn't envision some inventions years before their design. That's why I am not an artist or inventor.
The system doesn't have to be better than an AH. It can still be more immersive. A purchase history would alleviate the manipulation. I suppose if(benefit in a game) is more important than (immersion) an AH wins the Market hands down. But I think the Market could be streamlined enough to approach 5-6 minute time duration.


The story should be immersive. The world should be immersive. The characters and monsters should be immersive. The system of buying and selling goods need not be immersive unless this is explicitly being packaged as an economy sim. Even Recettear (great game, by the way), a game that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to be a game where literally half of the game is buying and selling goods, where finding low prices and selling items for a profit is the SOLE PURPOSE of the game, is less cumbersome and time consuming than the Market Wards.

Sidenote: There's a free Recettear demo that goes up to day 7; if you like buying and selling sims, give it a try.

At any rate, if they're not going to use an AH, then they should be designing a system that is better than an AH. Because this can turn out three ways:

1) The system is worse than an AH: Solution - Why didn't they just use an AH? It's better.
2) The system is neither better nor worse than an AH: Acceptable, but they could have saved time and resources by using a model that already works.
3) The System is better than an AH: Good. @#%^ the AH then.

There's no reason to reinvent the wheel if the end result is going to be worse than, or at best comparable to a wheel. The only reason you reinvent the wheel is if you think you can do better than a wheel. If they can design a system that is not an AH, and is hands down better, faster, easier to use, more convenient, then I say go for it. I'd love to see them come up with a system that is better than an AH hands down, to the point where other games want to start using the FFXIV system instead of an AH. That'd be pretty cool.

The thing is, if the best they can do with the current system is still not as good as an AH, then they either need to implement an AH or they need to start over from scratch and figure out how to make a better system.

Some companies try to emulate their competitors (fast food chains copying each others' sandwich ideas is a good example, as are store brand groceries) and some companies try to make products that are even better (The Kinect or PS Move have been considered by some to be better than Wii Motion plus; they took a working idea and made it better), but no company with any good business sense is going to look at a working product and say "How can we make a product like that, except that it takes longer and requires more effort to use"? Car manufacturers don't intentionally design cars that take 3-5 minutes to start up. Cell phone manufacturers don't intentionally design their phone's OS and UI in such a way that it takes 3-5 minutes just to make a call or send a text message. Hand crank cars and rotary cell phones might appeal to a niche market, but they will not be nearly as successful as their standard counterparts. Why is it a good idea, business-wise, to design a system that does this?

On the other hand, you have cars that are voice activated and things like the iPhone that have a full touch screen and no buttons. If you design a better product than the standard, people WILL use it. But it's just silly to spend time developing a product whose full potential is still less than what the current market standard can provide.

Again, it's one thing if they want to leave in the wards and also add an AH. Or ****, leave the existing system as is and just give players the option from buying from the search window instead of going into the wards. That way people who want to go into the wards and spend time looking for gear can do so and people who just want to see what is for sale can buy it and get on with their life.

That seems like a fair compromise to me.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
And right now, the market wards is drawing close to an AH system anyway; the current system is just an AH that makes you look around for the buyer rather than just giving you the item. It's basically one of those "Take this item to that NPC" fedex quests, but in reverse, every time you want to buy one item.
It is rather similar in some way. But it still isn't an AH. You have to spend time to find deals from stores. Something that lazy players will not take the time to do. Would the real world be more beneficial, if you could buy and receive all goods without leaving your home? More accessible absolutely. But that would remove the adventure of taking in the sights, sounds, and smells and meeting new people.


I dunno about you, but if you've been to your local flea market or Walmart lately, the sights, sounds, and smells of other people leave a lot to be desired.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Sites like YG have the right idea, but the question is: If the current system is so great, why do we need to leave the game and go to a website to tell us what an item is worth? It's one thing to say you should go online to research a fight strategy or a mission or a quest, but it's insane to suggest that every player should have to go online to research every purchase they make, and that the alternative is "just guess".

I mean, you really don't see any flaws with that at all? You claim that an AH hurts "roleplayers" but I'm confused as to how alt-tab and going online is "roleplaying". All of this "RMT" and "undercutters" stuff are just scapegoats.

You say something like "Yes, SE put in an AH so crafters can start buying all their mats to powerlevel their crafts in one convienient menu." not realizing the irony in your sarcasm, that you're stating that:

1) Being convenient is a bad thing
2) Actually being able to buy things within a reasonable timeframe is also a bad thing.
Again a purchase history would lessen the guesswork. Exiting the game to research anything be it fights or items hurts roleplaying and immersion. This reason is why I always try and win a mission my own way whenever possible. I see no irony in my statement. Convienience and buying a thing within a reasonable time frame is not a bad thing. The Markets can be streamlined to be within a reasonable time frame.


And again, a purchase history is just one more step towards being an AH, while still being "not quite an AH". That was what I meant when I said that nearly everything they could add to the current system to make it better is just to add a feature than an AH already has. In this case, price history.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I mean, why not extend the argument to the battle system and say that players should have to have a dialogue with every monster they ever encounter before fighting them. After all, that's the point, right? To add an unnecessary task to make what should be a trivial action suddenly become a chore every time you have to do it?
Dialogue? No, and you can't compare the Markets to battle. PLayers are already complaining that the battle system is to simple, and doesn't require communication or teamwork. If the economy gets an AH and all players have the option to be self sufficient or power levels crafts. Guess what some players start saying?


"Some people can power level crafts" is just a strawman. You're arguing to inconvenience EVERYONE with the system because SOME PEOPLE might use the system in a way that you don't like. Even with an AH, players won't be totally self sufficient. They still have to make the goods, they still have to buy from other people. Many players don't even want to craft, so the ability to powerlevel something they don't want to do is not going to result in them leveling all their crafts to 50 in a week.

So some crafters will level a little faster, and perhaps some people who don't want to take up crafting due to the difficulty of finding mats might actually give crafting a try now. I don't see the problem here.

sandpark wrote:
[quote=Mikhalia the Picky]As I've said before... FOR NOW, the market wards are TOLERABLE until more content is added, but at some point in this game's life it's going to hit a point where they either need to make the ability to buy and sell more accessible and more convenient or they're going to have to immediately write off a ton of people who will be unwilling to ever give the try, and a bunch more who will quit because they want to play Final Fantasy XIV, not an MMORPG version of Wall Street Kid.


Tolerable is your opinion.. But I do agree it should become more easier to buy and sell. Right they want to play XIV, not XI or some other mmo. And your analogy on Wall Street is off. Wall street would be closer to an AH where you watch a menu screen and make adjustments without traveling places. Wall Street is boring....[/quote]

I've done several polls on the matter; tolerable is the majority opinion. Most players are pretty much in agreement that they would rather SE focus on content for the time being, but that they would eventually like an AH. The "We don't want an AH ever" opinion is held by a minority. A very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless.

And my analogy was not about Wall Street. It was about "Wall Street Kid", which wan an NES game that was focused on buying and selling stocks while your ****** girlfriend keeps asking you for cars and dogs and houses and gets an 8-bit frowny face with a ***** attitude if you don't buy her the most expensive one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Kid

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 1:19pm by Mikhalia
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#60 Jan 16 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Decent
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3,416 posts
Quote:
they're making the market wards more and more like an AH, the only difference is that until they finally add an AH, the Market Wards will always be more cumbersome and time consuming than they need to be.


Well that's not entirely true, they can make the market wards function like an AH does, making AH irrelevant.
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#61 Jan 16 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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970 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Yeah, and so long as you still have to waste time doing that, the system is unnecessarily cumbersome. That's my whole point; they're making the market wards more and more like an AH, the only difference is that until they finally add an AH, the Market Wards will always be more cumbersome and time consuming than they need to be.

Just because some systems use some of the same features. Doesn't mean that the systems are trying to or should be be the same. I liked Auto Attack in XI. Does that mean it should be used in every rpg from now until the end of time? No. I never said I was against some form of an AH either. I just think for both to co-exist, the AH shouldn't list prices either. With a shared purchase history. The choice would be in the players hands. The people who ignore the Markets Wards pay an blind median price. But for the players who really want to dive into the depth of the markets. They can seek out the best deals.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

No, but no one is suggesting that hot air balloons, hang gliders, hovercrafts, etc become the ONLY means of travel for EVERYONE.

I'm fine if they want to have an AH -and- Market Wards, but it's not right to make EVERYONE use hot air ballons because "I don't like cars; criminals use cars to commit crimes and cars go too fast!"

Im fine with both systems too but only if one doesn't overshadow the other. However you are still assuming that the current system can absolutely never approach the time consumption process efficiency. Which you can't say for sure, things evolve and streamline over time.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The story should be immersive. The world should be immersive. The characters and monsters should be immersive. The system of buying and selling goods need not be immersive unless this is explicitly being packaged as an economy sim. Even Recettear (great game, by the way), a game that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to be a game where literally half of the game is buying and selling goods, where finding low prices and selling items for a profit is the SOLE PURPOSE of the game, is less cumbersome and time consuming than the Market Wards.

I am not trying to imply the game should be an economy sim. The game list the Disciples of Hand and Land as ACTUAL CLASSES. Not hobbies, not filler to the battle classes, not a side thing that you have to do. So let me ask you. If SE told you that you would no longer actually fight battles on your Disciple of War. That you would simulate the process thru a menu because it wasn't time efficient. What would your answer be? Should the economy be immersive in every rpg? No, but most games don't advertise their crafting or gathering as CLASSES. Should the economy be streamlined to cut time sink down? **** yes. But the only solution isn't ditch the current system for an AH.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

There's no reason to reinvent the wheel if the end result is going to be worse than, or at best comparable to a wheel. The only reason you reinvent the wheel is if you think you can do better than a wheel. If they can design a system that is not an AH, and is hands down better, faster, easier to use, more convenient, then I say go for it. I'd love to see them come up with a system that is better than an AH hands down, to the point where other games want to start using the FFXIV system instead of an AH. That'd be pretty cool.

Again, it's one thing if they want to leave in the wards and also add an AH. Or ****, leave the existing system as is and just give players the option from buying from the search window instead of going into the wards. That way people who want to go into the wards and spend time looking for gear can do so and people who just want to see what is for sale can buy it and get on with their life.
That seems like a fair compromise to me.

True no need to reinvent the wheel. So even if they take many features from an AH, I guess that's not reinventing the wheel.
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

"Some people can power level crafts" is just a strawman. You're arguing to inconvenience EVERYONE with the system because SOME PEOPLE might use the system in a way that you don't like. Even with an AH, players won't be totally self sufficient. They still have to make the goods, they still have to buy from other people. Many players don't even want to craft, so the ability to powerlevel something they don't want to do is not going to result in them leveling all their crafts to 50 in a week.

So some crafters will level a little faster, and perhaps some people who don't want to take up crafting due to the difficulty of finding mats might actually give crafting a try now. I don't see the problem here.

I saw a guy get 100 Goldsmithing in XI in mere days days with gil. Not just a little faster, I mean he bypassed the whole process. If you don't enjoy crafting, why do it? There is alternative means to making gil such as guildleves, NM, farming.

Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I've done several polls on the matter; tolerable is the majority opinion. Most players are pretty much in agreement that they would rather SE focus on content for the time being, but that they would eventually like an AH. The "We don't want an AH ever" opinion is held by a minority. A very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless.
Well it don't matter if we ran 1000 polls on this subject on these forums. These forums or any games unofficial forums are a small group.
#62 Jan 16 2011 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,539 posts
sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

Yeah, and so long as you still have to waste time doing that, the system is unnecessarily cumbersome. That's my whole point; they're making the market wards more and more like an AH, the only difference is that until they finally add an AH, the Market Wards will always be more cumbersome and time consuming than they need to be.

Just because some systems use some of the same features. Doesn't mean that the systems are trying to or should be be the same. I liked Auto Attack in XI. Does that mean it should be used in every rpg from now until the end of time? No. I never said I was against some form of an AH either. I just think for both to co-exist, the AH shouldn't list prices either. With a shared purchase history. The choice would be in the players hands. The people who ignore the Markets Wards pay an blind median price. But for the players who really want to dive into the depth of the markets. They can seek out the best deals.


I still don't get why you're adamantly in favor of making things more difficult and convoluted than they need to be (not showing prices and saying that people who don't want to spend time trying to find an item should blindly pay a price without knowing what it is), for no good reason.

People play most MMORPGs because they want to fight, because they want to craft, because they want to explore. The thing is, in FFXIV, you shouldn't have to craft if you don't want to. You shouldn't have to fight if you don't want to. With teleporting, you don't even have to explore if you don't want to.

The basic concept of buying and selling goods is something that, in any MMORPG, most players do on a daily basis. I'm having an extremely difficult time understanding exactly what you believe are positive aspects of making what should be a simple transaction, a tedious, time consuming, arduous process when it could be far more simpler.

Selling should be as simple as open the transaction window, search to see what is in stock and how much it is selling for, pick the item I want to sell, decide how much I want to sell it for. Done.

Buying should be as simple as open the transaction window, search for what I want to buy, figure out how many are in stock and what it's worth, buy it, have it. Done.

There is no benefit to complicating either of these beyond this.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

No, but no one is suggesting that hot air balloons, hang gliders, hovercrafts, etc become the ONLY means of travel for EVERYONE.

I'm fine if they want to have an AH -and- Market Wards, but it's not right to make EVERYONE use hot air ballons because "I don't like cars; criminals use cars to commit crimes and cars go too fast!"

Im fine with both systems too but only if one doesn't overshadow the other. However you are still assuming that the current system can absolutely never approach the time consumption process efficiency. Which you can't say for sure, things evolve and streamline over time.


Okay, humor me then. I made the point that the current system can end in one of three ways: Either it's not as efficient as an AH (in which case an AH is better), it's equally efficient as an AH (in which case they're wasting resources reinventing the wheel) or it's more efficient than an AH (in which case, yes, it's better).

You counter by saying that you believe I am assuming the current system can never approach the time efficiency of an AH. Firstly, I'll say that yes, I am assuming that, but let's set that aside and give you the benefit of the doubt:

If it were totally up to you, how would you change the system in such a way that it was MORE EFFICIENT and overall better in every way shape or form than an AH? If you, personally, could modify it in any way you wished, what could be done to the current system to make it so much better than an AH that no one could possibly want to use an AH instead?

If your argument is that the current system theoretically could be more efficient and less time consuming than an AH, without actually turning the system into an AH, then tell me what would need to happen for that to take place.

Your goal is to design a system where:

1) A person can locate an item, determine how many are for sale and the price of the item, purchase the item, and possess the item.
2) A person can determine the value of the item they possess and how many are currently available, then list the item at a price comparable to the market value.

And both of these actions can be performed in under 60 seconds from beginning to end.

If you can do all of that in a system that is not an AH, then your system is comparable. If you have additional benefits on top of thes, then your system is better.

If you cannot do either or both of these functions in the alloted time frame, then your proposed system is worse than an AH.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The story should be immersive. The world should be immersive. The characters and monsters should be immersive. The system of buying and selling goods need not be immersive unless this is explicitly being packaged as an economy sim. Even Recettear (great game, by the way), a game that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED to be a game where literally half of the game is buying and selling goods, where finding low prices and selling items for a profit is the SOLE PURPOSE of the game, is less cumbersome and time consuming than the Market Wards.

I am not trying to imply the game should be an economy sim. The game list the Disciples of Hand and Land as ACTUAL CLASSES. Not hobbies, not filler to the battle classes, not a side thing that you have to do. So let me ask you. If SE told you that you would no longer actually fight battles on your Disciple of War. That you would simulate the process thru a menu because it wasn't time efficient. What would your answer be? Should the economy be immersive in every rpg? No, but most games don't advertise their crafting or gathering as CLASSES. Should the economy be streamlined to cut time sink down? **** yes. But the only solution isn't ditch the current system for an AH.


Your argument would be a good one, if and only if the DoH and DoL classes were the only ones who had to deal with the market wards and the DoW/DoM players got an AH.

You're arguing that it's okay if the system is intentionally obtuse for the purposes of DoL and DoH playing an economy sim, not realizing that no part of the description of Gladiator, Marauder, Pugilist, etc is "Kill baddies and level up, and also explore the market wards whenever you want new gear".

Side note, you made the following argument: "If SE told you that you would no longer actually fight battles on your Disciple of War. That you would simulate the process thru a menu because it wasn't time efficient. [...] most games don't advertise their crafting or gathering as CLASSES" implying that because DoH and DoL are classes, -EVERYONE- should have to suffer through an obtuse buying and selling scheme.

I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that I'd have no problem with the market wards if buying gear was as simple as mashing 1111111.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

"Some people can power level crafts" is just a strawman. You're arguing to inconvenience EVERYONE with the system because SOME PEOPLE might use the system in a way that you don't like. Even with an AH, players won't be totally self sufficient. They still have to make the goods, they still have to buy from other people. Many players don't even want to craft, so the ability to powerlevel something they don't want to do is not going to result in them leveling all their crafts to 50 in a week.

So some crafters will level a little faster, and perhaps some people who don't want to take up crafting due to the difficulty of finding mats might actually give crafting a try now. I don't see the problem here.

I saw a guy get 100 Goldsmithing in XI in mere days days with gil. Not just a little faster, I mean he bypassed the whole process. If you don't enjoy crafting, why do it? There is alternative means to making gil such as guildleves, NM, farming.


I'm not sure where you're going with this. People can powerlevel crafts. Okay, fine. Never said they couldn't. They can also powerlevel combat classes too. What's the point you're trying to make here? That you want the system to be as convoluted as possible so as to waste everyone's time all because you don't like the idea that some people might level a little faster than you? Why does it matter to you how fast other people level? I don't get what the big deal is about someone who might level his crafts faster if he could actually find the stuff he needed in a reasonable timeframe.

Why not argue that Home Depot should be shut down because by having a wide selection of goods and organizing and clearly pricing them, they make it too easy for people to build things compared to chopping down trees the way you're -supposed- to do it... or something.

sandpark wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I've done several polls on the matter; tolerable is the majority opinion. Most players are pretty much in agreement that they would rather SE focus on content for the time being, but that they would eventually like an AH. The "We don't want an AH ever" opinion is held by a minority. A very vocal minority, but a minority nonetheless.
Well it don't matter if we ran 1000 polls on this subject on these forums. These forums or any games unofficial forums are a small group.


I guess when SE publishes the results of their player's poll, we might see how many people wanted an AH, but again... most of the people in the AH camp are of the "Focus on content, but we still want an AH later" persuasion. And aforementioned polls had a couple hundred replies, which is a pretty decent size for a fan site.

You can question the polling methods or the sample size all you like, but the fact is, you still haven't provided any tangible benefit that makes the market wards better than an AH in such a significant way to outweigh all of the benefits that an AH would provide. Yes, the market wards do have SOME benefits an AH doesn't, like the ability to browse one vendor's goods for example. But that doesn't outweigh everything the system lacks.

Look at ebay, for example. For any given item, you can browse the seller's store and look at what other deals they are offering. But if I want to buy any given item, from a television to a video game to a coat, all I have to do is type in what I want, search, browse what's for sale and the price, pick the item I want, and buy. This is an efficient process. eBay does not say "Well, we have that item in stock. Now you have to navigate a virtual mall to find the store that it would be in, and then locate an NPC sales associate with a star over their head, and they will tell you how much THEY are selling it for".

Again, as mentioned, if you have any suggestions for how the system could be more efficient than an AH then I'm all ears. For the time being, all you're doing is trying to defend a bad system, and you're grasping at reasons.
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#63 Jan 16 2011 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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409 posts
sandpark wrote:

If you don't enjoy crafting, why do it? There is alternative means to making gil such as guildleves, NM, farming.


If I don't enjoy spending 4 hours crafting to get my skill high enough to make my own weapon, why would I enjoy spending 4 hours running around the market wards trying to find the same weapon at a decent price?

I'll say about the market wards the same thing I said about surplus exp in beta. "Why would you put a mechanic in the game that is beneficial only to one group of people while penalizing everyone else? Why would you not just use a system that benefits everyone?"

In all the arguments about Market Wards vs. AH, I have never seen anyone come up with a good reason to not have an AH. It's always either "I like it" (which is not a reason, it's an opinion) or "It keepz da RMTz awayz" which is nothing but a way to scare people into avoiding an AH system. RMT exist in ANY GAME THAT MAKES THEM A PROFIT. Period. Doing away with an AH for a logistically inferior alternative will not change that.

Edited, Jan 16th 2011 10:05pm by SickleSageKiroh
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