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Aesthetic in MMOsFollow

#1 Jan 14 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Hiya FFXIV friends,

I came accross a discussion in another thread regarding on not wearing gears with optimal stats (for example people who kept wearing AF and AF2 in FFXI)... And I was like, "ooh I'm kinda like that.. but I didn't want to wear some ugly gears just because it has the best stats..!" (T.T;) Just to clarify the purpose of this thread is not to argue purely on "stats v.s. aesthetics", but more of opening up the discussion on, "why can't we have both?"

I also understand that this topic is probabaly irrelevant for some of you who are "less-casual", as you would have no problem whatsoever if you are wearing a light green plate armor with a navy-blue pants, as long as the gears provide the best stats which give you distinctive competitive edge (and/or recognition from other players).. If you fall into this category then I just wanna say I totally respect your preference, we are just different type of players looking for different experience from MMO :)

Since my MMO experience are only limited to FFXI, RO and about 5 hrs of FFXIV, if there're other games that already had great solution for such dilemma I would love to learn more about :)

Back in FFXI one of my biggest pet peeves as a Paladin was to wear some ugly helmet that completely cover my head/face... So you can imagine how thrilled I was when I got the AF/Relic headpiece :P and fortunately with the game being relatively new (late 04) at the time, I never really got any complaints on wearing "sub-optimal" AF headgears even during Dynamis/Sky, etc... Even though I didn't take it to the extreme and refuse to wear any armor with non-matching colors, I did do my best to avoid wearing all armors just with best stats (especially if it looks ****-ugly when put together), and try to piece together different gear pieces that "looks right" + with decent stats...

What I also don't like about the gear trend in FFXI is that everyone almost always wear the same armor/clothing compare to other players who are in the same level range... This is especially true for pre lvl 60s.... so when you are in a 6 player PT, 80% of the time you would see melee class in one type of gear, and healer/spell caster all in the same clothing... FFXI does offer different options, but usually a few certain gears are so just so much better compare to the rest (and not hard to get) so people just stick with it...

At higher levels due to the fact that some gears are just harder to obtain + not all sets provide optimal stats, we see a bit more varieties in what people wear.. although the drawback of it is that we tend to see some really bad-looking gear combinations... I remember one time in Dynamis I felt like I was in a circus full of clowns with outfits that's just.. unbearable to look at.. (>.<;)

For a semi-casual player like me who really like to immerse myself into this fantasy world, having to see everyone wearing the same gears in different level range + odd-looking gears with polar opposite color schemes... just kinda turns me off and reminds me that "I'm just playing a game with bunch of people who just want to compete and/or be the best..."

I always wonder if its doable for a MMO to come up with a system that allows you to wear the gear you like + having the stats you prefer... So maybe instead of armors and clothings with set stats attached to it.. we get armor/equipment with no stats at all (well maybe just the basic DEF), then we can purchase/upgrade gems or crystals with stat bonus/modifiers that we can infuse into the gear we like.... We can still set level restrictions to armor/equipment so we won't see a level 5 gladiator wearing a shiny plate armor standing right next to a level 50 gladiator wearing the exact same thing... and for each level range there will be a wide selection of armor/gears that you can choose from...

Or perhaps just allowing players to dye their gears will be more realistic/good place to start?


Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:01pm by Yumiechan

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:03pm by Yumiechan
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#2 Jan 14 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think gear dye would have been the best way to do it, rather than separate recipes for each item of each color.

I've been one to wear brown boots, subligar, a purple harness, and brown gloves (THF) or blue and white pants, metal mail, red and white gloves, pointy hat (melee WHM) if that's what it took to get the best stats.

I'll pick stats over looks any day, but I will gladly admit that if I could match and also have good stats, I'd do it.
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#3 Jan 14 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Yumiechan wrote:
Since my MMO experience are only limited to FFXI, RO and about 5 hrs of FFXIV, if there're other games that already had great solution for such dilemma I would love to learn more about :)

I always wonder if its doable for a MMO to come up with a system that allows you to wear the gear you like + having the stats you prefer... So maybe instead of armors and clothings with set stats attached to it.. we get armor/equipment with no stats at all (well maybe just the basic DEF), then we can purchase/upgrade gems or crystals with stat bonus/modifiers that we can infuse into the gear we like.... We can still set level restrictions to armor/equipment so we won't see a level 5 gladiator wearing a shiny plate armor standing right next to a level 50 gladiator wearing the exact same thing... and for each level range there will be a wide selection of armor/gears that you can choose from...

Or perhaps just allowing players to dye their gears will be more realistic/good place to start?


IIRC, Aion has a system in place that allows you to make a piece of armor look like another piece, yet it retains its stats, so you could wear the best armor in the game and have it look like some low-level set. The problem is that it screws with character silhouettes; that is, the person you think has horrible armor is secretly wearing the best stuff, but you'd never know unless you were able to inspect them.
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#4 Jan 14 2011 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's an interesting idea... And obviously they couldn't incorporate this into FFXIV because it's too late, but I just thought it would be cool...

Let's say that all the gear in the game... robes, hats, gloves, shoes, etc... NO GEAR has stats. No def, no bonuses, no nothing. It just looks like what it looks like and is a plain white.

Then the gear has slots in it that you put... let's call them "rocks" in.

So any given piece of armor would have one slot for a color rock (red rock turns the gear red, blue rock turns it blue, checker rock turns the gear a checker pattern, etc).

Then the armor will have a number of slots for attribute rocks. Let's say that every headpiece has two, every piece of body armor has four, etc... regardless of a cloth robe or an elaborate wizard robe or a piece of leather armor or a full plate breastplate... all of them have EXACTLY the same amount of slots so that statistically, there is NO difference between them if they have no rocks in them.

Now each rock that you can use:

1) Can be inserted or removed an unlimited number of times (so you could take a rock out to resell it, trade it, or put it in another piece of gear)
2) Has a level limit on it (To equip a piece of gear, you must be below the required level determined by the number of rocks in it)
3) Has some sort of stat or buff on it (say +5 MP or +2 STR or something)

So let's say a mage could use a robe, put in a blue rock, a +3 INT rock, a +10 MP rock, and a +5% Ice Damage rock. Now he has a blue robe that gives him 3 INT, 10 MP and 5% ice damage.

Say the mage wants to switch to healer, he takes out the +3 INT rock and replaces it with a +3 MND rock and replaces his +5% Ice Damage rock with a +5% cure power rock. And if he wants, he can take out the blue rock and replace it with a purple rock and now his robe is purple.

Or an archer could wear a leather hat that has a light green rock, +2 AGI rock, and +1 STR rock. He now has a green hat that gives him 2 AGI and 1 STR. If he switches to fighter, he can take out the +2 AGI rock and replace it with a +2 STR rock and now he has +3 STR on a light green hat.

Of course as I mentioned, every rock will increase the required level to use an item. So if that +3 STR hat requires level 10 and the fighter is only level 6, he can take the +2 STR rock out and it decreases the level required to wear it (since it only gives +1 STR now)

I think this kind of system would be awesome because it would allow players to look however they wanted to look and still have good stats. The downside is that it makes getting gear less fun, but you could make it so that there are common rocks, uncommon rocks, rare rocks.

Let's say that in the following, item level refers to "level required to equip"

Common: +3 STR (+9 Item level)
Uncommon: +3 STR (+8 Item level)
Rare: +4 STR (+7 Item level)

Common: +15 HP (+3 Item level)
Uncommon: +25 HP (+3 Item level)
Rare: +30 HP (+2 Item level)

So let's say we have a metal helmet with two slots. We could put in both common rocks and you have a hat that requires level 12 to wear and gives +3 STR and +25 HP. Or you could put in the uncommon STR stone and rare HP stone and you have a helmet that requires level 10 to wear and gives +3 STR and +30 HP.

This makes the rocks themselves the actual "gear" and the -actual- gear is just a facade that, with the right colored stones, can look however you want it to.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
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#5 Jan 14 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Quanta wrote:
Yumiechan wrote:
Since my MMO experience are only limited to FFXI, RO and about 5 hrs of FFXIV, if there're other games that already had great solution for such dilemma I would love to learn more about :)

I always wonder if its doable for a MMO to come up with a system that allows you to wear the gear you like + having the stats you prefer... So maybe instead of armors and clothings with set stats attached to it.. we get armor/equipment with no stats at all (well maybe just the basic DEF), then we can purchase/upgrade gems or crystals with stat bonus/modifiers that we can infuse into the gear we like.... We can still set level restrictions to armor/equipment so we won't see a level 5 gladiator wearing a shiny plate armor standing right next to a level 50 gladiator wearing the exact same thing... and for each level range there will be a wide selection of armor/gears that you can choose from...

Or perhaps just allowing players to dye their gears will be more realistic/good place to start?


IIRC, Aion has a system in place that allows you to make a piece of armor look like another piece, yet it retains its stats, so you could wear the best armor in the game and have it look like some low-level set. The problem is that it screws with character silhouettes; that is, the person you think has horrible armor is secretly wearing the best stuff, but you'd never know unless you were able to inspect them.

I have been toying with a similar idea recently, but in reverse. Rather than making any armor look like another piece of armor, allow players to create "templates" of stats, based on gear, then apply those templates to other gear (at the loss of the second piece of gear's stats). From a design perspective, this has two potential advantages. For one, you can charge players for the templating procedure if you need to take currency out of circulation (which, in turn gives the developers more valves by which to tune the economy if they want to take that route). For another, it gives developers another way to keep players playing (and subscriptions flowing). If players need to get both the stats they want, and the gear to put them on - depending on how well the developers balance and tune the work load - it could potentially double the amount of work to have a "perfect" gear set.
Mikhalia wrote:
Here's an interesting idea... And obviously they couldn't incorporate this into FFXIV because it's too late, but I just thought it would be cool...

Let's say that all the gear in the game... robes, hats, gloves, shoes, etc... NO GEAR has stats. No def, no bonuses, no nothing. It just looks like what it looks like and is a plain white.

Then the gear has slots in it that you put... let's call them "rocks" in.

FFXI actually had a system similar to this, but the developers were clearly too scared of braking something (balance wise) because all of the "rocks" were far too restrictive, and ended up making the system a total mess. It's not that it can't be done, but it's definitely something you have to be careful while implementing to not go too far, but still give players freedom.

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:36pm by Hulan
#6 Jan 14 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
Quanta wrote:
Yumiechan wrote:
Since my MMO experience are only limited to FFXI, RO and about 5 hrs of FFXIV, if there're other games that already had great solution for such dilemma I would love to learn more about :)

I always wonder if its doable for a MMO to come up with a system that allows you to wear the gear you like + having the stats you prefer... So maybe instead of armors and clothings with set stats attached to it.. we get armor/equipment with no stats at all (well maybe just the basic DEF), then we can purchase/upgrade gems or crystals with stat bonus/modifiers that we can infuse into the gear we like.... We can still set level restrictions to armor/equipment so we won't see a level 5 gladiator wearing a shiny plate armor standing right next to a level 50 gladiator wearing the exact same thing... and for each level range there will be a wide selection of armor/gears that you can choose from...

Or perhaps just allowing players to dye their gears will be more realistic/good place to start?


IIRC, Aion has a system in place that allows you to make a piece of armor look like another piece, yet it retains its stats, so you could wear the best armor in the game and have it look like some low-level set. The problem is that it screws with character silhouettes; that is, the person you think has horrible armor is secretly wearing the best stuff, but you'd never know unless you were able to inspect them.

I have been toying with a similar idea recently, but in reverse. Rather than making any armor look like another piece of armor, allow players to create "templates" of states, based on gear, then apply those templates to other gear (at the loss of the second piece of gear's stats). From a design perspective, this has two potential advantages. For one, you can charge players for the templating procedure if you need to take currency out of circulation (which, in turn gives the developers more valves by which to tune the economy if they want to take that route). For another, it gives developers another way to keep players playing (and subscriptions flowing). If players need to get both the stats they want, and the gear to put them on - depending on how well the developers balance and tune the work load - it could potentially double the amount of work to have a "perfect" gear set.
Mikhalia wrote:
Here's an interesting idea... And obviously they couldn't incorporate this into FFXIV because it's too late, but I just thought it would be cool...

Let's say that all the gear in the game... robes, hats, gloves, shoes, etc... NO GEAR has stats. No def, no bonuses, no nothing. It just looks like what it looks like and is a plain white.

Then the gear has slots in it that you put... let's call them "rocks" in.

FFXI actually had a system similar to this, but the developers were clearly too scared of braking something (balance wise) because all of the "rocks" were far too restrictive, and ended up making the system a total mess. It's not that it can't be done, but it's definitely something you have to be careful while implementing to not go too far, but still give players freedom.


Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:35pm by Hulan


If you're talking about evoliths, that's kinda the idea, but not exactly. WoW had gems as well, and I'm sure other games have used similar systems. The difference is that you're adding stats to a base piece of gear that has slots in it.

In my proposed system, the gear itself is a blank canvas with no stats. A sword that deals 0 damage, a robe that has 0 armor value, and everything is just plain white. They don't get any stats until you add rocks to them.
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#7 Jan 14 2011 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I'll pick stats over looks any day, but I will gladly admit that if I could match and also have good stats, I'd do it.


I always type "Stats > Looks" in LS chat, often directed at a few people in particular. I think I'd include status symbol items in there too. Not all of the vintage gear is that great looking, but it's "vintage!" I remember wearing my stained chef's apron and frayed chef's belt when they were optimal for my cooking level and I'd often hear "Why don't you vintage those? Want me to vintage the belt?" Because then they'd be r36!!Smiley: lol

I think this game offers a bit more customization in certain situations. There's quite a few gears(and in different colors) within a rank range that are similar in stats to choose from. In other cases not so much. Not everyone as class A @ rank B has to wear matching uniforms to be accepted in XIV, but I think many would like to see lots more options and customization...
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#8 Jan 14 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Here's an interesting idea... And obviously they couldn't incorporate this into FFXIV because it's too late, but I just thought it would be cool...

Let's say that all the gear in the game... robes, hats, gloves, shoes, etc... NO GEAR has stats. No def, no bonuses, no nothing. It just looks like what it looks like and is a plain white.

Then the gear has slots in it that you put... let's call them "rocks" in.

So any given piece of armor would have one slot for a color rock (red rock turns the gear red, blue rock turns it blue, checker rock turns the gear a checker pattern, etc).

Then the armor will have a number of slots for attribute rocks. Let's say that every headpiece has two, every piece of body armor has four, etc... regardless of a cloth robe or an elaborate wizard robe or a piece of leather armor or a full plate breastplate... all of them have EXACTLY the same amount of slots so that statistically, there is NO difference between them if they have no rocks in them.

Now each rock that you can use:

1) Can be inserted or removed an unlimited number of times (so you could take a rock out to resell it, trade it, or put it in another piece of gear)
2) Has a level limit on it (To equip a piece of gear, you must be below the required level determined by the number of rocks in it)
3) Has some sort of stat or buff on it (say +5 MP or +2 STR or something)

So let's say a mage could use a robe, put in a blue rock, a +3 INT rock, a +10 MP rock, and a +5% Ice Damage rock. Now he has a blue robe that gives him 3 INT, 10 MP and 5% ice damage.

Say the mage wants to switch to healer, he takes out the +3 INT rock and replaces it with a +3 MND rock and replaces his +5% Ice Damage rock with a +5% cure power rock. And if he wants, he can take out the blue rock and replace it with a purple rock and now his robe is purple.

Or an archer could wear a leather hat that has a light green rock, +2 AGI rock, and +1 STR rock. He now has a green hat that gives him 2 AGI and 1 STR. If he switches to fighter, he can take out the +2 AGI rock and replace it with a +2 STR rock and now he has +3 STR on a light green hat.

Of course as I mentioned, every rock will increase the required level to use an item. So if that +3 STR hat requires level 10 and the fighter is only level 6, he can take the +2 STR rock out and it decreases the level required to wear it (since it only gives +1 STR now)

I think this kind of system would be awesome because it would allow players to look however they wanted to look and still have good stats. The downside is that it makes getting gear less fun, but you could make it so that there are common rocks, uncommon rocks, rare rocks.

Let's say that in the following, item level refers to "level required to equip"

Common: +3 STR (+9 Item level)
Uncommon: +3 STR (+8 Item level)
Rare: +4 STR (+7 Item level)

Common: +15 HP (+3 Item level)
Uncommon: +25 HP (+3 Item level)
Rare: +30 HP (+2 Item level)

So let's say we have a metal helmet with two slots. We could put in both common rocks and you have a hat that requires level 12 to wear and gives +3 STR and +25 HP. Or you could put in the uncommon STR stone and rare HP stone and you have a helmet that requires level 10 to wear and gives +3 STR and +30 HP.

This makes the rocks themselves the actual "gear" and the -actual- gear is just a facade that, with the right colored stones, can look however you want it to.


This system seems pretty much like the system eve online has in place where you have a ship then add modules to it to make it more effective


Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:44pm by Rankin657
#9 Jan 14 2011 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rankin657 wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Here's an interesting idea... And obviously they couldn't incorporate this into FFXIV because it's too late, but I just thought it would be cool...

Let's say that all the gear in the game... robes, hats, gloves, shoes, etc... NO GEAR has stats. No def, no bonuses, no nothing. It just looks like what it looks like and is a plain white.

Then the gear has slots in it that you put... let's call them "rocks" in.

So any given piece of armor would have one slot for a color rock (red rock turns the gear red, blue rock turns it blue, checker rock turns the gear a checker pattern, etc).

Then the armor will have a number of slots for attribute rocks. Let's say that every headpiece has two, every piece of body armor has four, etc... regardless of a cloth robe or an elaborate wizard robe or a piece of leather armor or a full plate breastplate... all of them have EXACTLY the same amount of slots so that statistically, there is NO difference between them if they have no rocks in them.

Now each rock that you can use:

1) Can be inserted or removed an unlimited number of times (so you could take a rock out to resell it, trade it, or put it in another piece of gear)
2) Has a level limit on it (To equip a piece of gear, you must be below the required level determined by the number of rocks in it)
3) Has some sort of stat or buff on it (say +5 MP or +2 STR or something)

So let's say a mage could use a robe, put in a blue rock, a +3 INT rock, a +10 MP rock, and a +5% Ice Damage rock. Now he has a blue robe that gives him 3 INT, 10 MP and 5% ice damage.

Say the mage wants to switch to healer, he takes out the +3 INT rock and replaces it with a +3 MND rock and replaces his +5% Ice Damage rock with a +5% cure power rock. And if he wants, he can take out the blue rock and replace it with a purple rock and now his robe is purple.

Or an archer could wear a leather hat that has a light green rock, +2 AGI rock, and +1 STR rock. He now has a green hat that gives him 2 AGI and 1 STR. If he switches to fighter, he can take out the +2 AGI rock and replace it with a +2 STR rock and now he has +3 STR on a light green hat.

Of course as I mentioned, every rock will increase the required level to use an item. So if that +3 STR hat requires level 10 and the fighter is only level 6, he can take the +2 STR rock out and it decreases the level required to wear it (since it only gives +1 STR now)

I think this kind of system would be awesome because it would allow players to look however they wanted to look and still have good stats. The downside is that it makes getting gear less fun, but you could make it so that there are common rocks, uncommon rocks, rare rocks.

Let's say that in the following, item level refers to "level required to equip"

Common: +3 STR (+9 Item level)
Uncommon: +3 STR (+8 Item level)
Rare: +4 STR (+7 Item level)

Common: +15 HP (+3 Item level)
Uncommon: +25 HP (+3 Item level)
Rare: +30 HP (+2 Item level)

So let's say we have a metal helmet with two slots. We could put in both common rocks and you have a hat that requires level 12 to wear and gives +3 STR and +25 HP. Or you could put in the uncommon STR stone and rare HP stone and you have a helmet that requires level 10 to wear and gives +3 STR and +30 HP.

This makes the rocks themselves the actual "gear" and the -actual- gear is just a facade that, with the right colored stones, can look however you want it to.


This system seems pretty much like the systel eve online has in plase where you have a ship then add modules to it to make it more effective


It's similar, but even in Eve, the base ship type still factors into it. Can't really do anything to a Titan that would make it as nimble as an Ares. And to be honest, that's a good thing, because that would just be... way wrong.

So yeah, it's the general concept but the main selling point of the system I'm advocating is that the base armor has no variance. If you're wearing light leather or a robe or a thick battleplate, so long as the rocks are the same, there is no difference besides functionality.
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#10 Jan 14 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Default
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but wouldn't plate armor still have better protection then leather?
#11 Jan 14 2011 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Rankin657 wrote:
but wouldn't plate armor still have better protection then leather?


Logically, and in reality one would assume so. In this system, no.

Let's say you have a piece of body armor, whether it's a robe or leather vest or light plate or chain mail.
- Slot for color
- Slot for a defense rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock

So a robe with a +5 Def rock would be 5 Def and a light plate with a +5 def rock would also be 5 Def.

I know that it doesn't make logical sense in the scope of "realism", but in this matter we allow players more of a gear choice.

It could always be balanced by having heavy classes (like warrior, paladin) to have a higher inert defense value than classes like mages and healers. But ultimately, a warrior in leather armor or a warrior in plate armor would have the same defense if they used the exact same rocks.
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Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#12 Jan 14 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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9,526 posts
I like your idea Mik but think it would be better if the gear did have some base stats and limitations - because it is actually nice to know what the **** class people are by looking at them to a certain extent anyway... but it would be cool if you could still add strength to a mage robe or what not
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#13 Jan 14 2011 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Rankin657 wrote:
but wouldn't plate armor still have better protection then leather?


Logically, and in reality one would assume so. In this system, no.

Let's say you have a piece of body armor, whether it's a robe or leather vest or light plate or chain mail.
- Slot for color
- Slot for a defense rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock
- Slot for a stat/attribute rock

So a robe with a +5 Def rock would be 5 Def and a light plate with a +5 def rock would also be 5 Def.

I know that it doesn't make logical sense in the scope of "realism", but in this matter we allow players more of a gear choice.

It could always be balanced by having heavy classes (like warrior, paladin) to have a higher inert defense value than classes like mages and healers. But ultimately, a warrior in leather armor or a warrior in plate armor would have the same defense if they used the exact same rocks.


I just have this image in my head of a Miqo'te in a string bikini having more defensive power than a character in full plate armor.

Strangely, I am okay with this.
____________________________
WoW - Andorhal
Darkkiwi - 85 Gnome Unholy Death Knight - <Flaming Bunnies>
Lightkiwi - 72 Gnome Disc Priest - <Flaming Bunnies>
Kwanita - 82 Gnome Frost Mage - <Flaming Bunnies>
Maglyn - 81 Gnome Protection Warrior - <Flaming Bunnies>


Don't play that game anymore. :P
#14 Jan 14 2011 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Quanta wrote:
[quote=Mikhalia the Picky]
I just have this image in my head of a Miqo'te in a string bikini having more defensive power than a character in full plate armor.

Strangely, I am okay with this.


I <3 Mikhalia's idea too! Though Quanta also brought up a good point above... and for me no I would not want to see all female characters running in their undies/bikinis, though I know a lot of gentlemen here may disagree with me eh he...




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#15 Jan 14 2011 at 2:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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11,539 posts
Quanta wrote:
I just have this image in my head of a Miqo'te in a string bikini having more defensive power than a character in full plate armor.

Strangely, I am okay with this.


Screenshot
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#16 Jan 14 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
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DCU tackled this, i guess cause people want their heros/villains to look how they want them to, while still getting upgrades. How that works is you unlock styles that come with gears, and you can equip styles and gear independently. I think thats going a bit too far for most games, but I thought I'd bring it up. What I would like, and I think this is doable, is that if you're wearing a couple pieces from a gear set, you can have the rest of your pieces appear at that set.
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#17 Jan 14 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
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I believe there should be no religion in MMOs
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#18 Jan 14 2011 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
I believe there should be no religion in MMOs


Aesthetic, not Ascetic.
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#19 Jan 14 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
I believe there should be no religion in MMOs


Aesthetic, not Ascetic.

I really hate to say it, but I think this may win post of the month for me. Simple, short, but to the point.
#20 Jan 14 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
I believe there should be no religion in MMOs


Aesthetic, not Ascetic.

I really hate to say it, but I think this may win post of the month for me. Simple, short, but to the point.


I'm good for that level of quality once every fifty posts or so.
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#21 Jan 14 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Yumiechan wrote:
I always wonder if its doable for a MMO to come up with a system that allows you to wear the gear you like + having the stats you prefer... So maybe instead of armors and clothings with set stats attached to it.. we get armor/equipment with no stats at all (well maybe just the basic DEF), then we can purchase/upgrade gems or crystals with stat bonus/modifiers that we can infuse into the gear we like.... We can still set level restrictions to armor/equipment so we won't see a level 5 gladiator wearing a shiny plate armor standing right next to a level 50 gladiator wearing the exact same thing... and for each level range there will be a wide selection of armor/gears that you can choose from...

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:01pm by Yumiechan

Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:03pm by Yumiechan



I think what best describes what you are looking for is in a game called Runes of Magic with their trasmute feature. It would allow you to take a piece of gear with really great stats, but perhaps looked crappy to you and you could then "transmute" all the stats of said gear onto say a string bikini as someone here suggested. I loved that feature as you could really change the way you looked or keep the same look in a sense forever by just changing the stats on your favorite item.

Thing is with FFXI not so much XIV you really can tell what each persons class/role is based on what gear they have on. Perhaps that is what SE wants to keep, but as it is now everyone can wear whatever they want so this might be a good system to build upon.

I know I would like to choose which gear based on looks if I could also have the stats.
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#22 Jan 14 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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LyleVertigo wrote:
I believe there should be no religion in MMOs

wow, just wow
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#23 Jan 14 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jefro420 wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
I believe there should be no religion in MMOs

wow, just wow


There is no religion in WoW; what are you talking about, you silly person?
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#24 Jan 14 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Decent
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SeyIniuriae wrote:


I think what best describes what you are looking for is in a game called Runes of Magic with their trasmute feature. It would allow you to take a piece of gear with really great stats, but perhaps looked crappy to you and you could then "transmute" all the stats of said gear onto say a string bikini as someone here suggested. I loved that feature as you could really change the way you looked or keep the same look in a sense forever by just changing the stats on your favorite item.


Thank you SeyIniriae this is good to know! (Also thank you Quanta for mentioning Aion!)

Awww wouldn't be wonderful if we are given such flexibility in customizing our own gears in FFXIV? afterall a lot of people agree that character details/graphics is one of the major upsides for this game... might as well give us the freedom to make our FFXIV characters even more of an "eye-candy-of-our-own" to enjoy at XD


SeyIniuriae wrote:

I know I would like to choose which gear based on looks if I could also have the stats.


So I'm not alone on this... yay \^^/
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#25 Jan 14 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Here's an interesting idea... And obviously they couldn't incorporate this into FFXIV because it's too late, but I just thought it would be cool...

Let's say that all the gear in the game... robes, hats, gloves, shoes, etc... NO GEAR has stats. No def, no bonuses, no nothing. It just looks like what it looks like and is a plain white.

Then the gear has slots in it that you put... let's call them "rocks" in.

So any given piece of armor would have one slot for a color rock (red rock turns the gear red, blue rock turns it blue, checker rock turns the gear a checker pattern, etc).

Then the armor will have a number of slots for attribute rocks. Let's say that every headpiece has two, every piece of body armor has four, etc... regardless of a cloth robe or an elaborate wizard robe or a piece of leather armor or a full plate breastplate... all of them have EXACTLY the same amount of slots so that statistically, there is NO difference between them if they have no rocks in them.

Now each rock that you can use:

1) Can be inserted or removed an unlimited number of times (so you could take a rock out to resell it, trade it, or put it in another piece of gear)
2) Has a level limit on it (To equip a piece of gear, you must be below the required level determined by the number of rocks in it)
3) Has some sort of stat or buff on it (say +5 MP or +2 STR or something)

So let's say a mage could use a robe, put in a blue rock, a +3 INT rock, a +10 MP rock, and a +5% Ice Damage rock. Now he has a blue robe that gives him 3 INT, 10 MP and 5% ice damage.

Say the mage wants to switch to healer, he takes out the +3 INT rock and replaces it with a +3 MND rock and replaces his +5% Ice Damage rock with a +5% cure power rock. And if he wants, he can take out the blue rock and replace it with a purple rock and now his robe is purple.

Or an archer could wear a leather hat that has a light green rock, +2 AGI rock, and +1 STR rock. He now has a green hat that gives him 2 AGI and 1 STR. If he switches to fighter, he can take out the +2 AGI rock and replace it with a +2 STR rock and now he has +3 STR on a light green hat.

Of course as I mentioned, every rock will increase the required level to use an item. So if that +3 STR hat requires level 10 and the fighter is only level 6, he can take the +2 STR rock out and it decreases the level required to wear it (since it only gives +1 STR now)

I think this kind of system would be awesome because it would allow players to look however they wanted to look and still have good stats. The downside is that it makes getting gear less fun, but you could make it so that there are common rocks, uncommon rocks, rare rocks.

Let's say that in the following, item level refers to "level required to equip"

Common: +3 STR (+9 Item level)
Uncommon: +3 STR (+8 Item level)
Rare: +4 STR (+7 Item level)

Common: +15 HP (+3 Item level)
Uncommon: +25 HP (+3 Item level)
Rare: +30 HP (+2 Item level)

So let's say we have a metal helmet with two slots. We could put in both common rocks and you have a hat that requires level 12 to wear and gives +3 STR and +25 HP. Or you could put in the uncommon STR stone and rare HP stone and you have a helmet that requires level 10 to wear and gives +3 STR and +30 HP.

This makes the rocks themselves the actual "gear" and the -actual- gear is just a facade that, with the right colored stones, can look however you want it to.


A new, creative, and good suggestion... on my video game forums?

The increase in level requirement for different "rocks;" the fact that colour-rocks do not compete with stat-rocks; different/more detailed models as one progresses; I like it, in general, I really do. We could even have rare-patterned rocks for instant "rare recognizability," or unique models upon which to infuse generic-coloured rocks (like a one-of-a-kind Black Mage style hat for Class-specific gear)!

I think that I would miss the ability to see a certain piece and know immediately "ah, ra-pa-ree harness" or "kitty pants," but I suppose that would be a worthwhile price to pay to rid my life of coral-coloured subligaria, golden-yellow ********** masks, and crimson duckbilled sandals.
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#26 Jan 14 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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KaneKitty wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
stuff


A new, creative, and good suggestion... on my video game forums?

The increase in level requirement for different "rocks;" the fact that colour-rocks do not compete with stat-rocks; different/more detailed models as one progresses; I like it, in general, I really do. We could even have rare-patterned rocks for instant "rare recognizability," or unique models upon which to infuse generic-coloured rocks (like a one-of-a-kind Black Mage style hat for Class-specific gear)!

I think that I would miss the ability to see a certain piece and know immediately "ah, ra-pa-ree harness" or "kitty pants," but I suppose that would be a worthwhile price to pay to rid my life of coral-coloured subligaria, golden-yellow ********** masks, and crimson duckbilled sandals.


Yeah, the main two downsides I see to such a system are:

1) As you said, you lose the recognizability of knowing "Hey, that's a ____" as soon as you see gear.
2) Rocks (or runes or glyphs or gems or patterns or whatever you want to end up calling them) are less exciting to get than gear. They just are. You miss out on that moment of awesome when your character blinks out and changes equipment.

If you can tolerate the fact that you need to check/examine people to see their gear, and you can live with rocks (or whatever) as the main source of your stat bonuses; that you're killing the dragon for a rare STR rock or a rare VIT rock as opposed to a helm or a shield, then you end up with a system where not only are your looks totally customizable, but your gear's stats are too!

How many times have you seen a piece in a game and thought "Well I like the STR and DEX but this AGI is useless to me" or "The attack power is cool, but what the **** do I need +2 INT on a great axe for?" Well now you don't have to worry about it! Balance your gear as needed for accuracy and attack or for spell accuracy and damage and worry less about the whole "Well I need to lot that piece of armor because I don't have a haste piece for my legs" or "I need to save up for that ugly *** turban that I will be wearing forever"?

I really think this whole idea is genius. I wish I could pitch it to someone and see it go somewhere. I think that in the right game, such a system could be awesome.
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#27 Jan 14 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
worry less about the whole "Well I need to lot that piece of armor because I don't have a haste piece for my legs" or "I need to save up for that ugly *** turban that I will be wearing forever"?


Yeah, I remember that day: every coin I traded was bittersweet, then my triumph came as a whimper when I put the thing atop my head; I put my Goblin Coif back on until I had to party. (~ _ ~ )
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#28 Jan 14 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
Rankin657 wrote:

This system seems pretty much like the system EVE Online has in place where you have a ship then add modules to it to make it more effective.
Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:44pm by Rankin657


Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

It's similar, but even in Eve, the base ship type still factors into it. Can't really do anything to a Titan that would make it as nimble as an Ares. And to be honest, that's a good thing, because that would just be... way wrong.


I believe they may also be referring to the Strategic Cruiser class of ships in EVE Online Mikhalia, which is similar to the idea that you have with rocks - you get a base hull which can't fly/attack by itself, and you assemble the ship by putting in 5 modules of your choice to determine the propulsion, attack systems, capacitor, etc. Each of these 5 modules has 4 variations per faction, and you can mix and match these so long as each module corresponds to the faction ship.

Once you do that, then you can go into your usual weapon/afterburner/rigging equipment...

In regards to the OP's idea, the customization in this game is achieved, if somewhat to the chagrin of others, by the fact that any piece of equipment can be equipped by anyone, albeit with lower stats if the character in question was lower than the optimal rank. I myself would prefer a system like ROs where a dye could change your hair color, or, if you were on a private server, change the color palette of your character's armor...I myself personally hate the shoes that favor Pugilists since they only work well with certain pieces of gear.

With the way the crafting system is implemented though, a customization method where slots for armor using cards or gems would not detract from the overall feel of the game, so Mik, your idea is very sound in that respect :-)


Edited, Jan 14th 2011 7:26pm by GuiltyBoomerang
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#29 Jan 14 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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GuiltyBoomerang wrote:
Rankin657 wrote:

This system seems pretty much like the system EVE Online has in place where you have a ship then add modules to it to make it more effective.
Edited, Jan 14th 2011 2:44pm by Rankin657


Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

It's similar, but even in Eve, the base ship type still factors into it. Can't really do anything to a Titan that would make it as nimble as an Ares. And to be honest, that's a good thing, because that would just be... way wrong.


I believe they may also be referring to the Strategic Cruiser class of ships in EVE Online Mikhalia, which is similar to the idea that you have with rocks - you get a base hull which can't fly/attack by itself, and you assemble the ship by putting in 5 modules of your choice to determine the propulsion, attack systems, capacitor, etc. Each of these 5 modules has 4 variations per faction, and you can mix and match these so long as each module corresponds to the faction ship.

Once you do that, then you can go into your usual weapon/afterburner/rigging equipment...

In regards to the OP's idea, the customization in this game is achieved, if somewhat to the chagrin of others, by the fact that any piece of equipment can be equipped by anyone, albeit with lower stats if the character in question was lower than the optimal rank. I myself would prefer a system like ROs where a dye could change your hair color, or, if you were on a private server, change the color palette of your character's armor...I myself personally hate the shoes that favor Pugilists since they only work well with certain pieces of gear.

With the way the crafting system is implemented though, a customization method where slots for armor using cards or gems would not detract from the overall feel of the game, so Mik, your idea is very sound in that respect :-)


Edited, Jan 14th 2011 7:26pm by GuiltyBoomerang


I didn't know about those. I learned something new today.

But yeah, I think that "rocks" would kill this game because it would really hurt crafters since you'd need to buy less gear and more rocks. Whatever craft(s) made rocks would thrive, but the classes that make the actual armor (clothcrafter, leatherworker, etc) would suffer.

For the rocks idea to work, the game would have to be designed with crafts as a side thing like most games have it. Since FFXIV is trying to peg itself as a game where crafting is a viable non-combat form of advancement, they tread a thin line in making sure they don't make any major changes that would hurt crafters. I mean, I personally don't like crafting, but statistically speaking, more of the classes are crafters than anything else, so any changes that cause crafting to be of minimal value and use would kill the game as we know it and **** off a lot of people.
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#30 Jan 14 2011 at 11:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Jefro420 wrote:
LyleVertigo wrote:
I believe there should be no religion in MMOs

wow, just wow


You guys know he's trolling you right? Lyle isn't an idiot.
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#31 Jan 15 2011 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Here's an interesting idea... And obviously they couldn't incorporate this into FFXIV because it's too late, but I just thought it would be cool...


This is essentially identical to an idea that I've presented many times both here, and on the feedback forums during XIV beta.

It's not too late to incorporate into XIV, either.
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#32 Jan 15 2011 at 1:32 AM Rating: Decent
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it's a good idea, but at this point (well, at all points) what this game needs is some content that really smacks the player in the face and wakes them up. i definitely think some new gear mechanics are in order, but without something big and bold, players won't come back.
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#33 Jan 15 2011 at 1:35 AM Rating: Good
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Aesthetics are the reason im both happy with and frustrated at the unisex Lalafell armors. On the one hand we have the less is more philosophy for female armors where somehow a magic bikini gives you +20 to your defense over dressing up like Robocop, which is a little over sexed for my tastes. On the other hand neither do Lalafell benefit from the more feminine gear that female characters can wear (unless everything you wear is be rose pink!).

I can see they did it because it's easier for them that way (less to model), but it's still a tad disappointing that our only feminine gear will come from specific items tailored only for girls. At the moment, those specific items are limited to underwear which isn't going to be seen anyway unless you're an exhibitionist, and still remains fairly neutral in appearance.

Steering this post back on topic a little better, there was a system in DC Universe Online BETA where you could pick your 'fashion' items from your personal collection of gear to display while still retaining the stats of your original gear. This doesn't require additional inventory space, since once you've worn an item it's added to your collection of available outfits for style purposes, and gives players some flexibility when deciding on their appearance.

A system similar to that would be nice to see in FFXIV, but it might undermine the whole crafting aspect with regards to dyeing different coloured gear. Still, I can dream.
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#34 Jan 15 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Glitterhands wrote:
A system similar to that would be nice to see in FFXIV, but it might undermine the whole crafting aspect with regards to dyeing different coloured gear. Still, I can dream.


I think the current colored system is unnecessarily cumbersome; you need parts A, B, C, D... all of the same color. You end up with having all these extra pieces just for one color of armor... it just seems silly to me. IMO, take out the extra colors and add in dyes, and make it so that you add all the plain mats together and then the dye at the end of the synth when you're making the actual product, rather than requiring all the components to be colored.
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#35 Jan 15 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Glitterhands wrote:
A system similar to that would be nice to see in FFXIV, but it might undermine the whole crafting aspect with regards to dyeing different coloured gear. Still, I can dream.


I think the current colored system is unnecessarily cumbersome; you need parts A, B, C, D... all of the same color. You end up with having all these extra pieces just for one color of armor... it just seems silly to me. IMO, take out the extra colors and add in dyes, and make it so that you add all the plain mats together and then the dye at the end of the synth when you're making the actual product, rather than requiring all the components to be colored.


I know I am risking being flamed to all **** for supporting what SE is going for with the way that dyed parts are used. But from my observations, while it is a total pain sometimes, the systems actually creates different looks for the same piece of gear and realistically speaking they way it is done now actually makes sense to me.

For example, cotton gowns (which from what I can tell I'm the only person on my server who bothers to make them for lower rank players lol) I can actually see the different parts and materials I used in the process of putting this thing together. It has an olive green outer gown and a hempen gown underneath that with some of the sleeves showing at the wrists, the taupe sheep leather strap I used is wrapped around the shoulders and sleeves on the outside coat. Also the squirrel fur trim around the edges and the bronze buckle cinching it together and the bronze throatguard at the neck I had my friend make for me.

I'm aware that the above item is overly complicated to make however I do appreciate that I can actually notice the detail of all the parts that went into the final product

If we were to go to a dye it whatever color you wanted scenario I have a few points that come to mind:

:: How will they be dyed? A NPC? Or will alchemists who make the dyes be the only ones that can do it? This would create a mess as they would advance to by far the most important crafter if we were to only be able to make base uncolored items. Also ALL of the recipes would have to be revised.

:: If we scrapped dyes entirely and went with the more unrealistic FFXI crafting system where a few parts magically becomes a very detailed Vermillion Cloak, etc. How would this be accomplished w/o destroying what we currently have.?

I like most of how the current system works, however I believe that the undyed items should use base parts across the board, as in no need for a grey leather strap to be used in your undyed hempen shirt or whatever. I also agree with Mik's idea with the stones and we can still keep a wide variety of custom colors to fit peoples personal tastes for how their character looks. However, I don't think any craft whatsoever should be part of making the stones in anyway as that would create a massive unbalance of epic proportions. The stones could be rewards from quests, leves, treasure chests and eventually NM drops.
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#36 Jan 15 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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One fix I can see working for the dying system would be instead of dying cloth, leather, etc, we dye parts.

This would by far simplify the parts market, thereby stimulating trade.
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#37 Jan 15 2011 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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Archfiend Luceo wrote:
:: How will they be dyed? A NPC? Or will alchemists who make the dyes be the only ones that can do it? This would create a mess as they would advance to by far the most important crafter if we were to only be able to make base uncolored items. Also ALL of the recipes would have to be revised.


taliph wrote:
One fix I can see working for the dying system would be instead of dying cloth, leather, etc, we dye parts.

This would by far simplify the parts market, thereby stimulating trade.


The easiest system I can think of would be to make dyes a consumable. When the dye is used, a special interface opens up that lets you select a piece of gear, and then from there the available sections that can be dyed.

As for the revision of recipes, you'd just remove the dye component.

Quote:
:: If we scrapped dyes entirely and went with the more unrealistic FFXI crafting system where a few parts magically becomes a very detailed Vermillion Cloak, etc. How would this be accomplished w/o destroying what we currently have.?


In that event, you could argue that certain recipes explicitly require the dyes (but only in final construction; the components themselves should never have to be dyed), or that certain pieces require a "magic dye" that will recolour every section at once to a pre-set pattern.
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#38 Jan 15 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Star Trek Online has a very customisable appearrence and stat thing both for character and the ships you fly around in.

When you first make your character you can pick what they wear from a large list of different uniform options, customise the colour of the main part and the trim. That outfit doesn't affect your stats in any way, and at any point in the game, you can change the appearence of the outfit when you dock at a space station. Defence and attack power and other stats come from body armour, shields, utility belts, weapons, consumables, etc. But you can choose to have them not visible.

Can customise ships heavily too. You get a new ship every time you increase in rank (every 10 levels). Ship itself has its own basic stats, speed, turning arc, etc. To change its stats, weapons etc, you insert "modules", engine, shield, different weapon types, consoles, can pick up lots just in battle, but these don't change its appearence. When you dock at a station, you can customise it to an extent. First ship you start with as an example, in the customise screen, there are 3 different ship templates, each of 4 parts. You can combine these templates in any way, the final ship will be 4 parts from any of these 3 patterns. Can also change the colour and the pattern of the colour, even the style of windows.
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